1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,001 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,010 --> 00:00:09,720 Sean Aylmer: One of the biggest growth areas in investing right now is 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,250 Sean Aylmer: ethical investing in ESG, environmental, social, and governance issues. Put 4 00:00:14,250 --> 00:00:16,810 Sean Aylmer: simply it's about investors wanting to put their money into 5 00:00:16,810 --> 00:00:19,850 Sean Aylmer: funds and companies that align with our own values. And 6 00:00:19,850 --> 00:00:23,570 Sean Aylmer: of course, still see solid returns. One such fund launched 7 00:00:23,570 --> 00:00:26,779 Sean Aylmer: in Australia last week with a hard exclusion approach to 8 00:00:26,780 --> 00:00:29,660 Sean Aylmer: a range of industries, meaning no money goes towards them. 9 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:32,979 Sean Aylmer: The People and Planet diversified fund by a Possible Funds 10 00:00:32,979 --> 00:00:35,800 Sean Aylmer: Management also looks at the companies that invests in to 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:41,220 Sean Aylmer: ensure no human rights violations, unethical corporate governance, or even deforestation. 12 00:00:41,780 --> 00:00:44,500 Sean Aylmer: Fiona Manning is the portfolio manager at Apostle Funds Management 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,410 Sean Aylmer: and my guest this morning. Fiona, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 14 00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:49,230 Fiona Manning: Thank you very much. Great to be here. 15 00:00:50,390 --> 00:00:53,370 Sean Aylmer: So you've said this fund is a natural evolution of 16 00:00:53,370 --> 00:00:58,560 Sean Aylmer: sustainable investing in Australia, and that it's unique in the marketplace. How? 17 00:00:59,010 --> 00:01:02,710 Fiona Manning: Well, I guess everyone is pretty familiar with negatively screened 18 00:01:02,710 --> 00:01:07,001 Fiona Manning: funds. They've literally been around for hundreds of years, (inaudible) 19 00:01:07,001 --> 00:01:09,569 Fiona Manning: through religious organizations. And they're all about sort of 20 00:01:09,569 --> 00:01:12,539 Fiona Manning: avoiding the bad, things that we're not necessarily comfortable having 21 00:01:12,550 --> 00:01:17,280 Fiona Manning: exposure to. But research shows that investors are increasingly interested 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,300 Fiona Manning: in positive impact. So not just avoiding things that they're 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,480 Fiona Manning: uncomfortable with, but also actively supporting the good. And also 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,300 Fiona Manning: investors are keen on getting diversification. We looked in the 25 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:29,949 Fiona Manning: marketplace, we didn't see anything that really fit the bill, 26 00:01:29,950 --> 00:01:31,130 Fiona Manning: so we decided to build one. 27 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,500 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. Okay. So let's run through, I'm interested in both 28 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:38,090 Sean Aylmer: sides of this coin. The things that you exclude and 29 00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:42,910 Sean Aylmer: the things that shareholders or unit holders want included the 30 00:01:42,910 --> 00:01:45,760 Sean Aylmer: fund. So let's start with the things you exclude. Are 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,670 Sean Aylmer: they the normal sorts of things? 32 00:01:47,970 --> 00:01:50,930 Fiona Manning: Yeah, they are some of the fairly normal things you would see. 33 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:56,260 Fiona Manning: Alcohol, tobacco, fossil fuels, animal welfare issues, and so on. 34 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:59,500 Fiona Manning: I guess what differentiates us in terms of our application 35 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:01,940 Fiona Manning: of the negative screens is that we have a hard 36 00:02:01,940 --> 00:02:04,559 Fiona Manning: exclusion. There's a lot of funds that will have sort 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,070 Fiona Manning: of a threshold of tolerance. So if a company derives 38 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:11,160 Fiona Manning: more than 5% of revenue from the production of fossil 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,590 Fiona Manning: fuels, that'll be okay to go in the fund. But 40 00:02:13,590 --> 00:02:16,959 Fiona Manning: we've sort of found that for values- based investors, any 41 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,150 Fiona Manning: exposure is too much. And also having threshold kind disregards 42 00:02:22,150 --> 00:02:25,139 Fiona Manning: the absolute impact, so you can have a very large 43 00:02:25,139 --> 00:02:28,850 Fiona Manning: diversified minor that might derive less than 2% of their 44 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:32,889 Fiona Manning: revenue from thermal coal mining. But because they're enormous in 45 00:02:32,889 --> 00:02:35,180 Fiona Manning: absolute terms, they're actually a big player in the market. 46 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,050 Fiona Manning: And it's also, thresholds can be a little bit confusing because 47 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:41,579 Fiona Manning: we are dealing with, I guess, product types. So alcohol, 48 00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:45,750 Fiona Manning: tobacco, pornography, et cetera, then you're dealing with involvement type. 49 00:02:46,010 --> 00:02:49,649 Fiona Manning: Is the company producing, distributing or providing services to these 50 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:52,310 Fiona Manning: industries? And then you're adding on the thresholds. It makes 51 00:02:52,310 --> 00:02:55,240 Fiona Manning: it really hard for investors to compare and find out, 52 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:57,220 Fiona Manning: I guess what they're actually getting exposed to. 53 00:02:57,650 --> 00:03:01,880 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what about the types of areas that people do want to be investing in? 54 00:03:02,169 --> 00:03:04,929 Fiona Manning: Yeah, sure. So on that side, we've largely been guided 55 00:03:04,930 --> 00:03:08,200 Fiona Manning: by consumers and investor need. There's quite a lot of 56 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,100 Fiona Manning: research from the Responsible Investment Association Australasia, which is a 57 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:15,370 Fiona Manning: big mouthful, about what clients want to support and see 58 00:03:15,370 --> 00:03:19,169 Fiona Manning: in their fund. And this really pointed to in aggregate, 59 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,720 Fiona Manning: climate action, avoidance of fossil fuels, but also animal welfare 60 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,370 Fiona Manning: as a single issue seems to pop up. And then 61 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:31,180 Fiona Manning: we've essentially used the United Nations, sustainable development goals, which 62 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:33,389 Fiona Manning: is a framework for how we might achieve peace and 63 00:03:33,389 --> 00:03:36,760 Fiona Manning: prosperity on the planet. And it's a fairly, I guess, well- 64 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:40,080 Fiona Manning: regarded language for talking about positive impact. And then from 65 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,060 Fiona Manning: there, we are focused on where we can actually make 66 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:45,710 Fiona Manning: a difference across a diversified portfolio. And we landed on 67 00:03:45,710 --> 00:03:48,940 Fiona Manning: people, which is good health and wellbeing, and gender equality; 68 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,610 Fiona Manning: and planet, which is all around affordable and clean energy 69 00:03:52,610 --> 00:03:53,580 Fiona Manning: and climate action. 70 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:57,220 Sean Aylmer: Okay. It sounds like a lot of work. If you 71 00:03:57,220 --> 00:03:59,120 Sean Aylmer: want to invest in something like Nestle or one of 72 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,950 Sean Aylmer: those massive food companies, actually working out that they source 73 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:09,590 Sean Aylmer: all their product from sustainable environments and the people that 74 00:04:09,590 --> 00:04:13,290 Sean Aylmer: are used to create the products and that, it must be challenging 75 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:15,279 Sean Aylmer: to actually do what you're trying to do here, Fiona. 76 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,260 Fiona Manning: It definitely is. But fortunately, there's quite a lot of 77 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:22,320 Fiona Manning: third party research provider. It's an increasingly busy space because 78 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,890 Fiona Manning: it is a growth area. You have really sophisticated screening 79 00:04:25,890 --> 00:04:28,540 Fiona Manning: tools. So you can kind of take out some of the leg work 80 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:32,860 Fiona Manning: with those, I guess, quant approaches, looking through their revenue streams. 81 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,940 Fiona Manning: But yeah, you still do need to apply a qualitative 82 00:04:35,940 --> 00:04:39,270 Fiona Manning: assessment when it comes to gray areas, I guess like 83 00:04:39,690 --> 00:04:44,960 Fiona Manning: corporate governance, ethical or not, human rights violations. At what 84 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:48,010 Fiona Manning: point is it intolerable? Is it when there's a verified 85 00:04:48,010 --> 00:04:51,770 Fiona Manning: allegation? Yeah, so there is still, I guess a fair amount of 86 00:04:51,770 --> 00:04:52,940 Fiona Manning: leg work involved as well. 87 00:04:53,510 --> 00:04:56,210 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's say you take a company like Total, 88 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:59,640 Sean Aylmer: which is the big French oil and gas giant. And 89 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,969 Sean Aylmer: I could understand that's screened out, but they're also spending 90 00:05:02,970 --> 00:05:05,060 Sean Aylmer: probably as much money as anyone else trying to get 91 00:05:05,060 --> 00:05:09,710 Sean Aylmer: into renewables or at least change their business model, as 92 00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:12,900 Sean Aylmer: are a bunch of other companies who understand, maybe not 93 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:16,900 Sean Aylmer: the coal producers, but many other companies are trying to 94 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:21,289 Sean Aylmer: transfer their revenue streams from fossil fuels to renewables in 95 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:24,339 Sean Aylmer: that energy space. How do you think about those sorts of organizations 96 00:05:25,010 --> 00:05:29,880 Sean Aylmer: who are actually improving outcomes, but still digging up coal? 97 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,980 Fiona Manning: Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a place for investors who 98 00:05:33,980 --> 00:05:36,200 Fiona Manning: are interested in those, for want of a bit of 99 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,320 Fiona Manning: word, kind of ESG- momentum type stories where they're moving 100 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,400 Fiona Manning: in the right direction, but not quite there now. There 101 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:47,300 Fiona Manning: was more demand, I guess, for funds that had clear- 102 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,270 Fiona Manning: cut thresholds, cause you don't often get the chance to 103 00:05:50,270 --> 00:05:52,820 Fiona Manning: explain those stories. And some of them are really good 104 00:05:52,820 --> 00:05:55,960 Fiona Manning: stories, particularly in Europe. There are a lot of utilities 105 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,419 Fiona Manning: there that still have a significant exposure to fossil fuel- 106 00:05:59,420 --> 00:06:02,500 Fiona Manning: based power generation, but they're also the largest investors in 107 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:05,550 Fiona Manning: renewable energy. And so our stance at the moment at this 108 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:09,080 Fiona Manning: stage is just hard exclusion. We won't have that exposure. 109 00:06:09,620 --> 00:06:12,950 Fiona Manning: But I'm not saying it's necessarily... There is merit in that idea of 110 00:06:13,310 --> 00:06:15,520 Fiona Manning: ESG momentum and catching those that are moving in the 111 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:16,210 Fiona Manning: right direction. 112 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,479 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And then the other thing I just wanted to ask about is whether some 113 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,930 Sean Aylmer: sectors can transition from being good to bad or alternatively 114 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:27,630 Sean Aylmer: bad to good. I may have even been you, Fiona. 115 00:06:27,630 --> 00:06:30,710 Sean Aylmer: We were discussing airports at one point, where airports were 116 00:06:30,710 --> 00:06:34,830 Sean Aylmer: always bad because of noise pollution, but because technology has 117 00:06:34,830 --> 00:06:39,690 Sean Aylmer: improved that so much that some ethical funds now think airports are 118 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,820 Sean Aylmer: okay. That's just an example. Is it easy for sectors 119 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:47,660 Sean Aylmer: or companies to transition one way or the other? 120 00:06:47,660 --> 00:06:52,270 Fiona Manning: I think it depends. It's probably a company- by- company 121 00:06:52,529 --> 00:06:55,130 Fiona Manning: assessment, I would think. I don't think a blanket approach 122 00:06:55,130 --> 00:06:58,250 Fiona Manning: could be applied to, for instance, all miners on how 123 00:06:58,250 --> 00:07:03,310 Fiona Manning: they will handle their transition. For a company that's 100% 124 00:07:03,670 --> 00:07:06,900 Fiona Manning: focused on mining thermal coal, they will obviously find the 125 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:11,230 Fiona Manning: transition to a decarbonized economy a lot more difficult than a 126 00:07:11,230 --> 00:07:15,440 Fiona Manning: diversified miner, which might still be digging up coal, but 127 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,830 Fiona Manning: also copper and other sort of that are going to be 128 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:21,840 Fiona Manning: really critical for that transition. So I'd say not going 129 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,541 Fiona Manning: to dodge the question, but I think it is a company-by-company assessment. 130 00:07:24,541 --> 00:07:27,890 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay with me Fiona. We'll be back in 131 00:07:27,890 --> 00:07:35,870 Sean Aylmer: a minute. My guess this morning is portfolio manager at 132 00:07:35,870 --> 00:07:40,150 Sean Aylmer: Apostle Funds Management, Fiona Manning. So, you've started the fund. 133 00:07:40,150 --> 00:07:43,760 Sean Aylmer: Statewide super has tipped seed investment money into it. Is 134 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:44,360 Sean Aylmer: that correct? 135 00:07:44,610 --> 00:07:45,180 Fiona Manning: That's correct. 136 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:50,580 Sean Aylmer: I mean, super funds really hold so much money in 137 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:55,200 Sean Aylmer: the local market. What's their demand like for ethical investing 138 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,050 Sean Aylmer: and is it growing? 139 00:07:56,670 --> 00:07:58,900 Fiona Manning: Well, if you believe the reports from Rio, which I 140 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:01,880 Fiona Manning: think are really well researched surveys, it does seem to 141 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,690 Fiona Manning: be growing interest in this area. And the appetite for 142 00:08:05,690 --> 00:08:10,500 Fiona Manning: super funds to get into ethical, responsible, sustainable, impactful. All 143 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:14,320 Fiona Manning: of these investing types is definitely led by member demand. 144 00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:17,710 Fiona Manning: I mean, younger generations are typically much more driven by 145 00:08:17,710 --> 00:08:21,980 Fiona Manning: sustainability issues and though their super balances might be small 146 00:08:21,980 --> 00:08:24,580 Fiona Manning: now, they will obviously grow. At the other end of 147 00:08:24,580 --> 00:08:28,610 Fiona Manning: the spectrum, older generations have accumulated more wealth and have 148 00:08:28,610 --> 00:08:32,740 Fiona Manning: large balances. And perhaps their minds are turning towards thoughts 149 00:08:32,740 --> 00:08:35,929 Fiona Manning: of legacy for their children and grandchildren or just future 150 00:08:35,929 --> 00:08:40,330 Fiona Manning: generations more generally. I guess, values based investors aside though, 151 00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:43,790 Fiona Manning: this type of investing should have pretty broad appeal as 152 00:08:43,790 --> 00:08:47,510 Fiona Manning: it really taps into mega trends like decarbonization of the 153 00:08:47,510 --> 00:08:52,140 Fiona Manning: economy, the growing and aging global population, enhanced productivity through 154 00:08:52,140 --> 00:08:54,590 Fiona Manning: greater participation of women in the workforce, and so on. 155 00:08:55,390 --> 00:08:57,969 Sean Aylmer: Is it something that eventually there'll be a premium for 156 00:08:57,970 --> 00:09:00,440 Sean Aylmer: assets that do better at this? 157 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,050 Fiona Manning: Well, there is already talk about, they call it a " 158 00:09:03,270 --> 00:09:05,439 Fiona Manning: greenium" on assets like this. 159 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:06,240 Sean Aylmer: A greenium? Yeah. 160 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,410 Fiona Manning: I know. There you go. 161 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,290 Sean Aylmer: Oh, that's fantastic. I'm going to use that. Greenium. 162 00:09:10,420 --> 00:09:13,130 Fiona Manning: Yeah, and I guess it's a little hard to extract 163 00:09:13,130 --> 00:09:17,349 Fiona Manning: whether there's a perceived greenium or premium for certain types 164 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:21,380 Fiona Manning: of company, because sustainable investors are flooding into them or 165 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:24,050 Fiona Manning: if there's a premium because they tend to be higher 166 00:09:24,050 --> 00:09:29,170 Fiona Manning: quality companies. Sort of ESG assessments and proper management of 167 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:34,270 Fiona Manning: sustainability long term is often very highly correlated to quality 168 00:09:34,270 --> 00:09:36,400 Fiona Manning: of board and how the company's run. 169 00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:39,410 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I mean, the question always comes up in terms 170 00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:44,420 Sean Aylmer: of compromising on returns. In terms of share price, if there's a greenium 171 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:47,750 Sean Aylmer: or if a greenium continues to grow, that's going to 172 00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:50,440 Sean Aylmer: be less of a perceived issue anyway. 173 00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:53,290 Fiona Manning: Yeah. Well, I guess the weight of super funds anyway 174 00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:57,240 Fiona Manning: is forcing super funds to go outside of readily accessible, 175 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,160 Fiona Manning: listed, and liquid markets. Exclusions obviously reduce the opportunity set. 176 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,570 Fiona Manning: But on the flip side, by specifically targeting positive impact, 177 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:09,500 Fiona Manning: it's opening up other avenues for investment that are not 178 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:12,760 Fiona Manning: readily or widely found in liquid markets. So things such 179 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,570 Fiona Manning: as unlisted real estate debt or equity funds that focus 180 00:10:16,570 --> 00:10:21,980 Fiona Manning: on medical officers, student housing, affordable accommodation, fixed income exposure 181 00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:25,470 Fiona Manning: that focuses on green and sustainable bonds, female- led enterprises. 182 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,270 Fiona Manning: So I don't think necessarily it's going to shackle your 183 00:10:28,270 --> 00:10:30,829 Fiona Manning: performance. It does though change your opportunity set. 184 00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:34,140 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I mean that opportunity set then must be huge 185 00:10:34,370 --> 00:10:38,020 Sean Aylmer: in terms of you're looking globally. You need to get 186 00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:42,760 Sean Aylmer: a lot across a lot of assets and also funding 187 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:43,490 Sean Aylmer: types as well. 188 00:10:44,170 --> 00:10:47,750 Fiona Manning: Yes. There's no shortage of opportunities out there. I guess a lot of 189 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:50,080 Fiona Manning: the work is trying to find the good ones that 190 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,260 Fiona Manning: stack up from both a positive real world outcome viewpoint, 191 00:10:54,260 --> 00:10:58,040 Fiona Manning: as well as providing a conventional financial return. 192 00:10:59,050 --> 00:11:02,780 Sean Aylmer: Yes. I mean, I don't know much about some of the debt- 193 00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:07,790 Sean Aylmer: funding products, but it seems to be in certain areas, 194 00:11:07,870 --> 00:11:10,670 Sean Aylmer: they seem to be certainly certainly garnering a lot more attention 195 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,939 Sean Aylmer: at the moment in terms of sustainable investing and the ability 196 00:11:14,940 --> 00:11:19,040 Sean Aylmer: to invest in something which has a genuinely positive outcome 197 00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:21,050 Sean Aylmer: at the end of the day. Or am I making 198 00:11:21,050 --> 00:11:21,410 Sean Aylmer: that up? 199 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,380 Fiona Manning: You can make up whatever you like, it's your podcast. 200 00:11:24,860 --> 00:11:25,270 Sean Aylmer: That's true. 201 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,130 Fiona Manning: But yeah, there's definitely been a lot of growth in 202 00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:33,890 Fiona Manning: debt markets. So in green and sustainable bonds, social enterprise 203 00:11:33,890 --> 00:11:37,630 Fiona Manning: bonds, that has definitely been an area of growth relative 204 00:11:37,630 --> 00:11:41,340 Fiona Manning: to equity markets. I'm not sure why it's gone more 205 00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:44,050 Fiona Manning: in debt, maybe because it's easier to ring fence what 206 00:11:44,050 --> 00:11:46,870 Fiona Manning: funds are being used for, versus sort of, I guess 207 00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:50,359 Fiona Manning: the more general capital structure through listed equity markets. But 208 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,590 Fiona Manning: yeah, not every asset class is, I guess, moving into 209 00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:55,371 Fiona Manning: this area at the same rate. 210 00:11:55,371 --> 00:12:00,730 Sean Aylmer: This has been a great 12 or 13 minutes. I've learned a new word, greenium, and 211 00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:02,309 Sean Aylmer: I've been told I can do whatever I want on 212 00:12:02,309 --> 00:12:04,679 Sean Aylmer: my own podcast. So thank you for coming in talking 213 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:05,480 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. 214 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:07,109 Fiona Manning: Thank you very much for having me. 215 00:12:07,770 --> 00:12:11,500 Sean Aylmer: That was Fiona Manning, portfolio manager at Apostle Funds Management. 216 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,939 Sean Aylmer: This is a Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us 217 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:16,360 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 218 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,280 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.