1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: I get a turnacy you project. Doctor Jody's back in 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: the house. Bloody hell. I get so excited when she comes. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: I can't sleep the night before, tossing and turning, throwing 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: the doner all over the joint. I was up at 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: three pacing just trying to get all my questions ready, 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: trying to clear my mind, trying to be focused, thinking, Fuck, 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: how can I harness the brain power that is doctor Jody, 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: or as I call her, Joctor Dody. And I'm so 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: excited she's here. Hi, Doc, how are you hey? 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: Hello? High Harves, Hi Tiv. I'm excited to be here too. 11 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 2: I love it. I love chatting with you guys. 12 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: Well, we love it when you come along, Tiffany and Cook. 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: Of course, the backbone, the fucking blood that throws flows 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: through the how's my words going this morning? Not that good? 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: The blood that flows through the typ veins? High Cookie, 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: how are you? 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 2: Ah? 18 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: Some? 19 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: Very good? 20 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: Thank you. 21 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: I just put my teeth back in and soldier on. Yeah, 22 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: that's what I do. Fuck it, there's no do overs here, 23 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: there's none of that. Well, I'm looking out the window. 24 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: It's nine point forty four on Wednesday morning. On twenty 25 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: sixth in November and it's pouring in Melbourne. It's like, 26 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: I feel like I may have to build myself an 27 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: arc out of the bamboo in my yard at some 28 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: stage if it continues that it's current, right, that bitch 29 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: is torrential. Is it raining where you are? Tip? 30 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it just started. When we hopped on the podcast, 31 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: I was like, Oh my god, what's happening. 32 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: It's very loud at my hair. 33 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 3: I have a loud roof when it rains. 34 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: What about in your penthouse in Tuac, doctor Jody? Is 35 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: it raining there? 36 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: I wish? Yeah, it's raining. It is raining here. It 37 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: sure is. 38 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: Oh well, I bet everyone's just fucking enthralled with this conversation. Wow, 39 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: this is why I tuned in. 40 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: Can I say I want to I want to say 41 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: something that I was reading something not so long ago, 42 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: because you know how when people you sort of talk 43 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: to people and they might say, how's the weather or 44 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: it's been you know, it's a good days, isn't it, 45 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: And that a lot of people will kind of like 46 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: feel like, oh no, not the weather conversation, but that 47 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: it's a it's a bid for connection that when when 48 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 2: somebody kind of like says that they're not quite sure 49 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: what else to say, and they're trying to connect with you, 50 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: And so now I lean into these conversations about the weather. 51 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: If someone raises that when they're chatting to me, I'm like, yes, 52 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: I know, like and I'll just dive right in and 53 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: then usually the conversation moves away reasonably quickly. But I 54 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 2: thought it was a nice way to think about it. 55 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: It's a nice little eyes breaker. It's a nice little 56 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: kind of opening of the conversational door, isn't it. 57 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And look what we've done today. We've done it. 58 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: We've done it ourselves. 59 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: Yes, and the four people that are still listening are 60 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: fucking just deriveted. So I want to we haven't actually 61 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: done this for a while. I want to talk a 62 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: little bit about anxiety. And I know we've in the past, 63 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: we've had quite a few chats, but I feel like 64 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: it's probably been the best part of a year where 65 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: we've had we've done an episode on this. And the 66 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: reason for this is we yesterday did a gig in 67 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: the city with Aria, the Aria Group, and I spoke 68 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: to two people come up and came up and spoke 69 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: to me afterwards, one specifically about mental health, including anxiety, 70 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: another one about depression and anxiety. Really good conversations and 71 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: really good questions, and it seems to be there's been 72 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: just without opening the door too wide, there's just been 73 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going on Planet Craig and a 74 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: lot of people's planets lately. But the intersecting of my 75 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: life with many other lives that are going through some 76 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: really hard shit, and in the middle of all of that, 77 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: obviously is overwhelm and you know that cognitive overload and 78 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: anxiety and just that what can be that internal mayhem? 79 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you a few things about 80 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: this and just to maybe get a little bit of 81 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: clarity around around because I feel like, firstly about how 82 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: to navigate anxiety, but I think like anxiety is not 83 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: the same experience for everybody. Am I right? So it's 84 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: probably in the same postcode, But what I interpret as 85 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: anxiety might be a different psychological, emotional, and physiological experience 86 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: to what somebody else interprets. Am I correct? 87 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: Look, it's like, well, when I say something's red and 88 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: you say something's red, are we both saying the same 89 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: thing when it comes to the experience of anxiety? It, 90 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: I mean we know it's an emotion, and we know 91 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: that for it to be anxiety, it has to tick 92 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: certain boxes. But our experience of anxiety can be very, 93 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: very different. Like one person can just be out of 94 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: their head with worry and rumination and just spiraling and 95 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: spinning and can't focus, can't concentrate. Somebody else might just 96 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: feel sick to the stomach and you know, just or 97 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: it could be tension, headaches, the symptoms are so there 98 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: are so many symptoms that your experience, my experience, to 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: his experience, listeners experience can be different. But for it 100 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: to be anxiety and not something else, you know, it 101 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: has to tick certain boxes. Like there's activation of the 102 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 2: stress response, there's you know, the fight or flight response 103 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 2: is activated, and it's because of the anticipation of a threat, 104 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: not that you're facing a threat in that very moment. 105 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: And so yeah, so that's a there, there you go. 106 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: That's my answer to the question. Hope that clear. 107 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: I would I don't want to be I don't want 108 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: to be contentious, but fuck it, live on the edge, jumbo, 109 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: come on, be all you can be grasshopper, jump out 110 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: of the nest and fly your little fat fuck all right, 111 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: So I feel like anxiety is not an emotion. I 112 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: feel like anxiety is a response to emotion. 113 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: Really, it is an emotion. Anxiety is an emotion. 114 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: Why is it an emotion because we feel isn't isn't anxiety? 115 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: But isn't that a physiological response anxiety to to, Like, 116 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: fear is an emotion, and might anxiety be the physiological 117 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: response to that emotion? 118 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: Well, tell me about fear. Is if fear is an emotion, 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: what happens when we're fearful? 120 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: Then it creates an anxiety response. 121 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: Well okay, so but when if you're fearful, what are 122 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: you feeling? 123 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: Well, you're scared of something. But that's the emotional state. 124 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: But I feel like anxiety is the physical part of 125 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: the emotion. 126 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: No, I'm just done. Yeah. So with anxiety, there are 127 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: multiple parts to it. There's the physiological arousal we know 128 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: about that. There are all the sensations that come with that, 129 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: the you know, the numbness, tingling, dizziness, feeling sick, headaches, worry, 130 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: all that. Then we've got the behaviors that can come 131 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: with that, which is avoidance. We've got the emotions that 132 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: accompany it, like the big feelings that come with it, 133 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: which is tyrannous, aggression, maybe agitation, irritability, that sort of thing, 134 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: and then there's all the thinking that comes with it 135 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: as well. But anxiety, I take your point. I take 136 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: your point because it's like the weather, it's got lots 137 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: of things that contribute to it. Anxiety is the same, 138 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: but it is considered an emotion. It is a feeling. 139 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: We feel anxious, but there's a lot of there's a 140 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: lot of other things that are going on at the 141 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: same time. 142 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: You don't buy it, nah, I don't think it's an emotion, Chatters, 143 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: I feel like yes and no. So I asked Chatters 144 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: before we came on as well, just to see, and 145 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: then I looked up the dictionary and it says anxiety 146 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: as your body's threat alarm, going off when sometimes there's 147 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: no real threat. Like to me, that's talking about your physiology. 148 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: But I think the answer is it's both. I think 149 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: it's I think can read what's in front of you. 150 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: Tip short answer, yes, So I said, is anxiety and emotion? 151 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: Short answer yes, but also no. Anxiety is an emotion, 152 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: but it's also a physiological alarm system that likes to 153 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 3: go off even when there's no fire. Think of it 154 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: as fears, caffeine addicted, cousin, jittery, over prepared, and always 155 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: convinced something is something ominous is lurking just off stage. 156 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Our best outcome ever, we're both right, which is really 157 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: good because we've both got fucking heaps of issues. 158 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Well done, team. 159 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Jodie, do you think that, Like, I know 160 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: that a big part of your philosophy, which I agree with, thankfully, 161 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: is being able to coexist with our insecurity without anxiety, 162 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: knowing that it's probably for a lot of us, we're 163 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: probably never going to have a life with zero anxiety, 164 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: myself included. Should should that be our primary goal to 165 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: learn to live with it? Or should we try to 166 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: turn down the volume of it? Like is there any 167 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: is there any thinking around overcoming it? Or commentering? 168 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, look absolutely and yes yes is the answer to 169 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: all of those questions that learning to live with it is, 170 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: I'll start there, is that when we fight with anxiety, 171 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: it's really important to know this. When you fight with it, 172 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: you struggle with it. You do everything you can not 173 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: to feel it, not to experience it. You make it worse, 174 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: you make it worse, but you know it is. It's 175 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: pretty like this is a simple idea but not easy 176 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: to do. A bit like meditation is that when you 177 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: turn and face it and you welcome it as if 178 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: you wanted it now, people will be going, oh, you're joking. 179 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: It's like, well, you know, I'm not saying that if 180 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: we could click our fingers and wave a wand we 181 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't rid ourselves of it, although it's very protective and 182 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: it serves us well in lots of ways. But if 183 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: we can see it for what it is and have 184 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: this understanding that it's like this alarm in our brain 185 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: that's going off, you know, when there's there's no reason 186 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: to be, you know, concern for our safety. It's just 187 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: a trigger happy kind of system that we can we 188 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: can train to respond differently. We absolutely can. So can 189 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: we dial it down? Yes, something that people can overcome. Yes, 190 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: it is treatable. And you know, some people might have 191 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: anxiety at a stage in their lives and really experience 192 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: anxiety that's debilitating. Everybody experiences normal anxiety, but with you know, 193 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: depending on the type of therapeutic approach that they you know, 194 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: that they take on or that they follow, you can 195 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: move through it, move past it, and then it's no 196 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 2: longer a significant kind of challenge. That said, there are 197 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: people like my mum who has done everything you could 198 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: possibly do, and it's just anxiety is just always going 199 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: to be a significant part of her life, but one 200 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: that I work with her to support her to make 201 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: sure it doesn't. It's not sort of like a big 202 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: stop sign that stops you from living. So yeah, like. 203 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: I wonder if you know, with some things like if 204 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: you've got a nut allergy one. Now, I'm no specialist 205 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: in this space. Probably surprised that I'm not a specialist 206 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: in this but you know how sometimes they'll give you 207 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: like a fucking a gram a microgram of a nut, 208 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: and then they'll give you two micrograms of a nut, 209 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: and then over time they build you up to now 210 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: where your body is adapted and it can eat nuts. 211 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: So the thing that used to create a really bad 212 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: physiological outcome, now it doesn't right because your body is adapted. 213 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: And you know, like and I guess another one is 214 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,479 Speaker 1: with like a rachnophobia, people who are scared of spiders. 215 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: One of the things that they do, not everybody, but 216 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: one of the approaches is like to start people by 217 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: looking at a photo of a tiny, little, teeny fucking 218 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: spider a photo and they do it from ten feet away, 219 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: and then they do it from five feet away, and 220 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: then they hold the photo and then eventually, you know 221 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Then eventually they've got a fucking you know, 222 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: a tarantula or on their face and they're loving it, 223 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: you know. So, so that response has been reprogrammed over time. 224 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if, like, if we identify the thing that 225 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: causes anxiety or triggers anxiety, do you think there's a 226 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: Is it feasible that we put ourselves through a form 227 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: of exposure therapy and go, what's the thing that gives 228 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: me anxiety or scares me and just doing a form 229 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: of what I just described with the peanuts and the like. 230 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: Is that possible where you go, well, this scares the 231 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: shit out of me, but I'm just going to put 232 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: my little toe in the water and then jump back. 233 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: Is that a thing? 234 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: It is a thing, But you've got to be really 235 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: motivated to want to do that. Like a lot of 236 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: people would say, well, I'm scared of spiders. I don't 237 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: cared to be anything else. I mean, again, wave the 238 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 2: one yes, But do I want to put myself through that, 239 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: and you've got to ask yourself, like what's motivating you 240 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: and what's moving you so that you could make that 241 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: commitment to doing it despite the anxiety that you're going 242 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: to experience. But one hundred percent I did it with 243 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: my podcast. I was so I was just so overwhelmed 244 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: with anxiety and every bone in my body said, don't 245 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: do it. But I really wanted to because I really 246 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: wanted to help in COVID, help people, you know, support 247 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: them and you know, be there and do something and 248 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: give back in a way that I thought would be helpful. 249 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: So I was really motivated, and so I did that first. 250 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: There was a lot of procrastinating, but I did that 251 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: first episode and then I did the second one. When 252 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: I was first a guest for you, I was so anxious, 253 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And now I'm excited. I look forward 254 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: to it because you learn through the exposure and look, obviously, 255 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: being on a podcast like this, there's no dipping the 256 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: toe in is there. It's like it's all in. It's 257 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: like you're having a food combo or you're not doing it. Yeah, 258 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: but you can do that. 259 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I mean that's the beauty though. Like, imagine 260 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: if every guest that I have on like you and 261 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: I are friends. I love you, I think you're amazing, 262 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: You're great at what you do, which is why gratefully, 263 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you keep coming back. But if 264 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: every time you have any opinion, I go, I agree, Well, 265 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: then we're not having a real conversation. Yeah right. It's 266 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: like you go X, I go, maybe Jody, but maybe 267 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: why and you go, well, maybe harps, but maybe fucking not. 268 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: And I go, all right, well, let's let's unpack that. 269 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: I mean this for me, this is the point. Part 270 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: of the point of podcasting, especially what we do, is 271 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: to have an actual conversation that could even be a 272 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: bit fucking lumpy and bumpy, Like we're not trying to 273 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: produce a Disney podcast where you know, we all live 274 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: happily ever after. We're actually trying to do some digging 275 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: and figure out what's fucking going on. And there's no 276 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: necessity for you and I to agree on everything. But 277 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: what is interesting is when we did unpack the is 278 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: it an emotion? Is it not an emotion? You go, oh, 279 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of both, And it's like that's a good 280 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: question to ask, But like for me, one of the 281 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: things is I think, because I feel like when we 282 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: go so, you're probably going to have anxiety forever, or 283 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: a form of anxiety forever, which I think for most 284 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: people is true. I think there's always going to be 285 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: something to be anxious about. And also this is purely anecdotal, 286 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: but my experience is for many people as they get 287 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: older and I mean older older, like posts seventy seventy 288 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: five eighty, anxiety can really start to ramp up. God 289 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: bless my mum, but my mum could. If there's nothing 290 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: to worry about, Mary will find twelve things right, and 291 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: you just I understand that. But I think like realizing 292 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: that I'm always going to have fear, and I'm always 293 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: going to have some fear of something and some anxiety 294 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: about something, and I'm probably always going to self sabotage 295 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: a bit, and I'm probably always going to overthink a bit, 296 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: and probably there will be that will be a component 297 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: of the Craig experience forever. But having said that, I 298 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: don't want that to get in the way of my possibilities. 299 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: I don't want that to be the force or the 300 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: influence that controls my choices and my behaviors like I 301 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: want to be brave anyway, I want to be adventurous anyway, 302 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: I want to get uncomfortable anyway. And I feel like 303 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: this exposure therapy of doing the thing that scares me 304 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: in an intelligent, strategic way, not a reckless way. Well, 305 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: what's scared you, Craig? That might be worth opening the 306 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: door on. And for you it was like, well, Jody, 307 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: are you scared of Like, is there fear around doing 308 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: your first podcast? Yes? And so why Well, that's because 309 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,239 Speaker 1: your desire to do a podcast and help people and 310 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: probably you know, build skill and understanding in this space 311 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 1: called podcasting, and that probably overrode the fear. Doesn't mean 312 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: you weren't scared. It just means you were courageous and scared. 313 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? 314 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I had a guest once who was talking 315 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: about a parent that had the like a two kilometer 316 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: radius from their house. They kind of didn't that was 317 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: kind of like this imaginary line they couldn't go past. 318 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 2: And my guest said to this patient of theirs, but 319 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: what if one of your kids was in trouble and 320 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 2: they were two and a half kilometers from home? What 321 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 2: would you do? And the dad was like I would 322 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: be straight there in a beeline in a heartbeat. And 323 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: it's so it's kind of like, well, how how important 324 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: is it? And you know, if somebody's got a fear 325 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: of a fear of dogs, it's pretty it's you know, 326 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 2: like dogs are everywhere, like you know, you you might 327 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 2: not want to overcome it, but it probably would be 328 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: a really helpful thing to do. If someone's got a 329 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: fear of chickens, you can probably go through life not 330 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: really being exposed to chickens. 331 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: Chickens chicken so random, it's a thing. 332 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 2: I know someone who is really frightened when they come 333 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 2: around here, and our chickens have to be in the pen. 334 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: So there's there's some things that you're. 335 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, tell you what, who needs to be frightened 336 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: when I come around the fucking chickens because I love chicken. 337 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: Those chickens better when I come over, those little motherfuckers 338 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: better hide. 339 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 2: I'll let them know. I'll let them know. But yeah, 340 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: but then, but you know, it's about what is important 341 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: to you and you only only we can work that out, 342 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: and and yeah, you're right, you're right. Helps we can 343 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: do it for ourselves. Some people do this with the 344 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: support of a psychologist somebody to sort of support them 345 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: and guide them and you know, help them kind of 346 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: take those steps forward. 347 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: Do you think that, And again, this is just an 348 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: opinion everyone, This is not data or evidence or research. 349 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: But do you think that for some people, doing stuff 350 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: is a better way of overcoming anxiety than talking about 351 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: stuff without a. 352 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: Doubt because you've got to get the experience of it. 353 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: You've got to teach your brain that this is safe. 354 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: And so that's only through experience you can know. You 355 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: can absolutely know that if there's a spider on the 356 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: opposite side of the room to you, that you are 357 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 2: not in danger of being bitten by that spider one. 358 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: But it's only but you can know. We can know 359 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: something intellectually, but it's the experience of it that we 360 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: need to teach our brain that hate isn't dangerous. And 361 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: that's why all the things that we've all done that 362 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: have been terrifying, like speaking on stage, we all stand 363 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: in front of hundreds of people with a microphone in 364 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 2: our hands. Yeah, experience teaches you that it's a safe 365 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 2: place and so yeah, you have to do it. 366 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: And how often is that true in all areas of life? 367 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: Where it's you might know all the theory of how 368 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: to create an outcome. You know, you might you might 369 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: own a gym, you might be an exercise physiologist. I'm 370 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: talking about myself. You might. You might know how to eat, 371 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: how to train, how to lift, how to recover, how 372 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: to sleep, how to optimize your own genetics. And at 373 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: the same time, you're eating shit when no one's looking right, 374 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: and you're telling people essentially lies because you're teaching them 375 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: to do the things that you're not doing. I mean 376 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: that was literally part of my story for a while, 377 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: where I was a guy who owned a gym, and 378 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: I was one hundred and seventeen k so like right 379 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: now this morning, well I haven't weighed myself, but I'm 380 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: give to take eighty kilos. So I was essentially a 381 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: fat guy who owned a gym who was telling people 382 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: to do shit I wasn't doing. I understood the theory, 383 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: I knew what to do, I knew why to do it, 384 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: I knew how it worked. I just wasn't fucking doing it. 385 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: Or a range of you know, a range of reasons 386 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: that we could but we won't go into on this show. 387 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: But it's only when you start to operationalize or put 388 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: into practice the things that you know that work, where 389 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: you own up and step up. You know, in my 390 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: case where I went, yeah, I'm full of shit everyone, 391 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: I've got a fucking food issue, and so I'm going 392 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: to do better. You know, it's like, and it might 393 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: be you know not that's not an anxiety thing, but 394 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: it's still a mental hurdle that I needed to navigate. 395 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, when I started to 396 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: literally do different things. You know, when you it's like 397 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: when you started to do the podcast right now you're 398 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: a million podcasts in your fear response has gone, your 399 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: anxiety responses, sorry, your excitement responses taken over. You know, 400 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: you're the same person with the same potential, but now 401 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: you're having a different experience doing the same thing because 402 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: you were brave. 403 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: And that and that's that's a part of it. Like there, 404 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: courage is a really big part of it, because it's 405 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: it's not the easy road, is it. It's not the 406 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: easy road to do something new, or meet new people 407 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: or try a new skill or it's it's not easy, 408 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: and so that's why you've got to really want it. 409 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: You know, when somebody else is trying to tell somebody 410 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 2: to do something, because I think it would be a 411 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: good idea. If we're doing something because someone else wants 412 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: us to, you know, we it, it tends not to 413 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 2: work out so well, it's got to come from us. 414 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: But one of the things that I wanted to mention 415 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: was that VR virtual reality can be used to help 416 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 2: people in the these challenges of overcoming fears like of 417 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: heights or flying and things like that, and just speaking 418 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 2: to the point of we can know something intellectually, but 419 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: the experience is different. Like if you've ever put on 420 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 2: VR goggles and tried to tell yourself, I know I'm 421 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: standing on the floor, but you really feel like you're 422 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: standing on the edge of a fifteenth story building. Your 423 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: body responds to the fact that it believes you're at 424 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: that height, so it's yeah, it's really it's really interesting 425 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: that VR can A lot of psychologists are using VR 426 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: to help people move through and overcome challenges, to help 427 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 2: them live a better life, a richer life, you know, 428 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: and do that. 429 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's back to that. You're exactly right, 430 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: and it's like your brain doesn't know the difference between 431 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: perception and reality and pursuant to that where I'm just 432 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: stumbling towards finish line and my PhD, which is Monash University. 433 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: Shout out to Monash thanks for putting up with me. 434 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: I don't know you do, but fuck I love you. Specifically, 435 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: Brain Park, which is the neuroscience Psychology, Neuropsychology neuroscience Lab, 436 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: they've been doing lots of research using VR with people 437 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: who are problem gamblers or have gambling issues, addictive issues 438 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: around gambling. And yeah, so they put them in a casino. 439 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: So they put on these VR goggles and they go 440 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: into a casino with money or a gambling environment, and yeah, 441 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: they use that and it's yeah because and people know, 442 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: but within a short period of time they get for 443 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: one of a better term. They get lost in the 444 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: experience and all the normal things that happen in their 445 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: brain when they actually gamble now start to happen when 446 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: they're in this simulation, and that, Yeah, it's amazing that 447 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: we can that we can create really experiences, you know, subjective, 448 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: real experiences when objectively there's nothing going on exactly, No, 449 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: you're actually not spending any money, you're not actually in 450 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: a casino. There are no cards, there is no rulette, 451 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: there is no poker there is you know, there's no 452 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: there's no sticky carpets and no beers, like, no, you're 453 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: actually in a lab with glasses or with these complicated, 454 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: complex expensive you know, headset on your face. But yeah, 455 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: and I guess that's the same with to an extent 456 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,239 Speaker 1: meditation and visualization and of course dreaming is that you know, 457 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: when we're in you know, when you're in a dream 458 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: and you're you're in it's in the middle of the 459 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: night and you are in that dream or your emotional 460 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: system and your nervous system and everything's in the dream 461 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: with you. So as an experience for the sleeper, it's real. Yeah, 462 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: like you're not in the middle of a dream. Generally, 463 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: I think when people go, oh, I know and I'm 464 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: in the middle of a dream, or you're not really dreaming, 465 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: because when you're fucking down the rabbit hole in a dream, 466 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: there's no thought, oh, this is a dream. It's like, no, 467 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: this is real. I am actually being chased down a 468 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: dark alley by bad people with you know, with bad intentions. 469 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: You know. So yeahest interesting to see what happens with that. 470 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: Moving forward with the treatment of fears and phobias, and 471 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: that that ar VR kind of virtual world stuff. 472 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: And you're right to sort of point that out because 473 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: with anxiety, there's there's I mean, there's social anxiety, separation anxiety, 474 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: there's fears and phobias and generalized anxiety and so yeah, 475 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: but if yeah, there's really good treatments and there's really 476 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: good support. You know, anxiety is treatable and so yeah, 477 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: so it's yeah, but the VR, like I I felt 478 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: sick when I tried it because we had one that 479 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: a friend brought around. It was a role coaster and 480 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: it was hilarious to watch people with it on. But yeah, 481 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 2: past for me. Thanks. 482 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: What are the I don't know if you know this 483 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: off the top of your head. I don't know in 484 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: terms of the research, but your research, so the doctor 485 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: Jodi University, Lad, what are the top three things that 486 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: seem to be common denominators or sources of anxiety for people? Like? 487 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: What what is the common like what makes the majority 488 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: of people anxious? Is there one single thing? Like is 489 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: it being hurt it's like being physically hurt or in 490 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: that is that number one? Or is it being isolated 491 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: and loved unloved and you know, disconnected from emotional support 492 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: or what is it? 493 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it can it can be all of those things. 494 00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: There are a lot of contributors to anxiety and when 495 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: when you know, when we're so different in the way 496 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: we experience it, but we're so different because of why 497 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: we experience it. And so you know, if you if 498 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: you grew up, for example, in a household where there 499 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: was maybe a parent with a substance abuse problem and 500 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: you just kind of had to make sure that you 501 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: tiptoed around, walk on each shells and not kind of 502 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: you know, cause any sorts of reactions, then you become 503 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: hyper vigilant. You become very very aware of the potential 504 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: threat that could be being screened at, or being kicked outside, 505 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: or being hurt. And so our experiences can absolutely shape 506 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: how anxiety sort of shows up for us. And why 507 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: there's a genetic component as well. Thirty five to fifty 508 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: percent of anxiety, you know, is genetic, and so that 509 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: that's certainly a consideration. And temperament as well. You know, 510 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: little kiddos who are quite shy, like you can there's 511 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: a I can't remember it, halts. I used to know 512 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 2: there was two things about temperament for young children, like 513 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: KINDI age that would be possibly an indicator that anxiety 514 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: could be you know, a challenge for them. And so yeah, 515 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: there's there's lots of things that you know, like even 516 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: just gosh, watching the news, because you know, we can 517 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: watch the news and as adults we might we will 518 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: know that there is a war and it's a long 519 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: way away for a young person who sees that. Like 520 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: I know of a student in grade six who had 521 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: such severe anxiety. Every time there was a thunder, rumble 522 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: or a plane that she heard, she thought it was 523 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: a bomb being dropped because she didn't understand the distance 524 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: that the war was away from where she lived. Right, 525 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: So there's so many contributors. 526 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: I reckon this is Craig Harper theory. Let me run 527 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: this by you and tell me what you think. So 528 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: I think there's people are scared of unknown, uncertain uncomfortable, 529 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: and unfamiliar. I feel like I call it all the uns. 530 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: I go, it's all the uns. It's the uncertainty, it's 531 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: the unknown, it's the uncomfortable, it's the unfamiliar. We like certainty, 532 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: we like predictability, we like comfort, we like familiarity, we 533 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: like knowing what's coming next, and it's in that space 534 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: of fuck, I don't know what's coming next, and I 535 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: can't control what's coming next. Well I might put that 536 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: on my list uncontrolled. Yeah, good one, harps, good work. 537 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: You can weave that into something. But do you know 538 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: what I mean? It's like? Is that what like in 539 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: the absence of certainty and predictability and familiarity, which is 540 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: where most of us are anxious. 541 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. It's it's I don't know 542 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: what's coming and because of that, I I don't know 543 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: whether or not it's safe. And that could be you know, 544 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: obviously going going to you know, we get anxious about 545 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: the things that we care about as well. Like you 546 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: you're doing a speech at a friend's wedding, you're going 547 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: to be anxious because you know, you've got uncertainty. But 548 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: you've planned and you've got your script and you know 549 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: what you want to say and you're in a trusted space. 550 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: But you know, so, Yes, uncertainty is a huge contributor 551 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: and that's that. But intellectually we can we can know 552 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: that the lay of the land is safe and that 553 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: we can mostly predict what will happen. Some people have 554 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: you know, the amigdala in their brain is just much more. 555 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: It's bigger and more sensitive to threat. And that can 556 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 2: be because of all of the things I mentioned before. 557 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 2: And in that case, yes, uncertainty will be like a 558 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: trigger for it because you don't know what's coming. The 559 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: brain's might be dangerous, and then the brain will say, 560 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: let's not do it, and that conspiral. 561 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: I put up a post the other day which was 562 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: comparing an academic and a regular human talking about this, 563 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: and the academic said something like, my migdala just hijacked 564 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: my prefrontal cortex, right, And the bloke said, I can't 565 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: fucking think when I'm emotional, right, yeah, right, And it's true. 566 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: It's like when we are emotional, like our cognitive capacity 567 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: diminishes drastically. It's like, and so that's one of the 568 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: biggest challenges I know. You know Paul Taylor with his 569 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: research on hardiness. I think his book's called The Hardiness Effect, 570 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, and we're talking about and it's in the 571 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: wheelhouse of resilience and mental toughness and they all kind 572 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: of intersect and relate. But yeah, being able to you know, 573 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: because life is pressure, life is beautiful and amazing. But 574 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: also there are times where life is pressure, life is uncomfortable, 575 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: life is fucking unfair. Just take a look, turn on 576 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: the news, just travel to another country. It's like, yeah, 577 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: life's not fair. Life's just life. And so our capacity 578 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: to be able to deal with, you know, hard things 579 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: kind of plays a big influence or plays a big 580 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: role in the quality of our life. Because if if 581 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: our default setting is everything needs to be comfortable, I 582 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: can good luck trying to have any quality of life, you. 583 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: Know, and it just creates more problems. 584 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: I remember also specific to your you know, when you 585 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: get up on a stage and speak and you start, 586 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: you're nervous. Then six months later you're less nervous and 587 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: all that. So last year when I did my final 588 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: what's called academic review for my research, so as you know, 589 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: because you did it, but and as you know, because 590 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: you're on panel, right, you like, the day before or 591 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: two days before, I did a gig with five hundred people, 592 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: and my emotional state going in was just excitement and 593 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: I had to talk to five hundred people, had to 594 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 1: talk for an hour without you know, an hour, no gaps, 595 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: no fuck ups, you know, tell stories, be funny, be engaging, 596 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: share great insights, build rapport, read the room, do all 597 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: of that shit that you do, like be funny, you know, 598 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: don't be a dickhead and leave them wanting more. So 599 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: when you go, they all go, fuck, that was great. 600 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: I wish we could hear him again or something like that. Right, 601 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: and great experience. And then and then a couple of 602 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: days later, you and all the professors and boffins from Monash, 603 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: you know, we're in my final review and so there's 604 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what there is a total of six people. 605 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 1: And I was so fucking terrified. Yeah, I was so nervous. 606 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: I was so fucking inarticulate, and I'm like, oh wow, 607 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 1: this is me talking to people yet in this context, 608 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: I'm fucking terrified. 609 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 610 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: Like two days before, five hundred people for an hour 611 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: anxiety zero. Yeah, this day I think I had my 612 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: presentation was twenty minutes, you know, six people or whatever. 613 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: It was four or five anxiety thirteen out of ten. 614 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh wow, oh wow. And it's like, well, 615 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's just where, oh well, why is that, well, Craig, 616 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: because you don't think you're very good at this, and 617 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: by the way, you're compared to the other thing. You're 618 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,959 Speaker 1: not very good at this, and you're like in this room. 619 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: You know, you go to some rooms you're the smart one. 620 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: You go to some rooms you're a fucking idiot. 621 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: You know. 622 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: In some rooms I go, I'm in fucking great shape. 623 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: In other rooms, I'm just the old, skinny dude in 624 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: the corner. It's embarrassed. 625 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 2: It's actually got thing to be in the room with 626 00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 2: people smarter than us. That's a good thing. 627 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: But that's the room I want to be in. That's 628 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: the room we should all want to be in, I think, 629 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, or at least sometimes be in that room probably, 630 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, if your self esteems you know, like just 631 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: go to the room of dummies for ten minutes and 632 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: just pop up, you know, go to the fuck we room. 633 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: And then what if you go to the fuck we 634 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: room and you're the dumbest. 635 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 2: Oh, you're not feeling too good about yourself. 636 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, It's always good to chat with you, doctor Jodie. 637 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: Tell people how to you know, do all the stuff, 638 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: find you, follow you, connect with you your cards, your 639 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: new brilliant cards, tell them about them, tell them about 640 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: your books. And of course your podcast is called well Hello, anxiety, 641 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: which you partner with light FM or the Light? Do 642 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: we call it the light now? 643 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 2: Ah? Yeah, yeah, it is the. 644 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: Light eighty nine nine point nine the Light. 645 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: That's it. That's it. I love chatting with you guys, honestly. 646 00:37:59,440 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: No. 647 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 2: Look, yes, the cards, the cards seventy card deck, the 648 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: anxiety toolkits designed for parents, but so many psychology practices 649 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: and educators, school counselors are loving it. So it's yeah, 650 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: I'm really really proud of that. So you can just 651 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 2: jump on my website and follow me on socials at 652 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 2: Dr Jodi Richardson dot com Jody with an Eye. 653 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: And where can they get your books or where can 654 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: they learn about your books? 655 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: Everything's on everything's on the website. 656 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, could work. And Tiff, when's your book coming out? Tiff? 657 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: Is that well underway? 658 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: Twenty thirty two, twenty seventy two. 659 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. That's going to be biblical, that's 660 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: going to be wow. Wow. Just stand back world wait 661 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: for that. I wonder I wonder if in twenty twenty 662 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: two there'll be paper in the world. I wonder if 663 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: there'll be I wonder if they'll be physical. What do 664 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: I say? 665 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two. 666 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: That's been good, twenty thirty two. I wonder if there'll 667 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: be physical books, so I wonder if everything will be virtual. 668 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: I wonder if there'll be money. Do you think there'll 669 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: be dollars? Do you think there'll be physical money. 670 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,479 Speaker 3: I'm the last man standing that's still circulating cash, try, 671 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 3: and I'm trying to keep it in the economy. 672 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Hey, Jodi tiv thank you, Thanks audience, Thanks groovers, 673 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: thank you guys.