Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired
Speaker 1: Detective Sergeant Bob Wells. Welcome back, Bob, Please carry. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you've come back. Yes, not that you had anywhere
Speaker 1: to ga.
Speaker 2: That's a stage. That's all good.
Speaker 1: If you listen to part one of our chat, we
Speaker 1: talked about Bob's career, a lot of which was spent
Speaker 1: out working in the bush as a country cop, and
Speaker 1: how he became a detective. When we finished off part
Speaker 1: one with Bob, we're talking about a crime scene he
Speaker 1: was called to where a man, John Price, had been murdered.
Speaker 1: We're going to pick up from that crime scene. And
Speaker 1: I think at the start of part one I gave
Speaker 1: a listener warning that it's fairly graphic details we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking about, so just fore warning. The nature
Speaker 1: of the crime was quite brutal and quite macab Bob,
Speaker 1: we had you at the scene. What was the address
Speaker 1: or what was the town?
Speaker 3: Was it Aberdeen? I think from memory now is twenty
Speaker 3: four years ago. It was twenty five so and Andrews Street, Aberdeen.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're there. I'd just bring everyone up to date.
Speaker 1: If they missed part one. You've been called out. There's
Speaker 1: been concerned for welfare because John didn't turn up for work. Yes,
Speaker 1: and he had told his workmates that, look, if I'd
Speaker 1: turn up, this lady, I'm saying, Catherine.
Speaker 2: Is as possibly I've been killed by being killed.
Speaker 1: They've turned up the doors shut, they see some blood
Speaker 1: at the front door. They call the cops. The cops
Speaker 1: go there, gain entry into the place, and they find
Speaker 1: John's skin hanging from a hook and then they've looked
Speaker 1: further into the house. What else have they seen?
Speaker 3: Well, if they've gone to the down the hallway which
Speaker 3: was which there was a huge amount of blood in
Speaker 3: various splatters as you would call it, and also with
Speaker 3: hand hand marks on it as well. They've found who
Speaker 3: we've since found to be Catherine Knight Carmo, tasting the
Speaker 3: bed which was John Bryce's bedroom. They've managed to sort
Speaker 3: of bring her around in a groggy state talk he
Speaker 3: sat on the back steps initially lead to the house
Speaker 3: whilst they've decided that look, this is a this is
Speaker 3: something that soon now needs to be Graham Furlonger was
Speaker 3: a formative technic sergeant and then shift supervisor, knew the
Speaker 3: ropes as far as serious crimes go, and said, this
Speaker 3: is this has got to be sailed off until we
Speaker 3: get the we get the guys here from crime scene.
Speaker 3: So which which I which? When I got there, I
Speaker 3: just had a quick cursory look at the at what
Speaker 3: at what Gary and Scotty James had seen the same thing.
Speaker 1: Could you could you take in what you were seeing?
Speaker 3: Not well, well you could take it in because it
Speaker 3: was it was right in front of you, but right
Speaker 3: right there and then you thought, this is just this
Speaker 3: is one out of the box. This is this is
Speaker 3: something that's going to not just be a short, sharp
Speaker 3: murder investigation, sheerly because of the scale of.
Speaker 2: What had happened to the victim.
Speaker 3: Because I was going to get out, you know, And
Speaker 3: Graham said, Graham, I remember, Graham Furlong, I did something, mate,
Speaker 3: You'll need to have a look at the pot on
Speaker 3: the stave, which I did, which contained the head of
Speaker 3: John Price with a number of vegetables.
Speaker 1: So doing it in it So we're talking the pot
Speaker 1: on the stove with wader ahead and vegetables in there and.
Speaker 3: Have been cooked. Yes, so you know. But and I
Speaker 3: was just saying, this is this has just got to
Speaker 3: be sealed off. It's one of those crime scenes. No
Speaker 3: one goes in, no one go out. Scottie just stayed
Speaker 3: near the door, start a log, those sorts of things,
Speaker 3: just that routine stuff that would go through as a detective.
Speaker 3: And and we.
Speaker 1: You're saying routine. But Bob, Yeah, when you go look
Speaker 1: into a kitchen, then you're seeing describe what you saw.
Speaker 3: Well, I had a good I had a look at
Speaker 3: the skin hanging on the doorway.
Speaker 2: I saw John Price's body was in one piece.
Speaker 3: I was later on to find out from the forensic
Speaker 3: pathologist who him back together that it would come off
Speaker 3: in one section. It was all whole, the you know,
Speaker 3: the finger tips.
Speaker 1: To the end of the days skinned yep, okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: I interrupted.
Speaker 3: Now you're right, and so it was. I then contacted
Speaker 3: the forensic services guys, Neil Raymond and Permacio, and they're
Speaker 3: on their way and I sort of had a conversation
Speaker 3: about what it was and I think the worlds particular
Speaker 3: over in.
Speaker 2: Neil Raymon's head.
Speaker 3: Particularly, And when they got there, Uel said, mate, this
Speaker 3: is We're going to need more than still photographs of
Speaker 3: this soon. He said, My suggestion is it might take
Speaker 3: a while, but we need to get the video unit
Speaker 3: up from Sydney, which they did, and they methodically went
Speaker 3: through that crime scene by video with the with the
Speaker 3: crime with the video unit guys as they did their
Speaker 3: crime scene investigative work.
Speaker 1: And what was what was discovered in the crime scene
Speaker 1: described the.
Speaker 3: Well basically basically John Price had obviously been in bed.
Speaker 3: He'd been attacked viciously with a large bladed, wooden handled
Speaker 3: knife which got basically a butcher's knife, probably more a
Speaker 3: boning than a flirting knife, and he's obviously taken flight
Speaker 3: and I'm having the soon described me basically by the
Speaker 3: forensic Service guys scientific cops as I called him in
Speaker 3: those days, and that he was making his way down
Speaker 3: the hallway while he's continually being stabbed them and probably
Speaker 3: probably through the forensic examination of the guy from Newcastle,
Speaker 3: was that eventually he was struck a failed blow through
Speaker 3: the back into the heart around short of the front door.
Speaker 3: He's managed to open the front door because there was
Speaker 3: bloodstained fingers. He's on the front he's managed to get
Speaker 3: the front door open and about to get outside when
Speaker 3: he's obviously became deceased and the front door was slam shut,
Speaker 3: and he was obviously left to what was going to
Speaker 3: happen to him from there on.
Speaker 1: So what where was his body? You've described where his
Speaker 1: skin was.
Speaker 3: We're just aside the front door. There's like a lot
Speaker 3: of entrance ways the houses. There's as old corktiles on
Speaker 3: the floor. There was that section in there and half
Speaker 3: onto the carpet where we stepped into the land room.
Speaker 2: His body was in there.
Speaker 1: And he was decapitated. Yes, skin, yes, any other injuries
Speaker 1: obvious injuries.
Speaker 3: To multiple multiple stab wounds more so noticeable through the
Speaker 3: post mortem examination by I'm trying to think of the
Speaker 3: forensic pathologists name. He said, Look, there's up to thirty
Speaker 3: seven stab wounds throughout his body, Okay, which were evident
Speaker 3: also through the skin when it was and when he
Speaker 3: was put back together.
Speaker 1: Basically, right, you've you've found Catherine Knight that she's described
Speaker 1: a camatoes laying in the bed in John's bed, and
Speaker 1: then she's been taken out.
Speaker 3: Yes, she was taken out. And actually as I arrived,
Speaker 3: that was who was going into the ambulance to leave
Speaker 3: Judy Simpson, who was.
Speaker 1: Did you know at this stage you were going to
Speaker 1: be running the investigation?
Speaker 3: Well it was our area.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a detective.
Speaker 3: That was my job.
Speaker 2: So you you assumed control of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I was called because I made I
Speaker 3: was a senior detective in the in the Lacks.
Speaker 2: That was my job.
Speaker 3: My job is to decide that I'm going to do
Speaker 3: it or or how we do it. But yeah, it
Speaker 3: was my job. So and that's my responsibilit because that
Speaker 3: was my area. Everybody likes to everybody likes to have
Speaker 3: control of their patch. Area, No, I understand, so certain,
Speaker 3: just some instructions to dy make sure they get some
Speaker 3: scrapings under her fingernails, different things, all those sort the
Speaker 3: things that.
Speaker 1: She was under arrest.
Speaker 2: She wasn't under.
Speaker 3: Arrest, right, She was in custody basically, I guess she
Speaker 3: would say under the new terms with two thousand, because
Speaker 3: she had a police officer with her. But she wasn't going.
Speaker 1: Anywhere because she was she was foggy down in the
Speaker 1: nitty grit.
Speaker 3: She was, she was really groggy. She wasn't going anywhere,
Speaker 3: and she was taking to Mayland Hospital where she was
Speaker 3: placed into the psychiatric ward because once the hospital found
Speaker 3: out why she was.
Speaker 2: There that she was, she was put straight.
Speaker 3: They think there must be something mentally wrong with this
Speaker 3: woman because of what she alleged she's done. So she
Speaker 3: went to the sight. Would where where she was I
Speaker 3: guess tranquilized medicated would be, I guess because.
Speaker 2: Until we knew what.
Speaker 3: Was going on, I think that was the decision's medical
Speaker 3: practitioners to continue to medicate it. But I think they
Speaker 3: medicated it also because she'd taken a lot of prescription medication,
Speaker 3: mainly painkillers those sorts of things. But which we found
Speaker 3: out later through the investigation that it would have It
Speaker 3: would have made her quite sick. It would have made
Speaker 3: a drowsy and put her asleep, but it wasn't going
Speaker 3: to kill her. So obviously we've looked at her, we're
Speaker 3: looking we were looking at a potential murder suicide if
Speaker 3: she passed away. But the doctor said, mate, she hasn't
Speaker 3: consumed enough to kill her, so she's going to eventually
Speaker 3: wake up. So how they medicated her through that to
Speaker 3: get her up And basically she was never under guard
Speaker 3: in that in that psychiatric wood.
Speaker 2: Because she was they weren't going to let her out.
Speaker 1: I've been speaking to people in there. It's a cured era,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, get out.
Speaker 3: So we were left with, Okay, she's not going anywhere.
Speaker 3: We've got this crime scene which the guys are coming done.
Speaker 2: It was video.
Speaker 3: Recorded, and it was a matter of okay, we've got
Speaker 3: these guys. He'd made it was about time to start
Speaker 3: getting some statements and commencing a brief of evidence. And
Speaker 3: that's all we got about doing, was you know, and
Speaker 3: as you know, in investigation, one statement lease to another statement,
Speaker 3: loose one other statement.
Speaker 1: Where you'd be starting with these workmates and the person
Speaker 1: that called the part.
Speaker 3: And you know, and because it was like a little
Speaker 3: place like Aberdeen, it was a big thing. It was
Speaker 3: a big because everybody knows everybody. You know, it's one
Speaker 3: of those more country towns again where one happens in
Speaker 3: Downstown Erskineville. Some people wouldn't bannle it at it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: another murder or some parts of Sydney.
Speaker 2: It's just a but it.
Speaker 3: Was a big thing for a town like that. And
Speaker 3: of course everybody went to everybody and that everybody's chin
Speaker 3: was wagging out of control and.
Speaker 2: People came forward.
Speaker 3: See I saw I saw it her two o'clock walking
Speaker 3: back towards the house.
Speaker 2: You know, in the thongs. Well you're a loud of it.
Speaker 3: She just looked like she was in a trance walking
Speaker 3: back to the house. This woman puts a dog out
Speaker 3: it every morning at two o'clock and runs out of
Speaker 3: the lawn as a leak, runs back inside. It just
Speaker 3: so happened it this morning, same thing, she's walking back towards.
Speaker 2: The house, you know.
Speaker 3: So there was just statement aftter statement saying to get
Speaker 3: to build this brief because we knew there was probably
Speaker 3: going to be a number of days delay in getting
Speaker 3: an opportunity, if we were ever going to get an
Speaker 3: opportunity to an interviewer, whether she would have been capable
Speaker 3: to be interviewed, because this is the big thing you
Speaker 3: think about, well, you know, and we're ever going to
Speaker 3: get a chance and anyway.
Speaker 1: So in those days, you're gathering as much evidence as
Speaker 1: you can with statements. Did it start to paint a
Speaker 1: picture in your mind?
Speaker 3: Painted a picture that it wasn't rosy in a relationship,
Speaker 3: painted a picture that they could have a blue at
Speaker 3: any time, But it didn't paint a picture of what
Speaker 3: had happened. It was just the messy situation where they
Speaker 3: didn't they got on to start with. I think because
Speaker 3: it was a new relationship for them both again, and
Speaker 3: sex is a big part of a new relationship and
Speaker 3: those sort of things, things are rosy. When he got
Speaker 3: down to the nitty gritty and a bit of reality
Speaker 3: sets in, things started to changing a little bit for
Speaker 3: a lot of couples, and I think and it was
Speaker 3: they'd burned together for quite a while, so maybe it
Speaker 3: was just coming towards itatural end. And as I progress
Speaker 3: through the information, I sort of got more of a
Speaker 3: clearer picture of why she may have taken such drastic
Speaker 3: measures as what she did.
Speaker 1: In gathering the evidence. Did you did you turn over
Speaker 1: her place?
Speaker 3: Turn her place over down it with a search warrant
Speaker 3: then on the main highway in Aberdeen. And it was
Speaker 3: a house that was full of horror movies. How he
Speaker 3: had a fixation for all sorts of horror movies, all
Speaker 3: genres of horror. I think there was still a lot.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of DVDs were sort of on the
Speaker 3: rise in that era. There was both so moving to
Speaker 3: a more modern toile collection than others, but it was
Speaker 3: all horror. There was a huge amount of stuffed animals
Speaker 3: throughout the house, but a lot of a huge library
Speaker 3: of horror movies.
Speaker 2: How many are we doing? I probably talk him probably
Speaker 2: one hundred or more. You know, they were creepy.
Speaker 3: Well that's but all that sort of stuff that people into.
Speaker 1: Horror by the stuffed animals as in toysh.
Speaker 3: No no like birds and eagles and all sorts of
Speaker 3: natural wildlife for.
Speaker 2: A fauna straight out of those sorts of things.
Speaker 3: So it was sort of and it was a dank,
Speaker 3: dark house, you know, and there was I think a
Speaker 3: little bit of premeditation started to end in my mind
Speaker 3: when because the evidence flowed that she was at her
Speaker 3: his house in her car, then it was gone at
Speaker 3: a certain time of night, was taken back to her house.
Speaker 3: It had driven right into the backyard of a place
Speaker 3: like it was a possession thing. Someone around midnight, at
Speaker 3: a minute to midnight was at Musclebrook with his key card,
Speaker 3: took five hundred dollars out, waited for a minute past
Speaker 3: midnight to take another five hundred out because obviously.
Speaker 2: Had a limit of five hundred on his account.
Speaker 3: Prettymede knew enough was in the mind of enough to
Speaker 3: be able to go and do that sort of activity
Speaker 3: with a cup card with his Cree card.
Speaker 2: And then because the Creek card was found back at the.
Speaker 1: Scene, okay, so this is prior or post the murder.
Speaker 1: You're thinking, this is post the murder, okay.
Speaker 3: And then she's gone back to the premises after getting
Speaker 3: rid of her she's obviously on the muscle Brook yeap,
Speaker 3: taking the money out, taking the cash somewhere to her home,
Speaker 3: I would imagine, or someone her car back to her
Speaker 3: own home and parked by the backyard, so that was
Speaker 3: on her property. And then we're seenhim walking back to
Speaker 3: the scene at two am.
Speaker 1: That's that I would be thinking, putting the homicide had on,
Speaker 1: how do we get to this, you'd be looking that's
Speaker 1: good evidence to rebut any mental health issues, isn't It's she's.
Speaker 2: Pretty switch on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like there's no insanity that as a defense
Speaker 1: when she's capable of Okay, well, I can withdraw money,
Speaker 1: I can cover the tracks. I know what I've done
Speaker 1: is wrong, and I'm going to try and cover my tracks.
Speaker 3: But I think the money was possibly because of the
Speaker 3: attempt to take her own life relation to the prescription medication.
Speaker 3: The money was for someone because you had young children yourself. Okay,
Speaker 3: that's a summation at that stage. But no money was
Speaker 3: ever found, and that was the search of a car
Speaker 3: the premises the whole boxing. I say, whether someone else
Speaker 3: was involved or she'd burned this to someone, Yeah, that
Speaker 3: was not established at that stage.
Speaker 1: So how many days after you've attended the crime scene
Speaker 1: are we looking at before you got to speak to her.
Speaker 3: The afternoon of the next day, Because we worked all
Speaker 3: through that first night and the end of the next day.
Speaker 3: I sort of had a bit of an episode where
Speaker 3: I thought that this was getting a bit much.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So I was sort of heading home and I sort
Speaker 3: of took a bit of a.
Speaker 2: Bit of a left turn and went down to and
Speaker 2: I spoke.
Speaker 3: I rang Phil Lloyd, who was prosecutor at Newcastle and
Speaker 3: a well respected coscutter, and he said, come down, come
Speaker 3: down home, and we'll have a couple of beers and
Speaker 3: we'll just see how things work. So I had it,
Speaker 3: went down to Phil's house and we spent some time
Speaker 3: and said, look, I said, I think I'm going to
Speaker 3: get a chance to interview this girl, this woman, and
Speaker 3: I'm thinking that I might make applications if I get
Speaker 3: the video unit, because it was only ever going to
Speaker 3: be done in the hospital. And Phil said, that's a
Speaker 3: good idea. What we'll do is we'll get the video unit.
Speaker 3: And he said I'll come up that day and we'll interviewer,
Speaker 3: or you can interview her. And he said, oh wait outside,
Speaker 3: but he just put my toes a little bit to say, mate,
Speaker 3: it's not going to get on top of you.
Speaker 2: I've only got one person interview.
Speaker 3: So I took Phil's guidance and appreciated it very much.
Speaker 3: He said, right that sort of perked me up a
Speaker 3: little bit more confident. So about three days later, I've
Speaker 3: got the opportunity to interviewer at Maitland Hospital.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you went in there with the video opera.
Speaker 3: Well, first off, I made sure I had plenty of
Speaker 3: paperwork from the hospital to say that she's able to
Speaker 3: be interviewed. She's aware, she's she's got all faculties about her.
Speaker 3: She's not saying any signs of she's been assessed by
Speaker 3: psycho psychiatrists too, said that look she's fine to she's lucid,
Speaker 3: she understands, she's alert, she's.
Speaker 2: She can receive retain relay, that's information, so she can
Speaker 2: say she can be interviewed.
Speaker 3: She had a barrister and young solicitor there and the
Speaker 3: barrister said, look, it won't take long. She says she
Speaker 3: can't remember anything, so just go in there and run
Speaker 3: through the motions.
Speaker 2: She's going to tell you.
Speaker 3: She doesn't know what happened, she's got no idea and
Speaker 3: so you'll only.
Speaker 2: Be in there five minutes. So we went and.
Speaker 3: Close to an hour of an hour later we came
Speaker 3: out to a nation face. Barrister doesn't know what she said.
Speaker 3: Her solicitor was in there with that during the interview.
Speaker 3: But the interview sort of went from I think she
Speaker 3: really had a lot to say, but it wasn't about
Speaker 3: what she'd done, it was about what had happened to
Speaker 3: her during her life.
Speaker 1: Did you put the information to her that this is
Speaker 1: what we're found when we've come into the premises, you
Speaker 1: are asleep in the bed and card all that.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, nothing was put well to her. Nothing was
Speaker 3: not put to her, nothing at all. But and because
Speaker 3: the allegation had to be there for her, allegedly us
Speaker 3: thinking that she was going to say, look, I've got
Speaker 3: no idea what happened. I've got nothing to say, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, just but she just started to talk about
Speaker 3: this is I can tell you what's happened to me
Speaker 3: over the years. And I don't know, I can't really
Speaker 3: remember the word for word interview, but basically the crux
Speaker 3: of the story was that she'd been through a number
Speaker 3: of relationships. She had a very hard upbringing as a child,
Speaker 3: had had a father who was abusive towards a mother
Speaker 3: sexually and physically, with a almost.
Speaker 2: On a daily basis.
Speaker 3: As she witnessed and moved the rent moved on to
Speaker 3: her relationships through the years of one marriage and then
Speaker 3: three mile partners afterwards, and basically.
Speaker 2: I just kept it going. Just will tell me about it.
Speaker 3: And it was probably after we got to the second
Speaker 3: partner after her husband, John Chillingworth. Mind you, she had
Speaker 3: she had children to all of these first three men
Speaker 3: for John Prist, and I thought, well, just let it
Speaker 3: go and that's what she's and then then then started
Speaker 3: the twig. Well, if this is the case, it can
Speaker 3: be there can be two scenarios. So these things really
Speaker 3: happened to her, which forced her to say, look, I've snapped,
Speaker 3: I've had enough for this. I'm not going to go
Speaker 3: through this again with John Price, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: fucking get him, you know. Or she's leading me down
Speaker 3: a path of I'm a better wife and this is
Speaker 3: what's happened to me trying to build the defense, and
Speaker 3: this is what she's going to present a trial. So
Speaker 3: you just got to let the interview go the way
Speaker 3: it goes. You know that as far as what she'd
Speaker 3: actually done, could remember, I had no idea.
Speaker 2: I don't remember that.
Speaker 3: Okay, But I had a woman who could remember finite
Speaker 3: details as she told me about what happened to her
Speaker 3: through her life with her male partners, husband of male
Speaker 3: partners over the years, but not even the sheer resemblance
Speaker 3: of what took part three nights earlier to what happened to.
Speaker 2: John Price selective memory loss. It's always interesting.
Speaker 3: When you interview someone, you spend a lot of eye
Speaker 3: contact with them, you know, and generally not a lot
Speaker 3: comes out of that, especially when someone is saying that
Speaker 3: I can't remember things, but this Sometimes you might have
Speaker 3: a pause and a little bit of a break and
Speaker 3: you'll just catch their eye with your eye. And I
Speaker 3: did it on one occasion. It happened to me, and
Speaker 3: it left me with an impression that she knows. She's
Speaker 3: just not going there, never going to go there. It's
Speaker 3: a movement of the eye and it's a swallow that
Speaker 3: they are, just a facial expression that they make that
Speaker 3: you know that I could spend days here continuing with
Speaker 3: this stuff, but I'm never going to get her to say, yeah,
Speaker 3: I murdered him or I killed him, or I did
Speaker 3: this or I did that on that night. It was
Speaker 3: never going to go there. So I just had to
Speaker 3: take it to the end of where what she wanted
Speaker 3: to tell me about what happened to her and leave
Speaker 3: me with a ruster's why she might have done what
Speaker 3: she'd done, even know she wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Admit to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's yeah, that's all you can get in
Speaker 1: that those circumstances you touched on there, that you got
Speaker 1: that glimpse and I know that that subtle body movement
Speaker 1: or something that you picked up that this is I.
Speaker 3: Know you know, had to lend me. Yeah a little bit.
Speaker 1: What was your overall impression of it. Did she come
Speaker 1: across as a normal person, like guilty of a crime
Speaker 1: like that or capable of committing a crime like that?
Speaker 1: Did she give off an unusual vibe to her when
Speaker 1: you were speaking to her, or how did she present?
Speaker 3: It was like a little bit like Jacky and Hyde,
Speaker 3: where Jekyl had a lot of things happened to them
Speaker 3: in their life and Hyde says, I haven't done anything.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So it was that sort of interview and that sort
Speaker 3: of thing.
Speaker 2: But looks she was in stature.
Speaker 3: She is quite a tall woman, quite strong looking, hardened,
Speaker 3: never broke down at all when she spoke, even when
Speaker 3: she spoke about what had happened to her in the past.
Speaker 3: It was just like this has happened to me. And
Speaker 3: I don't know whether she was maybe giving it, but
Speaker 3: I got through that because I'm tough or you know,
Speaker 3: it was just a weird feeling. So I ended that
Speaker 3: interview with, well, what have I got here? You know,
Speaker 3: I think I've got a defense being presented to me.
Speaker 3: Where this is going to go when it gets a trial,
Speaker 3: because this is definitely going a trial. And so it
Speaker 3: was the better why syndrome that and look, if that
Speaker 3: was the case, I had to go and investigate that
Speaker 3: matter deceive if it was that case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got to You've got to rebuff all yeah.
Speaker 3: Exactly that evidence. And to be fair to everybody, you've
Speaker 3: got to be fair as fear to them as you
Speaker 3: can to be is fear to everybody else. Everybody else
Speaker 3: deserves fairness in all these sorts of things. And that's
Speaker 3: where you go, and that's right to go. So off
Speaker 3: I was getting read off, I go, you.
Speaker 1: Know, speaking to her ex partners people that know her, Yes, yep.
Speaker 1: And did it did it come back like the way
Speaker 1: that she was representing?
Speaker 2: No, no it didn't.
Speaker 3: So when I presented there was four male people that
Speaker 3: were in this scenario. Her first husband, David kill It,
Speaker 3: her second, the fact their partnered David Saunders. Her third,
Speaker 3: John Chillingworth, and there was price. Apart from price, the
Speaker 3: first three were a lot smaller men, all very similar,
Speaker 3: but that good workers, big drinkers, and that's you know,
Speaker 3: love to be. That was seven days a week, but
Speaker 3: that was their life.
Speaker 2: But they all worked.
Speaker 3: And but they were all similar, stature, the same, and
Speaker 3: all very similar in character, you know. So to interview
Speaker 3: them all was to have a complete opposite picture, you know,
Speaker 3: And a lot of the what they told me was
Speaker 3: was backed up with with medical evidence, you know. Like
Speaker 3: I remember David Sawner said to me, he said, mate,
Speaker 3: I put it in his statements, he said.
Speaker 2: I he said, I.
Speaker 3: Was a bit frightened, But he said, not that frightened
Speaker 3: to begin with. But she could snap very easily, and
Speaker 3: we'd have a lot of verbal arguments. But he so,
Speaker 3: I remember one night I came and joined me out.
Speaker 3: He said, not come from the pub, he said. And
Speaker 3: when I say late, he said, I wasn't hours late.
Speaker 3: So I didn't stagger in a four in the morning.
Speaker 3: He said, I came here twenty minutes late, and she
Speaker 3: was When I say she ironed me out. She was
Speaker 3: standing behind the kitchen door as I came in, and
Speaker 3: as I turned around to see her, that's the last
Speaker 3: thing I remember, because she's hit me with the steam.
Speaker 3: Iine in a fist, breaking the jaw in multiple places.
Speaker 3: I wake up his muscle. The hospital wired up lock a.
Speaker 2: You know. Was she charged with that.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure whether he decided to bet on with
Speaker 3: that assault.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he might have.
Speaker 3: He could have. I can't remember. And John Chillingworth was
Speaker 3: the next. And then after there was another incident with
Speaker 3: Saunders about twelve months later where he was laid having
Speaker 3: the pub again not extremeulate. His dog had just had
Speaker 3: a litter of pups and as he got home, she
Speaker 3: came out the back and she held one of the
Speaker 3: pups and cut her head off in front of him,
Speaker 3: and she said, if you fucking come home late any
Speaker 3: more from the pub, you'll get the same thing.
Speaker 2: That's creepy. That's creepy.
Speaker 3: That was That was the last draw. That was the
Speaker 3: last straw. That was the last straw for David Saunders.
Speaker 3: He was out, he was I snuck out. I snuck
Speaker 3: up that morning at two a m. With what clothes
Speaker 3: I was wearing.
Speaker 2: And left best decision his mate. He had to leave his.
Speaker 3: Daughter, young daughter behind with with that biggest That's the
Speaker 3: way it was. And then you know, she just then
Speaker 3: moved straight on to John Chillingworth.
Speaker 2: Did he have a story like that? Basically he was.
Speaker 2: He was. I said I was assaulted a lot. And
Speaker 2: he had a little bit of that.
Speaker 3: Man thing about him where he's trying to not make
Speaker 3: himself look weak, I guess. But he said, you know,
Speaker 3: she would just attack me in the car when I'm
Speaker 3: driving and pull my glasses off and twist him up
Speaker 3: and break them and throw me out the window and
Speaker 3: all those sorts of things and just laying the me
Speaker 3: in punch. And he was quite a passive sort of guy, Johnny,
Speaker 3: I would never hit a woman, he said, no, you
Speaker 3: know I suffered black eyes. I did, and there was
Speaker 3: medical of he had to go to a hospital one
Speaker 3: time and be treated for I think a broken nose
Speaker 3: or something. But he said, I've actually got a pair
Speaker 3: of old glasses here. You know it Saw went into
Speaker 3: the brief. I've got a pair of glasses took my
Speaker 3: face and screwed up. You know, I had to wear
Speaker 3: them sort of a bit weird until I got a
Speaker 3: new set of glasses, but he said, for some reason,
Speaker 3: I've always hung on to them. So that went in
Speaker 3: the brief. That was an exhibit. There's all those sorts
Speaker 3: of things.
Speaker 1: So you're building up a case here and that you're
Speaker 1: rebutting the evidence or the things that she told you
Speaker 1: and showing that and not be completely the opposite.
Speaker 3: And I can only run the brief on what she
Speaker 3: told me in that interview, you know, and what the
Speaker 3: other witness has said, but basically to interviewer and get
Speaker 3: the opportunity to interview. But you know, you always you
Speaker 3: always wanted to know why why would you do that?
Speaker 2: Why would you do that?
Speaker 3: Why would you do that?
Speaker 2: And that is with an exclamation mark that you know.
Speaker 1: The post more than examination and the forensic pathologists. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure this would have formed part of the brief.
Speaker 1: How difficult it this?
Speaker 3: Is?
Speaker 1: It to skinner person?
Speaker 3: Stunning four cuts but complete all together?
Speaker 1: And how long would it take and what sort.
Speaker 3: Of well I guess that's that's a question for a
Speaker 3: skilled fillter or b Yeah, because she was an avatar worker.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's the type of thing that she was
Speaker 1: very skilled with knives, Okay, very skilled.
Speaker 2: And loved her knives.
Speaker 3: Her first husband, David Killer, when they were married, she
Speaker 3: attacked him the first night they were, on their wedding night.
Speaker 3: Gave him a bit of a hiding because he only
Speaker 3: had six three times in their wedding night where where
Speaker 3: she was told by her mother that her father had
Speaker 3: six six times with.
Speaker 2: Her mother on their wedding night. So he fell short.
Speaker 3: He fell short, so he said, mate, flog me, beat me.
Speaker 2: And they used to. She used to mount the knives
Speaker 2: above the bed. Loved knives, love the knives, you know,
Speaker 2: so talk about red flags warnings. Eventually he just he left.
Speaker 3: They had a couple children together, and then John Chillingworth.
Speaker 3: They had a boy, him and Catherine Knight. But John
Speaker 3: was the same. He said, I just got me in
Speaker 3: the end. He said, all the ways I could work
Speaker 3: out to try and pacify never worked, and he said,
Speaker 3: I just got me down.
Speaker 2: So I just left and led me.
Speaker 1: Youngl Okay, how long into the investigation from the time
Speaker 1: and the murder, did you form the view that she's.
Speaker 2: Going to be charged? She was charged that day. Okay.
Speaker 3: So after the interview, Phil Phil Lloyd was waiting outside
Speaker 3: and because look it was a homicide. We knew she'd
Speaker 3: communed this homicide because there was too much physical evidence.
Speaker 3: There was just preciously there was just there was no
Speaker 3: other explanation she done it. And I was quite confident
Speaker 3: that after the interview that she needed to be charged
Speaker 3: and some form of cussing decision made for her. So
Speaker 3: it was actually Filloyd and I drove her back in
Speaker 3: the hospital. Does she required any hospitalization any longer? Nope,
Speaker 3: She's right to go. So we drove it to Newcastle
Speaker 3: Police station with she was formally charged there. Yeah, bar refused,
Speaker 3: bar refused, Yeah, and she remained bar refused. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure whether she made any concerted attempts really through the
Speaker 3: Supreme Court to get bail.
Speaker 1: When did the Like you're running the investigation, so you've
Speaker 1: got a lot of things happening. Was at the point
Speaker 1: of when when she was charged and the facts were
Speaker 1: presented at the court. When did it hit the media?
Speaker 1: Because I remember it, but I was in the cops,
Speaker 1: so we were hearing it sort of the direct.
Speaker 2: When did it with the cops?
Speaker 3: Event the cops went, the event went through well, look
Speaker 3: a little town like Aberdeen. The press were the press
Speaker 3: were there by the afternoon. Actually the press were there
Speaker 3: by lunchtime really because they got pleae scanners say, can
Speaker 3: hear what's going?
Speaker 2: But did they know the nature of the It was
Speaker 2: a fairly horrific murder. They weren't really aware of.
Speaker 3: The press had worked out something, something.
Speaker 2: Bad and it was a bad murder. It wasn't it
Speaker 2: wasn't good.
Speaker 3: But once the facts hit court probably three days later,
Speaker 3: that's when it was like front page news. And that's
Speaker 3: like when when she was going for just a routine
Speaker 3: court here, because everything was through the muscle Brook Court
Speaker 3: at that stage until I could get it back to
Speaker 3: Newcastle really made it easy for custody reasons and different
Speaker 3: things of transportation. But by the end it was any
Speaker 3: time she was making an appearance of court, it there
Speaker 3: was water wall cameras and photographers and reporters and so
Speaker 3: it was a big girl because it was it was
Speaker 3: a big deal, because that's those sorts of things you know,
Speaker 3: we got back twenty four years ago in Australia. It
Speaker 3: wasn't well worldwide, it's not a big thing, you know,
Speaker 3: And of course we know how the press like to
Speaker 3: they up the anti things, you know, and she was
Speaker 3: known as the Australia's Hannibal Lecter. She was known as this,
Speaker 3: she was known as that, And that money came from
Speaker 3: the fact that once once the facts did hit court,
Speaker 3: they realized that the head in the pot, They realized
Speaker 3: that she'd removed parts of his rump and baked it
Speaker 3: in the oven and cooked vegetables with his head, and
Speaker 3: then dished up two plates of his rump and vegetables
Speaker 3: and put two of John Price's children's names on those plates.
Speaker 2: Whils.
Speaker 3: So once once that was found out, by the principle
Speaker 3: that really they really went into overdrive.
Speaker 2: Australia's an Ableekta she.
Speaker 1: She she wanted to feed these kids him.
Speaker 2: I don't know if she actually wanted to, but Walter
Speaker 2: Miles were prepared, They were prepared, and the kids kids
Speaker 2: often came around.
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's that's part of Gary, That's part of the.
Speaker 2: Why why do that? You know?
Speaker 3: And there word that in it?
Speaker 2: Why kill someone?
Speaker 3: But why that that extra yard? You know, that's the
Speaker 3: that's the full nine yards.
Speaker 1: And I think the question you're asking yourself, I am,
Speaker 1: is why everyone's sort of fascinated by this?
Speaker 2: It's just so bizarre.
Speaker 3: Ye, it were strange, so I mean there's been mutilation, murders.
Speaker 2: And different things, but this was out of the box.
Speaker 1: It was you know, no, well, you've been in the
Speaker 1: cops long enough, so have I. We've seen the brutality
Speaker 1: of murder scenes, but this is just it's it's not
Speaker 1: just killing the person, it's the post activities that really
Speaker 1: is quite quite concerning. How long before she pleaded not guilty,
Speaker 1: pleuted not guilty? Okay, how long did it take to
Speaker 1: get the trial?
Speaker 2: I think was within the eighteen months.
Speaker 3: It was set down first Maitland District Court that's where
Speaker 3: our label court was going to be. Panel the jury
Speaker 3: took a little while because there was a few people
Speaker 3: in the jury that now from miam Town. I know
Speaker 3: the Techne well, so I've done him since he was
Speaker 3: Can I get out of this dur That's what jurors do,
Speaker 3: see missus Lee and these people that I knew, so
Speaker 3: they are right. So And Frank Akoiffe was was the
Speaker 3: Supreme Court Justice Johnny's father. He was, he was, he
Speaker 3: was I thought, a great judge think in this matter.
Speaker 3: But the panel the jury were ready to go, and
Speaker 3: there was an application.
Speaker 2: Made that.
Speaker 3: In the absence of the jury then they've just gone
Speaker 3: through the formalities as they do with the Crown and
Speaker 3: the defense and the fence man application that when the
Speaker 3: crime scene evidence goes in and especially the crime scene video,
Speaker 3: that the he accused be exempted from being in court.
Speaker 3: And of course Frank a people woudn't have any part
Speaker 3: of it. He said, no, she will be in here.
Speaker 3: She will be in here for that, for any other
Speaker 3: evidence that goes before this court in relation to this matter,
Speaker 3: the accused will be in the court. And that's sort
Speaker 3: of I think that was a little bit of a
Speaker 3: hard blade to take and on instructions, I think that
Speaker 3: night we came back to court the next day reader
Speaker 3: go with our first witness was an application in that
Speaker 3: they were prepared to plead to murder, and of course,
Speaker 3: as you know, with a even a guilty plea of murder,
Speaker 3: we still had to present all the evidence with a
Speaker 3: number of witnesses. So, because Frank Kof is the explained
Speaker 3: of the court, I want to a one hundred percent
Speaker 3: short this woman that's committed the murder as a judge
Speaker 3: for sentencing. So it was basically it was basically just
Speaker 3: like a trial without a jury, but it was present
Speaker 3: I put most of the evidence in. It's the officer
Speaker 3: in charge of the case. The crime scene guys did
Speaker 3: their bit, and basically but every exhibit, every bit of
Speaker 3: evidence went into was presented and tagged into that court matter,
Speaker 3: and she was present for the whole lot of it,
Speaker 3: especially the crime scene video. With another applications made well,
Speaker 3: now no longer can we excuse the accused from going
Speaker 3: through this, and he said no, She's.
Speaker 2: Going to go through it. So we.
Speaker 3: Played the crime scen video to the court and probably
Speaker 3: about two minutes three minutes into it, she became physically upset,
Speaker 3: started the rock backwards and forwards, then started to get
Speaker 3: to rock more, started to murmur, make strange noises, started
Speaker 3: to weep, then started basically to rock uncontrollably and until
Speaker 3: she collapsed on the floor in a in a state
Speaker 3: of hysteria. So another ajourment, and but Frank o'coffe, to
Speaker 3: his credit, said go and composer, because the accused all
Speaker 3: the year whilst that evidence goes anyway. In the end,
Speaker 3: she sat through it, got through it. But I was
Speaker 3: a pleayar guilty, so it sort of lessened that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So there was no insanity or mental health issues
Speaker 1: that she tried to present in the defense.
Speaker 3: Was presented that she had a border that was suffering
Speaker 3: borderline personality disorder. And you know there's a lot of
Speaker 3: the population stuff as a form borderline personality disorder. But
Speaker 3: it was presented in fantasy that her upbringing and what
Speaker 3: she'd been through. But that's a sentence hearing. You'll always
Speaker 3: have a sentence hearing where they'll do their utmost best
Speaker 3: to present it and they presented a fair argument. But
Speaker 3: I think in the end, Frank Curve Justice FRANKO Kleek
Speaker 3: was satisfied that she committed this horrific murder. She'd shown
Speaker 3: no remorse, she'd shown no cooperation in relation to how
Speaker 3: or why that had happened. And I think that was
Speaker 3: presented in his judgment in a way that he presented
Speaker 3: it to say that society can do with you being
Speaker 3: incarcerated until the day you pass away and mark the
Speaker 3: papers never to be released, which is what she became
Speaker 3: the first woman in Australia to have a papers.
Speaker 2: Mark never to be released. I think it makes everyone
Speaker 2: feel a little bit safer. Yeah, I guess if you
Speaker 2: present a.
Speaker 3: Present her as a danger to society, I think she
Speaker 3: was or a danger to the people who became personally
Speaker 3: involved with, especiallythically, but he was a sentiencing justice and
Speaker 3: he thought that would be the best thing for the
Speaker 3: community as a whole. Well, because you can't progress, you
Speaker 3: can progress as a murderer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think again stepping back to
Speaker 1: the crime, Yeah, there's a murder. If it's a crime
Speaker 1: of passionate anger, revenge or whatever, it's the activities that
Speaker 1: carried on after the murder that take it into that
Speaker 1: different realm. That's why we're sitting here talking about what's
Speaker 1: happened rather than someone that was murdered twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: And most of my stuff is supposition. I surmise was
Speaker 3: it because she'd reached the end of I've been through
Speaker 3: three failed relationships, whether it be my fault or his
Speaker 3: fault or their fault or whose fault, it's not going
Speaker 3: to happen to me again, and if it does. Because
Speaker 3: he'd actually decided to break it off with her, he said, look,
Speaker 3: it's we're done, that's out. And then a couple of
Speaker 3: times she'd always come back when he'd had a few beers,
Speaker 3: and then that actually had sex the night of the murder, right, okay,
Speaker 3: And she had got and washed herself in the shower
Speaker 3: and the black neg lag was was on the dresser,
Speaker 3: and there was evidence where she cleaned herself down. Well yeah,
Speaker 3: well she she washed herself down in the shower when
Speaker 3: those body parts of his flesh found in the shower
Speaker 3: that she obviously it was a really frenzied attack, you know,
Speaker 3: and she was never ever And then there's another thing
Speaker 3: where you shower and clean yourself up from It's another
Speaker 3: way of and watching all of these horror movies maybe
Speaker 3: some certain ideas in her head. How do you how
Speaker 3: do you cover up a crime? How do you how
Speaker 3: do you not show that you were there? Or different things?
Speaker 3: But at the end she did return to the scene,
Speaker 3: you know, and they over dosed and was probably gonna
Speaker 3: write but thinking well, I'm never going to wake up,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: But but she didn't. She didn't kill herself.
Speaker 1: Like I I'm lost for words on the whole thing.
Speaker 1: It's just a crime that yeah, really shocked shocks people
Speaker 1: the nature of it. And did you have dealings with
Speaker 1: John Price's family?
Speaker 2: How did they feel about it?
Speaker 3: Did he have Look, they're very sorry that he's son.
Speaker 3: Idolizing John Jr. Even his first wife still idolized him.
Speaker 3: To her, there was never any and she was such
Speaker 3: a passive lady, And she said, look, and her evidence
Speaker 3: was he's just such a passive man. But you said,
Speaker 3: and it was his passiveness probably that in their relationship
Speaker 3: because you just didn't have a lot to get up and.
Speaker 2: Go about him, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, never violent, never, And she moved on from that.
Speaker 3: What a bit more, I guess, and lovely lady that
Speaker 3: all the children love the kids, you know, and they were,
Speaker 3: yeah there for even there for every man of forever
Speaker 3: now known as the children.
Speaker 2: And the guy who had this horrific thing happened to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a hard thing, isn't it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't forget, forget the family and the people close
Speaker 1: to him that would impact and to have a loved
Speaker 1: one killed in that manner, there's.
Speaker 2: Terrible, folks.
Speaker 1: Did she have any people supporting her at court?
Speaker 2: I think the daughters were there from memory, but.
Speaker 3: There was no outward emotion, but they were there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they were there, I think general support that salvation army
Speaker 3: lady was there those sorts of things A sister and
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. But they were not overt in
Speaker 3: there in anything.
Speaker 2: They were there. It was the appropriate thing.
Speaker 3: They were there, but they were there. I sort of
Speaker 3: think they were also taken aback as well. They were
Speaker 3: a little bit shocked she had done what she'd done,
Speaker 3: but they were there.
Speaker 2: They were there.
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind
Speaker 1: the headlines of a gang war or shooting, then you
Speaker 1: need to listen to crim City joined crime reporters Mark
Speaker 1: Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncovered the details of
Speaker 1: crime unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that
Speaker 1: don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City
Speaker 1: is out now. Listen early and ad free on crime
Speaker 1: x plus on Apple podcast Today. How did how did
Speaker 1: this investigation impact on you?
Speaker 3: It's never left me, Gary, really, I live with it
Speaker 3: every day. It's one of those things, you know. And
Speaker 3: when I was still in the job, it was such
Speaker 3: a huge thing for the media, and not that I
Speaker 3: wanted to particularly become involved in that side of it,
Speaker 3: but everybody wanted a piece of it, you know, And
Speaker 3: there was shows, and there was there was international shows,
Speaker 3: and there was different things. And in those days when
Speaker 3: I was still in the job. I had that choice,
Speaker 3: but taking as because as the commissioner and police would say, well,
Speaker 3: you will be interviewed.
Speaker 2: You know, that's get approval, and they so I did
Speaker 2: as I told.
Speaker 3: I'm no longer in there, but it's it's you know,
Speaker 3: I still see a psych every month, not because of
Speaker 3: this particular case. I mean, it was just the straw
Speaker 3: that break the camel's back as far as my mental
Speaker 3: health went.
Speaker 2: But I sort of, as we spoke earlier in.
Speaker 3: The show about I didn't realize until years longer that
Speaker 3: that was the first chip that happened early in my career.
Speaker 2: And it just wears you down. You've been there.
Speaker 3: A lot of the guys and girls listening to this today,
Speaker 3: they've been there.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's just it's what coping mechanisms you put into place
Speaker 3: to just deal with your life, you know. And probably
Speaker 3: it has affected me emotionally, and it's affected my character.
Speaker 3: It's made me not probably sometimes the greatest person to
Speaker 3: be around. But I've just got people who care about me,
Speaker 3: and you know, they they stick close. And but it's
Speaker 3: not just Catherine Knights Matter that's in the position. I've
Speaker 3: been diagnosed as a severe chronic PTSD, chronic moons. It's
Speaker 3: just there forever severe moons has not great. But it's
Speaker 3: about the coping mechanisms and just how.
Speaker 2: You deal with it, you know, and the.
Speaker 3: Psychological help that I get just keeps me going.
Speaker 1: You because you had a break after this, and you
Speaker 1: didn't leave the police, but you took time off.
Speaker 3: I took a sick leave and I really dabbled with
Speaker 3: the idea of not going back to work. But it
Speaker 3: was unfinished business because that was before this is while
Speaker 3: the matter was still live. By the time I'd finished
Speaker 3: the investigation and the brief was done, and the DPP
Speaker 3: he'd had it, and I'd done the last requisition, you know,
Speaker 3: requisitions too.
Speaker 1: I remember requisitions. They usually come in on a Friday night.
Speaker 3: And there's normally about twenty items on them. And so
Speaker 3: by time and I thought, well this is it, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe I've just got to have a break. I went
Speaker 3: off sick for a while, and it actually transferred from
Speaker 3: Singleton and Hunt VLLY command to take up a position
Speaker 3: as one of the tag units were being brought in
Speaker 3: as of the first of July two thousand, so I
Speaker 3: was asked to take a team leader role in one
Speaker 3: of those TAG risks being developed for the Hunter.
Speaker 2: Rougis and just explain to people what the tag the other.
Speaker 3: News you said units set up as a target action
Speaker 3: group to target specific areas of crime around that.
Speaker 1: Like a bit of a mobile sort of there's a
Speaker 1: lot of breakings in the town in an area, yeah,
Speaker 1: target same thing.
Speaker 3: A bit of drug work need to be done. Those
Speaker 3: sorts of things you could be utilized. And it was
Speaker 3: a rugent utilization. So you can be used to go
Speaker 3: to tweed gout to the north coast anywhere, and basically
Speaker 3: the support unit as well as anything. And it was
Speaker 3: a little bit of an area for aspiring playing closed
Speaker 3: guys to come into it if they were thinking about that,
Speaker 3: don't have a trip to the TAG. If I like
Speaker 3: that style of work, maybe well I don't like it,
Speaker 3: I'll go back to the general gits or I'll go
Speaker 3: to the High Patrol. So that's what those units were.
Speaker 3: So it was that period that I took a bit
Speaker 3: sick leave and dabbled with the idea that I'm not
Speaker 3: going to go back to work, but I thought, no,
Speaker 3: that's I've not only have I've got to see this
Speaker 3: matter through the night.
Speaker 2: Matter.
Speaker 3: It's I'm just not done with work and I'm not
Speaker 3: done with a work life, not just because it was
Speaker 3: the police saw that job. I wasn't done with a
Speaker 3: work life. To present a person to my children that
Speaker 3: I just haven't given up on. You know, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to take a pension and look like a pension
Speaker 3: of it in my forties. YEA, that's not I had
Speaker 3: this little thing in the back of my head that said,
Speaker 3: that doesn't present a good example to your children, and
Speaker 3: so that sort of drove me on as well. So
Speaker 3: I did another ten years and the cops, yeah, after
Speaker 3: Catherine Knight, before I.
Speaker 2: Decided it just was time.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: The time now as the time. It was thirty close
Speaker 3: to thirty two years, and I thought, I've given them
Speaker 3: the best shot.
Speaker 2: I've done.
Speaker 3: I've done a lot of things in the job, you know,
Speaker 3: I've got no regrets. The journey was everything I expected them,
Speaker 3: probably a little bit more, and so I thought, I
Speaker 3: don't really need this stress anymore.
Speaker 1: No, It's interesting because the fact that you identified you
Speaker 1: had that problem, you took time off, and you came
Speaker 1: back and put another ten years in. That that doesn't
Speaker 1: often happen. Quite often, you see people. It becomes that
Speaker 1: they put their hand up one time and then get
Speaker 1: some help and then come back and then feel like
Speaker 1: it's not for them. But another ten years.
Speaker 2: How long in the cops did you spend? Just under
Speaker 2: thirty two? See you put in the big, big numbers,
Speaker 2: put enough in?
Speaker 3: Well think so, I don't think people see it as
Speaker 3: a career these days anymore. Lot we spoke earlier, some do,
Speaker 3: but generally, you know a lot of people would give
Speaker 3: a crack for five years, a lot of the younger generation,
Speaker 3: but a lot that with a lot of jobs do
Speaker 3: think something for five years and say well, I've done this,
Speaker 3: I'll move on and try something else.
Speaker 1: But what saddens me current times and that we're not
Speaker 1: just talking New South Wales place. It's across the across
Speaker 1: the country. And the federal police they can't attract people
Speaker 1: to policing. And I sit down with you and talk
Speaker 1: about your career and have a laugh and cry and
Speaker 1: everything else that goes on with policing. But it's such
Speaker 1: a good career we can't attract purchase.
Speaker 3: And I've met some wonderful people in this organization, wonderful people,
Speaker 3: you know, I've met a lot of people who weren't
Speaker 3: suited to the job. Sometimes I don't know whether I
Speaker 3: really was suited or not, but I enjoyed my journey
Speaker 3: in my trip through it. Would I recommend it to.
Speaker 2: My children or my grandchildren.
Speaker 3: Probably probably not, Okay, probably not, because I don't want
Speaker 3: to see them go through that long term pain at
Speaker 3: the end of it if it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: Out for them.
Speaker 1: No, that's I can understand where you're coming from. When
Speaker 1: I'm asked whether people should join the police or go
Speaker 1: down that part, I say, from my point of view, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love the job, but understand it will change you.
Speaker 1: It will change you as a person. Whether that's better
Speaker 1: or worse, you don't know until you've gone there.
Speaker 3: It will change you very quickly too. Yeah, I'm saying
Speaker 3: that's to my children.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But if someone wants to have a heart art cityw
Speaker 3: on I'm thinking to join the cops, I'd say, well,
Speaker 3: you've got to. If you want to have a crack,
Speaker 3: have a crack. I would recommend it for my children
Speaker 3: because I don't want it, you know. But if someone's
Speaker 3: got to join it, someone's got to do the work.
Speaker 3: You know, it's got to be done. It's something that
Speaker 3: we can't say, and.
Speaker 1: It's from your point of view. It's worthwhile, isn't it.
Speaker 1: You feel like you're doing something worthwhile. You look back
Speaker 1: at your career and yeah.
Speaker 2: I think so, Yeah, I do think so. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You may make a difference in what they have a
Speaker 1: little way, but you're making it making a difference. What
Speaker 1: caused you? And I know we've talked as old cops
Speaker 1: do or old X cops tend to do, and talk
Speaker 1: about the problems with the job. It's not like our
Speaker 1: day and all that's of stuff. What caused you?
Speaker 2: More stress?
Speaker 1: The investigations or management, a.
Speaker 3: Bit of both, but managements. I've never been in. The
Speaker 3: highest management level I reached was for three years at
Speaker 3: the region office. In getting closer words in my career
Speaker 3: was I filled in in a relieving capacity as an
Speaker 3: inspector in charge of the Northern Region Internal Fear Section,
Speaker 3: so but never ever got confirmed in the position. So
Speaker 3: I did it so I realized I could do that.
Speaker 3: I was never stopped because I wasn't able to do
Speaker 3: that job. I was stopped because eventually there was someone
Speaker 3: with a bit of sadness in another area needed a
Speaker 3: position to be filled, so they plumped in and moved
Speaker 3: me back to my substantive positions. As soon as I
Speaker 3: couldn't do it, I did it so years myself to myself,
Speaker 3: I was, I was, I was job satisfied in that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but manage and we talk about the Night matter.
Speaker 3: It was a bit of a stumbling block. And sometimes
Speaker 3: people get made, get paid quite postential money in this
Speaker 3: organization to make a decision. Yet sometimes it seems to
Speaker 3: be so hard for them.
Speaker 2: To make that decision.
Speaker 3: And the problem I was faced with with Night, there
Speaker 3: was a lot of work to be done after that interview,
Speaker 3: a lot of work to be done, a lot of
Speaker 3: statements to be obtained, a lot of evidence to be gathered,
Speaker 3: a lot of evidents be gathered, and a lot of
Speaker 3: which was going to take a lot of travel to
Speaker 3: track people down, interview them, get them on paper. And
Speaker 3: because I was in that transfers stage from Hunter Valley,
Speaker 3: likely with Kamar, to the regional officers, it became I
Speaker 3: went to the to the to the bosses. Now listen,
Speaker 3: this is this is a situation. This has got to
Speaker 3: be done.
Speaker 2: Oh right, right, what do you need?
Speaker 3: Well, I need to go and in view these people.
Speaker 3: Where are they I said, well, they're all over the place.
Speaker 3: They're not all living in the one street next to
Speaker 3: each other.
Speaker 2: I said, there.
Speaker 3: Some are in Coffsarbors, some are in some are in Maury,
Speaker 3: some are in the South Coast, somewhere out west, somewhere
Speaker 3: in Newcastle, somewhere in the Hunta Valley. But right, so
Speaker 3: what do you need to do? I said, Well, I
Speaker 3: just need a made a vehicle and a laptop and
Speaker 3: a car. A car and a laptop, thanks very much. Well,
Speaker 3: who's going to give you the car?
Speaker 2: I said? Sorry?
Speaker 3: You know, if I could make my own decisions, I'll
Speaker 3: just go and get one.
Speaker 2: But I can't.
Speaker 3: You got to make a decision. I need a car
Speaker 3: and some traveling allowance and I need a laptop. Right, Well,
Speaker 3: who's going to give you that? That's that's what I'm
Speaker 3: asking you for, your sure decision, not mine. And it
Speaker 3: was really disheartening to see these people.
Speaker 1: There to make decisions that can't make decisions.
Speaker 3: Pay the big bucks that can't make a.
Speaker 2: Decision, I think with leadership, and it was all.
Speaker 3: About dollars, Gary, it was all about the almighty dollar.
Speaker 1: Jesus, Bob, haven't you worked out now that you can
Speaker 1: look very good in your application. If you've saved the
Speaker 1: organization made it says you could have gone so much
Speaker 1: higher if you just realize that. Look, I don't want
Speaker 1: to come across as a cynic with police. We enjoy it.
Speaker 1: It's a robust, robust organization. We have their fun. We
Speaker 1: take the piss out of each other and criticize the
Speaker 1: bosses and vice versa. But in leadership, the thing that
Speaker 1: would frustrate me is the leaders that are getting paid
Speaker 1: to leaders. That's the structure of the police paid the
Speaker 1: leaders that couldn't make decisions. I don't always agree with decisions,
Speaker 1: but sometimes at crunch time, when the pressures on, you
Speaker 1: need someone to make a decision, and when you've got
Speaker 1: a boss there that won't make a decision one way
Speaker 1: or the other, that's the worst type of leadership. Make
Speaker 1: a decision a lot wrong, be it right or wrong.
Speaker 1: Take the consequences, but I'll respect you if you make
Speaker 1: a decision. It's the ones that couldn't make a decision
Speaker 1: and just sort of sit back and watch see if
Speaker 1: it all blows up, and then they'll come in after
Speaker 1: and take credit if it's success or just some distance.
Speaker 2: If it's not.
Speaker 3: But it was that was probably the most disappointing thing
Speaker 3: about the whole brief. Was it just that it was
Speaker 3: easy stuff to do, but it just needed a bit
Speaker 3: of travel to do it. And it was just it was,
Speaker 3: it was and that took time to get that decision
Speaker 3: to be made, you know. And it's at the time
Speaker 3: you see that as time that you don't really have,
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, it was, but it was
Speaker 3: got on with it. But it's frustrating, and that's the
Speaker 3: main thing. You just walk out of those scenarios thinking
Speaker 3: to yourself, like, it's just you know, it's just crazy.
Speaker 3: It's not I didn't want a million dollars, mate, I
Speaker 3: just wanted I just wanted a car with some fuel
Speaker 3: and with a fuel card and a bit of too.
Speaker 3: You ain't going to wrap this thing up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I understand your frustration with it. Your life
Speaker 1: now post cops, you're enjoying yourself.
Speaker 2: I think, so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've discovered a bit of travel. I'd never liked flying,
Speaker 3: never get on a plane, So I'm racking up a
Speaker 3: few ear miles now. My wife and I go to
Speaker 3: We've been to Europe a couple of times, a couple
Speaker 3: of nice little trips. We've got grandkids and kids in
Speaker 3: the UK that we visit. My wife's a Kiwi so
Speaker 3: she's got family there with jet across the ditch quite often,
Speaker 3: those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, like things are pretty good.
Speaker 3: We've a lot of grandkids, are keeper's hopping, babysitting, plenty
Speaker 3: of sports with the older grandkids, a footy, bit of netball,
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. So we're very busy, and I
Speaker 3: think that's.
Speaker 2: What helps you get through those sorts of things.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're living a good life, well, doing
Speaker 1: my best. Yeah, you're doing pretty best, but.
Speaker 3: I still have still, I still have my moments, you know,
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. So with the psych and am
Speaker 3: a missus. She keeps me on straight and narrow. That's
Speaker 3: as best as I can. But yeah, look she's a
Speaker 3: great travel companion. We seem to get on exceptionally well
Speaker 3: when we're traveling.
Speaker 1: You know, well, I saw you both turn up this
Speaker 1: morning and you look like you've been getting on well.
Speaker 3: When we become stationary and hang around the house a
Speaker 3: little bit, the things get to hot rain, so that
Speaker 3: could be the case. But anyway, now it looks things
Speaker 3: are pretty good. Yeah, I just I'm never going to
Speaker 3: be one hundred percent emotionally and mentally, and that's just
Speaker 3: a fact of life, you know. But in saying that,
Speaker 3: I'm not Roberson Cruise on that, but in that on
Speaker 3: that boat, you know, there's plenty of others and there's
Speaker 3: some worse off than me.
Speaker 1: So I just, you know, well, full full credit to
Speaker 1: you to have the honesty to talk about it, and also, yeah,
Speaker 1: dealing with it, you're dealing with it, you're acknowledging it,
Speaker 1: and you're making the best of the same.
Speaker 3: I know I can be I can be cranky and
Speaker 3: hard to get along with, but that's that's part of
Speaker 3: what that does to you.
Speaker 2: And who knows.
Speaker 3: Had I've not joined the cops, I may have been
Speaker 3: it up like that. But but I can only say
Speaker 3: how it affected me, and that's and that's it chips
Speaker 3: away at you. That's what you can And it just
Speaker 3: wasn't Catherine. I I was well, I was well in
Speaker 3: trouble before that was just a tip of it. I
Speaker 3: was well in trouble before that before that brief came along.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: For sure, that so okay, And most people are by
Speaker 3: the time they get it's around that twenty years. You know,
Speaker 3: if you if you're fully operational up to twenty years,
Speaker 3: you've you've you're starting to feel head.
Speaker 1: And that pressure, that pressure, that pressure, that constant pressure.
Speaker 1: I do understand what you're talking about, but well we
Speaker 1: might wrap it up at this point. But I just
Speaker 1: want to thank you, Bob for service to the community.
Speaker 1: And I mean that like thirty years in the Cops'
Speaker 1: and the stuff that you've done, you've you've picked the
Speaker 1: ball all up and run with it, so full full
Speaker 1: credit to you on that. Thanks for being the type
Speaker 1: of cop that I think we need to a practical
Speaker 1: approach to policing. And you're obviously a people person and
Speaker 1: I think that carries a lot of weight in policing
Speaker 1: and that makes everyone's job that much easier. I remember
Speaker 1: you from the Detective's course, and you were someone that
Speaker 1: got on with people and that communication that helps a
Speaker 1: great deal.
Speaker 3: That was some good people in that course and I
Speaker 3: really enjoyed it. But there's some great poplent the cops.
Speaker 3: You know, friends forever, friends for life.
Speaker 2: It's good.
Speaker 1: Thanks Gary, all right, and thanks for making the way
Speaker 1: to come here on eye catch killers not a problem
Speaker 1: all the best for the future.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, same to you, enjoy your travels, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Good cheers. The murder of John Price by Catherine Knight
Speaker 1: is one of the most macabre and bizarre murders I've
Speaker 1: heard about in my entire time in homicide. There's some
Speaker 1: crimes that leave an indelible impression on you, and that's
Speaker 1: one that's certainly left an impression on Bob.
Speaker 2: But full credit to him.
Speaker 1: He's a country cop. He spent most of his time
Speaker 1: in the country and you can see why he was
Speaker 1: valued in the community, and full credit to him. And
Speaker 1: had a great time catching up with an old friend.