WEBVTT - “I turned my pain into power”: Nicole Meyer Pt.2

0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880
<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life, the average person has never

0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119
<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040
<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200
<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560
<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400
<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760
<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640
<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640
<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.800
<v Speaker 1>In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we

0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.720
<v Speaker 1>spoke about the personal impact on her and the two

0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.360
<v Speaker 1>sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa,

0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.480
<v Speaker 1>and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her

0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.640
<v Speaker 1>and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down

0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.880
<v Speaker 1>her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her

0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.919
<v Speaker 1>experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.

0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.440
<v Speaker 1>As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have,

0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.000
<v Speaker 1>but it's one I think is important to talk about.

0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.839
<v Speaker 1>Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill. It's part two.

0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. I'm still just processing all that you told

0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.640
<v Speaker 1>us in part one and the battles that you had

0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.000
<v Speaker 1>to go through and your determination to get a person

0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.480
<v Speaker 1>just to be put before the courts. So we're talking

0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.200
<v Speaker 1>about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you

0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.720
<v Speaker 1>were attending as a student, and then your battle. So

0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:45.160
<v Speaker 1>I think something like seventy five court appearances to get

0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.560
<v Speaker 1>the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.

0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.080
<v Speaker 1>I want to take it to that point in time now.

0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.280
<v Speaker 1>So once you were notified about the extradition, I would

0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.400
<v Speaker 1>imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you

0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.000
<v Speaker 1>supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step

0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.080
<v Speaker 1>in the right direction. But again that's just the start

0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.640
<v Speaker 1>of the efforts to get justice. What happened after you

0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:10.160
<v Speaker 1>were informed about the extradition.

0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they

0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.960
<v Speaker 2>did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.

0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.520
<v Speaker 2>They can't give us an exact approximation of when and

0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:22.919
<v Speaker 2>not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's

0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.760
<v Speaker 2>on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't

0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.160
<v Speaker 2>even know when she's in the sky. Like that was

0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.320
<v Speaker 2>really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.

0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.320
<v Speaker 2>It was I don't think anything major happened there made

0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.960
<v Speaker 2>it been a couple mentions. The main thing that had

0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.760
<v Speaker 2>to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper

0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.040
<v Speaker 2>signed for extradition by the Justice minister. It had to

0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.000
<v Speaker 2>happen now, that in itself is a process. And all

0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:48.639
<v Speaker 2>we heard, and I'm going to go to the day

0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that she arrived, all we heard was that it was

0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.720
<v Speaker 2>a foot race literally because the skies were closing because

0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.360
<v Speaker 2>of COVID ah right, and they had to get the

0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.480
<v Speaker 2>paper signed and get her on that plane out of

0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming

0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.240
<v Speaker 2>to Australia from Israel. Pasted her flight. It was nothing

0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.520
<v Speaker 2>short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane

0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.400
<v Speaker 2>and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it,

0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.560
<v Speaker 2>and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were

0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.840
<v Speaker 2>not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her

0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.600
<v Speaker 2>up and they put her on the plane bought her

0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.920
<v Speaker 2>to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you

0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.320
<v Speaker 2>are arrested on Australian soil. Was like the moment to

0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.320
<v Speaker 2>say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.

0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.119
<v Speaker 2>And all I remember of the night that she came

0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.120
<v Speaker 2>back is because of that leaked photo from some random

0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.000
<v Speaker 2>person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's

0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.120
<v Speaker 2>on the plane. And then it was all the detectives,

0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the experts online trying to find which flight,

0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.480
<v Speaker 2>and then it was all the news in the airport,

0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.000
<v Speaker 2>but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport,

0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:49.520
<v Speaker 2>and the reporters said all their masks on and they

0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.480
<v Speaker 2>were standing by the window, and we had one very

0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.920
<v Speaker 2>kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was

0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>a big part of our journey and she held her

0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:57.520
<v Speaker 2>phone to the wall of the.

0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:00.760
<v Speaker 1>Very crazy.

0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:02.520
<v Speaker 2>I was on the live. My sisters were on the

0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.280
<v Speaker 2>call as well. We're on what's that video? And we

0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.760
<v Speaker 2>just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the

0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:09.400
<v Speaker 2>whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.

0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.119
<v Speaker 2>You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa,

0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.160
<v Speaker 2>because I had the whole filming crew in my house

0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.080
<v Speaker 2>filming me watching her land. It was a huge It

0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.839
<v Speaker 2>was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical

0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.880
<v Speaker 2>sense of her being back on the soil. It's still

0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.479
<v Speaker 2>something I feel now. Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable,

0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.280
<v Speaker 2>she felt like she was always evading and escaping. It

0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.960
<v Speaker 2>felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that

0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.800
<v Speaker 2>she's here. She can't escape anymore. She's here, She's on

0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.120
<v Speaker 2>Australian soil. It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.

0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:46.880
<v Speaker 2>And then the next morning I heard her voice for

0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:48.960
<v Speaker 2>the first time because she was arranged. They go to

0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:50.760
<v Speaker 2>court and they get you know, how do you plead

0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.080
<v Speaker 2>or whatever words the judge says, and that was all

0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:53.520
<v Speaker 2>the courts.

0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?

0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Closed? Everything online?

0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay? Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here

0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.560
<v Speaker 1>on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure

0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.000
<v Speaker 1>you would have hung in there, but that would have

0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:11.080
<v Speaker 1>been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.

0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded. Bao kept

0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.440
<v Speaker 1>in custody, Yes, okay. Were you in contact with the

0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.320
<v Speaker 1>police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long

0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:21.960
<v Speaker 1>that might take.

0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.720
<v Speaker 2>So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp

0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.600
<v Speaker 2>and the people that were needed with us, and we

0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.120
<v Speaker 2>had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll

0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.640
<v Speaker 2>be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September,

0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.039
<v Speaker 2>and that was the first court appearance for us. So

0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.600
<v Speaker 2>we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this

0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.360
<v Speaker 2>is happening there, this is actually happening. I remember them

0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.960
<v Speaker 2>saying at the time, absolutely no news. There is a

0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.359
<v Speaker 2>gag out of the secondary lands on this country. You

0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.560
<v Speaker 2>are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you

0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.680
<v Speaker 2>cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.

0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.280
<v Speaker 2>And that was it. We went utterly silent. So there

0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.000
<v Speaker 2>was like one news crew that tried to follow me

0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.040
<v Speaker 2>and try to get a statement fast the committal and

0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.279
<v Speaker 2>they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.

0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:00.799
<v Speaker 2>We actually couldn't say a word.

0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?

0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID,

0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:07.920
<v Speaker 2>so we to wear masks and we were like, oh,

0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:09.800
<v Speaker 2>can we just take it off in the building, not

0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.920
<v Speaker 2>to you get into the room. It was done remotely,

0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.760
<v Speaker 2>like not in the court, orne in the opp's office,

0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.279
<v Speaker 2>and we sat down for a couple of days, each

0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.440
<v Speaker 2>of us giving our evidence. Only the defense lawyer the

0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.040
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying

0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.080
<v Speaker 2>to show, prove that this court can be given.

0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.479
<v Speaker 1>And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process,

0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.040
<v Speaker 1>but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.

0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.240
<v Speaker 2>The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then

0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.400
<v Speaker 2>that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision,

0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.279
<v Speaker 2>which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.

0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.480
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I just found some journal

0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.000
<v Speaker 2>notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got

0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.120
<v Speaker 2>the notification that's been committed to trial. And how I

0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:46.160
<v Speaker 2>felt then, did.

0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.240
<v Speaker 1>You found some of your own journals? Tell us what

0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:50.440
<v Speaker 1>were you thinking?

0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.880
<v Speaker 2>It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad

0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:54.680
<v Speaker 2>because it was like I had so much hope for

0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.880
<v Speaker 2>justice and I was so excited for justice. It was

0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.240
<v Speaker 2>tinged with sadness. But also I could see back in

0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was

0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:04.960
<v Speaker 2>committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always

0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:06.640
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of we had so many times it

0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.840
<v Speaker 2>was almost and never happened that almost could even happen

0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.760
<v Speaker 2>all the way to the day trial starts. So the

0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.080
<v Speaker 2>fact that it was committed was incredible. It was committed

0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.680
<v Speaker 2>for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day

0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.280
<v Speaker 2>it was meant to start, strange star birth before it

0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.800
<v Speaker 2>was pushed off the day before. Why the defense team

0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.080
<v Speaker 2>and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions

0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.360
<v Speaker 2>that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks

0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.200
<v Speaker 2>they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge,

0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess, did not have availability to allow for more

0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.160
<v Speaker 2>pre trial conversations to happen. So trial was pushed off

0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.600
<v Speaker 2>to February. That was a huge blow. We had all

0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.920
<v Speaker 2>moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had

0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.240
<v Speaker 2>all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a

0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.920
<v Speaker 2>pushed off at such a late stage was crushing. It

0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.760
<v Speaker 2>felt like it could not get any worse, And I

0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.640
<v Speaker 2>know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.

0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we

0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.720
<v Speaker 2>can't control. It's the system, it works. We understand that,

0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:08.640
<v Speaker 2>but it still is impactful regardless.

0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.600
<v Speaker 1>I think we can't control it, but I think more

0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.960
<v Speaker 1>effort could be done to keep them on track because

0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.320
<v Speaker 1>I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and

0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.680
<v Speaker 1>as you described it from a victim's point of view,

0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.240
<v Speaker 1>your whole life is focused on this. You've rearranged your

0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.280
<v Speaker 1>life and then it gets put off on short notice

0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.920
<v Speaker 1>because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or

0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.320
<v Speaker 1>even prosecutors need more time things like that. We've really

0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.000
<v Speaker 1>got to be conscious of the impact that has on people,

0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:39.400
<v Speaker 1>like what you're going through. So it's been delayed. It

0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.520
<v Speaker 1>finally comes up the trial. It talk us through the

0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.640
<v Speaker 1>emotions and what took place there.

0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.959
<v Speaker 2>So because we now knew it was actually happening second

0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.920
<v Speaker 2>time round, my sisters and I again moved out of

0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:53.959
<v Speaker 2>home because we need to be fully focused. We cannot

0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.400
<v Speaker 2>be a parent at the same time as giving evidence

0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.200
<v Speaker 2>to the extent that we needed to. So we just

0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.800
<v Speaker 2>moved to a quest near in South Bank so we

0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.280
<v Speaker 2>can get to the city easy every day. And once

0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.800
<v Speaker 2>this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle

0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.240
<v Speaker 2>down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.

0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner,

0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.240
<v Speaker 2>our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere. And

0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.720
<v Speaker 2>then it was day one and we were video like

0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.560
<v Speaker 2>journaling the whole time. So we have videos of us

0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.440
<v Speaker 2>three together that morning of the afternoon of how we

0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.040
<v Speaker 2>felt post like we just there. And then it was like,

0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.040
<v Speaker 2>we are going to walk in together. We are proud,

0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.880
<v Speaker 2>we are going to walk with our backs up, and

0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:38.080
<v Speaker 2>this is our moment to finally face the woman who

0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.480
<v Speaker 2>has invaded our every waking moment for years and over

0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:46.640
<v Speaker 2>a decade or two decades, including the abuse. And we're

0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.480
<v Speaker 2>going to go and seek justice. We're going to do this.

0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.400
<v Speaker 2>And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were

0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.640
<v Speaker 2>all in the room, We all left the quest together.

0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.640
<v Speaker 2>We walked to court. There was a huge camera crew

0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.959
<v Speaker 2>outside taking pictures and everything like that. So it felt

0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:02.880
<v Speaker 2>very surreal.

0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or

0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.960
<v Speaker 1>this was at another level again when it got to this, This.

0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Was a higher level. But we had been so many

0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.760
<v Speaker 2>years around media and even the ABC documentary that we

0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:17.880
<v Speaker 2>did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew

0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.640
<v Speaker 2>how to kind of like zona out, and we also

0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.400
<v Speaker 2>knew how to boundaries. We also knew how to manage

0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.160
<v Speaker 2>the media. So yes to one, No, we can do

0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:24.760
<v Speaker 2>you after or can we all just have you together

0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.320
<v Speaker 2>in one room so we can just see we had Yeah,

0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.680
<v Speaker 2>we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that. And

0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:31.600
<v Speaker 2>also we couldn't talk as much as we would have

0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.680
<v Speaker 2>loved to, We couldn't say a word. So we just

0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.439
<v Speaker 2>walked right into court and went to level one in

0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:37.240
<v Speaker 2>counter court.

0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.640
<v Speaker 1>Making a statement, walking in proud and.

0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.920
<v Speaker 2>With our family members all supporting us and coming with

0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.560
<v Speaker 2>all our siblings came and we went and spoke with

0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.000
<v Speaker 2>the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.

0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.559
<v Speaker 1>Is that the first time you've seen her since she's

0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.280
<v Speaker 1>been extra di either back to in person, so.

0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.120
<v Speaker 2>This is a funny thing. Yeah, we actually asked her

0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.079
<v Speaker 2>for a screen. So I felt, and I don't know

0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:01.880
<v Speaker 2>if you can understand this, but the respect for the

0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.520
<v Speaker 2>judge was huge. It was like heavy and deep in

0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.640
<v Speaker 2>the room. So I felt it would be so disrespectful

0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.160
<v Speaker 2>if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer,

0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.

0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.480
<v Speaker 2>So I felt her and I heard her voice because

0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.320
<v Speaker 2>she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.

0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:21.960
<v Speaker 1>I want to see her.

0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.400
<v Speaker 2>So they had to go set up a whole computer

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.520
<v Speaker 2>for her to be able to see me giving evidence

0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.200
<v Speaker 2>because she couldn't see me physically. And they did that,

0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:30.840
<v Speaker 2>and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at

0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.640
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor, I looked at the jury. On day two,

0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I slightly turned my chair. I was like, I'm not

0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.360
<v Speaker 2>going through without staring her down. That's not happening. And

0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.640
<v Speaker 2>she did this very side as she's walk turned around

0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.440
<v Speaker 2>out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.

0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.439
<v Speaker 2>Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep. But then

0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:49.839
<v Speaker 2>on the third day I just didn't care anymore and

0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:51.920
<v Speaker 2>I just fully turned around and looked at her right

0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.959
<v Speaker 2>up and down and then turned back again.

0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely it was.

0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.520
<v Speaker 2>It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail,

0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and I am free, and I can walk out this

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.199
<v Speaker 2>courtroom and join my family and my community.

0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I can imagine how that must must feel, how

0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:09.560
<v Speaker 1>empowering that must feel.

0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:11.920
<v Speaker 2>It was very necessary for me to look at her

0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.520
<v Speaker 2>because she loomed and she still does at time so

0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.840
<v Speaker 2>big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.

0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.040
<v Speaker 2>So I have had to see her and realize that

0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.200
<v Speaker 2>I am here and you are there like there were.

0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.880
<v Speaker 2>It was very necessary for my own healing and my

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.200
<v Speaker 2>own journey. I hadn't seen her in person since the

0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.520
<v Speaker 2>day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening,

0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.680
<v Speaker 2>So that that amount of time working around trying to

0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.839
<v Speaker 2>bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because

0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 2>she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the

0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.000
<v Speaker 2>camera crews. She was meant to come to court that

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.199
<v Speaker 2>day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.920
<v Speaker 2>not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again. Right, Okay,

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 2>So she had been attending in person until then and

0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.360
<v Speaker 2>doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.200
<v Speaker 2>to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that

0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.

0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.520
<v Speaker 1>played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.

0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 1>How long we were in the witness box giving.

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Court's intimidating for anyone. I don't care what they say.

0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 1>If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the witness box as stupid. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:22.319
<v Speaker 1>natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about. How

0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:23.599
<v Speaker 1>did you find the experience?

0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.880
<v Speaker 2>It feels like the whole court process is designed to

0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.720
<v Speaker 2>make the victim feel like they've done something wrong. And

0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.320
<v Speaker 2>that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered,

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:36.839
<v Speaker 2>we should feel we have a chance to say our

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.320
<v Speaker 2>whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.719
<v Speaker 2>is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.680
<v Speaker 2>And I walked in and said in the stand. As

0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.679
<v Speaker 2>I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of water, and it was just the feeling in the

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.839
<v Speaker 2>room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's

0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 2>like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 2>sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room,

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.719
<v Speaker 2>despite the fact that it was despite that I had

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.

0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 2>The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me,

0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 2>and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 2>at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:24.480
<v Speaker 2>at the sentencing. I think judges have a right to

0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.720
<v Speaker 2>be and they need to be unbiased and impartial. But

0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>we're humans and they can, and there have been judges

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.560
<v Speaker 2>they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down,

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 2>or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't

0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.480
<v Speaker 2>mean anything. That just means they're chronowledging that you are

0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 2>a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.000
<v Speaker 2>you've come up to stand up and talk about it

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 2>in the most clinical terms, which is really what I

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 2>find what the stand did to me and I'm sure

0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to my sisters into other victims as well. It can

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 2>narrow down six and a half years of abuse to

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 2>four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which

0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 2>is the whole seveny issues around. So it wasn't anything specific,

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 2>and it can literally narrow even further to time whether

0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 2>exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 2>bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.920
<v Speaker 2>this particular way and not that particular way, and it

0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 2>really boils it down to such a clinical nature. There's

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 2>not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 2>type of woman and the control she had and the

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>impact in every area, and how she was always around

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.800
<v Speaker 2>and there none of that was explained in a way

0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.480
<v Speaker 2>that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 2>These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's

0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>what it does. And I understand, you've got to prove

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.920
<v Speaker 2>beyond reasonable doubts. You have to narrow down and really

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.600
<v Speaker 2>ask the hard questions and get right in there. But

0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.840
<v Speaker 2>give enough context around mulcut Lifer. Yes, around our background, yes,

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.560
<v Speaker 2>how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 2>And I also understand my story was extensive. She abused

0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.240
<v Speaker 2>me hundreds of times. He got boiled down to only

0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 2>five charges given to me. I didn't really get a chance.

0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.800
<v Speaker 2>I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 2>discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I

0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 2>walked out of three days not feeling that I did

0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 2>justice for myself. I didn't feel I had a chance

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.040
<v Speaker 2>to say my story. And I think that is the

0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 2>misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to court. They think we're going to get up there

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and we're going to just it's going to all pour

0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.520
<v Speaker 2>out and we can talk. And it's not it's so scripted,

0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's so careful. And you say one word wrong mistrial,

0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 2>You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.

0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.080
<v Speaker 1>And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 2>And and we are my sisters and I are people

0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.520
<v Speaker 2>that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems

0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and other different things that were going on in our

0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 2>lives and in Israel. My sister and I had attended

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a court case in America to support a victim there,

0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 2>so we were well aware of how it worked there.

0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 2>And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask,

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.240
<v Speaker 2>we knew what to say, we knew what to wear,

0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.280
<v Speaker 2>we knew how to look. We felt confident. We were

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 2>waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were

0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>very switched on. And still still it felt like I

0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.000
<v Speaker 2>did not really have my chance to say my story.

0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.840
<v Speaker 2>And the jury don't really know what Marco life had

0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:08.159
<v Speaker 2>did to me.

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 1>They just don't.

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.639
<v Speaker 2>They're walking away things. Was that really a rape or

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.440
<v Speaker 2>was that not really a rape? Well I'm not sure

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 2>because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this,

0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.720
<v Speaker 2>know they're thinking, but this is all the different things

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 2>I've thought since then.

0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.119
<v Speaker 1>I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.159
<v Speaker 1>the first person that's gott in the witness box and

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.120
<v Speaker 1>got out and felt that way. It's a shame that

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 1>the courts doesn't allow. You know, We've got a system

0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 1>that set up. You know, people say it's good. I

0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 1>think it can always be improved, but I do understand

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 1>what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box

0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.119
<v Speaker 1>and not with the pressure that you're under in regards

0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.600
<v Speaker 1>to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you,

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.719
<v Speaker 1>but get out of the witness box and think I

0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.320
<v Speaker 1>wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 1>got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting

0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.760
<v Speaker 1>there thinking I could answer this if I was just

0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.280
<v Speaker 1>allowed to talk and explain the situation. So the context

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.720
<v Speaker 1>is important. Another issue that you talk there. I think

0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:04.720
<v Speaker 1>it is time that we change. And it's not the

0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.879
<v Speaker 1>criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there,

0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 1>but judges in general, I think we should allow a

0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.440
<v Speaker 1>little bit of humanity in the court. So I've seen

0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.159
<v Speaker 1>it time and time again in murder trials at a

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.560
<v Speaker 1>high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity

0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.159
<v Speaker 1>there for the victims. And I understand there needs to

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>be an independence and you know, it's not about the

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.920
<v Speaker 1>emotion of it, it's about the facts. But a little

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.000
<v Speaker 1>bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.

0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:37.560
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there

0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.159
<v Speaker 1>because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to

0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.840
<v Speaker 1>the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 1>that the judge believes what the person is saying. Perhaps

0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.240
<v Speaker 1>that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 1>The courts are there to set or to represent and

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.080
<v Speaker 1>provide justice for the community. I think we've got to

0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.120
<v Speaker 1>make some adjustments.

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I think judges and general should have very specific trauma

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.959
<v Speaker 2>informed training for them specifically, and that is something that

0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges

0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 2>can make some really awful comments that can really impact

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.199
<v Speaker 2>the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to

0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.480
<v Speaker 2>a victim when they say something the way that they

0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 2>phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go

0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.

0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Now I don't think we had an awful judge. I

0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 2>think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.640
<v Speaker 2>on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that

0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.800
<v Speaker 2>defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.360
<v Speaker 2>that job. Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>defense lawyers that they have a job to do. But

0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.920
<v Speaker 2>they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing,

0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending. They

0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully,

0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 2>because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.720
<v Speaker 2>and has worked so hard to be on that stand.

0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.280
<v Speaker 2>So I think there needs to be a whole, a

0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 2>whole change with the way that the legal system works

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.320
<v Speaker 2>in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course

0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.960
<v Speaker 2>family violence and other things. And that has to come

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 2>with just some really specific training given to the judges,

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.920
<v Speaker 2>defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported

0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.399
<v Speaker 2>through the process. And that is something I feel very

0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.719
<v Speaker 2>passionately about and I hope that I can join and

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining

0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.120
<v Speaker 2>a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.960
<v Speaker 2>to allow victims to feel more supported and have more

0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:29.560
<v Speaker 2>rights in the legal system.

0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:32.879
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a very important to important thing. You

0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:37.520
<v Speaker 1>don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.

0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.159
<v Speaker 2>And many victims say that the core experience is an

0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 2>additional trauma. It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.

0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.480
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.840
<v Speaker 1>I agree, but some of them. Yeah, I give them

0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.119
<v Speaker 1>the lad that you that there is a job, and

0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.120
<v Speaker 1>a very important job. But I've seen defense that solicitors,

0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.000
<v Speaker 1>barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.

0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.439
<v Speaker 1>So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.

0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are

0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 1>hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 1>of the eyes and that type of thing. You're very

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.520
<v Speaker 1>much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box,

0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:19.200
<v Speaker 1>and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you. Yeah.

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.159
<v Speaker 1>The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.560
<v Speaker 1>I think you said, by the time the jury came

0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 1>back after you gave evidence for three days, were you

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.359
<v Speaker 1>allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.

0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 2>Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because

0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.840
<v Speaker 2>of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept

0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.399
<v Speaker 2>doing until Dusting Ellie finished. No, and after that we

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 2>were allowed to listen online. They preferred us not to

0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.199
<v Speaker 2>be in the court room, right, as, are you going

0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:51.560
<v Speaker 2>to stop me? Like I could prefer I know I can,

0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.320
<v Speaker 2>but of course I respected them and I didn't go

0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:58.680
<v Speaker 2>in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful. Yeah,

0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.159
<v Speaker 2>so we just like, yeah, most days we were in

0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 2>court and everyone listening on our own individual devices. The

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.439
<v Speaker 2>defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have

0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:08.000
<v Speaker 2>to be in separate room. So on the first day

0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:09.480
<v Speaker 2>we are all in separate room, and then we're like,

0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.560
<v Speaker 2>stuff it, we're not going to talk. It's not a party.

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.199
<v Speaker 2>We're sitting to listen. We're listening in the same room

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.719
<v Speaker 2>in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay. So

0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:17.600
<v Speaker 2>we did that. The social worker was amazing. She was

0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.560
<v Speaker 2>with us most days, supporting us. There wasn't one time

0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:22.760
<v Speaker 2>that there was a question. Every I thought it was

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 2>a verdict. So it was like, oh, mad rush. Everyone

0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>went up to the court room and the prosecution and

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the

0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:31.200
<v Speaker 2>judges like, I'm not waiting for them. He's like, they're

0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:32.879
<v Speaker 2>in the room right next door. So we came in.

0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:34.520
<v Speaker 2>It was just a question. But that was good. Really

0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:35.040
<v Speaker 2>she got in.

0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Now when it got to the jury has come back,

0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:40.240
<v Speaker 1>where were you and how were you notified?

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.800
<v Speaker 2>My sisters were in court with eye. It was nine days.

0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Everyone was on edge.

0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 1>So the jury was out for nine days.

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Nine days. The prosecution was on edge, the social worker

0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 2>was on edge, the police was on edge. We were

0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:53.919
<v Speaker 2>in court every single day. There was news outside. You

0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.520
<v Speaker 2>could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after

0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.439
<v Speaker 2>day after day. First weekend came and we're like, surely,

0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 2>only it's going to happen on Monday. Now, next weekend came,

0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.040
<v Speaker 2>We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like,

0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:07.880
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be today. We're all going to dress

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.199
<v Speaker 2>and the same things we were on the first day

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:11.399
<v Speaker 2>of trial, because that's momentous for us. It's going to

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.479
<v Speaker 2>be today, And it was. We didn't know when at

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 2>three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.360
<v Speaker 2>The prosecutor called. I said, a verdicts in. I said,

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>three o'clock. Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's

0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.199
<v Speaker 2>filmed for the Docky. They allowed just one camera in

0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.480
<v Speaker 2>to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.

0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Everyone ran and met in the corridor. The prosecutor, the

0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.119
<v Speaker 2>social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like,

0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:35.080
<v Speaker 2>it's happening. It's happening. I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.

0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.240
<v Speaker 2>I said to her, if I get not guilty and

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:44.879
<v Speaker 2>I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 2>stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty,

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it,

0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:51.960
<v Speaker 2>and you'll see it on the doco. It's there because

0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I felt it. I don't know why. Sometimes you just

0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.280
<v Speaker 2>have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply,

0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:58.560
<v Speaker 2>and I didn't want to feel it. Yeah, I didn't

0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:00.320
<v Speaker 2>want to feel it, but I did. And when we

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.879
<v Speaker 2>walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters. There

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:08.800
<v Speaker 2>was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet,

0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 2>it was like pin drop silence. And with a room

0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:13.920
<v Speaker 2>pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.119
<v Speaker 2>that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:19.399
<v Speaker 2>anticipatory it was. And then the knock knock, and the

0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:22.560
<v Speaker 2>judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury

0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:26.119
<v Speaker 2>and then he says a couple of things and very short,

0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.679
<v Speaker 2>but then he says and in regards to the verdict,

0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.840
<v Speaker 2>if anyone is going to lose their composure or make

0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.360
<v Speaker 2>a distraction, they can leave as well. And that's when

0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 2>he's saying that to me or to one of us.

0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.679
<v Speaker 2>Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.

0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:46.080
<v Speaker 2>Not one jury member looked at us, not one. That

0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.360
<v Speaker 2>is not a good sign sign anyone knows that. And

0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 2>we kept trying to catch their eye. We were right

0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:54.520
<v Speaker 2>there and they were right there. They refused to look

0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 2>at us. And then the jury foreman got up and

0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:01.399
<v Speaker 2>said not guilty. And it was just a shock to

0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty,

0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.280
<v Speaker 2>not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then guilty. And

0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:11.880
<v Speaker 2>then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole

0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.520
<v Speaker 2>cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty,

0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:16.240
<v Speaker 2>even just one, she's guilty. She's not going to be

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.600
<v Speaker 2>going back to Israel today. It was like everyone took

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.320
<v Speaker 2>a breath, and then they just read there's a couple

0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:23.560
<v Speaker 2>not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers,

0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 2>and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff

0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks

0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 2>them for the service, tells them they don't have to

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 2>do jury forever many year, more years. And then we

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 2>all leave the room and go downstairs. And then there's

0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:36.959
<v Speaker 2>like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just

0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 2>like not sure what I'm feeling. My sisters are broken

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:42.200
<v Speaker 2>harder for me, so they're in tears. I'm not in tears.

0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:45.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm in shock. I'm in such shock. We go down

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:46.840
<v Speaker 2>to the room together. We spend a few minutes alone.

0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Then the whole team comes in. They talk. I don't

0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:51.119
<v Speaker 2>think I can remember anything they said. It was flying

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.280
<v Speaker 2>above my head. They all left the room. We know

0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the news is waiting for us downstairs. We prepared for

0:25:56.040 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 2>not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict. So we

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.920
<v Speaker 2>had our statements prepared that day. We prepared them knowing

0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:06.320
<v Speaker 2>what the different outcomes might be. And my sisters were

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:08.640
<v Speaker 2>just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got

0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:11.760
<v Speaker 2>to go. I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't,

0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:15.119
<v Speaker 2>and I was the strong one for them. I stood

0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:16.600
<v Speaker 2>there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.

0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:18.560
<v Speaker 2>We can't keep them waiting. It's already five. We need

0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 2>to go. I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.

0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:22.520
<v Speaker 2>And I just kept saying that. I don't know what strength

0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:24.280
<v Speaker 2>I had at that moment to say that and not

0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 2>to collapse in my grief and just like not want

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 2>to face the world, but I just I gave them

0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:33.600
<v Speaker 2>strength that I was okay, that we will go outside,

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:35.520
<v Speaker 2>we will face the media, and we will do this.

0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:39.040
<v Speaker 2>And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I

0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:41.080
<v Speaker 2>was okay and we walked out.

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Amazing how you can react that way. And we'll talk

0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:48.600
<v Speaker 1>a little bit about that towards the end. So what

0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:52.320
<v Speaker 1>we've got here a situation and people fully understand the

0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:54.560
<v Speaker 1>three of you who have been united in this fight

0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:58.120
<v Speaker 1>to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.

0:26:58.160 --> 0:27:00.480
<v Speaker 1>And I know that you've described it other than I

0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:02.840
<v Speaker 1>can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of

0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:06.439
<v Speaker 1>a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.200
<v Speaker 1>to come out, and the first lot is not guilty,

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:14.440
<v Speaker 1>not guilty, and then finally get guilty. Your sisters would

0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 1>have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they

0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:22.080
<v Speaker 1>made have been proven at court, But the fact that

0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:25.040
<v Speaker 1>they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the

0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:27.720
<v Speaker 1>fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:32.399
<v Speaker 1>take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you. Yeah, okay,

0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:36.720
<v Speaker 1>you've prepared, your prepared your media statements. Yes, and that

0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.200
<v Speaker 1>you've gone out there. How is that fronting the media

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:41.840
<v Speaker 1>after all these years? This is a long, as you said,

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 1>over decades from the time the abuse until finally you

0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>get the words.

0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:49.480
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't hard for me because I was still in

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:51.840
<v Speaker 2>that mode of I'm okay. Ellie and Dussy were a

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:53.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit more emotional. They were speaking because you could

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.280
<v Speaker 2>see they were feeling it. He answered a couple questions.

0:27:56.400 --> 0:27:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Was over pretty fast. They followed us. We kept trying

0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:00.320
<v Speaker 2>to walk away. They kept following, We kept trying to

0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 2>walk away, and then we're just kind of like like

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:04.040
<v Speaker 2>lost chicken. We're like, what do we do now? Where

0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:07.199
<v Speaker 2>do we go? I think my sister's husband booked us

0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 2>a place to stay for the night, and we knew

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:10.720
<v Speaker 2>we were going to be together that night. And then

0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:12.359
<v Speaker 2>I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us,

0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:14.000
<v Speaker 2>so we did a bit with them and then kind

0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.720
<v Speaker 2>of just like flitted away and we went back to

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:18.280
<v Speaker 2>where we were staying, and we had a lot of

0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 2>news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:22.439
<v Speaker 2>not talking to anyone tonight. We actually can say that

0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:23.960
<v Speaker 2>now we don't have to talk. We can talk to

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:28.400
<v Speaker 2>everyone tomorrow. We're not talking to anyone tonight. Then Ellie said, okay, fine,

0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:30.879
<v Speaker 2>just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and

0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:33.040
<v Speaker 2>it was the one that was like just not English

0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:35.600
<v Speaker 2>second language. So we ended up just like bursting into

0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.000
<v Speaker 2>laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing,

0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:39.600
<v Speaker 2>and then trying to give the question back to her

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected,

0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:44.320
<v Speaker 2>and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions,

0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional,

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 2>beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters

0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:52.080
<v Speaker 2>the best And then one sister said that she's not

0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:53.880
<v Speaker 2>after doing media the next day, she needs to break.

0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:56.600
<v Speaker 2>So Ellie and I did the project and again this

0:28:56.680 --> 0:28:58.440
<v Speaker 2>is all me, still running on a journal and still

0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 2>in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting,

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:06.040
<v Speaker 2>and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have a chance to process any of it

0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 2>because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life

0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:14.080
<v Speaker 2>normally is.

0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:18.640
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and

0:29:18.680 --> 0:29:22.000
<v Speaker 1>your kids did. How did they receive it? Do we

0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 1>get their mum and wife back? Now? Is that?

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if my kids felt that way. I

0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:29.920
<v Speaker 2>think that I feel like my family because I wasn't

0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:31.920
<v Speaker 2>talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:34.160
<v Speaker 2>not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.

0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:36.480
<v Speaker 2>And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and

0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 2>those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well,

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I was hardly there. I think I was hardly present

0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:43.760
<v Speaker 2>most of that festival. I was dealing with the grief

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:46.240
<v Speaker 2>and the shock and the loss and all of that

0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>sadness that was coming up. But it was devastating. It

0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and

0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:57.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't get that justice.

0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's

0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:05.440
<v Speaker 1>got justice? And really, if it's you're in this together,

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:08.600
<v Speaker 1>but is it? Can you take any comfort from it?

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:12.240
<v Speaker 2>I can? But what a lot of victim survivors who

0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 2>don't do their statements in groups or any others I

0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:16.480
<v Speaker 2>have got and not guilty will know that a lot

0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:19.000
<v Speaker 2>of other steps to justice are denied. So when the

0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there

0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 2>to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst

0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 2>day for me. That was the twenty eighth of June.

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:27.239
<v Speaker 2>And I will never forget that day. In a way,

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 2>it's even worse than hearing.

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Not guilty, because you couldn't get.

0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I was completely invalidated. I almost didn't feel like I

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:34.239
<v Speaker 2>should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give

0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a victim of state, You're.

0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Not real I'm gone.

0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:39.920
<v Speaker 2>That's it. I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing,

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.240
<v Speaker 2>none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 2>for me, and that she was in prison because of

0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:46.880
<v Speaker 2>something she did to me. So yes, comfort in the

0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:50.600
<v Speaker 2>collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 1>I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just

0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:57.360
<v Speaker 1>stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you

0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:00.120
<v Speaker 1>said how driven you were for justice, and then just

0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>just not at that point in time.

0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok,

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:10.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's my voice is My Justice. And that's literally

0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 2>been what I've used in the last two weeks because

0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:16.320
<v Speaker 2>I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:18.160
<v Speaker 2>not going to get justice. That even if a whole

0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:20.160
<v Speaker 2>bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did

0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:22.280
<v Speaker 2>get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial,

0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:24.120
<v Speaker 2>and they told me they can't because of the contamination

0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:26.440
<v Speaker 2>and the high profile nature. They can't. So even if

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.480
<v Speaker 2>they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter. So I'm not

0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 2>going to get that chance for justice. So my voice

0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 2>is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.

0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:37.360
<v Speaker 2>So I was very quiet for a couple of months,

0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:39.440
<v Speaker 2>and I think my sisters told me after they were

0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:41.720
<v Speaker 2>worried about me, that I would never recover and come

0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:43.880
<v Speaker 2>out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids,

0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:47.560
<v Speaker 2>but very quiet in any other sense. And then that's it.

0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:50.600
<v Speaker 2>I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:52.720
<v Speaker 2>to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:54.720
<v Speaker 2>Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and

0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Childhood Foundation. Started studying law this year. So I am

0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:02.040
<v Speaker 2>just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail

0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 2>my life. Instead, I've switched it around and I've become

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.040
<v Speaker 2>a voice for survivors. I've spoken at many events. I've

0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:11.240
<v Speaker 2>advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while

0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I start studying law so that I can get into

0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:15.480
<v Speaker 2>the system and help victims from the inside, not just

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:19.040
<v Speaker 2>from the advocacy space. So I really turned around that

0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:23.240
<v Speaker 2>pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough,

0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:25.400
<v Speaker 2>TikTok helped me a lot with that. I opened TikTok

0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>and just started talking and people started sharing. Started absolutely

0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:32.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole incredible community of survivors there. The amount

0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:35.960
<v Speaker 2>of particularly older generation, old of me. I just turned forty,

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:38.200
<v Speaker 2>disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that

0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:40.440
<v Speaker 2>they were abused when they were younger is incredible. And

0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:43.760
<v Speaker 2>I've created that space that people feel safe to share

0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:46.880
<v Speaker 2>knowing that there's someone there that understands them. And I've

0:32:46.880 --> 0:32:49.360
<v Speaker 2>met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians. I've

0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:51.479
<v Speaker 2>invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give

0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:53.160
<v Speaker 2>them the opportunity to be in a room full of

0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:56.680
<v Speaker 2>survivors at an event. And I really have used my

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>voice to get my own justice.

0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:02.560
<v Speaker 1>That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>people and people that sit in this chair because I

0:33:05.280 --> 0:33:08.520
<v Speaker 1>hear a lot of stories of different things. We're a

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 1>set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing,

0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:13.680
<v Speaker 1>but defines who you are, how you react after that,

0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:17.160
<v Speaker 1>and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that

0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:22.160
<v Speaker 1>you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.

0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.

0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder

0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:34.800
<v Speaker 1>of three children in their community and we couldn't get

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.320
<v Speaker 1>it through the courts and constant battles to try and

0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:41.120
<v Speaker 1>get justice. They've been fighting for over thirty years to

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:43.920
<v Speaker 1>get justice for the three children that have been murdered.

0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 1>She would often say to me, justice comes in in

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:50.920
<v Speaker 1>many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story,

0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 1>telling our people's story. And I always hung on to

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.720
<v Speaker 1>that that. I look at it from a policing point

0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:58.800
<v Speaker 1>of view. Justice had to be served through the courts,

0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:01.520
<v Speaker 1>but you are getting just in another way. You've been

0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.160
<v Speaker 1>given a platform and you're using it, and you're using

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:08.480
<v Speaker 1>it to make a difference. And the person that committed

0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 1>these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in

0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:14.600
<v Speaker 1>jail now and you're out here helping people. Yes, do

0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 1>you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.

0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:19.879
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:23.040
<v Speaker 2>It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.

0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:25.760
<v Speaker 2>It's something that eats away at me. But I'm working

0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:28.000
<v Speaker 2>through therapy and through understanding that.

0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:29.920
<v Speaker 1>You're inter views in therapy.

0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:31.919
<v Speaker 2>No definitely, no more.

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, sorry I shouldn't know. That's totally part of it.

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 1>But you've got to laugh.

0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 2>me that because of our story and their family hearing

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 2>about Markoleefer. Their family believed them finally after all these years,

0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 2>because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.

0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.319
<v Speaker 2>So she said, do you take comfort from that? And

0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:52.600
<v Speaker 2>I said, I do. I do, but I still have

0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 2>to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the

0:34:54.640 --> 0:34:56.920
<v Speaker 2>not guilty part of it. But I am working so

0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 2>hard on that in everything, in every way. It's just

0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:01.680
<v Speaker 2>something that will I think for a very very long time.

0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I think when a perpetrator has had that much control

0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and impact on my life as a Michael life I

0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 2>did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse

0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:12.640
<v Speaker 2>all of that and to find myself and to realize

0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:14.759
<v Speaker 2>that even if I'm still living in the community and

0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>still in the same area and I passed by the

0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:19.520
<v Speaker 2>houses that she abused in or the school, I am

0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 2>safe now and I am the person that is not

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:24.760
<v Speaker 2>going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.

0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:27.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's a constant work in progress.

0:35:27.400 --> 0:35:30.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself

0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:32.880
<v Speaker 1>being safe now that you're taking control of the situation

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:36.239
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me. I'm

0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:39.399
<v Speaker 1>stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:43.040
<v Speaker 1>really powerful messaging that you're getting across. Do you feel

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.839
<v Speaker 1>supported by the community and your community and family.

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:50.279
<v Speaker 2>Family, Absolutely, yep. Community I think has a lot a

0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:52.200
<v Speaker 2>long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think

0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:55.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:57.680
<v Speaker 2>I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual

0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:00.360
<v Speaker 2>abuse and the shame. I think that a lot of

0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:02.719
<v Speaker 2>people think that they know how to support survivors because

0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:05.120
<v Speaker 2>they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that

0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 2>they're silent speaks so much more than one message does

0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:11.360
<v Speaker 2>that it needs to really particularly in our community. The

0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:14.160
<v Speaker 2>religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the

0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:16.239
<v Speaker 2>leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how

0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:19.320
<v Speaker 2>we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe

0:36:19.320 --> 0:36:21.560
<v Speaker 2>to come forward because they know they won't be shamed

0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.000
<v Speaker 2>or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently. So

0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman

0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:30.120
<v Speaker 2>can impact that change. Whether I am merit enough to

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.319
<v Speaker 2>see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but

0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I hope that I can create a legacy that people

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:37.000
<v Speaker 2>can say a religious woman spoke out and still was

0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:40.000
<v Speaker 2>able to stay connected and still in the community. We

0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:41.680
<v Speaker 2>can do the same. We don't have to be so

0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:43.840
<v Speaker 2>afraid that other people are going to look down at

0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>us and ostracize us. I will say that I have

0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:49.000
<v Speaker 2>felt people distancing from me because of that is something

0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:50.560
<v Speaker 2>that I have to live with, because of the choices

0:36:50.560 --> 0:36:52.520
<v Speaker 2>that I made to come out and still be in

0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:54.719
<v Speaker 2>the community. But I do not regret that. And the

0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 2>fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my

0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>children with so much joy and love and no fear

0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:01.160
<v Speaker 2>and not the way that I was brought and just

0:37:01.200 --> 0:37:03.480
<v Speaker 2>a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it

0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:05.440
<v Speaker 2>might not be, but for me it is because it

0:37:05.840 --> 0:37:08.440
<v Speaker 2>really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my

0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.600
<v Speaker 2>children with my journey to justice. My second son, who's

0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:13.719
<v Speaker 2>now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a

0:37:13.760 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>school camp like as a youth leader in the winter,

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:18.319
<v Speaker 2>and he joked to me and he got back from

0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:20.560
<v Speaker 2>camp that they were going to do in activity searching

0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:23.279
<v Speaker 2>for Markolaefer. And he laughed at that, and I laughed

0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:25.040
<v Speaker 2>at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.

0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them,

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:30.799
<v Speaker 2>that they can say her name, that they can joke

0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:33.600
<v Speaker 2>about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid

0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:35.000
<v Speaker 2>to share that with me, knowing that I will still

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:38.920
<v Speaker 2>laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And

0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that proves to me that I have not traumatized my

0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:44.320
<v Speaker 2>children with what's happened to me. I've worked so hard

0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:46.800
<v Speaker 2>all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that

0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:48.880
<v Speaker 2>my children should not know what's happening. Yes, they've got

0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:50.279
<v Speaker 2>a mom that runs for the dinner table to a

0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:52.120
<v Speaker 2>phone call or runs out the house to go around

0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:54.439
<v Speaker 2>the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what

0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:56.719
<v Speaker 2>COVID hit. They did have to know a little bit more.

0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:59.200
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I still protected them, and

0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I still am protect them. So it's really just a

0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:03.960
<v Speaker 2>balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor,

0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:06.280
<v Speaker 2>not about not giving them any details of the abuse.

0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:08.680
<v Speaker 2>That this is the woman, the prison, this is the

0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:11.759
<v Speaker 2>prison she's in. News comes out about you know about

0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>her here and there. I don't mind to share that

0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:15.520
<v Speaker 2>with them a little bit, but that's it. So just

0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:18.040
<v Speaker 2>a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the

0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.000
<v Speaker 1>way that you should live life, that you can come

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:27.200
<v Speaker 1>back from things, you can you know, you don't have

0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:29.200
<v Speaker 1>to be broken, you can take control. Like I think

0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:32.840
<v Speaker 1>it's inspirational. The fact that you've also stayed connected with

0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:37.520
<v Speaker 1>your church and your community. That says something too, you like,

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.799
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine that. I'm not judging anyone that does that,

0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.520
<v Speaker 1>but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves

0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:46.000
<v Speaker 1>from the environment. The fact that you can stay in

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:49.400
<v Speaker 1>contact and still work within that environment and operate within

0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:51.399
<v Speaker 1>that environment, I think that says a lot too.

0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.919
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.

0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:57.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not something that's easy. There are times that I

0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:59.279
<v Speaker 2>feel very let down, I think for a good year

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:01.480
<v Speaker 2>and a half two year, and still even now, I

0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:04.719
<v Speaker 2>feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as

0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:07.479
<v Speaker 2>a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole

0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>is incredible. I made a bonments for recently and I

0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:13.800
<v Speaker 2>received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and

0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:16.799
<v Speaker 2>I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind

0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:18.200
<v Speaker 2>of thing in a couple of years. This is what

0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 2>community is. It's beautiful, but at the same time that

0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 2>part of the community is amazing, that part is not.

0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I wish that they would do the same celebrating or

0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:31.120
<v Speaker 2>the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.

0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.239
<v Speaker 2>And how can I create that change to happen so

0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:36.799
<v Speaker 2>it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.

0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I will talk about it in conversations. I'll say the

0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:40.799
<v Speaker 2>premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say

0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:42.960
<v Speaker 2>that because I'm going to put it into their faces.

0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:44.960
<v Speaker 2>I'll post it on my WhatsApp status. You might not

0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:47.200
<v Speaker 2>like it, and you will for sure not come, but

0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:49.040
<v Speaker 2>I want you to know it's happening because we want

0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 2>to change. We want to impact change. My sisters and

0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have

0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:57.160
<v Speaker 2>conversations too. We have the visibility, but we want something

0:39:57.160 --> 0:39:59.680
<v Speaker 2>to be happening from this visibility. We don't just want

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.239
<v Speaker 2>to share story for entertainment. And that's why we met

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:04.440
<v Speaker 2>with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can

0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 2>align with them and work with them and create impacting change.

0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:10.080
<v Speaker 2>And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out,

0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:12.919
<v Speaker 2>and I hope some of those changes can veer into

0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:15.200
<v Speaker 2>my community as well, and I know it does. There

0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:17.680
<v Speaker 2>was an author who was found out to be an abuser,

0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 2>a Jewish author overseas. I called all the three schools

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:22.960
<v Speaker 2>that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.

0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:25.520
<v Speaker 2>And they're kids books that kids read. I read them

0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:27.520
<v Speaker 2>as a teenager. My kids all read them. They loved

0:40:27.560 --> 0:40:30.719
<v Speaker 2>him as an author, and they did. They threw out

0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:35.200
<v Speaker 2>all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid

0:40:35.239 --> 0:40:38.920
<v Speaker 2>to request that of them. So it's changed that needs

0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:40.839
<v Speaker 2>to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part

0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:41.080
<v Speaker 2>of that.

0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 1>The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:48.880
<v Speaker 2>I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.360
<v Speaker 1>talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile,

0:40:56.560 --> 0:41:00.839
<v Speaker 1>worthwhile watching. After everything that you've been through and your

0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:04.359
<v Speaker 1>sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does

0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:06.640
<v Speaker 1>it feel to know that what you've been through is

0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:08.799
<v Speaker 1>going to play out on the big screen with this

0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:09.920
<v Speaker 1>documentary coming up.

0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.759
<v Speaker 2>My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous

0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:17.319
<v Speaker 2>for the documentary. It is very vulnerable, it is raw,

0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:20.960
<v Speaker 2>it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster. It is

0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:26.840
<v Speaker 2>ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey,

0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and we filmed for five years. To have that reduced

0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:33.920
<v Speaker 2>to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:37.439
<v Speaker 2>so well and we are so hopeful that people see

0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the story for the whole, the entirety of the story,

0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 2>not just any agenda. Abuse happens in every community, in

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.279
<v Speaker 2>every religion, in every country all over the world, and

0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:49.960
<v Speaker 2>we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire

0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.800
<v Speaker 2>others to do the same, and we can also impact

0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.600
<v Speaker 2>change others are aware of what it looks like to

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:58.000
<v Speaker 2>be brought up in an abusive home and then be

0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.800
<v Speaker 2>abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.

0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:06.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:09.360
<v Speaker 1>courage to do that. I know one of the people

0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:12.040
<v Speaker 1>behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to

0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:15.480
<v Speaker 1>watch it. I think it'll be really powerful. As you described, yes,

0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:17.879
<v Speaker 1>I think the fact that you are talking about it too,

0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 1>and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:25.200
<v Speaker 1>That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because

0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:29.120
<v Speaker 1>sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk

0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:32.399
<v Speaker 1>about when red flags are seen or just says an

0:42:32.440 --> 0:42:35.759
<v Speaker 1>icky feel or whatever. Something doesn't feel right, people are

0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 1>uncomfortable talking about it. I think the fact that you're

0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:40.759
<v Speaker 1>coming out and talking about it and putting the light

0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:44.640
<v Speaker 1>on it is important and it might prevent further things

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:45.360
<v Speaker 1>like this happening.

0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:47.879
<v Speaker 2>I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary

0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.680
<v Speaker 2>and seeing what went on in our case can cause

0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:53.480
<v Speaker 2>people to think, Wow, that all went on under our

0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.879
<v Speaker 2>noses and we didn't notice. Let's notice more if there's

0:42:56.920 --> 0:42:59.080
<v Speaker 2>a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi

0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.839
<v Speaker 2>lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on,

0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.839
<v Speaker 2>whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:08.399
<v Speaker 2>the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit

0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:12.320
<v Speaker 2>suspicious and not appropriate for children. Go don't just blame

0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:14.520
<v Speaker 2>the child, look further, find out what's going on in

0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.720
<v Speaker 2>the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing,

0:43:18.200 --> 0:43:20.799
<v Speaker 2>and start understanding more that every child is a world

0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 2>of their own, and if you don't notice, those children

0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.360
<v Speaker 2>step through the cracks. And it's upon us as adults

0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:28.279
<v Speaker 2>to notice the children in our lives.

0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:31.320
<v Speaker 1>You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact

0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:34.520
<v Speaker 1>statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you

0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:37.440
<v Speaker 1>on the spot here. What would you want to say

0:43:37.680 --> 0:43:40.560
<v Speaker 1>if she was sitting in the scene in the court

0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:42.560
<v Speaker 1>and you could face it down, and what would you

0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:42.960
<v Speaker 1>say there?

0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I'll answer that in a minute. I did do a

0:43:45.480 --> 0:43:49.320
<v Speaker 2>victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts. It is graphic,

0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:53.480
<v Speaker 2>it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:55.600
<v Speaker 2>And I did do it in seven parts, so seven

0:43:55.680 --> 0:43:57.319
<v Speaker 2>minutes long. And if I would have had a chance

0:43:57.320 --> 0:44:00.560
<v Speaker 2>to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would

0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.319
<v Speaker 2>have been crying. But what I would say to her

0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:08.800
<v Speaker 2>is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching,

0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:10.960
<v Speaker 2>because you can't shy away from what you did to me.

0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even

0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:16.359
<v Speaker 2>a drop in the ocean of what you have done

0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:19.080
<v Speaker 2>to me, and then explain to her the impact of

0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:20.759
<v Speaker 2>all of that. But at the end to day, but

0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:23.920
<v Speaker 2>you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.

0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:26.919
<v Speaker 2>I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going

0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:28.840
<v Speaker 2>to show you that what you have done to me

0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:31.080
<v Speaker 2>is not going to break me and not going to

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:33.840
<v Speaker 2>impact me the way you think it did or you.

0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:39.760
<v Speaker 2>It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.

0:44:39.800 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 2>The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.

0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:45.320
<v Speaker 2>It was like coming off her in waves. She stared

0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:47.760
<v Speaker 2>down the judge, she stared down the jury. She stood

0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:49.880
<v Speaker 2>in a way her body language was I've got this.

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:52.080
<v Speaker 2>And even the prison guy said to us she had

0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:53.840
<v Speaker 2>her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that

0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.560
<v Speaker 2>she's going to Israel that night. That's how confident she

0:44:56.719 --> 0:44:59.120
<v Speaker 2>was and that's the confidence she ran the school. So

0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:01.080
<v Speaker 2>for me to be able to say you did and

0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:04.480
<v Speaker 2>list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a

0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:06.840
<v Speaker 2>little chink in the armor that she has of confidence. No,

0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:08.920
<v Speaker 2>you did all of that, and you're in jail because

0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.799
<v Speaker 2>of that. And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:14.680
<v Speaker 2>It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's

0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:16.839
<v Speaker 2>very it's really heart entering.

0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Powerful. Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the

0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.880
<v Speaker 1>comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of

0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:28.960
<v Speaker 1>course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself. There

0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 1>is something that I won't bog us down with it,

0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:35.320
<v Speaker 1>but there was something that the judge made a comment

0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:39.440
<v Speaker 1>that the type of situation that you found yourself in,

0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.400
<v Speaker 1>so the evidence that you gave helped put into context

0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:45.320
<v Speaker 1>what happened to your sisters as well. So the evidence

0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:49.680
<v Speaker 1>that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay,

0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:52.640
<v Speaker 1>well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred. So I

0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:57.279
<v Speaker 1>think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well,

0:45:57.480 --> 0:45:59.600
<v Speaker 1>everything else you did both sides, going out of the

0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing

0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:06.880
<v Speaker 1>you made a difference at the trial too, So I

0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:10.399
<v Speaker 1>don't think your evidence was ignored. They just who knows

0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:15.560
<v Speaker 1>why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.

0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:19.359
<v Speaker 1>I wish to make the following brief observations. There's been

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:22.600
<v Speaker 1>a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these

0:46:22.640 --> 0:46:25.919
<v Speaker 1>offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as

0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:28.480
<v Speaker 1>the victim impact statements were not made until after the

0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:32.360
<v Speaker 1>jury convicted Miss Lifer. The victims have been able to

0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:35.239
<v Speaker 1>address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on

0:46:35.320 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 1>them during the entire period. For each of them, it

0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:41.200
<v Speaker 1>has been profound and life changing. What they have described

0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.960
<v Speaker 1>comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of

0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:47.520
<v Speaker 1>the offending. Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the

0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:52.120
<v Speaker 1>serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or

0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:55.520
<v Speaker 1>vulnerable has. To the extent that the victims feel a

0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:58.680
<v Speaker 1>personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they

0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:02.640
<v Speaker 1>should not. They were completely innocent victims of the predatory

0:47:02.680 --> 0:47:06.080
<v Speaker 1>behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she

0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:10.760
<v Speaker 1>alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred. So, yeah,

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:14.640
<v Speaker 1>the judge got it. Yeah, it's not about the victims.

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.960
<v Speaker 1>It's not about victim shame. It's one person to blame

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:22.520
<v Speaker 1>blame for this whole thing. Two. Unfortunately, there's a lot

0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:26.359
<v Speaker 1>of victims. Yeah, that they have been through similar situations

0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:30.280
<v Speaker 1>as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice

0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.160
<v Speaker 1>like you had to fight for justice. What message would

0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:35.920
<v Speaker 1>you give to them if they're feeling like they're not

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:37.920
<v Speaker 1>going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a

0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:40.680
<v Speaker 1>brick wall basically and just fighting the system. What sort

0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of advice? What things would you say to them?

0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even

0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:48.960
<v Speaker 2>though I didn't get justice. I believe that every single

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:51.720
<v Speaker 2>time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength

0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:55.759
<v Speaker 2>to go to court. They are forcing the abuser to

0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:59.160
<v Speaker 2>be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't

0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:02.000
<v Speaker 2>result in it guilty plea. So for anyone that has

0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:04.879
<v Speaker 2>a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.

0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:08.399
<v Speaker 2>Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them

0:48:08.560 --> 0:48:10.720
<v Speaker 2>bring the predators and abusers to justice.

0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:14.239
<v Speaker 1>So don't give up good advice. How's your life now?

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:17.200
<v Speaker 1>You've talked about what you're doing. How are you within

0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:20.200
<v Speaker 1>yourself after being through because what you've been through is

0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:24.400
<v Speaker 1>terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting,

0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:27.280
<v Speaker 1>how do you look at life now? That's probably a

0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:27.920
<v Speaker 1>better question.

0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:31.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it's interesting for me because I think because

0:48:31.480 --> 0:48:33.240
<v Speaker 2>of all the time I've been through my life, childhood

0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:36.640
<v Speaker 2>and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe

0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:40.360
<v Speaker 2>state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict

0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:43.920
<v Speaker 2>broke that it caused this emotion to come out because

0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:46.480
<v Speaker 2>it was that impactful, And since then I would say

0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:50.080
<v Speaker 2>that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really

0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:54.279
<v Speaker 2>difficult stuff. And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because

0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had

0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:59.440
<v Speaker 2>did abuse me. Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered

0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:02.160
<v Speaker 2>so much more of what she's done. It's becoming clearer

0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and clearer to me. It means obviously, I'm mentally able

0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.880
<v Speaker 2>to remember a lot more and able to understand the

0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.600
<v Speaker 2>impact and the depth of the level of her abuse

0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and how evil she was, and then work through it

0:49:13.120 --> 0:49:16.200
<v Speaker 2>in therapy, so coming out the other side. So I

0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:19.080
<v Speaker 2>have hope that one day soon she will not be

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:20.719
<v Speaker 2>the first thing I think of and the last thing

0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:23.799
<v Speaker 2>I think of every day, which does still happen just

0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:25.960
<v Speaker 2>because of the nature of the space I'm in and

0:49:26.000 --> 0:49:28.120
<v Speaker 2>the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.

0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:30.400
<v Speaker 2>There has been maybe two moments in the last year

0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 2>where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:35.280
<v Speaker 2>an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't

0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:37.040
<v Speaker 2>the first thing that that was in my mind, or

0:49:37.080 --> 0:49:40.080
<v Speaker 2>she wasn't existent at all. And that's hope is hope,

0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:41.719
<v Speaker 2>and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.

0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:46.440
<v Speaker 1>She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen

0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:47.360
<v Speaker 1>years since.

0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Eleven point five and fifteen?

0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:53.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes? Do you think that was long enough? Now that's

0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:56.120
<v Speaker 1>a dumb question. You'd never think it's long enough.

0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:58.719
<v Speaker 2>It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was

0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:00.480
<v Speaker 2>set out for our case, I don't know if they

0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:03.399
<v Speaker 2>are set out like that for others. No, I don't

0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.720
<v Speaker 2>think it was long enough. The amount of charges eighteen charges,

0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:10.560
<v Speaker 2>some of them very very serious charges. My issue is

0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:12.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't trust for a minute that she will not

0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:16.120
<v Speaker 2>leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.

0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 2>And there are many that think.

0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Like that well, with the past history.

0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:23.560
<v Speaker 2>And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just

0:50:23.600 --> 0:50:25.960
<v Speaker 2>will do everything I can to make sure that wherever

0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:28.160
<v Speaker 2>she goes to live, the people there know she's not

0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:28.920
<v Speaker 2>a safe person.

0:50:29.440 --> 0:50:32.959
<v Speaker 1>I think that's fair enough. If people want to reach

0:50:33.000 --> 0:50:34.799
<v Speaker 1>out to you all the type of things that you're doing,

0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:37.360
<v Speaker 1>you said you're speaking up. Where where's the best place

0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:38.799
<v Speaker 1>to find you?

0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Instagram breaking the silence? Now is my name and TikTok

0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Nicole Meyer so easy? People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.

0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.

0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and

0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:55.479
<v Speaker 1>I was worried about you. Happen to take you through

0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.920
<v Speaker 1>reliving what's occurred. But I've walked away from this inspired.

0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:03.360
<v Speaker 1>Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people

0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:05.400
<v Speaker 1>react to that. There is a testament to the person

0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:08.560
<v Speaker 1>that you are, how hard you fought for justice. I

0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:10.919
<v Speaker 1>know how painful that can be, and it breaks many

0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:14.480
<v Speaker 1>a person trying to get justice. But you just continued

0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:18.080
<v Speaker 1>and hung in there, and you know you didn't get

0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:21.000
<v Speaker 1>the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I

0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:24.720
<v Speaker 1>think you've got justice in so many other ways, making

0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:28.520
<v Speaker 1>the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and

0:51:29.120 --> 0:51:31.719
<v Speaker 1>so full credit to you. Thank you, it's been a

0:51:31.760 --> 0:51:32.200
<v Speaker 1>great chack.

0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, thank you.

0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Cheers.