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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we

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Speaker 1: spoke about the personal impact on her and the two

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Speaker 1: sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa,

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Speaker 1: and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her

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Speaker 1: and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down

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Speaker 1: her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her

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Speaker 1: experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.

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Speaker 1: As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have,

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Speaker 1: but it's one I think is important to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill. It's part two.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm still just processing all that you told

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Speaker 1: us in part one and the battles that you had

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Speaker 1: to go through and your determination to get a person

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Speaker 1: just to be put before the courts. So we're talking

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Speaker 1: about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you

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Speaker 1: were attending as a student, and then your battle. So

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Speaker 1: I think something like seventy five court appearances to get

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Speaker 1: the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.

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Speaker 1: I want to take it to that point in time now.

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Speaker 1: So once you were notified about the extradition, I would

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Speaker 1: imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you

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Speaker 1: supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. But again that's just the start

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Speaker 1: of the efforts to get justice. What happened after you

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Speaker 1: were informed about the extradition.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they

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Speaker 2: did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.

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Speaker 2: They can't give us an exact approximation of when and

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Speaker 2: not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's

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Speaker 2: on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't

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Speaker 2: even know when she's in the sky. Like that was

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Speaker 2: really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.

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Speaker 2: It was I don't think anything major happened there made

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Speaker 2: it been a couple mentions. The main thing that had

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Speaker 2: to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper

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Speaker 2: signed for extradition by the Justice minister. It had to

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Speaker 2: happen now, that in itself is a process. And all

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Speaker 2: we heard, and I'm going to go to the day

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Speaker 2: that she arrived, all we heard was that it was

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Speaker 2: a foot race literally because the skies were closing because

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Speaker 2: of COVID ah right, and they had to get the

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Speaker 2: paper signed and get her on that plane out of

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Speaker 2: Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming

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Speaker 2: to Australia from Israel. Pasted her flight. It was nothing

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Speaker 2: short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane

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Speaker 2: and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it,

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Speaker 2: and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were

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Speaker 2: not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her

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Speaker 2: up and they put her on the plane bought her

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Speaker 2: to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you

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Speaker 2: are arrested on Australian soil. Was like the moment to

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Speaker 2: say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.

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Speaker 2: And all I remember of the night that she came

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Speaker 2: back is because of that leaked photo from some random

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Speaker 2: person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's

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Speaker 2: on the plane. And then it was all the detectives,

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Speaker 2: you know, the experts online trying to find which flight,

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Speaker 2: and then it was all the news in the airport,

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Speaker 2: but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport,

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Speaker 2: and the reporters said all their masks on and they

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Speaker 2: were standing by the window, and we had one very

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Speaker 2: kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was

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Speaker 2: a big part of our journey and she held her

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Speaker 2: phone to the wall of the.

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Speaker 1: Very crazy.

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Speaker 2: I was on the live. My sisters were on the

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Speaker 2: call as well. We're on what's that video? And we

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Speaker 2: just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the

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Speaker 2: whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.

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Speaker 2: You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa,

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Speaker 2: because I had the whole filming crew in my house

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Speaker 2: filming me watching her land. It was a huge It

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Speaker 2: was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical

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Speaker 2: sense of her being back on the soil. It's still

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Speaker 2: something I feel now. Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable,

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Speaker 2: she felt like she was always evading and escaping. It

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Speaker 2: felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that

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Speaker 2: she's here. She can't escape anymore. She's here, She's on

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Speaker 2: Australian soil. It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.

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Speaker 2: And then the next morning I heard her voice for

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Speaker 2: the first time because she was arranged. They go to

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Speaker 2: court and they get you know, how do you plead

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Speaker 2: or whatever words the judge says, and that was all

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Speaker 2: the courts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?

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Speaker 2: Closed? Everything online?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here

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Speaker 1: on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you would have hung in there, but that would have

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Speaker 1: been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.

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Speaker 1: Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded. Bao kept

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Speaker 1: in custody, Yes, okay. Were you in contact with the

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Speaker 1: police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long

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Speaker 1: that might take.

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Speaker 2: So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp

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Speaker 2: and the people that were needed with us, and we

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Speaker 2: had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll

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Speaker 2: be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September,

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Speaker 2: and that was the first court appearance for us. So

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Speaker 2: we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this

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Speaker 2: is happening there, this is actually happening. I remember them

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Speaker 2: saying at the time, absolutely no news. There is a

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Speaker 2: gag out of the secondary lands on this country. You

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Speaker 2: are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you

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Speaker 2: cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.

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Speaker 2: And that was it. We went utterly silent. So there

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Speaker 2: was like one news crew that tried to follow me

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Speaker 2: and try to get a statement fast the committal and

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Speaker 2: they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.

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Speaker 2: We actually couldn't say a word.

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Speaker 1: Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID,

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Speaker 2: so we to wear masks and we were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: can we just take it off in the building, not

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Speaker 2: to you get into the room. It was done remotely,

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Speaker 2: like not in the court, orne in the opp's office,

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Speaker 2: and we sat down for a couple of days, each

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Speaker 2: of us giving our evidence. Only the defense lawyer the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying

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Speaker 2: to show, prove that this court can be given.

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Speaker 1: And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process,

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Speaker 1: but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.

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Speaker 2: The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then

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Speaker 2: that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision,

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Speaker 2: which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, I just found some journal

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Speaker 2: notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got

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Speaker 2: the notification that's been committed to trial. And how I

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Speaker 2: felt then, did.

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Speaker 1: You found some of your own journals? Tell us what

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Speaker 1: were you thinking?

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Speaker 2: It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad

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Speaker 2: because it was like I had so much hope for

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Speaker 2: justice and I was so excited for justice. It was

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Speaker 2: tinged with sadness. But also I could see back in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was

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Speaker 2: committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always

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Speaker 2: a little bit of we had so many times it

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Speaker 2: was almost and never happened that almost could even happen

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Speaker 2: all the way to the day trial starts. So the

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Speaker 2: fact that it was committed was incredible. It was committed

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Speaker 2: for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day

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Speaker 2: it was meant to start, strange star birth before it

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Speaker 2: was pushed off the day before. Why the defense team

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Speaker 2: and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions

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Speaker 2: that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks

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Speaker 2: they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge,

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Speaker 2: I guess, did not have availability to allow for more

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Speaker 2: pre trial conversations to happen. So trial was pushed off

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Speaker 2: to February. That was a huge blow. We had all

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Speaker 2: moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had

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Speaker 2: all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a

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Speaker 2: pushed off at such a late stage was crushing. It

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Speaker 2: felt like it could not get any worse, And I

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Speaker 2: know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we

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Speaker 2: can't control. It's the system, it works. We understand that,

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Speaker 2: but it still is impactful regardless.

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Speaker 1: I think we can't control it, but I think more

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Speaker 1: effort could be done to keep them on track because

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Speaker 1: I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and

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Speaker 1: as you described it from a victim's point of view,

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Speaker 1: your whole life is focused on this. You've rearranged your

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Speaker 1: life and then it gets put off on short notice

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Speaker 1: because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or

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Speaker 1: even prosecutors need more time things like that. We've really

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Speaker 1: got to be conscious of the impact that has on people,

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Speaker 1: like what you're going through. So it's been delayed. It

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Speaker 1: finally comes up the trial. It talk us through the

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Speaker 1: emotions and what took place there.

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Speaker 2: So because we now knew it was actually happening second

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Speaker 2: time round, my sisters and I again moved out of

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Speaker 2: home because we need to be fully focused. We cannot

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Speaker 2: be a parent at the same time as giving evidence

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Speaker 2: to the extent that we needed to. So we just

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Speaker 2: moved to a quest near in South Bank so we

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Speaker 2: can get to the city easy every day. And once

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Speaker 2: this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle

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Speaker 2: down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.

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Speaker 2: Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner,

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Speaker 2: our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere. And

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Speaker 2: then it was day one and we were video like

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Speaker 2: journaling the whole time. So we have videos of us

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Speaker 2: three together that morning of the afternoon of how we

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Speaker 2: felt post like we just there. And then it was like,

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Speaker 2: we are going to walk in together. We are proud,

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Speaker 2: we are going to walk with our backs up, and

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Speaker 2: this is our moment to finally face the woman who

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Speaker 2: has invaded our every waking moment for years and over

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Speaker 2: a decade or two decades, including the abuse. And we're

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Speaker 2: going to go and seek justice. We're going to do this.

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Speaker 2: And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were

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Speaker 2: all in the room, We all left the quest together.

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Speaker 2: We walked to court. There was a huge camera crew

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Speaker 2: outside taking pictures and everything like that. So it felt

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Speaker 2: very surreal.

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Speaker 1: Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or

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Speaker 1: this was at another level again when it got to this, This.

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Speaker 2: Was a higher level. But we had been so many

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Speaker 2: years around media and even the ABC documentary that we

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Speaker 2: did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew

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Speaker 2: how to kind of like zona out, and we also

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Speaker 2: knew how to boundaries. We also knew how to manage

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Speaker 2: the media. So yes to one, No, we can do

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Speaker 2: you after or can we all just have you together

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Speaker 2: in one room so we can just see we had Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that. And

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Speaker 2: also we couldn't talk as much as we would have

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Speaker 2: loved to, We couldn't say a word. So we just

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Speaker 2: walked right into court and went to level one in

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Speaker 2: counter court.

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Speaker 1: Making a statement, walking in proud and.

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Speaker 2: With our family members all supporting us and coming with

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Speaker 2: all our siblings came and we went and spoke with

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Speaker 2: the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.

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Speaker 1: Is that the first time you've seen her since she's

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Speaker 1: been extra di either back to in person, so.

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Speaker 2: This is a funny thing. Yeah, we actually asked her

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Speaker 2: for a screen. So I felt, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you can understand this, but the respect for the

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Speaker 2: judge was huge. It was like heavy and deep in

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Speaker 2: the room. So I felt it would be so disrespectful

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Speaker 2: if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer,

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Speaker 2: and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: So I felt her and I heard her voice because

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Speaker 2: she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.

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Speaker 1: I want to see her.

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Speaker 2: So they had to go set up a whole computer

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Speaker 2: for her to be able to see me giving evidence

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Speaker 2: because she couldn't see me physically. And they did that,

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Speaker 2: and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor, I looked at the jury. On day two,

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Speaker 2: I slightly turned my chair. I was like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going through without staring her down. That's not happening. And

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Speaker 2: she did this very side as she's walk turned around

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Speaker 2: out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.

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Speaker 2: Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep. But then

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Speaker 2: on the third day I just didn't care anymore and

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Speaker 2: I just fully turned around and looked at her right

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Speaker 2: up and down and then turned back again.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely it was.

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Speaker 2: It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail,

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Speaker 2: and I am free, and I can walk out this

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Speaker 2: courtroom and join my family and my community.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I can imagine how that must must feel, how

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Speaker 1: empowering that must feel.

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Speaker 2: It was very necessary for me to look at her

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Speaker 2: because she loomed and she still does at time so

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Speaker 2: big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.

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Speaker 2: So I have had to see her and realize that

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Speaker 2: I am here and you are there like there were.

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Speaker 2: It was very necessary for my own healing and my

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Speaker 2: own journey. I hadn't seen her in person since the

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Speaker 2: day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening,

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Speaker 2: So that that amount of time working around trying to

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Speaker 2: bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because

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Speaker 2: she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the

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Speaker 2: camera crews. She was meant to come to court that

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Speaker 2: day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's

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Speaker 2: not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: So she had been attending in person until then and

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Speaker 2: doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending

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Speaker 2: to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she

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Speaker 1: played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.

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Speaker 1: How long we were in the witness box giving.

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Speaker 2: Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.

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Speaker 1: Court's intimidating for anyone. I don't care what they say.

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Speaker 1: If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting

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Speaker 1: the witness box as stupid. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about. How

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Speaker 1: did you find the experience?

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Speaker 2: It feels like the whole court process is designed to

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Speaker 2: make the victim feel like they've done something wrong. And

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Speaker 2: that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered,

290
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Speaker 2: we should feel we have a chance to say our

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Speaker 2: whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which

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Speaker 2: is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.

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Speaker 2: And I walked in and said in the stand. As

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Speaker 2: I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass

295
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Speaker 2: of water, and it was just the feeling in the

296
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Speaker 2: room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's

297
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Speaker 2: like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the

298
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Speaker 2: sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room,

299
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Speaker 2: despite the fact that it was despite that I had

300
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Speaker 2: to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.

301
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Speaker 2: The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me,

302
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Speaker 2: and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look

303
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Speaker 2: at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even

304
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Speaker 2: at the sentencing. I think judges have a right to

305
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Speaker 2: be and they need to be unbiased and impartial. But

306
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Speaker 2: we're humans and they can, and there have been judges

307
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Speaker 2: they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down,

308
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Speaker 2: or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean anything. That just means they're chronowledging that you are

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Speaker 2: a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and

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Speaker 2: you've come up to stand up and talk about it

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Speaker 2: in the most clinical terms, which is really what I

313
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Speaker 2: find what the stand did to me and I'm sure

314
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Speaker 2: to my sisters into other victims as well. It can

315
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Speaker 2: narrow down six and a half years of abuse to

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Speaker 2: four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which

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Speaker 2: is the whole seveny issues around. So it wasn't anything specific,

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Speaker 2: and it can literally narrow even further to time whether

319
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Speaker 2: exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant

320
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Speaker 2: bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually

321
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Speaker 2: this particular way and not that particular way, and it

322
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Speaker 2: really boils it down to such a clinical nature. There's

323
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Speaker 2: not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this

324
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Speaker 2: type of woman and the control she had and the

325
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Speaker 2: impact in every area, and how she was always around

326
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Speaker 2: and there none of that was explained in a way

327
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Speaker 2: that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.

328
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Speaker 2: These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's

329
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Speaker 2: what it does. And I understand, you've got to prove

330
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Speaker 2: beyond reasonable doubts. You have to narrow down and really

331
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Speaker 2: ask the hard questions and get right in there. But

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Speaker 2: I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't

333
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Speaker 2: give enough context around mulcut Lifer. Yes, around our background, yes,

334
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Speaker 2: how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.

335
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Speaker 2: And I also understand my story was extensive. She abused

336
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Speaker 2: me hundreds of times. He got boiled down to only

337
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Speaker 2: five charges given to me. I didn't really get a chance.

338
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Speaker 2: I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to

339
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 2: discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I

340
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 2: walked out of three days not feeling that I did

341
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Speaker 2: justice for myself. I didn't feel I had a chance

342
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Speaker 2: to say my story. And I think that is the

343
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Speaker 2: misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going

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Speaker 2: to court. They think we're going to get up there

345
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Speaker 2: and we're going to just it's going to all pour

346
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Speaker 2: out and we can talk. And it's not it's so scripted,

347
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Speaker 2: and it's so careful. And you say one word wrong mistrial,

348
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Speaker 2: You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.

349
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Speaker 1: And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?

350
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Speaker 2: And and we are my sisters and I are people

351
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Speaker 2: that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems

352
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Speaker 2: and other different things that were going on in our

353
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Speaker 2: lives and in Israel. My sister and I had attended

354
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Speaker 2: a court case in America to support a victim there,

355
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Speaker 2: so we were well aware of how it worked there.

356
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Speaker 2: And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask,

357
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Speaker 2: we knew what to say, we knew what to wear,

358
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Speaker 2: we knew how to look. We felt confident. We were

359
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 2: waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were

360
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 2: very switched on. And still still it felt like I

361
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: did not really have my chance to say my story.

362
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 2: And the jury don't really know what Marco life had

363
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 2: did to me.

364
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Speaker 1: They just don't.

365
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 2: They're walking away things. Was that really a rape or

366
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,440
Speaker 2: was that not really a rape? Well I'm not sure

367
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 2: because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this,

368
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 2: and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't

369
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 2: know they're thinking, but this is all the different things

370
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Speaker 2: I've thought since then.

371
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not

372
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Speaker 1: the first person that's gott in the witness box and

373
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Speaker 1: got out and felt that way. It's a shame that

374
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Speaker 1: the courts doesn't allow. You know, We've got a system

375
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 1: that set up. You know, people say it's good. I

376
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: think it can always be improved, but I do understand

377
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 1: what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box

378
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Speaker 1: and not with the pressure that you're under in regards

379
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 1: to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you,

380
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,719
Speaker 1: but get out of the witness box and think I

381
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 1: wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've

382
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 1: got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting

383
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Speaker 1: there thinking I could answer this if I was just

384
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Speaker 1: allowed to talk and explain the situation. So the context

385
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 1: is important. Another issue that you talk there. I think

386
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: it is time that we change. And it's not the

387
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 1: criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there,

388
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: but judges in general, I think we should allow a

389
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,440
Speaker 1: little bit of humanity in the court. So I've seen

390
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: it time and time again in murder trials at a

391
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity

392
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 1: there for the victims. And I understand there needs to

393
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,240
Speaker 1: be an independence and you know, it's not about the

394
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,920
Speaker 1: emotion of it, it's about the facts. But a little

395
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.

396
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there

397
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 1: because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to

398
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate

399
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: that the judge believes what the person is saying. Perhaps

400
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.

401
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: The courts are there to set or to represent and

402
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 1: provide justice for the community. I think we've got to

403
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,120
Speaker 1: make some adjustments.

404
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 2: I think judges and general should have very specific trauma

405
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,959
Speaker 2: informed training for them specifically, and that is something that

406
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 2: I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges

407
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 2: can make some really awful comments that can really impact

408
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,199
Speaker 2: the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to

409
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: a victim when they say something the way that they

410
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 2: phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go

411
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 2: through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.

412
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 2: Now I don't think we had an awful judge. I

413
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 2: think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very

414
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,640
Speaker 2: on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that

415
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 2: defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect

416
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 2: that job. Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect

417
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: defense lawyers that they have a job to do. But

418
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing,

419
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 2: the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending. They

420
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 2: have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully,

421
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 2: because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused

422
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: and has worked so hard to be on that stand.

423
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 2: So I think there needs to be a whole, a

424
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 2: whole change with the way that the legal system works

425
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 2: in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course

426
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 2: family violence and other things. And that has to come

427
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 2: with just some really specific training given to the judges,

428
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 2: defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported

429
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 2: through the process. And that is something I feel very

430
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,719
Speaker 2: passionately about and I hope that I can join and

431
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 2: I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining

432
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,120
Speaker 2: a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed

433
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 2: to allow victims to feel more supported and have more

434
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 2: rights in the legal system.

435
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 1: I think it's a very important to important thing. You

436
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 1: don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.

437
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,159
Speaker 2: And many victims say that the core experience is an

438
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: additional trauma. It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.

439
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.

440
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 1: I agree, but some of them. Yeah, I give them

441
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: the lad that you that there is a job, and

442
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 1: a very important job. But I've seen defense that solicitors,

443
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.

444
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 1: So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.

445
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are

446
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling

447
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: of the eyes and that type of thing. You're very

448
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box,

449
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you. Yeah.

450
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

451
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,159
Speaker 1: The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.

452
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: I think you said, by the time the jury came

453
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 1: back after you gave evidence for three days, were you

454
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.

455
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because

456
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept

457
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: doing until Dusting Ellie finished. No, and after that we

458
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: were allowed to listen online. They preferred us not to

459
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 2: be in the court room, right, as, are you going

460
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: to stop me? Like I could prefer I know I can,

461
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 2: but of course I respected them and I didn't go

462
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 2: in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful. Yeah,

463
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 2: so we just like, yeah, most days we were in

464
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: court and everyone listening on our own individual devices. The

465
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 2: defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have

466
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: to be in separate room. So on the first day

467
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: we are all in separate room, and then we're like,

468
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: stuff it, we're not going to talk. It's not a party.

469
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 2: We're sitting to listen. We're listening in the same room

470
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 2: in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay. So

471
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: we did that. The social worker was amazing. She was

472
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: with us most days, supporting us. There wasn't one time

473
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: that there was a question. Every I thought it was

474
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: a verdict. So it was like, oh, mad rush. Everyone

475
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: went up to the court room and the prosecution and

476
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 2: the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the

477
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 2: judges like, I'm not waiting for them. He's like, they're

478
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: in the room right next door. So we came in.

479
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: It was just a question. But that was good. Really

480
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: she got in.

481
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: Okay. Now when it got to the jury has come back,

482
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: where were you and how were you notified?

483
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: My sisters were in court with eye. It was nine days.

484
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: Everyone was on edge.

485
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: So the jury was out for nine days.

486
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: Nine days. The prosecution was on edge, the social worker

487
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 2: was on edge, the police was on edge. We were

488
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: in court every single day. There was news outside. You

489
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after

490
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 2: day after day. First weekend came and we're like, surely,

491
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: only it's going to happen on Monday. Now, next weekend came,

492
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like,

493
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: it's going to be today. We're all going to dress

494
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 2: and the same things we were on the first day

495
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: of trial, because that's momentous for us. It's going to

496
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,479
Speaker 2: be today, And it was. We didn't know when at

497
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.

498
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 2: The prosecutor called. I said, a verdicts in. I said,

499
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: three o'clock. Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's

500
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 2: filmed for the Docky. They allowed just one camera in

501
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.

502
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: Everyone ran and met in the corridor. The prosecutor, the

503
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like,

504
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: it's happening. It's happening. I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.

505
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: I said to her, if I get not guilty and

506
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.

507
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I

508
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty,

509
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it,

510
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 2: and you'll see it on the doco. It's there because

511
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: I felt it. I don't know why. Sometimes you just

512
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply,

513
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to feel it. Yeah, I didn't

514
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: want to feel it, but I did. And when we

515
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters. There

516
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet,

517
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: it was like pin drop silence. And with a room

518
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense

519
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and

520
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: anticipatory it was. And then the knock knock, and the

521
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury

522
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: and then he says a couple of things and very short,

523
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 2: but then he says and in regards to the verdict,

524
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: if anyone is going to lose their composure or make

525
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: a distraction, they can leave as well. And that's when

526
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 2: I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because

527
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: he's saying that to me or to one of us.

528
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 2: Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.

529
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: Not one jury member looked at us, not one. That

530
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: is not a good sign sign anyone knows that. And

531
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: we kept trying to catch their eye. We were right

532
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: there and they were right there. They refused to look

533
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: at us. And then the jury foreman got up and

534
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: said not guilty. And it was just a shock to

535
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty,

536
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then guilty. And

537
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole

538
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty,

539
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: even just one, she's guilty. She's not going to be

540
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: going back to Israel today. It was like everyone took

541
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: a breath, and then they just read there's a couple

542
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers,

543
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff

544
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks

545
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: them for the service, tells them they don't have to

546
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: do jury forever many year, more years. And then we

547
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: all leave the room and go downstairs. And then there's

548
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 2: like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just

549
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: like not sure what I'm feeling. My sisters are broken

550
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: harder for me, so they're in tears. I'm not in tears.

551
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: I'm in shock. I'm in such shock. We go down

552
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: to the room together. We spend a few minutes alone.

553
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: Then the whole team comes in. They talk. I don't

554
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: think I can remember anything they said. It was flying

555
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: above my head. They all left the room. We know

556
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: the news is waiting for us downstairs. We prepared for

557
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict. So we

558
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: had our statements prepared that day. We prepared them knowing

559
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: what the different outcomes might be. And my sisters were

560
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 2: just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got

561
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: to go. I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't,

562
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: and I was the strong one for them. I stood

563
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.

564
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: We can't keep them waiting. It's already five. We need

565
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: to go. I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.

566
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: And I just kept saying that. I don't know what strength

567
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: I had at that moment to say that and not

568
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: to collapse in my grief and just like not want

569
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: to face the world, but I just I gave them

570
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: strength that I was okay, that we will go outside,

571
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: we will face the media, and we will do this.

572
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I

573
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: was okay and we walked out.

574
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: Amazing how you can react that way. And we'll talk

575
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about that towards the end. So what

576
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: we've got here a situation and people fully understand the

577
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: three of you who have been united in this fight

578
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.

579
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: And I know that you've described it other than I

580
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of

581
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it

582
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: to come out, and the first lot is not guilty,

583
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: not guilty, and then finally get guilty. Your sisters would

584
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they

585
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: made have been proven at court, But the fact that

586
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the

587
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't

588
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you. Yeah, okay,

589
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: you've prepared, your prepared your media statements. Yes, and that

590
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: you've gone out there. How is that fronting the media

591
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: after all these years? This is a long, as you said,

592
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: over decades from the time the abuse until finally you

593
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: get the words.

594
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: It wasn't hard for me because I was still in

595
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: that mode of I'm okay. Ellie and Dussy were a

596
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: little bit more emotional. They were speaking because you could

597
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: see they were feeling it. He answered a couple questions.

598
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: Was over pretty fast. They followed us. We kept trying

599
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: to walk away. They kept following, We kept trying to

600
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: walk away, and then we're just kind of like like

601
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: lost chicken. We're like, what do we do now? Where

602
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: do we go? I think my sister's husband booked us

603
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: a place to stay for the night, and we knew

604
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: we were going to be together that night. And then

605
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us,

606
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: so we did a bit with them and then kind

607
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: of just like flitted away and we went back to

608
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: where we were staying, and we had a lot of

609
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just

610
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: not talking to anyone tonight. We actually can say that

611
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: now we don't have to talk. We can talk to

612
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: everyone tomorrow. We're not talking to anyone tonight. Then Ellie said, okay, fine,

613
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and

614
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: it was the one that was like just not English

615
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: second language. So we ended up just like bursting into

616
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing,

617
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: and then trying to give the question back to her

618
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected,

619
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions,

620
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional,

621
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters

622
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: the best And then one sister said that she's not

623
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: after doing media the next day, she needs to break.

624
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: So Ellie and I did the project and again this

625
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: is all me, still running on a journal and still

626
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting,

627
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so

628
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have a chance to process any of it

629
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life

630
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: normally is.

631
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and

632
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: your kids did. How did they receive it? Do we

633
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: get their mum and wife back? Now? Is that?

634
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if my kids felt that way. I

635
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: think that I feel like my family because I wasn't

636
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of

637
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.

638
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and

639
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well,

640
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: I was hardly there. I think I was hardly present

641
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: most of that festival. I was dealing with the grief

642
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: and the shock and the loss and all of that

643
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: sadness that was coming up. But it was devastating. It

644
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.

645
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and

646
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: I didn't get that justice.

647
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's

648
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: got justice? And really, if it's you're in this together,

649
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: but is it? Can you take any comfort from it?

650
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: I can? But what a lot of victim survivors who

651
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: don't do their statements in groups or any others I

652
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: have got and not guilty will know that a lot

653
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: of other steps to justice are denied. So when the

654
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there

655
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst

656
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: day for me. That was the twenty eighth of June.

657
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 2: And I will never forget that day. In a way,

658
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: it's even worse than hearing.

659
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: Not guilty, because you couldn't get.

660
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: I was completely invalidated. I almost didn't feel like I

661
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,239
Speaker 2: should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give

662
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: a victim of state, You're.

663
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: Not real I'm gone.

664
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: That's it. I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing,

665
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge

666
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: for me, and that she was in prison because of

667
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: something she did to me. So yes, comfort in the

668
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.

669
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just

670
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you

671
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: said how driven you were for justice, and then just

672
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: just not at that point in time.

673
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok,

674
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: and it's my voice is My Justice. And that's literally

675
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: been what I've used in the last two weeks because

676
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm

677
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: not going to get justice. That even if a whole

678
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did

679
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial,

680
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: and they told me they can't because of the contamination

681
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: and the high profile nature. They can't. So even if

682
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter. So I'm not

683
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: going to get that chance for justice. So my voice

684
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.

685
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: So I was very quiet for a couple of months,

686
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: and I think my sisters told me after they were

687
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: worried about me, that I would never recover and come

688
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids,

689
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: but very quiet in any other sense. And then that's it.

690
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken

691
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National

692
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and

693
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: Childhood Foundation. Started studying law this year. So I am

694
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail

695
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: my life. Instead, I've switched it around and I've become

696
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: a voice for survivors. I've spoken at many events. I've

697
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while

698
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: I start studying law so that I can get into

699
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: the system and help victims from the inside, not just

700
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: from the advocacy space. So I really turned around that

701
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough,

702
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: TikTok helped me a lot with that. I opened TikTok

703
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: and just started talking and people started sharing. Started absolutely

704
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: there's a whole incredible community of survivors there. The amount

705
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: of particularly older generation, old of me. I just turned forty,

706
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that

707
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: they were abused when they were younger is incredible. And

708
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: I've created that space that people feel safe to share

709
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: knowing that there's someone there that understands them. And I've

710
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians. I've

711
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 2: invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give

712
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: them the opportunity to be in a room full of

713
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: survivors at an event. And I really have used my

714
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: voice to get my own justice.

715
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how

716
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: people and people that sit in this chair because I

717
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: hear a lot of stories of different things. We're a

718
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing,

719
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: but defines who you are, how you react after that,

720
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that

721
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.

722
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.

723
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder

724
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: of three children in their community and we couldn't get

725
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: it through the courts and constant battles to try and

726
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: get justice. They've been fighting for over thirty years to

727
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: get justice for the three children that have been murdered.

728
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: She would often say to me, justice comes in in

729
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story,

730
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: telling our people's story. And I always hung on to

731
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: that that. I look at it from a policing point

732
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: of view. Justice had to be served through the courts,

733
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: but you are getting just in another way. You've been

734
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: given a platform and you're using it, and you're using

735
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: it to make a difference. And the person that committed

736
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in

737
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: jail now and you're out here helping people. Yes, do

738
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.

739
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: I do.

740
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.

741
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 2: It's something that eats away at me. But I'm working

742
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: through therapy and through understanding that.

743
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: You're inter views in therapy.

744
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 2: No definitely, no more.

745
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry I shouldn't know. That's totally part of it.

746
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: But you've got to laugh.

747
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to

748
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: me that because of our story and their family hearing

749
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: about Markoleefer. Their family believed them finally after all these years,

750
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.

751
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: So she said, do you take comfort from that? And

752
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: I said, I do. I do, but I still have

753
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the

754
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: not guilty part of it. But I am working so

755
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: hard on that in everything, in every way. It's just

756
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: something that will I think for a very very long time.

757
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: I think when a perpetrator has had that much control

758
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: and impact on my life as a Michael life I

759
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse

760
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 2: all of that and to find myself and to realize

761
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: that even if I'm still living in the community and

762
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: still in the same area and I passed by the

763
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: houses that she abused in or the school, I am

764
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: safe now and I am the person that is not

765
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.

766
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: So it's a constant work in progress.

767
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself

768
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: being safe now that you're taking control of the situation

769
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me. I'm

770
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's

771
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: really powerful messaging that you're getting across. Do you feel

772
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: supported by the community and your community and family.

773
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: Family, Absolutely, yep. Community I think has a lot a

774
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think

775
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.

776
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual

777
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: abuse and the shame. I think that a lot of

778
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: people think that they know how to support survivors because

779
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that

780
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: they're silent speaks so much more than one message does

781
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: that it needs to really particularly in our community. The

782
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the

783
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how

784
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 2: we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe

785
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: to come forward because they know they won't be shamed

786
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently. So

787
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman

788
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: can impact that change. Whether I am merit enough to

789
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but

790
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: I hope that I can create a legacy that people

791
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: can say a religious woman spoke out and still was

792
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: able to stay connected and still in the community. We

793
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: can do the same. We don't have to be so

794
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: afraid that other people are going to look down at

795
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: us and ostracize us. I will say that I have

796
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: felt people distancing from me because of that is something

797
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: that I have to live with, because of the choices

798
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: that I made to come out and still be in

799
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: the community. But I do not regret that. And the

800
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my

801
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: children with so much joy and love and no fear

802
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: and not the way that I was brought and just

803
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it

804
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: might not be, but for me it is because it

805
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my

806
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: children with my journey to justice. My second son, who's

807
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a

808
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: school camp like as a youth leader in the winter,

809
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: and he joked to me and he got back from

810
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: camp that they were going to do in activity searching

811
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: for Markolaefer. And he laughed at that, and I laughed

812
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.

813
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them,

814
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: that they can say her name, that they can joke

815
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid

816
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: to share that with me, knowing that I will still

817
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And

818
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: that proves to me that I have not traumatized my

819
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: children with what's happened to me. I've worked so hard

820
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that

821
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: my children should not know what's happening. Yes, they've got

822
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: a mom that runs for the dinner table to a

823
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: phone call or runs out the house to go around

824
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 2: the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what

825
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: COVID hit. They did have to know a little bit more.

826
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I still protected them, and

827
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: I still am protect them. So it's really just a

828
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor,

829
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 2: not about not giving them any details of the abuse.

830
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: That this is the woman, the prison, this is the

831
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: prison she's in. News comes out about you know about

832
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: her here and there. I don't mind to share that

833
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: with them a little bit, but that's it. So just

834
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.

835
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the

836
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: way that you should live life, that you can come

837
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: back from things, you can you know, you don't have

838
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: to be broken, you can take control. Like I think

839
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: it's inspirational. The fact that you've also stayed connected with

840
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: your church and your community. That says something too, you like,

841
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: I would imagine that. I'm not judging anyone that does that,

842
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves

843
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: from the environment. The fact that you can stay in

844
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: contact and still work within that environment and operate within

845
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: that environment, I think that says a lot too.

846
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.

847
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: It's not something that's easy. There are times that I

848
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: feel very let down, I think for a good year

849
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: and a half two year, and still even now, I

850
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 2: feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as

851
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 2: a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole

852
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: is incredible. I made a bonments for recently and I

853
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and

854
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind

855
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: of thing in a couple of years. This is what

856
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: community is. It's beautiful, but at the same time that

857
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: part of the community is amazing, that part is not.

858
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: I wish that they would do the same celebrating or

859
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.

860
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: And how can I create that change to happen so

861
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.

862
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: I will talk about it in conversations. I'll say the

863
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say

864
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: that because I'm going to put it into their faces.

865
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: I'll post it on my WhatsApp status. You might not

866
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: like it, and you will for sure not come, but

867
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: I want you to know it's happening because we want

868
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: to change. We want to impact change. My sisters and

869
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have

870
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: conversations too. We have the visibility, but we want something

871
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: to be happening from this visibility. We don't just want

872
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: to share story for entertainment. And that's why we met

873
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can

874
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: align with them and work with them and create impacting change.

875
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out,

876
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 2: and I hope some of those changes can veer into

877
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: my community as well, and I know it does. There

878
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: was an author who was found out to be an abuser,

879
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: a Jewish author overseas. I called all the three schools

880
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.

881
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: And they're kids books that kids read. I read them

882
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: as a teenager. My kids all read them. They loved

883
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: him as an author, and they did. They threw out

884
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid

885
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: to request that of them. So it's changed that needs

886
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 2: to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part

887
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: of that.

888
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.

889
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.

890
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've

891
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile,

892
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: worthwhile watching. After everything that you've been through and your

893
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does

894
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: it feel to know that what you've been through is

895
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: going to play out on the big screen with this

896
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: documentary coming up.

897
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous

898
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: for the documentary. It is very vulnerable, it is raw,

899
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster. It is

900
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey,

901
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: and we filmed for five years. To have that reduced

902
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done

903
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 2: so well and we are so hopeful that people see

904
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: the story for the whole, the entirety of the story,

905
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: not just any agenda. Abuse happens in every community, in

906
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: every religion, in every country all over the world, and

907
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire

908
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: others to do the same, and we can also impact

909
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: change others are aware of what it looks like to

910
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: be brought up in an abusive home and then be

911
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.

912
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the

913
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: courage to do that. I know one of the people

914
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to

915
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: watch it. I think it'll be really powerful. As you described, yes,

916
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: I think the fact that you are talking about it too,

917
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.

918
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because

919
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk

920
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 1: about when red flags are seen or just says an

921
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: icky feel or whatever. Something doesn't feel right, people are

922
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about it. I think the fact that you're

923
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: coming out and talking about it and putting the light

924
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: on it is important and it might prevent further things

925
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: like this happening.

926
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 2: I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary

927
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 2: and seeing what went on in our case can cause

928
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: people to think, Wow, that all went on under our

929
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 2: noses and we didn't notice. Let's notice more if there's

930
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi

931
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 2: lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on,

932
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 2: whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if

933
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 2: the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit

934
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: suspicious and not appropriate for children. Go don't just blame

935
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: the child, look further, find out what's going on in

936
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing,

937
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 2: and start understanding more that every child is a world

938
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: of their own, and if you don't notice, those children

939
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 2: step through the cracks. And it's upon us as adults

940
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 2: to notice the children in our lives.

941
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact

942
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you

943
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: on the spot here. What would you want to say

944
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: if she was sitting in the scene in the court

945
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: and you could face it down, and what would you

946
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: say there?

947
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: I'll answer that in a minute. I did do a

948
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 2: victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts. It is graphic,

949
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.

950
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: And I did do it in seven parts, so seven

951
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: minutes long. And if I would have had a chance

952
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would

953
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 2: have been crying. But what I would say to her

954
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 2: is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching,

955
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 2: because you can't shy away from what you did to me.

956
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even

957
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: a drop in the ocean of what you have done

958
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: to me, and then explain to her the impact of

959
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: all of that. But at the end to day, but

960
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.

961
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 2: I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going

962
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: to show you that what you have done to me

963
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: is not going to break me and not going to

964
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: impact me the way you think it did or you.

965
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 2: It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.

966
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.

967
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 2: It was like coming off her in waves. She stared

968
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: down the judge, she stared down the jury. She stood

969
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: in a way her body language was I've got this.

970
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: And even the prison guy said to us she had

971
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that

972
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: she's going to Israel that night. That's how confident she

973
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: was and that's the confidence she ran the school. So

974
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: for me to be able to say you did and

975
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a

976
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: little chink in the armor that she has of confidence. No,

977
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: you did all of that, and you're in jail because

978
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: of that. And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.

979
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's

980
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: very it's really heart entering.

981
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: Powerful. Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the

982
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of

983
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself. There

984
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: is something that I won't bog us down with it,

985
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 1: but there was something that the judge made a comment

986
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: that the type of situation that you found yourself in,

987
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: so the evidence that you gave helped put into context

988
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: what happened to your sisters as well. So the evidence

989
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay,

990
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred. So I

991
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well,

992
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: everything else you did both sides, going out of the

993
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing

994
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: you made a difference at the trial too, So I

995
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: don't think your evidence was ignored. They just who knows

996
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.

997
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 1: I wish to make the following brief observations. There's been

998
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these

999
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as

1000
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: the victim impact statements were not made until after the

1001
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: jury convicted Miss Lifer. The victims have been able to

1002
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on

1003
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: them during the entire period. For each of them, it

1004
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: has been profound and life changing. What they have described

1005
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of

1006
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: the offending. Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the

1007
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or

1008
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: vulnerable has. To the extent that the victims feel a

1009
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they

1010
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: should not. They were completely innocent victims of the predatory

1011
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she

1012
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 1: alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred. So, yeah,

1013
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the judge got it. Yeah, it's not about the victims.

1014
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: It's not about victim shame. It's one person to blame

1015
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: blame for this whole thing. Two. Unfortunately, there's a lot

1016
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: of victims. Yeah, that they have been through similar situations

1017
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 1: as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice

1018
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: like you had to fight for justice. What message would

1019
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: you give to them if they're feeling like they're not

1020
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a

1021
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: brick wall basically and just fighting the system. What sort

1022
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: of advice? What things would you say to them?

1023
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even

1024
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: though I didn't get justice. I believe that every single

1025
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 2: time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength

1026
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: to go to court. They are forcing the abuser to

1027
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't

1028
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: result in it guilty plea. So for anyone that has

1029
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 2: a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.

1030
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 2: Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them

1031
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 2: bring the predators and abusers to justice.

1032
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: So don't give up good advice. How's your life now?

1033
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: You've talked about what you're doing. How are you within

1034
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: yourself after being through because what you've been through is

1035
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting,

1036
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: how do you look at life now? That's probably a

1037
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: better question.

1038
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting for me because I think because

1039
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 2: of all the time I've been through my life, childhood

1040
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe

1041
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict

1042
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 2: broke that it caused this emotion to come out because

1043
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: it was that impactful, And since then I would say

1044
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really

1045
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: difficult stuff. And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because

1046
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had

1047
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: did abuse me. Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered

1048
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: so much more of what she's done. It's becoming clearer

1049
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 2: and clearer to me. It means obviously, I'm mentally able

1050
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: to remember a lot more and able to understand the

1051
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: impact and the depth of the level of her abuse

1052
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: and how evil she was, and then work through it

1053
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: in therapy, so coming out the other side. So I

1054
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 2: have hope that one day soon she will not be

1055
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: the first thing I think of and the last thing

1056
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: I think of every day, which does still happen just

1057
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: because of the nature of the space I'm in and

1058
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.

1059
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: There has been maybe two moments in the last year

1060
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had

1061
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 2: an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't

1062
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: the first thing that that was in my mind, or

1063
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: she wasn't existent at all. And that's hope is hope,

1064
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.

1065
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen

1066
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: years since.

1067
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: Eleven point five and fifteen?

1068
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: Yes? Do you think that was long enough? Now that's

1069
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: a dumb question. You'd never think it's long enough.

1070
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was

1071
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: set out for our case, I don't know if they

1072
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 2: are set out like that for others. No, I don't

1073
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 2: think it was long enough. The amount of charges eighteen charges,

1074
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: some of them very very serious charges. My issue is

1075
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: I don't trust for a minute that she will not

1076
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.

1077
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: And there are many that think.

1078
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: Like that well, with the past history.

1079
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just

1080
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: will do everything I can to make sure that wherever

1081
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: she goes to live, the people there know she's not

1082
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: a safe person.

1083
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 1: I think that's fair enough. If people want to reach

1084
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: out to you all the type of things that you're doing,

1085
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: you said you're speaking up. Where where's the best place

1086
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: to find you?

1087
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: Instagram breaking the silence? Now is my name and TikTok

1088
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: Nicole Meyer so easy? People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.

1089
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 2: I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.

1090
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and

1091
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,479
Speaker 1: I was worried about you. Happen to take you through

1092
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: reliving what's occurred. But I've walked away from this inspired.

1093
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people

1094
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: react to that. There is a testament to the person

1095
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: that you are, how hard you fought for justice. I

1096
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 1: know how painful that can be, and it breaks many

1097
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: a person trying to get justice. But you just continued

1098
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: and hung in there, and you know you didn't get

1099
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I

1100
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 1: think you've got justice in so many other ways, making

1101
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and

1102
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: so full credit to you. Thank you, it's been a

1103
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: great chack.

1104
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.

1105
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: Cheers.