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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: Detective Sergeant Bob Wells. Welcome back, Bob, Please carry. I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you've come back. Yes, not that you had anywhere

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Speaker 1: to ga.

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Speaker 2: That's a stage. That's all good.

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Speaker 1: If you listen to part one of our chat, we

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Speaker 1: talked about Bob's career, a lot of which was spent

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Speaker 1: out working in the bush as a country cop, and

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Speaker 1: how he became a detective. When we finished off part

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Speaker 1: one with Bob, we're talking about a crime scene he

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Speaker 1: was called to where a man, John Price, had been murdered.

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Speaker 1: We're going to pick up from that crime scene. And

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Speaker 1: I think at the start of part one I gave

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Speaker 1: a listener warning that it's fairly graphic details we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about, so just fore warning. The nature

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Speaker 1: of the crime was quite brutal and quite macab Bob,

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Speaker 1: we had you at the scene. What was the address

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Speaker 1: or what was the town?

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Speaker 3: Was it Aberdeen? I think from memory now is twenty

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Speaker 3: four years ago. It was twenty five so and Andrews Street, Aberdeen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're there. I'd just bring everyone up to date.

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Speaker 1: If they missed part one. You've been called out. There's

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Speaker 1: been concerned for welfare because John didn't turn up for work. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and he had told his workmates that, look, if I'd

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Speaker 1: turn up, this lady, I'm saying, Catherine.

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Speaker 2: Is as possibly I've been killed by being killed.

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Speaker 1: They've turned up the doors shut, they see some blood

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Speaker 1: at the front door. They call the cops. The cops

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Speaker 1: go there, gain entry into the place, and they find

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Speaker 1: John's skin hanging from a hook and then they've looked

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Speaker 1: further into the house. What else have they seen?

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Speaker 3: Well, if they've gone to the down the hallway which

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Speaker 3: was which there was a huge amount of blood in

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Speaker 3: various splatters as you would call it, and also with

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Speaker 3: hand hand marks on it as well. They've found who

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Speaker 3: we've since found to be Catherine Knight Carmo, tasting the

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Speaker 3: bed which was John Bryce's bedroom. They've managed to sort

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Speaker 3: of bring her around in a groggy state talk he

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Speaker 3: sat on the back steps initially lead to the house

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Speaker 3: whilst they've decided that look, this is a this is

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Speaker 3: something that soon now needs to be Graham Furlonger was

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Speaker 3: a formative technic sergeant and then shift supervisor, knew the

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Speaker 3: ropes as far as serious crimes go, and said, this

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Speaker 3: is this has got to be sailed off until we

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Speaker 3: get the we get the guys here from crime scene.

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Speaker 3: So which which I which? When I got there, I

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Speaker 3: just had a quick cursory look at the at what

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Speaker 3: at what Gary and Scotty James had seen the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Could you could you take in what you were seeing?

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Speaker 3: Not well, well you could take it in because it

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Speaker 3: was it was right in front of you, but right

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Speaker 3: right there and then you thought, this is just this

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Speaker 3: is one out of the box. This is this is

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Speaker 3: something that's going to not just be a short, sharp

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Speaker 3: murder investigation, sheerly because of the scale of.

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Speaker 2: What had happened to the victim.

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Speaker 3: Because I was going to get out, you know, And

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Speaker 3: Graham said, Graham, I remember, Graham Furlong, I did something, mate,

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Speaker 3: You'll need to have a look at the pot on

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Speaker 3: the stave, which I did, which contained the head of

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Speaker 3: John Price with a number of vegetables.

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Speaker 1: So doing it in it So we're talking the pot

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Speaker 1: on the stove with wader ahead and vegetables in there and.

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Speaker 3: Have been cooked. Yes, so you know. But and I

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Speaker 3: was just saying, this is this has just got to

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Speaker 3: be sealed off. It's one of those crime scenes. No

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Speaker 3: one goes in, no one go out. Scottie just stayed

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Speaker 3: near the door, start a log, those sorts of things,

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Speaker 3: just that routine stuff that would go through as a detective.

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Speaker 3: And and we.

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Speaker 1: You're saying routine. But Bob, Yeah, when you go look

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Speaker 1: into a kitchen, then you're seeing describe what you saw.

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Speaker 3: Well, I had a good I had a look at

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Speaker 3: the skin hanging on the doorway.

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Speaker 2: I saw John Price's body was in one piece.

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Speaker 3: I was later on to find out from the forensic

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Speaker 3: pathologist who him back together that it would come off

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Speaker 3: in one section. It was all whole, the you know,

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Speaker 3: the finger tips.

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Speaker 1: To the end of the days skinned yep, okay, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I interrupted.

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Speaker 3: Now you're right, and so it was. I then contacted

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Speaker 3: the forensic services guys, Neil Raymond and Permacio, and they're

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Speaker 3: on their way and I sort of had a conversation

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Speaker 3: about what it was and I think the worlds particular

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Speaker 3: over in.

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Speaker 2: Neil Raymon's head.

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Speaker 3: Particularly, And when they got there, Uel said, mate, this

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Speaker 3: is We're going to need more than still photographs of

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Speaker 3: this soon. He said, My suggestion is it might take

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Speaker 3: a while, but we need to get the video unit

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Speaker 3: up from Sydney, which they did, and they methodically went

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Speaker 3: through that crime scene by video with the with the

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Speaker 3: crime with the video unit guys as they did their

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Speaker 3: crime scene investigative work.

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Speaker 1: And what was what was discovered in the crime scene

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Speaker 1: described the.

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Speaker 3: Well basically basically John Price had obviously been in bed.

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Speaker 3: He'd been attacked viciously with a large bladed, wooden handled

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Speaker 3: knife which got basically a butcher's knife, probably more a

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Speaker 3: boning than a flirting knife, and he's obviously taken flight

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Speaker 3: and I'm having the soon described me basically by the

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Speaker 3: forensic Service guys scientific cops as I called him in

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Speaker 3: those days, and that he was making his way down

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Speaker 3: the hallway while he's continually being stabbed them and probably

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Speaker 3: probably through the forensic examination of the guy from Newcastle,

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Speaker 3: was that eventually he was struck a failed blow through

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Speaker 3: the back into the heart around short of the front door.

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Speaker 3: He's managed to open the front door because there was

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Speaker 3: bloodstained fingers. He's on the front he's managed to get

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Speaker 3: the front door open and about to get outside when

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Speaker 3: he's obviously became deceased and the front door was slam shut,

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Speaker 3: and he was obviously left to what was going to

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Speaker 3: happen to him from there on.

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Speaker 1: So what where was his body? You've described where his

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Speaker 1: skin was.

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Speaker 3: We're just aside the front door. There's like a lot

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Speaker 3: of entrance ways the houses. There's as old corktiles on

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Speaker 3: the floor. There was that section in there and half

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Speaker 3: onto the carpet where we stepped into the land room.

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Speaker 2: His body was in there.

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Speaker 1: And he was decapitated. Yes, skin, yes, any other injuries

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Speaker 1: obvious injuries.

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Speaker 3: To multiple multiple stab wounds more so noticeable through the

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Speaker 3: post mortem examination by I'm trying to think of the

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Speaker 3: forensic pathologists name. He said, Look, there's up to thirty

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Speaker 3: seven stab wounds throughout his body, Okay, which were evident

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Speaker 3: also through the skin when it was and when he

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Speaker 3: was put back together.

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Speaker 1: Basically, right, you've you've found Catherine Knight that she's described

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Speaker 1: a camatoes laying in the bed in John's bed, and

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Speaker 1: then she's been taken out.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she was taken out. And actually as I arrived,

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Speaker 3: that was who was going into the ambulance to leave

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Speaker 3: Judy Simpson, who was.

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Speaker 1: Did you know at this stage you were going to

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Speaker 1: be running the investigation?

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Speaker 3: Well it was our area.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a detective.

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Speaker 3: That was my job.

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Speaker 2: So you you assumed control of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I was called because I made I

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Speaker 3: was a senior detective in the in the Lacks.

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Speaker 2: That was my job.

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Speaker 3: My job is to decide that I'm going to do

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Speaker 3: it or or how we do it. But yeah, it

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Speaker 3: was my job. So and that's my responsibilit because that

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Speaker 3: was my area. Everybody likes to everybody likes to have

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Speaker 3: control of their patch. Area, No, I understand, so certain,

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Speaker 3: just some instructions to dy make sure they get some

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Speaker 3: scrapings under her fingernails, different things, all those sort the

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Speaker 3: things that.

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Speaker 1: She was under arrest.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't under.

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Speaker 3: Arrest, right, She was in custody basically, I guess she

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Speaker 3: would say under the new terms with two thousand, because

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Speaker 3: she had a police officer with her. But she wasn't going.

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Speaker 1: Anywhere because she was she was foggy down in the

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Speaker 1: nitty grit.

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Speaker 3: She was, she was really groggy. She wasn't going anywhere,

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Speaker 3: and she was taking to Mayland Hospital where she was

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Speaker 3: placed into the psychiatric ward because once the hospital found

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Speaker 3: out why she was.

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Speaker 2: There that she was, she was put straight.

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Speaker 3: They think there must be something mentally wrong with this

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Speaker 3: woman because of what she alleged she's done. So she

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Speaker 3: went to the sight. Would where where she was I

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Speaker 3: guess tranquilized medicated would be, I guess because.

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Speaker 2: Until we knew what.

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Speaker 3: Was going on, I think that was the decision's medical

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Speaker 3: practitioners to continue to medicate it. But I think they

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Speaker 3: medicated it also because she'd taken a lot of prescription medication,

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Speaker 3: mainly painkillers those sorts of things. But which we found

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Speaker 3: out later through the investigation that it would have It

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Speaker 3: would have made her quite sick. It would have made

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Speaker 3: a drowsy and put her asleep, but it wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to kill her. So obviously we've looked at her, we're

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Speaker 3: looking we were looking at a potential murder suicide if

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Speaker 3: she passed away. But the doctor said, mate, she hasn't

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Speaker 3: consumed enough to kill her, so she's going to eventually

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Speaker 3: wake up. So how they medicated her through that to

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Speaker 3: get her up And basically she was never under guard

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Speaker 3: in that in that psychiatric wood.

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Speaker 2: Because she was they weren't going to let her out.

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Speaker 1: I've been speaking to people in there. It's a cured era,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, get out.

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Speaker 3: So we were left with, Okay, she's not going anywhere.

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Speaker 3: We've got this crime scene which the guys are coming done.

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Speaker 2: It was video.

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Speaker 3: Recorded, and it was a matter of okay, we've got

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Speaker 3: these guys. He'd made it was about time to start

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Speaker 3: getting some statements and commencing a brief of evidence. And

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Speaker 3: that's all we got about doing, was you know, and

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Speaker 3: as you know, in investigation, one statement lease to another statement,

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Speaker 3: loose one other statement.

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Speaker 1: Where you'd be starting with these workmates and the person

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Speaker 1: that called the part.

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Speaker 3: And you know, and because it was like a little

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Speaker 3: place like Aberdeen, it was a big thing. It was

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Speaker 3: a big because everybody knows everybody. You know, it's one

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Speaker 3: of those more country towns again where one happens in

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Speaker 3: Downstown Erskineville. Some people wouldn't bannle it at it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: another murder or some parts of Sydney.

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Speaker 2: It's just a but it.

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Speaker 3: Was a big thing for a town like that. And

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Speaker 3: of course everybody went to everybody and that everybody's chin

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Speaker 3: was wagging out of control and.

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Speaker 2: People came forward.

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Speaker 3: See I saw I saw it her two o'clock walking

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Speaker 3: back towards the house.

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Speaker 2: You know, in the thongs. Well you're a loud of it.

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Speaker 3: She just looked like she was in a trance walking

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Speaker 3: back to the house. This woman puts a dog out

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Speaker 3: it every morning at two o'clock and runs out of

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Speaker 3: the lawn as a leak, runs back inside. It just

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Speaker 3: so happened it this morning, same thing, she's walking back towards.

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Speaker 2: The house, you know.

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Speaker 3: So there was just statement aftter statement saying to get

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Speaker 3: to build this brief because we knew there was probably

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Speaker 3: going to be a number of days delay in getting

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Speaker 3: an opportunity, if we were ever going to get an

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Speaker 3: opportunity to an interviewer, whether she would have been capable

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Speaker 3: to be interviewed, because this is the big thing you

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Speaker 3: think about, well, you know, and we're ever going to

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Speaker 3: get a chance and anyway.

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Speaker 1: So in those days, you're gathering as much evidence as

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Speaker 1: you can with statements. Did it start to paint a

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Speaker 1: picture in your mind?

243
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Speaker 3: Painted a picture that it wasn't rosy in a relationship,

244
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Speaker 3: painted a picture that they could have a blue at

245
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Speaker 3: any time, But it didn't paint a picture of what

246
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 3: had happened. It was just the messy situation where they

247
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Speaker 3: didn't they got on to start with. I think because

248
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Speaker 3: it was a new relationship for them both again, and

249
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Speaker 3: sex is a big part of a new relationship and

250
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,839
Speaker 3: those sort of things, things are rosy. When he got

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Speaker 3: down to the nitty gritty and a bit of reality

252
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Speaker 3: sets in, things started to changing a little bit for

253
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Speaker 3: a lot of couples, and I think and it was

254
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Speaker 3: they'd burned together for quite a while, so maybe it

255
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,360
Speaker 3: was just coming towards itatural end. And as I progress

256
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Speaker 3: through the information, I sort of got more of a

257
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Speaker 3: clearer picture of why she may have taken such drastic

258
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Speaker 3: measures as what she did.

259
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Speaker 1: In gathering the evidence. Did you did you turn over

260
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Speaker 1: her place?

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00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 3: Turn her place over down it with a search warrant

262
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 3: then on the main highway in Aberdeen. And it was

263
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 3: a house that was full of horror movies. How he

264
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 3: had a fixation for all sorts of horror movies, all

265
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Speaker 3: genres of horror. I think there was still a lot.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of DVDs were sort of on the

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00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 3: rise in that era. There was both so moving to

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00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 3: a more modern toile collection than others, but it was

269
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Speaker 3: all horror. There was a huge amount of stuffed animals

270
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Speaker 3: throughout the house, but a lot of a huge library

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Speaker 3: of horror movies.

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Speaker 2: How many are we doing? I probably talk him probably

273
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,559
Speaker 2: one hundred or more. You know, they were creepy.

274
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Speaker 3: Well that's but all that sort of stuff that people into.

275
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Speaker 1: Horror by the stuffed animals as in toysh.

276
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Speaker 3: No no like birds and eagles and all sorts of

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00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 3: natural wildlife for.

278
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 2: A fauna straight out of those sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: So it was sort of and it was a dank,

280
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Speaker 3: dark house, you know, and there was I think a

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00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 3: little bit of premeditation started to end in my mind

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Speaker 3: when because the evidence flowed that she was at her

283
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 3: his house in her car, then it was gone at

284
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Speaker 3: a certain time of night, was taken back to her house.

285
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Speaker 3: It had driven right into the backyard of a place

286
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 3: like it was a possession thing. Someone around midnight, at

287
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 3: a minute to midnight was at Musclebrook with his key card,

288
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 3: took five hundred dollars out, waited for a minute past

289
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 3: midnight to take another five hundred out because obviously.

290
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 2: Had a limit of five hundred on his account.

291
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,120
Speaker 3: Prettymede knew enough was in the mind of enough to

292
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 3: be able to go and do that sort of activity

293
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 3: with a cup card with his Cree card.

294
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: And then because the Creek card was found back at the.

295
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,760
Speaker 1: Scene, okay, so this is prior or post the murder.

296
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 1: You're thinking, this is post the murder, okay.

297
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 3: And then she's gone back to the premises after getting

298
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 3: rid of her she's obviously on the muscle Brook yeap,

299
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 3: taking the money out, taking the cash somewhere to her home,

300
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 3: I would imagine, or someone her car back to her

301
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 3: own home and parked by the backyard, so that was

302
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,160
Speaker 3: on her property. And then we're seenhim walking back to

303
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 3: the scene at two am.

304
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Speaker 1: That's that I would be thinking, putting the homicide had on,

305
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,360
Speaker 1: how do we get to this, you'd be looking that's

306
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,600
Speaker 1: good evidence to rebut any mental health issues, isn't It's she's.

307
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 2: Pretty switch on.

308
00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like there's no insanity that as a defense

309
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: when she's capable of Okay, well, I can withdraw money,

310
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 1: I can cover the tracks. I know what I've done

311
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: is wrong, and I'm going to try and cover my tracks.

312
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 3: But I think the money was possibly because of the

313
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 3: attempt to take her own life relation to the prescription medication.

314
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 3: The money was for someone because you had young children yourself. Okay,

315
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 3: that's a summation at that stage. But no money was

316
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,120
Speaker 3: ever found, and that was the search of a car

317
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 3: the premises the whole boxing. I say, whether someone else

318
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 3: was involved or she'd burned this to someone, Yeah, that

319
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 3: was not established at that stage.

320
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: So how many days after you've attended the crime scene

321
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: are we looking at before you got to speak to her.

322
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 3: The afternoon of the next day, Because we worked all

323
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 3: through that first night and the end of the next day.

324
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Speaker 3: I sort of had a bit of an episode where

325
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Speaker 3: I thought that this was getting a bit much.

326
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Speaker 2: You know.

327
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Speaker 3: So I was sort of heading home and I sort

328
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Speaker 3: of took a bit of a.

329
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Speaker 2: Bit of a left turn and went down to and

330
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Speaker 2: I spoke.

331
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Speaker 3: I rang Phil Lloyd, who was prosecutor at Newcastle and

332
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,520
Speaker 3: a well respected coscutter, and he said, come down, come

333
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 3: down home, and we'll have a couple of beers and

334
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 3: we'll just see how things work. So I had it,

335
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 3: went down to Phil's house and we spent some time

336
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,399
Speaker 3: and said, look, I said, I think I'm going to

337
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 3: get a chance to interview this girl, this woman, and

338
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 3: I'm thinking that I might make applications if I get

339
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 3: the video unit, because it was only ever going to

340
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 3: be done in the hospital. And Phil said, that's a

341
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 3: good idea. What we'll do is we'll get the video unit.

342
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 3: And he said I'll come up that day and we'll interviewer,

343
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,360
Speaker 3: or you can interview her. And he said, oh wait outside,

344
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,920
Speaker 3: but he just put my toes a little bit to say, mate,

345
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:40,000
Speaker 3: it's not going to get on top of you.

346
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 2: I've only got one person interview.

347
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 3: So I took Phil's guidance and appreciated it very much.

348
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 3: He said, right that sort of perked me up a

349
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,359
Speaker 3: little bit more confident. So about three days later, I've

350
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 3: got the opportunity to interviewer at Maitland Hospital.

351
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so you went in there with the video opera.

352
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 3: Well, first off, I made sure I had plenty of

353
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 3: paperwork from the hospital to say that she's able to

354
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 3: be interviewed. She's aware, she's she's got all faculties about her.

355
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,159
Speaker 3: She's not saying any signs of she's been assessed by

356
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,199
Speaker 3: psycho psychiatrists too, said that look she's fine to she's lucid,

357
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 3: she understands, she's alert, she's.

358
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 2: She can receive retain relay, that's information, so she can

359
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 2: say she can be interviewed.

360
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 3: She had a barrister and young solicitor there and the

361
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,480
Speaker 3: barrister said, look, it won't take long. She says she

362
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 3: can't remember anything, so just go in there and run

363
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,400
Speaker 3: through the motions.

364
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: She's going to tell you.

365
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,360
Speaker 3: She doesn't know what happened, she's got no idea and

366
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 3: so you'll only.

367
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 2: Be in there five minutes. So we went and.

368
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 3: Close to an hour of an hour later we came

369
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 3: out to a nation face. Barrister doesn't know what she said.

370
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 3: Her solicitor was in there with that during the interview.

371
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 3: But the interview sort of went from I think she

372
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 3: really had a lot to say, but it wasn't about

373
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,359
Speaker 3: what she'd done, it was about what had happened to

374
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 3: her during her life.

375
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: Did you put the information to her that this is

376
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: what we're found when we've come into the premises, you

377
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: are asleep in the bed and card all that.

378
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, nothing was put well to her. Nothing was

379
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 3: not put to her, nothing at all. But and because

380
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 3: the allegation had to be there for her, allegedly us

381
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 3: thinking that she was going to say, look, I've got

382
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 3: no idea what happened. I've got nothing to say, you know,

383
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 3: you know, just but she just started to talk about

384
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 3: this is I can tell you what's happened to me

385
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 3: over the years. And I don't know, I can't really

386
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 3: remember the word for word interview, but basically the crux

387
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 3: of the story was that she'd been through a number

388
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:52,439
Speaker 3: of relationships. She had a very hard upbringing as a child,

389
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 3: had had a father who was abusive towards a mother

390
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: sexually and physically, with a almost.

391
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 2: On a daily basis.

392
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 3: As she witnessed and moved the rent moved on to

393
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 3: her relationships through the years of one marriage and then

394
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 3: three mile partners afterwards, and basically.

395
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 2: I just kept it going. Just will tell me about it.

396
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 3: And it was probably after we got to the second

397
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 3: partner after her husband, John Chillingworth. Mind you, she had

398
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 3: she had children to all of these first three men

399
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 3: for John Prist, and I thought, well, just let it

400
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 3: go and that's what she's and then then then started

401
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 3: the twig. Well, if this is the case, it can

402
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 3: be there can be two scenarios. So these things really

403
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 3: happened to her, which forced her to say, look, I've snapped,

404
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 3: I've had enough for this. I'm not going to go

405
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 3: through this again with John Price, and I'm going to

406
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 3: fucking get him, you know. Or she's leading me down

407
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 3: a path of I'm a better wife and this is

408
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 3: what's happened to me trying to build the defense, and

409
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 3: this is what she's going to present a trial. So

410
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 3: you just got to let the interview go the way

411
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 3: it goes. You know that as far as what she'd

412
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 3: actually done, could remember, I had no idea.

413
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: I don't remember that.

414
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 3: Okay, But I had a woman who could remember finite

415
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,719
Speaker 3: details as she told me about what happened to her

416
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 3: through her life with her male partners, husband of male

417
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 3: partners over the years, but not even the sheer resemblance

418
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 3: of what took part three nights earlier to what happened to.

419
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: John Price selective memory loss. It's always interesting.

420
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 3: When you interview someone, you spend a lot of eye

421
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: contact with them, you know, and generally not a lot

422
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: comes out of that, especially when someone is saying that

423
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 3: I can't remember things, but this Sometimes you might have

424
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 3: a pause and a little bit of a break and

425
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 3: you'll just catch their eye with your eye. And I

426
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 3: did it on one occasion. It happened to me, and

427
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 3: it left me with an impression that she knows. She's

428
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 3: just not going there, never going to go there. It's

429
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 3: a movement of the eye and it's a swallow that

430
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: they are, just a facial expression that they make that

431
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 3: you know that I could spend days here continuing with

432
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: this stuff, but I'm never going to get her to say, yeah,

433
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: I murdered him or I killed him, or I did

434
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: this or I did that on that night. It was

435
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 3: never going to go there. So I just had to

436
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: take it to the end of where what she wanted

437
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: to tell me about what happened to her and leave

438
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 3: me with a ruster's why she might have done what

439
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: she'd done, even know she wouldn't.

440
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: Admit to it.

441
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's yeah, that's all you can get in

442
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: that those circumstances you touched on there, that you got

443
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 1: that glimpse and I know that that subtle body movement

444
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: or something that you picked up that this is I.

445
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 3: Know you know, had to lend me. Yeah a little bit.

446
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: What was your overall impression of it. Did she come

447
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: across as a normal person, like guilty of a crime

448
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: like that or capable of committing a crime like that?

449
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: Did she give off an unusual vibe to her when

450
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: you were speaking to her, or how did she present?

451
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: It was like a little bit like Jacky and Hyde,

452
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: where Jekyl had a lot of things happened to them

453
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 3: in their life and Hyde says, I haven't done anything.

454
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 2: You know.

455
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 3: So it was that sort of interview and that sort

456
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 3: of thing.

457
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: But looks she was in stature.

458
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: She is quite a tall woman, quite strong looking, hardened,

459
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 3: never broke down at all when she spoke, even when

460
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 3: she spoke about what had happened to her in the past.

461
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 3: It was just like this has happened to me. And

462
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 3: I don't know whether she was maybe giving it, but

463
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 3: I got through that because I'm tough or you know,

464
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: it was just a weird feeling. So I ended that

465
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: interview with, well, what have I got here? You know,

466
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: I think I've got a defense being presented to me.

467
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: Where this is going to go when it gets a trial,

468
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 3: because this is definitely going a trial. And so it

469
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: was the better why syndrome that and look, if that

470
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 3: was the case, I had to go and investigate that

471
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 3: matter deceive if it was that case.

472
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got to You've got to rebuff all yeah.

473
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: Exactly that evidence. And to be fair to everybody, you've

474
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: got to be fair as fear to them as you

475
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 3: can to be is fear to everybody else. Everybody else

476
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 3: deserves fairness in all these sorts of things. And that's

477
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: where you go, and that's right to go. So off

478
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 3: I was getting read off, I go, you.

479
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: Know, speaking to her ex partners people that know her, Yes, yep.

480
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: And did it did it come back like the way

481
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: that she was representing?

482
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: No, no it didn't.

483
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: So when I presented there was four male people that

484
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 3: were in this scenario. Her first husband, David kill It,

485
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: her second, the fact their partnered David Saunders. Her third,

486
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: John Chillingworth, and there was price. Apart from price, the

487
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: first three were a lot smaller men, all very similar,

488
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: but that good workers, big drinkers, and that's you know,

489
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: love to be. That was seven days a week, but

490
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 3: that was their life.

491
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: But they all worked.

492
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: And but they were all similar, stature, the same, and

493
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 3: all very similar in character, you know. So to interview

494
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: them all was to have a complete opposite picture, you know,

495
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 3: And a lot of the what they told me was

496
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: was backed up with with medical evidence, you know. Like

497
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: I remember David Sawner said to me, he said, mate,

498
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: I put it in his statements, he said.

499
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: I he said, I.

500
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: Was a bit frightened, But he said, not that frightened

501
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: to begin with. But she could snap very easily, and

502
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: we'd have a lot of verbal arguments. But he so,

503
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: I remember one night I came and joined me out.

504
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 3: He said, not come from the pub, he said. And

505
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: when I say late, he said, I wasn't hours late.

506
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 3: So I didn't stagger in a four in the morning.

507
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: He said, I came here twenty minutes late, and she

508
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 3: was When I say she ironed me out. She was

509
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 3: standing behind the kitchen door as I came in, and

510
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: as I turned around to see her, that's the last

511
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 3: thing I remember, because she's hit me with the steam.

512
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: Iine in a fist, breaking the jaw in multiple places.

513
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: I wake up his muscle. The hospital wired up lock a.

514
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 2: You know. Was she charged with that.

515
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: I'm not sure whether he decided to bet on with

516
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: that assault.

517
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, he might have.

518
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: He could have. I can't remember. And John Chillingworth was

519
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 3: the next. And then after there was another incident with

520
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: Saunders about twelve months later where he was laid having

521
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: the pub again not extremeulate. His dog had just had

522
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: a litter of pups and as he got home, she

523
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: came out the back and she held one of the

524
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: pups and cut her head off in front of him,

525
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: and she said, if you fucking come home late any

526
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: more from the pub, you'll get the same thing.

527
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: That's creepy. That's creepy.

528
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 3: That was That was the last draw. That was the

529
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: last straw. That was the last straw for David Saunders.

530
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 3: He was out, he was I snuck out. I snuck

531
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: up that morning at two a m. With what clothes

532
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: I was wearing.

533
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: And left best decision his mate. He had to leave his.

534
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 3: Daughter, young daughter behind with with that biggest That's the

535
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: way it was. And then you know, she just then

536
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: moved straight on to John Chillingworth.

537
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: Did he have a story like that? Basically he was.

538
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: He was. I said I was assaulted a lot. And

539
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: he had a little bit of that.

540
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: Man thing about him where he's trying to not make

541
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: himself look weak, I guess. But he said, you know,

542
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: she would just attack me in the car when I'm

543
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 3: driving and pull my glasses off and twist him up

544
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 3: and break them and throw me out the window and

545
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: all those sorts of things and just laying the me

546
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: in punch. And he was quite a passive sort of guy, Johnny,

547
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 3: I would never hit a woman, he said, no, you

548
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: know I suffered black eyes. I did, and there was

549
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: medical of he had to go to a hospital one

550
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: time and be treated for I think a broken nose

551
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 3: or something. But he said, I've actually got a pair

552
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 3: of old glasses here. You know it Saw went into

553
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: the brief. I've got a pair of glasses took my

554
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 3: face and screwed up. You know, I had to wear

555
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: them sort of a bit weird until I got a

556
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: new set of glasses, but he said, for some reason,

557
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: I've always hung on to them. So that went in

558
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: the brief. That was an exhibit. There's all those sorts

559
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: of things.

560
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: So you're building up a case here and that you're

561
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: rebutting the evidence or the things that she told you

562
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: and showing that and not be completely the opposite.

563
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: And I can only run the brief on what she

564
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: told me in that interview, you know, and what the

565
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: other witness has said, but basically to interviewer and get

566
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: the opportunity to interview. But you know, you always you

567
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: always wanted to know why why would you do that?

568
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: Why would you do that?

569
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: Why would you do that?

570
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: And that is with an exclamation mark that you know.

571
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: The post more than examination and the forensic pathologists. And

572
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure this would have formed part of the brief.

573
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: How difficult it this?

574
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: Is?

575
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: It to skinner person?

576
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: Stunning four cuts but complete all together?

577
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: And how long would it take and what sort.

578
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: Of well I guess that's that's a question for a

579
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: skilled fillter or b Yeah, because she was an avatar worker.

580
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's the type of thing that she was

581
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: very skilled with knives, Okay, very skilled.

582
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: And loved her knives.

583
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: Her first husband, David Killer, when they were married, she

584
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: attacked him the first night they were, on their wedding night.

585
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: Gave him a bit of a hiding because he only

586
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: had six three times in their wedding night where where

587
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: she was told by her mother that her father had

588
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: six six times with.

589
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: Her mother on their wedding night. So he fell short.

590
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: He fell short, so he said, mate, flog me, beat me.

591
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: And they used to. She used to mount the knives

592
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: above the bed. Loved knives, love the knives, you know,

593
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: so talk about red flags warnings. Eventually he just he left.

594
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: They had a couple children together, and then John Chillingworth.

595
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: They had a boy, him and Catherine Knight. But John

596
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: was the same. He said, I just got me in

597
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 3: the end. He said, all the ways I could work

598
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: out to try and pacify never worked, and he said,

599
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: I just got me down.

600
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: So I just left and led me.

601
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: Youngl Okay, how long into the investigation from the time

602
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: and the murder, did you form the view that she's.

603
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: Going to be charged? She was charged that day. Okay.

604
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: So after the interview, Phil Phil Lloyd was waiting outside

605
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: and because look it was a homicide. We knew she'd

606
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: communed this homicide because there was too much physical evidence.

607
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 3: There was just preciously there was just there was no

608
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: other explanation she done it. And I was quite confident

609
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: that after the interview that she needed to be charged

610
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: and some form of cussing decision made for her. So

611
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: it was actually Filloyd and I drove her back in

612
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: the hospital. Does she required any hospitalization any longer? Nope,

613
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: She's right to go. So we drove it to Newcastle

614
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: Police station with she was formally charged there. Yeah, bar refused,

615
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: bar refused, Yeah, and she remained bar refused. I'm not

616
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 3: sure whether she made any concerted attempts really through the

617
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: Supreme Court to get bail.

618
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: When did the Like you're running the investigation, so you've

619
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: got a lot of things happening. Was at the point

620
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: of when when she was charged and the facts were

621
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: presented at the court. When did it hit the media?

622
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: Because I remember it, but I was in the cops,

623
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: so we were hearing it sort of the direct.

624
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: When did it with the cops?

625
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: Event the cops went, the event went through well, look

626
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: a little town like Aberdeen. The press were the press

627
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: were there by the afternoon. Actually the press were there

628
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: by lunchtime really because they got pleae scanners say, can

629
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: hear what's going?

630
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: But did they know the nature of the It was

631
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: a fairly horrific murder. They weren't really aware of.

632
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: The press had worked out something, something.

633
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: Bad and it was a bad murder. It wasn't it

634
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: wasn't good.

635
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: But once the facts hit court probably three days later,

636
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: that's when it was like front page news. And that's

637
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: like when when she was going for just a routine

638
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: court here, because everything was through the muscle Brook Court

639
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: at that stage until I could get it back to

640
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: Newcastle really made it easy for custody reasons and different

641
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: things of transportation. But by the end it was any

642
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: time she was making an appearance of court, it there

643
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: was water wall cameras and photographers and reporters and so

644
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: it was a big girl because it was it was

645
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: a big deal, because that's those sorts of things you know,

646
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 3: we got back twenty four years ago in Australia. It

647
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: wasn't well worldwide, it's not a big thing, you know,

648
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: And of course we know how the press like to

649
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 3: they up the anti things, you know, and she was

650
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: known as the Australia's Hannibal Lecter. She was known as this,

651
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: she was known as that, And that money came from

652
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: the fact that once once the facts did hit court,

653
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: they realized that the head in the pot, They realized

654
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: that she'd removed parts of his rump and baked it

655
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 3: in the oven and cooked vegetables with his head, and

656
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: then dished up two plates of his rump and vegetables

657
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: and put two of John Price's children's names on those plates.

658
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: Whils.

659
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 3: So once once that was found out, by the principle

660
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: that really they really went into overdrive.

661
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: Australia's an Ableekta she.

662
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: She she wanted to feed these kids him.

663
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if she actually wanted to, but Walter

664
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: Miles were prepared, They were prepared, and the kids kids

665
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: often came around.

666
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's that's part of Gary, That's part of the.

667
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: Why why do that? You know?

668
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: And there word that in it?

669
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: Why kill someone?

670
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: But why that that extra yard? You know, that's the

671
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: that's the full nine yards.

672
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: And I think the question you're asking yourself, I am,

673
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: is why everyone's sort of fascinated by this?

674
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 2: It's just so bizarre.

675
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: Ye, it were strange, so I mean there's been mutilation, murders.

676
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: And different things, but this was out of the box.

677
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: It was you know, no, well, you've been in the

678
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: cops long enough, so have I. We've seen the brutality

679
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: of murder scenes, but this is just it's it's not

680
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: just killing the person, it's the post activities that really

681
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: is quite quite concerning. How long before she pleaded not guilty,

682
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: pleuted not guilty? Okay, how long did it take to

683
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: get the trial?

684
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: I think was within the eighteen months.

685
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: It was set down first Maitland District Court that's where

686
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: our label court was going to be. Panel the jury

687
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: took a little while because there was a few people

688
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: in the jury that now from miam Town. I know

689
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: the Techne well, so I've done him since he was

690
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 3: Can I get out of this dur That's what jurors do,

691
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: see missus Lee and these people that I knew, so

692
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 3: they are right. So And Frank Akoiffe was was the

693
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: Supreme Court Justice Johnny's father. He was, he was, he

694
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: was I thought, a great judge think in this matter.

695
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: But the panel the jury were ready to go, and

696
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: there was an application.

697
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: Made that.

698
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 3: In the absence of the jury then they've just gone

699
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: through the formalities as they do with the Crown and

700
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: the defense and the fence man application that when the

701
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: crime scene evidence goes in and especially the crime scene video,

702
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: that the he accused be exempted from being in court.

703
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 3: And of course Frank a people woudn't have any part

704
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: of it. He said, no, she will be in here.

705
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 3: She will be in here for that, for any other

706
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 3: evidence that goes before this court in relation to this matter,

707
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: the accused will be in the court. And that's sort

708
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: of I think that was a little bit of a

709
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: hard blade to take and on instructions, I think that

710
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: night we came back to court the next day reader

711
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: go with our first witness was an application in that

712
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,959
Speaker 3: they were prepared to plead to murder, and of course,

713
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 3: as you know, with a even a guilty plea of murder,

714
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: we still had to present all the evidence with a

715
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 3: number of witnesses. So, because Frank Kof is the explained

716
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: of the court, I want to a one hundred percent

717
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: short this woman that's committed the murder as a judge

718
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: for sentencing. So it was basically it was basically just

719
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: like a trial without a jury, but it was present

720
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: I put most of the evidence in. It's the officer

721
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: in charge of the case. The crime scene guys did

722
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: their bit, and basically but every exhibit, every bit of

723
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 3: evidence went into was presented and tagged into that court matter,

724
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: and she was present for the whole lot of it,

725
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 3: especially the crime scene video. With another applications made well,

726
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 3: now no longer can we excuse the accused from going

727
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: through this, and he said no, She's.

728
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: Going to go through it. So we.

729
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: Played the crime scen video to the court and probably

730
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 3: about two minutes three minutes into it, she became physically upset,

731
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 3: started the rock backwards and forwards, then started to get

732
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 3: to rock more, started to murmur, make strange noises, started

733
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: to weep, then started basically to rock uncontrollably and until

734
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: she collapsed on the floor in a in a state

735
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: of hysteria. So another ajourment, and but Frank o'coffe, to

736
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: his credit, said go and composer, because the accused all

737
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 3: the year whilst that evidence goes anyway. In the end,

738
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 3: she sat through it, got through it. But I was

739
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 3: a pleayar guilty, so it sort of lessened that.

740
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So there was no insanity or mental health issues

741
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: that she tried to present in the defense.

742
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 3: Was presented that she had a border that was suffering

743
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: borderline personality disorder. And you know there's a lot of

744
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: the population stuff as a form borderline personality disorder. But

745
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: it was presented in fantasy that her upbringing and what

746
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: she'd been through. But that's a sentence hearing. You'll always

747
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: have a sentence hearing where they'll do their utmost best

748
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 3: to present it and they presented a fair argument. But

749
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: I think in the end, Frank Curve Justice FRANKO Kleek

750
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: was satisfied that she committed this horrific murder. She'd shown

751
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: no remorse, she'd shown no cooperation in relation to how

752
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 3: or why that had happened. And I think that was

753
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: presented in his judgment in a way that he presented

754
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: it to say that society can do with you being

755
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 3: incarcerated until the day you pass away and mark the

756
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: papers never to be released, which is what she became

757
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: the first woman in Australia to have a papers.

758
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 2: Mark never to be released. I think it makes everyone

759
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: feel a little bit safer. Yeah, I guess if you

760
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: present a.

761
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: Present her as a danger to society, I think she

762
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 3: was or a danger to the people who became personally

763
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 3: involved with, especiallythically, but he was a sentiencing justice and

764
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: he thought that would be the best thing for the

765
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: community as a whole. Well, because you can't progress, you

766
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: can progress as a murderer.

767
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think again stepping back to

768
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: the crime, Yeah, there's a murder. If it's a crime

769
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: of passionate anger, revenge or whatever, it's the activities that

770
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: carried on after the murder that take it into that

771
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: different realm. That's why we're sitting here talking about what's

772
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: happened rather than someone that was murdered twenty years ago.

773
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 3: And most of my stuff is supposition. I surmise was

774
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 3: it because she'd reached the end of I've been through

775
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: three failed relationships, whether it be my fault or his

776
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: fault or their fault or whose fault, it's not going

777
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 3: to happen to me again, and if it does. Because

778
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: he'd actually decided to break it off with her, he said, look,

779
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: it's we're done, that's out. And then a couple of

780
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: times she'd always come back when he'd had a few beers,

781
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 3: and then that actually had sex the night of the murder, right, okay,

782
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: And she had got and washed herself in the shower

783
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: and the black neg lag was was on the dresser,

784
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 3: and there was evidence where she cleaned herself down. Well yeah,

785
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: well she she washed herself down in the shower when

786
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 3: those body parts of his flesh found in the shower

787
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 3: that she obviously it was a really frenzied attack, you know,

788
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: and she was never ever And then there's another thing

789
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: where you shower and clean yourself up from It's another

790
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 3: way of and watching all of these horror movies maybe

791
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: some certain ideas in her head. How do you how

792
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: do you cover up a crime? How do you how

793
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: do you not show that you were there? Or different things?

794
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: But at the end she did return to the scene,

795
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: you know, and they over dosed and was probably gonna

796
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: write but thinking well, I'm never going to wake up,

797
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 3: you know.

798
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: But but she didn't. She didn't kill herself.

799
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: Like I I'm lost for words on the whole thing.

800
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: It's just a crime that yeah, really shocked shocks people

801
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: the nature of it. And did you have dealings with

802
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: John Price's family?

803
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: How did they feel about it?

804
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: Did he have Look, they're very sorry that he's son.

805
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 3: Idolizing John Jr. Even his first wife still idolized him.

806
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: To her, there was never any and she was such

807
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 3: a passive lady, And she said, look, and her evidence

808
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 3: was he's just such a passive man. But you said,

809
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 3: and it was his passiveness probably that in their relationship

810
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: because you just didn't have a lot to get up and.

811
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: Go about him, you know.

812
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, never violent, never, And she moved on from that.

813
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: What a bit more, I guess, and lovely lady that

814
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: all the children love the kids, you know, and they were,

815
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: yeah there for even there for every man of forever

816
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 3: now known as the children.

817
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: And the guy who had this horrific thing happened to him.

818
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a hard thing, isn't it. And yeah,

819
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: we shouldn't forget, forget the family and the people close

820
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: to him that would impact and to have a loved

821
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: one killed in that manner, there's.

822
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: Terrible, folks.

823
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: Did she have any people supporting her at court?

824
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: I think the daughters were there from memory, but.

825
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 3: There was no outward emotion, but they were there. Yeah,

826
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: they were there, I think general support that salvation army

827
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: lady was there those sorts of things A sister and

828
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. But they were not overt in

829
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 3: there in anything.

830
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: They were there. It was the appropriate thing.

831
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 3: They were there, but they were there. I sort of

832
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 3: think they were also taken aback as well. They were

833
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: a little bit shocked she had done what she'd done,

834
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: but they were there.

835
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: They were there.

836
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind

837
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: the headlines of a gang war or shooting, then you

838
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: need to listen to crim City joined crime reporters Mark

839
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncovered the details of

840
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: crime unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that

841
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City

842
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: is out now. Listen early and ad free on crime

843
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: x plus on Apple podcast Today. How did how did

844
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: this investigation impact on you?

845
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 3: It's never left me, Gary, really, I live with it

846
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: every day. It's one of those things, you know. And

847
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 3: when I was still in the job, it was such

848
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 3: a huge thing for the media, and not that I

849
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: wanted to particularly become involved in that side of it,

850
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 3: but everybody wanted a piece of it, you know, And

851
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: there was shows, and there was there was international shows,

852
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: and there was different things. And in those days when

853
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 3: I was still in the job. I had that choice,

854
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 3: but taking as because as the commissioner and police would say, well,

855
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: you will be interviewed.

856
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: You know, that's get approval, and they so I did

857
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: as I told.

858
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 3: I'm no longer in there, but it's it's you know,

859
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: I still see a psych every month, not because of

860
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 3: this particular case. I mean, it was just the straw

861
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: that break the camel's back as far as my mental

862
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: health went.

863
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: But I sort of, as we spoke earlier in.

864
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: The show about I didn't realize until years longer that

865
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: that was the first chip that happened early in my career.

866
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: And it just wears you down. You've been there.

867
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 3: A lot of the guys and girls listening to this today,

868
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: they've been there.

869
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: You know.

870
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 3: It's just it's what coping mechanisms you put into place

871
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 3: to just deal with your life, you know. And probably

872
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: it has affected me emotionally, and it's affected my character.

873
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: It's made me not probably sometimes the greatest person to

874
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: be around. But I've just got people who care about me,

875
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 3: and you know, they they stick close. And but it's

876
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 3: not just Catherine Knights Matter that's in the position. I've

877
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: been diagnosed as a severe chronic PTSD, chronic moons. It's

878
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 3: just there forever severe moons has not great. But it's

879
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 3: about the coping mechanisms and just how.

880
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: You deal with it, you know, and the.

881
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: Psychological help that I get just keeps me going.

882
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: You because you had a break after this, and you

883
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: didn't leave the police, but you took time off.

884
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: I took a sick leave and I really dabbled with

885
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: the idea of not going back to work. But it

886
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 3: was unfinished business because that was before this is while

887
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 3: the matter was still live. By the time I'd finished

888
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 3: the investigation and the brief was done, and the DPP

889
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 3: he'd had it, and I'd done the last requisition, you know,

890
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: requisitions too.

891
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: I remember requisitions. They usually come in on a Friday night.

892
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 3: And there's normally about twenty items on them. And so

893
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 3: by time and I thought, well this is it, you know,

894
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: maybe I've just got to have a break. I went

895
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 3: off sick for a while, and it actually transferred from

896
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: Singleton and Hunt VLLY command to take up a position

897
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 3: as one of the tag units were being brought in

898
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: as of the first of July two thousand, so I

899
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 3: was asked to take a team leader role in one

900
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: of those TAG risks being developed for the Hunter.

901
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: Rougis and just explain to people what the tag the other.

902
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 3: News you said units set up as a target action

903
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 3: group to target specific areas of crime around that.

904
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: Like a bit of a mobile sort of there's a

905
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: lot of breakings in the town in an area, yeah,

906
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: target same thing.

907
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: A bit of drug work need to be done. Those

908
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: sorts of things you could be utilized. And it was

909
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 3: a rugent utilization. So you can be used to go

910
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 3: to tweed gout to the north coast anywhere, and basically

911
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 3: the support unit as well as anything. And it was

912
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: a little bit of an area for aspiring playing closed

913
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: guys to come into it if they were thinking about that,

914
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 3: don't have a trip to the TAG. If I like

915
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 3: that style of work, maybe well I don't like it,

916
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 3: I'll go back to the general gits or I'll go

917
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 3: to the High Patrol. So that's what those units were.

918
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: So it was that period that I took a bit

919
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: sick leave and dabbled with the idea that I'm not

920
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 3: going to go back to work, but I thought, no,

921
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: that's I've not only have I've got to see this

922
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 3: matter through the night.

923
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 2: Matter.

924
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 3: It's I'm just not done with work and I'm not

925
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 3: done with a work life, not just because it was

926
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 3: the police saw that job. I wasn't done with a

927
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 3: work life. To present a person to my children that

928
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 3: I just haven't given up on. You know, I'm not

929
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 3: going to take a pension and look like a pension

930
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: of it in my forties. YEA, that's not I had

931
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: this little thing in the back of my head that said,

932
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 3: that doesn't present a good example to your children, and

933
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: so that sort of drove me on as well. So

934
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: I did another ten years and the cops, yeah, after

935
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: Catherine Knight, before I.

936
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: Decided it just was time.

937
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: Now.

938
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 3: The time now as the time. It was thirty close

939
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 3: to thirty two years, and I thought, I've given them

940
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: the best shot.

941
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: I've done.

942
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 3: I've done a lot of things in the job, you know,

943
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: I've got no regrets. The journey was everything I expected them,

944
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 3: probably a little bit more, and so I thought, I

945
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 3: don't really need this stress anymore.

946
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: No, It's interesting because the fact that you identified you

947
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: had that problem, you took time off, and you came

948
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: back and put another ten years in. That that doesn't

949
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: often happen. Quite often, you see people. It becomes that

950
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: they put their hand up one time and then get

951
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: some help and then come back and then feel like

952
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: it's not for them. But another ten years.

953
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: How long in the cops did you spend? Just under

954
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 2: thirty two? See you put in the big, big numbers,

955
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: put enough in?

956
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 3: Well think so, I don't think people see it as

957
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 3: a career these days anymore. Lot we spoke earlier, some do,

958
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 3: but generally, you know a lot of people would give

959
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 3: a crack for five years, a lot of the younger generation,

960
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: but a lot that with a lot of jobs do

961
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: think something for five years and say well, I've done this,

962
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 3: I'll move on and try something else.

963
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: But what saddens me current times and that we're not

964
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: just talking New South Wales place. It's across the across

965
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: the country. And the federal police they can't attract people

966
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: to policing. And I sit down with you and talk

967
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: about your career and have a laugh and cry and

968
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: everything else that goes on with policing. But it's such

969
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: a good career we can't attract purchase.

970
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 3: And I've met some wonderful people in this organization, wonderful people,

971
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 3: you know, I've met a lot of people who weren't

972
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 3: suited to the job. Sometimes I don't know whether I

973
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 3: really was suited or not, but I enjoyed my journey

974
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 3: in my trip through it. Would I recommend it to.

975
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: My children or my grandchildren.

976
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: Probably probably not, Okay, probably not, because I don't want

977
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 3: to see them go through that long term pain at

978
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 3: the end of it if it doesn't work.

979
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: Out for them.

980
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: No, that's I can understand where you're coming from. When

981
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm asked whether people should join the police or go

982
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: down that part, I say, from my point of view, yeah,

983
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: I love the job, but understand it will change you.

984
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: It will change you as a person. Whether that's better

985
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: or worse, you don't know until you've gone there.

986
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 3: It will change you very quickly too. Yeah, I'm saying

987
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 3: that's to my children.

988
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

989
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: But if someone wants to have a heart art cityw

990
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 3: on I'm thinking to join the cops, I'd say, well,

991
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 3: you've got to. If you want to have a crack,

992
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: have a crack. I would recommend it for my children

993
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 3: because I don't want it, you know. But if someone's

994
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 3: got to join it, someone's got to do the work.

995
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 3: You know, it's got to be done. It's something that

996
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 3: we can't say, and.

997
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: It's from your point of view. It's worthwhile, isn't it.

998
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 1: You feel like you're doing something worthwhile. You look back

999
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: at your career and yeah.

1000
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: I think so, Yeah, I do think so. Yeah.

1001
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: You may make a difference in what they have a

1002
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: little way, but you're making it making a difference. What

1003
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: caused you? And I know we've talked as old cops

1004
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: do or old X cops tend to do, and talk

1005
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: about the problems with the job. It's not like our

1006
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: day and all that's of stuff. What caused you?

1007
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: More stress?

1008
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: The investigations or management, a.

1009
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 3: Bit of both, but managements. I've never been in. The

1010
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 3: highest management level I reached was for three years at

1011
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 3: the region office. In getting closer words in my career

1012
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: was I filled in in a relieving capacity as an

1013
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 3: inspector in charge of the Northern Region Internal Fear Section,

1014
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 3: so but never ever got confirmed in the position. So

1015
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: I did it so I realized I could do that.

1016
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: I was never stopped because I wasn't able to do

1017
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 3: that job. I was stopped because eventually there was someone

1018
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: with a bit of sadness in another area needed a

1019
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 3: position to be filled, so they plumped in and moved

1020
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: me back to my substantive positions. As soon as I

1021
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: couldn't do it, I did it so years myself to myself,

1022
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 3: I was, I was, I was job satisfied in that.

1023
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 3: But yeah, but manage and we talk about the Night matter.

1024
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: It was a bit of a stumbling block. And sometimes

1025
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 3: people get made, get paid quite postential money in this

1026
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 3: organization to make a decision. Yet sometimes it seems to

1027
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 3: be so hard for them.

1028
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: To make that decision.

1029
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 3: And the problem I was faced with with Night, there

1030
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 3: was a lot of work to be done after that interview,

1031
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: a lot of work to be done, a lot of

1032
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 3: statements to be obtained, a lot of evidence to be gathered,

1033
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 3: a lot of evidents be gathered, and a lot of

1034
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 3: which was going to take a lot of travel to

1035
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 3: track people down, interview them, get them on paper. And

1036
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 3: because I was in that transfers stage from Hunter Valley,

1037
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: likely with Kamar, to the regional officers, it became I

1038
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 3: went to the to the to the bosses. Now listen,

1039
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 3: this is this is a situation. This has got to

1040
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 3: be done.

1041
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: Oh right, right, what do you need?

1042
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 3: Well, I need to go and in view these people.

1043
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 3: Where are they I said, well, they're all over the place.

1044
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 3: They're not all living in the one street next to

1045
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: each other.

1046
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: I said, there.

1047
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 3: Some are in Coffsarbors, some are in some are in Maury,

1048
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 3: some are in the South Coast, somewhere out west, somewhere

1049
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: in Newcastle, somewhere in the Hunta Valley. But right, so

1050
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 3: what do you need to do? I said, Well, I

1051
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 3: just need a made a vehicle and a laptop and

1052
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 3: a car. A car and a laptop, thanks very much. Well,

1053
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: who's going to give you the car?

1054
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 2: I said? Sorry?

1055
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 3: You know, if I could make my own decisions, I'll

1056
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 3: just go and get one.

1057
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: But I can't.

1058
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 3: You got to make a decision. I need a car

1059
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 3: and some traveling allowance and I need a laptop. Right, Well,

1060
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: who's going to give you that? That's that's what I'm

1061
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: asking you for, your sure decision, not mine. And it

1062
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: was really disheartening to see these people.

1063
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 1: There to make decisions that can't make decisions.

1064
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: Pay the big bucks that can't make a.

1065
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 2: Decision, I think with leadership, and it was all.

1066
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 3: About dollars, Gary, it was all about the almighty dollar.

1067
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: Jesus, Bob, haven't you worked out now that you can

1068
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: look very good in your application. If you've saved the

1069
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: organization made it says you could have gone so much

1070
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: higher if you just realize that. Look, I don't want

1071
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: to come across as a cynic with police. We enjoy it.

1072
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: It's a robust, robust organization. We have their fun. We

1073
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: take the piss out of each other and criticize the

1074
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: bosses and vice versa. But in leadership, the thing that

1075
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: would frustrate me is the leaders that are getting paid

1076
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: to leaders. That's the structure of the police paid the

1077
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: leaders that couldn't make decisions. I don't always agree with decisions,

1078
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: but sometimes at crunch time, when the pressures on, you

1079
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: need someone to make a decision, and when you've got

1080
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: a boss there that won't make a decision one way

1081
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: or the other, that's the worst type of leadership. Make

1082
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: a decision a lot wrong, be it right or wrong.

1083
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: Take the consequences, but I'll respect you if you make

1084
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: a decision. It's the ones that couldn't make a decision

1085
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: and just sort of sit back and watch see if

1086
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: it all blows up, and then they'll come in after

1087
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: and take credit if it's success or just some distance.

1088
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: If it's not.

1089
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 3: But it was that was probably the most disappointing thing

1090
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 3: about the whole brief. Was it just that it was

1091
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 3: easy stuff to do, but it just needed a bit

1092
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: of travel to do it. And it was just it was,

1093
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 3: it was and that took time to get that decision

1094
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 3: to be made, you know. And it's at the time

1095
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 3: you see that as time that you don't really have,

1096
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, it was, but it was

1097
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 3: got on with it. But it's frustrating, and that's the

1098
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 3: main thing. You just walk out of those scenarios thinking

1099
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 3: to yourself, like, it's just you know, it's just crazy.

1100
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 3: It's not I didn't want a million dollars, mate, I

1101
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 3: just wanted I just wanted a car with some fuel

1102
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 3: and with a fuel card and a bit of too.

1103
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 3: You ain't going to wrap this thing up.

1104
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I understand your frustration with it. Your life

1105
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: now post cops, you're enjoying yourself.

1106
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: I think, so.

1107
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've discovered a bit of travel. I'd never liked flying,

1108
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 3: never get on a plane, So I'm racking up a

1109
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 3: few ear miles now. My wife and I go to

1110
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 3: We've been to Europe a couple of times, a couple

1111
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: of nice little trips. We've got grandkids and kids in

1112
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 3: the UK that we visit. My wife's a Kiwi so

1113
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 3: she's got family there with jet across the ditch quite often,

1114
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 3: those sorts of things.

1115
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, like things are pretty good.

1116
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 3: We've a lot of grandkids, are keeper's hopping, babysitting, plenty

1117
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 3: of sports with the older grandkids, a footy, bit of netball,

1118
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. So we're very busy, and I

1119
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 3: think that's.

1120
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: What helps you get through those sorts of things.

1121
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're living a good life, well, doing

1122
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: my best. Yeah, you're doing pretty best, but.

1123
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 3: I still have still, I still have my moments, you know,

1124
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: those sorts of things. So with the psych and am

1125
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: a missus. She keeps me on straight and narrow. That's

1126
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 3: as best as I can. But yeah, look she's a

1127
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 3: great travel companion. We seem to get on exceptionally well

1128
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 3: when we're traveling.

1129
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: You know, well, I saw you both turn up this

1130
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: morning and you look like you've been getting on well.

1131
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 3: When we become stationary and hang around the house a

1132
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: little bit, the things get to hot rain, so that

1133
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 3: could be the case. But anyway, now it looks things

1134
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 3: are pretty good. Yeah, I just I'm never going to

1135
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 3: be one hundred percent emotionally and mentally, and that's just

1136
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 3: a fact of life, you know. But in saying that,

1137
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: I'm not Roberson Cruise on that, but in that on

1138
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 3: that boat, you know, there's plenty of others and there's

1139
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 3: some worse off than me.

1140
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: So I just, you know, well, full full credit to

1141
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: you to have the honesty to talk about it, and also, yeah,

1142
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: dealing with it, you're dealing with it, you're acknowledging it,

1143
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: and you're making the best of the same.

1144
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 3: I know I can be I can be cranky and

1145
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: hard to get along with, but that's that's part of

1146
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 3: what that does to you.

1147
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 2: And who knows.

1148
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 3: Had I've not joined the cops, I may have been

1149
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 3: it up like that. But but I can only say

1150
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: how it affected me, and that's and that's it chips

1151
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 3: away at you. That's what you can And it just

1152
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 3: wasn't Catherine. I I was well, I was well in

1153
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 3: trouble before that was just a tip of it. I

1154
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 3: was well in trouble before that before that brief came along.

1155
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: You know.

1156
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: For sure, that so okay, And most people are by

1157
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: the time they get it's around that twenty years. You know,

1158
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 3: if you if you're fully operational up to twenty years,

1159
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 3: you've you've you're starting to feel head.

1160
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: And that pressure, that pressure, that pressure, that constant pressure.

1161
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: I do understand what you're talking about, but well we

1162
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 1: might wrap it up at this point. But I just

1163
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: want to thank you, Bob for service to the community.

1164
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: And I mean that like thirty years in the Cops'

1165
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: and the stuff that you've done, you've you've picked the

1166
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,919
Speaker 1: ball all up and run with it, so full full

1167
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: credit to you on that. Thanks for being the type

1168
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: of cop that I think we need to a practical

1169
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: approach to policing. And you're obviously a people person and

1170
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: I think that carries a lot of weight in policing

1171
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: and that makes everyone's job that much easier. I remember

1172
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: you from the Detective's course, and you were someone that

1173
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: got on with people and that communication that helps a

1174
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: great deal.

1175
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: That was some good people in that course and I

1176
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 3: really enjoyed it. But there's some great poplent the cops.

1177
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 3: You know, friends forever, friends for life.

1178
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: It's good.

1179
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: Thanks Gary, all right, and thanks for making the way

1180
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: to come here on eye catch killers not a problem

1181
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: all the best for the future.

1182
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, same to you, enjoy your travels, Thank you.

1183
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:46,479
Speaker 1: Good cheers. The murder of John Price by Catherine Knight

1184
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: is one of the most macabre and bizarre murders I've

1185
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: heard about in my entire time in homicide. There's some

1186
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: crimes that leave an indelible impression on you, and that's

1187
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 1: one that's certainly left an impression on Bob.

1188
00:59:58,560 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: But full credit to him.

1189
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: He's a country cop. He spent most of his time

1190
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: in the country and you can see why he was

1191
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: valued in the community, and full credit to him. And

1192
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: had a great time catching up with an old friend.