WEBVTT - Held hostage in the Lindt Cafe Siege: Louisa Hope Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.599 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.920 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.559 mentioned the date, the fifteenth of December twenty fourteen, you 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.280 probably can't remember what you were doing. But if I 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.640 mentioned the link Cafe Siege, I'm sure you'd know exactly 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.760 where you were on that day. Like most people in Australia, 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.520 that Siege is embedded in our psyche. It was a 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.480 day terrorism came to the Sydney CBD eighteen Innocent people 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:13.080 were taken hostage by Man Monus. That siege lasted sixteen hours. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.240 Two hostages, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, lost their lives, 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:19.920 and Man Monus was shot and killed by police in 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.280 order to resolve the siege after Tory had been shot. 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.440 Today's guest, Louisa Hope was one of the hostages who 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.040 was used as a human shield throughout the siege, and 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.360 she suffered gunshot wounds from bullet fragments. Louisa is going 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.160 to take us right inside the siege and talk about 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.880 the ongoing effects being caught up in such a horrific 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.199 act of terrorism has had on her. I think you'll find, 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.200 like I have, what an impressive kind person. Louisa is 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.280 welcome to I Catchkillers. 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:48.760 Thank you gery, good to be here. 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.400 Yeah. Well, we first met a couple of months ago. 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.720 We're at a book launch slash retirement function for Dave Gore, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.400 retired Detective inspector accounted terrorism experts. When I saw you, 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.800 your face looked for me, and we were talking in 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.560 the same group of people, and then you mentioned your name, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.000 and then I knew exactly who you were because, as 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.840 coincidence would have it, just a couple of days before, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.120 I was speaking to Pamela Young, retired detective inspector that 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.560 knows you, and your name came up and there we 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.600 were at this function and now we're hearing I catch killers. 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:27.200 Yes, it's amazing. I was saying earlier actually that I 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.640 feel like I have more cop friends now than I 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.720 have my normal friends because I just seem to be 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.800 coming up to events and different things that cop sex, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.519 cops and that kind of thing. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.160 Yes, interesting, crew, Well, the two of the good guys 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.160 we Dave and Pamela. So you're picking your friends in 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.680 the cop world wisely, Look, it was almost ten years 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.520 now since Linked cafe. What's your reflections on it from 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.919 the person you were before that time and the person 0:02:58.919 --> 0:02:59.480 you are now. 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.320 The ten year anniversary is a moment, like it's a 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:08.639 moment in time to reflect, and certainly with all the 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.160 things and everything that's happened since then, it certainly has 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.800 come to that point where I am Leah now thinking 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.680 about the whole thing. And I think that previously before 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.240 the siege, because the truth is life is, you know, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.600 before the siege and after the siege. That's how my 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.560 friends and my family measure it as I do too. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:37.360 So before the siege, really I was just living my 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.840 life in my own little bubble, as we all tend 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.880 to do, you know, it's all about we are the 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.480 center of our own world. And so I was just 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:50.600 doing all the fun things. I'd not long got divorced, 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:56.400 and I was single again, and I was unfortunately I 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.520 had to medically retire because of MS, and so that 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.000 was a different world too. So I was traveling and 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:03.640 having fun. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.520 Really, it's funny, isn't it. You don't know what's around 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.200 the corner in life, and your life changed so much 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.960 from that day. The person you are, I would imagine, 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.320 is a different person from what it was the day 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.080 you walked into the cafe, I said before we started 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.680 the podcast, and I want to say it again. I 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.680 apologize for bringing it up and having you talk about that, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.640 because I can understand a traumatic situation like that. When 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.680 you sit down and talk in depth, like we are 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.920 into today, you relive the moment. 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.320 It is true. But the thing is, because I have 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.680 always felt that this event, the siege, it happened to 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.839 not only to myself and the other people in the cafe, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.320 but it really happened to our whole country. So after 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.680 the siege, I definitely had that sense of duty and 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.680 willingness to share with whoever asked me to come and speak, 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.440 you know, because we all have questions. It's fascinating to 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.760 me what people reflect on, you know, when you're out 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.279 there and you're speaking and sharing, what they have to 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.960 say about it and what they think some things are 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.080 some of their information is not correct, and sometimes they 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.200 have an understanding that is well a blessing to me too. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.480 Yeah, okay, well, I understand where you're coming from, and 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.520 I think situations like that it needs to be spoken about. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.560 It shouldn't be swept under the carpet, and we need 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.600 people to understand what the ramifications are when actions are 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.560 taken in the way they were at that siege. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.440 That's right, because it wasn't just a tragedy, you know, 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:42.680 with two innocent people being killed. It was a shock 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.000 and the fact of the matter is, you know, we 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:50.400 had the inquest afterwards, and there is always a question 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:56.240 whether the inquest was sufficient or if perhaps it was 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:01.440 maybe a blunt instrument to consider the whole aspect the event, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.039 because in quests, of course, just focus on the people 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.880 who have died in a particular situation. So yes, there 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.440 was a lot that the inquest just couldn't cover by 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.800 the very nature of its function. So you know, when 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:22.080 we think about that, the fullness of the experience that 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:26.039 we all had collectively, there are things that are still 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.880 not resolved from to my mind, things that are still 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:34.080 not understood. We have not learnt the full God that 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:39.480 have lessons that we could from that event. And I 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:48.240 think that really learning the lessons across the board is 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.119 the least that we can do to honor the people 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:56.480 who passed that, you know, and also benefit our broader 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.680 society as we come together, because I mean, what's the 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.440 use of any experience in life if you don't learn 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:02.880 from it. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.359 And I think if we can be open enough to 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.080 when I say police, like I was involved in aspects 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.000 of it. I led the investigation in the crime scene, 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:13.880 as you know, so I was called out for that. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.720 It was an unusual situation for our law enforcement officers, 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.960 for the New South Wales Police, for the country, for 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.440 Australia as a whole, And you're quite right, like, okay, 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.960 if things could have been done better, and it's a 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.280 benefit of hindsight, it's a wonderful thing so it doesn't 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.120 even necessarily have to be a direct criticism, it's just 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:38.120 what lessons learn from that. And speaking to you, I 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.960 think it's amazing, Like I think the insight that you 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.320 have to what you went through and you can look 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.760 at it and reflect on it, I think it's quite amazing. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.840 And I'm sure it will come out today when we're talking, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.120 because let's be realistic. There was times during that siege 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.880 and it was sixteen hours that you thought you were 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:58.360 going to die. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:04.200 Absolutely definitely. There were three particular occasions where I thought, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.880 this is it, I'm going to go on today. You know. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.000 It was serious, you know, and that really and in 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:17.040 the end with the tragedy of Katrina losing her life 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.160 in that situation at the end and all of us 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.960 who were still in the you know, the main part 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.120 of the cafe at that time, we're all injured and 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.640 you know that we survived. It's quite miraculous. Really, that's 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:35.240 the truth of it. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:40.040 Yeah, yeah, I can only and I suppose it's everyone's 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.120 worst fear, but it's a fear that you look when 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.160 you're watching TV and a movie or something that has 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.319 taken the hostage. And I think when we all get 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.400 on the plane, you think, okay, wonder what happens if 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:52.839 someone got up with a gun, what would go on? 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.840 And he you were it would have almost felt surreal. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.200 I would imagine it absolutely did. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:03.240 It was, you know, actually going when Manhronman has stood 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.360 up and started to make his little speech, I in 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.800 my head, I thought, it's Canda camera. You know, we're 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.880 across the road from Channel seven. It's just a lark. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:14.800 And it wasn't until he pulled out the gun that 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.160 I thought, oh, no, this is real and we're going 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.480 to die, because that's what terrorists do, right They killed you, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.199 and so that was a surprise, not to be killed 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:24.760 on the spot. 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.280 Really yeah, I can only well, I can't imagine unless 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.800 you've been there, who knows how you react or how 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.400 you would feel from that. Let's talk about you before 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.000 the day. Describe your life. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.280 Well, I had a very happy life really and I 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.000 live a very spiritual life. You know, faith is really 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.199 important to me. And so I had my church community, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.360 and I had my group of friends, and I lived 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.680 in a co and you know, not far down the road, 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.920 I'd moved into a new place in en More, in Sydney, 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.440 and that was a really happy time for me. Actually, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.880 you know, it was all about going out having fun. 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:07.960 How old were you at the time. 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:13.640 Now, that's a good question. I think I was fifty two, okay, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.720 So yeah, it's a great time in a woman's life 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:16.040 to be. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:21.199 Fifty okay and living in Nurskyville. Oh yeah, it's a fun, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.319 fun time. Pad by all. So yourself and your mother, Robin, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.960 that's right, I went to the cafe. What was that 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.040 about the catch up or were you meet people? 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.679 Actually I had in that week and actually I was 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:39.000 in Texas. I was in Austin, Texas, and I'd been 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.280 doing some helping mum with some legal stuff. And she 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:43.760 rang me and said, oh, you need to come home 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.720 early because you know, we need to get it sorted out. Okay, 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.320 So I come home early, so close to Christmas, you know, 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.480 we're all just focused there. So anyway, we had an 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.560 appointment with just with a family lawyer, so no big deal, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.719 you know, it's ordinary business. And there we were, and 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.640 we had because we didn't want to be late, because 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.040 Mum lived out near the Blue Mountains at the time, 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.040 and because you didn't want to be late, we made 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.240 the decision that we would go in on the Sunday 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.040 on the Sunday night and that we would then not 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.200 get caught up in the traffic, you know, Monday morning, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:18.880 and that's what we did. We're at the Hilton and 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.400 we had that moment actually Gary, where we're just sort 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.720 of deciding where we would have breakfast because our appointment, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.280 I think was maybe at ten, and we were like, 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.000 will we stay at the Hilton or will we go 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.760 up to the land and because you know that's the 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.480 where his office was, in the tower block behind the 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.440 lind and so will we won't. We don't want a 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.520 big breakfast, We'll just go up and have coffee and toast. 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:43.760 So that's what we did. We just jumped in the cabin. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:46.440 We just slid through that door and into the lint, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.680 you know, and you just things that you don't even 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.560 bother about. You know, which cafe will I go to? 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.000 Where will I have breakfast? No big deal, ordinary, you know. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.640 Just one. So just that typical, typical morning. We've all 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.400 been for a cafe, not big breakfast, let's go grab 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.720 a coffee. You've gone in there, so you're sitting down. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:09.800 What was your impression when you walked into the cafe? 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:10.760 Had you been there before. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:12.920 Yes, you know, I used to work in the city 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:18.000 and Lint was you know, a regular place, and yeah, 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:19.640 it was no big deal kind of thing. 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:19.880 You know. 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.959 The one thing we did now just was young Jared 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:27.600 morten Hoffmann. He was our server that morning, and he 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.440 looked a little bit not wanting to be there, and 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.640 you know like, oh, and I said to my mum 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.440 something like that kid doesn't look very have you, And 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.600 she said, oh, well, you know you had to get 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.320 up early, and I said, always going to be in 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.040 for a long day then, not imagining, of course, but 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.720 you know, just sort of ordinary observations. So that was 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.000 you know, me like just not interested really in what 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:55.600 was going. 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.520 On again, just that typical day and the young young 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.840 people working way might happen. It's ridiculous hour hour of 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.760 the morning. So was there anything else about the environment 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.280 that seemed unusual to me? 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.000 It's just that pretty Christmas thing. But I have to 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:13.360 tell you that my mother, Robin, so yeah, bumps of 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.200 Mom's a very interesting woman and classic salt of the 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.600 earth kind of thing and do anything for anyone that 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.080 kind of person and always going over and beyond. But 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.600 this particular day we're sitting there. And as it was, 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.240 she was sitting on the bench seat at the lint. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.640 If anyone's been there, there's a bench seat that runs 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.840 along the mountain place side, and I was sitting facing 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.199 her with my back to the main body of the cafe. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.840 So Mom's sitting there, We've got her coffee, waiting for toast, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.640 and she says, what's that man doing over there? And 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.960 I'm like, what man, mum chat chat carrying on? She said, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.360 why is that man sitting there? That must be the manager, 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.920 she says, and I'm like, Mum, She says, well, do 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.520 you just he just doesn't look right. So I kind 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.680 of like did the big turn around to see what 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.080 she was talking. I said, don't look now, that kind 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.240 of thing. And so I'm like, well, Mom, don't worry 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.000 about it. Just leave him to his breakfast, no big 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.480 deal anyway. But she kept rabbiting on about this chap 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.840 that she just didn't feel was in the right place, 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.679 and she's commenting about him, you know, on and off 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.240 through our breakfast. In the end, I'm like, Mom, just relaxed, 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.880 don't worry about that man anyway. You know. It's sort 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.400 of since then has reminded me, of course, that one 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.360 should always listen to what one's mother says. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:30.240 What would they know? 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.080 Yeah, exact. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.920 But isn't an interesting instinct than something just didn't feel right? 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.040 And I think it can come down to it almost 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.640 like an energy, someone putting out the wrong energy. But 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:41.960 it's interesting that your mum picked up on. 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.000 That though, well she certainly did. It was her intuition, 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.760 you know, And how often do we dismiss our intuition. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.680 I mean, of course I wouldn't have prompted us to 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.480 get up and run out of the cafe or anything, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.640 but just that she was aware, and just that I 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.560 was dismissive. But yeah, so he was obviously at that 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.720 very the early stage talking to Tory Johnson, as I 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.400 understand now, got him to make a phone call to 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:08.120 Triple O that kind of thing. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.480 Okay, how it played out, as I understand, was that 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.040 man Momus sat down at a table on his own, 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.480 spoke to one of the staff and said, who's your manager? 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.800 And the manager Tory came out and sat down and 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.520 was having the conversation with him, and that's when men 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:27.040 and Momus told him this is what's happening. When did 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.880 you realize something terrible was about to take place. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.200 I was sitting there and we had made that decision 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.480 not to go upstairs, that we'd have another coffee, you know, 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:36.840 another sliding door moment. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.080 But we dan that extra coffee, I know, right. 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.200 But then there was this little buzz around the cafe 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.880 that went, oh, the doors are locked, and I thought, oh, 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.640 that's ridiculous. You know. Well, I'm just I'll call the 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.440 building manager and they'll sort it out, no big deal. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.240 But in the meantime, I'll just go and pay for 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.800 our coffee. So I got up and went to pay 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:59.720 for my breakfast, and once again, the way the counter was, 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.400 I was facing out, looking out onto the corner of 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.840 Phillips Street and George Street, a mutain place, rather through 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.480 the door. And yeah, the little girl who was serving 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.600 me was just She's had a mouth open and I 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.840 couldn't see what she could see. And I'm thinking, what's 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:20.640 wrong with this kid? 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:21.000 You know? 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.240 But of course she could see him standing up and 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.200 making his speech, And so we did the exchange with 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.760 the money. I turned around to go back to my 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.920 seat and there he was. And it was only then 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.360 that I realized that something was a mess. And as 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.840 I said, to you earlier. You know, it wasn't until 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.880 he pulled out his gun that I actually thought it 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:43.760 was real. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.360 He's standing up. Was he talking or shouting? Was what 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:49.680 was being said? 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:50.920 No, he was. 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:56.680 Talking very deliberately, speaking very deliberately and not shouting, certainly 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.480 not quiet, but just in a normal voice, telling us 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:04.879 that we were hostages and that he was wanting to 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.439 speak to the Prime Minister on national radio and that 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.760 Australia was under attack. And at the same time, he 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.880 was putting on his bandanna that he had around his head, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.399 and then he pulled out his gun. And then it 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.640 was like, that's real. The gun was real. 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.040 Okay, So I think in the conversation he had with Tori, 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.800 he got the staff to lock the doors, and then 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:31.120 you've paid for your coffee, and then he's standing up, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.400 and then he put the bandanna on and pulled out 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.840 the gun. I got what was going through your mind? 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.479 Well, in the moment, once I realized that it just 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:46.280 wasn't some sort of candid camera joke, really, I just went, 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:51.720 we're dead, because that's what terrorists do. They don't mess around, 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:53.920 you know, And I thought we're all going to die. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.640 Quite literally, that was my thought, and it was that 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.320 kind of moment of Okay, this is it, this is 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:03.720 my dying day, you know. Really that's how I was thinking. 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.560 Yeah, well, it's understandable because if you've caught up in 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.640 the bank robbery, the objective there is not to kill 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.960 hostages or get attention. But when you're caught up in 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.200 the situation that's been declared a terrorist, it's a reasonable 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.840 assumption to think this is not going to end in nicely. 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.720 No, that's right, definitely, you know. And then of course 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.879 he started to place everybody around the room and pulled 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.520 the women in close to him and the men out 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.359 on the outer ring, and putting people up at the 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:38.320 windows with his sign and things like that. He's been 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.520 a little flag that he had, and so there was 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.000 all of that going on as well, And of course 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.080 in the room where all strangers, all of us who 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.640 are customers, and of course the staff knew each other, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.200 but we didn't know each other, so we're just randomly 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.679 there and yeah, it was like, well, what's next, and 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.800 so he's giving instruction all that kind of thing. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.439 So let me just talk through that, because getting the 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.920 feel of what you went through there, he's declared it's 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.639 a terrorist act. He's got the women around him as 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.679 you would see, like it literally a human shield, putting 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.000 the men around the outer perimeter in a circle, getting 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.600 the flag and the signs up against the window. Concern 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.560 for yourself, you're there with your mother, What you had 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:28.480 concerns for your mother? 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:29.960 Because oh yeah, you. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.240 Know, definitely, because well two things. Of course, one is 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.639 concerned for one's mother and everybody else. But for me 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.080 in particular, my concern about my mother was that I 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.040 knew that she would not be taking this kind of crap. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:50.840 Quite frankly, say that exactly, you know, like, because you 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.080 know I knew her and she would not have liked 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:56.639 his behavior. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:58.240 Don't be ridiculous, young man. 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.879 Actually yeah, it was a situation like that. But you know, 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.120 so my concern was just trying to keep her quiet 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.480 and still and just you know, breathe mum. But of 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.800 course he once he realized that we were related, he 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.960 separated us. So for example, the way he positioned us, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.000 I could not see her. Mum was actually seated behind 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.480 me on the bench and I was seated and he 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.480 faced me towards him. And yeah, so. 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:27.880 Did you get a chance to speak to your mom, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.320 like to communicate with your mum right at the. 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.560 Start, just a little bit, but not much, you know, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.200 mainly through you know, just what was saying with her eyes. 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.560 But funnily enough, he was on it, like he was 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.720 on all of us about keeping our eyes closed and 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.320 not like giving each other signals or anything like that, 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:50.080 and definitely sort of being aware of people can talk 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.200 apart from words and so yes, so there was very 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.760 little opportunity for that. And only at one point he 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.760 actually instructed me to speak to my mother, So that 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.280 was peculiar in itself, but that really was my concern 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.440 with mum, just trying to keep her calm. 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.200 I could well, when I say, I could imagine, and 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.200 I'll probably trip up on that throughout this I can't imagine. 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.880 It's just it's a surreal situation that ninety nine point 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.800 ninety nine percent of people never find themselves in. You're 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.120 sitting there, You got this person. How is his behavior? 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.639 Is it Arabic or is it controlled or no? 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:35.639 He's calm, very deliberate in fact, and in lots of ways. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.400 It was like he had thought through a lot of things, 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.040 but there are other things that he hadn't thought about. 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.320 But then of course, really the man had originally planned 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.040 to go to Channel seven, and because he couldn't get 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.240