1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Hi there, it's Fiona Hamilton here, chief reporter at the Times. 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Cocaine Nick, our investigation into the 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: cocaine business from the coca farmers to international money laundering networks. 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to all eight episodes, this episode 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: will have spoilers for the whole series, so press pause 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: on this and come back after listening to it all. 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: And for those who have, we'll be answering your questions today, 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: so thanks for getting in touch. Joining me are my 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: two fellow reporters on this series, Stephen Drill from News 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: Corp Australia. Hey they're Stephen. Hey, not too bad, thank you. 11 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: And here we also have David Collins, Northern editor at 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: The Sunday Times. Hi you, David, Hi, Fiola, Hi guys. 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: How's everyone doing. 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: I'm good, good, thanks. It's lovely evening here in Melbourne. 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 2: I feel a little bit like I'm in London today. 16 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Well, well it's a wet, wet day. You're here in London, 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: which it has been for several days in a row. 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: So how's it going in the North, David. 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 3: I can confirm a hat trick. It's raining in Manchester, 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: but it always rains in Manchester. It literally always rains 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: in Manchester. It's just a standard day. 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: Here, right. So I think today we're going to get 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: straight into listeners questions. We've had some really good questions 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: and we've had some voice notes, so let's start with 25 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: one of them. We're going to play the clip to you. 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: This is Anne in Sheffield in the north of England. 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: Is she going to say I really liked the podcast? 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 3: Apart from that, David Collins, he's quite annoying. 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: How did you know the first question? 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 4: Hi guys, I've been really enjoying your podcast and just 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 4: heard you shout out for questions, So here's one for you. 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 4: I've been wondering what happens to the cocaine and all 33 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 4: the things when they get seized, like money and weapons? 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: Where does it all end up? 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: So as asking what happens to the illegal items like cocaine, 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: cash and weapons that get seized by the authorities, Steven, 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: I'd like to go to you first on this one. 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Is this something you spoke to the authorities about? 39 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've actually been in a warehouse in an Australian 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 5: capital city. I won't say exactly where it is because 41 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 5: there are places all around the country where there's millions 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 5: of dollars worth of cars which are being stored. So 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 5: these are criminals cars and the police they call them restrained. 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: They're not seized. 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 5: They're restrained until a huse criminals go through the courts 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 5: and then those cars, if they are actually found to 47 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 5: be process of crime, they get sold and that money 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 5: goes towards crime prevention. So that's just cars, but there's 49 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 5: also real estate that gets seized, like millions of dollars 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 5: worth of houses, and then the cocaine itself. 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: There's actually a bit of an issue with that. 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 5: A lot of times they want to try and stop 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 5: cocaine from getting to Australia because it costs quite a 54 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 5: bit of money to dispose of, like actually getting rid 55 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 5: of the cocaine itself and some of those drugs is 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 5: quite expensive. 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: Well, actually, that's interesting because I found an amazing story 58 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: in Antwerp from a few years back where they have 59 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: to burn all the coke that they're seizing, and they 60 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,839 Speaker 1: were seizing dozens and dozens of tons of coke and 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: the gangs were actually trying to steal it back before 62 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: they could get the chance to burn it all because 63 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: it was not the quickest process, and so the authorities 64 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: there were trying to thwart midnight raids by armed gangs 65 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: into warehouses, and they had to move all the product 66 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: into high security warehouses and put on armed guards themselves. 67 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: So it added a sort of another aspect to an 68 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: already pretty momentous task that they were that they were addressing. 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: And David yourself, when you were investigating the Sunshine and 70 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: Lollipops money laundering group, did the National Crime Agency tell 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: you anything about what happens to the cash they can seize. 72 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: I think it's exactly the same. It's taken under the 73 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: Proceeds of Crime Act and it can be put back 74 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: into law enforcement. 75 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: So that's with the. 76 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: Cash and then the cocaine. It's interesting someone was telling 77 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 3: me that one of the issues with cocaine is it 78 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 3: doesn't burn very well. I don't know if you guys 79 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: have ever heard that, but apparently cocaine like they put 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,559 Speaker 3: it in these incinerators, but it's actually quite hard to burn, 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: so it takes a long time to do and it's 82 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 3: expensive as well, so they only do it at certain 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: times when they've i think, built up a certain amount 84 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 3: of it that they can then put through for kind 85 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: of I think for expenses reasons. 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and presumably just finding the space to be able 87 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: to do something like that. It's a pretty big endeavor 88 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: when you're talking about huge, huge stashes of illegal drugs. 89 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I mean I was reading this mad story 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: where there was a country, I think it was Ecuador, 91 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 3: where they'd see so much of the stuff they couldn't 92 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: literally burn it in the because there wasn't enough time 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: and the incinerators in the country they just couldn't manage 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 3: the volume. So they went to the UN Office of 95 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: Drugs and Crime and said, what do we do with 96 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: olie coke? And basically the UN gave them this recipe 97 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 3: to make it into concrete, so you end up with 98 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 3: this like cocaine paste, where you can like there's literally 99 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: buildings in Ecuador apparently built with like blocks which have 100 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: cocaine in them, and it's a way to ma I've 101 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: never heard of that before. 102 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 2: That's a new version of cocaine Briggs. 103 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So on to the next question. This one is 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: from Tabby in Sydney. Thanks Tabby. Why do the reporters 105 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: go to such dangerous places to do this kind of work? 106 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: And not just leave it to the police. So Stephen, 107 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: what do you make of that question? 108 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 5: That's a really good question, and it's one that I've 109 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 5: had to sort of talk to my family about. When 110 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 5: I went to Columbia, I didn't actually tell my mum. 111 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 5: I just said I'm just going to the US, and 112 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 5: I disappeared for a couple of weeks and Tyler after 113 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 5: I got back. But we have to do these stories 114 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 5: because it actually brings to life, really what is happening 115 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 5: with the cocaine trade and what are the real the 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 5: victims of it? And without knowing what these stories are, 117 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 5: people who go out on their Saturday night and take 118 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 5: cocaine and think, oh, it's a victim's crime. They'll never 119 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 5: know And look, this may not change anyone's behavior, but 120 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 5: if you don't actually try, then nothing changes at all. 121 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 122 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: And also I thought what was really a very interesting 123 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: aspect of your reporting, not only the human cost in 124 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: Latin America and the way the trade works, but also 125 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: sometimes the police put a lot of gloss on their 126 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: siezures and the impact that they're having and the reality 127 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: is somewhat different. And I think without journalists going and 128 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: taking risks like such as what you've done and telling 129 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: those stories. We can't really leave the whole narrative to 130 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: them alone. 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the hard thing. 132 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 5: It does take a lot of time and effort to 133 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 5: get these trips going, and they're hard to organize. But 134 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 5: you do need to be there on the ground to 135 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 5: talk to people when that's not just a press release, 136 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 5: when you can actually speak to people directly. 137 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: What did your mom say when you told her the truth? 138 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was like she was a bit confused. She's 139 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: aady too, so. 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 5: She was like, ah, I mean I did Actually I 141 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 5: got a second life insurance policy to be quite honest, 142 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 5: because I was just like, well, you never know, just 143 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 5: because we went in helicopters as well. And yeah, she 144 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 5: wasn't super happy. Well I was like, yeah, it's fine. 145 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 5: But then when I actually did go, she was not 146 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 5: super happy either. But it's going to be done. 147 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: Sure you're around now, you bum from going back to Columbia. 148 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: No, I bought like lots of T shirts. 149 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 5: I bought T shirts from back and really brought calf 150 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 5: for ones from the market there to buy off the kids. 151 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 5: So I was all right, but yes, I think I'm 152 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 5: barn from Columbia for a little. 153 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: While and David, you went to Dubai. Can you tell 154 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about the challenges of reporting 155 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: there and why you went there yourself and didn't just 156 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: tell the authorities in Dubai what you'd found and leave 157 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: them to crack on. 158 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same, similar to 159 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: what Stevens just said. You know, I do think with 160 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: this sort of report, you've got to be there. You've 161 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: got to be on the ground, You've got to be 162 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: speaking to people. You know, there's a lot of reasons 163 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 3: for that. You know, you get the truth from the 164 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: person's mouth if you do that, rather than through press 165 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: releases or kind of through a PR office. But also 166 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: it brings the story to life. You know, you can 167 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: kind of cover the story of cocaine from quite a 168 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: dry academic point of view and like a policy point 169 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 3: of view, which always just think the power of journalism 170 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 3: is in storytelling and telling something in an engaging way. 171 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 3: We're not just talking about law enforcement and what they're 172 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 3: doing in Columbia. We're hearing from them, you know, we're 173 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: not just talking about corrupt port workers in Rotterdam. You know, 174 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: you're with one who's telling us and I do think 175 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 3: there's a power in that. Specifically on Dubai, I didn't 176 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: necessarily feel at risk, you know, or in danger as such. 177 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: It was more kind of the danger came from being 178 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: identified by the UA government as a reporter kind of 179 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: doing undercover work. There's not many media organizations have done 180 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: that sort of work in Dubai, so you know, somebody's 181 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 3: told me early on. It was one of our foreign correspondents. 182 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: Dubai feels safe and everything's great until it's not. And 183 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: that was kind of in the head a lot. It's 184 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 3: kind of one of those where, yeah, it's all fine, 185 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: great tourists go every year, it's not a problem until 186 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: a police officer taps you on the shoulder and says, 187 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: are you recording something that was always in our mind? 188 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 189 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: I think it really shows the importance of being there 190 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: and actually probably leads us quite nicely into our next question, 191 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: where we're going to stay in Australia for a question 192 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: from Toby in Adelaide, who asks did you think about 193 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: glamorizing crime when you were making the podcast and is 194 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: that always a risk of this kind of podcast? So 195 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: I might start this one off. I've covered crime for 196 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: many years, and I think that that's probably a consideration 197 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: in most of the stories that we do've always been 198 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: mindful that you don't want to glorify the people behind 199 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: these crimes. But like we've been talking about, it's a balance. 200 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: You've got to get the information out there, you've got 201 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: to tell the stories, and you've got to make the 202 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: podcast as interesting and as engaging as you possibly can. 203 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: But I think that's why we made a decision right 204 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: from the beginning that we're not going to just look 205 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: at the violence. We're going to step back, We're going 206 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: to look at the business structure, how the whole business 207 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: operates globally. Felt that that could be a constructive way 208 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: to look at the industry and see if that would 209 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: offer you insight. And I thought a good example probably 210 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: of that is actually, David your staff, your brilliant episode 211 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: on Ellie Edwards. Now you didn't go into the glorification 212 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: of gangs behind that case. It was a really carefully 213 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: done episode on the terrible human cost behind their crimes. 214 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: Was that something that you really took seriously as well? 215 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 3: I mean, I think those things as we know, you know, 216 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 3: we've all reported on crime for a long time and 217 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 3: it's kind of you know, I think as long as 218 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: you do it, you've always got the back in mind 219 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: that you know, the victim you make it victim lad 220 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: or you always have the victims in mind, and certainly 221 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 3: with that episode, you know, it's about giving Tim a voice. 222 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 3: How the gangs work themselves is of interest to us, 223 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 3: isn't it. We're talking about the structure of them and 224 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: how they work economically and how they make their money. 225 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: But I think, yeah, totally, You're right. It's about striking 226 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: a balance. It's about not glorifying the lifestyle that comes 227 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: with it. And I thought actually in one of the 228 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: episodes where Paul Walmsley, who was one of Liverpool's biggest 229 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 3: drug dealers, you know, I asked him how many drug 230 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: dealers out of one hundred do you think get away 231 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: with it? And he said none, which I thought was 232 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 3: an amazing answer because I was just like, Wow, you know, 233 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: do you really think that is that? Yeah? None? Not 234 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 3: saying it always catches. 235 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: Up and you're always looking behind you waiting for it 236 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: to catch up. Yeah, and what about you, Steven. 237 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 5: That was one of my major concerns with this because 238 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 5: it is such a big project and I mean, if 239 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 5: you look at shows on Netflix like NACo's or Griselda 240 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 5: or those sort of things, it's almost gratuitous violence, and 241 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 5: that's what I sort of wanted to. 242 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: Try to avoid. 243 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 5: And one of the interviews that I was sort of 244 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 5: most moved by was when we spoke to Jose Fernando 245 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 5: Kabaha Raider, the police officer in Colombia who lost his 246 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 5: legs to a landmine, and that interview is probably one 247 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 5: of the best interviews I've done in my twenty year 248 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 5: journalism career. I actually was almost moved to tears when 249 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 5: I was speaking to him, because he's just so positive 250 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 5: when he's got every right to not be positive. 251 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: He had every right to be angry, and. 252 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 5: He sort of managed to, sort of as best he could, 253 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 5: move on from it, but it just struck me. He 254 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 5: put a pretty good positive spin on it when I 255 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 5: spoke to him. But when I was having lunch with 256 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 5: a couple of other police a few days later in Colombia, 257 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 5: I mentioned that I'd spoken to him, and they actually 258 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 5: were there that day. They were his colleagues on that raid, 259 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 5: and the looks on their faces as they explained what happened, 260 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 5: it was just horrendous. This guy was like white and 261 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 5: it was five years later he was just yeah, he 262 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 5: said they were under heavy gunfire after the bland mine 263 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 5: went off and it went on for about half an 264 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 5: hour following, and just getting that insight into exit ex 265 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 5: actually what it's really like for people and for police 266 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 5: officers there, and it was just pretty humbling. 267 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think telling stories from that perspective and 268 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: really avoiding the glorification and just showing that human cost 269 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: is so important. I don't know if it's true of Australia. 270 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: There's a real debate about this in Britain at the moment, 271 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: and we see that with dramatization of some crimes. So 272 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: and you get a whole spectrum. You get the kind 273 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: of the true crime, you know, which really feels like 274 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: it's glorifying stuff, but then there's some really thoughtful productions. 275 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: It's totally away from the drugs trade. But there was 276 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: an it and drama about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was 277 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: several episodes. It barely mentioned Peter Sutcliffe until the last episode, 278 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: and it was all about the victims and the police 279 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: officers and the police investigation. I thought it was a 280 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: really interesting narrative change actually, and perhaps people are getting 281 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,239 Speaker 1: a bit sick of these things being exaggerated and glorified 282 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: and victims being made victims over and over again in 283 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: the retelling of their stories. And I think that's something 284 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: that we really tried to avoid here and do in 285 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: a sensitive way. 286 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 3: It's interesting, isn't it with true crime. True crime is 287 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: not necessarily a bad thing as long as there's a 288 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 3: public interest to it. Oh, it doesn't go too far 289 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 3: in the glorification. But if you can ask yourself what 290 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: the public interest is, which I think we could all 291 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: answer with this podcast in different ways, then you know 292 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: that's a good test. 293 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely, let's jump straight into another question. We've got another 294 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: voice note, and this time it's from Kathy in Sydney. 295 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 6: Hey, guys, I'm listening from Australia. I really enjoyed the podcast. 296 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 6: It's actually got me questioning a little bit this war 297 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 6: on drugs that are always hearing about in the media, 298 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 6: and we're hearing about it from the place too. I'm 299 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 6: wondering now the police telling you guys anything different than 300 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 6: what we're hearing in the public through the media about 301 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 6: the war on drugs, and is the media responsible for 302 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 6: making it seem like this kind of war drugs is 303 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 6: the only option or that it's working, because it kind 304 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 6: of doesn't seem like it is. 305 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: What do you reckon? So we've all covered crime for 306 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: a while, we've got our fair share of contacts. Steven, 307 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: do you want to take that one first? 308 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think this is a. 309 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 5: Difficult one to answer, because the war on drug clear 310 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 5: isn't working because you can still buy drugs everywhere here 311 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 5: in Australia, and I presume it's the same in the UK, 312 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 5: but it was when I was there a few years ago. 313 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 5: But I think one of the things that would suggest 314 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 5: that the police are doing something in Australia is that 315 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 5: it costs so much here. It's about three hundred dollars 316 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 5: a gram at least for cocaine in Australia. Sometimes some 317 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 5: people say they pay five hundred dollars, which is about what. 318 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: Three three hundred quid. It's a fair bit of money. 319 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: So it's restricting some of the. 320 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 5: Supply and keeping those prices high, which means that people 321 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 5: are using a bit less of it. 322 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: But I think we're never going to stop organized crime. 323 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 5: There's always going to be somebody who is wanting to 324 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 5: make cash when people are willing to pay sort of 325 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 5: top dollar. It's about trying to reduce the number of 326 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 5: sort of key figures. I mean, because I would rather 327 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 5: one hundred drug dealers with a million dollars each than 328 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 5: one drug dealer with one hundred million dollars. And what 329 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 5: we've seen in the last sort of ten years or 330 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 5: so is that there's fewer and fewer bigger players and 331 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 5: that raises bigger problems of corruption and whether they can 332 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 5: affect politics here in Australia. 333 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean when I speak 334 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: to my contacts in the police in wider law enforcement 335 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: about the war on drugs and they're talking privately, I mean, 336 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: I think they're proud of some of their operations, the 337 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: way that they're utilizing technology and data and thinking of 338 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: more complex ways to try and track gangs and thwart gangs. 339 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: But there's definitely an acceptance that it really is a 340 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: game of whack a mole and it's a problem that 341 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: is infinitely bigger than the police, and that until people 342 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: stop using these drugs, or there's some major development that 343 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: curtails the trade, or there's some I don't know, breakthrough 344 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: in policy that it will really be ever thus, and 345 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: I do think they're very resigned to that, and that's 346 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: why almost invariably when you interview someone about this stuff, 347 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: they will always make that point that they can't stop it. 348 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean, is that your experience as well, David? 349 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say that's pretty fair. It's slightly different to Australia, 350 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: isn't it, in that the cost of cocaine a gram, 351 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: says still is fifty sixty quid, which is, although it's 352 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 3: not cheap, it's probably not as expensive as in Australia, 353 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 3: but then it has to go a lot further, doesn't 354 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 3: it out to Australia from South America, so the cost 355 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 3: is added on as a positive. The one thing I 356 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: do think the UK is good at is control over 357 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 3: money because we've got quite strict money laundering laws. It 358 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: is difficult to launder money, you know, for criminals in 359 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: the UK it's not easy. They can get the drugs in, 360 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 3: they can sell them, but what they do you do 361 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: with the money, of even sticking cash and suitcases to 362 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: go out to debay with it. That's quite a cumbersome 363 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: thing to do, isn't it. If you could put all 364 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 3: those millions into the UK banking system then they would. 365 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: So it's kind of in a weird way, it does 366 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: show that it's working. And when I speak to law enforcement, 367 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: you know, for example, banks are very good at flagging 368 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 3: when people are coming in with large amounts of money. 369 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 3: Just on this story, I spoke to different hat and 370 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 3: gardens gold dealers just to see how tight it is, 371 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 3: and they were saying that they don't even take some 372 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 3: of them don't even take cash anymore because the banks 373 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 3: won't accept it. I do think that we do get 374 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 3: some of it right. 375 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, And then it's about the different radical ways 376 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: I suppose in which that could eventually be tackled, which 377 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: leads me nicely into another voice. Note this one's from 378 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: Sam and Ilkley in the North of England. 379 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: Hi, guys just want to say, firstly, great pod. 380 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 7: But as I was listening, it just struck me that 381 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 7: surely the only real way to disrupt the criminals and 382 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 7: interrupt the money train, etc. Is to legalize cocaine, educate, 383 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 7: regulate tax then the government can keep tabs on how 384 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 7: strong everything is. It takes the cartels completely out of 385 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 7: the picture, just like back in the day when alcohol 386 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 7: was prohibited and al Capone came on the scene and 387 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 7: all that. 388 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 2: As soon as they. 389 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 7: Regulated it again, that completely gets rid of that element. 390 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: It's twenty twenty four now. 391 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 7: They've been fighting the war on drugs since the early 392 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 7: seventies and obviously failing. People are going to take cocaine, 393 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 7: whether it's legal or not. Right as well regulate it right, 394 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 7: thanks a lot of guys cheers, mate. 395 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: So Sam's basically addressing this issue and questioning if you 396 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: can't curb demand, then is legalization the answer? And that 397 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: way governments can regulate and tax cocaine while also taking 398 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: cocaine out of the cartel's hands, is the theory. We've 399 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: had loads of comments and questions about legalization. What do 400 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: you both think? Stephen? Can I go to you first? 401 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting point. 402 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 5: I actually was having a chat in Colombia with someone, 403 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 5: a local there, and they raised to the point of, well, 404 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 5: fifty years ago or even twenty thirty years ago, marijuana 405 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 5: was illegal and it was also grown in Columbia and 406 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 5: there was crop spraying and that was all a real issue. 407 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 5: And now twenty four states in America have legalized cannabis, 408 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 5: so things can change. 409 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: I think The only way for. 410 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 5: It to really work is if America actually change the rules, 411 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 5: because if say Columbia legalizes a cocaine, well, the first 412 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 5: thing would happen is that they would be banned from 413 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 5: the banking system straight out. America would say, no, that's 414 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 5: not happening. So it's going to be it would have 415 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 5: to be a global change all at once. And I mean, god, 416 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 5: you guys can't even agree on Brexit now, so I 417 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 5: don't know if we're going to have a situation. 418 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 2: Where we can agree on cocaine being legalized. 419 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Well, it's not exactly a great year of for international cooperation, 420 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: is it. What do you reckon, David? 421 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 3: It's a tough one. So a few weeks ago, I 422 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: was actually just in I was in Germany right in 423 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 3: the Peace for the Sunday Times. They've got an interesting 424 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 3: situation where they've legalized possession of cannabis up to a 425 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 3: certain amount. There are restrictions, but there's an issue in 426 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: terms of when I was there, you can't buy it, 427 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 3: although their coalition government would like to sell it in 428 00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: shops that's illegal. I'm not against legalization of certain drugs, 429 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 3: by the way, because what I really like to see 430 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 3: is more debate and honest political debate on it in 431 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 3: the UK because this subject is like kryptonite. I mean, 432 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 3: can you imagine kir Starmer coming out in the next 433 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: few weeks with a new Labor government, even with his 434 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 3: massive majority, saying we're going to have a chat about 435 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: legalizing cocaine. 436 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: It just errupped. 437 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 3: Wouldn't it. I mean, the conservative middle classes, oh my god. 438 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 3: So what I've seen in Germany is there's no point 439 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 3: going to a halfway house. You've got to go whole 440 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: hog on the law because if you have a situation 441 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 3: where you legalize possession but buying it is still illegal, 442 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: then that creates an environment for the drug dealers because 443 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: they can sell more because they know people are buy 444 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 3: it thinking the safe. If I'm caught with it, it's 445 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: not a problem. So the underground market still exist there 446 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: because you can't buy it anywhere else. You can grow it, 447 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 3: but you can't buy it. So it's kind of at 448 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 3: the moment, what I saw was like it was sort 449 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: of boom time for the drug dealers because they haven't 450 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 3: brought in that full of red meat kind of you 451 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 3: can sell it in shops law. So I personally love 452 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 3: to see more debate on it. I want to see 453 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: the research, and yeah, if it works, if you can 454 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 3: regulate it, if you can tax it and make a 455 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: bit of money and cut out the black market, if 456 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: you can create a substance that is safe, because that's 457 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 3: the big one, isn't it. Can you create an alternative 458 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 3: to cocaine? Or you know, is it safe? You know 459 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 3: an eighteen year old? Yeah, you know, that's what parents are. 460 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: So also where you draw the line, So you legalize cocaine, 461 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: but if you don't legalize other drugs, then you risk 462 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: that the market that exists for cocaine going underground. And 463 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 1: I think there's some really big implications in terms of 464 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: it may well reduce violence, It would certainly reduce the 465 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: price of the product, but that would make it probably 466 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: more desirable, and you'd get big corporations involved. Now they've 467 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: got an incentive to increase profits, so increase use. And 468 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: there's ramifications for addiction in relation to that. And I 469 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: find it always interesting that people raise prohibition because of 470 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: course we know that that tobacco is legal, but there's 471 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: a big black market in tobacco, so it's not necessarily 472 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: a panacea anyway. I mean I think it's really interesting, 473 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: But I think you're right, David. We're just nowhere near there. 474 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: Is it the same in Australia, Stephen, I mean, the 475 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: furo that you'd get here if you were going to 476 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: start talking about legalizing Class A drugs would just be 477 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: that majority would be turned around quite quickly. 478 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: I suspect, yeah, Actually it's sort of. 479 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 5: It is controversial in Australia, and there's an experiment experiment 480 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 5: happening right now the Act which is Canberra, which is 481 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 5: where our nation capital is, and so people who aren't 482 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 5: from Australia, it's this very strange place, a little bit 483 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 5: like Washington in the middle of nowhere, but it's full 484 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 5: of very very wealthy people in the average wages more 485 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 5: than one hundred thousand dollars and it's basically full employment. 486 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 5: In October last year, they decriminalized cocaine and ice and 487 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 5: heroin Bazarrely, they wanted to decriminalize ice and heroin because 488 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 5: they thought they'd be being elitist if they only legalized cocaine. 489 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 5: That actually came out in a speech which was perhaps 490 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 5: ill advised. So we don't know yet what's actually happened. 491 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 5: So right now, if you get caught with one and 492 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 5: a half grams of cocaine in Canberra, then you get 493 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 5: referred to health authorities. You don't get taken in by 494 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 5: the police. So it's really a wait and see of 495 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 5: what will happen. Queensland, another state, has said we're going 496 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 5: to have a three strikes rule and that's where if 497 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 5: you get caught three times after the third time you 498 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 5: might then get criminal punishments. 499 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: But I mean, it's really in Australia, lots. 500 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 5: Of young people doing it. I don't think. I mean, 501 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 5: I don't think it really has any stigma anymore. And 502 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 5: that's why I think the podcast is so interesting because 503 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 5: it's really middle class. Now it's more common than not. 504 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 5: It's posh people, the use of hitting record highs in Australia. 505 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 5: So I think there's going to be more debate about this. 506 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 5: The Greens, who aren't they're not hugely influential, but they 507 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 5: do have a voice here in Australia. 508 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: They're pushing for it, so we'll see how it plays out. 509 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: As part of Cocaine Ink, we've all written articles they 510 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: go alongside the podcast. You can read them online at 511 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: The Times dot Com or Daily Telegraph dot com dot au. 512 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: We've had a whole bunch of interesting comments from readers 513 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: and we've picked out a few that I'd love to 514 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: get your take on, guys. Firstly, an interesting comment from 515 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: Times reader James. He read David's report on the wood 516 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: Church estate in Merseyside, which you also go to in 517 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: episode five of the podcast. That's the estate where the 518 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: wood Church Estate gang is selling cocaine in using submachine 519 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: guns in their spats with a rival estate, and James says, 520 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: I live in Dalston in East London and have done 521 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: so for a dozen years. The opening of the overground 522 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 1: the train line improved the area and the area has 523 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: certainly continued to improve. I have read academic papers about 524 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: how violence has been reduced by improved public transport in 525 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: American cities, just as it has been in Dalston. We 526 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: now have more upmarket shops and cafes. And I put 527 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: this all down to the two new overground stations, which 528 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: are well used. Perhaps building a station could do for 529 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: wood Church what Dalston Kingsland has done for my area. 530 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: So David, what do you make of that? How much 531 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: does public transport and infrastructure impact the prevalence of these gangs? 532 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 3: I think it is a really important actually aspect, and 533 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: it's an interesting point of the idea that tackling these 534 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 3: gangs and organized crime it goes beyond simple law enforcement 535 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 3: and sticking handcuffs on. It's a whole societal thing. It's 536 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 3: the wood Church in particular reminds me of certain kind 537 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: of valleys in Wales where it's like a fishbowl and 538 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 3: it's kind of like there are kids on there. When 539 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: you speak to them, you talk to about Liverpool like 540 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: it's it is Dubai. It's so far away. I would 541 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: never go to Liverpool. It's a few miles away over 542 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 3: the river, but you just don't leave the kind of 543 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 3: stuck on the wood Church estate with no opportunities. And 544 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: I do think public transport better links, it increases your 545 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 3: options educationally, jobs. Every single type of opportunity and chance 546 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: that you can access comes by having really good trans 547 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 3: bought links and the link to up place because everybody 548 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 3: drives and a lot of these kids don't have cars, 549 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: so they end up stop there and they get stopped 550 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 3: into gangs. So yeah, I mean, I do think I'll 551 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 3: get my high horse now as my other as Northern 552 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 3: editor where you can edit this out if you wire. 553 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: But the statistics per capita do say that the southeast 554 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 3: of England per head, has more public transport investment than 555 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: people in the Northwest. So I do think there's a 556 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: big gap there and more investment needs to be made. 557 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, Stephen with you, are there any comparisons in 558 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: Australia with isolated communities and crime rates. 559 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's sort of. We have a lot of new 560 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 5: housing estates. It's sort of Australia's house prices are stupid. 561 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 5: The system just doesn't work, and what we've done is 562 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 5: put just more suburbs just further and further and further out, 563 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 5: Like some parts of Melbourne where I live can be 564 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 5: better one hundred kilometers from the city and it's still 565 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 5: considered Melbourne. So you've got people who are out there, 566 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 5: the kids that there is no public transport, there's nothing 567 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 5: to do, and there's no way to get anywhere. The 568 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 5: buses really aren't very well used here and places parting 569 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: parts of Sydney. Matt drew that there's just no cash around, 570 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 5: So then it all starts to become a bit of 571 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 5: a hopeful situation and all the money's funneled into the 572 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 5: POSHA eastern suburbs and kids get left behind. 573 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Okay, we also have some interesting comments about money laundering. 574 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: Several readers brought up cryptocurrencies and whether they're making it 575 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: easier to move and launder money. What do you reckon, Steve? 576 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: And I mean, from what I've reported on that area 577 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: in the past, it's been pretty unregulated, but perhaps things 578 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: are tightening up a little bit now. 579 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: Just the wild West. 580 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 5: Cryptocurrencies really are just mainly or that were set up 581 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 5: and have been exploited by criminal groups, and they do 582 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 5: have some small footprint. They can be traced eventually because 583 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 5: they have to be traced in some ways because you 584 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 5: have to prove that that money belongs to you. 585 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: But they just bounce around so quickly. 586 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 5: It was described to me as like being an atom, 587 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 5: Like this is an electronic just going around and around. 588 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 5: It moves so fast that you have to go and 589 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 5: try and trace it through hundreds, if not thousands, of 590 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 5: different transactions, which makes it really. 591 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: Hard for police. 592 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 5: I just think it's there should be more regulation and 593 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 5: I don't really see the need for them. And we've 594 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 5: got here in Australia when we watch the football as 595 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 5: crypto dot com is the main advertisement, and like, I 596 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 5: don't see the justification. Actually really makes me angry every 597 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 5: time I sort of watch the foot like why are 598 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 5: we promoting these things? 599 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: What do you think? David? Was this something that came 600 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: up as an issue in your reporting as well? 601 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of those areas where I'm no 602 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: expert on this, by the way, but I mean it 603 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 3: always comes up as one of the weaknesses, if you like, 604 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 3: in the system, and criminals will always, as we know, 605 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 3: they will try on ninety nine things and if the 606 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 3: hundreds works, that's what they'll do. And any chink in 607 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 3: the armor, if you like, in the system is what 608 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 3: they'll put the money into. And crypto definitely is obviously 609 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 3: one of those one of those chinks because you can 610 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: transfer money so fast around to people on the other 611 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 3: side of the world. Stephen says, you know, ownership changes 612 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: so quickly, and that's the whole key with money laundering. 613 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 3: It's to move. The more links in the chain between 614 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 3: the act of selling the drug and the money itself, 615 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 3: the harder it is to be caught, you know. So 616 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: it's going to help criminals. And actually I heard the 617 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 3: other day that you know, one step further now is 618 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: there are kind of the underground illegal bookmakers. I'm not 619 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: sure you can even call them butt makers, but online 620 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 3: casinos which don't have licenses, where you can use cryptocurrency 621 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 3: to put bets on, you know. So that to me, 622 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: it's just another way that criminals can move money. 623 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 624 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: And also I suppose we've been talking about international cooperation 625 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: and the lack thereof in some cases, and it's hard 626 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 1: enough to get cooperation from some regimes to track money 627 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: in the traditional sense, let alone digital currencies whizzing about 628 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: all over the place that can be moved so rapidly 629 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: and so easily, So it does seem to present a 630 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: giant obstacle at the moment. 631 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 632 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 3: Completely. 633 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 5: And when you think about those illegal gamblings or the 634 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 5: black marketing and gambling. 635 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: If you have got a million dollars puddle on a 636 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 2: horse race in. 637 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 5: Australia, the actual black marker is about ten times that much. 638 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 5: So there's this huge area of cash moving around, and 639 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 5: that is criminal money, that is drug money that's being moved. 640 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: And because if you if you haven't any earned to it, 641 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:52,479 Speaker 2: who cares if you lose? 642 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: So, guys, we're nearing the end of our time together. Lastly, 643 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you both about how you feel 644 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: about the cocaine trade after working on the series. We've 645 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: all worked in crime reporting for a long while. I 646 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: spoke personally a little bit about my past reporting on 647 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: young men and drug gangs in the podcast. Why did 648 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: you both want to start looking into the cocaine trade? 649 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: Can I start with you Stephen? 650 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, I just wanted to really see how big this 651 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 5: business was and look at it from the point of 652 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 5: view of a business, not just a crime, because it 653 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 5: seems like it's just got bigger than that, and from 654 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 5: what we've found, that's probably a fair fair comment. I 655 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 5: don't think we're going to stop the cocaine trade. It's 656 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 5: a matter of trying to see where it can be 657 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 5: limited or what can be done, or having that debate 658 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 5: of whether we go and say, right, let's open the 659 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 5: doors and legalize it. But the other issue with that 660 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 5: is if everyone was doing cocaine so the rates were 661 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 5: drinking alcohol, we don't have hospitals full of people with 662 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 5: heart problems. It's not sort of a teddy bear drug. 663 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 5: He's a serious drug, and that's possibly what we kind 664 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 5: of forget and so many people when I've talked to 665 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 5: them about the podcast what we've done. Particularly people in 666 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 5: my age group in their forties friends have said their 667 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 5: mate's husbands blew up their marriage because of the cocaine 668 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 5: have it? 669 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: Someone else, a guide a. 670 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 5: Minute at the airport, talked about his mate and how 671 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 5: he'd blown up his life as well. So there's a 672 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 5: real cost to the users as well that perhaps sometimes 673 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 5: gets overlooked. 674 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: And what about you, David, what was your motivation for 675 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: really wanting to do a deep dive into all of this? 676 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 3: I mean, for me, I guess it's one of those 677 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: subjects that it's always been there. But I didn't really understand, 678 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: if I'm being honest, how it worked as a business. 679 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 3: I knew that obviously, as most people do, that cocaine 680 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 3: comes from South America and it gets shipped over to 681 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: Holland and then in the UK. But how does the 682 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: price of a gram of cocaine? How's that stayed the 683 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 3: same for the last fifteen years when everything else has 684 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 3: gone up in price? And why don't these massive seizures 685 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 3: necessarily hit the cartels? And I've just I've learned, genuinely 686 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 3: so much through both of your reporting as well. I 687 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 3: guess One of the things that I like the most 688 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 3: about our podcast series is that we do explain the 689 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 3: economics of how organized crime works. And you don't get that. 690 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 3: I don't think in a lot of crime reporting, just 691 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 3: because podcast it does give you a chance to do 692 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 3: a real deep dive and get into the real content 693 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 3: of it. Hopefully you know that's going to make me 694 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 3: a better reporter going forward when I'm speaking to law 695 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 3: enforcement or criminals or whoever it is. 696 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: And that gets us into the big question. I suppose 697 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: perhaps one for you first st even having done all 698 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: of this, what are your thoughts? Is the war on 699 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: drugs futile? 700 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 5: In a word, Yes, We're never going to stop people 701 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 5: wanting to get high. I just like when America tried 702 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,439 Speaker 5: to ben alcoholic it didn't work. It's just a matter 703 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 5: of how. 704 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: Much you try. 705 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 5: And I mean the other comparison is if you look 706 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 5: at the war on drugs in Mexico, which really started 707 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 5: in earnest in two thousand and six. I've had more 708 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 5: than four hundred thousand murders there since two thousand and six. 709 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 5: Advance has got so much worse because the cartailers have 710 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 5: really sort of fought for their power so I'm not 711 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 5: saying there's any easy solution to the situation. It's just 712 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 5: when there's greed, when there's money involved, people are willing 713 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 5: to kill, and there's a cost to all of this. 714 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm afraid I tend to sort of take a 715 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: bit of a pessimistic view about the futility of it all. 716 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: What about you, David, Are you going to try and 717 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: bring something positive to the table again or do you 718 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: think it's all a bit futile? 719 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 3: You know what I always said. I've just rewatched you know, 720 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,240 Speaker 3: The Wire. It's about the cops and the drug dealers 721 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 3: in the US. It's like an amazing like drama series. 722 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 3: And the series that I think is really interesting is 723 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 3: where You've got that rogue district commander Bonnie Colwyn, And 724 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 3: basically it's so futile and he's coming to the end 725 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 3: of his career and he's seen how they twists the 726 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 3: stats and nothing gets done, so he just decides to 727 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 3: make a street in his district and legalize everything, so 728 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 3: like you can go there and get cocaine, heroin, whatever 729 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 3: you want. It's all on this one street. But in 730 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 3: the rest of the district there's nothing, and crime stats dropped. 731 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 3: I mean, I know it's only a TV show, but 732 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 3: you know, he got in such trouble politically and it 733 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 3: blew up in with the mayor's office and to the public. 734 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 3: All the politicians and the police commissioner was like, this 735 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: is outrageous. It's the work of one rogue commander. But 736 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 3: behind closed doors they were like, but it has dropped 737 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 3: crime thirteen percent in his district. So you know what 738 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,439 Speaker 3: I think is that, yes, at the moment, the way 739 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 3: we're going about it is kind of futile, but it 740 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 3: just needs more honest debate. And that comes from first, well, 741 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 3: it comes from people being better at educated, but also 742 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 3: it comes from politicians being brave enough to actually put 743 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,959 Speaker 3: this on the table and commission the research and say, 744 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 3: you know, we're going to look at what works, not 745 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 3: what works to get us elected. 746 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there needs to be a change 747 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: in public appetite to address this issue, and perhaps at 748 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: this moment, with all the other major issues of public importance, 749 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: that's going to be quite difficult. But that just means, 750 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, the scale of murders in Mexico on abating 751 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: and all the other issues that we've spoken about. I mean, 752 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: this really is a global crisis? 753 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 754 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 3: Completely? 755 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: Is it? 756 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: Anything else anybody wanted to add? 757 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 3: I've done my Bunny Colwyn anecdote. That's all I have. 758 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: That was good. 759 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: Well, that was great. Thanks so much David and Stephen 760 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: for joining me today. Really appreciate it. 761 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 2: Thanks Piana Tears, Fianna, Thanks Steven. 762 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to the whole series, make sure 763 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: to listen back to all the episodes they're out now. 764 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: You can continue to get in touch with the team 765 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,919 Speaker 1: at Cocaine Inc. At The Times dot co dot uk. 766 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: But for now that's it for Cocaine Inc. If you 767 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: enjoyed this series or found it helpful or informative, please 768 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: do tell all your friends and family about us and 769 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: give us a review on your podcast app. It helps 770 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: other people to find us. Lastly, thanks to everyone who 771 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: got in touch, and thanks so much to everyone across 772 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: the world for listening. Cocaine Inc. Was a joint investigation 773 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: from The Times, The Sunday Times and News Corp Australia. 774 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: The reporters were David Collins, Stephen Drill and me Fiona Hamilton. 775 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: The series was produced by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers 776 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: were Will Row and Dan Box. Audio production and editing 777 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: on this episode is by Martin Peralta, with original music 778 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: by Tom Virtull.