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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that by Catch Killers. We're going

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Speaker 1: to have a hard conversation. Today we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: policing through the eyes of an Aboriginal woman who spent

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Speaker 1: ten years in the Queensland Police Force, and what she

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Speaker 1: says will make people feel uncomfortable. Sometimes facing the truth

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Speaker 1: is difficult and confronting. It takes courage to speak up,

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Speaker 1: and today's guest is a courageous lady. I have a

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Speaker 1: passion for policing and indigenous issues, So when the two

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Speaker 1: are in conflict, that saddens me. Unless people like today's guest,

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Speaker 1: Veronica Gory, speak up, things won't change. I invite everyone

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Speaker 1: to sit back and listen to Veronica's story. There is

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Speaker 1: as powerful as it is inspirational, and there's a story

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Speaker 1: that needs to be told, and if it's listened to

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Speaker 1: with an open mind, it might just change some people's

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Speaker 1: view and give us a greater understanding about what it's

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Speaker 1: like to be an Indigenous woman working as a police officer.

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Speaker 1: Veronica Gory, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Gary.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm really pleased that we've finally got to got

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Speaker 1: to meet. When I started hearing about your story, I

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Speaker 1: always thought our paths would cross in some way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we've been trying to get you on for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years. You're a hard person to track down sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a bit like that.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel?

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Speaker 2: I feel really good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You get the background you've come from. I've come from,

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Speaker 1: and we're cops and here we are sitting in a

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Speaker 1: studio trying to be media people. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how today's going to go, but I

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Speaker 2: think I'll be right and if we're not, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll get there.

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Speaker 1: Well, the pressure pressures on the stuff up or my

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Speaker 1: my fault. Yeah, the reason I'm interested in your story

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Speaker 1: coming from the police. My eyes were opened up to

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Speaker 1: racism in the in the police, and we'll call it

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Speaker 1: for what it is in the police. When I first

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Speaker 1: became involved in the Barable investigation, and I put my

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Speaker 1: hand up and you know, we're going to have a

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Speaker 1: long conversation about things. But I went up to Bearable,

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Speaker 1: to the mission where three children had been murdered, and

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Speaker 1: I was ignorant about racism within the own organization, racism

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Speaker 1: within society, and ignorant about the issues that Aboriginal people

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Speaker 1: face living in an area on the outskirts of town.

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Speaker 1: And it changed my view on the world. But they

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Speaker 1: also changed me as a police officer. Do you think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of police out there that just don't

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Speaker 1: get exposed to it or don't understand it because I

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Speaker 1: went up there and naive, thinking, well, we're not really racist.

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Speaker 1: Occasionally people will make a joke about the blackfellow or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But once I realized what was going on,

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Speaker 1: I was ashamed of the person I was before I

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Speaker 1: got there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think policing all over this country, if not

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Speaker 2: the world, or like it says they have, is systemic

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Speaker 2: racism and it's deeply entrenched. So when I was at

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Speaker 2: the academy, I didn't like, I didn't hear any racial slows.

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Speaker 2: That was fine, but don't like the first week out

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Speaker 2: on general duties. It's just it's very confronting and to

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Speaker 2: hear people racially little for your own mob, it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to listen to. And as of first year Connie

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Speaker 2: was quite difficult for me to speak up because I'd

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Speaker 2: just come out of the academy. I think after this

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Speaker 2: there was also there was other police that were already

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Speaker 2: they'd been in a job for three years, and they

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Speaker 2: were too for it to come out as Aboriginal because

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Speaker 2: of that. For that reason, because of the racism and

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Speaker 2: the police. Yeah, so I actually think I accidentally brought

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Speaker 2: brought them out of the white closet, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's what I find strange because people very much

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Speaker 1: became aware as my career progressed my stance on Indigenous

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Speaker 1: issues and racism and all that, But still comments would

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Speaker 1: fly around the office that were, yeah, I'm thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: the guys you actually, yeah, you know where I stand.

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Speaker 1: You think it's appropriate to yeah, make these make these comments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it must have been hard, like say, and

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Speaker 2: that was the thing with me when I was in

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Speaker 2: a job. Each and every time I heard racial slurs

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Speaker 2: against my people, I called them out for it. I

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Speaker 2: was deemed to be difficult. I'm an angry black woman.

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Speaker 2: But when white fellows say it, it's they pay attention.

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Speaker 2: They stand up and go okay, yep, yep, they actually

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Speaker 2: listen to you. But as a black fellow, like I

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Speaker 2: was just a winging, winging black woman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you touch on an interesting point there, because I've

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Speaker 1: had to, just in my role and the stance I've

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Speaker 1: taken on things, had to articulate issues. But I'm always

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Speaker 1: mindful that it's hard for me as a white man

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Speaker 1: talking about issues that indigenous people are facing because I

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Speaker 1: haven't walked that path, and I do it as best

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Speaker 1: I can. But I'm always respectful that it's your position.

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Speaker 2: It's our life. Like each and every day we're fighting

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Speaker 2: a system and the injustices in the colony. You know,

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Speaker 2: to be watched while you go shopping, you know, surveiled

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Speaker 2: by the staff, and you know you're pre you know,

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Speaker 2: they're already preconceived that you're going to be sealing stuff

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Speaker 2: or terrible like. And as a cop, it was very

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Speaker 2: difficult too. I was always asked, so are you a

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Speaker 2: full cop, like did you go to the academy or

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Speaker 2: are you a police susan, Yeah, yeah, what, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's confronting. And my other experience in one of my

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Speaker 1: failed marriages I won't go into, but I was married

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Speaker 1: to an Aboriginal lady and what I what I found

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Speaker 1: in with the bearable communities and other communities, and there's

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Speaker 1: subtle racism that comes out. And quite often you could

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Speaker 1: be out and someone says something in the room goes

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Speaker 1: silent because they all look towards the person. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say that, but it's just in

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Speaker 1: people's nature. And that was very much in the police

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Speaker 1: Like people would say say things and I'd sort of

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Speaker 1: look at really, you're saying this. So you must have

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Speaker 1: been confronted with that time and time again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and being given that, I'm like, I've got an

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Speaker 2: olive complexion as well, so I would have been seen

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Speaker 2: as a white fellow with a deadly TN. But like

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't know any other job or career whereby.

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Speaker 2: You've got it within the first three or two to

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Speaker 2: three minutes of working for someone new, you've got to

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Speaker 2: let them know that you're Aboriginal. You know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know any other job whereby. And then I did that

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Speaker 2: strategically because I didn't want to hear racial clues about

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Speaker 2: my people.

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Speaker 1: And explaining that because people people might find that's unusual.

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Speaker 1: But I know exactly what you're saying, because I've been

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Speaker 1: in those situations with people that they get it out

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Speaker 1: very upfront.

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Speaker 2: First thing.

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Speaker 1: We say I'm Aboriginal, just to stop the comments, and.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't have to, like I'm not asking your background, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I see people as people, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: everyone's different. I guess I don't know what goes through

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Speaker 2: their mind. But I also want to go back to

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Speaker 2: the bar of Barroville murders, where I witness you with

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Speaker 2: the families and how you treated the families really sensitivity

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Speaker 2: and bringing very respectful to them and the families of

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Speaker 2: and the thing is that tore us up as a

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Speaker 2: nation watching that and hearing about the families urban what

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Speaker 2: they were going through and still going through a lot

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Speaker 2: of families are still going through it right now that

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Speaker 2: you know, we're missing women and children. As Abershinal people,

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Speaker 2: when we report a crime, like as a victim, Please

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Speaker 2: can't imagine us as victims because they're so us still

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Speaker 2: locking us up. So, for example, I know someone who's

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Speaker 2: trigger warning, always a trigger warning when I talk, who's

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Speaker 2: put in a rape complaint and the investigation, I just

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Speaker 2: know police haven't done the work. They said they couldn't

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Speaker 2: find one of the perpetrators. It took me whole or

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Speaker 2: five minutes. I'm not even in the job anymore. It

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Speaker 2: took me five minutes to locate this person. So that

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Speaker 2: tells me that they're not doing the work and they

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Speaker 2: don't take this complaint serious. And it's upsetting because as

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Speaker 2: Abershinal people, we don't call police. I know, with a

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Speaker 2: lot of other people when they have conflict in the

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Speaker 2: community or their families or out and about their first

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Speaker 2: instinct to call triples there. With Aboriginal people, we don't.

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Speaker 2: And there's good reason for that because we're always mostly

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Speaker 2: misidentified as perpetrators.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, little things like that that people, and

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Speaker 1: you explain that in very clear, articulate way people don't

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Speaker 1: understand that. People can't understand what you're talking about. Recently,

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Speaker 1: and you reference it in your second second book about

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Speaker 1: the federal parliamentary inquiry into Missing Black Women. I gave

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Speaker 1: evidence a couple of weeks of a couple of months

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Speaker 1: ago at the inquiry, and it's frightening the type of

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Speaker 1: things that how is it that these victims are forgotten?

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Speaker 1: And it really is a victim forgotten because of their race,

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Speaker 1: I call it, and it's probably a soft term for it.

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Speaker 1: And I've said this sometimes when I'm talking about this

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Speaker 1: unconscious bias that people don't even think they're racist, but

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Speaker 1: the way that they receive the information there is a bias.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe in unconscious bias. I was waiting for

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Speaker 2: you that and I was kind of thinking about that

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Speaker 2: word that that that phrase aren't phrase. I don't believe

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Speaker 2: in that. People like you've fully grown adults, okay, babies

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Speaker 2: and children. They're not born to be racist. So they're

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Speaker 2: learning it from their parents or in the.

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Speaker 1: Family about valid pints.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're not. Yeah, there's no I don't believe

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Speaker 2: in your conscious Okay, you have have you know as

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Speaker 2: an adult, you know you know the difference between right

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Speaker 2: and wrong, and you just know saying saying words that

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Speaker 2: are derogative is not right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I take it. Yeah, it does make sense. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is from your perspective, and I a dress it up,

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Speaker 1: but I take on, bore what you now.

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Speaker 2: I think with the age of criminality with your young people,

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Speaker 2: is a ten years old in this state or fourteen

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Speaker 2: for the got ten ten? Still ten? Right, They've been

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Speaker 2: convicted of crimes alleged crime at the age of ten

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Speaker 2: because they're deemed to know the difference between right and wrong.

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Speaker 2: So I fully grown asked. You know, Herry, as adult

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Speaker 2: should know the difference between right and wrong.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fair coll, fair coll. All right, Now I just

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Speaker 1: ask about the books and we'll talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: what's contained in the book. But your first book, Black

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Speaker 1: and Blue, a memoir of racism and resilience, which I

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Speaker 1: might add and correct me if I'm wrong. But the

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Speaker 1: Victorian Prize for Literature Australia's richest literary award in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two. Yeah, yep, congratulations, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And who would have thought, oh, because much of

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Speaker 2: that book was about the injustices the state government Victorian

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Speaker 2: State government did to my family. Ironically, it was a

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Speaker 2: Victorian state government funding writers funding that or prize that

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Speaker 2: I won. It's really good.

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Speaker 1: Where you're making the little difference. What inspired you to

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Speaker 1: write the book?

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Speaker 2: So initially, so after towards the end of my career

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Speaker 2: as in Queensland Place Officer, I was diagnosed with PTSD

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Speaker 2: anxiety and depression and due to the trauma, your brain

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Speaker 2: does weird and wonderful things. But I started to lose

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Speaker 2: a lot of my memory, and so I started writing,

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Speaker 2: documenting some stuff, a lot of my memories, and not

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Speaker 2: not just for my kids but future generations. And I

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Speaker 2: wished my grandmother had done this to hand down the stories,

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Speaker 2: and also as Black Fellows were the oldest living storytellers

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Speaker 2: as well, so I wanted to document what memories I

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Speaker 2: did have. Unfortunately, there weren't many good memories. For some reason,

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Speaker 2: my brain has I can't remember any good memories. I

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Speaker 2: don't recall any I'm sure there would have been, but

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Speaker 2: I just don't have any memory of it. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: and before too long I had enough for a book.

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Speaker 1: So and did you feel was it triggering in bringing

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Speaker 1: up some of the past or did you find it cathartic.

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Speaker 2: Cathartic no triggering, so yeah, very triggering.

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Speaker 1: There's some heavy stuff in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would keep me up late at night

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Speaker 2: and I had odd hours of writing as well, like

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Speaker 2: due to the memory loss. And so at two o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning, if I had a memory come to

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Speaker 2: me whilst I'll sleep, I'd get up and start writing

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Speaker 2: because I knew that I went back to sleep would

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Speaker 2: have forgotten about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Well, congratulations because I've read

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Speaker 1: the book cover the cover, and yeah, I enjoyed, enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the read. When I say enjoyed the read, it's not happy,

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Speaker 1: it's not a happy read. That's me clarify that. You'll

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Speaker 1: think I'm some with that. How are you enjoying that?

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Speaker 2: Come from that comedy?

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Speaker 1: Like you gotta laugh? I Yeah. One thing that the

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Speaker 1: barer of a community taught me was their sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: Just crack me up all the time. We're the funniest

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Speaker 1: people quite often at my expense or whoever I was

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Speaker 1: working with expense. But yeah, and they're able to laugh.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way of dealing with

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Speaker 1: adversity and tragedy and everything else that goes into play.

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Speaker 2: I think in life you choose to over laugh or crying.

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Speaker 2: We choose to laugh. Yeah, crying every day, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You could imagine that the bearerable mob. But what they

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Speaker 1: give to two white guys coming from the city up

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Speaker 1: on the mission and the ship that they used to

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Speaker 1: put on us, and it was done in good humor,

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Speaker 1: and the more they got to know us.

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Speaker 2: You really what I want to emphasize that you really

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Speaker 2: earned their respect, which is what I've seen and that's

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Speaker 2: not common. Yeah, so just it's very telling about your character.

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Speaker 1: Really, it was something special, and people often say, great

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Speaker 1: the work you did with bearable people. I got more

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Speaker 1: from them than they ever got from me. Like, they

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Speaker 1: taught me so much, they embraced me. It was like

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Speaker 1: a part of their family, and they're like part of

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Speaker 1: my family, and it's a beautiful relationship. And it taught

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Speaker 1: me so much and made me actually made me a

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Speaker 1: better person, not just a better cop. I think it

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Speaker 1: significantly changed me the path I went in policing.

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Speaker 2: But just the support they gave you too outside the

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Speaker 2: courthouse and cheering you on, and you know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: the roles were reversed. But for them to trust you

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Speaker 2: for an Aboriginal personal family to trust a white person.

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Speaker 2: It's really you know, it's very telling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it was mutual. The love that we've

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Speaker 1: got for each other, like the community and myself and

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Speaker 1: I feel part of it and on them to be

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Speaker 1: a big part of it. Got me in a bit

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Speaker 1: of trouble in the police when we marched on Parliament

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Speaker 1: a few times. But other than that and probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of other things, but no, I enjoyed it. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about you there, your your life and describe if

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Speaker 1: if someone came up to you and said, who the

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Speaker 1: hell are you? How would you describe yourself?

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Speaker 2: Oh? The first thing wasn't canob woman? Your pronouns are she?

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Speaker 1: And who?

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Speaker 2: Mother of three amazing adult children, grandmother of two burroys

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Speaker 2: four year old twins.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations, Yeah they love Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A writer, I just say I'm a writer. I don't

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Speaker 2: actually where I live, No one knows who I am.

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Speaker 1: It's really good, which I love, critically acclaimed, award winning.

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Speaker 1: You don't walk around copies of your book? No?

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Speaker 2: No? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And your childhood where'd you grow.

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Speaker 2: Up down Gippsland in eastern Victoria and then traveled a

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Speaker 2: bit with my father. Yeah, a lot.

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Speaker 1: Actually, you move moved around a lot, yeah, different places,

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Speaker 1: different places.

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Speaker 2: You went to Rockhampton and Queensland, Malnois, Alice Springs, Love

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Speaker 2: Dallas things, yeah, and parts of Victoria and like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: just moved around a lot of schools, which is yeah.

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Speaker 2: And what I want to say is we're black and blue.

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Speaker 2: A lot of abitual people will resonate with much of

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Speaker 2: what I've written, but I don't speak for everyone. I

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Speaker 2: just speak for myself.

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Speaker 1: No, that's important. A friend of mine asked me on

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Speaker 1: the weekend. I said, I was reading your book, and

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Speaker 1: how did you find it? And I said, it's heavy reading,

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Speaker 1: but I'm enjoying reading it. And I said, the thing

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Speaker 1: that saddens me, I know this is Veronica's story, but

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Speaker 1: there's so many stories like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And as you've identified this is your story, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of other people have got similar, similar stories.

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Speaker 2: I can bring and a lot of people will resonate

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Speaker 2: with that. And the difference between me and them is

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Speaker 2: that I've written about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And do you think by actually talking

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Speaker 1: about them, writing about it helps other people they understand

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Speaker 1: that they're not on their own way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think I think sometimes so with aberitual people,

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Speaker 2: we don't usually have happy and unfortunately, so I think

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Speaker 2: you know, you asked me about was a cathartic earlier,

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Speaker 2: and I said, I'm not really, But I think in

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Speaker 2: a sense that I don't talk about a lot of

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Speaker 2: the stuff that happened to me, but I wrote about it,

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Speaker 2: and so what's out now it's out of my head.

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Speaker 2: So I think, you know, if I can encourage other

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Speaker 2: people to write their experiences and not you know, stuff

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Speaker 2: that they've never told anyone before.

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Speaker 1: You touched on your grandparents' lives and you and I

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Speaker 1: see that in indigenous communities there's generational trauma that can

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Speaker 1: be passed out and people don't understand that. I know,

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Speaker 1: people when they've challenged me if I'm talking about something,

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Speaker 1: they'll gave But that was in the past. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen now. But there's intergenerational trauma that gets passed down

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Speaker 1: in communities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing is it's still happening now though it's

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Speaker 2: not that you don't go and that's what I want

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Speaker 2: to would the George Floyd matter as well in the US,

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Speaker 2: so a lot of non Indigenous people in this country went.

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Speaker 2: When they saw the visuals of it on television or whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're gasping and oh my goodness, that's terrible.

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Speaker 2: What they don't know is it's happening right here in

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Speaker 2: this country. But they, for some reason, they turn a

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Speaker 2: blonde eye. And that's why I've always encourage people not

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Speaker 2: to become martyrs, but just start filming. And it's not

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Speaker 2: a black and white thing. It's just filming when when

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Speaker 2: you see cops harming people in the community. But also

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get them in trouble, like them arrested,

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Speaker 2: but let them know that you are filming, and tell

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Speaker 2: the person who's been assaulted or been harmed that I'm

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Speaker 2: filming for you.

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Speaker 1: Well, it can certainly slave people up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: slap you've been a police officer and will delve into

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Speaker 1: your policing career, and you know, that's the type of

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Speaker 1: thing that will stop police misbehaving if someone's watching. But

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Speaker 1: on that George Floyd, when they had the marches here,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't long out of the cops and it was

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Speaker 1: controversial circumstances and I got invited along to that march

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Speaker 1: and David Shubridge, the Greens MP at the time was

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Speaker 1: coordinating it. And I've turned up there. People said that

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Speaker 1: you come in. I knew it'd be controversial if I

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Speaker 1: turned up there, and I ended up on the news.

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Speaker 1: I look, who's here, the disgraced detective. And it was

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Speaker 1: funny because I knew the cops. I knew a lot

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Speaker 1: of the blackfellows, and I was drifting between the two.

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Speaker 1: What really hit me being out of the cops for

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Speaker 1: the first time in a situation like that, how confronting it.

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Speaker 1: He's seen a line of blue uniforms lined up and

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Speaker 1: I'm standing with this group where I'm used to be

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Speaker 1: standing with that group, And how intimidating it.

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Speaker 2: It's very intimidating if you've never but yeah, and we've

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Speaker 2: been on that side. Yeah, you know, I used to

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Speaker 2: do the same sort of work, public public order, your

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Speaker 2: public order. Yeah, it's hard, it's difficult, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's where I'm not scared of place. I guess because

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Speaker 2: I know my rights. Really, I really know my rights,

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Speaker 2: like yeah, but but for someone who doesn't know their rights, intimidating,

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Speaker 2: it's very intimidating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's that's what I found on the day.

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Speaker 1: And it was an inspirational day. I thought it was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was very moving when we walked all the way

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Speaker 1: through the city to a park and everyone took took

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Speaker 1: to one knellion.

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Speaker 2: It was all timed all over the around the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they had rallies all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was powerful and I thought people would buy

398
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Speaker 1: into that, and it was a it was a wake

399
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Speaker 1: up call, and I think some people sort of open

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Speaker 1: their eyes to what's going on because it was a

401
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Speaker 1: worldwide movement. Wasn't it from one one incident that people Okay,

402
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Speaker 1: enough is enough and we're going to stop that. Your

403
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Speaker 1: reference in your your second book, Cops of Cops of Crooks,

404
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Speaker 1: I think tops of criminals, when cops are criminals came

405
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Speaker 1: home cops of crooks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that too.

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Speaker 1: When in that I think you talked about an incident

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Speaker 1: here at Redfern where a young fellow was had his

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Speaker 1: feet swept out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was footage of that. Yeah, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that's what I'm what I'm emphasizing. If there wasn't

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Speaker 2: footage of that, we wouldn't know about it, right, you

413
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Speaker 2: know that we you know, I've had family members who

414
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Speaker 2: have been assaulted by police and flogged up and back

415
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Speaker 2: in the day prior to mobile phones where they could

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Speaker 2: film it, and when they say it, it's not believed.

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Speaker 2: You know, we believe you, we believe the family members,

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Speaker 2: but unless you have hard evidence, it goes nowhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And with that incident, I remember again I

420
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Speaker 1: wasn't that long our of cops and working for the

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Speaker 1: Sunday Telegraph and they asked me to write an article.

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Speaker 1: And I knew i'd get asked like who's better the

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Speaker 1: right a cop and someone that understands who would degree

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Speaker 1: the indigenous issues? And it was a very I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to write it because I thought which sides of

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Speaker 1: which side do I take here? But I was happy

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Speaker 1: with the article. But one thing that I said with

428
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Speaker 1: that because I don't like seeing things escalate. And I

429
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Speaker 1: knew how the cops would feel. If the cop was

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Speaker 1: charged and convicted, they'll be angry and they'll look at

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Speaker 1: the was their fault, and then the indigenous community would

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Speaker 1: look if the cop doesn't get charged, they'll get angry.

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Speaker 1: I made a suggestion in the article. I don't think

434
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: it was taken seriously, but I've spoken to a few

435
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: people and they agree that wasn't a bad way of

436
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: dealing with it. What if it was a young cop,

437
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: young guy. What if you've got the two families together

438
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: and sat down actually had a barbecue as ridiculous as sounds,

439
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: and just try and think outside the square and instead

440
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: of having that division. It doesn't mean that the person

441
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: if for the assault shouldn't be accountable, but try to

442
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: break down the barriers. What do you think of that

443
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: sort of response?

444
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: So the cop, the family of the.

445
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: Cop, family of the cops, and the blackfellows come together,

446
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: because it don't they've done some of that at Redfern

447
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: where they've got that boxing Shane Phillips, tribal warrior, clean slate,

448
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: without prejudice and it just breaks down the barriers. Yeah right, okay,

449
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: yeah right now.

450
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: Faith in that? Really, I'd still I wouldn't be trying.

451
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: I think as a copper, as a black copper, former

452
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: black copper, I was invited to have these barbecues and

453
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: no one spoke to me and want all my family

454
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: and kids. Okay, so I wouldn't want my community members

455
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: to go to barbecues if they can treat one of

456
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: their own that I was blue, how I'm not going

457
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: to try and not to swear here Now you can

458
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: swear how the fuck did they treat my people? You know?

459
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: And also I'm trying to move away from police language,

460
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: but I kind of when I'm talking to you as

461
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: a former cop and other former cops, I find myself

462
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: back and fall back in, yeah, because it's the language

463
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 2: of policing, and so I'm trying not to go back

464
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: and yeah using but I you know, I you know,

465
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: I will, you know, I just find myself ending up

466
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: talking like a former coup or a cop. And I

467
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: don't want to use the language. I don't I don't

468
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: want to reinforce the language.

469
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: It's clearly and we'll talk about it. But you've been

470
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: scarred from it and damage from your experience in the cops.

471
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, I don't want to I want the listeners

472
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: and the viewers to know that when I was a

473
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: cop ten years I was complicit.

474
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: You know.

475
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: I wasn't the first one to put my hand up.

476
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: I was just as bad. I was arresting people, I

477
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: was chasing people, I was harming people. You know, I

478
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: was involved in police pursuits because someone else has stolen

479
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: vehicle meant more to me at the time than their lives.

480
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so pushing the envelope.

481
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is which is wrong? It's like we know

482
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: so a few years ago, there was a couple of

483
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: Aboriginal boys in perf in a chase for police and

484
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: they got out all they were in a foot chase

485
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: and they jumped into a river to get away from

486
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 2: the police. Why do they need to chase They knew

487
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 2: who it was when I was pursuing the style veh

488
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: because I knew who was in the car and my

489
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: partner was doing speeds up to two hundred kilometers per hour.

490
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: We know who's in the car. Let's get them tomorrow,

491
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: you know. I mean we're actually putting their lives in

492
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: danger and other people's rights than danger boy actually pursuing.

493
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I know that there's protocols in place

494
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: now to stop that that type of thing where you've

495
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: got to call the call in the Yeah, it can

496
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: get together, get around.

497
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going to be I think I've

498
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 2: written it in my introduction. And when cups of criminals,

499
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, yeah, I'd like I'd like myself to a

500
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: whistleblower actually telling people what it's like inside.

501
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it can we put up front because we're

502
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: going to delve deep into it. Yeah, and I said

503
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: this to you before before we went on air. That Yeah,

504
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: my take on the cops is I've met some of

505
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: the most inspirational good people in the cops, and I've

506
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: met some of the worst people in the cops. So

507
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: we're going to be spraying cops here. But is it

508
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: fair to say and correct me if you disagree? There

509
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: are some good cops. Don't laugh.

510
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: You keep this in. Please keep this that's a fucking joke.

511
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: You had a good, better experience than me, So that's

512
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: what I mean.

513
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So it's about relative to the.

514
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: Experience in Black and Blue. In the blue part I spoke,

515
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: I wrote about a cops talking me. Yes, right, in

516
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: when Cops Are Criminals, I wrote about that very same

517
00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: cop sexually assaulting me. And unless you've been on an inside.

518
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you are the only person I've ever had

519
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: online catchkiller. Is that reported a complaint against yourself?

520
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 2: Yes?

521
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's we can have a laugh at some things.

522
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to have a laugh at that.

523
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: Yeah.

524
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: When I read about it, I thought, okay, this is interesting,

525
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: tell us that story.

526
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: Oh so my my ex husband and that's the thing.

527
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: I was a copper at the time, but I couldn't

528
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: detect that he was having an external relationship outside of

529
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: our marriage. So I thought my home was going really good.

530
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: But yeah, he was, and it was going on for

531
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: like twelve months apparently.

532
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: But well, I say, you're always the last one to know, always.

533
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he left me for another woman, and so

534
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: I did some unethical checks on her, and you know,

535
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: and it was unethical and you know, not not what

536
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: I should have been doing, but there were reasons why

537
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: I did it.

538
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So people understand what we're talking about here. With you,

539
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: as a police officer, you have access to information on

540
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: the computer that you can find out where people live

541
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: and all sorts of details, which.

542
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything, where they live, what tattoos they have there

543
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: on their body, what they hang with.

544
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: You remember, you're diving deep. But it's a it's a

545
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: responsibility that can't be abused. But we know it has

546
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: been abused. And you actually did it because you have

547
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: this jilted lover or whatever, and you want to find

548
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: out who this girl that your man left you for,

549
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: and you've looked up her deep.

550
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but potentially who was going to be looking like

551
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: who my kids. So that's the main reason I did it,

552
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: should have done it. Couldn't sleep and walked into the

553
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: boss's office and said, hey, this is what I've done. I

554
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: was hoping to just says, all right, go have a

555
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: coffee and Ronny, No.

556
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure it hasn't dealt No, it hasn't dealt with

557
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: someone coming in the coman. Yeah, imagine if someone came in.

558
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: Where do I go with this?

559
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: But this is like, yeah, so I did put in

560
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: a complaint, a formal complaint against myself. Stick head, all right, stickhead.

561
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: It went to Ethical Standards and rightly so I probably

562
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: should have been demot but they couldn't demotor first year Connie.

563
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: So I go back to the academy. Yeah, I'll go

564
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: back to Canada.

565
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But anyway, so when I was interviewed by

566
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: Ethical Standards, so we're having a DARB in the back

567
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: prior to a formal interview and he's got to file

568
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: the gay big that's how efficient I was. And he

569
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: just got me at the back and said, don't say

570
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: too much because I would have type it out. Yeah. Yeah,

571
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: like I started with loose lips here. Yeah, but there

572
00:30:59,080 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: you go.

573
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: Well, it does It says a lot about you as

574
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: a person. It says a lot about your integrity and

575
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: also your stupidity. I think tick all the tick, all

576
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: those boxes.

577
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I lost the what they did, they took

578
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: away my oversays. So essentially four hundred and fifty a fortnight,

579
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: which was a big loss. Yeah, and then the consequence

580
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: of that is that I was financially struggling as a

581
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: single parent of three kids.

582
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, makes it.

583
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: I would rather go back to the academy, to be honest. Yeah, yeah,

584
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: happy there, Yeah, no, not really.

585
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's talk about your life up until joining

586
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: the police. Then why you joined the police? So, yeah,

587
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: you had a bit of trauma in your your life.

588
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to trigger anything. You talk about what

589
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: you want to discuss. But before you joined the police.

590
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as a child growing up, whenever my father

591
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: was driving a car and he saw a cop car

592
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: coming here to say, drungles, which is our language for police,

593
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: and us kids will just throw ourselves on the floor

594
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: of the car and hide because and that was generational

595
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: from my grandparents were terrified at police. My grandmother was

596
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: stolen from a family by police, you know, So we

597
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: had so much fear in the family and in our

598
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: community and still do actually with police. And I didn't

599
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: want my kids because I was twenty nine and I

600
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: didn't when I joined, and I didn't want my kids

601
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: to have grown up with that same fear because I

602
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: never you know, I started like I wasn't in fear.

603
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: So I wanted to show them that cops can be

604
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: trusted and all that. Well, I'd only been a short

605
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: time in the police as a short time on the

606
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: road to general and I realized that in the fears

607
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: that my people had, my family and my community were well,

608
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: untruly justified.

609
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the trauma associated with and I've heard

610
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: this many a time from many people in your your position,

611
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: where their family have been worried about their kids being

612
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: taken taken off them. And yeah, one one family was

613
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: the whole thing was always keep the kids clean and

614
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: all that, because the authorities, whether that be the police,

615
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: of miss mission manager or whoever turns up, might say, okay,

616
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: I'm taking taking these kids from you. It's hard to comprehend,

617
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, this is, this is.

618
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: And this happens to it happens to our family right

619
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: to still today, you know, welfare have the power to

620
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: walk into your house as well as police. Police will

621
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: acted on behalf of welfare and please And what I

622
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: want to emphasize is some of the police that are

623
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: attending these homes and determining whether that they're a good parent.

624
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: These people are good parents. They've never they're only young,

625
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: they're fresh out of the academy, they've never experienced violence,

626
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: they've never starved a day in their live. The Silver

627
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: Spoon kids, you know, like they've never struggled, and then

628
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: they come to an Aboriginal person's home determine that the

629
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: child is not safe there.

630
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: One of the things in the book you were talking

631
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: are talking about coming in and checking the cupboards, the

632
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: cfare's food in there if there's not a food in there,

633
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: and that that was.

634
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: They used to go the old girls, the arnies and

635
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: that used to put empty tins and packets at the

636
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 2: front of it so it looked like they had food

637
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: in the cupboard.

638
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's yeah.

639
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: My father grew up like on our mission like toys

640
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: down in Southeast Victoria, Bangyana in our language. He grew

641
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: up that whenever they heard a car coming down on

642
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: the dirt road into the mission, all the kids will

643
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: just flee, and he remembers hiding under one of our

644
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: great great Arnie's dress at one time from police and welfare.

645
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: It's not it's not conducive to a good way of

646
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: living or feeling comfort the ball.

647
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: But I also experienced the same thing. So as a

648
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: domestic was also subjected to domestic violence and misidentified as

649
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: a perpetrator.

650
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: And why is that?

651
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: I think when you're in a violent relationship or an

652
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: abusive relationship, were you being so controlled and told to

653
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: shut your mouth and if you direct, this is what's

654
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: going to happen if they leave. There was threats made

655
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: to me if I told my dad or my grandparents

656
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: what was happening. Yeah, So when someone does come, finally

657
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: come and I never called police, the neighbors must have

658
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: thank god, you know, I just and I was so

659
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: grateful that they were there because I'd had enough, you know,

660
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: getting bashed and I was hysterical and loud and crying

661
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: out for help, and he was there calm, which is

662
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: part of the tactic, you know, strategically you sit there

663
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 2: or come and I'm the crazy one.

664
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: And the cops have come in and gone, oh, you're

665
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: the emotional one. You're the Yeah, yep, that must have

666
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: been hard.

667
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: It was hard, and it was not the first time.

668
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's happened quite a few times with me.

669
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: And there's one portion in the book and it really

670
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: saddened me when I read it because I'd heard the

671
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: same tale from people up at Bearable. And this is

672
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: going back only a generation, not that long ago. But

673
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: the women on the mission were worried when the white

674
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: fellows would come in because they would be raped, and

675
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: they put sand in their vaginas. That's and I read

676
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: that in your book. It made me sad when I

677
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: was told about it up at Bearable. That's what used

678
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: to happen. And then reading in your book, just explain,

679
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: explain this. It is horrendous.

680
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah, and I hope you know that's what

681
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: they had to do to protect themselves. And you can blame,

682
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: you know, like colonization for that, because that was that's

683
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: been happening since colonization, you know, and trying to wipe

684
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 2: out the black race. And you've got fair, fair kids

685
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: running around so and they're the ones that were stolen.

686
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: What what what we're talking about here is white men

687
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: coming into the mission and just rape, raping, raping the women,

688
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: and the way the girls and the young girls and

689
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 1: the way that they would be protect themselves, put sand

690
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: in their vaginas just.

691
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: And they get pregnant and then the children, the babies

692
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: are taken from styleing from them.

693
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: So when we when we talk about this, and this

694
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: is where I think it's really good sitting down and

695
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,959
Speaker 1: having having a chat chat with you, because I've spent

696
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: so long talking to people Bearable, but others, other communities

697
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: that have been involved, and I hear these stories and

698
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: it's sort of it's just it drums it into me

699
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, because when you speak to

700
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: people that haven't been exposed to that or heard stories

701
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: like that, it's very easy to judge and get, oh, well,

702
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, what are they talking about. We're not racist

703
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: in this country, or we haven't got a problem, but

704
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: you've got the high incarceration rate, the early mortality, there's

705
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: so many issues.

706
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we make up three or three point five

707
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: percent of the entire population of our own country, and

708
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: yet we're the highest incarcerated in prisons and also in

709
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: some prisons or the prisons in Northern Territory, there's one

710
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: hundred percent young people Aboriginal kids. One hundred percent of

711
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: Aboriginal children.

712
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: It's right, there, isn't it the figures, But.

713
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: It's very talering how police operate and the justice systems

714
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: flawed because my people are targeted, surveiled thoughked to the

715
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 2: point where they can't even look left and right without

716
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 2: being picked up by a police. It's just like fucking

717
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: leave my people alone.

718
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: It starts at a young age to like a young

719
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: age where kids get you get fines, and yeah, they

720
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: never get their license because different reasons, and virtually it

721
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: takes a path. But you mentioned the figures, and I

722
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: think it was Jaron Badget, who we talked about before

723
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: the interview that has been on here. I think she

724
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: gave me those figures once.

725
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: Jaron's an amazing person. She's been through a bit too.

726
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've been through a hell of a lot. But yeah,

727
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: she's a very impressive lady, a great, great guest on

728
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: the podcast here, one of my favorites. But I think

729
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: she was rutting those figures off because she did some

730
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: work in the Northern Territory and one hundred percent of

731
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: the kids.

732
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And also when I was a police officer

733
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,479
Speaker 2: with the intervention it cars to come up there and work.

734
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: Fuck I am you know what I mean, I'm not

735
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: going to be part of the system that steals my

736
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: you know that very same. It just just baffles me,

737
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, like we're the most surveiled community people in

738
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: this country. You know. Also, like you look at the

739
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: reciptivism rate of help my people, very very high. So

740
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: it's like a revolving door and it's intentional. It's the

741
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 2: they can't kill us, they're still killing us, so they're

742
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: locking us up.

743
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: So with the attitudes you've got there, what made you

744
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: want to join the police.

745
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 2: Or well, the first one of the reasons, I didn't

746
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: want my children to go through the same years I had.

747
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: I didn't want my kids to be throwing themselves to

748
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: the floor every time a cop car drove out.

749
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: So you thought you'd go there and make a difference.

750
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: Try to make a difference and try to bridge a

751
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,959
Speaker 2: gap between my people in the average on community at

752
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 2: like with police and try to say, hey, they're okay,

753
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: they're here to help. And I was so wrong, SONI

754
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: even so dumb. How I stayed in so long.

755
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how old were you when you join

756
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: the place thirty okay, so whether you've been doing up

757
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: until that time, and I might you were the first

758
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: person in your family that got through year twelve at school.

759
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you'll find them. And that's a lot of

760
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 2: families will resonate with that. There's always the first. And

761
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: it's not to say that there's you know, your other

762
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: siblings and aren't intelligent, so that we come from trauma.

763
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: A lot with our lives come are trauma based, you know,

764
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: and for what their reasons, they don't they don't have dreams,

765
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: they don't have aspirations, you know. I have concerns for

766
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 2: my family members when they leave their homes that they're

767
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: going to be the next step in custody.

768
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: M hmm.

769
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: That do you have kids? Do you have that worry?

770
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: Nos?

771
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry no, no, but I'll get yeah.

772
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: But I understand. I'll relate a story that I was

773
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: up It was away on holidays up up the case

774
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: at Port Macquarie and I got a call from one

775
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: of the barable mobs and it was Christmas time and

776
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: they said to me what they're up to? And I've

777
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: got on just up up the coast on holidays whereabouts

778
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: I said, oh, Port macquary and they said, great, I've gone.

779
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: Why one of the one of the mob had been

780
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: locked up and he was on the mission and they

781
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: actually called the police because the police had turned up

782
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: looking for him previously, and said, look he's here now

783
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: and come and get him. Not to cause harm or whatever.

784
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: They were just trying to do the right thing. He

785
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: knew it was only a matter of time, and he

786
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: went there. They called me and said, we're at the

787
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: police station and we're worried that he's going to self

788
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: harm in the cells. And it's great you're at Port

789
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: McQuary because you can come down and saw that out.

790
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: Now you know the workings of police just I wasn't

791
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: stationed there. I'm just going to rock up and sort

792
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: it out. I got there and there was about twenty

793
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: of them out in front of the police police station,

794
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: twenty of the Bowerble mob, and they're gone, great, you're here,

795
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 1: can you go? We want to go down the cells

796
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: and see our couz. I've gone. It mightn't be that simple.

797
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: It mightn't be that simple. I walked in in the

798
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 1: first person I spoke to. I didn't get much reception,

799
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: and then saw the supervisor and I just said, look,

800
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: the group we got out there, they're worried about one

801
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: of the people that you got in the in the cells,

802
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: and would it be a big impost if I went

803
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: down with them and some of the family members and

804
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: we go down there and they can just have a yarn,

805
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: make sure he's okay, reassure him, and reassure them. And

806
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: this was a good cop and he switched on and said,

807
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: not a problem. Look, let one they come down. But

808
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: they were out the front for hours, genuinely concerned that

809
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: if they don't get in and see their cousin or

810
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: relative friend, that he was going to self harmed. So

811
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: I do understand that, and that that was very real.

812
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: That was very real, that thee fear that they had

813
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: and the relief that they all had once they spoke

814
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: to him and said, yeah, he's okay, he's not going

815
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: to do anything. And it was simple as letting them

816
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 1: go down the cells.

817
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: Now.

818
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,280
Speaker 1: They had tried to get that done before we about

819
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: me there and they were refused, and that's why they

820
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: were all forming out the front of the police station

821
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: that police, can we just go down there. So a

822
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: little thing like that, but yeah, I got to say,

823
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: it's not something I worry worry about with my kids.

824
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: And when you put it that way again, it brings in.

825
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: You think of that before.

826
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: But that's what that's a beauty of sitting there talking

827
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: with someone looking at from your your viewpoint because I'm

828
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: ignorant to it, but it's something that yeah.

829
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: I'm not driving a car and you just know when

830
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: crops come past the lights are on, just to automatically

831
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: pull over.

832
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: It's not license, not not a good not a good

833
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: way to live. So no, how what was the process

834
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: applying to the police? Was hard for you to get in?

835
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: And this is Queensland Police, we're talking about. What year

836
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: was it that you joined?

837
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:55,479
Speaker 2: Two thousand and one? Okay, yeah, no, I joined full

838
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: interview process like everyone else successful got in. Surprise that

839
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: I got in, actually yeah, my dad was really proud

840
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: of me for doing that and getting in. I don't

841
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: know why, but I felt proud of myself as well

842
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: because I thought I was going to make these changes.

843
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 2: But that's just maybe nove.

844
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: How did you find the academy?

845
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: The academy was hard because it's a stroke. There's only

846
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: three other original people there at the time. Out of hundreds,

847
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: So there's four Aboriginal people.

848
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: Did you support each other?

849
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, one of them will. So what they

850
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: strategically did is they put me in a squad with

851
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: another Aboriginal person. Yeah, and me and him were like

852
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: best mates. And he's my little brother still and he's

853
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: out of the job now for the same reasons I

854
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: got out.

855
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll we'll talk about that. But did you

856
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 1: you feel in the academy that, okay, I will make

857
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: a difference, like when at that point in time before

858
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: you hit the streets.

859
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 2: No, it's the academy is different, like it's a whole

860
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: you're very sheltered, so all you're learning and it's every

861
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: four weeks you having exams and legislation and working on

862
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: your physical yeah, shooting and firearms and driving, which I loved. Yeah,

863
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: so it's a different world. When you're quite sheltered, you

864
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 2: don't know what's happening. I didn't know what to expect

865
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: when I first went out.

866
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: There was there any cultural training in there that you got.

867
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, snooze face, We're like all that. Everyone who's just

868
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: flaming back because it's done in the last week before

869
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 2: you get your march out and all the other coppers

870
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: and the full averagine people. We're the ones that were

871
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: sitting up up straight and paying attention. We don't need

872
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: the training these fellows do. These white fellows needed it,

873
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: but they were sleeping.

874
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hope it is improved, but I know what

875
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: you're talking about a lot of the mandatory like if

876
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: if it's done the wrong way, people just it's a

877
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: tick and flick. It's not really so you learn.

878
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: I learned so much on the road and not in

879
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: the first week.

880
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: Who did you get buddied with? Because when you come

881
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: out of the Academy of Assuming Queensland, it's like New

882
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: South Wales you get the buddy that it looks after.

883
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 2: Training officer, which is what I ended up becoming as well.

884
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 2: But yeah, I was one with a female, Like there's

885
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: like a form do you want to be with a

886
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: male or female? I didn't really care when I talk

887
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: about stuff that happened in the police. It wasn't just

888
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: it's not just males. It's not gendered.

889
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you were. You're up against it in two

890
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: parts as Aboriginal, but also a female in a place

891
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: and a single parent, and a single parent you're ticking

892
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: a few few boxes to make it hard.

893
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 2: And you know, like, yeah, it was really difficult, really

894
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: really difficult.

895
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: Did you think you stick it out? I know the

896
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: first couple of weeks you think, well, have I got

897
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: myself into?

898
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: But well, it was really difficult working with this particular

899
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: person that my field training officer.

900
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: But I because most people, they tend to select people

901
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: that are good at nurturing and training nurturing. What what

902
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: was she was telling me to quit? But well, and

903
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: how why?

904
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: And you shouldn't you should quit?

905
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: Where did that come from? Or what was that about?

906
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: I have no idea, I can't I can't speak for her.

907
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 2: So I end up telling the boss. I said, hey,

908
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: I need a new partner. I'm gonna I'm gonna have

909
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: to quit. And so he put me with someone else

910
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 2: who was amazing because I had a different experience.

911
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, but that's that's an important part. Like

912
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,720
Speaker 1: when you join the cops, if you can get shanned

913
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: the way by good people that can, it's critical to you.

914
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. But also he was Smoan as well. He was

915
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: a Smoan police officer, and so culturally, like we're both minorities.

916
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: So he got me and I got him.

917
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: So okay, and that that made it easier for me.

918
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: How were you received with the public when you get

919
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: out there and you're shining new uniform as a black lady.

920
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good because like when when I went

921
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: to attended jobs when it was my people, they all

922
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 2: knew me because I was in the community. So there

923
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: was an Aboriginal Community Health Service, my kids and I

924
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: attended there. They'd have nateof wag my kids and I

925
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: were there and most times I worked it and my

926
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: kids would come. So the community were very involved with

927
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: the community, accepted in the community, and yeah, and it

928
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: was really good. But it was good because whenever the

929
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: jobs come up, but they they're home, they would say,

930
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: ronic can come in, but you bullyman can't come in.

931
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: So and I'd be sitting inside having a cup of

932
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: tea Arnie up yeah, and all these white coppers yeah

933
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: and not so like you know, there was like an

934
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: old uncle sitting on the roof and I was like,

935
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: I've taken me unkidded and befire arm away. And then

936
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: I saw I heard a job coming over the radio

937
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: and all these coat tour lights and signs because uncles

938
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: sitting on the roof, and I thought, fuck me, dad,

939
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: they turn It's the whole fucking siege now. So I

940
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 2: just went there because I was in a place vehicle,

941
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 2: but I wasn't kidded up, and I just told him

942
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: to get down off the roof. Get off the fucking roof.

943
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: Sit on your own roof, you know. And but he

944
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: had a smoke and he had no lighter, and he said,

945
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 2: run here, give me a light. And I said, come

946
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: down and get it, simple as.

947
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: That simple thing.

948
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: Simple. And you've got all these they're all hide me

949
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: on the car getting really fuck me, give me a light.

950
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: Was there was there any resentment in the community that

951
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: you're across to the blue side.

952
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 2: No, because but the thing is, I try to treat

953
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: everybody with the respect that I would like to be treated,

954
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't treat anyone any different. Yeah,

955
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: that's that's my motto. That's how I am. Yeah.

956
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well look we might we might take a

957
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: break now when we when okay, we'll get you out

958
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: of here. When when we get back, we'll talk about

959
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: the rest of your career, how you left, and your

960
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: second book that you've knocked out, and we'll talk about

961
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: whatever else comes up, we'll just have a you all right.

962
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: Cheers