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Speaker 1: Oh hello, welcome to healthy Ish, your daily podcast from

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Speaker 1: Body and Soul. I am your host of Felicity Harley,

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Speaker 1: researcher TikTok Sensation, and author doctor Esme Luise James joins

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Speaker 1: us today to discuss the evolution of kink. Plus she

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Speaker 1: shares a few simple ways you can bring more spicy

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Speaker 1: play into your sex life. If you like what you

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Speaker 1: hear froms May, I know you will listen in to

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Speaker 1: our really fascinating conversation on extra healthy Ish, where we

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Speaker 1: discuss common sex taboos to stop believing. You can grab

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Speaker 1: our sister pod where if you get your podcasts. It's

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Speaker 1: May nice to have you back on the podcast. How's

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Speaker 1: it going?

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Speaker 2: It is going so well. I'm just glad to be back.

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Speaker 2: And we had such a great chat last time we did.

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Speaker 1: And I have to have a shout You need a

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Speaker 1: shout out for the doctor in front of your name.

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Speaker 1: Which has happened since last time you're on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: How does it feel?

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Speaker 3: It's still sinking in. It only happened about four days

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Speaker 3: ago now. So I'm kind of doing the swapover of

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Speaker 3: my driver's license, my passport, and I feel like I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be the arrogant person on the plane. Now,

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Speaker 3: if anyone calls for a doctor.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, own it, own it and champion it,

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Speaker 1: because damn you earn it. Whoever has a doctor, you

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Speaker 1: earn it. Now, talk to us about kink. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we're becoming perhaps a bit more relaxed about this term.

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Speaker 1: What are you experiencing. I mean, you're at the call face,

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Speaker 1: you see people's comments, You've got a massive online following.

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Speaker 1: How do we feel about kink today?

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Speaker 3: I think the conversation is changing quite rapidly. You know,

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Speaker 3: you only go back ten fifteen years on the internet,

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Speaker 3: and we have that idea of don't kink shamee me

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Speaker 3: kind of going around in millennial discourse on MySpace, the

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Speaker 3: idea of, you know, don't yuck someone's yum.

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Speaker 2: But that conversation is changing.

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Speaker 3: Really quickly now because we're starting to not see kink

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Speaker 3: as something that's just outside of the normal of sexual play,

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Speaker 3: somethink that only a few freaky people like to get into.

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Speaker 3: We're starting to understand, in the same way as we

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Speaker 3: understood in ancient times, that kink and exploration in the

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Speaker 3: bedroom is a very very natural part of human sexuality,

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Speaker 3: and that need to kind of explore different dimensions of

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Speaker 3: how we can get as sexual pleasure is something we've

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Speaker 3: always been incredibly interested in, and it's really nice to

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Speaker 3: see that that conversation is starting to shift to more

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Speaker 3: of a normalization of different forms of play in the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the definition of kink has opened up

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Speaker 1: in some ways because or well, yeah, perhaps do what

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Speaker 1: are your thoughts?

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Speaker 3: The idea of kink normally encompasses when it was first

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Speaker 3: kind of created as a term. When you have the

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Speaker 3: likes of Sigmund Freud and Carved von air Being and everything,

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Speaker 3: you know, they define kink, and the idea of it

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Speaker 3: was to define what sexual practices are not normal, which

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Speaker 3: I think is really important to remember that kink was

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Speaker 3: never meant to be like a term of empowerment. It

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Speaker 3: was essentially a term to diagnose perversion. But that is

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Speaker 3: really really quickly changing, as we've said, to this idea

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Speaker 3: of embracing kinks and other forms of play. And also

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Speaker 3: kink is very cultural in its definition. So if kink

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Speaker 3: defines something that isn't normal, and in some cultures oral

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Speaker 3: sex could be a kink, you know, that's not sexual

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Speaker 3: behavior that's productive to procreation right, Whereas kink, because we

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Speaker 3: might define it here in Australia, for instance, generally encompasses

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Speaker 3: people who might want to explore bondage in the bedroom,

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Speaker 3: handcuffs and feathers, different central forms of play. We have

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Speaker 3: a very different definition of kink. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: really starting to own to be a more fluid term

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Speaker 3: just to encompass play.

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Speaker 2: As I say, I think play is a really good

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Speaker 2: way to define it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps we should well rename it play rather than kink,

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Speaker 1: because you're right back to the Freud days. It has

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Speaker 1: got a bit of a negative connotation, hasn't it, And

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Speaker 1: now we should just call it play play.

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Speaker 2: And there's a part of the king community that does,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: We we use the term play to kind of describe

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Speaker 3: going into different scenarios, you know, to start a role play,

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Speaker 3: for instance, to start exploring different parts of your senses.

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Speaker 3: It's generally called play, which I think is a very

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Speaker 3: great term because it kind of encompasses this idea of joy, right,

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Speaker 3: this idea of imagination and different ways that we can

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Speaker 3: stimulate sexual desire that we don't often talk about, or

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Speaker 3: we definitely don't learn about when we have sex education

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Speaker 3: and it.

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Speaker 1: Feels perhaps more accessible, like that something that we can

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Speaker 1: all do and normalized and that it's okay and there's

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Speaker 1: no shame around it.

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Speaker 2: M mmm hmm.

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because even I've got this book

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Speaker 3: that I'm looking at on my bookshelf right now, and

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Speaker 3: the book's called Kink, and it's a fantastic book, great

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Speaker 3: kind of fictional collection of short stories.

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Speaker 2: But the book is black with big red writing.

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Speaker 3: And I think that when we hear that word kink,

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Speaker 3: that's what we think of, right, we think Christian gray

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Speaker 3: and black leather and dark dungeons and spikes in this

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Speaker 3: kind of bit of a bit scary, and you know what,

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Speaker 3: do you know what? Some people are definitely into that.

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Speaker 3: But king can be as simple as playing with feathers

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Speaker 3: in the bedroom, you know, particuling your partner, role playing

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Speaker 3: as anything, role playing as your favorite fictional character, dressing

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Speaker 3: up as mister Darcy from Pride and Prejudice. That's my

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Speaker 3: favorite kind of play. It encompasses such a range of things, right, that's.

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Speaker 2: A good one.

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Speaker 1: What are some fun I'm going to call them kink's

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Speaker 1: slash plays from history that perhaps a popular amongst your

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Speaker 1: followers or that you think are really interesting. Tell us

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Speaker 1: some some.

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Speaker 3: Of the ones that I find really interesting from history,

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Speaker 3: and the eighteenth century is my favorite area of history

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Speaker 3: to study. But there was kind of an explosion of

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Speaker 3: kink play across Europe during the eighteenth century.

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Speaker 2: And it became quite fashionable.

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Speaker 3: And it feels strange to say this now, but spanking

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Speaker 3: became really fashionable. We were writing pamphlets and plays and

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Speaker 3: brothels across London were offering spanking sessions so much so

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Speaker 3: that you could literally and men could leave their workplace

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Speaker 3: at lunchtime, go for a quick spank and come back

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Speaker 3: and it was seen as right.

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Speaker 2: It's bizarre, now, can you imagine.

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Speaker 3: No, But there was this idea that playing right. Oh,

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Speaker 3: it's so bizarre that spanking wasn't just something that was sexual.

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Speaker 2: But they had this.

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Speaker 3: Idea which is rooted in, you know, somewhat physical fact

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Speaker 3: that spanking would help be productive to like your blood

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Speaker 3: flow and you know, producing a healthy body, and it

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Speaker 3: would make you more sexually and vigorous because you are

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Speaker 3: pushing all the blood to your lower regions, and it

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Speaker 3: would make you a better lover.

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Speaker 2: And so spanking was considered something.

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Speaker 3: That was actually quite healthy, especially for men to partake him.

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Speaker 2: And I think about that idea now because.

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Speaker 3: Spanking when we do studies is one of the most

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Speaker 3: common forms. Is like any kind of kinky play in

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Speaker 3: the bedroom, that's one of the most accessible things that

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Speaker 3: when couples people are trying to start to explore, spanking

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Speaker 3: comes to mind pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: And I just love that.

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Speaker 3: Only you know, two hundred years ago we were popping

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Speaker 3: off at lund time to explore the same.

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Speaker 1: Thing for a quick spank. What do you think as

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Speaker 1: some of the most popular kinks today.

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Speaker 3: Most popular kinks that people play with today. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of incorporating some fetishes in here as well. Now,

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Speaker 3: foot play is one of the most across all surveys.

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Speaker 3: Exploring anything to do with feet is always number one

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Speaker 3: or number two. Looking at other forms of kink playing,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've mentioned spanking as one of the kind

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Speaker 3: of immediate ways, almost like as a gateway into the kin.

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Speaker 2: Spanking is often quite high up there. Role play.

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Speaker 3: Role play is one of the most popular forms of

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Speaker 3: kind of any kind of kink play, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's really great to see it up there because what

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Speaker 3: we don't talk about in a lot of our ways

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Speaker 3: to kind of improve our life in.

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Speaker 2: The bedroom is exploring imagination.

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Speaker 3: Imagination is so productive to stimulating sexual pleasure, especially for women.

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Speaker 3: Women often say that this is one of the aspects

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Speaker 3: of the bedroom that.

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Speaker 2: Is most important to them. Right This idea of.

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Speaker 3: Fantasy and roleplay can be a really good way to

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Speaker 3: help you share your inhibitions a little bit if you're

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Speaker 3: wanting to explore, you know, maybe dynamics of dominance and

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Speaker 3: submission in the bedroom. Being able to come in and

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Speaker 3: dress up as a doctor, for instance, might help you

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Speaker 3: kind of get out of yourself and become a character

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Speaker 3: and explore an element of sexual play that otherwise you

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Speaker 3: would feel too shy to.

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Speaker 1: Great advice as May, and well done on the doctor

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Speaker 1: and talk to me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on Healthy.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's some DearS for some spicier sexual play tonight,

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Speaker 1: and I will lable link to es May's last chat

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Speaker 1: on extra healthy Ish. In the show notes, we talked

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Speaker 1: more about kink as well anything else said to Body

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Speaker 1: and soul dot com. Do are you for us and socials?

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Speaker 1: Grab our print edition which is out in your local

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Speaker 1: Sunday paper. Thanks again for listening and stay healthy