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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature. I'm Michael Thompson.

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Speaker 1: This week we talked about a move by Westpac that

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Speaker 1: aims to boost its small business portfolio see Westpac is

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Speaker 1: growing quickly in the SME space, but it is still

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Speaker 1: behind NAB and Commonwealth Bank. It's now though, offering business

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Speaker 1: customers a year's worth of basic legal services, legal documents,

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Speaker 1: business registration services, that kind of thing. How because of

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Speaker 1: a ten million dollar investment in Ossie's startup law Path,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't you know it? Back in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: we spoke with Dominic Woolrich, the co founder and CEO

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Speaker 1: of law Path, about the business, about where it came from,

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Speaker 1: where it was going, and how it was using technology

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Speaker 1: to help Australian businesses manage the legal side of well

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Speaker 1: doing business. It is a great chat from February of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: The law.

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Speaker 3: Some people love it. Most of us don't really understand it,

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Speaker 3: but we do know we need it for society and

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Speaker 3: business to function. From the outside looking in, the law

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Speaker 3: can appear to be imposing and confusing. It's pretty intimidating.

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Speaker 3: It can be also very very expensive. Today on Fear

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Speaker 3: and Greed, we wanted to talk with someone who can

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Speaker 3: help our audience to navigate the legal profession, to get

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Speaker 3: the advice and assistance they may need. Dominic Woolridge is

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Speaker 3: a co founder and chief executive officer of law Path.

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Speaker 3: Dom Welcome to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Sean Presley, tell me a little bit about yourself and

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Speaker 3: law Path. How it came to being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, well, I actually call myself for a covering lawyer.

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Speaker 2: I started in the traditional legal system, working for one

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Speaker 2: of the big corporate firms here in Sydney. I spent

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Speaker 2: a probably about four or five years there, and whilst

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Speaker 2: I was there, actually started my own little side hustle

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Speaker 2: which turned into a reasonable size startup, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of caught the startup bug and I thought, how can

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Speaker 2: I combine startups? How can I combine law together? And

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Speaker 2: then law Path came about. So you know, as you

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Speaker 2: mentioned in your intro, the law is really scary for

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Speaker 2: most small businesses, especially it's expensive, you don't really know

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Speaker 2: what you're getting into. Lawyers have a bit of a

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Speaker 2: sketchy reputation, and so we thought, how can we change

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Speaker 2: that and we saw what was happening in the accounting industry. Actually,

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Speaker 2: these online accounting platforms came through about ten years ago,

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Speaker 2: like zero and into It and Reckon and totally changed

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Speaker 2: the accounting landscape for businesses. And we thought, well, there's

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Speaker 2: a huge gap and laws pretty similar to accounting, so

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Speaker 2: how can we replicate that, and so we started law Paths,

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Speaker 2: so law pass and an online legal platform for businesses.

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Speaker 2: It's a subscription platform, so businesses play a monthly or

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Speaker 2: an annual fee and through that they can access tools

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Speaker 2: and services to run their business. So that might be

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Speaker 2: the soft where to help them start a business, to

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Speaker 2: manage their directors, their shareholders, it might be automated legal documents.

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Speaker 2: And then we also have a network of lawyers on

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Speaker 2: our platform as well, so if you do want to

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Speaker 2: talk to a lawyer, you can just jump on there

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Speaker 2: and speak to them and get the advice you need.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So just breaking that down a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: let's use real life fear and greed example. So there's

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Speaker 3: shareholders at fear and Greed, so we need a shareholder

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Speaker 3: agreement terms and conditions. Terms and conditions are really difficult

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Speaker 3: to actually get right. So it's those sorts of things

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Speaker 3: that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. So when you're starting starting up in

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Speaker 2: probably in your first kind of two to five years

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Speaker 2: of business, you know, you can't be spending tens of

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Speaker 2: thousands or hundreds of thousand dollars on lawyers. You really

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Speaker 2: need easy, kind of on demand solutions. So let's just

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Speaker 2: take a shareholders agreement. Every business should should have a

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Speaker 2: shareholders agreement. If you go and chat to a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: you'll probably be charged, you know, three four five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars for a basic shareholders agreement. You can jump on

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Speaker 2: the Laws platform using our automation technology, you can enter

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Speaker 2: in details about your business and then it will give

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Speaker 2: you your shareholders agreement. We also go a step further

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Speaker 2: and we have these signatures on there so you can

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Speaker 2: send it out to all your different shareholders and get

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Speaker 2: them to sign it. But the thing I like the

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Speaker 2: best about the system is we use data from our

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Speaker 2: past clients to actually suggest answers for you, because if

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Speaker 2: you're completing one of these documents, might be the first

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Speaker 2: time you've ever done it, and you might just not

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Speaker 2: know the answers, or you might just not know what

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Speaker 2: is market so we actually use data from all of

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Speaker 2: our previous clients. We aggregate that data and we say, okay,

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Speaker 2: well your type of business in your state or your suburb,

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Speaker 2: they enter details like this, we recommend you.

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Speaker 3: Do it that way.

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Speaker 2: So we kind of call it the rogo lawyer. I

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Speaker 2: know that sounds pretty scary, but we're kind of moving

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Speaker 2: in that direction whereby kind of basic, commoditized legal services

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Speaker 2: can be done through a platform like ours, and then

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Speaker 2: when it gets really complicated. We're not saying don't go

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Speaker 2: to a lawyer. We're just saying the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: basic stuff, use us, and then when it gets complicated,

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Speaker 2: allow us connect you to the lawyer for the complicated stuff.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so who's using law path What is the sweet spot?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure. So what we find is businesses between zero

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Speaker 2: and five years old, typically under a million dollars in revenue,

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Speaker 2: zero to twenty employees, and most of our businesses classify

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Speaker 2: themselves as online businesses or e commerce businesses. You know,

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Speaker 2: we have one hundred and eighty thousand users on the platform. Now,

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Speaker 2: our first real early adopters were startups, I think because

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Speaker 2: they were willing to take a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: risk and they were willing to look for something different.

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Speaker 2: And also the reality is that they're doing their banking online,

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Speaker 2: they're doing their insurance online, they're doing their accounting online.

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Speaker 2: Why shouldn't they be doing their legal online as well.

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Speaker 2: It just makes sense that's how they work. So they're

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Speaker 2: the type of people.

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Speaker 3: But then there does come a point where you probably

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Speaker 3: do need a lawyer because it's not generic, it's more

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Speaker 3: specific to your organization.

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Speaker 2: Is that how it works, yeah, exactly. So what happens

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Speaker 2: is there's really two sides of the law Path platform.

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Speaker 2: The first side is this automation side whereby you can

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Speaker 2: do things yourself. But when it gets a little bit complicated,

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Speaker 2: we then have the other side of the law Path platform,

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Speaker 2: which is a lawyer marketplace. So we have about one

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Speaker 2: thousand lawyers on this marketplace from all around Australia and

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Speaker 2: we help our clients connect up with those lawyers and

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Speaker 2: then work with those lawyers on the more complicated issues.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that lawyer marketplace is an interesting concept. Are

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Speaker 3: they rated?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are, and that was very controversial at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: so they rate it out of five stars, just like

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Speaker 2: an Uber driver. And you know, lawyers were pretty angry

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Speaker 2: about that when we first started rating them, but at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, clients kind of expect to

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Speaker 2: see reviews and ratings online, and what we actually found

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Speaker 2: was that if you have over fifteen five star reviews

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Speaker 2: on the law path platform, you're six times more likely

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Speaker 2: to be hired. So I think once lawyers realized that

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Speaker 2: the rating and review system was actually helped them win

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Speaker 2: more clients, they came around to it. And so now

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Speaker 2: every client that hires a lawyer through law Path raps

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Speaker 2: their lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Dom stay with me, will be back in a moment.

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Speaker 3: My guess this morning is co founder and set law

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Speaker 3: Path Dom Woolridge. So what has the profession's view been

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Speaker 3: of law Path? What's the law think of law Path?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure, so it's changed over the years. So we

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Speaker 2: launched in twenty fourteen, so we're coming up on six

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Speaker 2: years old. Now. At the beginning, there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of pushback. I think that lawyers saw law Paths coming

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Speaker 2: for their jobs and technology replacing lawyers. And to be honest,

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Speaker 2: when we first started out, you know, part of our

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Speaker 2: mission was how do we replace lawyers? But throughout the years,

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Speaker 2: lawyers and law path have changed their tune a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I think the big thing is that the industry is

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Speaker 2: changing a lot, and the way that lawyers work is

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Speaker 2: changing a lot, and law Path wants to be there

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Speaker 2: to take away the commoditize basic legal work and leave

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Speaker 2: the real legal work to the lawyers, which is why

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Speaker 2: they you know, why they went to university. So at

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Speaker 2: first we got a lot of pushback. Over the last

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Speaker 2: few years though, we've been getting really great reception. We

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Speaker 2: now have about twenty law firms signing up on our

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Speaker 2: platform a week. Obviously we can't invite them all on

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Speaker 2: just because of sublime demand issues, but I think that

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Speaker 2: shows that they're seeing that the industry's changing and they

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Speaker 2: want to jump onto these online platforms.

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Speaker 3: And what about your customers that they must be happy

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Speaker 3: with the fact that it is just less intimidating at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. One of the big big bit of feedback

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Speaker 2: we got early on was that yes, laws expensive, yes

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Speaker 2: laws complicated, but the big one was that it was

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Speaker 2: just really scary to go and see a lawyer, especially

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Speaker 2: for the first time. You didn't know whether they were

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Speaker 2: going to charge you straight away, you didn't know how

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Speaker 2: much it was going to be you didn't understand the process.

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Speaker 2: So I think removing all of those obstacles by putting

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Speaker 2: it on online on demand twenty four to seven from

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Speaker 2: any device really helped a lot of customers reach out

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Speaker 2: early and seek legal information. One of the big, the

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Speaker 2: big kind of shifts that I'm trying to make in

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Speaker 2: the legal industry is it's always been very reactive. So

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Speaker 2: when something goes wrong, you go and see a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: or you wait till the last minute. And how can

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Speaker 2: we flip that so that the law is proactive. How

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Speaker 2: do we make it so accessible and so easy to

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Speaker 2: access the information that the customers can come to us early.

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Speaker 2: And this kind of leads on to this concept I

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Speaker 2: was talking about before, around suggesting answers for the clients

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Speaker 2: and proactively helping them and saying, well, look, you're a

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Speaker 2: fintech startup based in Sydney, based on your industry, here

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Speaker 2: are all the other actions that fintech startups made in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and so helping them, preparing a bit of a roadmap

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Speaker 2: for them, and so it's less intimidating and they have

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Speaker 2: a little bit more transparency over what's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's a great idea. Have you thought about

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Speaker 3: moving into personal law so you know, wills and conveyancing

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Speaker 3: and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have kind of big ambitions to move into

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Speaker 2: personal eventually. The legal industry is a pretty big behemoth

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Speaker 2: to tackle, and so we really thought, where's the area

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Speaker 2: that we can make the biggest impact early on, and

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Speaker 2: small businesses was really that point. We saw that they

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Speaker 2: had very little access to legal services. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: almost assumed that small businesses can afford legal services because

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Speaker 2: they're a business, but in reality, eighty percent of them

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Speaker 2: don't access any kind of legal service, so there was

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Speaker 2: a big gap there. The other kind of reason that

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Speaker 2: we looked at small businesses first was that they actually

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Speaker 2: have quite a predictable legal roadmap. So from the incorporation point,

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Speaker 2: over the first three years, we can say, you know,

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Speaker 2: fantastic on setting up your business. After three months, maybe

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Speaker 2: it's time to hire your first employee. After six months,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's time to trademark your name. So there's a

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Speaker 2: real kind of flow to it, and if we could

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Speaker 2: predict that flow, then we could use the software to

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Speaker 2: proactively help them. But back to your question around personal law,

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Speaker 2: we definitely want to move into personal law. We do

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Speaker 2: do trusts, wheels, powers of attorney, those type of things

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Speaker 2: on the platform, and I think eventually we'd love to

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Speaker 2: move into that and maybe even down the kind of

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Speaker 2: litigation and dispute angle, because that is another area of

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Speaker 2: the law that's very painful for a lot of people

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Speaker 2: and very scary and not that much transparency. But for now,

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Speaker 2: I think small businesses are really who we want to

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Speaker 2: help and we'll look to focus on them definitely for

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Speaker 2: the next kind of eighteen months, with the ambition to

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Speaker 2: start trying and looking after small businesses in other markets

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Speaker 2: as well, not just Australia.

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Speaker 3: So are you a law company or a technology company?

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Speaker 2: We're a technology company. So that's probably one of the

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Speaker 2: big differences between us and maybe any of you know

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Speaker 2: the new what they call new law providers out there,

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Speaker 2: is that law Path is a software company at heart,

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Speaker 2: and we want to build software to help to help clients.

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Speaker 2: We outsource or we have relationships with our lawyers and

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Speaker 2: they're the ones that are the law firms that provide

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Speaker 2: the advice. Now, the reason we kind of chose that

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Speaker 2: structure early on was that we felt it was far

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Speaker 2: more scalable and which has proven to be right. You know,

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Speaker 2: if we can build the software in the infrastructure for

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Speaker 2: the legal services, then lawyers and clients can jump on

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Speaker 2: that infrastructure and actually provide the advice to each other.

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Speaker 3: So where will we be, Where will law Path be

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Speaker 3: in five years time?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think hopefully, and firstly, I think we'll be

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Speaker 2: in multiple markets. We see a huge opportunity, especially up

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Speaker 2: in Asia where there are over fifty million small businesses

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Speaker 2: with very very limited access to legal help. Moving countries

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Speaker 2: has always been difficult for legal companies because there's different laws.

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Speaker 2: One of the advantages that we see at law Path,

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Speaker 2: back to the kind of infrastructure is it doesn't actually

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Speaker 2: matter which lawyers, or which documents or which law is

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Speaker 2: on the platform. The platform can scale into other markets.

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Speaker 2: So five years time, you know, we're a company of

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Speaker 2: thirty eight people right now, you know, obviously I hope

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Speaker 2: that to be hundreds of people in new markets. We

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Speaker 2: estimate about one percent of Australian small businesses have used

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Speaker 2: law Paths so far, and my big north star is

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Speaker 2: that we can get to ten percent within the next

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Speaker 2: kind of three or four years.

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Speaker 3: It's a great idea and good luck with it. Dom.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for talking to fear and greed.

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Speaker 2: Not a problem, Thanks Sean.

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Speaker 3: That was Dominic Woolrich, co founder and chief executive officer

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Speaker 3: at law Path,