1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:07,110 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,470 --> 00:00:11,280 Sean Aylmer: The gap in superannuation between men and women in Australia 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:16,410 Sean Aylmer: is pretty confronting. Statistics vary, but the Workplace Gender Equality 4 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:20,040 Sean Aylmer: Agency puts the gap at around 40%. According to the 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,270 Sean Aylmer: Australian Human Rights Commission, this situation is even worse. So 6 00:00:24,270 --> 00:00:27,570 Sean Aylmer: what can be done to improve retirement savings for women? 7 00:00:27,810 --> 00:00:30,300 Sean Aylmer: I wanted to look at both the reforms needed and 8 00:00:30,300 --> 00:00:34,110 Sean Aylmer: the strategies women could consider to help boost their superannuation 9 00:00:34,110 --> 00:00:37,500 Sean Aylmer: before retirement. Of course, this is general information only, for 10 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,470 Sean Aylmer: education purposes. If you hear anything today that might be 11 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:43,080 Sean Aylmer: relevant to you, you should speak to a professional financial 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,659 Sean Aylmer: advisor who can help determine your own needs and the 13 00:00:45,659 --> 00:00:49,260 Sean Aylmer: best strategy for you. Canna Campbell is a financial planner and 14 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:53,760 Sean Aylmer: the founder of financial literacy platform, SugarMamma. TV. If her 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,370 Sean Aylmer: name sounds familiar, it's because Canna is the co- host 16 00:00:56,370 --> 00:00:59,160 Sean Aylmer: of How Do They Afford that, our sister podcast, which 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Sean Aylmer: comes out every Wednesday, looking at personal finance, investing, saving, 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,580 Sean Aylmer: budgeting and the like. Canna, welcome to Fear and Greed. 19 00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:08,670 Canna Campbell: Hello. Lovely to connect with you. 20 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:12,270 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, look, just how bad is the gender gap when 21 00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:13,260 Sean Aylmer: it comes to super? 22 00:01:13,770 --> 00:01:18,149 Canna Campbell: Look, it is really serious. The Australian Human Rights Commission have done 23 00:01:18,150 --> 00:01:22,140 Canna Campbell: some research and have found that half of women aged 24 00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:29,100 Canna Campbell: between 45 and 59 have less than $ 8, 000 in superannuation, which 25 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:29,970 Canna Campbell: is very sobering. 26 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:34,229 Sean Aylmer: It's actually hard to think in 2023 that that can 27 00:01:34,230 --> 00:01:39,510 Sean Aylmer: be the case. Is it because of breaks in work? 28 00:01:40,110 --> 00:01:42,600 Sean Aylmer: Why is the number so low given we've had compulsory 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,940 Sean Aylmer: super since, well, at least 20 years? 30 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,280 Canna Campbell: Look, raising children obviously comes into it, whether you stepped out 31 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,950 Canna Campbell: of the workforce for an extended period of time or 32 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:56,880 Canna Campbell: maybe returning back on a part- time basis. And yes, 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,890 Canna Campbell: children obviously are a big factor in here, but there 34 00:01:58,890 --> 00:02:00,840 Canna Campbell: are also a lot of women who have actually stepped 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,419 Canna Campbell: out of the workforce to care for elderly parents or 36 00:02:03,420 --> 00:02:07,830 Canna Campbell: family members. And we have the salary gap, and we also need 37 00:02:08,130 --> 00:02:10,860 Canna Campbell: to take into consideration for women who have stepped out 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,400 Canna Campbell: or are working on a part- time basis, sometimes their 39 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,350 Canna Campbell: value in particular industries starts to reduce because they're not 40 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:21,690 Canna Campbell: up to speed or the systems have changed or there's 41 00:02:22,020 --> 00:02:25,500 Canna Campbell: new legislation and so forth. So there are lots of 42 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:29,160 Canna Campbell: things that come into this and a cause of this. 43 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:32,910 Canna Campbell: And also, I think there's an issue with society. If 44 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:36,690 Canna Campbell: my son is sick at school, the school will most 45 00:02:36,690 --> 00:02:41,669 Canna Campbell: likely call the mother first before the father, and that's 46 00:02:41,669 --> 00:02:45,419 Canna Campbell: the mother that has to leave the office, go and 47 00:02:45,419 --> 00:02:47,760 Canna Campbell: pick the child up, keep the child at home until 48 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,010 Canna Campbell: they're well enough to return back to school and also 49 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,150 Canna Campbell: not catch that contagious germ at the same time. So 50 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:57,930 Canna Campbell: we've also got to change society's, I guess, point of 51 00:02:57,930 --> 00:03:01,230 Canna Campbell: view and a way of attacking this problem and taking 52 00:03:01,230 --> 00:03:03,150 Canna Campbell: maybe a more balanced approach. 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,950 Sean Aylmer: Now, obviously this is a stark ... In fact, it's scary 54 00:03:07,950 --> 00:03:10,410 Sean Aylmer: what it means on an individual level. On an economic 55 00:03:10,410 --> 00:03:13,110 Sean Aylmer: level though, it's pretty scary as well because if we 56 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:16,440 Sean Aylmer: have so many people who haven't got enough money for 57 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,169 Sean Aylmer: retirement, be they men or women, that's going to hurt 58 00:03:19,169 --> 00:03:20,160 Sean Aylmer: the economy big time. 59 00:03:20,580 --> 00:03:24,839 Canna Campbell: Absolutely. In fact, there is a huge increase in Australian 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,310 Canna Campbell: women facing homelessness at the moment. It's on the rise. 61 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,010 Canna Campbell: I've heard of stories of women having to live in 62 00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:35,100 Canna Campbell: their car. We're just not taking this seriously enough, I feel. 63 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,400 Sean Aylmer: Why is there a rise in homelessness among women? 64 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:42,090 Canna Campbell: Well, obviously, the super and gender gap is a big 65 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:44,430 Canna Campbell: issue, but there are other factors that really contribute to 66 00:03:44,430 --> 00:03:49,350 Canna Campbell: this like domestic violence, the relationship status, whether a woman 67 00:03:49,350 --> 00:03:53,040 Canna Campbell: is single because she's a widow or she's divorced. Obviously 68 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,180 Canna Campbell: living as a single person is far more expensive. There's 69 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:00,090 Canna Campbell: elder abuse, which is something we're seeing more and more 70 00:04:00,090 --> 00:04:04,320 Canna Campbell: of. Women, if they haven't been financially educated, are also 71 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,610 Canna Campbell: more vulnerable to scams, and then there's unemployment and illness. 72 00:04:08,610 --> 00:04:11,790 Canna Campbell: So there's a lot of things contributing to this problem, 73 00:04:11,970 --> 00:04:14,040 Canna Campbell: compounding it, making it worse. 74 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,529 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Canna. We'll be back in a minute. 75 00:04:22,380 --> 00:04:25,440 Sean Aylmer: My guest, this morning is financial planner, Canna Campbell, co- 76 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,960 Sean Aylmer: host of our sister podcast, How Do They Afford That? 77 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,190 Sean Aylmer: So is there a solution? Is this something that government 78 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:34,589 Sean Aylmer: really has to take control of or is it something 79 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:36,540 Sean Aylmer: that business needs to take control of? 80 00:04:37,170 --> 00:04:41,070 Canna Campbell: I think it's both, to be honest. There's lots of 81 00:04:41,190 --> 00:04:44,640 Canna Campbell: solutions out there, which is good, but we need way 82 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:47,429 Canna Campbell: more solutions and strategies, and we also need to be 83 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:50,580 Canna Campbell: tackling this not in a knee- jerk reaction but it 84 00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:54,119 Canna Campbell: needs to be a proactive stance with this. So it 85 00:04:54,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Canna Campbell: starts with education first, understanding what superannuation is, the value, 86 00:05:00,390 --> 00:05:04,290 Canna Campbell: how to manage your money, understanding the impact and consequences 87 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:06,870 Canna Campbell: of stepping out of the workforce and how to minimize 88 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:11,190 Canna Campbell: that damage. Then there's legislation. We've recently seen the minimum 89 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:14,610 Canna Campbell: wage ... To be able to earn superannuation has recently changed, 90 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:17,190 Canna Campbell: and that I believe is going to benefit about 200, 000 91 00:05:17,190 --> 00:05:20,219 Canna Campbell: women in Australia, but that's not enough. We need to 92 00:05:20,220 --> 00:05:24,480 Canna Campbell: be doing more. Also, looking at within the workforce, perhaps 93 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,460 Canna Campbell: some coaching and mentoring would be really wise. I have 94 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:32,400 Canna Campbell: girlfriends who are just so excited about the opportunity to 95 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,039 Canna Campbell: be able to return back to the workforce. They've taken 96 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,430 Canna Campbell: these jobs which are not sustainable. They don't actually allow 97 00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:42,540 Canna Campbell: balance as a working mother, and they're in a situation 98 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:44,670 Canna Campbell: where they either have to choose to work full- time 99 00:05:44,670 --> 00:05:47,880 Canna Campbell: and sacrifice a lot of family time or completely step 100 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,640 Canna Campbell: out of the workforce. It's a really hard situation. We 101 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,489 Canna Campbell: also need to consider the cost of childcare. One of 102 00:05:53,490 --> 00:05:57,810 Canna Campbell: my girlfriends was basically earning about $8 a day because of the 103 00:05:57,810 --> 00:06:00,029 Canna Campbell: cost of childcare, but she didn't care because she didn't 104 00:06:00,029 --> 00:06:02,250 Canna Campbell: want to lose her value in the workforce and where 105 00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:04,980 Canna Campbell: she was on the corporate ladder. And then we also need 106 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:09,210 Canna Campbell: to look at greater incentives to contribute to superannuation. As 107 00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:11,460 Canna Campbell: I say with Michael Thompson on our podcast, How Do 108 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:13,739 Canna Campbell: They Afford That, super is sexy. It's a very, very 109 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:16,830 Canna Campbell: powerful tool to help you in combination with other wealth 110 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:21,060 Canna Campbell: accumulation strategies to build your wealth and build realistic long- 111 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:25,380 Canna Campbell: term sustainable wealth. However, the incentives to contribute to super 112 00:06:25,710 --> 00:06:29,820 Canna Campbell: aren't sexy enough, and we need to look at making 113 00:06:29,820 --> 00:06:34,770 Canna Campbell: it appealing for employees as well as employers. And yes, 114 00:06:34,770 --> 00:06:38,820 Canna Campbell: we have the spouse contribution, but that really isn't on 115 00:06:38,820 --> 00:06:42,570 Canna Campbell: the money. It's just not enough. We also should be 116 00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:46,470 Canna Campbell: looking at the adjustments to superannuation caps. We do have 117 00:06:46,470 --> 00:06:49,680 Canna Campbell: lots of caps in place around superannuation because there are great 118 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,130 Canna Campbell: tax advantages to super, but perhaps we need to adjust 119 00:06:53,130 --> 00:06:55,710 Canna Campbell: them and make them more lenient or flexible for women 120 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:58,560 Canna Campbell: who have stepped out of the workforce for numerous years 121 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,739 Canna Campbell: to allow them to maybe have a different cap to 122 00:07:01,740 --> 00:07:04,260 Canna Campbell: be able to catch up and I guess bridge that 123 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:06,000 Canna Campbell: gap and make up for lost time. 124 00:07:06,660 --> 00:07:08,609 Sean Aylmer: I'm still coming to terms with the idea that super is 125 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:12,180 Sean Aylmer: sexy, but I'm going to let that flow, Canna. Well, we talk about 126 00:07:12,180 --> 00:07:14,910 Sean Aylmer: this in terms of women all the time, but there's 127 00:07:14,910 --> 00:07:18,660 Sean Aylmer: a role for men in this, surely, in terms of 128 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,780 Sean Aylmer: men's attitudes to be societal attitudes or to superannuation, things 129 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:28,290 Sean Aylmer: like that where maybe men have to adjust as individuals 130 00:07:28,290 --> 00:07:30,690 Sean Aylmer: have to adjust how they think about this to make 131 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:31,680 Sean Aylmer: it a fairer playing field. 132 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:37,650 Canna Campbell: Absolutely, 100%. I really believe couples should be working together 133 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:41,820 Canna Campbell: on their financial goals and on the family's financial wellbeing. 134 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:45,720 Canna Campbell: So if you are a couple that's planning on having 135 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,630 Canna Campbell: a baby, you need to be having these conversations now, going, " 136 00:07:48,630 --> 00:07:51,420 Canna Campbell: All right. Well, if we have a baby, who's going 137 00:07:51,420 --> 00:07:54,300 Canna Campbell: to step out of the workforce? Who is going to 138 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:58,470 Canna Campbell: help cover the financial impact of being away from work 139 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:02,400 Canna Campbell: and the damage to that person's superannuation account?" Looking at 140 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,670 Canna Campbell: maybe budgeting in regular superannuation contributions to help bridge that 141 00:08:08,670 --> 00:08:12,540 Canna Campbell: gap, looking at maybe proactively salary sacrificing in the lead 142 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:14,880 Canna Campbell: up to stepping out of the workforce or looking at 143 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,490 Canna Campbell: a strategy where you come back to the workforce after 144 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:21,300 Canna Campbell: having a child and look at salary sacrificing to make 145 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:23,850 Canna Campbell: up for all those lost contributions. But you've really got 146 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:26,850 Canna Campbell: to be working as a team and looking at how 147 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:29,040 Canna Campbell: can I help support my partner who's had to take 148 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,579 Canna Campbell: a step back in the workforce and potentially jeopardize their 149 00:08:32,580 --> 00:08:37,080 Canna Campbell: own career path and their opportunities as well? So it 150 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,660 Canna Campbell: really is about looking at the financial wellbeing as a 151 00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:42,750 Canna Campbell: team and coming up with solutions together where it is 152 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:46,440 Canna Campbell: fair and equitable because it takes two people to make 153 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:52,290 Canna Campbell: a baby. There's your parents 50/50 in whatever capacity you 154 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:55,860 Canna Campbell: choose to run your home. So it has got to 155 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:58,740 Canna Campbell: be dealt with, and the quicker you get onto this, the better. 156 00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:02,729 Sean Aylmer: Are we going in the right direction? The numbers that 157 00:09:02,730 --> 00:09:06,059 Sean Aylmer: I mentioned at the beginning and you mentioned, the $ 8, 000 158 00:09:06,059 --> 00:09:08,910 Sean Aylmer: number, it doesn't sound like we're going in the right direction. 159 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,870 Canna Campbell: Look, I like to look at the glass being half 160 00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:16,770 Canna Campbell: full. I do believe we are making progress, but it's 161 00:09:16,770 --> 00:09:19,950 Canna Campbell: a very slow progress and we need to be doing 162 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:23,370 Canna Campbell: more. And at the end of the day, it really boils 163 00:09:23,370 --> 00:09:28,470 Canna Campbell: down to education. Making sure that we can change people's 164 00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:33,929 Canna Campbell: perceptions of personal finances to make them approachable, to make 165 00:09:33,929 --> 00:09:38,520 Canna Campbell: it inspiring, to empower people and to educate people. Really 166 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,150 Canna Campbell: turning the idea of financial wellness and having it up 167 00:09:42,150 --> 00:09:46,530 Canna Campbell: there with the importance of eating well and exercising and 168 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:52,109 Canna Campbell: mental health. This is incredibly important. And look, I have 169 00:09:52,110 --> 00:09:54,030 Canna Campbell: a dream where at the end of the day, we 170 00:09:54,030 --> 00:09:58,290 Canna Campbell: don't need social security. People don't need the age pension 171 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,099 Canna Campbell: because they are self- funded retirees. They've made smart, wise, 172 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:06,329 Canna Campbell: proactive, educated decisions with their money, and they know how 173 00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:10,500 Canna Campbell: to stand on their own two feet as an independent, 174 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:18,000 Canna Campbell: empowered, financially savvy man or woman. I really believe as 175 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,440 Canna Campbell: superannuation gap is incredibly important and the salary gap also 176 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:25,140 Canna Campbell: needs to be addressed, people also need to be looking 177 00:10:25,140 --> 00:10:28,830 Canna Campbell: at investing. Superannuation is important, but if you can combine 178 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,130 Canna Campbell: being smart with your money around superannuation and include an 179 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,630 Canna Campbell: investment strategy along the way, you are getting the best 180 00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:38,940 Canna Campbell: of both worlds and you're really starting to get your 181 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:41,699 Canna Campbell: money working for you rather than you working for money. 182 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:44,220 Canna Campbell: And it takes a lot of stress and pressure off 183 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:49,140 Canna Campbell: everyone's shoulders in a very busy, hectic, crazy, dynamic world 184 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:49,890 Canna Campbell: that we all live in. 185 00:10:50,309 --> 00:10:52,770 Sean Aylmer: That's a pretty good dream to have. Now, Canna, I 186 00:10:52,770 --> 00:10:54,990 Sean Aylmer: just have to ask one final question. You and I 187 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:58,320 Sean Aylmer: had something in common. We both have the same co- 188 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,200 Sean Aylmer: host, so in How Do They Afford That, your co- host 189 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,240 Sean Aylmer: is Michael Thompson, of course, and our regular Fear and 190 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,850 Sean Aylmer: Greed. Well, how do you put up with him? Honestly, 191 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:07,980 Sean Aylmer: just between you and I, how do you put up with him? 192 00:11:08,220 --> 00:11:10,170 Canna Campbell: Well, I tell him I laugh with him, but really I laugh at him. 193 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:16,770 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. That's the secret. Excellent. Thank you for joining 194 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,020 Sean Aylmer: me here on Fear and Greed this morning, Canna. 195 00:11:19,290 --> 00:11:20,130 Canna Campbell: Thank you for having me. 196 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:24,089 Sean Aylmer: That was Canna Campbell, financial planner, founder of SugarMamma. TV and 197 00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:26,250 Sean Aylmer: the host of How Do They Afford That, our sister 198 00:11:26,250 --> 00:11:29,699 Sean Aylmer: podcast. There's a new episode out every Wednesday. That's of How Do 199 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,790 Sean Aylmer: They Afford That. The next episode, which comes out in 200 00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:36,270 Sean Aylmer: a few days, goes into this topic, women in super and 201 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:39,660 Sean Aylmer: super in a lot more detail. Definitely worth checking out. 202 00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:41,970 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Remember, you 203 00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:45,390 Sean Aylmer: should seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Join us 204 00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:47,220 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 205 00:11:47,220 --> 00:11:51,030 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.