1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: The path of the bullet through this person took a 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: form of a slight sort of curve, bit like an 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: arc or almost a spiral. Because of death is often 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: bleed novice because it is. But the other stuff, the 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: how it happened, is often not straightforward at all. A 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: forensic pathology doesn't solve crimes. Forensic pathology by and large 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: corroborates or refutes the witness statements of others or a 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: particular police. 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule, this is life and Crimes, and again 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 2: we are here with Professor David Ranson, who was with 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: us last week and this week he's going to continue 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: to tell us more stories about his long and interesting 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: life in forensic pathology. Yeah, nice to be with you again, Andrew, 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: Professor Ranson. When I was a much younger reporter, I 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: was researching a crime story. It was in fact a book, 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: and I had to go to Epton in central Victoria 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: because the book was about a crime that had happened 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: in the sixties, which was the medil Haywood murders. Up there. 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: Two teenagers abducted and killed and it was a massive 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: case in the sixties that caught my attention as a 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: child and I never forgot it because it was very big, 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 2: and indeed, twenty two years after it happened, I found 23 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: myself writing a book about it, the first book I 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: ever wrote. And during that process I went out to 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: see a veteran policeman called Frank Air in Sheperdon and 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: his nice house on the edge of Sheperdon where the 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: gum trees are flowering and the birds are singing. And 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: I went out there on i'll say a Saturday afternoon. 29 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 2: I reckon, I think it was a weekend. It would 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: have been, because I was working for the paper Monday 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: to Friday, so it was the weekend. And there I 32 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: am talking to Frank, who was middle aged man, he 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: might have just retired as a policeman himself. And while 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: I'm there to him, in comes this young fellow, like 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: a kid more or less. It looks like a kid 36 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: who had stepped off a skateboard. He was probably adeen. 37 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: He had his cap on backwards, and he might have 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: had an earring, just a young, lean youth, you know. 39 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: And he came in and said his father said, oh, 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: this is Andrew Ruley. This is my son, Damien Damienair. 41 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: And that boy he'd been out celebrating the night before 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: because he'd been accepted into the police force, and so 43 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: that was by chance I saw that lad happy that 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: he got into the police force his father's job, following 45 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: his father, and within I think within a year of that, 46 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: he was shot dead in Wall Street South the era 47 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: with another young policeman called and that brings us to 48 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: the Wall Street murders, which were a terrible thing. 49 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that's a case I did work on, 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: and it was my case from mythology one of you. 51 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: And it's so like all cases have their little sort 52 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: of back ground. I mean, I wasn't particularly involved in 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: the broader police investigation. This was a complicated series of 54 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: issues that were going on. But I had come back, 55 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: i think from the scene and dealing with the shooting. 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: I think of Jensen that before and I was so 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: I think I was quite tired because I'd had been 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: that scene the day before. I'd gone back at the 59 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: time because it was a complex again on the top 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: of the absolutely so I had been out there with 61 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: hal Hanstein, who was the current at the time, and 62 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: I got back. Did you did the autopsy and all 63 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: those things that you do in investigation from the medical side, 64 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: and then I'd gone home and I was pretty tired. 65 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: I've been up most of the night, and so I 66 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: asked one wife should drive me, because I just I 67 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: don't feel like driving it and so on, and so 68 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: I came in a bit late because and she. As 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: we drove past the bottom of Wall Street, I could 70 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: see all these cars and lights and think, and I 71 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: thought that I had no idea because those days we 72 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: didn't have mobile phones and getting up plates and stuff. 73 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: So I drove into work and there is mister Hallenstein 74 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: and saying we've got this major incident, and I was 75 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: still on call. So I jumped in the. 76 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: Car and went back down to Wall Street. 77 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: And I must say it was one of the quite sad, 78 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: poignant scenes I've been at, because, as you can imagine, 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: the police response was massive in terms of personnel and 80 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: who was there and so on. And you know, in 81 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: the middle of this scene there was these two dead 82 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: young young and just just awful in that sort of scenario. 83 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: But that's where you know the forensic person kicks in. 84 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: You just got to do everything. You've just got to 85 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: follow those lines. You've got to collect, keep things safe, 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: make sure you don't lose evidence, you know, get things documented, 87 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: think clearly, you know, And I developed my own At 88 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: those stages, we didn't really have a lot of those 89 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: sorts of things available because it was the earliest days 90 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: of the institute. Really, I developed my own protocols, my 91 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: own sheets, my own sort of checklists, my own chart systems, 92 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: and I just applied those religiously to that process, right, 93 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: And that's what saves your bacon later on. 94 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: I continue, there it is, and you can reproduce it 95 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: in court or anywhere else. That's right. That is then 96 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: I did this because I always do it. That's exactly right, 97 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: exactly and what do you remember of the rest of 98 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 2: that case? 99 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: Like all these things, it really went off into a 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: very complex and detailed police investigation for which I only 101 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: had on odds sort of snippet or engagement with because 102 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: I think people often forget, you know, they seem to 103 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: think on the TV shows that you know, the principle 104 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: artist is doing all this stuff and you're interrogating suspects 105 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: in it, going out, carrying out you don't do any 106 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,559 Speaker 1: of that. You focus on the skill set. You've got 107 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: to bring that to the investigation. How that gets used 108 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: later on is up to the police investigators and let's 109 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: say the director of private executions and a crime. 110 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: Stay at a lab a courtroom. That's right, that's right. 111 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: And your role is quite specific, and often say to 112 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: people you know, forensic potholdio doesn't solve crimes. Forensic pathology 113 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: by and large corroborates or refutes the witness statements of 114 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: others or a particular police creation of what's anaria that 115 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: they've created has how the event happened, and that's your role. 116 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: Your role is to make sense of that. So when 117 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: when you're in court and the you know, the Jewish 118 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: listening to what you're saying, what you're really doing is 119 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: corroborating or refuting these key evidence from the people who 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: perhaps were there, who did hear or see other things. 121 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: So it's less about the cause of death. It's more 122 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: about how the death occurred. That is, the immediate circumstances 123 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: of the death. Canstructing of the event of the death. 124 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: You know, as a person standing up where they're lying down, 125 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: would they have been conscious, did they try to defend themselves? 126 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: All of those issues are probably far more important than 127 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: the cause of death. And I think I've said to 128 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: a colleagues before the cause of death is often bleeding novice, 129 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: because it is I mean, that's for those sorts of cases. 130 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: It is usually very straightforward. But the other stuff how 131 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: it happened is often not straightforward at all. 132 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: Right, And it's interesting, isn't because you get precise measurements 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: and precise photographs and so on, which may well show 134 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: that a witness who thought that somebody was shot from 135 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: over there, then that's impossible, that's right. From a different side, 136 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: In which case was it that bullet? No? 137 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: Well, I had a really interesting case, which was in 138 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: fact a police shooting case some years later than that, 139 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: where there really was and I think at the time 140 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: I might be wrong, but I think there were two 141 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: police officers and one and the victim, and there's nobody 142 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: else there, so you know, there is no independent witness 143 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: of what happened in this particular scenario. But the interesting 144 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: thing was that the police gave their statements and it 145 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: was all done properly, you know, separating them and each 146 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: giving independent statements and things like that. And they told 147 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: me the story, and I looked at my examination and 148 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: one of the things I'd found particularly of interesting examination 149 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: was that the path of the bullet through this person 150 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: took a form of a slight sort of curve, bit 151 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: like an arc or almost a spiral, and bullets don't 152 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: go in a spiral for the body. So the only 153 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: way that could have occurred is if the person themselves 154 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: was twisted into a sort of spiral. That is, they 155 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: twisted around when the bullet went in, so the path 156 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: through the body was a sort of curve. And that 157 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: actually corroborated the statement of one of those police officers 158 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: who said, well, this person then turned around a point 159 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: the gun at me when my so again he thought 160 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: of gunshot words, No, probably the cause of death, but 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: that identification actually. 162 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: Told But which one on how Now he's a case. 163 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 2: I know a policeman who's no longer a policeman, and 164 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: a pretty good one, pretty good one, Gipsland boy. He 165 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: was involved in a police raid on let's say, a 166 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: drug dealer's house or flat something out in Hawthorne years 167 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: many years ago. And there was a small group of 168 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: police and they've raided this place and they feared that 169 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: this man was armed and dangerous, which I think he was, 170 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: and so the police are, they're amped up and they've 171 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 2: got guns in their hands. And during this very fast 172 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: takedown of this guy, and it's fast and it's violent 173 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: and it's frightening. Yep, a gun goes off and one 174 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 2: of the police collapses on the ground with a bullet 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: through his abdomen and nearly killed him. Didn't kill him, 176 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: could have killed him. And the fellow I know was 177 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: certain that the crook had shot him. He thought that 178 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: the crook who didn't who did have a pistol, had 179 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: shot his friend. And he's outraged. Anyway, when the smoke 180 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: had settled, it turns out it was his own gun. 181 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: My fellow's gun had gone off, and he didn't even 182 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: know that had gone He said, if the adrenaline, the noise, 183 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 2: the fear, everything, I can com mitigate against it. And 184 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: in the end, I said, hang on his yep, the 185 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: crook's gun didn't go off, because here it is, it's 186 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: got in mind. Mine's got an empty one with a 187 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: someone so much to everybody's amazement. Yes, and yet that 188 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: could have in a different time, it might have been 189 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: written off. 190 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: Yes, look look at obviously I mean, and of course 191 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: that is that's what I manage about that reconstruction. It's 192 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: lucky at all of those all those things and piecing 193 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: them all together and seeing what is really possible in 194 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: that sort of scenario. 195 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: And would you extra the bullet from a body? Sure 196 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: about what do you do with it? Then well that 197 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: would go. 198 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: That would effectively the things Well, they would go to 199 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: the police Forensic Science Lab, which is a cloud and 200 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: which would as a specialist ballistic unit where they would 201 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: be if they had access to the weapon will be 202 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: tested over library and they have the library and that 203 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: door would photograph Yeah, I would be Yeah, what we 204 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: would do is we we'd actually, first of all, we 205 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: would be xtraying that person. These days we'll be CT scanning, 206 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: and we see T scan every single body that comes 207 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: into the public madly, absolutely so. But in those days 208 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: before we had the CT, we would have been taking 209 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: antier posterior front to back X rays of the body 210 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: and then laterals side view as well, so that you 211 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: could actually put those two together to find out where 212 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: the projectile is in the body, right, so we'd record 213 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: it there. We've then obviously record all the entrance wound 214 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be an exit for the bodies. 215 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: But it's still there, so you record all of that. 216 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: You then seck down onto that area, photograph the bullet 217 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: as it lies inside the body, right, and then you 218 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: would extract that bullet, photographed again, wash it, photograph with 219 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: the scale, put it into the container again. No doubt 220 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: that this is what I meant about following protocols and 221 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: following things. You've got to be really pernicodi and you 222 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: must never touch anything. It's one of the things that 223 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: annoys me about TV shows and victim shows, well, dirty 224 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: hand issue. It's picking them up with metal forceps. You 225 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: see people stigging bullets out of the world with metal forceps. 226 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: The last thing you want to do your scratch it. 227 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: You'll remove the markings or damage potentially damage them the compancer. 228 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: Will you either use little little nine on four steps 229 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: which are like the dressing kits and so on, or 230 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: you use your fingers and rubber glove, you know, and 231 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: just to make sure that you're not damaging that projector 232 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: so there's all these little things. Well, I do try 233 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: to help. I'll do a lot of TV stuff these days, 234 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's actually great fun helping them get those 235 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: things right. 236 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: Right as all had that stuff right as wrong exactly exactly. 237 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: Well, it's also There's another thing as well about it, 238 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: because if you if you get those sort of things right, 239 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: all the shows get those sort of things right. It 240 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: actually informs the community. It informs the public a of 241 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: what we can do. But also if those people appear 242 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: in a jury and song, they've at least got the 243 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: right framework in their mind. 244 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: It'd be a good part of a script, is wise. 245 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 2: Old pathologist says, don't you dead? Exactly put those down? 246 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: You'll scratch that bullet. Yep, that's right, exactly right, Sorry, sorry, boss. Yeah, 247 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: it'd script. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's great. And that's what 248 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: I think. It's interesting. 249 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm doing a number of TV shows now and doing 250 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: advice for them, and it really is. It's great working 251 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: on sort of the scripts and helping the writers understand 252 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: the real world because they can never portray the real 253 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: real world, but they can get close on things that 254 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: matter and not matter necessarily to the storyline, but matter 255 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: for community knowledge. 256 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: Yes, now, mushrooms discuss please know have you have you? 257 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: I had no involvement with that, But have you heard 258 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: of such things happening in other jurisdictions? 259 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: There have always been a few cases fairly regularly around 260 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: poisoning from mushrooms and so on. It happens often, you know, 261 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: accidentally in settings where people are out foraging and then 262 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: cooking them. And we've had cases every few years of 263 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: that sort of thing happening. It happens around the world. 264 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: It's not particularly numerous, and not particularly because not many 265 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: people go out collecting their own mushrooms these days. So 266 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: everybody as a kid, yes, I know, it's changed a lot. 267 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: And we all knew the weather, mushroom weather. You know, 268 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: that was a particular time of year there was a 269 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: shower of rain in autumn and still a bit warm. 270 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: The other the other sort of cases that are poisoning 271 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: things that I think have been really challenging, and I've 272 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: done a fair bit certainly talking to the media about this, 273 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: is the methanol poisonings in the Asia Pacific people on 274 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: their holidays and so on, and that tragic incident a 275 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: few months ago, really and that was something that was 276 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: a horrible scenario. And yet if you look around the 277 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: world and the Medicines on Frontier actually has a very 278 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: good website on this, and you know these are regularly 279 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: happening around the world every month. They actually have a 280 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: sort of list of how many cases have occurred this month, 281 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: and it's been going on for years for almost probably 282 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: probably almost forever actually, And not in terms of people 283 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: adulterating our colors, as I think a lot of the 284 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: modern cases are around, but people having bad home brew 285 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: practices in villages and things like that, when they have 286 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: a celebration and they do a big brewing batch but 287 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: they haven't done it properly and they finished up with 288 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,119 Speaker 1: a lot of methanol. And the problem is that methanol 289 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: really get gets converted in the body in the liver 290 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: to from aldehyde and formic acid and acid and the 291 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: ebalming fluid. So it does a horrible degree of damage 292 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: to somebody. And you know, there are some treatments for it, 293 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: and in fact ethanol is a is a treatment interestingly 294 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: for for methanol poisoning. But so we just need to 295 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: get the message out more and more. 296 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: Please be careful of yes, and these holiday destinations sort 297 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: of let's say, bulk bargain holidays for young people particularly 298 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: yea party islands. Yeah, except where you're not in control 299 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: or can see the drink you get and how it's 300 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: been prepared and things like that. I mean, you can 301 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: never completely protect yourself. Not going to happen at the 302 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: Hilton in the top room. 303 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: With them, That's exactly right, Not unless you've got a 304 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: very corrupt bar. 305 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: Down on the boat with the with the Skelley. 306 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a tragedy because these intend to be 307 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: young people and they really don't do well. No, the 308 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: case Clay and the Hill, Oh yes, yes I was. 309 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: I was involved in the sidelines to that case because 310 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: interestingly I'm also a radiometer and of course Hill was 311 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: a radiometer. So although I didn't give evidence at trial, 312 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: I did actually help the police in terms of looking 313 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: at the you know, his radio. So no, my involved 314 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: was purely in relation to the radio. So the issue 315 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: was whilst this radio operating correctly? So when he stopped transmitting, 316 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: was it because he was no longer trying to transmit 317 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: or was there some fault with the radio? And I 318 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: basically just took one of my radios and took my 319 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: radio in the car out to the police forensic Science 320 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: center and I just checked the radio out make sure 321 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: he was able to transmit on all the frequencies. 322 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: Someone then knew that you were involved in It. 323 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: Was a slightly more complicated saga than that. But because 324 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: they were sent out, they sent out an inquiry in fact, 325 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: the police to the Wireless Institute of Australia which is 326 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: the society for Radiometers, one of the bigger ones perhaps, 327 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: and it went out on their weekly bulletin of Radio News, 328 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 1: which is all on YouTube these days and so on 329 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: as well. I saw it and I said, oh, that's 330 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: that case. And they were asking something about any radiometer 331 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: who had contact with them and so on, and I thought, oh, well, look, 332 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: I'm probably the only forensic radiometer around, so I probably 333 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: ought to just touch base with the investigators and say 334 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: see if there's anything I could do to help, you know, 335 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: And that was what I did. 336 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 2: Here's me imagining that you might have been involved in 337 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: the team that looked at, you know, several thousand body 338 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: fragments and found a little bit of skull fragment that 339 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: had a little bit of lead on it from a shotgun. 340 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: But I had nothing to do with. 341 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: Well, you know, an investigation has lots of avenues, and 342 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: many of those little little avenues or rabbit holes you 343 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: just need to plug up, you know, check it out. 344 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 1: It's okay, nowhere to go there, move on, move on, 345 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: and that's a big part of routine police investigations. 346 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: Indeed, radio one of your many hobbies. Yeah, what other 347 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: hobbies do you have got? Medieval dancing? Quiet? Yeah? What else? 348 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: Well, I'm interested in electronics generally, but a computing interested 349 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: in playing around with these days with AI systems which 350 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: are really interesting to do, but also audio Hi fi. 351 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: That's that sort of stuff. When you were third a 352 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: what did you want to be? 353 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: Well, initial I certainly was in the science side, That's 354 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: where I was going in that science direction. And I 355 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: was certainly biology sort of science, and a bit of 356 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: music and stuff as well. And in fact, it's kind 357 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: of it's a strange story really, and I'm having applied 358 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: to do medicine in the UK, which is where I 359 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: trained originally. I remember rolling up for my interview for 360 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: medical school and I didn't know who the heck. These 361 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: sort of five people were on the interview panel and 362 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: we're interviewing every single student and things like that, and 363 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: someone said to me, you know, so I've got interest 364 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: in medicine, what's the area And I just sort of said, well, 365 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: I do have a bit of an interest in pathology 366 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: and forensic pathology, and they all sort of chuckled and 367 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't quite see why it. 368 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: Was so funny. 369 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: And it turned out that the person on the end 370 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: of the line was the forensic pathologist for the East 371 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: Midlands and was the clinical subdean of the Medical and 372 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: I didn't know him from bar soap, you know. They 373 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: all thought I must have done some detailed research on 374 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: the panel and come up with a which was which 375 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: was not true at all. I later went on to 376 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: work for him, or did my interclatd degree with him, 377 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: because he had interest an especial slung disease. So I 378 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: worked with him on a project for my Bachelor of 379 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: Medical Sciences and and whilst I was working with him 380 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: on this lung project, he would get called out to 381 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: forensic scenes. He would take me as his scribe. So 382 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: I went to my first scenes in the late seventies, 383 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: basically a medical student scribe. I held the clipboard yep, 384 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: and he would he would dictate to me and I 385 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: would write down his notes for him, which was nobody 386 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: could read except me, so I had to translate it back. 387 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, better better than I think he probably was. I've 388 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: never seen writing. I think that learned in the final 389 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 2: year they say that. 390 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: To keep your things very ambiguous. 391 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, farmersists have to learn how to read it exactly. 392 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, he actually usually he taught me, you know, 393 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: never use any form of abbreviation in any of your reports. 394 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: You know, don't do the words, am I say, what 395 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: you mean? Do you mean model incontinence, my cardinal infarction? 396 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: Military intelligence? You know, it's interesting because his view was 397 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: you've got to be so crisp in forensic work. You 398 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: leave no room for doubt about what you're saying. 399 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely true, and there are so many acronyms. Now, yeah, absolutely, 400 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 2: he's just confusing. When did you arrive in Melbourne eighty eight? 401 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: Eighty eight, Yeah, just before the Institute's new building opened, 402 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: which started we started moving in I think of July 403 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: August some time, and it took some some months to 404 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 2: fully develop a new building and getting up and running 405 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: and things like that. And during that time we were 406 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: doing casework in the old building of course, and then 407 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: into the new building. So there were a variety of 408 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: cases I think we had. I think I think this 409 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 2: porter talked about one in her book Written on the Skin, 410 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: which was about a body down a mine shaft. We 411 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: had which was the headless body. 412 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: Down a mind shaft, which was an interesting saga identifying someone, 413 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: And we used quite a lot of interesting techniques medically 414 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: because we still whilst we had actually some good information 415 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: but who might be We had to identify the body 416 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: without a head, and then when the head came to light, 417 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: we had to identify the head. 418 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: Just fill our listeners in on the background of that case. 419 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: How did that all start and who did it end 420 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: up being? 421 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: Well, the names are now, of course a long long 422 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: past my memory. But the interesting thing was that this 423 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: involved some dispute about drugs and money, the usual, the usual, surprise, surprise, surprise, 424 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: and this person had been killed and I think he'd 425 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: been originally buried in the in the banks of a river, 426 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: and then people thought, oh, they might be identifying as 427 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: they moved him down into Victoria and put him down 428 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: a mine shaft. I think then they decided that he 429 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: might still be identified if somebody found him. So they 430 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: went and the mine shaft took his head off and 431 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: they put it somewhere else. Anyway, long story, but there 432 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: was interesting things about him from the frenzy point of view, 433 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 1: was that he did have this sort of strange degree 434 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: of decomposition and then mummification right because he'd been down 435 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: a cool dry mine shaft and so the body was 436 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: quite significantly blackened at that stage. So we used infra 437 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: red light photography to pick up his tattoos which were 438 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: obskewed by the yeap, which were obscured by the decomposition, 439 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: so you couldn't see them. So tattoos are not useless, no, 440 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: And there was a particularly unique characteristic about his tattoos. 441 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: There was a date on it related to a date 442 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: in his life, and I think that in those days, 443 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: I think the prison records he's to keep quite detailed 444 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: the scriptures of tattoos, and there was a sort of 445 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: match between one of these tattoos and the dates and 446 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: things like that. So that's how that was linked. And 447 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: then of course when we finally got given the head, 448 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: then we were able to not only do the den 449 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: for work and things like that, but we're also able 450 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: to match this separation. 451 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: How did they come by the head? 452 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: Was that after they yes, exactly exactly little check to 453 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: them indeed, indeed, but even though and in fact the 454 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: irony of this whole process, whilst they'd left his wallet 455 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: in the back pocket of his gene, so we knew 456 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: who he was. But you know, but that is classic 457 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: sort of what I call classic behaviors. 458 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: They took his head off, yeah, yeah, second attempt, Yeah, 459 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 2: but left the wall, that's I understand, or something exactly so. 460 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: But even so, you know, wallets are transferable. People steal wallets, 461 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: they take, you know, And so you've got to identified 462 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: the body. 463 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: You just can't rely on throw off who knows precisely. 464 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: So you've got again go back to what I said 465 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: before about you know, protocols, procedures. 466 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: You've got to follow protocols and procedures. That is a 467 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: fascinating case. I must read this is book and my 468 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: old colleague indeed, yeah, years ago, I've often thought I'd 469 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: like to look in to how many tatoos there are 470 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: in saiye Australia, Yes, roughly, and work out roughly what 471 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: they cost per square inch or cemeter, Yes, and then 472 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: do a calculation about what the wouldn't pay off the 473 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 2: national debt. 474 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: Well, I think, I mean people have done the research. 475 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: I think Professor Stephen Corder did his Batchelor of Medical 476 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: Science degree looking at tattoos. 477 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 2: Did he? Yeah? 478 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: And I know that one of my colleagues who died 479 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: a few years ago now, who was a Friensygoed ontologist 480 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: John Clement in Melbourne. He had got some of his 481 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: students to do look at it at tattoos in relation 482 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: to the in the early days where with hepatitis C 483 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: and looking at hepatis hepatitis C status of people with 484 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: different level of tattoos, because of course tattoo parlors were 485 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: a problem in those early years in terms of communication 486 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: of infectionous disease. So the tattooes have got a really 487 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: quite a rich, interesting history. You've also got tattoos that 488 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: relate to obviously identification issues between sort of gangs or 489 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: people working in particular industries, let's say, so identification tattoos 490 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: that might be inside lips or inside the eyelids to 491 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: demonstrate one's allegiance to a particular grouping and whether you're 492 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: a trustworthy individual in certain endeavors. These sorts of tattoos 493 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,239 Speaker 1: are fascinating and they you know, they have a few 494 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: of those. I've said a few of those, not many 495 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: of them. 496 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about the ones inside the eyelid. 497 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: Well, then sometimes you get little dots inside the eyelid, 498 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: and I gathered those are also used sometimes to identify 499 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: a person who's trustworthy in certain exchanges. 500 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: That might be might be an Asian triad thing, could 501 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: could be. There's all kinds of different things, and there 502 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: are lots of Albanians they do something like that. Sorry, 503 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: the Albanians. 504 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, different tattoos and things like that. Lots 505 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: of these sorts of things, and it's a it's a 506 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: you know, it's many of these, of course are amateurs done. 507 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: They're not done by the one. Just a little bit 508 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: of ink and needle and so on. So you get 509 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: lots and lots of these different things. And you know, 510 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: I remember once in there was I was in the 511 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: witness box once the in an inquest in relation to 512 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: one of the underworlds or police shooting incidents, and a 513 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: certain barrister started taking me to task about the photograph 514 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: book because the first sort of like twenty photographs were 515 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: just pictures of tattoos. And he was sort of by implication, 516 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: accusing me of taking photographs of tattoos in order to 517 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: disparage the person because they had all these tattoos. And 518 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: I was going, no, I take the pot tattoos to 519 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: demonstrate what was there on the body for a confirmation 520 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: of identity, et cetera, et cetera. Wouldn't take it every tattoo. Well, 521 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: I certainly hope I have, you know, And so again, 522 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, people can misinterpret or give these sort of 523 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: alternative explanations for what you've done. But I go back 524 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: to this sort of slightly boring thing to say, do everything, 525 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: because if you don't do something, someone's going to cross exam. 526 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 2: You're on it. They will, and they can be insufferable 527 00:27:58,920 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: some parrison. 528 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I actually studied law as world medicine, 529 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: which made my life a little bit easier sometimes because 530 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: I knew exactly where they were going and why they 531 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: were going in the direction they were going, and what 532 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: the what the you know what they were likely to 533 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: be trying to argue from some point. So I could 534 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: sometimes use that to close off a point in an 535 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: answer which which could devalue that. But it was certainly 536 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: useful to understand exactly where you know, advocates were coming 537 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: from and they were defending or prosecuting. Indeed, so did 538 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: you do medicine first? I did, Yes, I did medicine first, 539 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: and I was actually training as a pathologist, and then 540 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: I did my law sort of part time while I 541 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: was in my postgraduate training in the UK. Yeah, and 542 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: I never practiced law, and I know intension to practice law, 543 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: but I wanted to use it very much. Well, I 544 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: still wanted to use it more to really understand the 545 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: business I was engaged in. 546 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: It makes you a very interesting expert witness in any way. 547 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: Well, you could go down the wrong path as well, 548 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: you gotta be careful. But it also meant that in 549 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: a conversation with the Parson, I used to really encourage 550 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: not only the Crown but but defense as well to 551 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: discuss things with me. Sometimes they didn't want to. They 552 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: didn't want to sort of I suppose, show their hand perhaps, 553 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: But other times it was much more that that you 554 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: know that it's a busy life, you know, and as 555 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: I said, the friends of pathologies, evidence may not be 556 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: that critical in the overall process, so sometimes they wouldn't 557 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: or didn't think there was a need to do so. 558 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: But I found it really useful to make sure that 559 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: they knew what I was saying and why I was 560 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: saying it, and what could be could be inferred from 561 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: something that I said, because that's their role, not my 562 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: role to make an argument for the court. It's their role, true, 563 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: but they will need to make their argument on some 564 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: facts that could be proven or could be delivered in evidence. 565 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you asked me the questions. I'll answer that that's 566 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: exactly right. And on that note, I think that's when 567 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: most valuable discussion. I thank you Professor Ranson for coming in. 568 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: I know you have many things to do and not 569 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: enough time to do it. It's very kind if. 570 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: You host to be retired. But my wife says I'm. 571 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: Not so she says, you know you're not allowed to. 572 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: Be or well, no, no, it's just I said, to 573 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: be doing lots of different things. 574 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: It is good fun. 575 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what I like. I mean, I know 576 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say friends of mythology and related forensic science 577 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: being good fun, but there is an enjoyment of science 578 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: and the enjoyment of seeing science applied in the interest 579 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: of the community. And I think I like to get 580 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: community informed. I think that's really important. 581 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: It is. And on that note, we shall wind it up. 582 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, sir, Thank you, thanks for listening. Life and 583 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. 584 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: Our producer is Johnny Burton. For my columns, features and more, 585 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, forward slash Andrew 586 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: Rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts 587 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: sold at news dot com dot au. That is all 588 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 2: one word news podcasts sold. And if you want further 589 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: information about this episode, links are in the description.