Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person has never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we
Speaker 1: spoke about the personal impact on her and the two
Speaker 1: sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa,
Speaker 1: and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her
Speaker 1: and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down
Speaker 1: her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her
Speaker 1: experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.
Speaker 1: As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have,
Speaker 1: but it's one I think is important to talk about.
Speaker 1: Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill. It's part two.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm still just processing all that you told
Speaker 1: us in part one and the battles that you had
Speaker 1: to go through and your determination to get a person
Speaker 1: just to be put before the courts. So we're talking
Speaker 1: about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you
Speaker 1: were attending as a student, and then your battle. So
Speaker 1: I think something like seventy five court appearances to get
Speaker 1: the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.
Speaker 1: I want to take it to that point in time now.
Speaker 1: So once you were notified about the extradition, I would
Speaker 1: imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you
Speaker 1: supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step
Speaker 1: in the right direction. But again that's just the start
Speaker 1: of the efforts to get justice. What happened after you
Speaker 1: were informed about the extradition.
Speaker 2: Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they
Speaker 2: did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.
Speaker 2: They can't give us an exact approximation of when and
Speaker 2: not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's
Speaker 2: on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't
Speaker 2: even know when she's in the sky. Like that was
Speaker 2: really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.
Speaker 2: It was I don't think anything major happened there made
Speaker 2: it been a couple mentions. The main thing that had
Speaker 2: to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper
Speaker 2: signed for extradition by the Justice minister. It had to
Speaker 2: happen now, that in itself is a process. And all
Speaker 2: we heard, and I'm going to go to the day
Speaker 2: that she arrived, all we heard was that it was
Speaker 2: a foot race literally because the skies were closing because
Speaker 2: of COVID ah right, and they had to get the
Speaker 2: paper signed and get her on that plane out of
Speaker 2: Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming
Speaker 2: to Australia from Israel. Pasted her flight. It was nothing
Speaker 2: short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane
Speaker 2: and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it,
Speaker 2: and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were
Speaker 2: not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her
Speaker 2: up and they put her on the plane bought her
Speaker 2: to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you
Speaker 2: are arrested on Australian soil. Was like the moment to
Speaker 2: say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.
Speaker 2: And all I remember of the night that she came
Speaker 2: back is because of that leaked photo from some random
Speaker 2: person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's
Speaker 2: on the plane. And then it was all the detectives,
Speaker 2: you know, the experts online trying to find which flight,
Speaker 2: and then it was all the news in the airport,
Speaker 2: but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport,
Speaker 2: and the reporters said all their masks on and they
Speaker 2: were standing by the window, and we had one very
Speaker 2: kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was
Speaker 2: a big part of our journey and she held her
Speaker 2: phone to the wall of the.
Speaker 1: Very crazy.
Speaker 2: I was on the live. My sisters were on the
Speaker 2: call as well. We're on what's that video? And we
Speaker 2: just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the
Speaker 2: whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.
Speaker 2: You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa,
Speaker 2: because I had the whole filming crew in my house
Speaker 2: filming me watching her land. It was a huge It
Speaker 2: was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical
Speaker 2: sense of her being back on the soil. It's still
Speaker 2: something I feel now. Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable,
Speaker 2: she felt like she was always evading and escaping. It
Speaker 2: felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that
Speaker 2: she's here. She can't escape anymore. She's here, She's on
Speaker 2: Australian soil. It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.
Speaker 2: And then the next morning I heard her voice for
Speaker 2: the first time because she was arranged. They go to
Speaker 2: court and they get you know, how do you plead
Speaker 2: or whatever words the judge says, and that was all
Speaker 2: the courts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?
Speaker 2: Closed? Everything online?
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here
Speaker 1: on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure
Speaker 1: you would have hung in there, but that would have
Speaker 1: been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.
Speaker 1: Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded. Bao kept
Speaker 1: in custody, Yes, okay. Were you in contact with the
Speaker 1: police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long
Speaker 1: that might take.
Speaker 2: So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp
Speaker 2: and the people that were needed with us, and we
Speaker 2: had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll
Speaker 2: be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September,
Speaker 2: and that was the first court appearance for us. So
Speaker 2: we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this
Speaker 2: is happening there, this is actually happening. I remember them
Speaker 2: saying at the time, absolutely no news. There is a
Speaker 2: gag out of the secondary lands on this country. You
Speaker 2: are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you
Speaker 2: cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.
Speaker 2: And that was it. We went utterly silent. So there
Speaker 2: was like one news crew that tried to follow me
Speaker 2: and try to get a statement fast the committal and
Speaker 2: they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.
Speaker 2: We actually couldn't say a word.
Speaker 1: Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID,
Speaker 2: so we to wear masks and we were like, oh,
Speaker 2: can we just take it off in the building, not
Speaker 2: to you get into the room. It was done remotely,
Speaker 2: like not in the court, orne in the opp's office,
Speaker 2: and we sat down for a couple of days, each
Speaker 2: of us giving our evidence. Only the defense lawyer the
Speaker 2: prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying
Speaker 2: to show, prove that this court can be given.
Speaker 1: And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process,
Speaker 1: but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.
Speaker 2: The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then
Speaker 2: that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision,
Speaker 2: which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I just found some journal
Speaker 2: notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got
Speaker 2: the notification that's been committed to trial. And how I
Speaker 2: felt then, did.
Speaker 1: You found some of your own journals? Tell us what
Speaker 1: were you thinking?
Speaker 2: It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad
Speaker 2: because it was like I had so much hope for
Speaker 2: justice and I was so excited for justice. It was
Speaker 2: tinged with sadness. But also I could see back in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was
Speaker 2: committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always
Speaker 2: a little bit of we had so many times it
Speaker 2: was almost and never happened that almost could even happen
Speaker 2: all the way to the day trial starts. So the
Speaker 2: fact that it was committed was incredible. It was committed
Speaker 2: for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day
Speaker 2: it was meant to start, strange star birth before it
Speaker 2: was pushed off the day before. Why the defense team
Speaker 2: and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions
Speaker 2: that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks
Speaker 2: they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge,
Speaker 2: I guess, did not have availability to allow for more
Speaker 2: pre trial conversations to happen. So trial was pushed off
Speaker 2: to February. That was a huge blow. We had all
Speaker 2: moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had
Speaker 2: all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a
Speaker 2: pushed off at such a late stage was crushing. It
Speaker 2: felt like it could not get any worse, And I
Speaker 2: know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.
Speaker 2: Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we
Speaker 2: can't control. It's the system, it works. We understand that,
Speaker 2: but it still is impactful regardless.
Speaker 1: I think we can't control it, but I think more
Speaker 1: effort could be done to keep them on track because
Speaker 1: I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and
Speaker 1: as you described it from a victim's point of view,
Speaker 1: your whole life is focused on this. You've rearranged your
Speaker 1: life and then it gets put off on short notice
Speaker 1: because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or
Speaker 1: even prosecutors need more time things like that. We've really
Speaker 1: got to be conscious of the impact that has on people,
Speaker 1: like what you're going through. So it's been delayed. It
Speaker 1: finally comes up the trial. It talk us through the
Speaker 1: emotions and what took place there.
Speaker 2: So because we now knew it was actually happening second
Speaker 2: time round, my sisters and I again moved out of
Speaker 2: home because we need to be fully focused. We cannot
Speaker 2: be a parent at the same time as giving evidence
Speaker 2: to the extent that we needed to. So we just
Speaker 2: moved to a quest near in South Bank so we
Speaker 2: can get to the city easy every day. And once
Speaker 2: this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle
Speaker 2: down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.
Speaker 2: Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner,
Speaker 2: our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere. And
Speaker 2: then it was day one and we were video like
Speaker 2: journaling the whole time. So we have videos of us
Speaker 2: three together that morning of the afternoon of how we
Speaker 2: felt post like we just there. And then it was like,
Speaker 2: we are going to walk in together. We are proud,
Speaker 2: we are going to walk with our backs up, and
Speaker 2: this is our moment to finally face the woman who
Speaker 2: has invaded our every waking moment for years and over
Speaker 2: a decade or two decades, including the abuse. And we're
Speaker 2: going to go and seek justice. We're going to do this.
Speaker 2: And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were
Speaker 2: all in the room, We all left the quest together.
Speaker 2: We walked to court. There was a huge camera crew
Speaker 2: outside taking pictures and everything like that. So it felt
Speaker 2: very surreal.
Speaker 1: Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or
Speaker 1: this was at another level again when it got to this, This.
Speaker 2: Was a higher level. But we had been so many
Speaker 2: years around media and even the ABC documentary that we
Speaker 2: did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew
Speaker 2: how to kind of like zona out, and we also
Speaker 2: knew how to boundaries. We also knew how to manage
Speaker 2: the media. So yes to one, No, we can do
Speaker 2: you after or can we all just have you together
Speaker 2: in one room so we can just see we had Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that. And
Speaker 2: also we couldn't talk as much as we would have
Speaker 2: loved to, We couldn't say a word. So we just
Speaker 2: walked right into court and went to level one in
Speaker 2: counter court.
Speaker 1: Making a statement, walking in proud and.
Speaker 2: With our family members all supporting us and coming with
Speaker 2: all our siblings came and we went and spoke with
Speaker 2: the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.
Speaker 1: Is that the first time you've seen her since she's
Speaker 1: been extra di either back to in person, so.
Speaker 2: This is a funny thing. Yeah, we actually asked her
Speaker 2: for a screen. So I felt, and I don't know
Speaker 2: if you can understand this, but the respect for the
Speaker 2: judge was huge. It was like heavy and deep in
Speaker 2: the room. So I felt it would be so disrespectful
Speaker 2: if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer,
Speaker 2: and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2: So I felt her and I heard her voice because
Speaker 2: she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.
Speaker 1: I want to see her.
Speaker 2: So they had to go set up a whole computer
Speaker 2: for her to be able to see me giving evidence
Speaker 2: because she couldn't see me physically. And they did that,
Speaker 2: and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, I looked at the jury. On day two,
Speaker 2: I slightly turned my chair. I was like, I'm not
Speaker 2: going through without staring her down. That's not happening. And
Speaker 2: she did this very side as she's walk turned around
Speaker 2: out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.
Speaker 2: Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep. But then
Speaker 2: on the third day I just didn't care anymore and
Speaker 2: I just fully turned around and looked at her right
Speaker 2: up and down and then turned back again.
Speaker 1: Absolutely it was.
Speaker 2: It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail,
Speaker 2: and I am free, and I can walk out this
Speaker 2: courtroom and join my family and my community.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can imagine how that must must feel, how
Speaker 1: empowering that must feel.
Speaker 2: It was very necessary for me to look at her
Speaker 2: because she loomed and she still does at time so
Speaker 2: big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.
Speaker 2: So I have had to see her and realize that
Speaker 2: I am here and you are there like there were.
Speaker 2: It was very necessary for my own healing and my
Speaker 2: own journey. I hadn't seen her in person since the
Speaker 2: day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening,
Speaker 2: So that that amount of time working around trying to
Speaker 2: bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because
Speaker 2: she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the
Speaker 2: camera crews. She was meant to come to court that
Speaker 2: day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's
Speaker 2: not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again. Right, Okay,
Speaker 2: So she had been attending in person until then and
Speaker 2: doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending
Speaker 2: to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.
Speaker 1: Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she
Speaker 1: played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.
Speaker 1: How long we were in the witness box giving.
Speaker 2: Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.
Speaker 1: Court's intimidating for anyone. I don't care what they say.
Speaker 1: If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting
Speaker 1: the witness box as stupid. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about. How
Speaker 1: did you find the experience?
Speaker 2: It feels like the whole court process is designed to
Speaker 2: make the victim feel like they've done something wrong. And
Speaker 2: that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered,
Speaker 2: we should feel we have a chance to say our
Speaker 2: whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which
Speaker 2: is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.
Speaker 2: And I walked in and said in the stand. As
Speaker 2: I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass
Speaker 2: of water, and it was just the feeling in the
Speaker 2: room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's
Speaker 2: like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the
Speaker 2: sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room,
Speaker 2: despite the fact that it was despite that I had
Speaker 2: to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.
Speaker 2: The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look
Speaker 2: at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even
Speaker 2: at the sentencing. I think judges have a right to
Speaker 2: be and they need to be unbiased and impartial. But
Speaker 2: we're humans and they can, and there have been judges
Speaker 2: they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down,
Speaker 2: or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean anything. That just means they're chronowledging that you are
Speaker 2: a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and
Speaker 2: you've come up to stand up and talk about it
Speaker 2: in the most clinical terms, which is really what I
Speaker 2: find what the stand did to me and I'm sure
Speaker 2: to my sisters into other victims as well. It can
Speaker 2: narrow down six and a half years of abuse to
Speaker 2: four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which
Speaker 2: is the whole seveny issues around. So it wasn't anything specific,
Speaker 2: and it can literally narrow even further to time whether
Speaker 2: exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant
Speaker 2: bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually
Speaker 2: this particular way and not that particular way, and it
Speaker 2: really boils it down to such a clinical nature. There's
Speaker 2: not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this
Speaker 2: type of woman and the control she had and the
Speaker 2: impact in every area, and how she was always around
Speaker 2: and there none of that was explained in a way
Speaker 2: that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.
Speaker 2: These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's
Speaker 2: what it does. And I understand, you've got to prove
Speaker 2: beyond reasonable doubts. You have to narrow down and really
Speaker 2: ask the hard questions and get right in there. But
Speaker 2: I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't
Speaker 2: give enough context around mulcut Lifer. Yes, around our background, yes,
Speaker 2: how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.
Speaker 2: And I also understand my story was extensive. She abused
Speaker 2: me hundreds of times. He got boiled down to only
Speaker 2: five charges given to me. I didn't really get a chance.
Speaker 2: I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to
Speaker 2: discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I
Speaker 2: walked out of three days not feeling that I did
Speaker 2: justice for myself. I didn't feel I had a chance
Speaker 2: to say my story. And I think that is the
Speaker 2: misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going
Speaker 2: to court. They think we're going to get up there
Speaker 2: and we're going to just it's going to all pour
Speaker 2: out and we can talk. And it's not it's so scripted,
Speaker 2: and it's so careful. And you say one word wrong mistrial,
Speaker 2: You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.
Speaker 1: And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?
Speaker 2: And and we are my sisters and I are people
Speaker 2: that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems
Speaker 2: and other different things that were going on in our
Speaker 2: lives and in Israel. My sister and I had attended
Speaker 2: a court case in America to support a victim there,
Speaker 2: so we were well aware of how it worked there.
Speaker 2: And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask,
Speaker 2: we knew what to say, we knew what to wear,
Speaker 2: we knew how to look. We felt confident. We were
Speaker 2: waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were
Speaker 2: very switched on. And still still it felt like I
Speaker 2: did not really have my chance to say my story.
Speaker 2: And the jury don't really know what Marco life had
Speaker 2: did to me.
Speaker 1: They just don't.
Speaker 2: They're walking away things. Was that really a rape or
Speaker 2: was that not really a rape? Well I'm not sure
Speaker 2: because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this,
Speaker 2: and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't
Speaker 2: know they're thinking, but this is all the different things
Speaker 2: I've thought since then.
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not
Speaker 1: the first person that's gott in the witness box and
Speaker 1: got out and felt that way. It's a shame that
Speaker 1: the courts doesn't allow. You know, We've got a system
Speaker 1: that set up. You know, people say it's good. I
Speaker 1: think it can always be improved, but I do understand
Speaker 1: what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box
Speaker 1: and not with the pressure that you're under in regards
Speaker 1: to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you,
Speaker 1: but get out of the witness box and think I
Speaker 1: wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've
Speaker 1: got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there thinking I could answer this if I was just
Speaker 1: allowed to talk and explain the situation. So the context
Speaker 1: is important. Another issue that you talk there. I think
Speaker 1: it is time that we change. And it's not the
Speaker 1: criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there,
Speaker 1: but judges in general, I think we should allow a
Speaker 1: little bit of humanity in the court. So I've seen
Speaker 1: it time and time again in murder trials at a
Speaker 1: high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity
Speaker 1: there for the victims. And I understand there needs to
Speaker 1: be an independence and you know, it's not about the
Speaker 1: emotion of it, it's about the facts. But a little
Speaker 1: bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there
Speaker 1: because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to
Speaker 1: the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate
Speaker 1: that the judge believes what the person is saying. Perhaps
Speaker 1: that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.
Speaker 1: The courts are there to set or to represent and
Speaker 1: provide justice for the community. I think we've got to
Speaker 1: make some adjustments.
Speaker 2: I think judges and general should have very specific trauma
Speaker 2: informed training for them specifically, and that is something that
Speaker 2: I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges
Speaker 2: can make some really awful comments that can really impact
Speaker 2: the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to
Speaker 2: a victim when they say something the way that they
Speaker 2: phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go
Speaker 2: through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.
Speaker 2: Now I don't think we had an awful judge. I
Speaker 2: think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very
Speaker 2: on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that
Speaker 2: defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect
Speaker 2: that job. Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect
Speaker 2: defense lawyers that they have a job to do. But
Speaker 2: they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing,
Speaker 2: the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending. They
Speaker 2: have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully,
Speaker 2: because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused
Speaker 2: and has worked so hard to be on that stand.
Speaker 2: So I think there needs to be a whole, a
Speaker 2: whole change with the way that the legal system works
Speaker 2: in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course
Speaker 2: family violence and other things. And that has to come
Speaker 2: with just some really specific training given to the judges,
Speaker 2: defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported
Speaker 2: through the process. And that is something I feel very
Speaker 2: passionately about and I hope that I can join and
Speaker 2: I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining
Speaker 2: a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed
Speaker 2: to allow victims to feel more supported and have more
Speaker 2: rights in the legal system.
Speaker 1: I think it's a very important to important thing. You
Speaker 1: don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.
Speaker 2: And many victims say that the core experience is an
Speaker 2: additional trauma. It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.
Speaker 1: You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.
Speaker 1: I agree, but some of them. Yeah, I give them
Speaker 1: the lad that you that there is a job, and
Speaker 1: a very important job. But I've seen defense that solicitors,
Speaker 1: barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.
Speaker 1: So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are
Speaker 1: hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling
Speaker 1: of the eyes and that type of thing. You're very
Speaker 1: much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box,
Speaker 1: and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.
Speaker 1: I think you said, by the time the jury came
Speaker 1: back after you gave evidence for three days, were you
Speaker 1: allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.
Speaker 2: Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because
Speaker 2: of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept
Speaker 2: doing until Dusting Ellie finished. No, and after that we
Speaker 2: were allowed to listen online. They preferred us not to
Speaker 2: be in the court room, right, as, are you going
Speaker 2: to stop me? Like I could prefer I know I can,
Speaker 2: but of course I respected them and I didn't go
Speaker 2: in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so we just like, yeah, most days we were in
Speaker 2: court and everyone listening on our own individual devices. The
Speaker 2: defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have
Speaker 2: to be in separate room. So on the first day
Speaker 2: we are all in separate room, and then we're like,
Speaker 2: stuff it, we're not going to talk. It's not a party.
Speaker 2: We're sitting to listen. We're listening in the same room
Speaker 2: in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay. So
Speaker 2: we did that. The social worker was amazing. She was
Speaker 2: with us most days, supporting us. There wasn't one time
Speaker 2: that there was a question. Every I thought it was
Speaker 2: a verdict. So it was like, oh, mad rush. Everyone
Speaker 2: went up to the court room and the prosecution and
Speaker 2: the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the
Speaker 2: judges like, I'm not waiting for them. He's like, they're
Speaker 2: in the room right next door. So we came in.
Speaker 2: It was just a question. But that was good. Really
Speaker 2: she got in.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now when it got to the jury has come back,
Speaker 1: where were you and how were you notified?
Speaker 2: My sisters were in court with eye. It was nine days.
Speaker 2: Everyone was on edge.
Speaker 1: So the jury was out for nine days.
Speaker 2: Nine days. The prosecution was on edge, the social worker
Speaker 2: was on edge, the police was on edge. We were
Speaker 2: in court every single day. There was news outside. You
Speaker 2: could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after
Speaker 2: day after day. First weekend came and we're like, surely,
Speaker 2: only it's going to happen on Monday. Now, next weekend came,
Speaker 2: We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like,
Speaker 2: it's going to be today. We're all going to dress
Speaker 2: and the same things we were on the first day
Speaker 2: of trial, because that's momentous for us. It's going to
Speaker 2: be today, And it was. We didn't know when at
Speaker 2: three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.
Speaker 2: The prosecutor called. I said, a verdicts in. I said,
Speaker 2: three o'clock. Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's
Speaker 2: filmed for the Docky. They allowed just one camera in
Speaker 2: to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.
Speaker 2: Everyone ran and met in the corridor. The prosecutor, the
Speaker 2: social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like,
Speaker 2: it's happening. It's happening. I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.
Speaker 2: I said to her, if I get not guilty and
Speaker 2: I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.
Speaker 2: I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I
Speaker 2: stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty,
Speaker 2: and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it,
Speaker 2: and you'll see it on the doco. It's there because
Speaker 2: I felt it. I don't know why. Sometimes you just
Speaker 2: have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply,
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to feel it. Yeah, I didn't
Speaker 2: want to feel it, but I did. And when we
Speaker 2: walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters. There
Speaker 2: was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet,
Speaker 2: it was like pin drop silence. And with a room
Speaker 2: pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense
Speaker 2: that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and
Speaker 2: anticipatory it was. And then the knock knock, and the
Speaker 2: judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury
Speaker 2: and then he says a couple of things and very short,
Speaker 2: but then he says and in regards to the verdict,
Speaker 2: if anyone is going to lose their composure or make
Speaker 2: a distraction, they can leave as well. And that's when
Speaker 2: I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because
Speaker 2: he's saying that to me or to one of us.
Speaker 2: Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.
Speaker 2: Not one jury member looked at us, not one. That
Speaker 2: is not a good sign sign anyone knows that. And
Speaker 2: we kept trying to catch their eye. We were right
Speaker 2: there and they were right there. They refused to look
Speaker 2: at us. And then the jury foreman got up and
Speaker 2: said not guilty. And it was just a shock to
Speaker 2: my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty,
Speaker 2: not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then guilty. And
Speaker 2: then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole
Speaker 2: cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty,
Speaker 2: even just one, she's guilty. She's not going to be
Speaker 2: going back to Israel today. It was like everyone took
Speaker 2: a breath, and then they just read there's a couple
Speaker 2: not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers,
Speaker 2: and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff
Speaker 2: and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks
Speaker 2: them for the service, tells them they don't have to
Speaker 2: do jury forever many year, more years. And then we
Speaker 2: all leave the room and go downstairs. And then there's
Speaker 2: like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just
Speaker 2: like not sure what I'm feeling. My sisters are broken
Speaker 2: harder for me, so they're in tears. I'm not in tears.
Speaker 2: I'm in shock. I'm in such shock. We go down
Speaker 2: to the room together. We spend a few minutes alone.
Speaker 2: Then the whole team comes in. They talk. I don't
Speaker 2: think I can remember anything they said. It was flying
Speaker 2: above my head. They all left the room. We know
Speaker 2: the news is waiting for us downstairs. We prepared for
Speaker 2: not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict. So we
Speaker 2: had our statements prepared that day. We prepared them knowing
Speaker 2: what the different outcomes might be. And my sisters were
Speaker 2: just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got
Speaker 2: to go. I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't,
Speaker 2: and I was the strong one for them. I stood
Speaker 2: there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.
Speaker 2: We can't keep them waiting. It's already five. We need
Speaker 2: to go. I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.
Speaker 2: And I just kept saying that. I don't know what strength
Speaker 2: I had at that moment to say that and not
Speaker 2: to collapse in my grief and just like not want
Speaker 2: to face the world, but I just I gave them
Speaker 2: strength that I was okay, that we will go outside,
Speaker 2: we will face the media, and we will do this.
Speaker 2: And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I
Speaker 2: was okay and we walked out.
Speaker 1: Amazing how you can react that way. And we'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that towards the end. So what
Speaker 1: we've got here a situation and people fully understand the
Speaker 1: three of you who have been united in this fight
Speaker 1: to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.
Speaker 1: And I know that you've described it other than I
Speaker 1: can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of
Speaker 1: a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it
Speaker 1: to come out, and the first lot is not guilty,
Speaker 1: not guilty, and then finally get guilty. Your sisters would
Speaker 1: have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they
Speaker 1: made have been proven at court, But the fact that
Speaker 1: they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the
Speaker 1: fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't
Speaker 1: take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you've prepared, your prepared your media statements. Yes, and that
Speaker 1: you've gone out there. How is that fronting the media
Speaker 1: after all these years? This is a long, as you said,
Speaker 1: over decades from the time the abuse until finally you
Speaker 1: get the words.
Speaker 2: It wasn't hard for me because I was still in
Speaker 2: that mode of I'm okay. Ellie and Dussy were a
Speaker 2: little bit more emotional. They were speaking because you could
Speaker 2: see they were feeling it. He answered a couple questions.
Speaker 2: Was over pretty fast. They followed us. We kept trying
Speaker 2: to walk away. They kept following, We kept trying to
Speaker 2: walk away, and then we're just kind of like like
Speaker 2: lost chicken. We're like, what do we do now? Where
Speaker 2: do we go? I think my sister's husband booked us
Speaker 2: a place to stay for the night, and we knew
Speaker 2: we were going to be together that night. And then
Speaker 2: I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us,
Speaker 2: so we did a bit with them and then kind
Speaker 2: of just like flitted away and we went back to
Speaker 2: where we were staying, and we had a lot of
Speaker 2: news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just
Speaker 2: not talking to anyone tonight. We actually can say that
Speaker 2: now we don't have to talk. We can talk to
Speaker 2: everyone tomorrow. We're not talking to anyone tonight. Then Ellie said, okay, fine,
Speaker 2: just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and
Speaker 2: it was the one that was like just not English
Speaker 2: second language. So we ended up just like bursting into
Speaker 2: laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing,
Speaker 2: and then trying to give the question back to her
Speaker 2: and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected,
Speaker 2: and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions,
Speaker 2: was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional,
Speaker 2: beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters
Speaker 2: the best And then one sister said that she's not
Speaker 2: after doing media the next day, she needs to break.
Speaker 2: So Ellie and I did the project and again this
Speaker 2: is all me, still running on a journal and still
Speaker 2: in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting,
Speaker 2: and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so
Speaker 2: I didn't have a chance to process any of it
Speaker 2: because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life
Speaker 2: normally is.
Speaker 1: Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and
Speaker 1: your kids did. How did they receive it? Do we
Speaker 1: get their mum and wife back? Now? Is that?
Speaker 2: I don't know if my kids felt that way. I
Speaker 2: think that I feel like my family because I wasn't
Speaker 2: talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of
Speaker 2: not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.
Speaker 2: And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and
Speaker 2: those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well,
Speaker 2: I was hardly there. I think I was hardly present
Speaker 2: most of that festival. I was dealing with the grief
Speaker 2: and the shock and the loss and all of that
Speaker 2: sadness that was coming up. But it was devastating. It
Speaker 2: was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.
Speaker 2: It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and
Speaker 2: I didn't get that justice.
Speaker 1: Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's
Speaker 1: got justice? And really, if it's you're in this together,
Speaker 1: but is it? Can you take any comfort from it?
Speaker 2: I can? But what a lot of victim survivors who
Speaker 2: don't do their statements in groups or any others I
Speaker 2: have got and not guilty will know that a lot
Speaker 2: of other steps to justice are denied. So when the
Speaker 2: plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there
Speaker 2: to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst
Speaker 2: day for me. That was the twenty eighth of June.
Speaker 2: And I will never forget that day. In a way,
Speaker 2: it's even worse than hearing.
Speaker 1: Not guilty, because you couldn't get.
Speaker 2: I was completely invalidated. I almost didn't feel like I
Speaker 2: should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give
Speaker 2: a victim of state, You're.
Speaker 1: Not real I'm gone.
Speaker 2: That's it. I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing,
Speaker 2: none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge
Speaker 2: for me, and that she was in prison because of
Speaker 2: something she did to me. So yes, comfort in the
Speaker 2: collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.
Speaker 1: I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just
Speaker 1: stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you
Speaker 1: said how driven you were for justice, and then just
Speaker 1: just not at that point in time.
Speaker 2: Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok,
Speaker 2: and it's my voice is My Justice. And that's literally
Speaker 2: been what I've used in the last two weeks because
Speaker 2: I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm
Speaker 2: not going to get justice. That even if a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did
Speaker 2: get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial,
Speaker 2: and they told me they can't because of the contamination
Speaker 2: and the high profile nature. They can't. So even if
Speaker 2: they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter. So I'm not
Speaker 2: going to get that chance for justice. So my voice
Speaker 2: is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.
Speaker 2: So I was very quiet for a couple of months,
Speaker 2: and I think my sisters told me after they were
Speaker 2: worried about me, that I would never recover and come
Speaker 2: out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids,
Speaker 2: but very quiet in any other sense. And then that's it.
Speaker 2: I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken
Speaker 2: to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National
Speaker 2: Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and
Speaker 2: Childhood Foundation. Started studying law this year. So I am
Speaker 2: just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail
Speaker 2: my life. Instead, I've switched it around and I've become
Speaker 2: a voice for survivors. I've spoken at many events. I've
Speaker 2: advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while
Speaker 2: I start studying law so that I can get into
Speaker 2: the system and help victims from the inside, not just
Speaker 2: from the advocacy space. So I really turned around that
Speaker 2: pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough,
Speaker 2: TikTok helped me a lot with that. I opened TikTok
Speaker 2: and just started talking and people started sharing. Started absolutely
Speaker 2: there's a whole incredible community of survivors there. The amount
Speaker 2: of particularly older generation, old of me. I just turned forty,
Speaker 2: disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that
Speaker 2: they were abused when they were younger is incredible. And
Speaker 2: I've created that space that people feel safe to share
Speaker 2: knowing that there's someone there that understands them. And I've
Speaker 2: met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians. I've
Speaker 2: invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give
Speaker 2: them the opportunity to be in a room full of
Speaker 2: survivors at an event. And I really have used my
Speaker 2: voice to get my own justice.
Speaker 1: That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how
Speaker 1: people and people that sit in this chair because I
Speaker 1: hear a lot of stories of different things. We're a
Speaker 1: set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing,
Speaker 1: but defines who you are, how you react after that,
Speaker 1: and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that
Speaker 1: you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.
Speaker 1: Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.
Speaker 1: Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder
Speaker 1: of three children in their community and we couldn't get
Speaker 1: it through the courts and constant battles to try and
Speaker 1: get justice. They've been fighting for over thirty years to
Speaker 1: get justice for the three children that have been murdered.
Speaker 1: She would often say to me, justice comes in in
Speaker 1: many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story,
Speaker 1: telling our people's story. And I always hung on to
Speaker 1: that that. I look at it from a policing point
Speaker 1: of view. Justice had to be served through the courts,
Speaker 1: but you are getting just in another way. You've been
Speaker 1: given a platform and you're using it, and you're using
Speaker 1: it to make a difference. And the person that committed
Speaker 1: these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in
Speaker 1: jail now and you're out here helping people. Yes, do
Speaker 1: you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.
Speaker 2: It's something that eats away at me. But I'm working
Speaker 2: through therapy and through understanding that.
Speaker 1: You're inter views in therapy.
Speaker 2: No definitely, no more.
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry I shouldn't know. That's totally part of it.
Speaker 1: But you've got to laugh.
Speaker 2: Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to
Speaker 2: me that because of our story and their family hearing
Speaker 2: about Markoleefer. Their family believed them finally after all these years,
Speaker 2: because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.
Speaker 2: So she said, do you take comfort from that? And
Speaker 2: I said, I do. I do, but I still have
Speaker 2: to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the
Speaker 2: not guilty part of it. But I am working so
Speaker 2: hard on that in everything, in every way. It's just
Speaker 2: something that will I think for a very very long time.
Speaker 2: I think when a perpetrator has had that much control
Speaker 2: and impact on my life as a Michael life I
Speaker 2: did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse
Speaker 2: all of that and to find myself and to realize
Speaker 2: that even if I'm still living in the community and
Speaker 2: still in the same area and I passed by the
Speaker 2: houses that she abused in or the school, I am
Speaker 2: safe now and I am the person that is not
Speaker 2: going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2: So it's a constant work in progress.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself
Speaker 1: being safe now that you're taking control of the situation
Speaker 1: and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me. I'm
Speaker 1: stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's
Speaker 1: really powerful messaging that you're getting across. Do you feel
Speaker 1: supported by the community and your community and family.
Speaker 2: Family, Absolutely, yep. Community I think has a lot a
Speaker 2: long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.
Speaker 2: I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual
Speaker 2: abuse and the shame. I think that a lot of
Speaker 2: people think that they know how to support survivors because
Speaker 2: they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that
Speaker 2: they're silent speaks so much more than one message does
Speaker 2: that it needs to really particularly in our community. The
Speaker 2: religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the
Speaker 2: leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how
Speaker 2: we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe
Speaker 2: to come forward because they know they won't be shamed
Speaker 2: or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently. So
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman
Speaker 2: can impact that change. Whether I am merit enough to
Speaker 2: see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but
Speaker 2: I hope that I can create a legacy that people
Speaker 2: can say a religious woman spoke out and still was
Speaker 2: able to stay connected and still in the community. We
Speaker 2: can do the same. We don't have to be so
Speaker 2: afraid that other people are going to look down at
Speaker 2: us and ostracize us. I will say that I have
Speaker 2: felt people distancing from me because of that is something
Speaker 2: that I have to live with, because of the choices
Speaker 2: that I made to come out and still be in
Speaker 2: the community. But I do not regret that. And the
Speaker 2: fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my
Speaker 2: children with so much joy and love and no fear
Speaker 2: and not the way that I was brought and just
Speaker 2: a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it
Speaker 2: might not be, but for me it is because it
Speaker 2: really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my
Speaker 2: children with my journey to justice. My second son, who's
Speaker 2: now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a
Speaker 2: school camp like as a youth leader in the winter,
Speaker 2: and he joked to me and he got back from
Speaker 2: camp that they were going to do in activity searching
Speaker 2: for Markolaefer. And he laughed at that, and I laughed
Speaker 2: at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.
Speaker 2: But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them,
Speaker 2: that they can say her name, that they can joke
Speaker 2: about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid
Speaker 2: to share that with me, knowing that I will still
Speaker 2: laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And
Speaker 2: that proves to me that I have not traumatized my
Speaker 2: children with what's happened to me. I've worked so hard
Speaker 2: all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that
Speaker 2: my children should not know what's happening. Yes, they've got
Speaker 2: a mom that runs for the dinner table to a
Speaker 2: phone call or runs out the house to go around
Speaker 2: the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what
Speaker 2: COVID hit. They did have to know a little bit more.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I still protected them, and
Speaker 2: I still am protect them. So it's really just a
Speaker 2: balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor,
Speaker 2: not about not giving them any details of the abuse.
Speaker 2: That this is the woman, the prison, this is the
Speaker 2: prison she's in. News comes out about you know about
Speaker 2: her here and there. I don't mind to share that
Speaker 2: with them a little bit, but that's it. So just
Speaker 2: a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.
Speaker 1: Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the
Speaker 1: way that you should live life, that you can come
Speaker 1: back from things, you can you know, you don't have
Speaker 1: to be broken, you can take control. Like I think
Speaker 1: it's inspirational. The fact that you've also stayed connected with
Speaker 1: your church and your community. That says something too, you like,
Speaker 1: I would imagine that. I'm not judging anyone that does that,
Speaker 1: but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves
Speaker 1: from the environment. The fact that you can stay in
Speaker 1: contact and still work within that environment and operate within
Speaker 1: that environment, I think that says a lot too.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.
Speaker 2: It's not something that's easy. There are times that I
Speaker 2: feel very let down, I think for a good year
Speaker 2: and a half two year, and still even now, I
Speaker 2: feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as
Speaker 2: a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole
Speaker 2: is incredible. I made a bonments for recently and I
Speaker 2: received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind
Speaker 2: of thing in a couple of years. This is what
Speaker 2: community is. It's beautiful, but at the same time that
Speaker 2: part of the community is amazing, that part is not.
Speaker 2: I wish that they would do the same celebrating or
Speaker 2: the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.
Speaker 2: And how can I create that change to happen so
Speaker 2: it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.
Speaker 2: I will talk about it in conversations. I'll say the
Speaker 2: premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say
Speaker 2: that because I'm going to put it into their faces.
Speaker 2: I'll post it on my WhatsApp status. You might not
Speaker 2: like it, and you will for sure not come, but
Speaker 2: I want you to know it's happening because we want
Speaker 2: to change. We want to impact change. My sisters and
Speaker 2: I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have
Speaker 2: conversations too. We have the visibility, but we want something
Speaker 2: to be happening from this visibility. We don't just want
Speaker 2: to share story for entertainment. And that's why we met
Speaker 2: with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can
Speaker 2: align with them and work with them and create impacting change.
Speaker 2: And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out,
Speaker 2: and I hope some of those changes can veer into
Speaker 2: my community as well, and I know it does. There
Speaker 2: was an author who was found out to be an abuser,
Speaker 2: a Jewish author overseas. I called all the three schools
Speaker 2: that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.
Speaker 2: And they're kids books that kids read. I read them
Speaker 2: as a teenager. My kids all read them. They loved
Speaker 2: him as an author, and they did. They threw out
Speaker 2: all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid
Speaker 2: to request that of them. So it's changed that needs
Speaker 2: to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.
Speaker 2: I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've
Speaker 1: talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile,
Speaker 1: worthwhile watching. After everything that you've been through and your
Speaker 1: sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does
Speaker 1: it feel to know that what you've been through is
Speaker 1: going to play out on the big screen with this
Speaker 1: documentary coming up.
Speaker 2: My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous
Speaker 2: for the documentary. It is very vulnerable, it is raw,
Speaker 2: it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster. It is
Speaker 2: ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey,
Speaker 2: and we filmed for five years. To have that reduced
Speaker 2: to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done
Speaker 2: so well and we are so hopeful that people see
Speaker 2: the story for the whole, the entirety of the story,
Speaker 2: not just any agenda. Abuse happens in every community, in
Speaker 2: every religion, in every country all over the world, and
Speaker 2: we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire
Speaker 2: others to do the same, and we can also impact
Speaker 2: change others are aware of what it looks like to
Speaker 2: be brought up in an abusive home and then be
Speaker 2: abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the
Speaker 1: courage to do that. I know one of the people
Speaker 1: behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to
Speaker 1: watch it. I think it'll be really powerful. As you described, yes,
Speaker 1: I think the fact that you are talking about it too,
Speaker 1: and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.
Speaker 1: That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk
Speaker 1: about when red flags are seen or just says an
Speaker 1: icky feel or whatever. Something doesn't feel right, people are
Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about it. I think the fact that you're
Speaker 1: coming out and talking about it and putting the light
Speaker 1: on it is important and it might prevent further things
Speaker 1: like this happening.
Speaker 2: I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary
Speaker 2: and seeing what went on in our case can cause
Speaker 2: people to think, Wow, that all went on under our
Speaker 2: noses and we didn't notice. Let's notice more if there's
Speaker 2: a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi
Speaker 2: lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on,
Speaker 2: whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if
Speaker 2: the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit
Speaker 2: suspicious and not appropriate for children. Go don't just blame
Speaker 2: the child, look further, find out what's going on in
Speaker 2: the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing,
Speaker 2: and start understanding more that every child is a world
Speaker 2: of their own, and if you don't notice, those children
Speaker 2: step through the cracks. And it's upon us as adults
Speaker 2: to notice the children in our lives.
Speaker 1: You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact
Speaker 1: statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you
Speaker 1: on the spot here. What would you want to say
Speaker 1: if she was sitting in the scene in the court
Speaker 1: and you could face it down, and what would you
Speaker 1: say there?
Speaker 2: I'll answer that in a minute. I did do a
Speaker 2: victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts. It is graphic,
Speaker 2: it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.
Speaker 2: And I did do it in seven parts, so seven
Speaker 2: minutes long. And if I would have had a chance
Speaker 2: to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would
Speaker 2: have been crying. But what I would say to her
Speaker 2: is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching,
Speaker 2: because you can't shy away from what you did to me.
Speaker 2: Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even
Speaker 2: a drop in the ocean of what you have done
Speaker 2: to me, and then explain to her the impact of
Speaker 2: all of that. But at the end to day, but
Speaker 2: you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.
Speaker 2: I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going
Speaker 2: to show you that what you have done to me
Speaker 2: is not going to break me and not going to
Speaker 2: impact me the way you think it did or you.
Speaker 2: It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.
Speaker 2: The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.
Speaker 2: It was like coming off her in waves. She stared
Speaker 2: down the judge, she stared down the jury. She stood
Speaker 2: in a way her body language was I've got this.
Speaker 2: And even the prison guy said to us she had
Speaker 2: her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that
Speaker 2: she's going to Israel that night. That's how confident she
Speaker 2: was and that's the confidence she ran the school. So
Speaker 2: for me to be able to say you did and
Speaker 2: list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a
Speaker 2: little chink in the armor that she has of confidence. No,
Speaker 2: you did all of that, and you're in jail because
Speaker 2: of that. And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.
Speaker 2: It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's
Speaker 2: very it's really heart entering.
Speaker 1: Powerful. Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the
Speaker 1: comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of
Speaker 1: course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself. There
Speaker 1: is something that I won't bog us down with it,
Speaker 1: but there was something that the judge made a comment
Speaker 1: that the type of situation that you found yourself in,
Speaker 1: so the evidence that you gave helped put into context
Speaker 1: what happened to your sisters as well. So the evidence
Speaker 1: that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay,
Speaker 1: well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred. So I
Speaker 1: think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: everything else you did both sides, going out of the
Speaker 1: Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing
Speaker 1: you made a difference at the trial too, So I
Speaker 1: don't think your evidence was ignored. They just who knows
Speaker 1: why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.
Speaker 1: I wish to make the following brief observations. There's been
Speaker 1: a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these
Speaker 1: offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as
Speaker 1: the victim impact statements were not made until after the
Speaker 1: jury convicted Miss Lifer. The victims have been able to
Speaker 1: address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on
Speaker 1: them during the entire period. For each of them, it
Speaker 1: has been profound and life changing. What they have described
Speaker 1: comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of
Speaker 1: the offending. Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the
Speaker 1: serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or
Speaker 1: vulnerable has. To the extent that the victims feel a
Speaker 1: personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they
Speaker 1: should not. They were completely innocent victims of the predatory
Speaker 1: behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she
Speaker 1: alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the judge got it. Yeah, it's not about the victims.
Speaker 1: It's not about victim shame. It's one person to blame
Speaker 1: blame for this whole thing. Two. Unfortunately, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of victims. Yeah, that they have been through similar situations
Speaker 1: as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice
Speaker 1: like you had to fight for justice. What message would
Speaker 1: you give to them if they're feeling like they're not
Speaker 1: going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a
Speaker 1: brick wall basically and just fighting the system. What sort
Speaker 1: of advice? What things would you say to them?
Speaker 2: I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even
Speaker 2: though I didn't get justice. I believe that every single
Speaker 2: time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength
Speaker 2: to go to court. They are forcing the abuser to
Speaker 2: be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't
Speaker 2: result in it guilty plea. So for anyone that has
Speaker 2: a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.
Speaker 2: Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them
Speaker 2: bring the predators and abusers to justice.
Speaker 1: So don't give up good advice. How's your life now?
Speaker 1: You've talked about what you're doing. How are you within
Speaker 1: yourself after being through because what you've been through is
Speaker 1: terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting,
Speaker 1: how do you look at life now? That's probably a
Speaker 1: better question.
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting for me because I think because
Speaker 2: of all the time I've been through my life, childhood
Speaker 2: and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe
Speaker 2: state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict
Speaker 2: broke that it caused this emotion to come out because
Speaker 2: it was that impactful, And since then I would say
Speaker 2: that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really
Speaker 2: difficult stuff. And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because
Speaker 2: I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had
Speaker 2: did abuse me. Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered
Speaker 2: so much more of what she's done. It's becoming clearer
Speaker 2: and clearer to me. It means obviously, I'm mentally able
Speaker 2: to remember a lot more and able to understand the
Speaker 2: impact and the depth of the level of her abuse
Speaker 2: and how evil she was, and then work through it
Speaker 2: in therapy, so coming out the other side. So I
Speaker 2: have hope that one day soon she will not be
Speaker 2: the first thing I think of and the last thing
Speaker 2: I think of every day, which does still happen just
Speaker 2: because of the nature of the space I'm in and
Speaker 2: the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.
Speaker 2: There has been maybe two moments in the last year
Speaker 2: where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had
Speaker 2: an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't
Speaker 2: the first thing that that was in my mind, or
Speaker 2: she wasn't existent at all. And that's hope is hope,
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.
Speaker 1: She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen
Speaker 1: years since.
Speaker 2: Eleven point five and fifteen?
Speaker 1: Yes? Do you think that was long enough? Now that's
Speaker 1: a dumb question. You'd never think it's long enough.
Speaker 2: It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was
Speaker 2: set out for our case, I don't know if they
Speaker 2: are set out like that for others. No, I don't
Speaker 2: think it was long enough. The amount of charges eighteen charges,
Speaker 2: some of them very very serious charges. My issue is
Speaker 2: I don't trust for a minute that she will not
Speaker 2: leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.
Speaker 2: And there are many that think.
Speaker 1: Like that well, with the past history.
Speaker 2: And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just
Speaker 2: will do everything I can to make sure that wherever
Speaker 2: she goes to live, the people there know she's not
Speaker 2: a safe person.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair enough. If people want to reach
Speaker 1: out to you all the type of things that you're doing,
Speaker 1: you said you're speaking up. Where where's the best place
Speaker 1: to find you?
Speaker 2: Instagram breaking the silence? Now is my name and TikTok
Speaker 2: Nicole Meyer so easy? People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and
Speaker 1: I was worried about you. Happen to take you through
Speaker 1: reliving what's occurred. But I've walked away from this inspired.
Speaker 1: Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people
Speaker 1: react to that. There is a testament to the person
Speaker 1: that you are, how hard you fought for justice. I
Speaker 1: know how painful that can be, and it breaks many
Speaker 1: a person trying to get justice. But you just continued
Speaker 1: and hung in there, and you know you didn't get
Speaker 1: the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I
Speaker 1: think you've got justice in so many other ways, making
Speaker 1: the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and
Speaker 1: so full credit to you. Thank you, it's been a
Speaker 1: great chack.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: Cheers.