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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I

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Speaker 1: mentioned the date, the fifteenth of December twenty fourteen, you

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Speaker 1: probably can't remember what you were doing. But if I

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Speaker 1: mentioned the link Cafe Siege, I'm sure you'd know exactly

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Speaker 1: where you were on that day. Like most people in Australia,

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Speaker 1: that Siege is embedded in our psyche. It was a

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Speaker 1: day terrorism came to the Sydney CBD eighteen Innocent people

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Speaker 1: were taken hostage by Man Monus. That siege lasted sixteen hours.

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Speaker 1: Two hostages, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, lost their lives,

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Speaker 1: and Man Monus was shot and killed by police in

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Speaker 1: order to resolve the siege after Tory had been shot.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest, Louisa Hope was one of the hostages who

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Speaker 1: was used as a human shield throughout the siege, and

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Speaker 1: she suffered gunshot wounds from bullet fragments. Louisa is going

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Speaker 1: to take us right inside the siege and talk about

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Speaker 1: the ongoing effects being caught up in such a horrific

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Speaker 1: act of terrorism has had on her. I think you'll find,

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Speaker 1: like I have, what an impressive kind person. Louisa is

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Speaker 1: welcome to I Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you gery, good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we first met a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 1: We're at a book launch slash retirement function for Dave Gore,

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Speaker 1: retired Detective inspector accounted terrorism experts. When I saw you,

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Speaker 1: your face looked for me, and we were talking in

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Speaker 1: the same group of people, and then you mentioned your name,

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Speaker 1: and then I knew exactly who you were because, as

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Speaker 1: coincidence would have it, just a couple of days before,

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Speaker 1: I was speaking to Pamela Young, retired detective inspector that

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Speaker 1: knows you, and your name came up and there we

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Speaker 1: were at this function and now we're hearing I catch killers.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's amazing. I was saying earlier actually that I

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Speaker 2: feel like I have more cop friends now than I

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Speaker 2: have my normal friends because I just seem to be

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Speaker 2: coming up to events and different things that cop sex,

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Speaker 2: cops and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, interesting, crew, Well, the two of the good guys

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Speaker 1: we Dave and Pamela. So you're picking your friends in

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Speaker 1: the cop world wisely, Look, it was almost ten years

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Speaker 1: now since Linked cafe. What's your reflections on it from

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Speaker 1: the person you were before that time and the person

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Speaker 1: you are now.

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Speaker 2: The ten year anniversary is a moment, like it's a

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Speaker 2: moment in time to reflect, and certainly with all the

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Speaker 2: things and everything that's happened since then, it certainly has

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Speaker 2: come to that point where I am Leah now thinking

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Speaker 2: about the whole thing. And I think that previously before

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Speaker 2: the siege, because the truth is life is, you know,

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Speaker 2: before the siege and after the siege. That's how my

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Speaker 2: friends and my family measure it as I do too.

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Speaker 2: So before the siege, really I was just living my

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Speaker 2: life in my own little bubble, as we all tend

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Speaker 2: to do, you know, it's all about we are the

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Speaker 2: center of our own world. And so I was just

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Speaker 2: doing all the fun things. I'd not long got divorced,

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Speaker 2: and I was single again, and I was unfortunately I

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Speaker 2: had to medically retire because of MS, and so that

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Speaker 2: was a different world too. So I was traveling and

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Speaker 2: having fun.

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Speaker 1: Really, it's funny, isn't it. You don't know what's around

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Speaker 1: the corner in life, and your life changed so much

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Speaker 1: from that day. The person you are, I would imagine,

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Speaker 1: is a different person from what it was the day

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Speaker 1: you walked into the cafe, I said before we started

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Speaker 1: the podcast, and I want to say it again. I

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Speaker 1: apologize for bringing it up and having you talk about that,

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Speaker 1: because I can understand a traumatic situation like that. When

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Speaker 1: you sit down and talk in depth, like we are

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Speaker 1: into today, you relive the moment.

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Speaker 2: It is true. But the thing is, because I have

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Speaker 2: always felt that this event, the siege, it happened to

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Speaker 2: not only to myself and the other people in the cafe,

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Speaker 2: but it really happened to our whole country. So after

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Speaker 2: the siege, I definitely had that sense of duty and

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Speaker 2: willingness to share with whoever asked me to come and speak,

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Speaker 2: you know, because we all have questions. It's fascinating to

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Speaker 2: me what people reflect on, you know, when you're out

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Speaker 2: there and you're speaking and sharing, what they have to

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Speaker 2: say about it and what they think some things are

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Speaker 2: some of their information is not correct, and sometimes they

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Speaker 2: have an understanding that is well a blessing to me too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, I understand where you're coming from, and

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Speaker 1: I think situations like that it needs to be spoken about.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be swept under the carpet, and we need

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Speaker 1: people to understand what the ramifications are when actions are

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Speaker 1: taken in the way they were at that siege.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because it wasn't just a tragedy, you know,

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Speaker 2: with two innocent people being killed. It was a shock

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Speaker 2: and the fact of the matter is, you know, we

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Speaker 2: had the inquest afterwards, and there is always a question

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Speaker 2: whether the inquest was sufficient or if perhaps it was

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Speaker 2: maybe a blunt instrument to consider the whole aspect the event,

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Speaker 2: because in quests, of course, just focus on the people

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Speaker 2: who have died in a particular situation. So yes, there

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Speaker 2: was a lot that the inquest just couldn't cover by

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Speaker 2: the very nature of its function. So you know, when

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Speaker 2: we think about that, the fullness of the experience that

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Speaker 2: we all had collectively, there are things that are still

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Speaker 2: not resolved from to my mind, things that are still

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Speaker 2: not understood. We have not learnt the full God that

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Speaker 2: have lessons that we could from that event. And I

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Speaker 2: think that really learning the lessons across the board is

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Speaker 2: the least that we can do to honor the people

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Speaker 2: who passed that, you know, and also benefit our broader

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Speaker 2: society as we come together, because I mean, what's the

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Speaker 2: use of any experience in life if you don't learn

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Speaker 2: from it.

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Speaker 1: And I think if we can be open enough to

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Speaker 1: when I say police, like I was involved in aspects

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Speaker 1: of it. I led the investigation in the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: as you know, so I was called out for that.

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Speaker 1: It was an unusual situation for our law enforcement officers,

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Speaker 1: for the New South Wales Police, for the country, for

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Speaker 1: Australia as a whole, And you're quite right, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: if things could have been done better, and it's a

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Speaker 1: benefit of hindsight, it's a wonderful thing so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even necessarily have to be a direct criticism, it's just

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Speaker 1: what lessons learn from that. And speaking to you, I

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Speaker 1: think it's amazing, Like I think the insight that you

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Speaker 1: have to what you went through and you can look

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Speaker 1: at it and reflect on it, I think it's quite amazing.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure it will come out today when we're talking,

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Speaker 1: because let's be realistic. There was times during that siege

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Speaker 1: and it was sixteen hours that you thought you were

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Speaker 1: going to die.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely definitely. There were three particular occasions where I thought,

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Speaker 2: this is it, I'm going to go on today. You know.

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Speaker 2: It was serious, you know, and that really and in

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Speaker 2: the end with the tragedy of Katrina losing her life

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Speaker 2: in that situation at the end and all of us

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Speaker 2: who were still in the you know, the main part

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Speaker 2: of the cafe at that time, we're all injured and

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Speaker 2: you know that we survived. It's quite miraculous. Really, that's

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Speaker 2: the truth of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can only and I suppose it's everyone's

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Speaker 1: worst fear, but it's a fear that you look when

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Speaker 1: you're watching TV and a movie or something that has

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Speaker 1: taken the hostage. And I think when we all get

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Speaker 1: on the plane, you think, okay, wonder what happens if

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Speaker 1: someone got up with a gun, what would go on?

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Speaker 1: And he you were it would have almost felt surreal.

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Speaker 3: I would imagine it absolutely did.

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Speaker 2: It was, you know, actually going when Manhronman has stood

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Speaker 2: up and started to make his little speech, I in

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Speaker 2: my head, I thought, it's Canda camera. You know, we're

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Speaker 2: across the road from Channel seven. It's just a lark.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't until he pulled out the gun that

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh, no, this is real and we're going

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Speaker 2: to die, because that's what terrorists do, right They killed you,

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Speaker 2: and so that was a surprise, not to be killed

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Speaker 2: on the spot.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, I can only well, I can't imagine unless

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Speaker 1: you've been there, who knows how you react or how

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Speaker 1: you would feel from that. Let's talk about you before

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Speaker 1: the day. Describe your life.

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Speaker 2: Well, I had a very happy life really and I

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Speaker 2: live a very spiritual life. You know, faith is really

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Speaker 2: important to me. And so I had my church community,

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Speaker 2: and I had my group of friends, and I lived

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Speaker 2: in a co and you know, not far down the road,

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Speaker 2: I'd moved into a new place in en More, in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and that was a really happy time for me. Actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was all about going out having fun.

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Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.

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Speaker 2: Now, that's a good question. I think I was fifty two, okay,

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a great time in a woman's life

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 1: Fifty okay and living in Nurskyville. Oh yeah, it's a fun,

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Speaker 1: fun time. Pad by all. So yourself and your mother, Robin,

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Speaker 1: that's right, I went to the cafe. What was that

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Speaker 1: about the catch up or were you meet people?

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Speaker 2: Actually I had in that week and actually I was

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Speaker 2: in Texas. I was in Austin, Texas, and I'd been

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Speaker 2: doing some helping mum with some legal stuff. And she

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Speaker 2: rang me and said, oh, you need to come home

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Speaker 2: early because you know, we need to get it sorted out. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I come home early, so close to Christmas, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're all just focused there. So anyway, we had an

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Speaker 2: appointment with just with a family lawyer, so no big deal,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's ordinary business. And there we were, and

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Speaker 2: we had because we didn't want to be late, because

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Speaker 2: Mum lived out near the Blue Mountains at the time,

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Speaker 2: and because you didn't want to be late, we made

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Speaker 2: the decision that we would go in on the Sunday

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Speaker 2: on the Sunday night and that we would then not

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Speaker 2: get caught up in the traffic, you know, Monday morning,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we did. We're at the Hilton and

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Speaker 2: we had that moment actually Gary, where we're just sort

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Speaker 2: of deciding where we would have breakfast because our appointment,

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Speaker 2: I think was maybe at ten, and we were like,

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Speaker 2: will we stay at the Hilton or will we go

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Speaker 2: up to the land and because you know that's the

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Speaker 2: where his office was, in the tower block behind the

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Speaker 2: lind and so will we won't. We don't want a

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Speaker 2: big breakfast, We'll just go up and have coffee and toast.

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Speaker 2: So that's what we did. We just jumped in the cabin.

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Speaker 2: We just slid through that door and into the lint,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you just things that you don't even

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Speaker 2: bother about. You know, which cafe will I go to?

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Speaker 2: Where will I have breakfast? No big deal, ordinary, you know.

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Speaker 1: Just one. So just that typical, typical morning. We've all

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Speaker 1: been for a cafe, not big breakfast, let's go grab

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Speaker 1: a coffee. You've gone in there, so you're sitting down.

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Speaker 1: What was your impression when you walked into the cafe?

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Speaker 1: Had you been there before.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I used to work in the city

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Speaker 2: and Lint was you know, a regular place, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was no big deal kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The one thing we did now just was young Jared

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Speaker 2: morten Hoffmann. He was our server that morning, and he

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Speaker 2: looked a little bit not wanting to be there, and

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Speaker 2: you know like, oh, and I said to my mum

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Speaker 2: something like that kid doesn't look very have you, And

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Speaker 2: she said, oh, well, you know you had to get

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Speaker 2: up early, and I said, always going to be in

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Speaker 2: for a long day then, not imagining, of course, but

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Speaker 2: you know, just sort of ordinary observations. So that was

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Speaker 2: you know, me like just not interested really in what

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Speaker 2: was going.

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Speaker 1: On again, just that typical day and the young young

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Speaker 1: people working way might happen. It's ridiculous hour hour of

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Speaker 1: the morning. So was there anything else about the environment

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Speaker 1: that seemed unusual to me?

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Speaker 2: It's just that pretty Christmas thing. But I have to

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Speaker 2: tell you that my mother, Robin, so yeah, bumps of

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Speaker 2: Mom's a very interesting woman and classic salt of the

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Speaker 2: earth kind of thing and do anything for anyone that

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Speaker 2: kind of person and always going over and beyond. But

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Speaker 2: this particular day we're sitting there. And as it was,

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Speaker 2: she was sitting on the bench seat at the lint.

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Speaker 2: If anyone's been there, there's a bench seat that runs

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Speaker 2: along the mountain place side, and I was sitting facing

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Speaker 2: her with my back to the main body of the cafe.

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Speaker 2: So Mom's sitting there, We've got her coffee, waiting for toast,

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Speaker 2: and she says, what's that man doing over there? And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what man, mum chat chat carrying on? She said,

250
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Speaker 2: why is that man sitting there? That must be the manager,

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Speaker 2: she says, and I'm like, Mum, She says, well, do

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Speaker 2: you just he just doesn't look right. So I kind

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Speaker 2: of like did the big turn around to see what

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Speaker 2: she was talking. I said, don't look now, that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. And so I'm like, well, Mom, don't worry

256
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Speaker 2: about it. Just leave him to his breakfast, no big

257
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Speaker 2: deal anyway. But she kept rabbiting on about this chap

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Speaker 2: that she just didn't feel was in the right place,

259
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Speaker 2: and she's commenting about him, you know, on and off

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Speaker 2: through our breakfast. In the end, I'm like, Mom, just relaxed,

261
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Speaker 2: don't worry about that man anyway. You know. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of since then has reminded me, of course, that one

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Speaker 2: should always listen to what one's mother says.

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Speaker 1: What would they know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exact.

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Speaker 1: But isn't an interesting instinct than something just didn't feel right?

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Speaker 1: And I think it can come down to it almost

268
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Speaker 1: like an energy, someone putting out the wrong energy. But

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that your mum picked up on.

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Speaker 2: That though, well she certainly did. It was her intuition,

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Speaker 2: you know, And how often do we dismiss our intuition.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course I wouldn't have prompted us to

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Speaker 2: get up and run out of the cafe or anything,

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Speaker 2: but just that she was aware, and just that I

275
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Speaker 2: was dismissive. But yeah, so he was obviously at that

276
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Speaker 2: very the early stage talking to Tory Johnson, as I

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Speaker 2: understand now, got him to make a phone call to

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Speaker 2: Triple O that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how it played out, as I understand, was that

280
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Speaker 1: man Momus sat down at a table on his own,

281
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Speaker 1: spoke to one of the staff and said, who's your manager?

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Speaker 1: And the manager Tory came out and sat down and

283
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Speaker 1: was having the conversation with him, and that's when men

284
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Speaker 1: and Momus told him this is what's happening. When did

285
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Speaker 1: you realize something terrible was about to take place.

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Speaker 2: I was sitting there and we had made that decision

287
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Speaker 2: not to go upstairs, that we'd have another coffee, you know,

288
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Speaker 2: another sliding door moment.

289
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Speaker 3: But we dan that extra coffee, I know, right.

290
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Speaker 2: But then there was this little buzz around the cafe

291
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Speaker 2: that went, oh, the doors are locked, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's ridiculous. You know. Well, I'm just I'll call the

293
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Speaker 2: building manager and they'll sort it out, no big deal.

294
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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, I'll just go and pay for

295
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Speaker 2: our coffee. So I got up and went to pay

296
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Speaker 2: for my breakfast, and once again, the way the counter was,

297
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Speaker 2: I was facing out, looking out onto the corner of

298
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Speaker 2: Phillips Street and George Street, a mutain place, rather through

299
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Speaker 2: the door. And yeah, the little girl who was serving

300
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Speaker 2: me was just She's had a mouth open and I

301
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 2: couldn't see what she could see. And I'm thinking, what's

302
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Speaker 2: wrong with this kid?

303
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Speaker 1: You know?

304
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Speaker 2: But of course she could see him standing up and

305
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Speaker 2: making his speech, And so we did the exchange with

306
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Speaker 2: the money. I turned around to go back to my

307
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Speaker 2: seat and there he was. And it was only then

308
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,360
Speaker 2: that I realized that something was a mess. And as

309
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,840
Speaker 2: I said, to you earlier. You know, it wasn't until

310
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Speaker 2: he pulled out his gun that I actually thought it

311
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Speaker 2: was real.

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Speaker 1: He's standing up. Was he talking or shouting? Was what

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Speaker 1: was being said?

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Speaker 3: No, he was.

315
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Speaker 2: Talking very deliberately, speaking very deliberately and not shouting, certainly

316
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Speaker 2: not quiet, but just in a normal voice, telling us

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Speaker 2: that we were hostages and that he was wanting to

318
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Speaker 2: speak to the Prime Minister on national radio and that

319
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Speaker 2: Australia was under attack. And at the same time, he

320
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Speaker 2: was putting on his bandanna that he had around his head,

321
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Speaker 2: and then he pulled out his gun. And then it

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Speaker 2: was like, that's real. The gun was real.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I think in the conversation he had with Tori,

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Speaker 1: he got the staff to lock the doors, and then

325
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Speaker 1: you've paid for your coffee, and then he's standing up,

326
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Speaker 1: and then he put the bandanna on and pulled out

327
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Speaker 1: the gun. I got what was going through your mind?

328
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Speaker 2: Well, in the moment, once I realized that it just

329
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Speaker 2: wasn't some sort of candid camera joke, really, I just went,

330
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Speaker 2: we're dead, because that's what terrorists do. They don't mess around,

331
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Speaker 2: you know, And I thought we're all going to die.

332
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Speaker 2: Quite literally, that was my thought, and it was that

333
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Speaker 2: kind of moment of Okay, this is it, this is

334
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Speaker 2: my dying day, you know. Really that's how I was thinking.

335
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's understandable because if you've caught up in

336
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Speaker 1: the bank robbery, the objective there is not to kill

337
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 1: hostages or get attention. But when you're caught up in

338
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Speaker 1: the situation that's been declared a terrorist, it's a reasonable

339
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Speaker 1: assumption to think this is not going to end in nicely.

340
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Speaker 2: No, that's right, definitely, you know. And then of course

341
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,879
Speaker 2: he started to place everybody around the room and pulled

342
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Speaker 2: the women in close to him and the men out

343
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Speaker 2: on the outer ring, and putting people up at the

344
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Speaker 2: windows with his sign and things like that. He's been

345
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Speaker 2: a little flag that he had, and so there was

346
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 2: all of that going on as well, And of course

347
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 2: in the room where all strangers, all of us who

348
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,640
Speaker 2: are customers, and of course the staff knew each other,

349
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,200
Speaker 2: but we didn't know each other, so we're just randomly

350
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Speaker 2: there and yeah, it was like, well, what's next, and

351
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 2: so he's giving instruction all that kind of thing.

352
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,439
Speaker 1: So let me just talk through that, because getting the

353
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 1: feel of what you went through there, he's declared it's

354
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 1: a terrorist act. He's got the women around him as

355
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 1: you would see, like it literally a human shield, putting

356
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 1: the men around the outer perimeter in a circle, getting

357
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: the flag and the signs up against the window. Concern

358
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: for yourself, you're there with your mother, What you had

359
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 1: concerns for your mother?

360
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 3: Because oh yeah, you.

361
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 2: Know, definitely, because well two things. Of course, one is

362
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,639
Speaker 2: concerned for one's mother and everybody else. But for me

363
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 2: in particular, my concern about my mother was that I

364
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 2: knew that she would not be taking this kind of crap.

365
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, say that exactly, you know, like, because you

366
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 2: know I knew her and she would not have liked

367
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Speaker 2: his behavior.

368
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 1: Don't be ridiculous, young man.

369
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, it was a situation like that. But you know,

370
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 2: so my concern was just trying to keep her quiet

371
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 2: and still and just you know, breathe mum. But of

372
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: course he once he realized that we were related, he

373
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 2: separated us. So for example, the way he positioned us,

374
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Speaker 2: I could not see her. Mum was actually seated behind

375
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Speaker 2: me on the bench and I was seated and he

376
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: faced me towards him. And yeah, so.

377
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 1: Did you get a chance to speak to your mom,

378
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 1: like to communicate with your mum right at the.

379
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 2: Start, just a little bit, but not much, you know,

380
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 2: mainly through you know, just what was saying with her eyes.

381
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: But funnily enough, he was on it, like he was

382
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 2: on all of us about keeping our eyes closed and

383
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: not like giving each other signals or anything like that,

384
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 2: and definitely sort of being aware of people can talk

385
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 2: apart from words and so yes, so there was very

386
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: little opportunity for that. And only at one point he

387
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: actually instructed me to speak to my mother, So that

388
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: was peculiar in itself, but that really was my concern

389
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 2: with mum, just trying to keep her calm.

390
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: I could well, when I say, I could imagine, and

391
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 1: I'll probably trip up on that throughout this I can't imagine.

392
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 1: It's just it's a surreal situation that ninety nine point

393
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of people never find themselves in. You're

394
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 1: sitting there, You got this person. How is his behavior?

395
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: Is it Arabic or is it controlled or no?

396
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: He's calm, very deliberate in fact, and in lots of ways.

397
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 2: It was like he had thought through a lot of things,

398
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: but there are other things that he hadn't thought about.

399
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 2: But then of course, really the man had originally planned

400
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: to go to Channel seven, and because he couldn't get

401
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: in because of the security, the you know, the link

402
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: was his second kind of choice, if you like, and

403
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 2: so things that he just didn't kind of know, like

404
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: the lay out of the cafe and stuff like that.

405
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: So some things he was very deliberate about, and other

406
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 2: things not peculiar.

407
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: So you're sitting there, you got your eyes closed, is

408
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: he talking or you just left there in the moment

409
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: wondering what the hell's going to happen.

410
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: Well, the eyes closed was eyes closed, eyes open routine

411
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: that went on regularly.

412
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 1: What he would tell you the close your close eyes

413
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: and then.

414
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: You grab your eyes. It was so strange, but anyway,

415
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: so that's what we were doing. And of course it

416
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: quickly become obvious that what he really wanted was media attention.

417
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: Right at the beginning, he told me to ring triple Oh.

418
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 2: So I assumed in that moment that I was the

419
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: first person ringing TRIPLO. Didn't know about Tori's call, of course,

420
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: so I was ringing triple O, which I did, And

421
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: then then he was happy with the way I had

422
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,959
Speaker 2: made the call. And then he wanted. He said something

423
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: peculiar in that. He said, that was good, you can

424
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: be my secretary. I seriously, what a promotion. But anyway,

425
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: that's the day.

426
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 1: Right, just the fact that you can smile. I'm sorry,

427
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because it's not a laughing but you have

428
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: you got that, that's true. You know, you got to

429
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: be ridiculous.

430
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: Because if you don't, you know, you can go into

431
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: the whole of the tragedy and into the fear and

432
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: all that kind of thing. And so anyway, that that moment,

433
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: and then he told me to get to find ABC

434
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: Radio on the phone.

435
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: Is this your own phone? Your phone from.

436
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: Actually it was mums because that day I had forgotten

437
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 2: my phone, which was a bit silly, but anyway, you know,

438
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: I forgot my phone. So Mum has an Android and

439
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: I have an Apple and blah blah, and I've got

440
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: no idea how to work her phone. So anyway, I'm

441
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: trying to find the right you know, ABC Radio, and

442
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 2: I think I found the ABC book Club, which he

443
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: was not interested in at all. He wanted ABC, you know,

444
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: the news station. So very fortunately this is what happened.

445
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: Young Jared Morton Hoffman, who was a young boy who

446
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: actually our waiter, our server that day. He quickly stepped

447
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: in and said I'll do it, and with that I

448
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 2: passed the phone to Jared, and Jared really stepped up

449
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: from their amazing young man. He was only nineteen at

450
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: the time, and you know, just incredible.

451
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: Took the initiative and took the pressure off fathers.

452
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: That's right.

453
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's impressive how people reacting situations. And this is

454
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: a kid that you and your mum were saying, Look,

455
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be here, and that's right. He

456
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: steps up like that. When you phone Triple O, what

457
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: did you say?

458
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: I remember that I had to be very very clear

459
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 2: because this was not a call the Triple O would

460
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 2: be used to. So you know, I said to the woman,

461
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: are you listening? You know right, this is what's happening.

462
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: And I said, my mother and I this is just

463
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: from memory, Yeah, my mother and I are in the

464
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: Lint Cafe the corner of Phillips Street and Martin Place

465
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: in Sydney, CBD. And I knew I had to say

466
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: that because in that very be very precise about that

467
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: because Triple O are everywhere. They're not just you know,

468
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: they're not Sydney there, they could have been anywhere and

469
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: they would not have actually known what the location I

470
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: was speaking about. So I was trying to be very

471
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 2: particular about it. And you know the man because what

472
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 2: else do you refer to him as the man? The

473
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: man has a gun, And then of course Triple O

474
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: go into the panic like how many are you? And

475
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: you know where are you and how many are just

476
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: like so at the same time he's telling me what

477
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: to say. So I was kind of like in that

478
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: situation of trying to pacify him with saying what he

479
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: wanted said and trying at the same time to answer

480
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: the Triple O questions, which I've got to say was

481
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: really challenging. But anyway, that was that and the end.

482
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: Of that master of the understatement challenging. I can't yeah,

483
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: I can see that challenging because I can imagine the

484
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: Triple O would be firing questions that you did he

485
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: say what the purpose of the terrorist act was?

486
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, he never referred to it as

487
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: a terrorist act. And as an aside, one of the

488
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: other girls referred to him as that, you know, a terrorist,

489
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: and he said he got a little bit indignosed. Do

490
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: you think I'm a terrorist, and she said, what else

491
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: can I call you? And at that point he said,

492
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: you can call me brother.

493
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: Brother isis okay?

494
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: So link into isis.

495
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So we then started to call him brother.

496
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: So prior to that, I'd been referring to him as sir,

497
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: because you know, like men like that like to be

498
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: deferred to, and so, but once he said, you know,

499
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: call me brother, which was the most ironic joke in

500
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: some ways. But you know, there we were.

501
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: Well, if you had a gun, I'd call him whatever

502
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: wanted me to call.

503
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 3: Him first, exactly.

504
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, So how long how long have you

505
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: been there before you're making contact with Triple A?

506
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: From my memory, which is about the time I think

507
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: probably we're in that situation, about half an hour, but

508
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: of course Tripoo had already been called because Tori had

509
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: made that call, but so probably would have been about

510
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: half an hour.

511
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: And he had you all hand your phones in that

512
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: he did.

513
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of the first things he did was

514
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: get everyone handing in their phones and their ID. So

515
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: that's what happened. We all pulled out our ID and

516
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: put it on the table and our phones and they

517
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: were just left there, and of course we're all spread

518
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: across the cafe, but then we were pulled in and

519
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: so for most of us, our phones were left on

520
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: various tables that we had been sitting at. So throughout

521
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: the day, of course, as people's friends and family become

522
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: aware that it must be them in the cafe, then yeah,

523
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: the phones were ringing.

524
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: Was he always had the firearm and always making a

525
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: point of the fact that he's got control of this

526
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: situation because he's got the firearm.

527
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: That's right, absolutely, And of course he had told us

528
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: that he had a bomb in his backpack, and then

529
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: he said, I've got two bombs in my backpack. And

530
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: at that point I remember thinking, maybe got two bombs.

531
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you haven't.

532
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: Got a bomb, But you know what, do I know?

533
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue with a man like that.

534
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: And so just when okay, he's got a bomb. So

535
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 2: he has a bomb in his backpack, and he's got

536
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: the gun.

537
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: And the fact that he's made reference to a bomb,

538
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: whether you can surmise, well, maybe it's not a bomb.

539
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 3: You just don't know, that's right. That's why I hope

540
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: that a bobom.

541
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: Look, yeah, again, we're fed by a lot that we've

542
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: seen in in the media and in fiction as well, that, yeah,

543
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: the bomb goes off in the backpack when they push

544
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: wash the button, that that type of thing. So that

545
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: would have added to the whole scenario.

546
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely. You know, it's just that layer upon

547
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: layer of pressure, and you know, it's the days winding

548
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: on and you're sort of realizing that he's not going

549
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: to kill anyone in a hurry, but he's that's a

550
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: threat that's always there, you know, like certainly when the

551
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: first hostages escaped, but you know that is always there.

552
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: Did you think, and I'm trying to get a sense,

553
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 1: because only only you know, were you hoping that at

554
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: some point in time police were going to come crashing

555
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: through the door from the early stages, did you absolutely?

556
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: You know, from from the get go, absolutely I believed

557
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: that the police would rescue us, because you know, that's

558
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: what police do, right they rescue us. And just I

559
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: just assumed that they were coming eventually, as he obviously

560
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: was thinking that, you know, that the police were coming,

561
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: and you know, it was a surprise to discover that

562
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: that wasn't the plan. But so all through the day

563
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: there was a certain undercurrent amongst us. That we weren't

564
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: speaking to each other, and we're all random strangers, as

565
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: I've said, but you know, you could tell there was

566
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: a vibe around us, and that was simply to keep

567
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: him entertained and busy and give him what he wanted

568
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: as far as we possibly could, to keep him focused

569
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: on other things, which was trying to get media attention

570
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: while we all waited for the police to come. Now,

571
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: I've never spoken to my fellow hostages about this, but

572
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: I assume that they all thought the same.

573
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: I suppose in a group situation like that, without the communication,

574
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: the body language and the whole tone of the thing,

575
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: you would have been, Okay, let's just keep him happy

576
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: because sooner or later the police are going will arrive

577
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: and that this will be over.

578
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: And we could see them, of course, you know, as

579
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: the day went on, we could see the tou guys outside.

580
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: Obviously they weren't directly in front of the doors or

581
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: anything like that, but we could see their reflection in

582
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: the marble from the reserve bank. You know, I don't

583
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: know this is going to sound the strangest weird thing,

584
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: but you could feel them, and I don't know how

585
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: we did through all that brick and marble and everything,

586
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: but you could feel yeah, mystery.

587
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I think in a situation like that you

588
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: senses are heightened, every sense, and so yeah, I don't

589
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: think it's unusual to experience things that you can't really

590
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: explain in that situation. The efforts to contact the Prime

591
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: Minister and that, and when you said the young staff

592
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: members stepped up and said he'd negotiap how was that going?

593
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: What was Mamas doing when all this was going on.

594
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 1: Was he constantly talking to you and keeping control or

595
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: was he silent?

596
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: No, he's constantly talking and definitely keeping control. And he

597
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: was as like, the younger one stepped up because I'm

598
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: more fluid with social media and then all that kind

599
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: of stuff, and then he told us to put it

600
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: on our social media, and which of course would have

601
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: just been terrifying for people's family and friends. So of

602
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: course Mom and I. I didn't have my phone, so

603
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: I didn't do any of that. Mom of course didn't

604
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: have that kind of thing. So anyway, everyone was busy

605
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: with that, doing social media and also trying to get

606
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: press attention.

607
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: So so when you say everyone was busy on social media,

608
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: so you had your phones there and he was encouraging peace.

609
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, he did certain yeah, certain people, not everyone

610
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: all at the same time or anything like that. But

611
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: he was saying, I put it on social media. Then

612
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 2: how do we get it up onto YouTube? Well, you know,

613
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: Jared morten Hoffman and some of the others knew just

614
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: how to do that. And then of course he had

615
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: us make this video telling people what was going on,

616
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: what he wanted, and of course that particular video I

617
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: participated in that. And the thing was he said, say

618
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: what you like, but say this so you know, sure,

619
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: so of course, so of course wanting to plicate him

620
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: and by precating him, keeping him passive or as passive

621
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: as a man with a gun could be, hoping that,

622
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: you know, just give us that bit more time till

623
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: the police come. So yes, it was like that. The

624
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: whole day was about trying to get media attention and

625
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: that was exhausting. But we're all participating in that in

626
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 2: one way or another. Not so much my mother and

627
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: I but you know, watching, you know, what the other

628
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: kids were doing, etc.

629
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: But I fully understand placating the person in there. And

630
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: you've probably heard the terminology Stockholm syndrome with I think

631
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: it was from a nineteen seventy four hostage situation where

632
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: people are doing things to appease a person that's got control.

633
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: So I understand that delivering the messages like again, this

634
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: is and I'm tapping into because most people don't have

635
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: this life experience being caught up in something like this,

636
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: but we've seen it on TV and you see these

637
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: horrible situations where hostages are staring at the camera going,

638
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: please the person who's been good to us, blah blah

639
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: blah whatever demands. What was that like?

640
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: It was peculiar to have to do that, So I

641
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: remember that when I did mine, I just i'd lived it.

642
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: Of course, whilst he's in the side telling me what

643
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: to say and trying to say it quickly, you know,

644
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: to get the whole thing over and done with. But

645
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: you know, he the interesting thing, as you pointed out earlier,

646
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: the whole Stockholm syndrome situation, I can say with confidence

647
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: in my own heart that we were not in that

648
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,479
Speaker 2: Stockholm situation, particularly because nobody had given over to him

649
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: or yielded to him. Everyone was participating to hold out

650
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 2: long enough for the police to come. So we hadn't

651
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: gone over to his side, we're just doing whatever it takes.

652
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: Hadn't been broken, No, that's.

653
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 2: Right, and there was certainly no love for the man,

654
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: but just whatever he wanted for now.

655
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: Did you looking at the people in there and at

656
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: the time you walking with the aid of a walking stick,

657
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: that's correct, other people in there? Did you think there

658
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: was opportunities for other people to take action? Do you

659
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: think that was going through people's minds? Like, we've eighteen

660
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: of you in there and one person with a gun.

661
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: He can't keep an eye on everyone, ending on where

662
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: he's got you corral or position. Were you concern someone

663
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: was going to try something to resolve the situation? Not concerned?

664
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: Did you think that was a possibility?

665
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: Well, of course I did think that that could be

666
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: a possibility. I didn't know how that could be, but

667
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, really, I now know that some of the

668
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 2: younger guys had taken Nyes from the kitchen when they

669
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: were pulled out of the kitchen right at the beginning,

670
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: and seriously, I cannot think of how they could have

671
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: attacked him without first of all, you know, this bomb

672
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: going off or the gun going off, or you know,

673
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: them being killed or somebody else, So you know, just

674
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: as an assign I'll tell you this little story. So

675
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: at one point my mother, who was you know, blood

676
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: was boiling. She stands up and she hands on her

677
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: hips and she says, I want to go to the

678
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 2: bathroom and my daughter needs some medication. Oh mum. Anyway,

679
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: so he says, you go the toilet. And he used

680
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: to send us with one or two lint workers, or

681
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: each of us went with the lint workers. It was

682
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: either Jared or young Fiona. Ma anyway, so mum, she'd

683
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: done that, and off she goes. And she goes down

684
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 2: to the bathroom with Fiona and Jared. For whatever reason,

685
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: he sent the two of them. So she's down in

686
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: the toilet and so Jared then tells me this story

687
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: when I was in hospital actually, and he says, your mother.

688
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, yeah, my mother. So we took her

689
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: down to the toilet and she says, right, you fellas.

690
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: I can just hear us saying it, right, you fellas.

691
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: This is what we're going to do. We're going to

692
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: go up upstairs because the toilets were down three stairs,

693
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: up three stairs, go up the stairs, and I'm going

694
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: to go and Spitney's face and all of you fellas

695
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: are going to run out. And when Jared told me that,

696
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: I just kind of I'm in my hospital bed there

697
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: and he's visiting, and I'm like, oh, that cold sort

698
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: of shiver go over me because I thought that was

699
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: exactly what I was afraid of. And he says, and

700
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: we're laughing, you know, at the same time, Jared and

701
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: I the insanity of it. And she says, this is

702
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: one of this is it? Like, you know, I've made

703
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: up my mind. And he says, but Robin, he could

704
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: kill you, and she goes, That's okay. I've had a

705
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: good life. I'm not worried. You know, he kills me,

706
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. You fellas get out. You're only young, blah

707
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: blah blah. And then he says to her, but he

708
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: could kill somebody else, and she had no answer for that,

709
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: of course, so that put her back in a box.

710
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: But I just sort of think about, you know, the

711
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: wisdom and the quick wittedness of that young man to

712
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: come up against my mother, who I absolutely have no

713
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: doubt would have walked up and spat in his face. Yeah, yeah,

714
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: you know, and just I think, my goodness, charity, you know, it.

715
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: Says a lot wisdom the years, and we look at

716
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: kids or nineteen year old or whatever agey was and thinking, well,

717
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: you don't really know what life is about, but they

718
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: step up in situations like that, and it's an extreme situation,

719
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: like I could imagine that people just panicking. I'm surprised

720
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: people didn't just break down and cry uncontrollably?

721
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah they did, did they?

722
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: And that looking at all the other hostages just and

723
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: matter for yourself whether you identify the hostages, but just

724
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: the type of different reactions that people had in that situation, because,

725
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, collectively, you've all been brought there together.

726
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 1: You don't know each other outside the staff members, and

727
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: you've put in this extraordinary situation. So did you see

728
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: things that inspired you with the other hostages. You've just

729
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: talked about what Jared did and other things that surprised

730
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: you how people react.

731
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I think that it

732
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: would have been appropriate and understandable if absolutely everybody was

733
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: on the floor crying their eyes out. You know, it

734
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: was terrifying, quite frankly, and you know that nobody vomited

735
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 2: with the fear is still a surprise to me. You know,

736
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: like some of the younger girls were quite like that

737
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: and totally understandable. But of course those younger girls were

738
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: on the floor praying illness, not coping, but that they

739
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: managed to find a way to sneak out of the cafe.

740
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: Brilliant luck. And so you know, it's just you don't know,

741
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: people have their own way of surviving.

742
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: How far into the seat When the first three Mammy

743
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: two escape.

744
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it was probably mid afternoon.

745
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're looking at four or five hours. Yeah, situation.

746
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: Those guys, I I am so glad they escaped. So

747
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: glad because I think that and I do not know

748
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: the mind of a terrorist, right, but I think that

749
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: Monas and the way he was treating some of the men,

750
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 2: he was dehumanizing them, and he was referring to them

751
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: as white shirt. For example, he referred to Deartry as manager,

752
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, whereas the women he tended to use our names.

753
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: He referred to my mother as Luisa's mother. But you know,

754
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: like then she was irritating him, you know. So so

755
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: the first lot of when the first lot of hostages escaped,

756
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: obviously the terrorist and us we thought that the police

757
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: were coming. We just assumed that that was what was

758
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: happening in the moment, so where there was a big

759
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: noise and then three of them ran out, and then

760
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: we're all on our feet like, ah, you know, it's

761
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: kind of screaming, et cetera. And of course he grabbed

762
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: me because I just happened to be the first person

763
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: in his eye of sight, so he grabbed me. He's

764
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: got me by the back of my dress, and he's

765
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: got the gun, and I'm thinking, great, the police are

766
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: going to come. They're going to try and shoot him,

767
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 2: and they'll shoot me and I'm definitely going to die,

768
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: you know, so like that, and of course what had

769
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: happened was that they had all escaped, and it was

770
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: only that once again Jared morten Hoffman was quick enough

771
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 2: to think to shout at him, the police aren't coming.

772
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: They've escaped. They've escaped. So it was only in that

773
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: moment that it suddenly took down the temperature, you know,

774
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 2: in the room, because and it was later he actually

775
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 2: said to the group, he said, you will should thank

776
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: Jared that he was quick enough to tell me that

777
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: the police weren't coming, that they had escaped, because oh,

778
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: I killed that woman. That woman be me of course.

779
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that puts you. You're smiling got I said

780
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: you're a nice lady at the start of the podcast,

781
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: and I do understand it, and we'll explain it and

782
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: explain it again because I think people that have seen

783
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: horrific situations, been in horrific situations, and police experience that

784
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: quite often people don't understand how you laugh. But it

785
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: is a coping mechanism, isn't it. You've got to otherwise

786
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: you get dragged into this dark hole that's very hard,

787
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: too hard to get out. But I'm going to take

788
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: you in that hole right now. That must have been

789
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: like the chaos of because they ran out the door,

790
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: they saw an opportunity, ran out the door. You're all

791
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: on your feet. He's panicking, a heightened state of alert,

792
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: and he's grabbed you, and you've got a gun in

793
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: his hand. At the best scenario, the police are coming

794
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: in the door and they're going to try and take

795
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: him out, but you're virtually he's human shield or he's

796
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: going to react violently and shoot you. As he said,

797
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: he was considering what was going through your mind at

798
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: that point in time. Is that a point in time

799
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: when you think this is it?

800
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

801
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, not wanting to be glib about this,

802
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: but I have an easy relationship with death and that

803
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: has to do with my faith. And so you know,

804
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: once I kind of realized right from the beginning really

805
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: that this could be it, I started to understand something

806
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: about myself. So this is a little side story, but

807
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: you know, and that was that we all understand the

808
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: concept of body, mind and spirit. You know, we talk

809
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: about it, and you know, there's a lot of money

810
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: made out of it, all that kind of thing. But

811
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: during the siege, I actually experienced it in real time

812
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: within myself. In that and it wasn't just an idea

813
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: or a concept or a philosophy. It was I could

814
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: feel it physically within myself. So in my head, my

815
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: logical head, I could not see a way forward. I

816
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: really thought that we and I would die. In my heart,

817
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: I was.

818
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 3: Oh, my God, what's going to happen?

819
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: Ah?

820
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: Panic, But in my gut, in the depth of my

821
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 2: very being, I had an overwhelmed sense of calm. And

822
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, people who are familiar would understand, you know,

823
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: the peace of God that surpasses all understanding, keeps you

824
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: anchored in that suredness that whether I lived or I

825
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: died that day. Ultimately for me, it didn't matter.

826
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: I go on.

827
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: So you know, that was core to my being and

828
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: my thinking. So but experiencing it in real time and

829
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, gosh, I've only just come to understand this,

830
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: and I'm going to die, you know, like and so

831
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 2: you know that, so that gave me a certain amount

832
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 2: of psycho emotional freedom. So yeah, in that moment.

833
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: This is it.

834
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it was. Like, I definitely thought I

835
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: was going to die.

836
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: Then, well, like, full credit to you to be able

837
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: to process all that, come to terms with it, and

838
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: it must be comforting to have that feeling and be

839
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: able to find your peace at that moment.

840
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it lets you. It enables you to see.

841
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: Clearly, Okay, they've run out, police haven't come in, you

842
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: haven't been shot. What's attention in the room?

843
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: Like after that, well, you know, we had a moment

844
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: of being like, oh my god, and then everyone sits down,

845
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 2: calms down. So we go back to trying to get

846
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: him media attention, and you know, the days progressing and

847
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: we're not getting very far without media attention, and of

848
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: course there's listening on phones and things like that. He

849
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: didn't have a phone that day, or if he did,

850
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: it was in his backpack, et cetera. But so he's

851
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: getting other people to use their phones, and at one

852
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 2: point we had to recharge phones because everyone's phone's running out.

853
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: So anyway, there was all of that kind of thing. Yeah,

854
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: so that's where we are. We are waiting, waiting.

855
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: Right, just sitting there waiting. I've experienced in policing times

856
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: where the adrenaline hits you a life threatening situation and

857
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: then the calm down and all that, people react differently.

858
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: And you said that it's amazing people weren't throwing up

859
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: and that, because I've seen people where the adrenaline's just

860
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: taken through the roof and then it's come down. Were

861
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 1: you guys experiencing that or where were You've explained where

862
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: you were getting you come from? What about the other people?

863
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,479
Speaker 1: Were you relying on the other people in the same

864
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: situation where you're drawing strength from others?

865
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: I'd say, you know, definitely. So you know, just watching

866
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: everybody else and you know some very smart people in

867
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: that room actually, you know, and the collective sense of

868
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: calm and control and waiting, I'd say that that was

869
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: strong the strongest vibe in the room.

870
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: Really my assessment of the situation. If you lot were

871
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: creating you lot being the hostages creating chaos, he potentially

872
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: could have reacted very irrationally that it could have been

873
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: a lot worse.

874
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, definitely. I mean, you know, for example,

875
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 2: like I said earlier, he didn't like my mother's tone.

876
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: And at one stage he told me, he said, Louisa,

877
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: keep your mother quiet. And I'm thinking, you're not serious,

878
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: are you keep my mother quiet?

879
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: I've been trying to do that for years.

880
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 3: It's impossible.

881
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I had that little moment. It's the

882
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: only time I actually spoke to her, and I turned

883
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: to her and I said, Mum, you're an old lady.

884
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: You have to be quiet and just not say anything.

885
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: And you know, the whole time, I'm getting the daggers

886
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: from her saying like, you know, wait till we get home.

887
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 2: You can't talk to me like that. So anyway, but yes,

888
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: so he was. He was definitely controlling.

889
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: And you said his attitude towards the men were a

890
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: little bit different. Was that he was struggling for his

891
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: insecurities with power or what was that about it?

892
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: Well, I guess he saw them as the most threatening,

893
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: you know, they could physically overpower him. He softened, you know,

894
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: like for example, when the younger ones were helping him

895
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: with the media and social media and the technology and

896
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff with the phones, he softened

897
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: and a little bit around them, the younger guys, and

898
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 2: started to refer to them by name. But certainly he

899
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: had that keeping the men away. Unfortunately, those three men

900
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: escaped initially, so that was really good.

901
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: Did you, like, you've been in there now six eight hours.

902
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: Were you trying to process the type of person. Were

903
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: you trying to get a sense of who he was, like,

904
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: what triggers him, what doesn't trigger him? What was the

905
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: sense of where did you think he was coming from?

906
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: Did you think mental healthful? Did you think terrorists in

907
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: the truest sense with his ideology? What was it?

908
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: This is always the question, isn't it. You know, there's

909
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: just so much reflection around this, you know, was it

910
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: really a terrorist event? And I'm thinking, yeah, it really

911
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 2: was a terrorist event. But I only thought that after

912
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: I went to the inquest. In the moment, I thought

913
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: the few things about him was that he was very articulate,

914
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: He had an accent of course, so he was making

915
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 2: a really big effort to be clear in his instruction actions.

916
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 2: So there was that, So that's why it was articulate,

917
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: and that he made such a point of being very

918
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 2: careful about that, so he's aware of that in himself.

919
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 2: He was well. Actually, my mother she noticed that he

920
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: was very clean and neat and tidy, which I love you.

921
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: I love your mom.

922
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: You've got to love take.

923
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: She was even noticing that he had that. You remember

924
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: how we used to do it in the in the eighties,

925
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: which so the iron the seam into our genes, and

926
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 2: she said, she commented that he had that, so someone

927
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 2: had owned those trousers for him, you know, love is

928
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 2: I'm thinking somebody did anyway.

929
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: So sorry we laugh at it, but the wisdom of

930
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: that that is quite telling, Like I wouldn't have been

931
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: thinking about that, So someone's taken the trouble to because

932
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: that does tell you a little bit a person. And yeah,

933
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: the fact that your mum that we're seeing here laughing,

934
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: but she was the one that something doesn't look right

935
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: about that, so maybe we should listen to our elders.

936
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well see she noticed the detail. She noticed she

937
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: knew how many people were in the cafe.

938
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: I never counted, but.

939
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: She knew, and she got an internal she had an

940
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: internal clock. She knew what time it was, even if

941
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: she couldn't see her at the time, so she could

942
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: tell you what time it was when blah blah happened.

943
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: But yes, that's right, that's the thing about her. But anyway,

944
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: on the day, I was just trying to keep it quiet.

945
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: But yes, okay, So the next significant event that occurred

946
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 1: in the siege was the further hostages escaped. Now tell

947
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: us about that, because that was the two girls.

948
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 2: That's right.

949
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: They were hiding or out of sight from him under

950
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: a table. But I think can clarify if I'm wrong.

951
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: I think after the first group of hostages escaped, the

952
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: three that got out first, he said, if anyone else escapes,

953
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: people are going to be killed.

954
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He made it very

955
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: clear that if anyone else tried to escape that he

956
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: would kill someone in retribution. Okay, then we all knew that.

957
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: So these two young girls, they were lint workers. You know,

958
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: it was a very coincidence. But you know, all the

959
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: young lint workers were young women. To teach young women.

960
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 2: They had the Linch uniform on, which is black with

961
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: a long apron, and they all had long, dark hair.

962
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 2: So it just happened to be the way it was

963
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: on the day, right, And so who they were, they

964
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: kind of you know, were together. But he told us

965
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 2: that that, you know, someone was going to get killed.

966
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: So then we're all sitting there, busy getting it. You're

967
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: trying to get him this media attention, and then all

968
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: of a sudden, like that, something happened. What happened? Now,

969
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 2: I actually didn't see them escape, but I could tell

970
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: the vibe something happened as a feeling in there. Something

971
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: had happened. But what was that something? So anyway, we're

972
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 2: all standing there or the others are going, I don't

973
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: know what do you mean something? What he said and

974
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: he was going cops, you know, was at cops around.

975
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: We can't see the cops, you know, blah blah blah.

976
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: So everyone's trying to divert his attention. I didn't even

977
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: realize I'd escaped, because you know, Lind had this giant

978
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 2: Christmas Teddy Bear cardboard cutout and they had managed to

979
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: somehow crawl. I had been on the floor I'm sick,

980
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm dying, I'm terrified, And they managed to crawl around

981
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: behind the Teddy Bear and then sneak out the side door,

982
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: which I quite in a retrospect, I think, my goodness,

983
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: you girls, how did you do that? But they managed it,

984
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: which was really great. So there was two less hostages

985
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: after the three and then those two. So the thing is,

986
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: of course, what that created within the media. The media

987
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: were rightly reporting all day that three people had escaped.

988
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 2: The two people, so they're referring to five people had escaped,

989
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: And so what happened every hour on the hour on

990
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: the hour when that was being reported from outside coming

991
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 2: and we're listening on the phones, we'd have to say

992
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: to him, Oh, that's so wrong, that's not true. You

993
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 2: know what. The media they're lying, that's not what happened.

994
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: There's only three escaped, So we had to try and

995
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 2: dumb down the fact that two extra had escaped.

996
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: Okay, so I understand that there that the two that

997
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: when they escaped, he didn't realize to escape. There was

998
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 1: something change of the atmosphere or all the tension in

999
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: the room. And then the media are reporting three have escaped.

1000
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: Now five escaped. And you had the sense of mind

1001
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: to convince him that that's just the media stuff.

1002
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 2: Fortunately for us, the media we're reporting the five, not

1003
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: oh three escaped and then two escaped. They didn't report

1004
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 2: it like that that we heard, and so we were

1005
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: able to convince him that you can't trust the media.

1006
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: They're lying, they're making that up, you know, feed into

1007
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: that conspiracy theory thing. It's going on in his head.

1008
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 2: But he absolutely it was really touch and go because

1009
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: if he had not, if he had done as my

1010
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: mother had done and counted how many people there were

1011
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: in there, but he hadn't, so he didn't realize that

1012
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: those two girls had gone.

1013
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: Out, and if he saw those two girls get out, yeah,

1014
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 1: it's hypothetical now he didn't, but I think you guys

1015
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: would have been at risk or someone would.

1016
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 2: Definitely, because he would have had to have killed one

1017
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: of us, because that's what he'd said he'd done, so

1018
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: you know exactly he would have had to follow through.

1019
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: What was your feeling there, and it's a very complex situation.

1020
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 1: What was your feeling there when the girls did escape,

1021
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: given the threat that he made, did you were you angry?

1022
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: Happy?

1023
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: Can you talk about it?

1024
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: What right I have to.

1025
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't see them get out. Everyone

1026
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: was in a slightly different position, and that's something I

1027
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 2: did not see. And so it took me a little

1028
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 2: while to actually think, hang on a minute, she's not here, so,

1029
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 2: you know. But so it took me a little while

1030
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: to work out the literally something that had gone those

1031
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 2: girls so and in the moment, I was like, God,

1032
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: how brave are they, you know, to do that, and

1033
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: grateful that they'd gotten out, but also at the same time,

1034
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: I was well aware that if he clicked, if he

1035
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 2: suddenly had a moment where he went hang on a minute,

1036
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: then we would have been in trouble.

1037
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: Okay, it's just a horrible, horrible situation, is and all

1038
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,439
Speaker 1: those mixed emotions. How long have you been there? When

1039
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: the two girls escape, Roughly.

1040
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: I think it's late afternoon by then, I think, yeah.

1041
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: How are you coping physically and mentally at that point

1042
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: in time, because that's that's the hearts, the stresses right

1043
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: up there.

1044
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: Definitely, you know, all those kind of moments, and it

1045
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: was it was definitely like that. It wasn't static, It

1046
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: wasn't it was constantly moving and constantly going up and down,

1047
00:55:52,840 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: and so you know, the for me physically, fortunately, thank goodness,

1048
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: have toilet breaks and different stages. He gave us water,

1049
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 2: he was not drinking, and very late in the evening

1050
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: he told the cafe workers to go and get like

1051
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: tea and some food for people. But you know at

1052
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: the point where my mother had stood up and said,

1053
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: I want to go to the bathroom and my daughter

1054
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 2: needs her medication. See, this is the thing about this man,

1055
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: you see, and that is that when my mother said that,

1056
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 2: he first thing he did was call me over to

1057
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: sit right next to him. Which I was like, oh no,

1058
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: if the cops come right now, I'm right next to him.

1059
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 2: So anyways, sit right next to him, and he says,

1060
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 2: why do you need medication? So then I explained to

1061
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 2: him about MS, and he wanted to know everything about

1062
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 2: MS and how I got it and what it does

1063
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: and how I feel and blah blah blah. So anyway,

1064
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: he says, where is your medication? I said, it's in

1065
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 2: my handbag, So get Louisa's handbag. So they bring my

1066
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: red handbag over to me and he says, you can

1067
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,479
Speaker 2: get your medication. So I pulled out my rather large

1068
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: top ofware water bottle and I put it on the table,

1069
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: and then I went down into my handbag to get

1070
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 2: my medication, which actually was not for a mess. It

1071
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 2: was just painkillers. And I took two of those tablets.

1072
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: And then so I did all of that and that

1073
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: was great. And then a little bit later on, he

1074
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: puts his hand on my water bottle and he says, Louisa,

1075
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: anytime you need your medication, you don't have to ask me.

1076
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 2: It's okay. You just help yourself to your medication. And

1077
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, he thinks my medication is in

1078
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: this water bottle. And I didn't have the heart. I

1079
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: just said, thank you, brother very much, my god. But

1080
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: you know, so here's this man, right, he's holding a sausage.

1081
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 2: He has threatened my very life. He's used me, you know,

1082
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: like you said, as a human shield. But then there

1083
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: he is so concerned that I have an illness that

1084
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 2: needs medication. What is this duplicitous, double minded thinking in

1085
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 2: this man? You know, it's the same kind of man

1086
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: that tells his mother or his wife or other that

1087
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: he loves her and then assaults.

1088
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 3: Her, okay, bashes it to a pop.

1089
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 2: It's that same kind of thinking. What is that violence.

1090
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: So, and I suppose seeing someone like that and appreciating

1091
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: that there are ways of plaicating and manipulating the situation

1092
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: from your point of view with him. Okay, so you are,

1093
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: you're a smart lady. So and yeah, you're sitting there,

1094
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: you're processing all this and thinking, okay, this is the

1095
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: way that we've got to deal with this person. Yeah,

1096
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: we'll have a breaking a sect. But the iconic image

1097
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: of that day was the hostages up with the up

1098
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: against the windows. Talk us through through that. How that

1099
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: played out.

1100
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: Well, that started very quickly in the day. He is,

1101
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 2: you know, having people holding up the flag and standing

1102
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 2: at the windows with the hands up against the windows,

1103
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 2: which must have been so disturbing for everybody to see that.

1104
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 2: And he was rotating people. I mean, once again this

1105
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: was a thought. You know, he didn't leave people up

1106
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: there like that the whole day. He said you get up,

1107
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: you sit down, and he was rotating. And at one

1108
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 2: point you said to me, your turns stand up at

1109
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: the window. And I said to him, but I might

1110
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 2: fall because I had my walking stick. And I showed

1111
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: him my walking stick. Ah, he says, and he says,

1112
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: put the walking stick dest I'll put the walking stick

1113
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: on the floor, and then he kicks the walking stick

1114
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 2: out of my reach. Okay, right, okay, you don't have

1115
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: to stand at the window. And then a little bit later,

1116
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: after he'd finished giving instructions in that section, he looked

1117
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 2: at me and he made this sort of like sympathetic face.

1118
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 2: You're sorry about the walkings, but you understand, you know,

1119
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 2: like I would understand that he couldn't let me have

1120
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: my walking stick, And I went, yes, I understand. But

1121
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: you know, it's just how weird, is that right?

1122
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 3: It's terribly weird.

1123
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, like one hand he here's this

1124
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 2: you hideous, ferocious terrorist, and the other hand he's well

1125
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 2: mannered and thoughtful, double mindedness, you know. But see that's

1126
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: just how simple it is, like and you imagine living

1127
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: with someone like that one minute violent and next minute sweet.

1128
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: Okay, let's I know the break. I think you've taken me. Yeah,

1129
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: And as I said, I worked on the case, I

1130
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: did the crime soon, but you've taken me in there

1131
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: in a way that I haven't really appreciated, and the

1132
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: way that you're articulating it. I thank you so much.

1133
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: We're going to leave you in there now and I

1134
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: apologize for that, but when we come back, we'll pick

1135
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 1: up from where we left off. But yeah, thank you

1136
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: for sharing these experiences, Louisa. It's just that it's taken

1137
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: everyone into that situation you found yourself in.