WEBVTT - Skinned, beheaded and served as dinner: Robert Wells Pt.2 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.840 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.599 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.200 Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.559 Detective Sergeant Bob Wells. Welcome back, Bob, Please carry. I'm 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.360 glad you've come back. Yes, not that you had anywhere 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:55.639 to ga. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:57.000 That's a stage. That's all good. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.600 If you listen to part one of our chat, we 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.480 talked about Bob's career, a lot of which was spent 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.080 out working in the bush as a country cop, and 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.839 how he became a detective. When we finished off part 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.760 one with Bob, we're talking about a crime scene he 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.640 was called to where a man, John Price, had been murdered. 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.680 We're going to pick up from that crime scene. And 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:19.840 I think at the start of part one I gave 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.640 a listener warning that it's fairly graphic details we're going 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.840 to be talking about, so just fore warning. The nature 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.800 of the crime was quite brutal and quite macab Bob, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.040 we had you at the scene. What was the address 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.240 or what was the town? 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.600 Was it Aberdeen? I think from memory now is twenty 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:44.560 four years ago. It was twenty five so and Andrews Street, Aberdeen. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.960 Okay, so you're there. I'd just bring everyone up to date. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.920 If they missed part one. You've been called out. There's 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.200 been concerned for welfare because John didn't turn up for work. Yes, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.920 and he had told his workmates that, look, if I'd 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.440 turn up, this lady, I'm saying, Catherine. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.400 Is as possibly I've been killed by being killed. 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.919 They've turned up the doors shut, they see some blood 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:11.960 at the front door. They call the cops. The cops 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.519 go there, gain entry into the place, and they find 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:21.280 John's skin hanging from a hook and then they've looked 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.000 further into the house. What else have they seen? 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.680 Well, if they've gone to the down the hallway which 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.120 was which there was a huge amount of blood in 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.760 various splatters as you would call it, and also with 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:38.359 hand hand marks on it as well. They've found who 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.760 we've since found to be Catherine Knight Carmo, tasting the 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:48.640 bed which was John Bryce's bedroom. They've managed to sort 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.400 of bring her around in a groggy state talk he 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.760 sat on the back steps initially lead to the house 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.080 whilst they've decided that look, this is a this is 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.120 something that soon now needs to be Graham Furlonger was 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:06.880 a formative technic sergeant and then shift supervisor, knew the 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.560 ropes as far as serious crimes go, and said, this 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.160 is this has got to be sailed off until we 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.839 get the we get the guys here from crime scene. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.520 So which which I which? When I got there, I 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.839 just had a quick cursory look at the at what 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.079 at what Gary and Scotty James had seen the same thing. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.400 Could you could you take in what you were seeing? 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.960 Not well, well you could take it in because it 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.799 was it was right in front of you, but right 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.400 right there and then you thought, this is just this 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.720 is one out of the box. This is this is 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.600 something that's going to not just be a short, sharp 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:49.560 murder investigation, sheerly because of the scale of. 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:50.800 What had happened to the victim. 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.000 Because I was going to get out, you know, And 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.200 Graham said, Graham, I remember, Graham Furlong, I did something, mate, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:58.480 You'll need to have a look at the pot on 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:03.800 the stave, which I did, which contained the head of 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.880 John Price with a number of vegetables. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.280 So doing it in it So we're talking the pot 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.720 on the stove with wader ahead and vegetables in there and. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:20.520 Have been cooked. Yes, so you know. But and I 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.760 was just saying, this is this has just got to 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:24.839 be sealed off. It's one of those crime scenes. No 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.799 one goes in, no one go out. Scottie just stayed 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.760 near the door, start a log, those sorts of things, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.240 just that routine stuff that would go through as a detective. 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.320 And and we. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:42.200 You're saying routine. But Bob, Yeah, when you go look 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.080 into a kitchen, then you're seeing describe what you saw. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.160 Well, I had a good I had a look at 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:49.760 the skin hanging on the doorway. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.800 I saw John Price's body was in one piece. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.080 I was later on to find out from the forensic 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.600 pathologist who him back together that it would come off 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.200 in one section. It was all whole, the you know, 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:06.160 the finger tips. 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.919 To the end of the days skinned yep, okay, sorry, 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.440 I interrupted. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.240 Now you're right, and so it was. I then contacted 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.760 the forensic services guys, Neil Raymond and Permacio, and they're 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.760 on their way and I sort of had a conversation 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.560 about what it was and I think the worlds particular 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:26.120 over in. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:28.480 Neil Raymon's head. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:33.520 Particularly, And when they got there, Uel said, mate, this 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.640 is We're going to need more than still photographs of 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.000 this soon. He said, My suggestion is it might take 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:39.719 a while, but we need to get the video unit 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:44.560 up from Sydney, which they did, and they methodically went 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:49.159 through that crime scene by video with the with the 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.160 crime with the video unit guys as they did their 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.119 crime scene investigative work. 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.360 And what was what was discovered in the crime scene 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:00.719 described the. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.600 Well basically basically John Price had obviously been in bed. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:11.560 He'd been attacked viciously with a large bladed, wooden handled 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:16.800 knife which got basically a butcher's knife, probably more a 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:21.760 boning than a flirting knife, and he's obviously taken flight 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.080 and I'm having the soon described me basically by the 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.880 forensic Service guys scientific cops as I called him in 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.120 those days, and that he was making his way down 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.560 the hallway while he's continually being stabbed them and probably 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:42.640 probably through the forensic examination of the guy from Newcastle, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:47.039 was that eventually he was struck a failed blow through 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:52.159 the back into the heart around short of the front door. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.520 He's managed to open the front door because there was 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.000 bloodstained fingers. He's on the front he's managed to get 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.800 the front door open and about to get outside when 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:07.880 he's obviously became deceased and the front door was slam shut, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.240 and he was obviously left to what was going to 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:13.240 happen to him from there on. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:19.720 So what where was his body? You've described where his 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:20.280 skin was. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.680 We're just aside the front door. There's like a lot 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.120 of entrance ways the houses. There's as old corktiles on 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.680 the floor. There was that section in there and half 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.000 onto the carpet where we stepped into the land room. 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:32.320 His body was in there. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:38.600 And he was decapitated. Yes, skin, yes, any other injuries 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:39.840 obvious injuries. 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:46.280 To multiple multiple stab wounds more so noticeable through the 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.880 post mortem examination by I'm trying to think of the 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.760 forensic pathologists name. He said, Look, there's up to thirty 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:58.360 seven stab wounds throughout his body, Okay, which were evident 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.200 also through the skin when it was and when he 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:02.080 was put back together. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:08.560 Basically, right, you've you've found Catherine Knight that she's described 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.120 a camatoes laying in the bed in John's bed, and 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.119 then she's been taken out. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.440 Yes, she was taken out. And actually as I arrived, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.880 that was who was going into the ambulance to leave 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.000 Judy Simpson, who was. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:24.720 Did you know at this stage you were going to 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:25.960 be running the investigation? 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:27.679 Well it was our area. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:28.880 Yeah. I was a detective. 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:30.480 That was my job. 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:32.400 So you you assumed control of it. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.280 Yeah, that's what I was called because I made I 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.280 was a senior detective in the in the Lacks. 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:38.240 That was my job. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:41.760 My job is to decide that I'm going to do 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.360 it or or how we do it. But yeah, it 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.480 was my job. So and that's my responsibilit because that 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.360 was my area. Everybody likes to everybody likes to have 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.400 control of their patch. Area, No, I understand, so certain, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.760 just some instructions to dy make sure they get some 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.120 scrapings under her fingernails, different things, all those sort the 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:00.559 things that. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:01.680 She was under arrest. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:02.680 She wasn't under. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.160 Arrest, right, She was in custody basically, I guess she 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.760 would say under the new terms with two thousand, because 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.360 she had a police officer with her. But she wasn't going. 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.520 Anywhere because she was she was foggy down in the 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:13.080 nitty grit. 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.200 She was, she was really groggy. She wasn't going anywhere, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.120 and she was taking to Mayland Hospital where she was 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.520 placed into the psychiatric ward because once the hospital found 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.320 out why she was. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.760 There that she was, she was put straight. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.679 They think there must be something mentally wrong with this 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.920 woman because of what she alleged she's done. So she 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.360 went to the sight. Would where where she was I 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:43.920 guess tranquilized medicated would be, I guess because. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:45.760 Until we knew what. 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.880 Was going on, I think that was the decision's medical 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.559 practitioners to continue to medicate it. But I think they 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:56.760 medicated it also because she'd taken a lot of prescription medication, 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.280 mainly painkillers those sorts of things. But which we found 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.680 out later through the investigation that it would have It 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.280 would have made her quite sick. It would have made 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.960 a drowsy and put her asleep, but it wasn't going 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.520 to kill her. So obviously we've looked at her, we're 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.920 looking we were looking at a potential murder suicide if 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.040 she passed away. But the doctor said, mate, she hasn't 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.599 consumed enough to kill her, so she's going to eventually 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.280 wake up. So how they medicated her through that to 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.240 get her up And basically she was never under guard 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.600 in that in that psychiatric wood. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.319 Because she was they weren't going to let her out. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.080 I've been speaking to people in there. It's a cured era, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:31.480 isn't it. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:32.720 Yes, get out. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.680 So we were left with, Okay, she's not going anywhere. 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.040 We've got this crime scene which the guys are coming done. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:42.439 It was video. 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.199 Recorded, and it was a matter of okay, we've got 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.360 these guys. He'd made it was about time to start 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.680 getting some statements and commencing a brief of evidence. And 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.839 that's all we got about doing, was you know, and 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.720 as you know, in investigation, one statement lease to another statement, 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:02.800 loose one other statement. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.880 Where you'd be starting with these workmates and the person 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:05.840 that called the part. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.360 And you know, and because it was like a little 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.360 place like Aberdeen, it was a big thing. It was 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.439 a big because everybody knows everybody. You know, it's one 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.120 of those more country towns again where one happens in 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.720 Downstown Erskineville. Some people wouldn't bannle it at it. Yeah, 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.760 another murder or some parts of Sydney. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:26.720 It's just a but it. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:28.199 Was a big thing for a town like that. And 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.000 of course everybody went to everybody and that everybody's chin 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.080 was wagging out of control and. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:35.680 People came forward. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.280 See I saw I saw it her two o'clock walking 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:41.439 back towards the house. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.160 You know, in the thongs. Well you're a loud of it. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.800 She just looked like she was in a trance walking 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.800 back to the house. This woman puts a dog out 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.559 it every morning at two o'clock and runs out of 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.400 the lawn as a leak, runs back inside. It just 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.280 so happened it this morning, same thing, she's walking back towards. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:57.640 The house, you know. 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.560 So there was just statement aftter statement saying to get 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.760 to build this brief because we knew there was probably 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.120 going to be a number of days delay in getting 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:07.840 an opportunity, if we were ever going to get an 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.280 opportunity to an interviewer, whether she would have been capable 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.120 to be interviewed, because this is the big thing you 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:14.800 think about, well, you know, and we're ever going to 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.120 get a chance and anyway. 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.240 So in those days, you're gathering as much evidence as 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.680 you can with statements. Did it start to paint a 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:23.559 picture in your mind? 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.400 Painted a picture that it wasn't rosy in a relationship, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.040 painted a picture that they could have a blue at 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.600 any time, But it didn't paint a picture of what 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.600 had happened. It was just the messy situation where they 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.840 didn't they got on to start with. I think because 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.839 it was a new relationship for them both again, and 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:45.800 sex is a big part of a new relationship and 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.839 those sort of things, things are rosy. When he got 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.240 down to the nitty gritty and a bit of reality 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.360 sets in, things started to changing a little bit for 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.040 a lot of couples, and I think and it was 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.000 they'd burned together for quite a while, so maybe it 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.360 was just coming towards itatural end. And as I progress 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.360 through the information, I sort of got more of a 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:10.280 clearer picture of why she may have taken such drastic 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.520 measures as what she did. 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.480 In gathering the evidence. Did you did you turn over 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:17.000 her place? 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:22.360 Turn her place over down it with a search warrant 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.840 then on the main highway in Aberdeen. And it was 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:32.679 a house that was full of horror movies. How he 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:34.800 had a fixation for all sorts of horror movies, all 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.920 genres of horror. I think there was still a lot. 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.000 There's a lot of DVDs were sort of on the 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.960 rise in that era. There was both so moving to 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.240 a more modern toile collection than others, but it was 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.920 all horror. There was a huge amount of stuffed animals 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.520 throughout the house, but a lot of a huge library 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.480 of horror movies. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.400 How many are we doing? I probably talk him probably 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.559 one hundred or more. You know, they were creepy. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.520 Well that's but all that sort of stuff that people into. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:13.160 Horror by the stuffed animals as in toysh. 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.640 No no like birds and eagles and all sorts of 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:18.319 natural wildlife for. 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.520 A fauna straight out of those sorts of things. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:24.160 So it was sort of and it was a dank, 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:30.720 dark house, you know, and there was I think a 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.200 little bit of premeditation started to end in my mind 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:38.600 when because the evidence flowed that she was at her 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.640 his house in her car, then it was gone at 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.480 a certain time of night, was taken back to her house. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.840 It had driven right into the backyard of a place 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:55.400 like it was a possession thing. Someone around midnight, at 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.440 a minute to midnight was at Musclebrook with his key card, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.080 took five hundred dollars out, waited for a minute past 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.360 midnight to take another five hundred out because obviously. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:07.600 Had a limit of five hundred on his account. 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.120 Prettymede knew enough was in the mind of enough to 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:12.840 be able to go and do that sort of activity 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.120 with a cup card with his Cree card. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:16.920 And then because the Creek card was found back at the. 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.760 Scene, okay, so this is prior or post the murder. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.080 You're thinking, this is post the murder, okay. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.640 And then she's gone back to the premises after getting 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.560 rid of her she's obviously on the muscle Brook yeap, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.440 taking the money out, taking the cash somewhere to her home, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:36.160 I would imagine, or someone her car back to her 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.280 own home and parked by the backyard, so that was 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.160 on her property. And then we're seenhim walking back to 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:42.120 the scene at two am. 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:46.920 That's that I would be thinking, putting the homicide had on, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.360 how do we get to this, you'd be looking that's 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.600 good evidence to rebut any mental health issues, isn't It's she's. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:55.120 Pretty switch on. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:16:00.880 Yeah, it's like there's no insanity that as a defense 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.440 when she's capable of Okay, well, I can withdraw money, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.200 I can cover the tracks. I know what I've done 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.720 is wrong, and I'm going to try and cover my tracks. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.160 But I think the money was possibly because of the 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.600 attempt to take her own life relation to the prescription medication. 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:19.200 The money was for someone because you had young children yourself. Okay, 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:23.920 that's a summation at that stage. But no money was 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.120 ever found, and that was the search of a car 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.560 the premises the whole boxing. I say, whether someone else 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.800 was involved or she'd burned this to someone, Yeah, that 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.000 was not established at that stage. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.760 So how many days after you've attended the crime scene 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.040 are we looking at before you got to speak to her. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.720 The afternoon of the next day, Because we worked all 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.760 through that first night and the end of the next day. 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.560 I sort of had a bit of an episode where 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.840 I thought that this was getting a bit much. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:49.920 You know. 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.640 So I was sort of heading home and I sort 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.440 of took a bit of a. 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.120 Bit of a left turn and went down to and 0:16:58.200 --> 0:16:58.600 I spoke. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.720 I rang Phil Lloyd, who was prosecutor at Newcastle and 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.520 a well respected coscutter, and he said, come down, come 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:07.800 down home, and we'll have a couple of beers and 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.960 we'll just see how things work. So I had it, 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:12.960 went down to Phil's house and we spent some time 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:14.399 and said, look, I said, I think I'm going to 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.560 get a chance to interview this girl, this woman, and 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.800 I'm thinking that I might make applications if I get 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.680 the video unit, because it was only ever going to 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.960 be done in the hospital. And Phil said, that's a 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.320 good idea. What we'll do is we'll get the video unit. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.080 And he said I'll come up that day and we'll interviewer, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.360 or you can interview her. And he said, oh wait outside, 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.920 but he just put my toes a little bit to say, mate, 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:40.000 it's not going to get on top of you. 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:41.240 I've only got one person interview. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.600 So I took Phil's guidance and appreciated it very much. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:46.600 He said, right that sort of perked me up a 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.359 little bit more confident. So about three days later, I've 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.720 got the opportunity to interviewer at Maitland Hospital. 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.520 Okay, so you went in there with the video opera. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.359 Well, first off, I made sure I had plenty of 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.000 paperwork from the hospital to say that she's able to 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.560 be interviewed. She's aware, she's she's got all faculties about her. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.159 She's not saying any signs of she's been assessed by 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:13.199 psycho psychiatrists too, said that look she's fine to she's lucid, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.800 she understands, she's alert, she's. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.600 She can receive retain relay, that's information, so she can 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:22.880 say she can be interviewed. 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:28.600 She had a barrister and young solicitor there and the 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.480 barrister said, look, it won't take long. She says she 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.680 can't remember anything, so just go in there and run 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:36.400 through the motions. 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:37.240 She's going to tell you. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.360 She doesn't know what happened, she's got no idea and 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:41.320 so you'll only. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.600 Be in there five minutes. So we went and. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.000 Close to an hour of an hour later we came 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.600 out to a nation face. Barrister doesn't know what she said. 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.159 Her solicitor was in there with that during the interview. 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.280 But the interview sort of went from I think she 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.720 really had a lot to say, but it wasn't about 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.359 what she'd done, it was about what had happened to 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:06.919 her during her life. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.000 Did you put the information to her that this is 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.720 what we're found when we've come into the premises, you 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.720 are asleep in the bed and card all that. 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.879 Yes, yeah, nothing was put well to her. Nothing was 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.480 not put to her, nothing at all. But and because 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:27.360 the allegation had to be there for her, allegedly us 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.000 thinking that she was going to say, look, I've got 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.000 no idea what happened. I've got nothing to say, you know, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.919 you know, just but she just started to talk about 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.199 this is I can tell you what's happened to me 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.520 over the years. And I don't know, I can't really 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.520 remember the word for word interview, but basically the crux 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.440 of the story was that she'd been through a number 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:52.439 of relationships. She had a very hard upbringing as a child, 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.760 had had a father who was abusive towards a mother 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:04.240 sexually and physically, with a almost. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:02.919 On a daily basis. 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.840 As she witnessed and moved the rent moved on to 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.760 her relationships through the years of one marriage and then 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.280 three mile partners afterwards, and basically. 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.560 I just kept it going. Just will tell me about it. 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.119 And it was probably after we got to the second 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:29.040 partner after her husband, John Chillingworth. Mind you, she had 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.000 she had children to all of these first three men 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.240 for John Prist, and I thought, well, just let it 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.560 go and that's what she's and then then then started 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.800