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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome to Big Business, the

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Speaker 1: place where business is far from boring, and today I'm

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Speaker 1: recording on gaddigul Land. Now, I somehow managed to build

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Speaker 1: an empire from the garage underneath my house and I'm

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Speaker 1: here to share it all with you, from the wins,

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Speaker 1: the mistakes, the challenging times and the funny moments in between. So,

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Speaker 1: whether you're in business already, perhaps you're not in the

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Speaker 1: game at all, Maybe you're just looking for some inspo,

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Speaker 1: or you simply just want to hear the tea, this

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Speaker 1: is the podcast for you. Today's guest has been fighting

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Speaker 1: one of the most wild David versus Goliath battles in

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Speaker 1: Australian business history, and she finally won. Katie Perry, the

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Speaker 1: Sydney based fashion designer, had been selling clothes under her

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Speaker 1: own name since two thousand and seven when in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine a cease and desist letter from a

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Speaker 1: certain global pop star landed in her showroom and changed everything.

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Speaker 1: Seventeen years, multiple court battles and one landmark High Court

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Speaker 1: ruling later, she's still here, still trading under her name,

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Speaker 1: and the trademark stays on the register We're talking about

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Speaker 1: what it actually takes to back yourself when the odds,

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Speaker 1: the fame, and the legal firepower are stacked against you.

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Speaker 1: I've been really excited to say this, but Katie Perry, Welcome.

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Speaker 2: To Big Business the OG.

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Speaker 1: Katie Perry. I'm so excited to have you on. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've heard about you and your journey a

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Speaker 1: lot over the years because you started your business, was

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Speaker 1: it back in two thousand and seven?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, back in two thousand and seven, so I've been

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Speaker 2: trading for nearly twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Were well done, by the way, I thank you.

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Speaker 2: Particularly, I mean someone who works also in fashion. You

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Speaker 2: know it's not for the faintheart, it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's business is not easy, full stop, no matter what

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Speaker 1: you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, and I think even more so fashion.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, so almost twenty years, you're going to do

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Speaker 1: something like exciting to celebrate twenty years, well, which is

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Speaker 1: what we'll talk about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've just had this massive win. The focus

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Speaker 2: has always been about that. But definitely next year, I'm

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Speaker 2: planning some celebrations because I think it's important. Otherwise you

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Speaker 2: just kind of move from one thing to the next.

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Speaker 1: It's so difficult to stop and remember to celebrate when

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Speaker 1: you're in business, because you'll achieve one thing and then

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Speaker 1: you're just already onto the next.

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Speaker 2: It's onto the next thing, and even more so in

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Speaker 2: fashion because you're like, Okay, that collection's done, now I

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Speaker 2: need to do that exactly it.

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Speaker 1: I never sold out of that. It is never ending,

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Speaker 1: never ending. So you started your business back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven and Katie Perry the brand, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my name.

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Speaker 2: So I actually wanted to be a fashion designer since

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Speaker 2: I was eleven. Yeah, so at the time I was

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Speaker 2: living in Bangkok and I designed the piece for the

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Speaker 2: school dance. It was like a little off the shoulder

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Speaker 2: black top, hot pink tie silks, a little like ruffel skirt.

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Speaker 2: Remember this was back in the eighties. So showing my

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Speaker 2: age and always wanted to be a fashion designer. Worked

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Speaker 2: in all different fields, and my family history is actually

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Speaker 2: in fashion. So my great grandfather there was a wool merchant, okay,

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Speaker 2: and my mom opened the first Benetton Brothers. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you know Benetton clothing. So it was massive

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Speaker 2: a long time. Agoo Benetton. They were all about diversity,

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Speaker 2: They had incredible advertising and she opened the first Benetton

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Speaker 2: store in London. Okay, but you're probably a little bit

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Speaker 2: too younger to know about Beneton and it actually it

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Speaker 2: used to be here in Australia okay, and then they

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Speaker 2: closed up, but now it's still quite bigger in Europe.

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Speaker 2: So as it's very much fashion is in my DNA.

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Speaker 2: It's like kind of part of who I am. And

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Speaker 2: then decided, you know, to make the big leap and

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Speaker 2: start my own brand. Used my birth name, which is

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Speaker 2: what a lot of designers use their own name when

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Speaker 2: they're starting right.

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Speaker 1: And was very organic, you know.

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Speaker 2: I started every Saturday at pattingto markets.

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Speaker 1: Wow, before like we had all the tiktoks and Instagrams

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Speaker 1: and way before, and like what did you have a

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Speaker 1: website back then? Was it just in person to begin with?

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Speaker 2: No, I had a website as well. Okay, it was

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Speaker 2: so expensive. It was like six grand to start the website.

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Speaker 2: And did you have to have someone else build it

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Speaker 2: for you or yes, you had to have somebody else

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Speaker 2: the shopify or anything, you know. I mean nowadays it's like, god,

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Speaker 2: it's so easy. Yeah, I don't to say just how

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Speaker 2: easy it is so easy side Yeah, but back then

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Speaker 2: you had to spend a huge amount of money and

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Speaker 2: have someone do like all the coding. If I wanted

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Speaker 2: to change any aspect of.

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Speaker 1: It, literally, like if you wanted to update a photo,

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Speaker 1: did you have to give them the photo and can

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Speaker 1: you put this on this product?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And can you change this part of it? It

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Speaker 2: was just very clunky and hard to do. But right

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Speaker 2: from the beginning I knew that online was where I

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Speaker 2: wanted to be as well as in person, and still

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Speaker 2: to this day, in person is very important to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, So you started out in the market, started

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Speaker 1: with an online store that someone else had to code,

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Speaker 1: and then how far into your journey did this whole

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Speaker 1: scenario come up with Katie Perry? And by the way,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about Katie Perry, the famous pop star. That's right.

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Speaker 2: So think back two thousand and nine. I'd actually just

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Speaker 2: launched my first showroom okay, this studio Moss. When we've

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Speaker 2: just done this amazing like launch party, I came back

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Speaker 2: to clean up. There was like empty champagne bottles everywhere

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Speaker 2: and had gone to the post office. Yeah, picked up

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Speaker 2: this really thick envelope and sat down and I can

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Speaker 2: feel it now like going back to that moment opening

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Speaker 2: up the envelope and pulling out these papers, and it

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Speaker 2: said cease and desist, stop sale of your clothes, stop

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Speaker 2: your website, and stop any advertising material. And this is

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Speaker 2: going to go to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: And this is from Katy Perry's team.

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Speaker 2: This is from Katy Perry's legal team. And I burst

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Speaker 2: into tears.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have, like you would have broken down completely.

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Speaker 1: What am I gonna do? Like I'm going to lose everything?

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Speaker 1: And you're two years into your business. Two years in

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Speaker 1: of a.

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Speaker 2: Business that has always been my dream since I was eleven, Blood,

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Speaker 2: sweat and tears, you know, that startup few years but

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Speaker 2: as you.

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Speaker 1: Know, you were all in like say, you're a lot

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Speaker 1: and you're doing everything when it's everything yourself and.

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Speaker 2: Had big plans for the brand as well, and was

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Speaker 2: just so shocked and up.

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Speaker 1: And thought, oh my god, what am I going to do? Yeah? Wow?

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Speaker 1: And like at this point, like do you have a

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Speaker 1: team working with you when you're two years in? Like

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Speaker 1: did you have employees or were you just solo? At

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Speaker 1: that time? It was solo.

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Speaker 2: I think I had a couple of interns. Oh my no,

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Speaker 2: that was just it.

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Speaker 1: And so back then did you have any kind of

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Speaker 1: trademark registered or anything. Yes, Oh I did.

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Speaker 2: I had the trademark for clothing, which is Class twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And that's when it all came back to that. It

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Speaker 2: was like, I have done everything that the government told

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Speaker 2: me to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeap, You've got your abn ab, got your trade business name.

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Speaker 1: I've got my trademark. Do I feel like back then,

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Speaker 1: that's really good for you to have had, you know,

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Speaker 1: considering I think even now people start businesses and they

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Speaker 1: don't understand the importance of having a trademark or they think, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm never gonna need that exactly. I think it's great

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Speaker 1: that you had it.

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Speaker 2: You know what. The only reason I did it is

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Speaker 2: because I was studying at must have been evening college,

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Speaker 2: like a business like tafe course, and I was doing

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Speaker 2: that with another friend and he was starting up a

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Speaker 2: streetwear label, okay, and so we were kind of on

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Speaker 2: these journeys together and so like anything I would do,

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Speaker 2: he would do, anything he would do, I would do.

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Speaker 2: And then he said, I think you should get the

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Speaker 2: trademark for Katy Perry, the word in case you want

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Speaker 2: to change your logo. That was the reason. Just wo,

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I don't want to get If

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Speaker 2: you trademark a logo, you then if you change your

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Speaker 2: logo you then have to get another trademark for it, right,

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Speaker 2: So he was like, just get.

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Speaker 1: It for the word.

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Speaker 2: Then if you change the logo, you change colors, you're

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Speaker 2: not having to constantly get another trademark.

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Speaker 1: So it's because of your friend back then.

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Speaker 2: Because of my friend back then, Like thank you and

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Speaker 2: no sham envat yeh, shout out, and you had the trademark.

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Speaker 1: But Katy Perry was still unhappy with that. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: what was the argument? I guess, ah.

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Speaker 2: Look, they were actually at the time, they were two things.

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Speaker 2: That was sending that cease and desist, and then they

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Speaker 2: were also opposing the trademark.

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Speaker 1: And I guess with the.

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Speaker 2: Hopes, I mean, it's hard for me to really know,

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Speaker 2: but i'd imagine that with the hopes of who knows

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Speaker 2: what she was going to go and do in the future.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's hard for people to remember

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Speaker 2: this was back in two thousand and nine. She wasn't

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Speaker 2: well known, she wasn't a household name like she is.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I first heard her song I kissed

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Speaker 2: a Girl and I liked it. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: there's another Katy Perry. Not really my type of music,

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Speaker 2: but I'm gonna buy a song on iTunes to show

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Speaker 2: her my support because I was like, that's awesome. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: very different. She sends me seats and desist letters and you're.

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Speaker 1: Like, I just bought yourself on iTunes. Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: And so do you think back then, obviously this was

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Speaker 1: going back a while ago, did you think this in

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Speaker 1: their minds was, well, we're gonna send this letter. And like,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes when people get a cease and desist letter, they

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Speaker 1: will absolutely shit themselves and they will back out of

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. Definitely, did you think that they thought

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Speaker 1: the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what And that's what happens a

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Speaker 2: lot of the times, particularly for small businesses, is you

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Speaker 2: get very threatening, bullying, intimidating letter from lawyers and you

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Speaker 2: think like, oh my god, how am I going to

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Speaker 2: fight this. I'll just give up, I'll change the name

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Speaker 2: or just let it go. Whereas I am very values

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Speaker 2: driven and one of my values is about truth and

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Speaker 2: justice and standing up for myself, and all the way

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Speaker 2: through that, I was like, no, like you matter, I matter,

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Speaker 2: You're not more important than I am. And I have

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Speaker 2: done nothing wrong. I've done exactly what the government tells

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Speaker 2: me to do. I'm not just going to hand over

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Speaker 2: my trademark just because you're.

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Speaker 1: A pop star. And so what was your thought in

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Speaker 1: that moment when you got that letter, like who did

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Speaker 1: you call? Who did you go to? And was your

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Speaker 1: thought immediately I'm not going to back down and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to fight this or did you have moments of

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Speaker 1: oh shit, maybe I should just throw in the towel

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Speaker 1: and change the name.

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Speaker 2: Not at that time, No, I was definitely like this

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Speaker 2: is ridiculous. I haven't you know again, I haven't done

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Speaker 2: anything wrong. I remember calling my mom and my stepdad

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Speaker 2: and like crying, and then I spoke to I was

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Speaker 2: working like two jobs at the time, and I spoke

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Speaker 2: to one of the boss and she she was like, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: actually one of my clients is a lawyer. Why didn't

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Speaker 2: you go in the city and have a chat with him?

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Speaker 2: And so I did, and I didn't. I didn't understand

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Speaker 2: about lawyers, like if they charge by the minute, like seven,

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Speaker 2: and if you're.

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Speaker 1: Sitting there crying, it's like, oh no, I didn't realize that.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, how long did the meeting go for It

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Speaker 1: was like an hour.

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Speaker 2: And he said to me, look, you've got a really

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Speaker 2: good case, but unless you have twenty grand to fight

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Speaker 2: this emailsall shut up shop now. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm a small business. I'm doing padding to markets. I

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Speaker 2: don't have twenty grand and if I did, it would

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Speaker 2: all go into my stock. It's not going to go

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Speaker 2: into a lawyer's pocket. And again I remember coming back

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Speaker 2: from that city and just being like, this is ridiculous

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Speaker 2: and crying. And then a friend had a journalist at

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Speaker 2: the Australian newspaper and he's like, look, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I can help you, but let me put you

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Speaker 2: in touch. And then the journalist came and because that's

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Speaker 2: the power I had, I had the media, and so

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I need to let

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Speaker 2: everybody know what's happening, because this is so unfair and

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't be having to go through this, and neither

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Speaker 2: should anybody else. And so it was at one page

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Speaker 2: in the Australian newspaper and funny enough, the next morning

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Speaker 2: that paper came out and I got a call from

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Speaker 2: her lawyers. But that was the first time they had

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Speaker 2: reached out to me at all.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because and that's when the media can be incredibly powerful,

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Speaker 2: particularly for like these grassroots, the everyday person that doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a big entourage behind them. Exactly right, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't have lawyers on staff. I'm not a big business,

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Speaker 2: small business.

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Speaker 1: I still am.

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Speaker 2: I still might have like laws just sitting in an

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Speaker 2: office waiting. So then we had ten weeks of just

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Speaker 2: absolute hell.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, what did it look like? Back and

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Speaker 1: forth with letters, back.

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Speaker 2: And forth with calls very threatening. I then I changed lawyers.

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Speaker 2: At one point, I got like a legal aid one

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Speaker 2: who started off being like, yes, I've got your back

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Speaker 2: and like we can do this. And he was just

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Speaker 2: getting each and alive by her lawys. And I remember

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Speaker 2: going into a meeting and he just said, oh, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I think you should just like just let

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Speaker 2: this go, Like who are you?

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Speaker 1: She's a big pop star. But once you're in it, right, like,

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Speaker 1: you can't really back out because once you made that decision,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to fight this, are you? Then just in

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Speaker 1: it like there's no turning.

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Speaker 2: Back, no looking at any point, like I could have

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Speaker 2: backed out at any point for me though, again I'm

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Speaker 2: just very values driveven. I was like, no. It kept

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Speaker 2: on for seventeen years. It has come back to this

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Speaker 2: point of like I have done nothing wrong, exactly right,

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Speaker 2: not right, and that we all matter. You know, I

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Speaker 2: mattered just as much as a pop star. Matters were

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Speaker 2: just as much as a janetor like we are all,

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Speaker 2: we all matter, and my business is just as important as.

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Speaker 1: Her business, exactly right.

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Speaker 2: So then two thousand and nine, back and forth, I

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Speaker 2: went to a point where I was actually going to

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Speaker 2: represent myself, which was crazy. No. And then and you'll

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Speaker 2: really appreciate this rip because I know you're all over

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Speaker 2: social media through the power of Facebook. Yeah, I said

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Speaker 2: that I was going to represent myself and trademark lawyer

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Speaker 2: in Australia put no sorry in the UK, put me

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Speaker 2: in touch with a trademark lawyer in Australia and she

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Speaker 2: said she's let me put you in touch with her.

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Speaker 1: She'll help you.

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Speaker 2: So she came on very very last minute, and then

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Speaker 2: we were about to go to court and two hours

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Speaker 2: before the court case they withdrew their opposition.

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Speaker 1: What and this is in two thousand and nine. This

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Speaker 1: was in two thousand and nine. This is when it's

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Speaker 1: just fresh, and it's just fresh. They pulled out, pulled out.

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Speaker 1: That was the end.

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Speaker 2: So for me, I was like, amazing. I remember I got.

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Speaker 1: You think and it's all over. It's all over.

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Speaker 2: I've got my trademark. I still have it now, it's

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Speaker 2: all like in a beautiful frame. I went to a

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Speaker 2: lunch to celebrate. My lawyer was like, here is your trademark.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeay, I.

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Speaker 2: Can now focus on my business and where it's going

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Speaker 2: and back, you know, it was back to business. During

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Speaker 2: all that time. I was still there at Paddington Markets

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Speaker 2: every Saturday, and I remember even my mum coming and

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Speaker 2: she's like, everybody wants to talk to you, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I am so tired.

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Speaker 1: Because of the media in being in the paper, obviously

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Speaker 1: people were then supporting you in this battle. So then

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Speaker 1: when you're at the Paddictine Markets, did you have people

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Speaker 1: coming up being like we saw you in the.

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Speaker 2: Mad Yeah, which is so amazing and funny enough. I

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Speaker 2: actually I'm back now at Rocks Markets and I just

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Speaker 2: just this weekend did the Rocks Markets Yeah, and had

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Speaker 2: the same thing, people coming.

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Speaker 1: Up being like that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Case I have a selfie with you like high five,

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Speaker 2: we love you, which is fantastic, and moral support is lovely.

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Speaker 2: Financial support is even better.

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Speaker 1: And you gotta all give me a dollar? Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: If everybody could come and just buy one of my things,

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Speaker 2: that would be even more amazing. But it's also quite

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Speaker 2: It can be quite draining as well, and particularly at

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Speaker 2: that time, because I had had so much fear of like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm going to lose my business, what

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Speaker 2: will I then do? I was really exhausted from it.

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Speaker 2: But it's a small business, Like I said, it was

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Speaker 2: just me. So I was like, I can't not go

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Speaker 2: to the market because that was my livelihood exactly right.

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Speaker 2: And that's what happens with small business, Like you can't

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Speaker 2: just be like, you know what, this has all been

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Speaker 2: so intense, I'm just going to have like a six

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Speaker 2: month's breakdown.

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Speaker 1: You can't. You got to keep going. You just got

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Speaker 1: to keep pushing through two thousand and nine, this thing

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Speaker 1: kicked off. You got your big fat letter in the mail.

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Speaker 1: Then in two thousand and nine they pull out, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you think, yay, it's all over. I can just

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Speaker 1: keep going. Then what happened.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I did. I just kept on focusing

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Speaker 2: on the business building it up. I ended up from

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Speaker 2: Paddington Markets, having like a shop in Paddington. I went

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Speaker 2: over to Perth and during period of time, people would

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Speaker 2: like send me photos of clothes with like Katie Perry

351
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Speaker 2: on them in Target or caught it on and they'd

352
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Speaker 2: be like, is she allowed to do that because don't

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Speaker 2: you have the trademark for clothing.

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, she does, but I can't do it.

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Speaker 1: She was coming out with collections with other retailers, yes.

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Speaker 2: So not just merchandise like pajamas and T shirts, and she.

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Speaker 1: Did all her perfumes and everything.

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00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 2: Perfumes fine, because that's not different category, different category. But

360
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 2: I had the trademark for clothing, which she is supposed

361
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 2: for Katie Perry, which is the whole reason you get

362
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 2: a trademark is to protect your brand.

363
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:10,440
Speaker 1: Yes.

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00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, I can't really do anything

365
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 2: about it. I know she's breaking Australian law.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

367
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 2: And then I went to I have two little kids,

368
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 2: and I went to a creative Mumma's event and was

369
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Speaker 2: talking about my story and there happened to be another

370
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 2: fashion designer there who also knows how tough the industry

371
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 2: is yep. And she afterwards was like that was incredible

372
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 2: what you're having to go through. And I can't believe

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Speaker 2: she's breaking Australian law.

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Speaker 1: You know what.

375
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Speaker 2: My husband's cousin is a trademark lawyer. I'm going to

376
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 2: put you in touch. And I was like okay, and

377
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 2: he put me in touch and he said, look, I

378
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 2: can't do this pro bono, but have you heard of

379
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,120
Speaker 2: litigation funding? And litigation funding is it's quite new to

380
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 2: Australia and basically what they do is they look at

381
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 2: like funding a case. It happens a lot with like

382
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 2: class action cases. And I was like, I had no,

383
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 2: I've never heard of litigation fund and he's like, well

384
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 2: that's let's see what we can do. Ok So then

385
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: I took her to a court, right, and so I've said

386
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,400
Speaker 2: you're breaking Australian law and you're actually breaking and knowingly

387
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: breaking my trademark.

388
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,199
Speaker 1: Wow, you kicked it back then, I kicked it back up.

389
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 1: That is a boss move if I've ever seen one.

390
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 1: And so what year was that that you kicked it

391
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 1: back off again?

392
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 2: So really like twenty nineteen okay, which also when it

393
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 2: all like came back up again because it took quite

394
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 2: a long process and when we officially sent them the

395
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 2: letters that you're breaching my trademark is I had been

396
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 2: pregnant during that time, and I then had a three

397
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 2: month old baby. And why I tell you that is

398
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,160
Speaker 2: because when it all kicked off, I have never had

399
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,159
Speaker 2: to deal with trolling before. You know, I kind of

400
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: had this beautiful cotton industry where like just lovely customers.

401
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,440
Speaker 1: And this is like twenty nineteen. Katie Perry is full famous.

402
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 2: Full famous, household name. Everybody knows she has her you know,

403
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 2: kitty cat fans or you know, a real like group

404
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 2: of fans who just love and adore her.

405
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: Is that what her fans are called? Kitty cat? I

406
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 1: think so, I think they're called Katie cats.

407
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 2: Oh, Katie cats, kitty cats, Katie cats. I focus on

408
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 2: her and it got really nasty. And I had a

409
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 2: three month old baby, had a two year old and

410
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 2: a three month old baby, and super vulnerable during that time,

411
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 2: really sensitive, and I hadn't you know, I didn't even know,

412
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,480
Speaker 2: Like now, I know you can.

413
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:32,360
Speaker 1: Filter out words.

414
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,399
Speaker 2: So someone says something horrible, I was like, well, that

415
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 2: word won't be coming up on my Instagram, but none

416
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 2: of that, And it was during the day in Australia.

417
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 2: I would get amazing supportive messages. I'd go to sleep

418
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,200
Speaker 2: and overnight in like South America bizarly and also in America,

419
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 2: just nasty, nasty comments about me, about my kids. Then

420
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 2: they would attack anybody that would support me.

421
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,959
Speaker 1: It was really literally, don't know you from a barbs

422
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: so horrible. It's just because of your.

423
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,120
Speaker 2: Name, just because of my name, and just because they're

424
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, such loyal fans. Yeah, to her, it was

425
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 2: really that was really really tough, and a lot of

426
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 2: people said, you know what, just like don't look at

427
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 2: it or delete it, which is all very well, but

428
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 2: to delete it you still need to read it exactly.

429
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 1: And were you able to use any of that in

430
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 1: evidence in fighting your case that you were like getting.

431
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,679
Speaker 2: Terrible No, that that didn't really come up. Yeah, that

432
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: didn't really play into it unfortunately.

433
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think you would be able to to be

434
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 1: like I'm being like relentlessly harassed by the fans of

435
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 1: this other person.

436
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think, But I think and that's the

437
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: thing with the legal system, it is very focused just

438
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 2: on like whatever the case is. So for this case,

439
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,920
Speaker 2: it was just the trademark. Yeah, it's just all it's

440
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 2: very black and white. This is about the trademark case

441
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,959
Speaker 2: in Australian law. So then I went through a brutal

442
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 2: cross examination as well, which was just horrific.

443
00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: That.

444
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,400
Speaker 2: Oh, it was just horrible. So nobody prepared me. I've

445
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 2: never been to court before and this is you remember

446
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 2: we're coming out of COVID times. So I remember even

447
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 2: in court having to wear the mask. I could only

448
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 2: have one support person with me, and they even the

449
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 2: other side pushed back originally on me even having a

450
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 2: support person.

451
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: And so when you were going to court like this

452
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: is in COVID times, when you've brought the case back

453
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: to life again essentially like you had to go physically

454
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: into court in Sydney. Yes, and then they were obviously

455
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 1: on the other side of the world. So no, she

456
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: has her team of lawyers here, okay, So it was

457
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: all there and they were just representing her. Obviously she

458
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 1: wasn't there. No, she wasn't there. Her manager okay came

459
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: at one point. Wow, this would have been so like interesting,

460
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, to know that it's like a big superstar

461
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: and you're just going to court to fight against them.

462
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 2: Well, it's like very David and Goliath. Yeah, like the

463
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: little person against How.

464
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: Did you feel like in that moment, Like did you

465
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: feel like you obviously were confident enough to kick it

466
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: back up again and go and fight, you know, rightfully

467
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: so because you had the trademark, But did you have

468
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: those moments of like what am I actually doing? Am

469
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: I better off because you are the quote unquote smaller

470
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: you know in the David and Goliath, did you have

471
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: any moments of like why am I bothering? Or were

472
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 1: you just feel confident the whole way through? I wasn't confident.

473
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 2: There was never moments of like why bother? There was

474
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: definitely moments of like this is so big, this is

475
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: a lot for one person. Like even when I had

476
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: to give evidence, I had to spend hours and hours

477
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 2: trolling through any time I've mentioned her all of my

478
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: marketing from like two thousand and seven, and I don't

479
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: have an entourage that I could just pass that on to.

480
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 2: Even going to court, it's like I was there in

481
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: the witness stand. I was there every day in court,

482
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 2: not somebody else to represent me, and I found that

483
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: part was really hard, whilst also juggling little kids and

484
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 2: still trying to you know, run my business.

485
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: Like how was that mentally, because like we said at

486
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 1: the start of this episode, business is hard. Like it's

487
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: hard on a normal day when everything's going well or

488
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: like pretty well, but then to like be fighting this

489
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: huge legal battle but still trying to stay positive within

490
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: your business, I can only imagine that's like gonna take

491
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: its toll on you.

492
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 2: It definitely did, And I think I've found the things

493
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: that worked for me. So I really got into running

494
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: nice like exercise and movement with really important meditation, but

495
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: even like five minutes, you know, sometimes I'd be super

496
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: anxious and I'd be like, Okay, I'm going to meditate

497
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: now for fifteen minutes, and I'd just sit there, like

498
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 2: not being able to stop, and I was like, Okay,

499
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: one minute is fine today, that's enough. And really having

500
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: a really good support crew about me, like my mom,

501
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 2: Like thank goodness for her, because there has been times

502
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: when we've been at the dinner table and I've just

503
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 2: been crying and been like this is just so much

504
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: and I feel so alone in this, and then she

505
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: would be like, look, you know, remember why you're doing this.

506
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 2: I'm here for you, and it's like, Okay, kind of

507
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: dust yourself off, get back at it, which I think

508
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: is also a message for even just running a small business.

509
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: To be honest, there are days when you're like, what

510
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: am I doing?

511
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,719
Speaker 2: This is so hard, and then you have to go

512
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: back and like why am I doing this?

513
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: Why did I start?

514
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: And even yeah, mate, like even when you said, oh,

515
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: couldn't you have just rebranded?

516
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: But then the.

517
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 2: Whole thing is like, and I haven't done anything wrong, exactly,

518
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: why should I have to be the one to rebrand

519
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: and spend a huge amount of money rebranding and started

520
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: your reputation again? And funny enough, I was at a

521
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: talk with someone who did have to rebrand.

522
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: So she had her brand was.

523
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: Uber Kate, and then Uber came after her and she's

524
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: very similar. She'd been trading for like twenty years and

525
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: then she rebranded and she said, Katie, everyone thinks that

526
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 2: it's really easy just to rebrand, but like I have

527
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: to start. It's like starting all over again. It's really

528
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: difficult to do. And she's like, just you know, keep fighting.

529
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: And that's why I was kind of doing this more

530
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: for all the small businesses, you know, for every small

531
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: business that gets a threatening letter that says like, well,

532
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: we're a big conglomerate and we're going to squash you.

533
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, no, keep fighting exactly.

534
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: Be that role model of just and also for Australian law,

535
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: like our trademarks that's there, they should be there to

536
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: protect small business and also large business. If I just

537
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 2: was like, oh, well you're a big business, you can

538
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: just have my trademark.

539
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: Exactly, what was the point. But I think that's how

540
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: it would work a lot of times as people just go,

541
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: well I don't have the money, I'm way too small,

542
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: and they just cave to that first letter.

543
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: Oh definitely, And it's threatening, you know, they count me

544
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: in very threatening and very bullying and there is a

545
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: lot of intimidation around it. Yes, but I hope also

546
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: my message and my story shows that people you don't

547
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: have to just buckle on the first if you can

548
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: fight it. Yes, it's hard, but like it's so worth it.

549
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: And so like you kick this thing back off. In

550
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and thought, no, I'm not going to allow

551
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: her to sell clothes in Australia with Katie Perry written

552
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: on it because I own that trademark for the fashion

553
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: what is it? The clause.

554
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the class twenty fiast. Yes, it was about like

555
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 2: your breaching my trademark exactly right, and awareness and they

556
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: were aware of it because they fought me in two

557
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, so they couldn't say like, oh, we

558
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: had no idea about you.

559
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: Exactly right. And so throughout COVID and throughout twenty nineteen,

560
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, it's just a full on legal battle back

561
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: and forth, yeah, pretty much.

562
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: So then then we went to court, then the primary judge.

563
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: So it took fifteen months for that verdict to come out.

564
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so slow. The wheels of justice moved very slowly. Yeah.

565
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: And also, like I was, my lawyers were like, oh,

566
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: the verdict will come out within a year. So I

567
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: put like in my calendar, you know that date, and

568
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: I remember calling them. I think it was like the

569
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: twenty seventh of January or like I called them on

570
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: that date that it was like a year. I was like, well,

571
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: a year's up, we don't have the verdict, and they're like, oh, no,

572
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: it'll just come out when she never rides ready for it.

573
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: To come out.

574
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: And it's like, this is just such a different world

575
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: to the world that I live in. Imagine me saying like, Okay,

576
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: that dress will come out just when I just it

577
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: might be a year, it might be two years, but

578
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: it'll just come out when I decide. Yeah. So it's

579
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: a very different world to the world that I live in.

580
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 2: And that came out and she said that yes, they

581
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: had breached my trademark, offered like additional damages, and then.

582
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: Of course the singer appealed that.

583
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 2: But what was even worse is so you're given a

584
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: time frame for the appeal to go through, and so

585
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: again I remember I put it in my diary, like

586
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: this is the last day that she can appeal the

587
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: judgment and tell.

588
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: Me they did it on that day.

589
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: No worse, they did it the next day.

590
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: Are they so not?

591
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: Legally you're not supposed to. But I remember like getting

592
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: so on the day I was like, oh, they haven't appealed.

593
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: This is amazing. I can focus on the future. And

594
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 2: then the next day I remember looking at my phone

595
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: and my kids with like in the loungry. My husband

596
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: just came home. So it was late at night and

597
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: my lawyer messaged me and emailed and he said, you know,

598
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: they've appealed.

599
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: I always leave it to the last day. It's still strategy.

600
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: You know, this is strategy. I hate that. Just say

601
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: it now, like exactly if you last day appeal.

602
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: And then I was like, but it's they're a day late,

603
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: and he said, look we can fight that, but again

604
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: with everything like that's more costs and then you're having

605
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: to go to court again. But that part was really

606
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 2: horrible and I because I think like, oh my god,

607
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: I'm having to go back into this like we've just won.

608
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: And I remember actually going I left the house because

609
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: I didn't want my kids to see how upset I was,

610
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: and I walked down the street sobbing, absolutely sobbing.

611
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: But what she appealed the fact that she kind of lost.

612
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she appealed the primary judgment. So then then

613
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: what so then you have to go back to court

614
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: again again, the whole thing over all over again.

615
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: Yep.

616
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: So then they're looking at different aspects of the case,

617
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: three judges, and then that verdict came out and that

618
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: was a really horrible type this is November and I'm

619
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 2: saying these dates to you, so it was like end

620
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: of November, brit because you understand with retail November December,

621
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 2: that's your crazy month. You're trying to make up as

622
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 2: much money as possible. It's busy, and they'd canceled my trademark.

623
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: What yeah, hell so they yeah, well that's that's even

624
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 2: to this date, I'm like, how you can cancel a

625
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: trademark that i'd been using and.

626
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: To inspire or anything, No, not due to expire.

627
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: The legal system is a very weird system. And they

628
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: said that her reputation was much bigger than mine, and

629
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: then there's a clause.

630
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: But that's not got anything to do with anything.

631
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: That's what I've a trademark, seems should that matter. It's

632
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: a very simple case because I have the trademark, I've

633
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: been using it constantly and continually, and nobody had again

634
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: prepared me for that. And then they said, oh, so

635
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: your trademark's canceled, and by the way, you'll it'll be

636
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: on the registry for another two weeks and then.

637
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: It's that's it. How is that even? So?

638
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: Then I would have two weeks in the middle of

639
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: my crazy season to rebrand or to close the business, like.

640
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: Sell all your stock to get rid of it, exactly.

641
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: And I was just looking at all my stock, with

642
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: all my sewing labels and thinking like, oh my god,

643
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: I would have to unpick all of these labels. I

644
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: would have every swing tag I would have to just burn.

645
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: You know, I'm all about sustainability, So to like add

646
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: that to landfill that was really horrible, time awful.

647
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: Awful And is this this what year? Is this just

648
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: for the timeline because said November?

649
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is November, so twenty.

650
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes twenty four?

651
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, it's all like because it's been going

652
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: on for such a long time, and also because each

653
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: verdict has taken you know, from fifteen months.

654
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: To six months.

655
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, every it's been such a long process. So this

656
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: was yeah, November twenty twenty four, yep. And then luckily

657
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: we we did a request to go to the High Court.

658
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: So even when you go to the High Court, you

659
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: actually have to get special leave, so you have to

660
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 2: go to the court again and say that this is

661
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: there's a special case and special reasoning for us to

662
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: actually be allowed to go to the High Court. So

663
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: that was also pivot or moment of like will we

664
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: be allowed to go to the High.

665
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: Court or two weeks to sort this shit out?

666
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: Well, we got two weeks to say that we're going

667
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: to be going to the High Court. Okay, then I

668
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: had a little bit of buffer time, okay, And because

669
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: so then we didn't go to we got special even

670
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: the February of twenty twenty five and usually just last year,

671
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: just last year, but only like I think it's five

672
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: to seven percent of cases actually go to the High Court,

673
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: So there's a chance that we could have gone in

674
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: front of those three judges and they gone, no, this

675
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: won't be allowed.

676
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: End of story.

677
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: So each time it's kind of been like these crossroads

678
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: and these like mountains to climb and be like am

679
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: I going to win? Am I going to lose? What

680
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: will I then do? And then last year, so twenty

681
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: five September, I've got this time frame well and truly

682
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: down we went to the High Court in Canberra, yep,

683
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: and that's in front of five judges. And then I

684
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: mean again like all of these aspects of like completely

685
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: out of my comfort zone.

686
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: How are you feeling at that point?

687
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: Like September last year, September much better than I was

688
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: than November previously. That November I was really broken because

689
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: then it was like, oh, everything I fought so hard

690
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: for and this trademark that I've been protecting for all

691
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: these years has now been canceled.

692
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: That's crazy.

693
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: So the High Court was more you know, again I'm

694
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: out of my comfort zone. I've never been to the

695
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: High Court. I'd actually never been to Canberra.

696
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: Before, if you could believe that.

697
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: Didn't go there for a primary school excersion, so missed out.

698
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: So that was my first experience even in Canberra. Yeah.

699
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: And then yeah, just recently we got the verdict.

700
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: Wow. And so I saw your video like pop up

701
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: on my TikTok. I think it was, and I think

702
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: you must have posted it in like two parts. Like

703
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: the first part I think it was like you waiting

704
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: to see the results, and then the second part was

705
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: you like it just came through in an email, right, yeah, yeah,

706
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: just an email. So sitting so I was told, why

707
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: didn't your lawyer call you? Or like does it have

708
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: to be an email?

709
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well I think I mean they have to send

710
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: through the email because it also has the verdict attached

711
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: to it, which has you know, this was ninety nine pages.

712
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: And was your heart just absolutely racing in that moment? Yeah?

713
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: I mean I think you could see in the video

714
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: like down and I'm pacing and I had little notes

715
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: from my kids, and one of them had written, like,

716
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: you're so brave, mummy, keep fighting Katherine Hudson because that's

717
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: the pop singer Katy Perry. Her actual name is Katherine Hudson.

718
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: So in our household we call it Katheryn Hudson, which

719
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: is actual.

720
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: And you want to know what, Like the whole funny

721
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: thing with this is like, it's your name at the

722
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: end of the day, Like if you were some person

723
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: that had started a random business called Katy Perry and

724
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: it was almost in spite of Katie Perry when she

725
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: was an up and coming pop star, maybe that would

726
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: be a different story, please, But it's the fact that

727
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: it's just your name that you used to start your business.

728
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: That's the bit that gets me exactly.

729
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: And my mom would be like, I'm so sorry I

730
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: called you Kate.

731
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: Why couldn't you called me something else?

732
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,959
Speaker 2: But the thing is, like I loved my name and

733
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: that's why I called my label that, like I'm so

734
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: proud of like Katy Perry. You know, people would be like,

735
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: what's your name? What's your label, Katy Perry?

736
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: Like I loved it.

737
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: Otherwise I would have chosen another name. And it's different,

738
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: like it's so different now to when I was starting out,

739
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: Like now she is a household name two thousand and seven,

740
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: she wasn't she was seeing like she was Katherine Hudson.

741
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

742
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: So it's and I think sometimes people get confused around that.

743
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: It's like very different times.

744
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 1: Exactly right, and so talkers through. I guess the moment

745
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: when that email came through that was so amazy.

746
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: So we're at the dining table, My mom and like

747
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: stepdad were there like assistant, and then I was just

748
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: refreshing because it just comes through an email.

749
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: They tell you, like what time to expect the email.

750
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they said around ten, okay, So I was like refreshed.

751
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: You're refreshing from like nine to fifty.

752
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: Much refreshed, refreshed, refreshed. But you also like, is this

753
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: going toa Am I gonna be doing this for an hour?

754
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: Am I going to do this for like ten minutes?

755
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: And then it came in and in the.

756
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: Email was the subject if you want or not? Or

757
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: did you have to like click into the email and

758
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: then read it.

759
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: I clicked into the email, but all he said was

760
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: we won. Yeah, and the relief I was just and

761
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: that's when I'm jumping up and I'm like a jumping

762
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: goosebumps now, jumping up and down so excited. You know,

763
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: I was crying like my mom and I are hugging. Yeah,

764
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: And it was pure elation and joy and just that

765
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: like David in your life moments, you know, it's like, oh,

766
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: this little.

767
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: Guy won exactly.

768
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 2: And I think also in a world at the moment

769
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: where we are in chaos and it's all like negative

770
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: story and you feel like the bigger players are controlling

771
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: our world. Yes, it was nice just to be like, no, like.

772
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: We matter, yeah, you know, like the little guy or girl, like.

773
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: We all we all matter, like a grassroots matter. And

774
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: it was just such a good, good story for all

775
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: of us. And that's what I've been now finding when

776
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: people come up to me, like I get stopped in

777
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: the streets now and people are like I read about you,

778
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: go you like, I love your story, you know, people

779
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: like I'm so proud if you like really kind of

780
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 2: taken ownership, like ah, Ozzie Katie.

781
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's so amazing.

782
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: It really means a lot to me because there has

783
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: been so many dark moments where I thought, oh, I'm

784
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: so alone in this and that has just proved that

785
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: it's not and it's never just been about the name.

786
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: It's been so much more exactly right, Well, congratulations, yeah,

787
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: thank you massive feet and win like and you know,

788
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: I can only just imagine how you feel now, especially

789
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: given that like this kind of all started back in

790
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine and it's kind of been a

791
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: part of your business journey through all of those years.

792
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: I feel like now you most likely will feel like

793
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: you can close that chapter and move on from it

794
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: and like enter a new era of your business without

795
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: having that like lingering over you like a cloud. Exactly.

796
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: I can imagine that's how it felt, maybe like a

797
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: storm just instantly lingering at all.

798
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: I felt weirdly like, oh, I just felt on my

799
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 2: right side, like just it was always just there, yeah,

800
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 2: you know, just kind of like a heaviness to it.

801
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: And then now I can start focusing on the future

802
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: and even little things like when I would buy like flyers.

803
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: You know, obviously it's cheaper to buy ten thousand flies

804
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: than it is to buy five hundred, but I was

805
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: constantly having to buy small amounts because I thought.

806
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: Oh I might in case you have to destroy it.

807
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, exactly, and again I'm about to sustainability, so I

808
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: don't want it to end up in landfill. And just

809
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: over the weekend, like I'm completely sold out. I don't

810
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: have any more flyers left because I was having to

811
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: buy small amounts, and so on Friday, I was.

812
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: Like, great, you can do you buy the order of

813
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: your fly exactly.

814
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: And on my swing tags, and you know, I can

815
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: really start focusing where I want to go with the business.

816
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 2: I can say yes to wholesale opportunities exactly.

817
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: Have you felt like you've had to hold back in

818
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: so many instances? Definitely, I've been in like whole journey

819
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: in limbo and even like particularly with wholesaling. A lot

820
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: of times people have asked me, would you like wholesale

821
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: is like I can't because if I lose, I'd have

822
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: to then take all of that stock back about juicicle nightmare,

823
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: an absolute nightmare. Whereas now I'm like, oh great, I

824
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: feel like I can just.

825
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 2: Say yes to so much more and that this brand

826
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: can represent yeah, bigger and better. And you know, now

827
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: I started saying like, come along, wear your values, be

828
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: part of the story, and that this brand can yeah,

829
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: just get bigger. Wow.

830
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: What an amazing story. What would you say has been

831
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: like the biggest lesson out of all of it, if

832
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: you could pinpoint it down to one thing. I'm sure

833
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: you've learned a billion things, but what's the biggest takeaway

834
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: from going through this. Get a trademark. That is a

835
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: great piece of advice, because I'll tell you what, when

836
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: I started my business, I didn't get a trademark. Because

837
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: this is eight and a half years ago. I'm in

838
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: my early twenties, and I'm like, I don't even know

839
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: how to do tax properly, you know. So I knew

840
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: nothing about trademarks and I got it, but it took

841
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: me a few years to get and I was lucky

842
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: to be able to get it when I did, and

843
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: I was already a few years into my business journey.

844
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: So I think that is a great tip for business

845
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: owners out there, even if you are a small little

846
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: guy and you just buy yourself and you're like, I

847
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 1: don't think I should get it because it might cost

848
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: a thousand and something dollars and it's a bit of

849
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: an expense. I think it's worth it. And your story

850
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: is a great example of that of the power of

851
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: having that trademark definitely.

852
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: It's so important and look, it is scary. You can

853
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: obviously there's lots of amazing trademark lawyers out there, but

854
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: you can also do it yourself.

855
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can apply literally through like the official I

856
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like IP Australia in Australia. Yeah,

857
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: don't go through one of the third party you want

858
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: when you google like get a trademark, there'll always be

859
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: like some sponsored ads at the top and they're like

860
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: third party company. Yes, don't they cross like triple thems.

861
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: Go through like the official IP Australia website exactly.

862
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: And if you need help, get like a trademark lawyer. Yes,

863
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: small business, and make sure you're doing it in the

864
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: right class because that is the.

865
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: Master of everything.

866
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: And again also think that's when you also need to

867
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: think about your future, like what other classes you know,

868
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: are you going to do fragrance or shoes or are

869
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: you going to do you know, leather belts and yeah,

870
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: while like cover those classes, make sure you cover those classes.

871
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 2: But the most important thing is get a trademark because

872
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 2: it does protect you and my story shows.

873
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: That absolutely well. Katie Perry, thanks so much for coming

874
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: on Big Business I love saying that. Who was I

875
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: talking to you yesterday? I said, I'm interviewing Katy Perry

876
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: and they thought I meant like the Australia Yay Perry,

877
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: the real Katy Perry. You're right, well, we always end

878
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: every Big Business episode with the tip of the week,

879
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: but I feel like you've just given it to us.

880
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: Get that trademark. Even if you feel like you're just

881
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: the smallest little fish in a massive pond, I think

882
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: like that's an amazing tip. Do you have any other

883
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: tips you want to share with us?

884
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: And also just back yourself? Yes, you know, I think

885
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: for anybody starting a business, it is really hard, that

886
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: entrepreneurial journey. It's like a freaking roller coaster. But it's

887
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: really important to back yourself. And this case and even

888
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: my business has really taught me that just keep backing

889
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: yourself and have support network.

890
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: But if you've got nobody like, have yourself back, you

891
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: gotta be a number one fan. Definitely.

892
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: I always say, like for your own hero.

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00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: Exactly right. Well, thank you so much for coming on

894
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: and sharing your story. Where can everyone find you? And

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00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: Katie Perry?

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00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's Katiperry dot com dot aus get the

897
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: website and that's Katie. You can also find me at

898
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: the Rocks Markets. I'm them every second weekend, so go

899
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: on to my Instagram if you're not too sure. But

900
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: it's a lovely markets because it's all small business, it's

901
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: all artisan.

902
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: I'll have to come do yeah, come by. I'll have

903
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: to come down one weekend. I'll make a weekend of

904
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: it a faith. I don't want to do a fate

905
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: pop up. I'm too busy as it is. But amazing,

906
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: and so you're online at the moment and at the

907
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: Rocks Market and at the Rocks Market, it's amazing. Yeah,

908
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much again, and it's such an amazing

909
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: and inspiring story

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00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: So thank you for sharing it with Thank you so

911
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: much for having me on your show.