1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Apote production. 2 00:00:14,241 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host, 3 00:00:16,361 --> 00:00:19,041 Speaker 2: Adam Shand. It's been my honor over the years to 4 00:00:19,081 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: tell the stories of police officers and their service to 5 00:00:21,681 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: the community. Often these officers have suffered trauma as a 6 00:00:25,521 --> 00:00:30,161 Speaker 2: result of their service. Detective Sergeant Peter Ramanaz says police 7 00:00:30,201 --> 00:00:33,961 Speaker 2: absorbed the pain of others for so long, eventually the 8 00:00:34,001 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: well just runs dry. It's only in recent years that 9 00:00:38,081 --> 00:00:42,161 Speaker 2: the community and enlightened police forces have begun to understand 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: the long term impacts of post traumatic stress disorder. A 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:51,001 Speaker 2: former Victorian officer diagnosed with PTSD says he was haunted 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,761 Speaker 2: by flashbacks, nightmares, and overwhelming anxiety. Rather than accepting the 13 00:00:56,801 --> 00:00:59,921 Speaker 2: trauma comes with the job, police forces are now coming 14 00:00:59,961 --> 00:01:02,721 Speaker 2: to terms of PTSD and trying to find ways of 15 00:01:02,761 --> 00:01:06,721 Speaker 2: preventing it and getting members back on the job. Nerelle 16 00:01:06,721 --> 00:01:09,801 Speaker 2: Fraser was a member of Victoria Police for twenty seven years. 17 00:01:10,321 --> 00:01:14,001 Speaker 2: Fifteen of those years she was a detective dealing with homicide, 18 00:01:14,041 --> 00:01:18,081 Speaker 2: sexual assault, and missing person's cases. Her matters cover some 19 00:01:18,121 --> 00:01:21,041 Speaker 2: of the highest profile crimes in Victoria of her era. 20 00:01:21,521 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: In twenty twelve, Noel began to see a change in herself. 21 00:01:25,681 --> 00:01:29,041 Speaker 2: Perhaps all the death, misery, and trauma she'd witnessed had 22 00:01:29,081 --> 00:01:34,881 Speaker 2: begun to accumulate. Former officers described carrying cases for decades 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,881 Speaker 2: long after the uniform comes off. She was diagnosed with 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,521 Speaker 2: PTSD and she never returned to the job she loved. 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: She had to find healing, and with that came a 26 00:01:46,601 --> 00:01:50,801 Speaker 2: complete reinvention of herself. In the years since, Norelle has 27 00:01:50,841 --> 00:01:54,961 Speaker 2: become a successful podcast host, a keynote speaker, and she 28 00:01:55,001 --> 00:01:58,881 Speaker 2: also trains investigators. She uses her experience as an inspiration 29 00:01:58,961 --> 00:02:01,161 Speaker 2: to others getting into the job or dealing with the 30 00:02:01,281 --> 00:02:04,841 Speaker 2: dark side of her career in policing. Like most former detectives, 31 00:02:05,161 --> 00:02:09,041 Speaker 2: Noel carries with her memories of jobs that she couldn't complete, 32 00:02:09,281 --> 00:02:12,681 Speaker 2: loved ones she couldn't bring home to their families, crooks 33 00:02:12,681 --> 00:02:15,521 Speaker 2: she couldn't lock up. And today we'll talk about one 34 00:02:15,561 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: of those. Lorraine Joy Carter. He vanished in July two 35 00:02:19,721 --> 00:02:23,041 Speaker 2: thousand and two, presumed murdered Gay Norrell. 36 00:02:24,401 --> 00:02:26,361 Speaker 1: Hello, thank you for having me. 37 00:02:27,001 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: When I say Lorraine Joy Carter, what images come to mind? 38 00:02:32,641 --> 00:02:35,041 Speaker 1: I suppose it's not so much an Emmy Jadam, but 39 00:02:35,121 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: more so a sense of failure. I worked on Lorraine's 40 00:02:41,001 --> 00:02:45,841 Speaker 1: case for years with a team obviously from Missing Persons Unit, 41 00:02:46,001 --> 00:02:51,641 Speaker 1: but I was never able to find her, just her parents. 42 00:02:51,721 --> 00:02:57,401 Speaker 1: The anguish, the sadness, the trauma that her parents went 43 00:02:57,481 --> 00:03:02,041 Speaker 1: through of not knowing where Lorraine was, if she was 44 00:03:02,161 --> 00:03:07,321 Speaker 1: actually alive or deceased. It's more a sense of failure 45 00:03:07,761 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: when anybody says the name Lorraine. It's an awful thing 46 00:03:11,281 --> 00:03:15,001 Speaker 1: to live with, Adam, it really is, because now that 47 00:03:15,081 --> 00:03:18,481 Speaker 1: both her parents are deceased. You know, even if we 48 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,081 Speaker 1: do find Lorraine, every time there's a dead body or 49 00:03:22,081 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: a deceased body or bones fan, I always think, oh 50 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,881 Speaker 1: my god, I hope it's Loraine. But her parents went 51 00:03:27,921 --> 00:03:31,001 Speaker 1: to their grave without ever ever knowing. So that's a 52 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,721 Speaker 1: huge failure in my book. 53 00:03:33,321 --> 00:03:36,681 Speaker 2: And I've spoken to numerous missing persons detectives over the years, 54 00:03:37,241 --> 00:03:42,401 Speaker 2: and they're very careful how they promise things. They don't 55 00:03:42,441 --> 00:03:45,641 Speaker 2: say I will bring your love one home. That's their 56 00:03:45,681 --> 00:03:48,441 Speaker 2: ego speaking. It's got to be much more of a 57 00:03:48,761 --> 00:03:52,481 Speaker 2: I will leave no stone unturned in the search for 58 00:03:52,521 --> 00:03:53,601 Speaker 2: your loved one. 59 00:03:54,401 --> 00:03:58,921 Speaker 1: That's right, because I mean with Lorraine, no, we never 60 00:03:58,961 --> 00:04:01,641 Speaker 1: did find her, and you cannot promise things that you 61 00:04:01,681 --> 00:04:04,801 Speaker 1: don't know the answer to, and I think that would 62 00:04:04,801 --> 00:04:09,041 Speaker 1: be a huge mistake for anyone to promise we will 63 00:04:09,081 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: find them. You just don't know. But like you just said, then, 64 00:04:13,681 --> 00:04:16,841 Speaker 1: I've always said I will do everything I can, I 65 00:04:16,881 --> 00:04:20,681 Speaker 1: will leave no stone unturned. But I would often say 66 00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: to them, you know, to any parent or relative or 67 00:04:24,121 --> 00:04:26,441 Speaker 1: friend of a missing person, I'll do everything I can, 68 00:04:26,761 --> 00:04:30,801 Speaker 1: but I cannot promise you I'll find them. That must 69 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,401 Speaker 1: be hard to hear for somebody that's got a loved 70 00:04:34,401 --> 00:04:38,601 Speaker 1: one or friend missing. But in the end, I got 71 00:04:38,681 --> 00:04:41,041 Speaker 1: taught when I was a kid, don't make promises you 72 00:04:41,121 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: can't keep. 73 00:04:43,161 --> 00:04:46,321 Speaker 2: As journos, we constantly overpromise and under deliver. So it's 74 00:04:46,361 --> 00:04:49,121 Speaker 2: a different kind of kind of thing. But in your 75 00:04:49,201 --> 00:04:51,321 Speaker 2: world though, and I guess we did this to some 76 00:04:51,361 --> 00:04:53,881 Speaker 2: extent as well, long term cases that we cover, but 77 00:04:53,921 --> 00:04:58,841 Speaker 2: yours is a different emphasis. You form a close relationship 78 00:04:59,041 --> 00:05:01,761 Speaker 2: with the family, but at the same time you're not 79 00:05:01,801 --> 00:05:04,481 Speaker 2: acting for the fan. You're acting for the crown. That's 80 00:05:04,561 --> 00:05:08,521 Speaker 2: your first responsibility. Yet you are brought into the family 81 00:05:08,641 --> 00:05:11,441 Speaker 2: circle of this person that you will never meet, possibly 82 00:05:11,721 --> 00:05:15,681 Speaker 2: certainly not living, and you see their childhood photographs, you 83 00:05:15,761 --> 00:05:19,041 Speaker 2: see their school reports, you talk to their friends, You 84 00:05:19,121 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: form this picture, and you develop a close relationship with 85 00:05:23,081 --> 00:05:26,561 Speaker 2: the family in terms of your own mental health and 86 00:05:26,601 --> 00:05:30,081 Speaker 2: well being. How do you regulate that kind of relationship. 87 00:05:31,801 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: I think that was probably my undoing, was that I 88 00:05:36,481 --> 00:05:41,681 Speaker 1: felt I could compartmentalize to a point, but I couldn't 89 00:05:41,721 --> 00:05:45,881 Speaker 1: actually cut myself off from those emotions. And I think 90 00:05:46,081 --> 00:05:50,161 Speaker 1: really good detectives do. But I also know a lot 91 00:05:50,161 --> 00:05:54,281 Speaker 1: of detectives that feel like me that they do develop 92 00:05:54,281 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: a closeness because you learn so much about this person, 93 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,081 Speaker 1: it's almost like you're there with them. And as you say, 94 00:06:01,241 --> 00:06:05,481 Speaker 1: like seeing the photos around and like with Lorraine, I've 95 00:06:05,521 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: spoken to her girlfriends, I've spoken to her friends, obviously 96 00:06:09,681 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: her mum and dad, but her family, and looking back, 97 00:06:13,281 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say too close. But I couldn't stop thinking 98 00:06:16,921 --> 00:06:23,081 Speaker 1: I'm responsible for Lorraine's parents' happiness. Like that's a huge 99 00:06:23,161 --> 00:06:27,481 Speaker 1: load for anybody to carry, and I used to do 100 00:06:27,561 --> 00:06:32,121 Speaker 1: that a lot. I felt very responsible for their happiness. 101 00:06:32,121 --> 00:06:35,161 Speaker 1: In fact, by the end, when I was diagnosed with PTSD, 102 00:06:35,641 --> 00:06:40,601 Speaker 1: I was feeling responsible for everybody's happiness and welfare and 103 00:06:40,641 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: safety in Victoria. I mean, you just can't do that. 104 00:06:44,761 --> 00:06:49,361 Speaker 1: So I wasn't very good at not getting close. 105 00:06:50,681 --> 00:06:53,761 Speaker 2: And that's a strength for some detectives. I mean, I've 106 00:06:53,801 --> 00:06:57,121 Speaker 2: even heard of stories where they're in the interview room, 107 00:06:57,521 --> 00:07:00,561 Speaker 2: they push away the interview table, they sit next to 108 00:07:00,601 --> 00:07:04,041 Speaker 2: the accused or the family, and they really give of themselves. 109 00:07:04,681 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 2: But it's a dangerous moment because I think that well 110 00:07:08,841 --> 00:07:12,401 Speaker 2: of empathy is not bottomless. It will have an impact 111 00:07:12,441 --> 00:07:15,681 Speaker 2: on you. And I think, look at the cases you covered. 112 00:07:16,321 --> 00:07:19,121 Speaker 2: Your bucket was pretty full. You can't go to that 113 00:07:19,161 --> 00:07:22,761 Speaker 2: well endlessly. And I think you reached a point where 114 00:07:23,161 --> 00:07:24,041 Speaker 2: that was true. 115 00:07:24,601 --> 00:07:28,041 Speaker 1: Oh I absolutely did. But I didn't see it coming, Adam. 116 00:07:28,081 --> 00:07:29,801 Speaker 1: And I think that's what a lot of people that 117 00:07:29,921 --> 00:07:33,961 Speaker 1: get PTSD. We are trying to change that term to PtSi, 118 00:07:34,641 --> 00:07:37,481 Speaker 1: as in the fact that it's an injury, not a disorder, 119 00:07:37,561 --> 00:07:41,201 Speaker 1: because it's got just such a negative connotation. But all 120 00:07:41,241 --> 00:07:43,361 Speaker 1: the time I go back to PTSD, I'm trying to 121 00:07:43,441 --> 00:07:46,801 Speaker 1: change my way of thinking. But I just kept going 122 00:07:46,841 --> 00:07:50,161 Speaker 1: into that well and I didn't see it coming. And 123 00:07:50,201 --> 00:07:53,761 Speaker 1: that happens a lot with people that get PtSi. They 124 00:07:53,841 --> 00:07:57,441 Speaker 1: don't see it coming. It's like a bolt out of 125 00:07:57,481 --> 00:08:00,441 Speaker 1: the blue. You think, why can't I do this today? 126 00:08:01,401 --> 00:08:04,241 Speaker 1: With me? It happened when I was viewing some child 127 00:08:04,281 --> 00:08:08,481 Speaker 1: abuse material that I had done hundreds of times before, 128 00:08:09,321 --> 00:08:12,401 Speaker 1: but this particular day, I don't know. I just think 129 00:08:12,481 --> 00:08:15,321 Speaker 1: my bucket, my well got full, and I just couldn't 130 00:08:15,321 --> 00:08:20,201 Speaker 1: deal with anymore. Apparently that's quite common that we think 131 00:08:20,241 --> 00:08:23,121 Speaker 1: it happens just suddenly, just comes out of the blue. 132 00:08:23,601 --> 00:08:26,961 Speaker 1: But when you look back, the signs were there for 133 00:08:27,041 --> 00:08:30,921 Speaker 1: a very very long time. I put my head in 134 00:08:31,001 --> 00:08:34,681 Speaker 1: the sand. I didn't understand anything in my day. When 135 00:08:34,721 --> 00:08:38,241 Speaker 1: I was diagnosed in twenty twelve, it was very new. 136 00:08:38,681 --> 00:08:41,201 Speaker 1: I didn't know what PTSD was. I can remember when 137 00:08:41,241 --> 00:08:46,081 Speaker 1: the doctor told me. I said, me, PTSD, what is that? 138 00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:50,201 Speaker 1: And of course when he said the words mental illness, 139 00:08:51,081 --> 00:08:56,201 Speaker 1: just hung and I thought I couldn't have a mental illness. 140 00:08:56,321 --> 00:08:58,961 Speaker 1: I'm no reel Fraser. I'm fine. I'm the strong one. 141 00:08:59,081 --> 00:09:02,001 Speaker 1: I take on well, I don't take on the tough jobs, 142 00:09:02,041 --> 00:09:05,041 Speaker 1: but I'm drawn to them like a b to a honey, 143 00:09:05,361 --> 00:09:08,881 Speaker 1: because that's what I like. But I just couldn't see 144 00:09:08,601 --> 00:09:10,161 Speaker 1: the wood for the trees. 145 00:09:11,041 --> 00:09:16,041 Speaker 2: And you also forged a career in Victoria Police at 146 00:09:16,041 --> 00:09:18,721 Speaker 2: a time when women were really assuming their rightful role 147 00:09:19,281 --> 00:09:20,481 Speaker 2: in the ranks of Victoria Police. 148 00:09:20,521 --> 00:09:21,641 Speaker 3: It wasn't always easy. 149 00:09:22,121 --> 00:09:25,081 Speaker 2: You had to be very resilient, so I guess that 150 00:09:25,201 --> 00:09:28,921 Speaker 2: feeling of having to be superhuman and invincible was an 151 00:09:28,921 --> 00:09:31,441 Speaker 2: important part of your uniform as you went to work. 152 00:09:32,201 --> 00:09:37,481 Speaker 1: Absolutely, because in the day when I was diagnosed in 153 00:09:37,521 --> 00:09:41,561 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, I was so concerned about being seen as 154 00:09:41,881 --> 00:09:46,001 Speaker 1: unable to cope weak, you know, she can't deal with it. 155 00:09:46,281 --> 00:09:50,041 Speaker 1: And as you say, we as women have come a 156 00:09:50,081 --> 00:09:54,161 Speaker 1: long way. Like really, when I first started, women were 157 00:09:54,201 --> 00:09:57,161 Speaker 1: just an addendum. Blokes went and caught the crooks and 158 00:09:57,241 --> 00:10:01,281 Speaker 1: we just sort of really tagged along. If kids needed 159 00:10:01,641 --> 00:10:05,281 Speaker 1: babysitting or a woman needed to be helped or support to, 160 00:10:05,361 --> 00:10:07,801 Speaker 1: oh you know, the girls will do that. So we 161 00:10:07,921 --> 00:10:10,441 Speaker 1: have come a long way, Jeuse. It was tough at 162 00:10:10,441 --> 00:10:12,961 Speaker 1: the start at them. You know, there were times when 163 00:10:13,001 --> 00:10:14,281 Speaker 1: I wanted to walk away. 164 00:10:15,161 --> 00:10:19,401 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard male members refer to policewomen of 165 00:10:19,441 --> 00:10:22,761 Speaker 2: that era as the skirts and even less flattering terms. 166 00:10:23,161 --> 00:10:24,241 Speaker 3: Yes, it's dismissive. 167 00:10:24,561 --> 00:10:26,641 Speaker 2: You have to be tougher than tough, and you have 168 00:10:27,241 --> 00:10:30,441 Speaker 2: to pull your weight, which you did, so credit to you. 169 00:10:30,761 --> 00:10:34,641 Speaker 1: And a weight it was. It was a weight to carry, 170 00:10:34,761 --> 00:10:38,561 Speaker 1: but I just sort of felt I loved policing, and 171 00:10:38,641 --> 00:10:41,601 Speaker 1: I think I learned a very valuable lesson early on 172 00:10:41,881 --> 00:10:46,001 Speaker 1: that I can't be responsible for how other people think, 173 00:10:46,441 --> 00:10:49,561 Speaker 1: how other people act, because I saw some terrible things 174 00:10:49,761 --> 00:10:55,121 Speaker 1: from policemen towards the community. But I thought if I 175 00:10:55,241 --> 00:10:58,801 Speaker 1: walked away and I wasn't there, who would be there 176 00:10:58,881 --> 00:11:02,841 Speaker 1: to help some of those people, to talk to them. 177 00:11:03,281 --> 00:11:06,441 Speaker 1: So I look at it now as a strength to 178 00:11:07,161 --> 00:11:10,201 Speaker 1: that I stayed, I suppose, but I didn't at the time. 179 00:11:10,321 --> 00:11:12,401 Speaker 1: It was just sort of feel like you have to 180 00:11:12,881 --> 00:11:18,241 Speaker 1: accept the positives and the negatives and concentrate more on 181 00:11:18,281 --> 00:11:21,121 Speaker 1: the positives and the negatives, because I mean, in your 182 00:11:21,161 --> 00:11:25,241 Speaker 1: field in journalism, there's positives and negatives. I'm sure you've 183 00:11:25,321 --> 00:11:27,721 Speaker 1: a couple of times felt like, you know what, I'm 184 00:11:27,761 --> 00:11:30,041 Speaker 1: out of here, But then you think about the good 185 00:11:30,081 --> 00:11:32,121 Speaker 1: times and the good things you do and the good 186 00:11:32,161 --> 00:11:36,761 Speaker 1: stories you cover. You've just got to sold your honor. 187 00:11:36,721 --> 00:11:39,241 Speaker 1: I suppose if you said and done. 188 00:11:39,121 --> 00:11:40,881 Speaker 2: The only times I said I'm out of here was 189 00:11:40,881 --> 00:11:42,481 Speaker 2: when I got fired. A couple of times, let's not 190 00:11:42,521 --> 00:11:46,801 Speaker 2: go to those stories. By two thousand and two, when 191 00:11:47,241 --> 00:11:50,641 Speaker 2: Lorraine Joy Carter goes missing, you're fully fledged. You've been 192 00:11:50,681 --> 00:11:53,481 Speaker 2: in the job for more than fifteen years as a 193 00:11:53,521 --> 00:11:57,681 Speaker 2: detective in a uniform as well. You were perfectly placed 194 00:11:58,201 --> 00:11:59,321 Speaker 2: to cover this investigation. 195 00:11:59,441 --> 00:12:02,161 Speaker 3: You were the informant. Tell me about Lorraine. 196 00:12:02,201 --> 00:12:04,241 Speaker 2: What were your early impressions of her as you started 197 00:12:04,281 --> 00:12:05,761 Speaker 2: to form your case theory? 198 00:12:07,481 --> 00:12:15,081 Speaker 1: Probably one of sadness that Lorraine had been born with complications. 199 00:12:16,121 --> 00:12:20,401 Speaker 1: She was born with some enormous challenges. She went to 200 00:12:21,241 --> 00:12:24,641 Speaker 1: what we used to call a special school in Bendigo. 201 00:12:25,361 --> 00:12:29,961 Speaker 1: She really struggled academically. All the professionals that her mum 202 00:12:30,001 --> 00:12:33,521 Speaker 1: and dad took her to basically always said Lorraine would 203 00:12:33,561 --> 00:12:37,161 Speaker 1: amount to nothing. She lived with her parents most of 204 00:12:37,201 --> 00:12:40,961 Speaker 1: her life. They were this is going to sound wrong. 205 00:12:41,001 --> 00:12:43,161 Speaker 1: I don't know how to say it, but to look 206 00:12:43,201 --> 00:12:46,761 Speaker 1: at Lorraine, you knew that there were problems, there were issues, 207 00:12:47,121 --> 00:12:50,401 Speaker 1: But you know what, to her parents, Lorraine was just 208 00:12:51,401 --> 00:12:55,241 Speaker 1: a perfect child. I mean they had a very very 209 00:12:55,281 --> 00:12:58,961 Speaker 1: close relationship and because of her challenges and her struggles, 210 00:12:59,841 --> 00:13:04,041 Speaker 1: they looked after her probably a bit more. They were 211 00:13:04,161 --> 00:13:08,641 Speaker 1: really lovely close family. And Lorraine had this dog called Chloe, 212 00:13:09,081 --> 00:13:12,961 Speaker 1: and Chloe was the world to Lorraine. Like her child. 213 00:13:13,681 --> 00:13:18,201 Speaker 1: You know, she had a couple of relationships. They were disasters, 214 00:13:18,881 --> 00:13:23,561 Speaker 1: but she had a really beautiful personality. She made a 215 00:13:23,561 --> 00:13:27,041 Speaker 1: lot of friends at school and friends that were friends 216 00:13:27,041 --> 00:13:30,641 Speaker 1: of hers until she went missing. And I've spoken to 217 00:13:30,761 --> 00:13:35,761 Speaker 1: many of those friends, and she was a very very popular, 218 00:13:36,241 --> 00:13:38,801 Speaker 1: really lovely natured woman. 219 00:13:40,001 --> 00:13:42,201 Speaker 2: And as you say, they were a very close family. 220 00:13:42,841 --> 00:13:46,041 Speaker 2: And in nineteen ninety eight, her parents, June and Allen, 221 00:13:46,081 --> 00:13:49,361 Speaker 2: they bought a caravan down at Phillip Island at Caravan 222 00:13:49,441 --> 00:13:52,041 Speaker 2: Park there and Lorraine would go there with them, but 223 00:13:52,121 --> 00:13:56,041 Speaker 2: also stay there on her own. In two thousand, she 224 00:13:56,161 --> 00:13:58,721 Speaker 2: meets the man who had become the red hot suspect 225 00:13:58,841 --> 00:14:00,161 Speaker 2: in her disappearance. 226 00:13:59,641 --> 00:14:02,121 Speaker 1: And murder, The only suspecting. 227 00:14:03,121 --> 00:14:03,401 Speaker 3: Correct. 228 00:14:03,481 --> 00:14:06,401 Speaker 2: I was given the benefit of the doubt from Murray 229 00:14:06,601 --> 00:14:07,441 Speaker 2: Lionel Carter. 230 00:14:07,521 --> 00:14:07,921 Speaker 3: Who is he? 231 00:14:09,601 --> 00:14:11,961 Speaker 1: You know, my parents taught me a lot of things, 232 00:14:12,001 --> 00:14:14,241 Speaker 1: but one of the things they taught me was if 233 00:14:14,241 --> 00:14:17,881 Speaker 1: you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything. 234 00:14:18,961 --> 00:14:23,161 Speaker 1: But my parents aren't here now, so I can actually 235 00:14:23,241 --> 00:14:28,881 Speaker 1: say I despised everything that Murray stood for. And this 236 00:14:28,961 --> 00:14:33,041 Speaker 1: is through years of investigating this man and I was 237 00:14:33,081 --> 00:14:36,641 Speaker 1: able to actually put this aside and do my job. 238 00:14:37,441 --> 00:14:46,121 Speaker 1: But he was a controlling, manipulative man who was very violent, 239 00:14:47,041 --> 00:14:52,161 Speaker 1: and he was a very typical abuser because what he 240 00:14:52,241 --> 00:14:57,561 Speaker 1: did was he met Lorraine. Obviously she was very vulnerable. 241 00:14:57,761 --> 00:15:00,481 Speaker 1: He could see that he wasn't a dial you know, 242 00:15:00,641 --> 00:15:03,681 Speaker 1: I'd love to say he was, but he wasn't. And 243 00:15:03,761 --> 00:15:10,081 Speaker 1: he began to isolate Lorraine from her parents, from her friends. 244 00:15:10,121 --> 00:15:15,881 Speaker 1: It is just such a typical coercive, controlling relationship. 245 00:15:16,521 --> 00:15:20,481 Speaker 2: You're right, because pretty soon they're living together in Murray's caravan. 246 00:15:21,201 --> 00:15:24,441 Speaker 2: Not long afterwards, they moved to Cape Patterson, even further 247 00:15:24,521 --> 00:15:27,401 Speaker 2: south than Phillip Island. So you see this process of 248 00:15:27,401 --> 00:15:30,121 Speaker 2: isolation beginning. Sort of, I guess what we call these 249 00:15:30,601 --> 00:15:34,081 Speaker 2: control and coercion that sort of ended the policing lexicon 250 00:15:34,121 --> 00:15:35,001 Speaker 2: in recent years, but. 251 00:15:34,961 --> 00:15:35,921 Speaker 3: This is a good example of it. 252 00:15:35,961 --> 00:15:41,121 Speaker 1: I think, Oh absolutely, to the point where Lorraine was 253 00:15:41,201 --> 00:15:47,881 Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent relying on Murray for everything, for money, 254 00:15:47,921 --> 00:15:52,801 Speaker 1: because he began controlling her finances. Where they lived. They 255 00:15:52,961 --> 00:15:55,841 Speaker 1: ended up moving to a place up on the mid 256 00:15:55,881 --> 00:15:58,081 Speaker 1: to Mitter, the most beautiful part of the world. But 257 00:15:58,121 --> 00:16:00,721 Speaker 1: you know, I can't go anywhere near there there without 258 00:16:00,801 --> 00:16:06,201 Speaker 1: thinking about Paul Lorraine. But he ended up moving to 259 00:16:06,841 --> 00:16:12,081 Speaker 1: this dump, no electricity, no water. It was a family 260 00:16:12,161 --> 00:16:15,801 Speaker 1: house that had been abandoned, his family, and he took 261 00:16:15,801 --> 00:16:19,361 Speaker 1: her up there. You know, they were five hundred meters 262 00:16:19,361 --> 00:16:24,041 Speaker 1: from the road, they were kilometers from neighbors, no phone 263 00:16:24,281 --> 00:16:27,881 Speaker 1: except Lorraine's mobile. But you know, just to go into town, 264 00:16:28,361 --> 00:16:32,241 Speaker 1: Lorraine didn't drive, so even to go to the shops, 265 00:16:32,881 --> 00:16:37,401 Speaker 1: she either had to walk, which was ten k or 266 00:16:38,121 --> 00:16:42,121 Speaker 1: hitchhike or go with Murray. You know, like it is 267 00:16:42,361 --> 00:16:48,881 Speaker 1: just a perfect example of somebody that manipulates and controls 268 00:16:49,401 --> 00:16:51,481 Speaker 1: a person, in this case. 269 00:16:51,401 --> 00:16:55,121 Speaker 2: A woman, And in Lorraine's case, the disappearance is out 270 00:16:55,161 --> 00:16:58,401 Speaker 2: of character. So close to her parents, has been in 271 00:16:58,481 --> 00:17:01,321 Speaker 2: constant contact through all the dramas. She was getting beaten up, 272 00:17:01,561 --> 00:17:03,601 Speaker 2: there were all these things going on, but she still 273 00:17:03,641 --> 00:17:08,761 Speaker 2: kept communicating. Obviously, in these situations you must eliminate the 274 00:17:08,801 --> 00:17:11,801 Speaker 2: spouse or partner of those close to the victim. And 275 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,161 Speaker 2: when you looked into Murray's background, there were some telltale signs. 276 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,361 Speaker 2: He'd done jail for karth F's and robbery with violence. 277 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,441 Speaker 3: He'd beaten a shop on over the. 278 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: Head, with a with a hammer. 279 00:17:24,681 --> 00:17:28,401 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess in that situation he becomes your 280 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,441 Speaker 2: prime suspect, and you're really thinking this is more than 281 00:17:32,521 --> 00:17:34,801 Speaker 2: likely a murder, not just a disappearance. 282 00:17:35,721 --> 00:17:41,441 Speaker 1: Absolutely, there were so many telltale signs. But just going back, yes, 283 00:17:41,561 --> 00:17:45,761 Speaker 1: he was in my mind, and I think most other detectives, 284 00:17:46,241 --> 00:17:50,481 Speaker 1: he was the number one suspect. We never found anyone 285 00:17:50,521 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: else that we believed had the motive or you know, 286 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,801 Speaker 1: she could have been abducted if she was walking into 287 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: town or something. Sure, but the history of Murray, in 288 00:18:05,201 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: my mind, he was the one and only suspect. And 289 00:18:10,561 --> 00:18:15,081 Speaker 1: I say that with a lot of evidence to corroborate 290 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:21,961 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The beatings that he gave her, the injuries, 291 00:18:22,241 --> 00:18:26,241 Speaker 1: she'd wring her parents. She'd run to the neighbors or 292 00:18:26,321 --> 00:18:29,761 Speaker 1: run into town or hitchhike into town, and she'd wring 293 00:18:29,801 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: her mum and dad, you know, come and get me, 294 00:18:32,721 --> 00:18:36,521 Speaker 1: throwing a chair, He's throwing me across the room, terrible things. 295 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: It was just so cruel. But he had her in 296 00:18:41,521 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: the palm of her hand, and they actually got married. 297 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,521 Speaker 1: And I think, how coercive and controlling is this, But 298 00:18:49,041 --> 00:18:53,961 Speaker 1: he actually chose her wedding dress and her shoes. That's 299 00:18:54,521 --> 00:18:58,321 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about about. So controlling. But what Lorraine 300 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: wanted to do. She'd always wanted to get married, like 301 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,321 Speaker 1: you know, most people want to be loved and want 302 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: to be in a relationship there in And Loraine always 303 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:09,961 Speaker 1: said to her mum and dad, she'd always go back 304 00:19:09,961 --> 00:19:14,041 Speaker 1: to him because she said, it's my fault. I made 305 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: him angry. I've got to make this work, you know, 306 00:19:17,201 --> 00:19:19,521 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, like God lover. 307 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: What's frustrating. 308 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,481 Speaker 2: Often in these situations there's victim blaming with that cliche 309 00:19:25,481 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: a question, well, why didn't she leave him? You've been 310 00:19:29,521 --> 00:19:31,561 Speaker 2: up close to these things, and you know why people 311 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: don't leave in these situations. And as she said, she 312 00:19:34,521 --> 00:19:37,201 Speaker 2: took on a feeling of blame. 313 00:19:37,921 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely she did, because he would continually tell her that 314 00:19:43,201 --> 00:19:47,321 Speaker 1: she was useless. He just put her down all the time, 315 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: to the point where I suppose you start to believe it. 316 00:19:50,961 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never been in that position, but I 317 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,441 Speaker 1: know so many people that have, and they do, they 318 00:19:56,481 --> 00:19:58,801 Speaker 1: start to think it's their fault. And that's what Loraine 319 00:19:58,801 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: would say, I made him angry. Mum and dad. The 320 00:20:01,761 --> 00:20:06,281 Speaker 1: poor darling, you know, you know it brings back such 321 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,801 Speaker 1: a sadness in my career. 322 00:20:09,921 --> 00:20:10,761 Speaker 3: I'm sure it does. 323 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,601 Speaker 2: And I mean so much circumstantial evidence, going to talk 324 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 2: like your senior sergeant here, So much circumstantial evidence, but 325 00:20:18,201 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: the direct evidence was lacking. I mean things like the 326 00:20:20,481 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: fact that it wasn't Murray who called the police to 327 00:20:22,961 --> 00:20:25,321 Speaker 2: advise she was missing, even though he was with her 328 00:20:25,321 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 2: every day. 329 00:20:25,721 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: It was her father. 330 00:20:26,961 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: And then the following day Murray goes to Sendling and 331 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: gets a single pension saying his wife left him the 332 00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:37,761 Speaker 2: day after she's been reported missing. Heavy circumstantial evidence, but 333 00:20:37,801 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: you've got nobody. When you're faced with this sort of 334 00:20:40,801 --> 00:20:45,241 Speaker 2: history and you've got someone who's now clearly indicating she's 335 00:20:45,281 --> 00:20:48,521 Speaker 2: not coming back, what does he know? How does it 336 00:20:48,521 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: feel as an investigator? 337 00:20:50,041 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: Bloody, frustrating, and it makes you want to dig just 338 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper because you just want to find that link. 339 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,321 Speaker 1: You want to find that nexus between let's say Hurry 340 00:21:05,481 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: and Lorraine. I believe he murdered her and he disposed 341 00:21:09,441 --> 00:21:11,881 Speaker 1: of her body. He knew the area where she went 342 00:21:11,921 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: missing like the back of his hand. He had grown 343 00:21:13,721 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: up in that area, so he would know areas like 344 00:21:17,441 --> 00:21:20,321 Speaker 1: you know Deisi Freeman. He knows the area like the 345 00:21:20,321 --> 00:21:24,001 Speaker 1: back of his hand. He knows areas that police will 346 00:21:24,041 --> 00:21:28,241 Speaker 1: never search or whatever. But to this day, no sign 347 00:21:28,281 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: of her. And like you say, the circumstantial evidence was overwhelming, 348 00:21:34,321 --> 00:21:38,521 Speaker 1: but we didn't have a body, and we had nobody 349 00:21:38,681 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: that saw her after I think it was the sixteenth 350 00:21:42,681 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: of July of that year. Her parents are the ones. 351 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: Her dad is the one that reported her missing, not Murray. 352 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:51,921 Speaker 3: That's right. 353 00:21:52,281 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: And by September, when you're full into the investigation, you're 354 00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,281 Speaker 2: discovering that Murray's pawning Lorraine's items, anything connected with her. 355 00:22:00,681 --> 00:22:05,761 Speaker 2: He's selling for cash. There is absolutely no remorse, there's 356 00:22:05,801 --> 00:22:09,041 Speaker 2: no compassion, there's no grief for his wife that's missing. 357 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: He's pawning her possessions. I mean, it's the kind of 358 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: thing that if you put before a jury, I'd probably 359 00:22:15,201 --> 00:22:17,481 Speaker 2: convict on. But to get to the court of appeal, 360 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 2: they're going to say, no, that's not beyond reasonable doubt. 361 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,561 Speaker 2: So I can see the dilemma. And I think these 362 00:22:24,681 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 2: days though, courts are more accepting of situations where there 363 00:22:28,201 --> 00:22:31,001 Speaker 2: isn't a body back then not the case. 364 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,281 Speaker 1: No, But even if you don't have a body. G 365 00:22:34,441 --> 00:22:36,961 Speaker 1: you've got to have a good case. You know, it's 366 00:22:37,001 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: not just I reckon he's done it and this is 367 00:22:39,681 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: what he's done. Like the evidence that we found in 368 00:22:43,921 --> 00:22:48,801 Speaker 1: relation to Murray, as we've said, it was overwhelming, but 369 00:22:49,441 --> 00:22:51,561 Speaker 1: you know, we couldn't find a body. In fact, it 370 00:22:51,681 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: had to go to a coroner's court for an inquest 371 00:22:55,921 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: for the coroner to actually say, I believe that Murray 372 00:23:01,481 --> 00:23:05,961 Speaker 1: Carter has murdered Lorraine and disposed of her body. Oh, 373 00:23:06,241 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: just the effort that we went to to try and 374 00:23:10,001 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: prove everything that Murray would say. You know, when we 375 00:23:15,281 --> 00:23:18,401 Speaker 1: were talking about you never make a promise you can't keep. 376 00:23:18,481 --> 00:23:22,481 Speaker 1: I did make one promise in this case, and it's 377 00:23:22,521 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: nothing I'm proud of, but it's how I became so 378 00:23:27,921 --> 00:23:33,521 Speaker 1: angry about how somebody could treat a vulnerable woman like Lorraine. 379 00:23:34,321 --> 00:23:37,041 Speaker 1: And I remember one time when we did a search 380 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,281 Speaker 1: warrant at Murray's house. I remember him sitting there and 381 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: I actually poked his chest and through my gritted teeth, 382 00:23:46,961 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to get you you. I think I said, 383 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: you f in prick, but I said I'm going to 384 00:23:51,721 --> 00:23:55,481 Speaker 1: get you you in prick. If it's the last thing 385 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: I do, and I remember poking finger att or like 386 00:23:59,761 --> 00:24:03,041 Speaker 1: that is just you just should never ever do that. 387 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:07,041 Speaker 1: And my emotions were just, you know, at boiling point 388 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: with him because I was just so disgusted with what 389 00:24:11,681 --> 00:24:16,241 Speaker 1: I learned about him. And you know what, I never 390 00:24:16,281 --> 00:24:17,481 Speaker 1: did get him. 391 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,881 Speaker 2: That was the twelfth of December two thousand and two, 392 00:24:21,241 --> 00:24:24,961 Speaker 2: when that search was conducted at the house. You turned 393 00:24:24,961 --> 00:24:27,641 Speaker 2: the place upside down, You took up floorboards, you took 394 00:24:27,681 --> 00:24:30,841 Speaker 2: the contents of the vacuum and everything you could possibly do, 395 00:24:31,321 --> 00:24:33,961 Speaker 2: but it yielded nothing that she could really take forward. 396 00:24:33,961 --> 00:24:34,441 Speaker 3: Is that right? 397 00:24:35,001 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: Pretty much? The only thing that we did find was 398 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:44,761 Speaker 1: a little calico bag that he said Lorraine had taken 399 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,321 Speaker 1: with her when she left, because that's what Murray said 400 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,561 Speaker 1: when everyone would ask. The local police attended the knight 401 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: that alan her father the night that he reported it, 402 00:24:54,521 --> 00:24:57,521 Speaker 1: tutos to the local police. The med to meter police 403 00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:01,041 Speaker 1: went straight around there, Murray where is she? And he 404 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: maintained until the day of his death that they'd had 405 00:25:04,721 --> 00:25:07,561 Speaker 1: an arm argument, that she just walked out of the 406 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: house and he never saw her again. He said she 407 00:25:11,201 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: took her mobile phone and he set a calico bag 408 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: and he explained the bag, and that's the one that 409 00:25:17,041 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: June had made her Well, in the warrant, we found 410 00:25:21,201 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: that Calico bag. Now, okay, it's a quarter of percent, 411 00:25:25,281 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, all those little one percentages. It still doesn't 412 00:25:28,721 --> 00:25:32,241 Speaker 1: prove that he's killed her. But you know, there was 413 00:25:32,281 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: a lot of little chinks in his story, but nothing 414 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: that we could ever prove. 415 00:25:38,041 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: Indeed, this is a hard story to read and to 416 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,241 Speaker 2: tell because I can see what impact it must have 417 00:25:43,281 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 2: had on you, because come July two thousand and three, 418 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,881 Speaker 2: Murray doesn't can come and confess. He doesn't tell anybody 419 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,801 Speaker 2: what he's done. He commits suicide, and he effectively blames 420 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,561 Speaker 2: you in a note that he left behind. 421 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that doesn't surprise me. I think he felt 422 00:26:00,041 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: about me as I felt about him. He didn't actually 423 00:26:04,041 --> 00:26:08,281 Speaker 1: name me, he said police, but I hadn't been particularly 424 00:26:08,281 --> 00:26:12,441 Speaker 1: professional with him. So but you know, from my point 425 00:26:12,481 --> 00:26:15,921 Speaker 1: of view, and I apologize to suicide is a terrible 426 00:26:15,961 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: thing for anybody to deal with. And Murray's got a family. 427 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: You know, there's people that they leave behind. But I 428 00:26:22,681 --> 00:26:26,281 Speaker 1: just felt it was a coward's way out with Murray. 429 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: He just I just don't understand if you're going to 430 00:26:29,681 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: do that, why wouldn't he say? And this is something 431 00:26:32,721 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: that's always stuck in my mind. He knew he was 432 00:26:35,721 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: going to end his life, why wouldn't he say, I 433 00:26:40,201 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: did do it? But he never did, And there's just 434 00:26:44,481 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of a niggle in the back of 435 00:26:47,241 --> 00:26:50,561 Speaker 1: my mind. If he did do it, why didn't he 436 00:26:50,681 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: say that in the note? But then again, being the 437 00:26:53,001 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: type of person he was, he'd probably never admitted anyway. 438 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:58,641 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's true. 439 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,321 Speaker 2: I've heard this time and time again from people like 440 00:27:01,561 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: Derek Ernest Percy, who killed many more people than he 441 00:27:04,321 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 2: was charged with too. He was the one that he 442 00:27:06,761 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: was convicted over, but he killed half a dozen more 443 00:27:09,201 --> 00:27:12,041 Speaker 2: at least, and he had the opportunity to say that 444 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: he did it on his deathbed. Plenty of chances to 445 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,321 Speaker 2: do that. I've seen cases where it's obvious that someone 446 00:27:18,521 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 2: is the killer but doesn't reveal the location of the body. 447 00:27:22,681 --> 00:27:24,681 Speaker 2: I think, excuse my friends, but it's a final fuck 448 00:27:24,721 --> 00:27:25,561 Speaker 2: you to society. 449 00:27:26,041 --> 00:27:28,321 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, because you only get. 450 00:27:28,241 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: Away with murder when you're dead. There's always someone like 451 00:27:31,201 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: you chasing, which is a good thing on behalf of 452 00:27:33,681 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 2: the community. So he took that to his grave. And 453 00:27:36,441 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 2: I think that's the great tragic, not just for the family, 454 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,281 Speaker 2: but for you who've invested so much in this that 455 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,841 Speaker 2: you can't take that final piece of information that Lorraine 456 00:27:44,961 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 2: is buried such and such a place and bring her 457 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: home to Mum and dad. 458 00:27:51,321 --> 00:27:54,721 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, as I said at the beginning, 459 00:27:55,441 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: and the sad thing is that Lorraine's never been found. 460 00:27:59,801 --> 00:28:05,521 Speaker 1: And her parents, Alan and June, they joined Vicvictims of 461 00:28:05,681 --> 00:28:10,801 Speaker 1: Crime Assistance. They went to all that missing persons rallies. 462 00:28:11,041 --> 00:28:18,041 Speaker 1: They did everything humanly possible to keep Lorraine's memory alive 463 00:28:19,001 --> 00:28:24,241 Speaker 1: because I believe that they will. They hoped that Lorraine 464 00:28:24,281 --> 00:28:28,521 Speaker 1: would be found before they passed away, and they didn't. 465 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: They went to their graves not knowing. And I just 466 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,921 Speaker 1: think it's sad after years, you know, they don't want 467 00:28:35,921 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: anyone to forget Lorraine. They was elderly by I don't know, 468 00:28:40,481 --> 00:28:43,761 Speaker 1: let's say ten years later. They were elderly, but they 469 00:28:43,841 --> 00:28:46,441 Speaker 1: didn't want to leave their house because what if Lorraine 470 00:28:46,481 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: came back. Isn't that sad? That that's the effect that 471 00:28:52,881 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: these sort of crimes have on the people that are 472 00:28:55,281 --> 00:28:56,001 Speaker 1: left behind. 473 00:28:57,521 --> 00:29:00,841 Speaker 2: For sure, even finding remains on the other side, of 474 00:29:00,841 --> 00:29:02,841 Speaker 2: the coin is such a resolution. I've just in a 475 00:29:02,881 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: case with the Victoria Police podcast that I make about 476 00:29:06,441 --> 00:29:08,641 Speaker 2: an ex serviceman who was trying to get back to 477 00:29:08,681 --> 00:29:09,601 Speaker 2: his family from Perth. 478 00:29:09,921 --> 00:29:10,921 Speaker 3: He perished in the desert. 479 00:29:10,961 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: His body wasn't found for thirty five years, and his 480 00:29:13,641 --> 00:29:17,121 Speaker 2: children always believed that he'd walked off on them, let 481 00:29:17,201 --> 00:29:20,161 Speaker 2: them down. So whenctives were able to bring the remains 482 00:29:20,161 --> 00:29:21,841 Speaker 2: back and say I'm told me sorry about your father 483 00:29:21,881 --> 00:29:24,081 Speaker 2: has passed away, at least they could say, well, he 484 00:29:24,201 --> 00:29:27,361 Speaker 2: was trying to get home. Whereas without the body, it's 485 00:29:27,441 --> 00:29:30,001 Speaker 2: such a oh, it's so unresolved. I think it would 486 00:29:30,001 --> 00:29:32,361 Speaker 2: be the hardest thing to adjust to. And there is 487 00:29:32,401 --> 00:29:35,921 Speaker 2: that feeling that perhaps they walk down the drive hope 488 00:29:35,921 --> 00:29:38,881 Speaker 2: against hope. And I've got half a dozen cases that 489 00:29:38,961 --> 00:29:42,081 Speaker 2: I cover and I always hope that there will be 490 00:29:42,081 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: a resolution. I've actually a little post note on my 491 00:29:44,521 --> 00:29:47,121 Speaker 2: wall here that says completion. It reminds me to look 492 00:29:47,161 --> 00:29:49,761 Speaker 2: back at those cases and keep making those phone calls, 493 00:29:50,081 --> 00:29:52,841 Speaker 2: do what you can. And I'm sure it's times ten 494 00:29:52,881 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: with a police officer who's not just telling a story 495 00:29:56,201 --> 00:29:59,601 Speaker 2: but trying to find evidence to convict somebody or to 496 00:29:59,601 --> 00:30:00,561 Speaker 2: bring somebody home. 497 00:30:01,281 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: And also you think, what have I missed? You know, 498 00:30:04,121 --> 00:30:08,841 Speaker 1: have I missed something obvious? All those questions, and just 499 00:30:08,881 --> 00:30:13,561 Speaker 1: as a little aside, I always remember every Monday, without fail, 500 00:30:14,161 --> 00:30:17,241 Speaker 1: Alan would ring me. The fineer'd go at eight thirty 501 00:30:17,281 --> 00:30:21,041 Speaker 1: am and it'd be Ellen and he was always so 502 00:30:21,281 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: upbeat and you know, hello, love, how's your weekend? Just 503 00:30:26,121 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, wondering if there's been any movement, you know, 504 00:30:29,361 --> 00:30:34,361 Speaker 1: and to actually say to somebody continually, we haven't been 505 00:30:34,401 --> 00:30:38,841 Speaker 1: able to find anything or know it, and then people 506 00:30:38,881 --> 00:30:42,681 Speaker 1: don't under why would they understand, but we are working 507 00:30:42,721 --> 00:30:45,321 Speaker 1: on I don't know. At the time, I was probably 508 00:30:45,361 --> 00:30:51,121 Speaker 1: working on god six or seven active missing person files, 509 00:30:51,161 --> 00:30:53,601 Speaker 1: the Rain being one of them. You know, you'd go 510 00:30:53,721 --> 00:30:55,881 Speaker 1: and do a bit on one file and do a 511 00:30:55,921 --> 00:30:58,281 Speaker 1: bit on another, but you try telling a parent of 512 00:30:58,321 --> 00:31:03,561 Speaker 1: a missing child on doing other jobs with other like 513 00:31:03,641 --> 00:31:06,761 Speaker 1: you just wouldn't do it. But oh I used them. 514 00:31:06,921 --> 00:31:10,481 Speaker 1: My heart used to sink eight thirty Monday morning. It 515 00:31:10,521 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: was Alan. 516 00:31:12,561 --> 00:31:14,601 Speaker 2: Yeah, But that is the reality that you've got several 517 00:31:14,601 --> 00:31:16,561 Speaker 2: files that you've got to work on, and you've got 518 00:31:16,561 --> 00:31:18,641 Speaker 2: to give everyone the same kind of attention. 519 00:31:19,161 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 3: But you did it. 520 00:31:19,761 --> 00:31:21,641 Speaker 2: Not just out of it because you had to or 521 00:31:21,681 --> 00:31:23,121 Speaker 2: a sense of duty. You did it because you love 522 00:31:23,161 --> 00:31:24,681 Speaker 2: the job and you love these people. I got to 523 00:31:24,721 --> 00:31:26,921 Speaker 2: tell you the fact that you went and attended the 524 00:31:26,961 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: memorial service twelve months after the rain's disappearance. 525 00:31:30,761 --> 00:31:33,241 Speaker 3: I guess you could be cynical and say, oh, maybe there's. 526 00:31:33,041 --> 00:31:34,841 Speaker 2: Some evidence to be had there, but I don't think 527 00:31:34,841 --> 00:31:35,681 Speaker 2: that's why you were there. 528 00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:40,681 Speaker 1: No, no, I went there. I haven't done that too 529 00:31:40,721 --> 00:31:42,641 Speaker 1: many times. In fact, the times I have gone to 530 00:31:42,641 --> 00:31:46,761 Speaker 1: a memorial service, as you say, it's like scanning the crowd. 531 00:31:46,841 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: Who's here. With Lorraine, it was nothing like that. Her 532 00:31:50,521 --> 00:31:53,601 Speaker 1: mum and dad asked me. I think June and Allen 533 00:31:54,481 --> 00:31:56,761 Speaker 1: sort of saw me as a quasi daughter in a 534 00:31:56,761 --> 00:31:59,841 Speaker 1: way because I was around the same age as Lorraine. 535 00:32:00,081 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: I just felt it's the least I could do. They 536 00:32:03,761 --> 00:32:06,481 Speaker 1: asked me to go, and I remember I sat right 537 00:32:06,561 --> 00:32:10,201 Speaker 1: up the back on my own and oh my goodness, 538 00:32:10,281 --> 00:32:13,801 Speaker 1: Alan said the most beautiful things about me in the 539 00:32:14,001 --> 00:32:19,241 Speaker 1: memorial and I was a blubbering mess up the back 540 00:32:19,321 --> 00:32:26,321 Speaker 1: of the church, and I was so embarrassed because it's 541 00:32:26,401 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: just me, you know, I just couldn't pretend to be 542 00:32:29,081 --> 00:32:33,321 Speaker 1: anything else. But I think they really admired me. They 543 00:32:33,401 --> 00:32:37,041 Speaker 1: respected me as much as I admired and respected them. 544 00:32:37,721 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: But as I keep saying, it was just I felt 545 00:32:40,481 --> 00:32:43,681 Speaker 1: such a failure. It's an awful feeling to live with. 546 00:32:46,121 --> 00:32:48,321 Speaker 2: But you remained in the job another ten years, I 547 00:32:48,361 --> 00:32:52,121 Speaker 2: think before you had to pull the pin. What were 548 00:32:52,201 --> 00:32:56,161 Speaker 2: those years like? Could you see that the experiences of 549 00:32:56,201 --> 00:32:58,241 Speaker 2: your service were taking their toll? 550 00:32:58,921 --> 00:33:01,961 Speaker 1: I don't think I could, Adam. I think I would 551 00:33:01,961 --> 00:33:06,401 Speaker 1: make excuses. I think I will say to myself, well, 552 00:33:07,161 --> 00:33:10,161 Speaker 1: of course I'm going to be tired and emotional in 553 00:33:10,201 --> 00:33:15,281 Speaker 1: those days. We do eighteen twenty hour days. Then you'd 554 00:33:15,281 --> 00:33:17,681 Speaker 1: have to be back at work the next day, so 555 00:33:17,881 --> 00:33:21,161 Speaker 1: you might be running on a couple of hours sleep. 556 00:33:21,281 --> 00:33:23,681 Speaker 1: You know, all you'd think about is what have I missed? 557 00:33:24,201 --> 00:33:27,521 Speaker 1: I mean, it became overwhelming, but I didn't see it 558 00:33:27,681 --> 00:33:31,001 Speaker 1: like that. And also I think I was pushing down 559 00:33:31,841 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: these feelings because I just loved it so much. It 560 00:33:37,241 --> 00:33:40,121 Speaker 1: sounds bizarre, doesn't it when we talk about these heart 561 00:33:40,161 --> 00:33:43,761 Speaker 1: renting cases. But I loved what I did. I loved 562 00:33:43,801 --> 00:33:48,321 Speaker 1: what I represented, I loved dealing with the people. And 563 00:33:48,961 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, I was always very honest never lied. But 564 00:33:52,041 --> 00:33:55,561 Speaker 1: I think people respected the fact that I didn't lie 565 00:33:55,641 --> 00:33:58,121 Speaker 1: and that if there was something difficult to say, I 566 00:33:58,161 --> 00:34:01,761 Speaker 1: would say it. But I put my head in the sand. 567 00:34:01,801 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: Looking back, the signs were there. I just couldn't accept it. 568 00:34:07,481 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: I think. 569 00:34:09,361 --> 00:34:13,601 Speaker 2: You were finally diagnosed in twenty twelve, and then that 570 00:34:13,681 --> 00:34:16,201 Speaker 2: was the end of your career. I mean, how was 571 00:34:16,241 --> 00:34:19,081 Speaker 2: that adjusting to the fact that you're now out of 572 00:34:19,081 --> 00:34:22,361 Speaker 2: the job that you loved, that had formed such a 573 00:34:22,401 --> 00:34:26,321 Speaker 2: strong part of your personality. How was the journey from 574 00:34:26,321 --> 00:34:29,281 Speaker 2: there and your healing horrendous? 575 00:34:29,321 --> 00:34:35,801 Speaker 1: Initially because I loved policing so much, and I realized 576 00:34:35,961 --> 00:34:39,201 Speaker 1: after going to a psychologist, my doctor is the one 577 00:34:39,241 --> 00:34:41,721 Speaker 1: that said I had PtSi, and of course I thought 578 00:34:41,721 --> 00:34:44,761 Speaker 1: he was the one that needed help, not me. He 579 00:34:44,881 --> 00:34:49,841 Speaker 1: was wrong. But it was after going to the psychologist 580 00:34:51,201 --> 00:34:55,281 Speaker 1: and talking to her it's when I realized, you know what, 581 00:34:55,441 --> 00:35:00,761 Speaker 1: I'm very sick. I went to austin the PtSi course, 582 00:35:00,881 --> 00:35:04,881 Speaker 1: which was a game changer. But initially I didn't want 583 00:35:04,921 --> 00:35:09,201 Speaker 1: to leave the house because I didn't want to see police, 584 00:35:09,321 --> 00:35:12,281 Speaker 1: like just to see a police car or hear a siren. 585 00:35:13,081 --> 00:35:16,401 Speaker 1: I just wanted to be there and I missed it terribly, 586 00:35:17,481 --> 00:35:21,281 Speaker 1: but also thank goodness, I had the foresight to listen 587 00:35:21,321 --> 00:35:25,881 Speaker 1: to the professionals because the psychologist I explained a situation 588 00:35:26,001 --> 00:35:28,601 Speaker 1: that had happened just before I actually went off sick. 589 00:35:28,601 --> 00:35:30,761 Speaker 1: And the reason I went to the doctor because I 590 00:35:30,801 --> 00:35:33,841 Speaker 1: had it like an amnesia event in court where I 591 00:35:33,921 --> 00:35:36,161 Speaker 1: just walked out of court. I'm informed in a buddy 592 00:35:36,241 --> 00:35:39,001 Speaker 1: rape trial and I'm in La La Land, across the 593 00:35:39,081 --> 00:35:42,681 Speaker 1: road having a coffee. I remember thinking to myself, pardon me, 594 00:35:42,721 --> 00:35:44,561 Speaker 1: but what the fuck am I doing over here? I'm 595 00:35:44,561 --> 00:35:47,681 Speaker 1: supposed to be running a committal. You know, I missed 596 00:35:48,441 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: everything about it. But then I started to realize how 597 00:35:52,561 --> 00:35:55,281 Speaker 1: damaged I was, and the sich said to me that 598 00:35:55,521 --> 00:36:00,681 Speaker 1: amnesia event in court. The next step was psych hospital 599 00:36:01,441 --> 00:36:05,001 Speaker 1: and that's when I thought, you know what, nothing is 600 00:36:05,201 --> 00:36:07,961 Speaker 1: worth that. It frightened me because I'd been to a 601 00:36:07,961 --> 00:36:10,561 Speaker 1: psych hospital a number of times as a police person, 602 00:36:11,121 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: and it is so confronting, so sad, horrifying, traumatic, every 603 00:36:16,961 --> 00:36:19,281 Speaker 1: word you can think of, and I thought, I'm not 604 00:36:19,481 --> 00:36:23,441 Speaker 1: going there, and so I trusted the professionals. And it 605 00:36:23,561 --> 00:36:26,481 Speaker 1: took me a long time to be able to I 606 00:36:26,481 --> 00:36:29,121 Speaker 1: didn't want to tell anyone that I was off work 607 00:36:29,201 --> 00:36:32,681 Speaker 1: because I was so embarrassed. I was so humiliated that 608 00:36:32,801 --> 00:36:37,201 Speaker 1: I had a mental illness. So I didn't see anyone, 609 00:36:37,241 --> 00:36:39,841 Speaker 1: and I had a lot of triggers. I didn't realize. 610 00:36:39,881 --> 00:36:42,281 Speaker 1: I didn't know what a flashback or a trigger was. 611 00:36:42,401 --> 00:36:45,801 Speaker 1: I had no idea. But after leaving, or when I left, 612 00:36:46,681 --> 00:36:49,161 Speaker 1: I couldn't even go and see little kids in a 613 00:36:49,201 --> 00:36:52,841 Speaker 1: playground or little kids running around. Everywhere you go there's kids. 614 00:36:53,601 --> 00:36:55,841 Speaker 1: That was a trigger for me because of what I'd 615 00:36:55,881 --> 00:36:59,881 Speaker 1: seen with the child abuse material. It's really strange, well 616 00:36:59,961 --> 00:37:03,121 Speaker 1: not strange, I won't go into it, but animals are 617 00:37:03,161 --> 00:37:06,241 Speaker 1: a trigger for me. What do you do? Everyone's got 618 00:37:06,241 --> 00:37:09,881 Speaker 1: a dog, most people have kids or grandkids or something. 619 00:37:09,961 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: So I found it easier to be on my own. 620 00:37:14,081 --> 00:37:18,881 Speaker 1: But then eventually, with the help of a psychologist and 621 00:37:19,201 --> 00:37:22,201 Speaker 1: the fact that I was away from policing, as difficult 622 00:37:22,241 --> 00:37:27,361 Speaker 1: as it was, I think that time away helped me. 623 00:37:27,801 --> 00:37:31,241 Speaker 1: Now I can talk about any job you want, but 624 00:37:31,361 --> 00:37:36,161 Speaker 1: initially I couldn't even think of them. But that's how healed, 625 00:37:36,401 --> 00:37:38,081 Speaker 1: I suppose I am. I don't think I'll ever be 626 00:37:38,561 --> 00:37:41,961 Speaker 1: one hundred. Well I won't because I still have terrible nightmares. 627 00:37:42,641 --> 00:37:45,401 Speaker 1: That's something that you know I have to live with. 628 00:37:45,641 --> 00:37:50,881 Speaker 1: But now I feel like telling the world about what 629 00:37:51,081 --> 00:37:53,521 Speaker 1: I didn't want to tell anybody because I kept it 630 00:37:53,561 --> 00:37:55,761 Speaker 1: all in myself. And that's I think what an issue 631 00:37:55,841 --> 00:37:59,481 Speaker 1: it was is that you see some such terrible things 632 00:37:59,881 --> 00:38:01,921 Speaker 1: that you don't want to bring, Like I didn't want 633 00:38:01,921 --> 00:38:04,921 Speaker 1: to bring my husband, my sisters, my friends into that world. 634 00:38:05,121 --> 00:38:07,601 Speaker 1: So you keep a lot of it, you absorb it. 635 00:38:08,281 --> 00:38:12,241 Speaker 1: But it was to my detriment, and now I want 636 00:38:12,281 --> 00:38:15,841 Speaker 1: to tell the whole body world about what I had too. 637 00:38:16,521 --> 00:38:18,761 Speaker 2: And you're doing an amazing job, and I that's off 638 00:38:18,801 --> 00:38:22,201 Speaker 2: to you. What do you think was a turning point 639 00:38:22,281 --> 00:38:25,521 Speaker 2: that there was one towards resolving your injury and getting 640 00:38:25,521 --> 00:38:27,721 Speaker 2: to a stage where I mean, it's obviously going to 641 00:38:27,721 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 2: be a scar t issue because just the job will 642 00:38:30,481 --> 00:38:36,001 Speaker 2: carry those scars, let alone the debilitating nature of ptsis, 643 00:38:36,041 --> 00:38:36,961 Speaker 2: I'm now going to call it. 644 00:38:37,521 --> 00:38:42,401 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the main thing that I had to 645 00:38:42,441 --> 00:38:45,921 Speaker 1: do to get better was the hardest thing. I had 646 00:38:45,961 --> 00:38:51,321 Speaker 1: to accept that I had a mental illness. And until 647 00:38:51,361 --> 00:38:57,441 Speaker 1: you accept that there is something wrong, something that needs attention, 648 00:38:57,881 --> 00:39:02,081 Speaker 1: you're never going to fix it. So I honestly think 649 00:39:02,121 --> 00:39:08,081 Speaker 1: I took probably eighteen months away from the job to 650 00:39:08,121 --> 00:39:14,121 Speaker 1: be able to accept pardon me, I fucked. You know. 651 00:39:14,681 --> 00:39:18,641 Speaker 1: I had to be able to be able to accept that, 652 00:39:18,881 --> 00:39:24,081 Speaker 1: and that's not easy. Once I accepted that I had 653 00:39:24,121 --> 00:39:28,761 Speaker 1: been very, very sick, nearly admitted to a psych hospital, 654 00:39:29,681 --> 00:39:33,441 Speaker 1: That's what I think. The main turning point was probably 655 00:39:34,721 --> 00:39:40,401 Speaker 1: that came from attending the Austin hospital, the PtSi clinic. 656 00:39:41,321 --> 00:39:44,161 Speaker 1: That's where I was with another eight I think it 657 00:39:44,241 --> 00:39:47,801 Speaker 1: was police people. They did some pretty intensive work there, 658 00:39:48,241 --> 00:39:53,121 Speaker 1: and it was just how did I ever do this? 659 00:39:53,321 --> 00:39:56,441 Speaker 1: Like some of the I remember with work cover, I 660 00:39:56,521 --> 00:40:00,041 Speaker 1: went to a psychologist that they sent me to, and 661 00:40:00,121 --> 00:40:02,921 Speaker 1: I remember telling the psychologist one job that I've been 662 00:40:03,001 --> 00:40:08,001 Speaker 1: to and she actually said to me, Neelle, I'm sorry, 663 00:40:08,041 --> 00:40:11,321 Speaker 1: I can't deal with you anymore. That was also a 664 00:40:11,361 --> 00:40:16,001 Speaker 1: bit of a wow, this must be bad when I 665 00:40:16,041 --> 00:40:20,961 Speaker 1: told somebody what I was experiencing. For a psychologist or 666 00:40:21,041 --> 00:40:25,001 Speaker 1: psychiatrist to say I can't deal with this, Wow, that 667 00:40:25,121 --> 00:40:28,321 Speaker 1: was a real moment as well, I think, But it's 668 00:40:28,361 --> 00:40:33,601 Speaker 1: definitely accepting that I was unwell, but also listening to 669 00:40:33,641 --> 00:40:37,841 Speaker 1: the professionals. I did a lot of things that I thought, 670 00:40:38,641 --> 00:40:42,801 Speaker 1: this is madness. If anybody saw me doing this, they'd 671 00:40:42,841 --> 00:40:46,241 Speaker 1: think I was definitely heading for a psych hospital. But 672 00:40:46,441 --> 00:40:49,561 Speaker 1: I listened to the professionals. I did everything they said 673 00:40:49,601 --> 00:40:52,281 Speaker 1: because I desperately wanted to get back. But the longer 674 00:40:52,321 --> 00:40:55,761 Speaker 1: I was away, the more I realized how damaged I was. 675 00:40:56,681 --> 00:41:00,041 Speaker 2: I've never seen the stigma around meddlems because my dad 676 00:41:00,081 --> 00:41:03,321 Speaker 2: was a psychiatrist. I literally grew up around this and 677 00:41:03,441 --> 00:41:06,761 Speaker 2: him discussing this stuff. He'd say, people will go to 678 00:41:06,801 --> 00:41:08,761 Speaker 2: the hospital for a broken arm, but they won't go 679 00:41:08,801 --> 00:41:10,321 Speaker 2: to the hospital for a broken mind. 680 00:41:10,681 --> 00:41:12,281 Speaker 3: He couldn't understand it, and that was. 681 00:41:12,241 --> 00:41:14,201 Speaker 2: One of his frustrations, and I think he used to 682 00:41:14,281 --> 00:41:16,401 Speaker 2: absorb a lot of this sort of trauma. 683 00:41:16,841 --> 00:41:18,361 Speaker 3: I'm not sure how he resolved it. 684 00:41:18,401 --> 00:41:20,681 Speaker 2: But listen, You've had an amazing career, and I really 685 00:41:20,681 --> 00:41:23,921 Speaker 2: want to thank you for sharing this so openly. And 686 00:41:24,521 --> 00:41:27,121 Speaker 2: we have a lot of young people who are considering 687 00:41:27,481 --> 00:41:30,721 Speaker 2: careers in police and it's a difficult job now because 688 00:41:30,721 --> 00:41:33,241 Speaker 2: people don't want to join up. They're struggling to get 689 00:41:33,441 --> 00:41:36,001 Speaker 2: people in. What advice would you give to young people, 690 00:41:36,481 --> 00:41:38,921 Speaker 2: I guess, particularly women who are considering a career in 691 00:41:38,921 --> 00:41:41,721 Speaker 2: policing and how to manage these issues which will surely 692 00:41:41,801 --> 00:41:44,441 Speaker 2: be there because most of you you're being paid to 693 00:41:44,441 --> 00:41:46,841 Speaker 2: put yourselves in harms way, I. 694 00:41:46,761 --> 00:41:52,201 Speaker 1: Think to accept that you are going to be exposed 695 00:41:52,881 --> 00:41:57,401 Speaker 1: to some very traumatic incidents, to a lot of sadness 696 00:41:57,401 --> 00:42:01,401 Speaker 1: and a lot of grief. But I think that everybody, 697 00:42:01,601 --> 00:42:07,641 Speaker 1: every police person, should see a professional psychiatrist or psychologist. 698 00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:12,001 Speaker 1: More than a psychiatrist, but to see somebody professional, maybe 699 00:42:12,041 --> 00:42:16,761 Speaker 1: once a month, once every six weeks, just to talk 700 00:42:16,801 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: to somebody about how you're feeling, and to learn the 701 00:42:21,561 --> 00:42:26,761 Speaker 1: signs that I ignored, the signs that I ignored. I 702 00:42:26,841 --> 00:42:29,961 Speaker 1: got to the point where I began shaking a lot, 703 00:42:30,281 --> 00:42:32,561 Speaker 1: to the point where I couldn't read my own writing. 704 00:42:32,601 --> 00:42:35,121 Speaker 1: If I'd pulled over motorists for something, or I went 705 00:42:35,201 --> 00:42:39,201 Speaker 1: knocking on a pedophile's door, which happened a lot, I 706 00:42:39,281 --> 00:42:44,961 Speaker 1: got very anxious. I would shake really bad. I was 707 00:42:45,201 --> 00:42:47,921 Speaker 1: sleeping of a night time. I think I call it 708 00:42:47,961 --> 00:42:52,561 Speaker 1: an irritable leg but what happened was my legs would 709 00:42:52,601 --> 00:42:55,481 Speaker 1: shake so much that it would wake up my husband. 710 00:42:56,081 --> 00:43:00,001 Speaker 1: And again, because I didn't want to tell anyone, I 711 00:43:00,001 --> 00:43:02,881 Speaker 1: didn't know what was happening. Myself, you know, keep it 712 00:43:02,921 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: a secret. So there was a shaking. The anger. Oh 713 00:43:07,001 --> 00:43:09,881 Speaker 1: my god, Adam, the anger. I am not an angry person, 714 00:43:09,961 --> 00:43:13,161 Speaker 1: but I got to the point where I felt like 715 00:43:13,201 --> 00:43:16,401 Speaker 1: my head was going to burst. But if I would 716 00:43:16,441 --> 00:43:22,481 Speaker 1: have been educated and maybe seen somebody very early on regularly, 717 00:43:23,601 --> 00:43:27,041 Speaker 1: might have been able to recognize these signs and do 718 00:43:27,161 --> 00:43:29,881 Speaker 1: something about it. But I had no idea what was 719 00:43:29,921 --> 00:43:32,841 Speaker 1: going on. I just thought, this is what happens when 720 00:43:32,841 --> 00:43:34,841 Speaker 1: you're a police person, you know, you see this sort 721 00:43:34,881 --> 00:43:36,681 Speaker 1: of stuff. Of course I'm going to get tired. Of 722 00:43:36,681 --> 00:43:38,041 Speaker 1: course I'm going to get emotional. 723 00:43:39,281 --> 00:43:42,121 Speaker 2: Well, it's all very good advice, Norell, and I want 724 00:43:42,121 --> 00:43:43,961 Speaker 2: to thank you for sharing your stories today, and I 725 00:43:44,001 --> 00:43:46,081 Speaker 2: think this is very useful for people indeed, So thanks 726 00:43:46,081 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 2: for your time. 727 00:43:47,241 --> 00:43:48,961 Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure. 728 00:43:53,081 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 2: Noel Fraser, what an amazing career. We do ask our 729 00:43:56,841 --> 00:44:00,001 Speaker 2: police people to put themselves in harm's way, and it's 730 00:44:00,041 --> 00:44:03,081 Speaker 2: only recently that we're starting to appreciate the toll of that. 731 00:44:03,281 --> 00:44:07,241 Speaker 2: And when you look at that case, Lorraine Joy Carter 732 00:44:07,521 --> 00:44:11,001 Speaker 2: and Norel's inability to close that one, the red hot 733 00:44:11,041 --> 00:44:13,321 Speaker 2: suspect to be turning back and saying was the police 734 00:44:13,361 --> 00:44:15,761 Speaker 2: that made him take his own life is very hard 735 00:44:15,761 --> 00:44:17,841 Speaker 2: to take for a police officer. I'm sure that contributed 736 00:44:18,161 --> 00:44:20,241 Speaker 2: to Norell's problems, and it's great to see she's come 737 00:44:20,281 --> 00:44:23,001 Speaker 2: back and she's sharing these stories for the benefit of everyone. 738 00:44:23,561 --> 00:44:27,441 Speaker 2: But Lorraine's case remains open. In my opinion, that someone's 739 00:44:27,441 --> 00:44:31,561 Speaker 2: still out there, may have some information that could help Norell, 740 00:44:31,601 --> 00:44:33,921 Speaker 2: even though she's out of the job now to close 741 00:44:33,921 --> 00:44:36,161 Speaker 2: that one. If you have any information, why don't you 742 00:44:36,201 --> 00:44:38,921 Speaker 2: call crime stoppers? Why don't hundred triple three, triple zero. 743 00:44:39,041 --> 00:44:42,281 Speaker 2: All information is treated as confidential. If you don't trust 744 00:44:42,321 --> 00:44:44,721 Speaker 2: the cops, you can always send me an email Adam 745 00:44:44,761 --> 00:44:48,161 Speaker 2: Shanned writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit there 746 00:44:48,281 --> 00:44:51,601 Speaker 2: and not say anything, say something. Come forward as always 747 00:44:51,641 --> 00:44:55,281 Speaker 2: someone who knows something that can close these cases. Even 748 00:44:55,321 --> 00:44:59,041 Speaker 2: though her parents are gone, she deserves it. This has 749 00:44:59,041 --> 00:45:08,881 Speaker 2: been Adam shanf for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.