Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I
Speaker 1: mentioned the date, the fifteenth of December twenty fourteen, you
Speaker 1: probably can't remember what you were doing. But if I
Speaker 1: mentioned the link Cafe Siege, I'm sure you'd know exactly
Speaker 1: where you were on that day. Like most people in Australia,
Speaker 1: that Siege is embedded in our psyche. It was a
Speaker 1: day terrorism came to the Sydney CBD eighteen Innocent people
Speaker 1: were taken hostage by Man Monus. That siege lasted sixteen hours.
Speaker 1: Two hostages, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, lost their lives,
Speaker 1: and Man Monus was shot and killed by police in
Speaker 1: order to resolve the siege after Tory had been shot.
Speaker 1: Today's guest, Louisa Hope was one of the hostages who
Speaker 1: was used as a human shield throughout the siege, and
Speaker 1: she suffered gunshot wounds from bullet fragments. Louisa is going
Speaker 1: to take us right inside the siege and talk about
Speaker 1: the ongoing effects being caught up in such a horrific
Speaker 1: act of terrorism has had on her. I think you'll find,
Speaker 1: like I have, what an impressive kind person. Louisa is
Speaker 1: welcome to I Catchkillers.
Speaker 2: Thank you gery, good to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we first met a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1: We're at a book launch slash retirement function for Dave Gore,
Speaker 1: retired Detective inspector accounted terrorism experts. When I saw you,
Speaker 1: your face looked for me, and we were talking in
Speaker 1: the same group of people, and then you mentioned your name,
Speaker 1: and then I knew exactly who you were because, as
Speaker 1: coincidence would have it, just a couple of days before,
Speaker 1: I was speaking to Pamela Young, retired detective inspector that
Speaker 1: knows you, and your name came up and there we
Speaker 1: were at this function and now we're hearing I catch killers.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's amazing. I was saying earlier actually that I
Speaker 2: feel like I have more cop friends now than I
Speaker 2: have my normal friends because I just seem to be
Speaker 2: coming up to events and different things that cop sex,
Speaker 2: cops and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, interesting, crew, Well, the two of the good guys
Speaker 1: we Dave and Pamela. So you're picking your friends in
Speaker 1: the cop world wisely, Look, it was almost ten years
Speaker 1: now since Linked cafe. What's your reflections on it from
Speaker 1: the person you were before that time and the person
Speaker 1: you are now.
Speaker 2: The ten year anniversary is a moment, like it's a
Speaker 2: moment in time to reflect, and certainly with all the
Speaker 2: things and everything that's happened since then, it certainly has
Speaker 2: come to that point where I am Leah now thinking
Speaker 2: about the whole thing. And I think that previously before
Speaker 2: the siege, because the truth is life is, you know,
Speaker 2: before the siege and after the siege. That's how my
Speaker 2: friends and my family measure it as I do too.
Speaker 2: So before the siege, really I was just living my
Speaker 2: life in my own little bubble, as we all tend
Speaker 2: to do, you know, it's all about we are the
Speaker 2: center of our own world. And so I was just
Speaker 2: doing all the fun things. I'd not long got divorced,
Speaker 2: and I was single again, and I was unfortunately I
Speaker 2: had to medically retire because of MS, and so that
Speaker 2: was a different world too. So I was traveling and
Speaker 2: having fun.
Speaker 1: Really, it's funny, isn't it. You don't know what's around
Speaker 1: the corner in life, and your life changed so much
Speaker 1: from that day. The person you are, I would imagine,
Speaker 1: is a different person from what it was the day
Speaker 1: you walked into the cafe, I said before we started
Speaker 1: the podcast, and I want to say it again. I
Speaker 1: apologize for bringing it up and having you talk about that,
Speaker 1: because I can understand a traumatic situation like that. When
Speaker 1: you sit down and talk in depth, like we are
Speaker 1: into today, you relive the moment.
Speaker 2: It is true. But the thing is, because I have
Speaker 2: always felt that this event, the siege, it happened to
Speaker 2: not only to myself and the other people in the cafe,
Speaker 2: but it really happened to our whole country. So after
Speaker 2: the siege, I definitely had that sense of duty and
Speaker 2: willingness to share with whoever asked me to come and speak,
Speaker 2: you know, because we all have questions. It's fascinating to
Speaker 2: me what people reflect on, you know, when you're out
Speaker 2: there and you're speaking and sharing, what they have to
Speaker 2: say about it and what they think some things are
Speaker 2: some of their information is not correct, and sometimes they
Speaker 2: have an understanding that is well a blessing to me too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, I understand where you're coming from, and
Speaker 1: I think situations like that it needs to be spoken about.
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be swept under the carpet, and we need
Speaker 1: people to understand what the ramifications are when actions are
Speaker 1: taken in the way they were at that siege.
Speaker 2: That's right, because it wasn't just a tragedy, you know,
Speaker 2: with two innocent people being killed. It was a shock
Speaker 2: and the fact of the matter is, you know, we
Speaker 2: had the inquest afterwards, and there is always a question
Speaker 2: whether the inquest was sufficient or if perhaps it was
Speaker 2: maybe a blunt instrument to consider the whole aspect the event,
Speaker 2: because in quests, of course, just focus on the people
Speaker 2: who have died in a particular situation. So yes, there
Speaker 2: was a lot that the inquest just couldn't cover by
Speaker 2: the very nature of its function. So you know, when
Speaker 2: we think about that, the fullness of the experience that
Speaker 2: we all had collectively, there are things that are still
Speaker 2: not resolved from to my mind, things that are still
Speaker 2: not understood. We have not learnt the full God that
Speaker 2: have lessons that we could from that event. And I
Speaker 2: think that really learning the lessons across the board is
Speaker 2: the least that we can do to honor the people
Speaker 2: who passed that, you know, and also benefit our broader
Speaker 2: society as we come together, because I mean, what's the
Speaker 2: use of any experience in life if you don't learn
Speaker 2: from it.
Speaker 1: And I think if we can be open enough to
Speaker 1: when I say police, like I was involved in aspects
Speaker 1: of it. I led the investigation in the crime scene,
Speaker 1: as you know, so I was called out for that.
Speaker 1: It was an unusual situation for our law enforcement officers,
Speaker 1: for the New South Wales Police, for the country, for
Speaker 1: Australia as a whole, And you're quite right, like, okay,
Speaker 1: if things could have been done better, and it's a
Speaker 1: benefit of hindsight, it's a wonderful thing so it doesn't
Speaker 1: even necessarily have to be a direct criticism, it's just
Speaker 1: what lessons learn from that. And speaking to you, I
Speaker 1: think it's amazing, Like I think the insight that you
Speaker 1: have to what you went through and you can look
Speaker 1: at it and reflect on it, I think it's quite amazing.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it will come out today when we're talking,
Speaker 1: because let's be realistic. There was times during that siege
Speaker 1: and it was sixteen hours that you thought you were
Speaker 1: going to die.
Speaker 2: Absolutely definitely. There were three particular occasions where I thought,
Speaker 2: this is it, I'm going to go on today. You know.
Speaker 2: It was serious, you know, and that really and in
Speaker 2: the end with the tragedy of Katrina losing her life
Speaker 2: in that situation at the end and all of us
Speaker 2: who were still in the you know, the main part
Speaker 2: of the cafe at that time, we're all injured and
Speaker 2: you know that we survived. It's quite miraculous. Really, that's
Speaker 2: the truth of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can only and I suppose it's everyone's
Speaker 1: worst fear, but it's a fear that you look when
Speaker 1: you're watching TV and a movie or something that has
Speaker 1: taken the hostage. And I think when we all get
Speaker 1: on the plane, you think, okay, wonder what happens if
Speaker 1: someone got up with a gun, what would go on?
Speaker 1: And he you were it would have almost felt surreal.
Speaker 3: I would imagine it absolutely did.
Speaker 2: It was, you know, actually going when Manhronman has stood
Speaker 2: up and started to make his little speech, I in
Speaker 2: my head, I thought, it's Canda camera. You know, we're
Speaker 2: across the road from Channel seven. It's just a lark.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until he pulled out the gun that
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, no, this is real and we're going
Speaker 2: to die, because that's what terrorists do, right They killed you,
Speaker 2: and so that was a surprise, not to be killed
Speaker 2: on the spot.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, I can only well, I can't imagine unless
Speaker 1: you've been there, who knows how you react or how
Speaker 1: you would feel from that. Let's talk about you before
Speaker 1: the day. Describe your life.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a very happy life really and I
Speaker 2: live a very spiritual life. You know, faith is really
Speaker 2: important to me. And so I had my church community,
Speaker 2: and I had my group of friends, and I lived
Speaker 2: in a co and you know, not far down the road,
Speaker 2: I'd moved into a new place in en More, in Sydney,
Speaker 2: and that was a really happy time for me. Actually,
Speaker 2: you know, it was all about going out having fun.
Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.
Speaker 2: Now, that's a good question. I think I was fifty two, okay,
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a great time in a woman's life
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 1: Fifty okay and living in Nurskyville. Oh yeah, it's a fun,
Speaker 1: fun time. Pad by all. So yourself and your mother, Robin,
Speaker 1: that's right, I went to the cafe. What was that
Speaker 1: about the catch up or were you meet people?
Speaker 2: Actually I had in that week and actually I was
Speaker 2: in Texas. I was in Austin, Texas, and I'd been
Speaker 2: doing some helping mum with some legal stuff. And she
Speaker 2: rang me and said, oh, you need to come home
Speaker 2: early because you know, we need to get it sorted out. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I come home early, so close to Christmas, you know,
Speaker 2: we're all just focused there. So anyway, we had an
Speaker 2: appointment with just with a family lawyer, so no big deal,
Speaker 2: you know, it's ordinary business. And there we were, and
Speaker 2: we had because we didn't want to be late, because
Speaker 2: Mum lived out near the Blue Mountains at the time,
Speaker 2: and because you didn't want to be late, we made
Speaker 2: the decision that we would go in on the Sunday
Speaker 2: on the Sunday night and that we would then not
Speaker 2: get caught up in the traffic, you know, Monday morning,
Speaker 2: and that's what we did. We're at the Hilton and
Speaker 2: we had that moment actually Gary, where we're just sort
Speaker 2: of deciding where we would have breakfast because our appointment,
Speaker 2: I think was maybe at ten, and we were like,
Speaker 2: will we stay at the Hilton or will we go
Speaker 2: up to the land and because you know that's the
Speaker 2: where his office was, in the tower block behind the
Speaker 2: lind and so will we won't. We don't want a
Speaker 2: big breakfast, We'll just go up and have coffee and toast.
Speaker 2: So that's what we did. We just jumped in the cabin.
Speaker 2: We just slid through that door and into the lint,
Speaker 2: you know, and you just things that you don't even
Speaker 2: bother about. You know, which cafe will I go to?
Speaker 2: Where will I have breakfast? No big deal, ordinary, you know.
Speaker 1: Just one. So just that typical, typical morning. We've all
Speaker 1: been for a cafe, not big breakfast, let's go grab
Speaker 1: a coffee. You've gone in there, so you're sitting down.
Speaker 1: What was your impression when you walked into the cafe?
Speaker 1: Had you been there before.
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I used to work in the city
Speaker 2: and Lint was you know, a regular place, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it was no big deal kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The one thing we did now just was young Jared
Speaker 2: morten Hoffmann. He was our server that morning, and he
Speaker 2: looked a little bit not wanting to be there, and
Speaker 2: you know like, oh, and I said to my mum
Speaker 2: something like that kid doesn't look very have you, And
Speaker 2: she said, oh, well, you know you had to get
Speaker 2: up early, and I said, always going to be in
Speaker 2: for a long day then, not imagining, of course, but
Speaker 2: you know, just sort of ordinary observations. So that was
Speaker 2: you know, me like just not interested really in what
Speaker 2: was going.
Speaker 1: On again, just that typical day and the young young
Speaker 1: people working way might happen. It's ridiculous hour hour of
Speaker 1: the morning. So was there anything else about the environment
Speaker 1: that seemed unusual to me?
Speaker 2: It's just that pretty Christmas thing. But I have to
Speaker 2: tell you that my mother, Robin, so yeah, bumps of
Speaker 2: Mom's a very interesting woman and classic salt of the
Speaker 2: earth kind of thing and do anything for anyone that
Speaker 2: kind of person and always going over and beyond. But
Speaker 2: this particular day we're sitting there. And as it was,
Speaker 2: she was sitting on the bench seat at the lint.
Speaker 2: If anyone's been there, there's a bench seat that runs
Speaker 2: along the mountain place side, and I was sitting facing
Speaker 2: her with my back to the main body of the cafe.
Speaker 2: So Mom's sitting there, We've got her coffee, waiting for toast,
Speaker 2: and she says, what's that man doing over there? And
Speaker 2: I'm like, what man, mum chat chat carrying on? She said,
Speaker 2: why is that man sitting there? That must be the manager,
Speaker 2: she says, and I'm like, Mum, She says, well, do
Speaker 2: you just he just doesn't look right. So I kind
Speaker 2: of like did the big turn around to see what
Speaker 2: she was talking. I said, don't look now, that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. And so I'm like, well, Mom, don't worry
Speaker 2: about it. Just leave him to his breakfast, no big
Speaker 2: deal anyway. But she kept rabbiting on about this chap
Speaker 2: that she just didn't feel was in the right place,
Speaker 2: and she's commenting about him, you know, on and off
Speaker 2: through our breakfast. In the end, I'm like, Mom, just relaxed,
Speaker 2: don't worry about that man anyway. You know. It's sort
Speaker 2: of since then has reminded me, of course, that one
Speaker 2: should always listen to what one's mother says.
Speaker 1: What would they know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exact.
Speaker 1: But isn't an interesting instinct than something just didn't feel right?
Speaker 1: And I think it can come down to it almost
Speaker 1: like an energy, someone putting out the wrong energy. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting that your mum picked up on.
Speaker 2: That though, well she certainly did. It was her intuition,
Speaker 2: you know, And how often do we dismiss our intuition.
Speaker 2: I mean, of course I wouldn't have prompted us to
Speaker 2: get up and run out of the cafe or anything,
Speaker 2: but just that she was aware, and just that I
Speaker 2: was dismissive. But yeah, so he was obviously at that
Speaker 2: very the early stage talking to Tory Johnson, as I
Speaker 2: understand now, got him to make a phone call to
Speaker 2: Triple O that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, how it played out, as I understand, was that
Speaker 1: man Momus sat down at a table on his own,
Speaker 1: spoke to one of the staff and said, who's your manager?
Speaker 1: And the manager Tory came out and sat down and
Speaker 1: was having the conversation with him, and that's when men
Speaker 1: and Momus told him this is what's happening. When did
Speaker 1: you realize something terrible was about to take place.
Speaker 2: I was sitting there and we had made that decision
Speaker 2: not to go upstairs, that we'd have another coffee, you know,
Speaker 2: another sliding door moment.
Speaker 3: But we dan that extra coffee, I know, right.
Speaker 2: But then there was this little buzz around the cafe
Speaker 2: that went, oh, the doors are locked, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: that's ridiculous. You know. Well, I'm just I'll call the
Speaker 2: building manager and they'll sort it out, no big deal.
Speaker 2: But in the meantime, I'll just go and pay for
Speaker 2: our coffee. So I got up and went to pay
Speaker 2: for my breakfast, and once again, the way the counter was,
Speaker 2: I was facing out, looking out onto the corner of
Speaker 2: Phillips Street and George Street, a mutain place, rather through
Speaker 2: the door. And yeah, the little girl who was serving
Speaker 2: me was just She's had a mouth open and I
Speaker 2: couldn't see what she could see. And I'm thinking, what's
Speaker 2: wrong with this kid?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But of course she could see him standing up and
Speaker 2: making his speech, And so we did the exchange with
Speaker 2: the money. I turned around to go back to my
Speaker 2: seat and there he was. And it was only then
Speaker 2: that I realized that something was a mess. And as
Speaker 2: I said, to you earlier. You know, it wasn't until
Speaker 2: he pulled out his gun that I actually thought it
Speaker 2: was real.
Speaker 1: He's standing up. Was he talking or shouting? Was what
Speaker 1: was being said?
Speaker 3: No, he was.
Speaker 2: Talking very deliberately, speaking very deliberately and not shouting, certainly
Speaker 2: not quiet, but just in a normal voice, telling us
Speaker 2: that we were hostages and that he was wanting to
Speaker 2: speak to the Prime Minister on national radio and that
Speaker 2: Australia was under attack. And at the same time, he
Speaker 2: was putting on his bandanna that he had around his head,
Speaker 2: and then he pulled out his gun. And then it
Speaker 2: was like, that's real. The gun was real.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I think in the conversation he had with Tori,
Speaker 1: he got the staff to lock the doors, and then
Speaker 1: you've paid for your coffee, and then he's standing up,
Speaker 1: and then he put the bandanna on and pulled out
Speaker 1: the gun. I got what was going through your mind?
Speaker 2: Well, in the moment, once I realized that it just
Speaker 2: wasn't some sort of candid camera joke, really, I just went,
Speaker 2: we're dead, because that's what terrorists do. They don't mess around,
Speaker 2: you know, And I thought we're all going to die.
Speaker 2: Quite literally, that was my thought, and it was that
Speaker 2: kind of moment of Okay, this is it, this is
Speaker 2: my dying day, you know. Really that's how I was thinking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's understandable because if you've caught up in
Speaker 1: the bank robbery, the objective there is not to kill
Speaker 1: hostages or get attention. But when you're caught up in
Speaker 1: the situation that's been declared a terrorist, it's a reasonable
Speaker 1: assumption to think this is not going to end in nicely.
Speaker 2: No, that's right, definitely, you know. And then of course
Speaker 2: he started to place everybody around the room and pulled
Speaker 2: the women in close to him and the men out
Speaker 2: on the outer ring, and putting people up at the
Speaker 2: windows with his sign and things like that. He's been
Speaker 2: a little flag that he had, and so there was
Speaker 2: all of that going on as well, And of course
Speaker 2: in the room where all strangers, all of us who
Speaker 2: are customers, and of course the staff knew each other,
Speaker 2: but we didn't know each other, so we're just randomly
Speaker 2: there and yeah, it was like, well, what's next, and
Speaker 2: so he's giving instruction all that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So let me just talk through that, because getting the
Speaker 1: feel of what you went through there, he's declared it's
Speaker 1: a terrorist act. He's got the women around him as
Speaker 1: you would see, like it literally a human shield, putting
Speaker 1: the men around the outer perimeter in a circle, getting
Speaker 1: the flag and the signs up against the window. Concern
Speaker 1: for yourself, you're there with your mother, What you had
Speaker 1: concerns for your mother?
Speaker 3: Because oh yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Know, definitely, because well two things. Of course, one is
Speaker 2: concerned for one's mother and everybody else. But for me
Speaker 2: in particular, my concern about my mother was that I
Speaker 2: knew that she would not be taking this kind of crap.
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, say that exactly, you know, like, because you
Speaker 2: know I knew her and she would not have liked
Speaker 2: his behavior.
Speaker 1: Don't be ridiculous, young man.
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, it was a situation like that. But you know,
Speaker 2: so my concern was just trying to keep her quiet
Speaker 2: and still and just you know, breathe mum. But of
Speaker 2: course he once he realized that we were related, he
Speaker 2: separated us. So for example, the way he positioned us,
Speaker 2: I could not see her. Mum was actually seated behind
Speaker 2: me on the bench and I was seated and he
Speaker 2: faced me towards him. And yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Did you get a chance to speak to your mom,
Speaker 1: like to communicate with your mum right at the.
Speaker 2: Start, just a little bit, but not much, you know,
Speaker 2: mainly through you know, just what was saying with her eyes.
Speaker 2: But funnily enough, he was on it, like he was
Speaker 2: on all of us about keeping our eyes closed and
Speaker 2: not like giving each other signals or anything like that,
Speaker 2: and definitely sort of being aware of people can talk
Speaker 2: apart from words and so yes, so there was very
Speaker 2: little opportunity for that. And only at one point he
Speaker 2: actually instructed me to speak to my mother, So that
Speaker 2: was peculiar in itself, but that really was my concern
Speaker 2: with mum, just trying to keep her calm.
Speaker 1: I could well, when I say, I could imagine, and
Speaker 1: I'll probably trip up on that throughout this I can't imagine.
Speaker 1: It's just it's a surreal situation that ninety nine point
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of people never find themselves in. You're
Speaker 1: sitting there, You got this person. How is his behavior?
Speaker 1: Is it Arabic or is it controlled or no?
Speaker 2: He's calm, very deliberate in fact, and in lots of ways.
Speaker 2: It was like he had thought through a lot of things,
Speaker 2: but there are other things that he hadn't thought about.
Speaker 2: But then of course, really the man had originally planned
Speaker 2: to go to Channel seven, and because he couldn't get
Speaker 2: in because of the security, the you know, the link
Speaker 2: was his second kind of choice, if you like, and
Speaker 2: so things that he just didn't kind of know, like
Speaker 2: the lay out of the cafe and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So some things he was very deliberate about, and other
Speaker 2: things not peculiar.
Speaker 1: So you're sitting there, you got your eyes closed, is
Speaker 1: he talking or you just left there in the moment
Speaker 1: wondering what the hell's going to happen.
Speaker 2: Well, the eyes closed was eyes closed, eyes open routine
Speaker 2: that went on regularly.
Speaker 1: What he would tell you the close your close eyes
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 2: You grab your eyes. It was so strange, but anyway,
Speaker 2: so that's what we were doing. And of course it
Speaker 2: quickly become obvious that what he really wanted was media attention.
Speaker 2: Right at the beginning, he told me to ring triple Oh.
Speaker 2: So I assumed in that moment that I was the
Speaker 2: first person ringing TRIPLO. Didn't know about Tori's call, of course,
Speaker 2: so I was ringing triple O, which I did, And
Speaker 2: then then he was happy with the way I had
Speaker 2: made the call. And then he wanted. He said something
Speaker 2: peculiar in that. He said, that was good, you can
Speaker 2: be my secretary. I seriously, what a promotion. But anyway,
Speaker 2: that's the day.
Speaker 1: Right, just the fact that you can smile. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because it's not a laughing but you have
Speaker 1: you got that, that's true. You know, you got to
Speaker 1: be ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Because if you don't, you know, you can go into
Speaker 2: the whole of the tragedy and into the fear and
Speaker 2: all that kind of thing. And so anyway, that that moment,
Speaker 2: and then he told me to get to find ABC
Speaker 2: Radio on the phone.
Speaker 1: Is this your own phone? Your phone from.
Speaker 2: Actually it was mums because that day I had forgotten
Speaker 2: my phone, which was a bit silly, but anyway, you know,
Speaker 2: I forgot my phone. So Mum has an Android and
Speaker 2: I have an Apple and blah blah, and I've got
Speaker 2: no idea how to work her phone. So anyway, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to find the right you know, ABC Radio, and
Speaker 2: I think I found the ABC book Club, which he
Speaker 2: was not interested in at all. He wanted ABC, you know,
Speaker 2: the news station. So very fortunately this is what happened.
Speaker 2: Young Jared Morton Hoffman, who was a young boy who
Speaker 2: actually our waiter, our server that day. He quickly stepped
Speaker 2: in and said I'll do it, and with that I
Speaker 2: passed the phone to Jared, and Jared really stepped up
Speaker 2: from their amazing young man. He was only nineteen at
Speaker 2: the time, and you know, just incredible.
Speaker 1: Took the initiative and took the pressure off fathers.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's impressive how people reacting situations. And this is
Speaker 1: a kid that you and your mum were saying, Look,
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be here, and that's right. He
Speaker 1: steps up like that. When you phone Triple O, what
Speaker 1: did you say?
Speaker 2: I remember that I had to be very very clear
Speaker 2: because this was not a call the Triple O would
Speaker 2: be used to. So you know, I said to the woman,
Speaker 2: are you listening? You know right, this is what's happening.
Speaker 2: And I said, my mother and I this is just
Speaker 2: from memory, Yeah, my mother and I are in the
Speaker 2: Lint Cafe the corner of Phillips Street and Martin Place
Speaker 2: in Sydney, CBD. And I knew I had to say
Speaker 2: that because in that very be very precise about that
Speaker 2: because Triple O are everywhere. They're not just you know,
Speaker 2: they're not Sydney there, they could have been anywhere and
Speaker 2: they would not have actually known what the location I
Speaker 2: was speaking about. So I was trying to be very
Speaker 2: particular about it. And you know the man because what
Speaker 2: else do you refer to him as the man? The
Speaker 2: man has a gun, And then of course Triple O
Speaker 2: go into the panic like how many are you? And
Speaker 2: you know where are you and how many are just
Speaker 2: like so at the same time he's telling me what
Speaker 2: to say. So I was kind of like in that
Speaker 2: situation of trying to pacify him with saying what he
Speaker 2: wanted said and trying at the same time to answer
Speaker 2: the Triple O questions, which I've got to say was
Speaker 2: really challenging. But anyway, that was that and the end.
Speaker 1: Of that master of the understatement challenging. I can't yeah,
Speaker 1: I can see that challenging because I can imagine the
Speaker 1: Triple O would be firing questions that you did he
Speaker 1: say what the purpose of the terrorist act was?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, he never referred to it as
Speaker 2: a terrorist act. And as an aside, one of the
Speaker 2: other girls referred to him as that, you know, a terrorist,
Speaker 2: and he said he got a little bit indignosed. Do
Speaker 2: you think I'm a terrorist, and she said, what else
Speaker 2: can I call you? And at that point he said,
Speaker 2: you can call me brother.
Speaker 3: Brother isis okay?
Speaker 1: So link into isis.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So we then started to call him brother.
Speaker 2: So prior to that, I'd been referring to him as sir,
Speaker 2: because you know, like men like that like to be
Speaker 2: deferred to, and so, but once he said, you know,
Speaker 2: call me brother, which was the most ironic joke in
Speaker 2: some ways. But you know, there we were.
Speaker 1: Well, if you had a gun, I'd call him whatever
Speaker 1: wanted me to call.
Speaker 3: Him first, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, So how long how long have you
Speaker 1: been there before you're making contact with Triple A?
Speaker 2: From my memory, which is about the time I think
Speaker 2: probably we're in that situation, about half an hour, but
Speaker 2: of course Tripoo had already been called because Tori had
Speaker 2: made that call, but so probably would have been about
Speaker 2: half an hour.
Speaker 1: And he had you all hand your phones in that
Speaker 1: he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of the first things he did was
Speaker 2: get everyone handing in their phones and their ID. So
Speaker 2: that's what happened. We all pulled out our ID and
Speaker 2: put it on the table and our phones and they
Speaker 2: were just left there, and of course we're all spread
Speaker 2: across the cafe, but then we were pulled in and
Speaker 2: so for most of us, our phones were left on
Speaker 2: various tables that we had been sitting at. So throughout
Speaker 2: the day, of course, as people's friends and family become
Speaker 2: aware that it must be them in the cafe, then yeah,
Speaker 2: the phones were ringing.
Speaker 1: Was he always had the firearm and always making a
Speaker 1: point of the fact that he's got control of this
Speaker 1: situation because he's got the firearm.
Speaker 2: That's right, absolutely, And of course he had told us
Speaker 2: that he had a bomb in his backpack, and then
Speaker 2: he said, I've got two bombs in my backpack. And
Speaker 2: at that point I remember thinking, maybe got two bombs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you haven't.
Speaker 2: Got a bomb, But you know what, do I know?
Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue with a man like that.
Speaker 2: And so just when okay, he's got a bomb. So
Speaker 2: he has a bomb in his backpack, and he's got
Speaker 2: the gun.
Speaker 1: And the fact that he's made reference to a bomb,
Speaker 1: whether you can surmise, well, maybe it's not a bomb.
Speaker 3: You just don't know, that's right. That's why I hope
Speaker 3: that a bobom.
Speaker 1: Look, yeah, again, we're fed by a lot that we've
Speaker 1: seen in in the media and in fiction as well, that, yeah,
Speaker 1: the bomb goes off in the backpack when they push
Speaker 1: wash the button, that that type of thing. So that
Speaker 1: would have added to the whole scenario.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely. You know, it's just that layer upon
Speaker 2: layer of pressure, and you know, it's the days winding
Speaker 2: on and you're sort of realizing that he's not going
Speaker 2: to kill anyone in a hurry, but he's that's a
Speaker 2: threat that's always there, you know, like certainly when the
Speaker 2: first hostages escaped, but you know that is always there.
Speaker 1: Did you think, and I'm trying to get a sense,
Speaker 1: because only only you know, were you hoping that at
Speaker 1: some point in time police were going to come crashing
Speaker 1: through the door from the early stages, did you absolutely?
Speaker 2: You know, from from the get go, absolutely I believed
Speaker 2: that the police would rescue us, because you know, that's
Speaker 2: what police do, right they rescue us. And just I
Speaker 2: just assumed that they were coming eventually, as he obviously
Speaker 2: was thinking that, you know, that the police were coming,
Speaker 2: and you know, it was a surprise to discover that
Speaker 2: that wasn't the plan. But so all through the day
Speaker 2: there was a certain undercurrent amongst us. That we weren't
Speaker 2: speaking to each other, and we're all random strangers, as
Speaker 2: I've said, but you know, you could tell there was
Speaker 2: a vibe around us, and that was simply to keep
Speaker 2: him entertained and busy and give him what he wanted
Speaker 2: as far as we possibly could, to keep him focused
Speaker 2: on other things, which was trying to get media attention
Speaker 2: while we all waited for the police to come. Now,
Speaker 2: I've never spoken to my fellow hostages about this, but
Speaker 2: I assume that they all thought the same.
Speaker 1: I suppose in a group situation like that, without the communication,
Speaker 1: the body language and the whole tone of the thing,
Speaker 1: you would have been, Okay, let's just keep him happy
Speaker 1: because sooner or later the police are going will arrive
Speaker 1: and that this will be over.
Speaker 2: And we could see them, of course, you know, as
Speaker 2: the day went on, we could see the tou guys outside.
Speaker 2: Obviously they weren't directly in front of the doors or
Speaker 2: anything like that, but we could see their reflection in
Speaker 2: the marble from the reserve bank. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: know this is going to sound the strangest weird thing,
Speaker 2: but you could feel them, and I don't know how
Speaker 2: we did through all that brick and marble and everything,
Speaker 2: but you could feel yeah, mystery.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I think in a situation like that you
Speaker 1: senses are heightened, every sense, and so yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's unusual to experience things that you can't really
Speaker 1: explain in that situation. The efforts to contact the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister and that, and when you said the young staff
Speaker 1: members stepped up and said he'd negotiap how was that going?
Speaker 1: What was Mamas doing when all this was going on.
Speaker 1: Was he constantly talking to you and keeping control or
Speaker 1: was he silent?
Speaker 2: No, he's constantly talking and definitely keeping control. And he
Speaker 2: was as like, the younger one stepped up because I'm
Speaker 2: more fluid with social media and then all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff, and then he told us to put it
Speaker 2: on our social media, and which of course would have
Speaker 2: just been terrifying for people's family and friends. So of
Speaker 2: course Mom and I. I didn't have my phone, so
Speaker 2: I didn't do any of that. Mom of course didn't
Speaker 2: have that kind of thing. So anyway, everyone was busy
Speaker 2: with that, doing social media and also trying to get
Speaker 2: press attention.
Speaker 1: So so when you say everyone was busy on social media,
Speaker 1: so you had your phones there and he was encouraging peace.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he did certain yeah, certain people, not everyone
Speaker 2: all at the same time or anything like that. But
Speaker 2: he was saying, I put it on social media. Then
Speaker 2: how do we get it up onto YouTube? Well, you know,
Speaker 2: Jared morten Hoffman and some of the others knew just
Speaker 2: how to do that. And then of course he had
Speaker 2: us make this video telling people what was going on,
Speaker 2: what he wanted, and of course that particular video I
Speaker 2: participated in that. And the thing was he said, say
Speaker 2: what you like, but say this so you know, sure,
Speaker 2: so of course, so of course wanting to plicate him
Speaker 2: and by precating him, keeping him passive or as passive
Speaker 2: as a man with a gun could be, hoping that,
Speaker 2: you know, just give us that bit more time till
Speaker 2: the police come. So yes, it was like that. The
Speaker 2: whole day was about trying to get media attention and
Speaker 2: that was exhausting. But we're all participating in that in
Speaker 2: one way or another. Not so much my mother and
Speaker 2: I but you know, watching, you know, what the other
Speaker 2: kids were doing, etc.
Speaker 1: But I fully understand placating the person in there. And
Speaker 1: you've probably heard the terminology Stockholm syndrome with I think
Speaker 1: it was from a nineteen seventy four hostage situation where
Speaker 1: people are doing things to appease a person that's got control.
Speaker 1: So I understand that delivering the messages like again, this
Speaker 1: is and I'm tapping into because most people don't have
Speaker 1: this life experience being caught up in something like this,
Speaker 1: but we've seen it on TV and you see these
Speaker 1: horrible situations where hostages are staring at the camera going,
Speaker 1: please the person who's been good to us, blah blah
Speaker 1: blah whatever demands. What was that like?
Speaker 2: It was peculiar to have to do that, So I
Speaker 2: remember that when I did mine, I just i'd lived it.
Speaker 2: Of course, whilst he's in the side telling me what
Speaker 2: to say and trying to say it quickly, you know,
Speaker 2: to get the whole thing over and done with. But
Speaker 2: you know, he the interesting thing, as you pointed out earlier,
Speaker 2: the whole Stockholm syndrome situation, I can say with confidence
Speaker 2: in my own heart that we were not in that
Speaker 2: Stockholm situation, particularly because nobody had given over to him
Speaker 2: or yielded to him. Everyone was participating to hold out
Speaker 2: long enough for the police to come. So we hadn't
Speaker 2: gone over to his side, we're just doing whatever it takes.
Speaker 1: Hadn't been broken, No, that's.
Speaker 2: Right, and there was certainly no love for the man,
Speaker 2: but just whatever he wanted for now.
Speaker 1: Did you looking at the people in there and at
Speaker 1: the time you walking with the aid of a walking stick,
Speaker 1: that's correct, other people in there? Did you think there
Speaker 1: was opportunities for other people to take action? Do you
Speaker 1: think that was going through people's minds? Like, we've eighteen
Speaker 1: of you in there and one person with a gun.
Speaker 1: He can't keep an eye on everyone, ending on where
Speaker 1: he's got you corral or position. Were you concern someone
Speaker 1: was going to try something to resolve the situation? Not concerned?
Speaker 1: Did you think that was a possibility?
Speaker 2: Well, of course I did think that that could be
Speaker 2: a possibility. I didn't know how that could be, but
Speaker 2: you know, really, I now know that some of the
Speaker 2: younger guys had taken Nyes from the kitchen when they
Speaker 2: were pulled out of the kitchen right at the beginning,
Speaker 2: and seriously, I cannot think of how they could have
Speaker 2: attacked him without first of all, you know, this bomb
Speaker 2: going off or the gun going off, or you know,
Speaker 2: them being killed or somebody else, So you know, just
Speaker 2: as an assign I'll tell you this little story. So
Speaker 2: at one point my mother, who was you know, blood
Speaker 2: was boiling. She stands up and she hands on her
Speaker 2: hips and she says, I want to go to the
Speaker 2: bathroom and my daughter needs some medication. Oh mum. Anyway,
Speaker 2: so he says, you go the toilet. And he used
Speaker 2: to send us with one or two lint workers, or
Speaker 2: each of us went with the lint workers. It was
Speaker 2: either Jared or young Fiona. Ma anyway, so mum, she'd
Speaker 2: done that, and off she goes. And she goes down
Speaker 2: to the bathroom with Fiona and Jared. For whatever reason,
Speaker 2: he sent the two of them. So she's down in
Speaker 2: the toilet and so Jared then tells me this story
Speaker 2: when I was in hospital actually, and he says, your mother.
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, yeah, my mother. So we took her
Speaker 2: down to the toilet and she says, right, you fellas.
Speaker 2: I can just hear us saying it, right, you fellas.
Speaker 2: This is what we're going to do. We're going to
Speaker 2: go up upstairs because the toilets were down three stairs,
Speaker 2: up three stairs, go up the stairs, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to go and Spitney's face and all of you fellas
Speaker 2: are going to run out. And when Jared told me that,
Speaker 2: I just kind of I'm in my hospital bed there
Speaker 2: and he's visiting, and I'm like, oh, that cold sort
Speaker 2: of shiver go over me because I thought that was
Speaker 2: exactly what I was afraid of. And he says, and
Speaker 2: we're laughing, you know, at the same time, Jared and
Speaker 2: I the insanity of it. And she says, this is
Speaker 2: one of this is it? Like, you know, I've made
Speaker 2: up my mind. And he says, but Robin, he could
Speaker 2: kill you, and she goes, That's okay. I've had a
Speaker 2: good life. I'm not worried. You know, he kills me,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. You fellas get out. You're only young, blah
Speaker 2: blah blah. And then he says to her, but he
Speaker 2: could kill somebody else, and she had no answer for that,
Speaker 2: of course, so that put her back in a box.
Speaker 2: But I just sort of think about, you know, the
Speaker 2: wisdom and the quick wittedness of that young man to
Speaker 2: come up against my mother, who I absolutely have no
Speaker 2: doubt would have walked up and spat in his face. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and just I think, my goodness, charity, you know, it.
Speaker 1: Says a lot wisdom the years, and we look at
Speaker 1: kids or nineteen year old or whatever agey was and thinking, well,
Speaker 1: you don't really know what life is about, but they
Speaker 1: step up in situations like that, and it's an extreme situation,
Speaker 1: like I could imagine that people just panicking. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: people didn't just break down and cry uncontrollably?
Speaker 3: Yeah they did, did they?
Speaker 1: And that looking at all the other hostages just and
Speaker 1: matter for yourself whether you identify the hostages, but just
Speaker 1: the type of different reactions that people had in that situation, because,
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, collectively, you've all been brought there together.
Speaker 1: You don't know each other outside the staff members, and
Speaker 1: you've put in this extraordinary situation. So did you see
Speaker 1: things that inspired you with the other hostages. You've just
Speaker 1: talked about what Jared did and other things that surprised
Speaker 1: you how people react.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I think that it
Speaker 2: would have been appropriate and understandable if absolutely everybody was
Speaker 2: on the floor crying their eyes out. You know, it
Speaker 2: was terrifying, quite frankly, and you know that nobody vomited
Speaker 2: with the fear is still a surprise to me. You know,
Speaker 2: like some of the younger girls were quite like that
Speaker 2: and totally understandable. But of course those younger girls were
Speaker 2: on the floor praying illness, not coping, but that they
Speaker 2: managed to find a way to sneak out of the cafe.
Speaker 2: Brilliant luck. And so you know, it's just you don't know,
Speaker 2: people have their own way of surviving.
Speaker 1: How far into the seat When the first three Mammy
Speaker 1: two escape.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it was probably mid afternoon.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're looking at four or five hours. Yeah, situation.
Speaker 2: Those guys, I I am so glad they escaped. So
Speaker 2: glad because I think that and I do not know
Speaker 2: the mind of a terrorist, right, but I think that
Speaker 2: Monas and the way he was treating some of the men,
Speaker 2: he was dehumanizing them, and he was referring to them
Speaker 2: as white shirt. For example, he referred to Deartry as manager,
Speaker 2: you know, whereas the women he tended to use our names.
Speaker 2: He referred to my mother as Luisa's mother. But you know,
Speaker 2: like then she was irritating him, you know. So so
Speaker 2: the first lot of when the first lot of hostages escaped,
Speaker 2: obviously the terrorist and us we thought that the police
Speaker 2: were coming. We just assumed that that was what was
Speaker 2: happening in the moment, so where there was a big
Speaker 2: noise and then three of them ran out, and then
Speaker 2: we're all on our feet like, ah, you know, it's
Speaker 2: kind of screaming, et cetera. And of course he grabbed
Speaker 2: me because I just happened to be the first person
Speaker 2: in his eye of sight, so he grabbed me. He's
Speaker 2: got me by the back of my dress, and he's
Speaker 2: got the gun, and I'm thinking, great, the police are
Speaker 2: going to come. They're going to try and shoot him,
Speaker 2: and they'll shoot me and I'm definitely going to die,
Speaker 2: you know, so like that, and of course what had
Speaker 2: happened was that they had all escaped, and it was
Speaker 2: only that once again Jared morten Hoffman was quick enough
Speaker 2: to think to shout at him, the police aren't coming.
Speaker 2: They've escaped. They've escaped. So it was only in that
Speaker 2: moment that it suddenly took down the temperature, you know,
Speaker 2: in the room, because and it was later he actually
Speaker 2: said to the group, he said, you will should thank
Speaker 2: Jared that he was quick enough to tell me that
Speaker 2: the police weren't coming, that they had escaped, because oh,
Speaker 2: I killed that woman. That woman be me of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that puts you. You're smiling got I said
Speaker 1: you're a nice lady at the start of the podcast,
Speaker 1: and I do understand it, and we'll explain it and
Speaker 1: explain it again because I think people that have seen
Speaker 1: horrific situations, been in horrific situations, and police experience that
Speaker 1: quite often people don't understand how you laugh. But it
Speaker 1: is a coping mechanism, isn't it. You've got to otherwise
Speaker 1: you get dragged into this dark hole that's very hard,
Speaker 1: too hard to get out. But I'm going to take
Speaker 1: you in that hole right now. That must have been
Speaker 1: like the chaos of because they ran out the door,
Speaker 1: they saw an opportunity, ran out the door. You're all
Speaker 1: on your feet. He's panicking, a heightened state of alert,
Speaker 1: and he's grabbed you, and you've got a gun in
Speaker 1: his hand. At the best scenario, the police are coming
Speaker 1: in the door and they're going to try and take
Speaker 1: him out, but you're virtually he's human shield or he's
Speaker 1: going to react violently and shoot you. As he said,
Speaker 1: he was considering what was going through your mind at
Speaker 1: that point in time. Is that a point in time
Speaker 1: when you think this is it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, not wanting to be glib about this,
Speaker 2: but I have an easy relationship with death and that
Speaker 2: has to do with my faith. And so you know,
Speaker 2: once I kind of realized right from the beginning really
Speaker 2: that this could be it, I started to understand something
Speaker 2: about myself. So this is a little side story, but
Speaker 2: you know, and that was that we all understand the
Speaker 2: concept of body, mind and spirit. You know, we talk
Speaker 2: about it, and you know, there's a lot of money
Speaker 2: made out of it, all that kind of thing. But
Speaker 2: during the siege, I actually experienced it in real time
Speaker 2: within myself. In that and it wasn't just an idea
Speaker 2: or a concept or a philosophy. It was I could
Speaker 2: feel it physically within myself. So in my head, my
Speaker 2: logical head, I could not see a way forward. I
Speaker 2: really thought that we and I would die. In my heart,
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: Oh, my God, what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: Ah?
Speaker 2: Panic, But in my gut, in the depth of my
Speaker 2: very being, I had an overwhelmed sense of calm. And
Speaker 2: you know, people who are familiar would understand, you know,
Speaker 2: the peace of God that surpasses all understanding, keeps you
Speaker 2: anchored in that suredness that whether I lived or I
Speaker 2: died that day. Ultimately for me, it didn't matter.
Speaker 1: I go on.
Speaker 2: So you know, that was core to my being and
Speaker 2: my thinking. So but experiencing it in real time and
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, gosh, I've only just come to understand this,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to die, you know, like and so
Speaker 2: you know that, so that gave me a certain amount
Speaker 2: of psycho emotional freedom. So yeah, in that moment.
Speaker 1: This is it.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it was. Like, I definitely thought I
Speaker 2: was going to die.
Speaker 1: Then, well, like, full credit to you to be able
Speaker 1: to process all that, come to terms with it, and
Speaker 1: it must be comforting to have that feeling and be
Speaker 1: able to find your peace at that moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it lets you. It enables you to see.
Speaker 1: Clearly, Okay, they've run out, police haven't come in, you
Speaker 1: haven't been shot. What's attention in the room?
Speaker 2: Like after that, well, you know, we had a moment
Speaker 2: of being like, oh my god, and then everyone sits down,
Speaker 2: calms down. So we go back to trying to get
Speaker 2: him media attention, and you know, the days progressing and
Speaker 2: we're not getting very far without media attention, and of
Speaker 2: course there's listening on phones and things like that. He
Speaker 2: didn't have a phone that day, or if he did,
Speaker 2: it was in his backpack, et cetera. But so he's
Speaker 2: getting other people to use their phones, and at one
Speaker 2: point we had to recharge phones because everyone's phone's running out.
Speaker 2: So anyway, there was all of that kind of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's where we are. We are waiting, waiting.
Speaker 1: Right, just sitting there waiting. I've experienced in policing times
Speaker 1: where the adrenaline hits you a life threatening situation and
Speaker 1: then the calm down and all that, people react differently.
Speaker 1: And you said that it's amazing people weren't throwing up
Speaker 1: and that, because I've seen people where the adrenaline's just
Speaker 1: taken through the roof and then it's come down. Were
Speaker 1: you guys experiencing that or where were You've explained where
Speaker 1: you were getting you come from? What about the other people?
Speaker 1: Were you relying on the other people in the same
Speaker 1: situation where you're drawing strength from others?
Speaker 2: I'd say, you know, definitely. So you know, just watching
Speaker 2: everybody else and you know some very smart people in
Speaker 2: that room actually, you know, and the collective sense of
Speaker 2: calm and control and waiting, I'd say that that was
Speaker 2: strong the strongest vibe in the room.
Speaker 1: Really my assessment of the situation. If you lot were
Speaker 1: creating you lot being the hostages creating chaos, he potentially
Speaker 1: could have reacted very irrationally that it could have been
Speaker 1: a lot worse.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, definitely. I mean, you know, for example,
Speaker 2: like I said earlier, he didn't like my mother's tone.
Speaker 2: And at one stage he told me, he said, Louisa,
Speaker 2: keep your mother quiet. And I'm thinking, you're not serious,
Speaker 2: are you keep my mother quiet?
Speaker 1: I've been trying to do that for years.
Speaker 3: It's impossible.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I had that little moment. It's the
Speaker 2: only time I actually spoke to her, and I turned
Speaker 2: to her and I said, Mum, you're an old lady.
Speaker 2: You have to be quiet and just not say anything.
Speaker 2: And you know, the whole time, I'm getting the daggers
Speaker 2: from her saying like, you know, wait till we get home.
Speaker 2: You can't talk to me like that. So anyway, but yes,
Speaker 2: so he was. He was definitely controlling.
Speaker 1: And you said his attitude towards the men were a
Speaker 1: little bit different. Was that he was struggling for his
Speaker 1: insecurities with power or what was that about it?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess he saw them as the most threatening,
Speaker 2: you know, they could physically overpower him. He softened, you know,
Speaker 2: like for example, when the younger ones were helping him
Speaker 2: with the media and social media and the technology and
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff with the phones, he softened
Speaker 2: and a little bit around them, the younger guys, and
Speaker 2: started to refer to them by name. But certainly he
Speaker 2: had that keeping the men away. Unfortunately, those three men
Speaker 2: escaped initially, so that was really good.
Speaker 1: Did you, like, you've been in there now six eight hours.
Speaker 1: Were you trying to process the type of person. Were
Speaker 1: you trying to get a sense of who he was, like,
Speaker 1: what triggers him, what doesn't trigger him? What was the
Speaker 1: sense of where did you think he was coming from?
Speaker 1: Did you think mental healthful? Did you think terrorists in
Speaker 1: the truest sense with his ideology? What was it?
Speaker 2: This is always the question, isn't it. You know, there's
Speaker 2: just so much reflection around this, you know, was it
Speaker 2: really a terrorist event? And I'm thinking, yeah, it really
Speaker 2: was a terrorist event. But I only thought that after
Speaker 2: I went to the inquest. In the moment, I thought
Speaker 2: the few things about him was that he was very articulate,
Speaker 2: He had an accent of course, so he was making
Speaker 2: a really big effort to be clear in his instruction actions.
Speaker 2: So there was that, So that's why it was articulate,
Speaker 2: and that he made such a point of being very
Speaker 2: careful about that, so he's aware of that in himself.
Speaker 2: He was well. Actually, my mother she noticed that he
Speaker 2: was very clean and neat and tidy, which I love you.
Speaker 1: I love your mom.
Speaker 3: You've got to love take.
Speaker 2: She was even noticing that he had that. You remember
Speaker 2: how we used to do it in the in the eighties,
Speaker 2: which so the iron the seam into our genes, and
Speaker 2: she said, she commented that he had that, so someone
Speaker 2: had owned those trousers for him, you know, love is
Speaker 2: I'm thinking somebody did anyway.
Speaker 1: So sorry we laugh at it, but the wisdom of
Speaker 1: that that is quite telling, Like I wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: thinking about that, So someone's taken the trouble to because
Speaker 1: that does tell you a little bit a person. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the fact that your mum that we're seeing here laughing,
Speaker 1: but she was the one that something doesn't look right
Speaker 1: about that, so maybe we should listen to our elders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well see she noticed the detail. She noticed she
Speaker 2: knew how many people were in the cafe.
Speaker 3: I never counted, but.
Speaker 2: She knew, and she got an internal she had an
Speaker 2: internal clock. She knew what time it was, even if
Speaker 2: she couldn't see her at the time, so she could
Speaker 2: tell you what time it was when blah blah happened.
Speaker 2: But yes, that's right, that's the thing about her. But anyway,
Speaker 2: on the day, I was just trying to keep it quiet.
Speaker 1: But yes, okay, So the next significant event that occurred
Speaker 1: in the siege was the further hostages escaped. Now tell
Speaker 1: us about that, because that was the two girls.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: They were hiding or out of sight from him under
Speaker 1: a table. But I think can clarify if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: I think after the first group of hostages escaped, the
Speaker 1: three that got out first, he said, if anyone else escapes,
Speaker 1: people are going to be killed.
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He made it very
Speaker 2: clear that if anyone else tried to escape that he
Speaker 2: would kill someone in retribution. Okay, then we all knew that.
Speaker 2: So these two young girls, they were lint workers. You know,
Speaker 2: it was a very coincidence. But you know, all the
Speaker 2: young lint workers were young women. To teach young women.
Speaker 2: They had the Linch uniform on, which is black with
Speaker 2: a long apron, and they all had long, dark hair.
Speaker 2: So it just happened to be the way it was
Speaker 2: on the day, right, And so who they were, they
Speaker 2: kind of you know, were together. But he told us
Speaker 2: that that, you know, someone was going to get killed.
Speaker 2: So then we're all sitting there, busy getting it. You're
Speaker 2: trying to get him this media attention, and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, like that, something happened. What happened? Now,
Speaker 2: I actually didn't see them escape, but I could tell
Speaker 2: the vibe something happened as a feeling in there. Something
Speaker 2: had happened. But what was that something? So anyway, we're
Speaker 2: all standing there or the others are going, I don't
Speaker 2: know what do you mean something? What he said and
Speaker 2: he was going cops, you know, was at cops around.
Speaker 2: We can't see the cops, you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: So everyone's trying to divert his attention. I didn't even
Speaker 2: realize I'd escaped, because you know, Lind had this giant
Speaker 2: Christmas Teddy Bear cardboard cutout and they had managed to
Speaker 2: somehow crawl. I had been on the floor I'm sick,
Speaker 2: I'm dying, I'm terrified, And they managed to crawl around
Speaker 2: behind the Teddy Bear and then sneak out the side door,
Speaker 2: which I quite in a retrospect, I think, my goodness,
Speaker 2: you girls, how did you do that? But they managed it,
Speaker 2: which was really great. So there was two less hostages
Speaker 2: after the three and then those two. So the thing is,
Speaker 2: of course, what that created within the media. The media
Speaker 2: were rightly reporting all day that three people had escaped.
Speaker 2: The two people, so they're referring to five people had escaped,
Speaker 2: And so what happened every hour on the hour on
Speaker 2: the hour when that was being reported from outside coming
Speaker 2: and we're listening on the phones, we'd have to say
Speaker 2: to him, Oh, that's so wrong, that's not true. You
Speaker 2: know what. The media they're lying, that's not what happened.
Speaker 2: There's only three escaped, So we had to try and
Speaker 2: dumb down the fact that two extra had escaped.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I understand that there that the two that
Speaker 1: when they escaped, he didn't realize to escape. There was
Speaker 1: something change of the atmosphere or all the tension in
Speaker 1: the room. And then the media are reporting three have escaped.
Speaker 1: Now five escaped. And you had the sense of mind
Speaker 1: to convince him that that's just the media stuff.
Speaker 2: Fortunately for us, the media we're reporting the five, not
Speaker 2: oh three escaped and then two escaped. They didn't report
Speaker 2: it like that that we heard, and so we were
Speaker 2: able to convince him that you can't trust the media.
Speaker 2: They're lying, they're making that up, you know, feed into
Speaker 2: that conspiracy theory thing. It's going on in his head.
Speaker 2: But he absolutely it was really touch and go because
Speaker 2: if he had not, if he had done as my
Speaker 2: mother had done and counted how many people there were
Speaker 2: in there, but he hadn't, so he didn't realize that
Speaker 2: those two girls had gone.
Speaker 1: Out, and if he saw those two girls get out, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hypothetical now he didn't, but I think you guys
Speaker 1: would have been at risk or someone would.
Speaker 2: Definitely, because he would have had to have killed one
Speaker 2: of us, because that's what he'd said he'd done, so
Speaker 2: you know exactly he would have had to follow through.
Speaker 1: What was your feeling there, and it's a very complex situation.
Speaker 1: What was your feeling there when the girls did escape,
Speaker 1: given the threat that he made, did you were you angry?
Speaker 3: Happy?
Speaker 1: Can you talk about it?
Speaker 3: What right I have to.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't see them get out. Everyone
Speaker 2: was in a slightly different position, and that's something I
Speaker 2: did not see. And so it took me a little
Speaker 2: while to actually think, hang on a minute, she's not here, so,
Speaker 2: you know. But so it took me a little while
Speaker 2: to work out the literally something that had gone those
Speaker 2: girls so and in the moment, I was like, God,
Speaker 2: how brave are they, you know, to do that, and
Speaker 2: grateful that they'd gotten out, but also at the same time,
Speaker 2: I was well aware that if he clicked, if he
Speaker 2: suddenly had a moment where he went hang on a minute,
Speaker 2: then we would have been in trouble.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's just a horrible, horrible situation, is and all
Speaker 1: those mixed emotions. How long have you been there? When
Speaker 1: the two girls escape, Roughly.
Speaker 2: I think it's late afternoon by then, I think, yeah.
Speaker 1: How are you coping physically and mentally at that point
Speaker 1: in time, because that's that's the hearts, the stresses right
Speaker 1: up there.
Speaker 2: Definitely, you know, all those kind of moments, and it
Speaker 2: was it was definitely like that. It wasn't static, It
Speaker 2: wasn't it was constantly moving and constantly going up and down,
Speaker 2: and so you know, the for me physically, fortunately, thank goodness,
Speaker 2: have toilet breaks and different stages. He gave us water,
Speaker 2: he was not drinking, and very late in the evening
Speaker 2: he told the cafe workers to go and get like
Speaker 2: tea and some food for people. But you know at
Speaker 2: the point where my mother had stood up and said,
Speaker 2: I want to go to the bathroom and my daughter
Speaker 2: needs her medication. See, this is the thing about this man,
Speaker 2: you see, and that is that when my mother said that,
Speaker 2: he first thing he did was call me over to
Speaker 2: sit right next to him. Which I was like, oh no,
Speaker 2: if the cops come right now, I'm right next to him.
Speaker 2: So anyways, sit right next to him, and he says,
Speaker 2: why do you need medication? So then I explained to
Speaker 2: him about MS, and he wanted to know everything about
Speaker 2: MS and how I got it and what it does
Speaker 2: and how I feel and blah blah blah. So anyway,
Speaker 2: he says, where is your medication? I said, it's in
Speaker 2: my handbag, So get Louisa's handbag. So they bring my
Speaker 2: red handbag over to me and he says, you can
Speaker 2: get your medication. So I pulled out my rather large
Speaker 2: top ofware water bottle and I put it on the table,
Speaker 2: and then I went down into my handbag to get
Speaker 2: my medication, which actually was not for a mess. It
Speaker 2: was just painkillers. And I took two of those tablets.
Speaker 2: And then so I did all of that and that
Speaker 2: was great. And then a little bit later on, he
Speaker 2: puts his hand on my water bottle and he says, Louisa,
Speaker 2: anytime you need your medication, you don't have to ask me.
Speaker 2: It's okay. You just help yourself to your medication. And
Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, he thinks my medication is in
Speaker 2: this water bottle. And I didn't have the heart. I
Speaker 2: just said, thank you, brother very much, my god. But
Speaker 2: you know, so here's this man, right, he's holding a sausage.
Speaker 2: He has threatened my very life. He's used me, you know,
Speaker 2: like you said, as a human shield. But then there
Speaker 2: he is so concerned that I have an illness that
Speaker 2: needs medication. What is this duplicitous, double minded thinking in
Speaker 2: this man? You know, it's the same kind of man
Speaker 2: that tells his mother or his wife or other that
Speaker 2: he loves her and then assaults.
Speaker 3: Her, okay, bashes it to a pop.
Speaker 2: It's that same kind of thinking. What is that violence.
Speaker 1: So, and I suppose seeing someone like that and appreciating
Speaker 1: that there are ways of plaicating and manipulating the situation
Speaker 1: from your point of view with him. Okay, so you are,
Speaker 1: you're a smart lady. So and yeah, you're sitting there,
Speaker 1: you're processing all this and thinking, okay, this is the
Speaker 1: way that we've got to deal with this person. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll have a breaking a sect. But the iconic image
Speaker 1: of that day was the hostages up with the up
Speaker 1: against the windows. Talk us through through that. How that
Speaker 1: played out.
Speaker 2: Well, that started very quickly in the day. He is,
Speaker 2: you know, having people holding up the flag and standing
Speaker 2: at the windows with the hands up against the windows,
Speaker 2: which must have been so disturbing for everybody to see that.
Speaker 2: And he was rotating people. I mean, once again this
Speaker 2: was a thought. You know, he didn't leave people up
Speaker 2: there like that the whole day. He said you get up,
Speaker 2: you sit down, and he was rotating. And at one
Speaker 2: point you said to me, your turns stand up at
Speaker 2: the window. And I said to him, but I might
Speaker 2: fall because I had my walking stick. And I showed
Speaker 2: him my walking stick. Ah, he says, and he says,
Speaker 2: put the walking stick dest I'll put the walking stick
Speaker 2: on the floor, and then he kicks the walking stick
Speaker 2: out of my reach. Okay, right, okay, you don't have
Speaker 2: to stand at the window. And then a little bit later,
Speaker 2: after he'd finished giving instructions in that section, he looked
Speaker 2: at me and he made this sort of like sympathetic face.
Speaker 2: You're sorry about the walkings, but you understand, you know,
Speaker 2: like I would understand that he couldn't let me have
Speaker 2: my walking stick, And I went, yes, I understand. But
Speaker 2: you know, it's just how weird, is that right?
Speaker 3: It's terribly weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, like one hand he here's this
Speaker 2: you hideous, ferocious terrorist, and the other hand he's well
Speaker 2: mannered and thoughtful, double mindedness, you know. But see that's
Speaker 2: just how simple it is, like and you imagine living
Speaker 2: with someone like that one minute violent and next minute sweet.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's I know the break. I think you've taken me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And as I said, I worked on the case, I
Speaker 1: did the crime soon, but you've taken me in there
Speaker 1: in a way that I haven't really appreciated, and the
Speaker 1: way that you're articulating it. I thank you so much.
Speaker 1: We're going to leave you in there now and I
Speaker 1: apologize for that, but when we come back, we'll pick
Speaker 1: up from where we left off. But yeah, thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing these experiences, Louisa. It's just that it's taken
Speaker 1: everyone into that situation you found yourself in.