WEBVTT - Bonus episode 2: Question Time 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.680 Hi there, it's Fiona Hamilton here, chief reporter at the Times. 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.799 Thanks for listening to Cocaine Nick, our investigation into the 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:21.919 cocaine business from the coca farmers to international money laundering networks. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.800 If you haven't listened to all eight episodes, this episode 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.720 will have spoilers for the whole series, so press pause 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.520 on this and come back after listening to it all. 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.760 And for those who have, we'll be answering your questions today, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:44.120 so thanks for getting in touch. Joining me are my 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.480 two fellow reporters on this series, Stephen Drill from News 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.199 Corp Australia. Hey they're Stephen. Hey, not too bad, thank you. 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.240 And here we also have David Collins, Northern editor at 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.720 The Sunday Times. Hi you, David, Hi, Fiola, Hi guys. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:01.320 How's everyone doing. 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:07.680 I'm good, good, thanks. It's lovely evening here in Melbourne. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:09.559 I feel a little bit like I'm in London today. 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.679 Well, well it's a wet, wet day. You're here in London, 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:14.680 which it has been for several days in a row. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:16.679 So how's it going in the North, David. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.200 I can confirm a hat trick. It's raining in Manchester, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.440 but it always rains in Manchester. It literally always rains 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.640 in Manchester. It's just a standard day. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.400 Here, right. So I think today we're going to get 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.520 straight into listeners questions. We've had some really good questions 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.680 and we've had some voice notes, so let's start with 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.600 one of them. We're going to play the clip to you. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.720 This is Anne in Sheffield in the north of England. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.080 Is she going to say I really liked the podcast? 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.560 Apart from that, David Collins, he's quite annoying. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:49.360 How did you know the first question? 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.040 Hi guys, I've been really enjoying your podcast and just 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.480 heard you shout out for questions, So here's one for you. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.640 I've been wondering what happens to the cocaine and all 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.280 the things when they get seized, like money and weapons? 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:05.760 Where does it all end up? 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.799 So as asking what happens to the illegal items like cocaine, 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.520 cash and weapons that get seized by the authorities, Steven, 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.320 I'd like to go to you first on this one. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.760 Is this something you spoke to the authorities about? 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.600 Yeah, I've actually been in a warehouse in an Australian 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.920 capital city. I won't say exactly where it is because 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.480 there are places all around the country where there's millions 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.200 of dollars worth of cars which are being stored. So 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.079 these are criminals cars and the police they call them restrained. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:37.960 They're not seized. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.400 They're restrained until a huse criminals go through the courts 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.520 and then those cars, if they are actually found to 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.400 be process of crime, they get sold and that money 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.239 goes towards crime prevention. So that's just cars, but there's 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.320 also real estate that gets seized, like millions of dollars 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.160 worth of houses, and then the cocaine itself. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:58.919 There's actually a bit of an issue with that. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:00.920 A lot of times they want to try and stop 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.079 cocaine from getting to Australia because it costs quite a 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.000 bit of money to dispose of, like actually getting rid 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.160 of the cocaine itself and some of those drugs is 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:10.200 quite expensive. 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.840 Well, actually, that's interesting because I found an amazing story 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.720 in Antwerp from a few years back where they have 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.640 to burn all the coke that they're seizing, and they 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.839 were seizing dozens and dozens of tons of coke and 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.120 the gangs were actually trying to steal it back before 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.320 they could get the chance to burn it all because 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.400 it was not the quickest process, and so the authorities 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:37.960 there were trying to thwart midnight raids by armed gangs 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.320 into warehouses, and they had to move all the product 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:45.360 into high security warehouses and put on armed guards themselves. 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.200 So it added a sort of another aspect to an 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:53.400 already pretty momentous task that they were that they were addressing. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.160 And David yourself, when you were investigating the Sunshine and 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.840 Lollipops money laundering group, did the National Crime Agency tell 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.520 you anything about what happens to the cash they can seize. 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.960 I think it's exactly the same. It's taken under the 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.760 Proceeds of Crime Act and it can be put back 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:12.800 into law enforcement. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:14.200 So that's with the. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.920 Cash and then the cocaine. It's interesting someone was telling 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.479 me that one of the issues with cocaine is it 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.080 doesn't burn very well. I don't know if you guys 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.640 have ever heard that, but apparently cocaine like they put 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.559 it in these incinerators, but it's actually quite hard to burn, 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.440 so it takes a long time to do and it's 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.280 expensive as well, so they only do it at certain 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.039 times when they've i think, built up a certain amount 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.800 of it that they can then put through for kind 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.640 of I think for expenses reasons. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.680 Yeah, and presumably just finding the space to be able 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.479 to do something like that. It's a pretty big endeavor 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.800 when you're talking about huge, huge stashes of illegal drugs. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.839 Yeah, totally. I mean I was reading this mad story 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.760 where there was a country, I think it was Ecuador, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.160 where they'd see so much of the stuff they couldn't 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.279 literally burn it in the because there wasn't enough time 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.120 and the incinerators in the country they just couldn't manage 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.160 the volume. So they went to the UN Office of 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.000 Drugs and Crime and said, what do we do with 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.200 olie coke? And basically the UN gave them this recipe 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.840 to make it into concrete, so you end up with 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.040 this like cocaine paste, where you can like there's literally 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.120 buildings in Ecuador apparently built with like blocks which have 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.960 cocaine in them, and it's a way to ma I've 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:44.880 never heard of that before. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.359 That's a new version of cocaine Briggs. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.560 Okay, So on to the next question. This one is 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.360 from Tabby in Sydney. Thanks Tabby. Why do the reporters 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.640 go to such dangerous places to do this kind of work? 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.880 And not just leave it to the police. So Stephen, 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:04.080 what do you make of that question? 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.960 That's a really good question, and it's one that I've 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.240 had to sort of talk to my family about. When 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.080 I went to Columbia, I didn't actually tell my mum. 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.520 I just said I'm just going to the US, and 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.040 I disappeared for a couple of weeks and Tyler after 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.960 I got back. But we have to do these stories 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.960 because it actually brings to life, really what is happening 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.720 with the cocaine trade and what are the real the 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.080 victims of it? And without knowing what these stories are, 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.080 people who go out on their Saturday night and take 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.000 cocaine and think, oh, it's a victim's crime. They'll never 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.240 know And look, this may not change anyone's behavior, but 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.680 if you don't actually try, then nothing changes at all. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:46.680 Yeah. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.120 And also I thought what was really a very interesting 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.039 aspect of your reporting, not only the human cost in 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.760 Latin America and the way the trade works, but also 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.000 sometimes the police put a lot of gloss on their 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.320 siezures and the impact that they're having and the reality 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.320 is somewhat different. And I think without journalists going and 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.760 taking risks like such as what you've done and telling 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.600 those stories. We can't really leave the whole narrative to 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:14.280 them alone. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.040 Yeah, and that's the hard thing. 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.000 It does take a lot of time and effort to 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.760 get these trips going, and they're hard to organize. But 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.120 you do need to be there on the ground to 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.120 talk to people when that's not just a press release, 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.560 when you can actually speak to people directly. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.120 What did your mom say when you told her the truth? 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.080 Yeah, she was like she was a bit confused. She's 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:36.760 aady too, so. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.560 She was like, ah, I mean I did Actually I 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.840 got a second life insurance policy to be quite honest, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.800 because I was just like, well, you never know, just 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.600 because we went in helicopters as well. And yeah, she 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.480 wasn't super happy. Well I was like, yeah, it's fine. 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.640 But then when I actually did go, she was not 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.320 super happy either. But it's going to be done. 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.400 Sure you're around now, you bum from going back to Columbia. 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:01.480 No, I bought like lots of T shirts. 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.600 I bought T shirts from back and really brought calf 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.920 for ones from the market there to buy off the kids. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.680 So I was all right, but yes, I think I'm 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:11.520 barn from Columbia for a little. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:15.000 While and David, you went to Dubai. Can you tell 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.280 us a little bit more about the challenges of reporting 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.800 there and why you went there yourself and didn't just 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.920 tell the authorities in Dubai what you'd found and leave 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:24.640 them to crack on. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.280 Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same, similar to 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.040 what Stevens just said. You know, I do think with 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.360 this sort of report, you've got to be there. You've 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.000 got to be on the ground, You've got to be 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.520 speaking to people. You know, there's a lot of reasons 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.560 for that. You know, you get the truth from the 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.360 person's mouth if you do that, rather than through press 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:49.080 releases or kind of through a PR office. But also 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.360 it brings the story to life. You know, you can 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.960 kind of cover the story of cocaine from quite a 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.520 dry academic point of view and like a policy point 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.439 of view, which always just think the power of journalism 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.840 is in storytelling and telling something in an engaging way. 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.960 We're not just talking about law enforcement and what they're 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.839 doing in Columbia. We're hearing from them, you know, we're 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:18.920 not just talking about corrupt port workers in Rotterdam. You know, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.800 you're with one who's telling us and I do think 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.839 there's a power in that. Specifically on Dubai, I didn't 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.640 necessarily feel at risk, you know, or in danger as such. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.600 It was more kind of the danger came from being 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.840 identified by the UA government as a reporter kind of 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.920 doing undercover work. There's not many media organizations have done 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.280 that sort of work in Dubai, so you know, somebody's 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.439 told me early on. It was one of our foreign correspondents. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.560 Dubai feels safe and everything's great until it's not. And 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.319 that was kind of in the head a lot. It's 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.680 kind of one of those where, yeah, it's all fine, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.040 great tourists go every year, it's not a problem until 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.400 a police officer taps you on the shoulder and says, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.360 are you recording something that was always in our mind? 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:10.240 Yeah. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.000 I think it really shows the importance of being there 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.520 and actually probably leads us quite nicely into our next question, 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.640 where we're going to stay in Australia for a question 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.360 from Toby in Adelaide, who asks did you think about 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.000 glamorizing crime when you were making the podcast and is 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:31.200 that always a risk of this kind of podcast? So 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.840 I might start this one off. I've covered crime for 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.679 many years, and I think that that's probably a consideration 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.440 in most of the stories that we do've always been 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.040 mindful that you don't want to glorify the people behind 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.640 these crimes. But like we've been talking about, it's a balance. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.400 You've got to get the information out there, you've got 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.280 to tell the stories, and you've got to make the 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.040 podcast as interesting and as engaging as you possibly can. 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:56.960 But I think that's why we made a decision right 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.839 from the beginning that we're not going to just look 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:00.920 at the violence. We're going to step back, We're going 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.080 to look at the business structure, how the whole business 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.600 operates globally. Felt that that could be a constructive way 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.960 to look at the industry and see if that would 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.520 offer you insight. And I thought a good example probably 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.040 of that is actually, David your staff, your brilliant episode 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.320 on Ellie Edwards. Now you didn't go into the glorification 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.320 of gangs behind that case. It was a really carefully 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.679 done episode on the terrible human cost behind their crimes. 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.640 Was that something that you really took seriously as well? 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.000 I mean, I think those things as we know, you know, 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.800 we've all reported on crime for a long time and 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.880 it's kind of you know, I think as long as 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:42.560 you do it, you've always got the back in mind 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.000 that you know, the victim you make it victim lad 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.640 or you always have the victims in mind, and certainly 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.320 with that episode, you know, it's about giving Tim a voice. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.920 How the gangs work themselves is of interest to us, 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.560 isn't it. We're talking about the structure of them and 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.600 how they work economically and how they make their money. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.720 But I think, yeah, totally, You're right. It's about striking 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:10.800 a balance. It's about not glorifying the lifestyle that comes 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.680 with it. And I thought actually in one of the 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.640 episodes where Paul Walmsley, who was one of Liverpool's biggest 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.840 drug dealers, you know, I asked him how many drug 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.480 dealers out of one hundred do you think get away 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.800 with it? And he said none, which I thought was 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.080 an amazing answer because I was just like, Wow, you know, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.040 do you really think that is that? Yeah? None? Not 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.439 saying it always catches. 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.920 Up and you're always looking behind you waiting for it 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.720 to catch up. Yeah, and what about you, Steven. 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.720 That was one of my major concerns with this because 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.559 it is such a big project and I mean, if 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.400 you look at shows on Netflix like NACo's or Griselda 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.679 or those sort of things, it's almost gratuitous violence, and 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:53.199 that's what I sort of wanted to. 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:54.760 Try to avoid. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.120 And one of the interviews that I was sort of 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.360 most moved by was when we spoke to Jose Fernando 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.640 Kabaha Raider, the police officer in Colombia who lost his 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.960 legs to a landmine, and that interview is probably one 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.880 of the best interviews I've done in my twenty year 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.520 journalism career. I actually was almost moved to tears when 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.200 I was speaking to him, because he's just so positive 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.560 when he's got every right to not be positive. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.319 He had every right to be angry, and. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.080 He sort of managed to, sort of as best he could, 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.520 move on from it, but it just struck me. He 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.840 put a pretty good positive spin on it when I 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.560 spoke to him. But when I was having lunch with 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.240 a couple of other police a few days later in Colombia, 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.000 I mentioned that I'd spoken to him, and they actually 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.880 were there that day. They were his colleagues on that raid, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.360 and the looks on their faces as they explained what happened, 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.200 it was just horrendous. This guy was like white and 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.360 it was five years later he was just yeah, he 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.560 said they were under heavy gunfire after the bland mine 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.200 went off and it went on for about half an 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.080 hour following, and just getting that insight into exit ex 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.880 actually what it's really like for people and for police 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.240 officers there, and it was just pretty humbling. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.800 Yeah, And I think telling stories from that perspective and 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.880 really avoiding the glorification and just showing that human cost 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.679 is so important. I don't know if it's true of Australia. 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.280 There's a real debate about this in Britain at the moment, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.440 and we see that with dramatization of some crimes. So 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:27.680 and you get a whole spectrum. You get the kind 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.240 of the true crime, you know, which really feels like 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.920 it's glorifying stuff, but then there's some really thoughtful productions. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.200 It's totally away from the drugs trade. But there was 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.680 an it and drama about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.520 several episodes. It barely mentioned Peter Sutcliffe until the last episode, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.280 and it was all about the victims and the police 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.920 officers and the police investigation. I thought it was a 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:54.240 really interesting narrative change actually, and perhaps people are getting 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.239 a bit sick of these things being exaggerated and glorified 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.280 and victims being made victims over and over again in 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.640 the retelling of their stories. And I think that's something 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.000 that we really tried to avoid here and do in 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:06.880 a sensitive way. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.480 It's interesting, isn't it with true crime. True crime is 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.200 not necessarily a bad thing as long as there's a 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.240 public interest to it. Oh, it doesn't go too far 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.400 in the glorification. But if you can ask yourself what 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.360 the public interest is, which I think we could all 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.520 answer with this podcast in different ways, then you know 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.080 that's a good test. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.640 Absolutely, let's jump straight into another question. We've got another 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.640 voice note, and this time it's from Kathy in Sydney. 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.400 Hey, guys, I'm listening from Australia. I really enjoyed the podcast. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.120 It's actually got me questioning a little bit this war 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.520 on drugs that are always hearing about in the media, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.000 and we're hearing about it from the place too. I'm 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.880 wondering now the police telling you guys anything different than 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.360 what we're hearing in the public through the media about 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.080 the war on drugs, and is the media responsible for 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.680 making it seem like this kind of war drugs is 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.800 the only option or that it's working, because it kind 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.120 of doesn't seem like it is. 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.040 What do you reckon? So we've all covered crime for 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.720 a while, we've got our fair share of contacts. Steven, 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:12.160 do you want to take that one first? 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:14.800 Yeah? I think this is a. 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.400 Difficult one to answer, because the war on drug clear 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.520 isn't working because you can still buy drugs everywhere here 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.680 in Australia, and I presume it's the same in the UK, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:26.920 but it was when I was there a few years ago. 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.920 But I think one of the things that would suggest 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.200 that the police are doing something in Australia is that 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.880 it costs so much here. It's about three hundred dollars 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.640 a gram at least for cocaine in Australia. Sometimes some 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.320 people say they pay five hundred dollars, which is about what. 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.600 Three three hundred quid. It's a fair bit of money. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.720 So it's restricting some of the. 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.080 Supply and keeping those prices high, which means that people 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.640 are using a bit less of it. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.880 But I think we're never going to stop organized crime. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.960 There's always going to be somebody who is wanting to 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.680 make cash when people are willing to pay sort of 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.760 top dollar. It's about trying to reduce the number of 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.199 sort of key figures. I mean, because I would rather 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.080 one hundred drug dealers with a million dollars each than 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.600 one drug dealer with one hundred million dollars. And what 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.240 we've seen in the last sort of ten years or 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.520 so is that there's fewer and fewer bigger players and 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.359 that raises bigger problems of corruption and whether they can 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.040 affect politics here in Australia. 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.920 Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean when I speak 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:32.440 to my contacts in the police in wider law enforcement 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.240 about the war on drugs and they're talking privately, I mean, 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.320 I think they're proud of some of their operations, the 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.720 way that they're utilizing technology and data and thinking of 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.640 more complex ways to try and track gangs and thwart gangs. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.760 But there's definitely an acceptance that it really is a 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.320 game of whack a mole and it's a problem that 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.280 is infinitely bigger than the police, and that until people 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.480 stop using these drugs, or there's some major development that 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.720 curtails the trade, or there's some I don't know, breakthrough 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.760 in policy that it will really be ever thus, and 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.040 I do think they're very resigned to that, and that's 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.040 why almost invariably when you interview someone about this stuff, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.760 they will always make that point that they can't stop it. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.280 I mean, is that your experience as well, David? 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.880 Yeah, I'd say that's pretty fair. It's slightly different to Australia, 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:33.399 isn't it, in that the cost of cocaine a gram, 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:38.000 says still is fifty sixty quid, which is, although it's 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:42.359 not cheap, it's probably not as expensive as in Australia, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.240 but then it has to go a lot further, doesn't 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.320 it out to Australia from South America, so the cost 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.359 is added on as a positive. The one thing I 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.680 do think the UK is good at is control over 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:03.159 money because we've got quite strict money laundering laws. It 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.280 is difficult to launder money, you know, for criminals in 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.480 the UK it's not easy. They can get the drugs in, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.240 they can sell them, but what they do you do 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.560 with the money, of even sticking cash and suitcases to 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.560 go out to debay with it. That's quite a cumbersome 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.000 thing to do, isn't it. If you could put all 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.159 those millions into the UK banking system then they would. 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.560 So it's kind of in a weird way, it does 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.800 show that it's working. And when I speak to law enforcement, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.200 you know, for example, banks are very good at flagging 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.200 when people are coming in with large amounts of money. 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.359 Just on this story, I spoke to different hat and 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:44.560 gardens gold dealers just to see how tight it is, 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.919 and they were saying that they don't even take some 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.720 of them don't even take cash anymore because the banks 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.360 won't accept it. I do think that we do get 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:54.360 some of it right. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.560 Well, absolutely, And then it's about the different radical ways 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.400 I suppose in which that could eventually be tackled, which 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.800 leads me nicely into another voice. Note this one's from 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.800 Sam and Ilkley in the North of England. 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.840 Hi, guys just want to say, firstly, great pod. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.159 But as I was listening, it just struck me that 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.600 surely the only real way to disrupt the criminals and 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:26.000 interrupt the money train, etc. Is to legalize cocaine, educate, 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:31.440 regulate tax then the government can keep tabs on how 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.320 strong everything is. It takes the cartels completely out of 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.320 the picture, just like back in the day when alcohol 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.800 was prohibited and al Capone came on the scene and 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:44.160 all that. 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:45.119 As soon as they. 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.280 Regulated it again, that completely gets rid of that element. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:51.520 It's twenty twenty four now. 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.399 They've been fighting the war on drugs since the early 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.200 seventies and obviously failing. People are going to take cocaine, 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.320 whether it's legal or not. Right as well regulate it right, 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:03.919 thanks a lot of guys cheers, mate. 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.919 So Sam's basically addressing this issue and questioning if you 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.800 can't curb demand, then is legalization the answer? And that 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.479 way governments can regulate and tax cocaine while also taking 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.680 cocaine out of the cartel's hands, is the theory. We've 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.000 had loads of comments and questions about legalization. What do 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.560 you both think? Stephen? Can I go to you first? 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:28.720