WEBVTT - #2115 Start Before You're Ready - Dr. Sam Casey 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.080 Good eight Champions. Dr Sam is back on board for 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.240 the You Project. Craig Anthony Harper is my name, But 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:09.320 do you know that? And it's fair to say, doctor Sam, 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.280 that we just had a little micro coaching session before 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.760 we started rolling, because you've got can I say, we 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.080 won't say where or what, but you've got a reasonably 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.960 big public speaking event coming up. And while I'm sure 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.520 you'll kill it and crush it, there's a tiny little 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.760 bit of nerves in there, which is healthy and good. 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.720 Was it helpful? Was the little micro coaching session helpful? 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.960 It really was, And I think being able to even 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.040 babelize that right of going actually I'm feeling really nervous 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:40.880 about it, and this is kind of where I feel 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:42.640 like the gap isn't being able to look that through 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.560 I think is really it is really helpful. It gets 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.479 me to focus on the areas that I know I 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.520 need to while feeling confident with the areas that I've 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:53.760 got down packs. So it's good and. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.080 I think you're right, it's really important that we can 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.760 verbalize stuff. And I think also from even when we 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.440 have I'll call you an expert, oh, I call me 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:05.680 because that sounds fucking arrogant. But let's say we've got 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.040 two experts on a show right chatting, and then when 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.080 one of the experts goes, oh well I fuck this 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.160 up regularly, people are like, oh, well, you're more relatable 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.080 and the fact that you are very good at your job, 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.440 your world class, you're a leader in your space. But 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.399 now we're doing something which is kind of adjacent but 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.959 not the same as, which is working with a group 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.520 of people educating people. But as I said to you, yeah, well, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.560 you're not lecturing university students. I didn't say that actually, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.119 but it's very different. If you've got one hundred UNI students, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.640 you're in an academic setting, we're in a lecture theater. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:40.720 You kind of just got to give them the information 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.360 you want it to be not too boring. But then 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.040 when you're in a public speaking environment where you don't 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.120 know who you're talking to. They could be educated academically 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.120 or not. They could be there's you know, two hundred people, 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.560 You've got two hundred personalities, two hundred backgrounds, two hundred 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.200 lenses are looking at you through their own kind of filter, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.600 and so there is essentially as an experience for all 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.480 of them, there's two hundred different versions of SAM. And 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.480 so that's the thing is like trying to understand And 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.160 I told you we were going to dive into my 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.440 stuff today a little bit just because I want to 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.680 get your feedback on stuff, but trying to understand the 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.040 SAM experience for a people full of room, a room 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.400 full of people. Put your teeth in a room full 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.000 of people in real time. Like that's because one, you've 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.200 got to get up there and do your presentation. You've 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.080 got to not stammer and stutter. You've got to be 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.560 at the very least kind of look okay and confidence 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.079 and you know, but then at the same time you 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.959 need to be present enough to go all right, I 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.320 might chuck in a little activity here because I feel 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.480 like I'm losing them, or you know whatever. It is 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.400 that ability to be able to know your shit but 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.680 also adapt in real time and be present in real 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:04.840 time and not be the the very intelligent, educated person 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.400 who gets up there and the room finds my numbingly boring. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:13.280 So it's a real it's like a multitasking kind of 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.320 in the moment thing. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.280 Oh, I've just been to so many of those kind 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.480 of presentations myself. You know, when I go to professional 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.960 development that I'm sitting in this in a presentation and 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.640 I'm looking at these slides and going this literally looks 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.320 like copy and paste jobs from a jeneral article, and 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.280 I could have read this journal article. Or they're just 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.640 reading like literally academic like academica, you know kind of stuff, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:41.720 and there is no translating it to practice. There's no context, 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.200 there's no stories, there's no deeper understanding than what I 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.440 would have got from just reading that. And so yeah, 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.200 I know what that feels like. It's almost like you 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.720 kind of just check out mentally. No one presitation like that, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.800 so I know what it's on the other side. So 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.800 I don't want to give that experience either. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.960 I think some people call this, which is just a 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.560 bit of a play on words I'm writing it down, 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:10.120 they call it edutainment, right. I like it entertainment because 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.240 and you don't need to be a performer or a 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:19.479 stand up comic or a world class storyteller, but a 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.160 little bit of all of that. You know, it's because like, well, 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.159 do you want them to like you? And I know 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.360 that sounds like an insecure question, but will fucking of course, 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.760 because I want them to say good things and have 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.120 a good experience and learn and hopefully build a poor 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.680 and connection. And some people think that if they're confident 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.919 with their topic, they'll be a good speaker. And the 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.320 amount of times probably you've seen that, and I've seen 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.000 that where somebody who is literally more intelligent than me 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.919 got more knowledge than me about a different area anyway, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.279 and they get up and I feel bad for them 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.159 because the energy in the room just fucking dies a 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:04.120 horrible death while they soldier on with their PowerPoint slides 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.000 or worse. And I've seen this happen multiple times where 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:12.440 their PowerPoint crashed and they could not recover. They did 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.000 not know what to do because they couldn't just be 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:21.279 there in real time just talking about their stuff because 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.599 it's all choreographed. You know. 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.599 That would even feel like more pressure too, right because 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.320 they'd be like, I know exactly how it's meant to 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.600 go from you know, slide one to ten, and then, 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.560 like he said, something happens in side three and they 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:33.640 just don't know how to come back from that because 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.800 they're like only nowhere in this order, I don't know, yeah, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:38.920 what to do now, versus like you said, just feeling 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.160 away kind of confident and yeah, in what you're doing, 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.640 I would assume just within his yeah, And I. 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.560 Think for anyone listening who is somewhat interesting, not necessarily 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.039 being a public speaker, but you know, when you're trying 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.400 to solve problems with people or help open kind of 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.960 an awareness door for people, or to educate or inform 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:05.039 people in a way which works for them, right, because 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:06.920 I think one of the biggest things, you know, there's 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.680 an idea in psychology called the false consensus effect, where 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.640 we assume that other people think like us. So I 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:16.719 would in that case, I would get up and I 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.640 would talk as I was talking to one hundred crags, right, 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.000 But there's not one hundred craigs in the room. There's one. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.839 So if I talk as though I was talking to 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.599 one hundred different versions of me, undoubtedly I will crash 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:36.080 and burn. So to start from the assumption that are 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.719 they're not like me, not better or worse, They're just 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.599 not me. They're different and trying to ascertain you know. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.560 That's why as much as you can, you figure out 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.160 who's going to be in the audience, so you can 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.640 you might just go, oh, it's the general public that's cool, 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.240 or these are all corporates, or these are all the 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.239 lead athletes. All these are all blokes that I'm working 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.960 with on a construction site, which I've done. All these 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:58.839 are all blokes that I'm working with in a prison, 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.120 which I've done, or I've done multiple gigs. At the 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.400 Royal Australian College of Surgeons Annual Conference, I go, well, 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.240 everyone in the room except me is a surgeon, right, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.640 so that gives you certain context. Right, So I'm not 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.680 going to talk to the room full of surgeons like 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.960 a room full of whatever our trade is not because 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.239 one's better or worse, but they just don't typically think 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.840 and talk and solve problems the same. So I'm always like, 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.600 who's my audience? What am I talking about? What are 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.440 the key things I want to get across? But more importantly, 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:36.400 how do I build trust, respect and rapport quickly and 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.720 give them something that is going to be helpful? Like, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.160 just really is this helpful? Because so much shit is 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.840 not helpful. It's just fucking noise. 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.360 It's noise, and it's just an information overload. And they 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:53.440 leave and they're like I don't feel any better off, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.640 Like I don't have a next step. I don't have 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.880 this insight that I can actually translate to practice or yeah, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.160 so I agree, you don't want to you don't want 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.560 to give a talk like that where people don't leave inspired, 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.160 maybe feel a bit challenge, but also you know, has 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.000 that next step bit to it as well. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.160 And there's another I guess another component that people are 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.560 aware of and think about but then don't necessarily have 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.440 a strategy, which is the fear and the anxiety and 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.760 the nerves. Yeah, and it's like, oh, well, and this 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.360 is a well worn trope here at the at the 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.240 U projects, I apologize for my listeners, but I don't know. 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.800 At least five hundred times in my life, probably a thousand, 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.400 I've been asked by people how do I overcome my 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.040 fear of public speaking? And the answer is very unexciting 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.880 because the answer is by public speaking. Yep. You know. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.040 It's like, how do I get better at doing arm 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.920 bars in jiu jitsu by doing arm bars in jiu jitsu? 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.120 How do I get better at tennis because I'm shit? 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.320 By playing tennis? So you know, we also spoke before 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.800 about sometimes the best, the most advantageous and productive and 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.720 fruitful kind of thing that you can do for your 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.600 growth and your development and for you to build a 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.120 brand and competence in this field and space is a 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.199 thing that you don't fucking want to do because it's 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:16.600 hard and. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.720 Horrible, and yet that is the way through, right, The 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.640 obstacle is a way. That's Ryan Holiday's book. You know, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.520 I'm starting with them, yeah, which is for me just 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.120 feels like such a concept that I especially coming from 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.400 an academic background. You know, we try and read and 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.520 prepare and get this knowledge and then we're going to 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.960 be ready, right. And I think sometimes even a mental 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.120 health system still speaks like this. It's like, go to 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.000 therapy and let's just learn more skills and war coping strategies, 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.360 and no one talks about the actual thing that helps, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.880 especially when it comes to anxiety, is doing the thing, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.160 experiencing life. It's the experiences that actually helps us, not 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.920 the preparation in our heads for it. And I think 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:56.640 about that with public speaking. A lot of the time 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.240 people are like, let me just get confident first, let 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:01.520 me get all this fear out of the way, and 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.800 then I will start being a public speaker, rather than 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:05.920 going actually, I'm going to feel the fear and I'm 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.040 going to do it anyway, this doesn't actually have to change, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.080 but through the process of showing up even amongst this, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.280 it will change. That is how it does, right when 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.080 you have new experiences and you're able to overcome. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:23.960 In Yeah, this seems like a self centered, egotistical question, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.880 but it is at the core of my research. Do 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.240 you ever think about what it's like being around you 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.400 for the rest of the world, like on this podcast, 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.840 with your kids, with your friends, with your peers, for 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.800 your patients, for the parents that you do you ever 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:43.080 think what is the Sam Casey experience like for other people? 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.600 And does that matter? And why does that matter? And 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.880 maybe what cold or should I do with that awareness. 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.880 That's really good, that's really good question, because you know, 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.880 given my academic background leaving high school quite early on, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.719 I was never the smart one, is never the one 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.840 acing school. I was failing, right, So I never had 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.480 that identity of being that, but I definitely saw that 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.280 with a lot of people. And then I obviously know 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.280 what the title doctor holes in society, So I think, 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.559 if anything, I'm probably really quite conscious of that, probably 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.760 since getting the PhD, not so much the degrees, but 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.280 when I got my PhD, I was like whoa. People 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.240 are going to see me a certain way and almost 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.880 like put me on a pedestal in potentially good ways, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.400 but not so great ways too. And I think that 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.880 power in balance I've become very conscious of because you know, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.520 people asking for advices and just asking someone for advice, 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.120 you know, they're like, you're a doctor, so what you 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.079 say is like, and I'm having to constantly, especially as 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.439 a therapism, having to constantly remind them you're an expert 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.160 in your life. I've not lived your life before. Yeah, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.320 I'm to be a mayor. I'm supposed to be, you know, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.360 walking alongside you on this journey. Yes, I may have 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.160 expertise in all these human behavior and psychology and all 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.640 of those things, but you have expertise on yourself and 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.680 together that we're on this journey rather than them kind 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.160 of giving all the decision making to me. So yeah, 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.120 I do think about that a lot, and I think 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.960 it can help in ways thinking about it, because it then, 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.400 you know, gets me to be conscious of the power dynamics, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.600 for example. But on another token, I think sometimes it 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.679 also could be something that they're working through too, And 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.840 I think the more I can share maybe my journey 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.440 about how I take radical responsibility for my life and 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.880 I don't believe there is any expert out there that 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.000 knows me as well as myself. It means I can 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.960 go to people for advice, so I can get great advice, 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.840 but ultimately, right I hold the decision making for my life. 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:36.600 I have to go do the hard thing. You can 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:38.840 sit and talk to me for hours about public speaking, 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:40.160 giving me all the tips, but at the end of 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:41.880 the day, I have to drive myself out of bed 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.240 that day and to put it on clothes and get 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:44.880 on that stage. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:45.280 Right. 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.160 So I think the more I hope that I can 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:52.120 share that journey for myself, you know, of being responsible 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.800 for my life, the more hopefully others will yeah, take 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.680 the experts off the pedestal and start taking responsibility for 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.600 their yeah, and. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.839 Whether or not it's getting on stage or doing something else. 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.839 I think that kind of thinking applies. And also one 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.920 of the you know, because I'm very late to that. Well. 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.800 I did my undergrad degree a long time ago in 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.320 exi science, but I'm late to the game, and you know, 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.520 so for me, academia is like a curious wonderland of 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.200 brilliance and bullshit. I'm like Some of it's fucking amazing. 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.760 Some of it I'm like, oh, this is I won't 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.760 use the word that I want to use, but this 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.560 is so not brilliant. This is like, oh my goodness, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.800 there is a mix of genius and stupidity in the 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:42.080 same room. Like you're like, how fucking hard can you 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.559 make this one thing? Like even sometimes meetings at university, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.000 I'm like, ah, I could make this meeting ten minutes, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.640 not an hour and a half. We could get everything done. 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.920 Most of what was said in there was just fucking 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:02.080 people just rambling or maybe twenty minutes, you know. And 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:03.920 of course then there are other things where I'm in 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.760 a conversation and I'm a fucking idiot because I don't 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.160 know what they know, right, So but I think I 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.080 think the ability or the willingness maybe to go like 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:21.560 if all my knowledge is sounds funny, but a box 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.960 of tic TACs, right, that's all my knowledge. That's all 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.520 as a box of tic TACs. All of those tic 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.560 TACs except for one at the bottom, has come through life, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.280 not through research or study or academia. Like I think 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:40.960 we really in our culture overestimate the value of academia 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.320 as an attribute I think it's I think it's valuable. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.680 Don't don't misquote me or misunderstanding I think it's valuable. 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.840 I think it's good. But when I try to explain 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.600 to people, they go, oh, so you'll be a doctor 0:14:54.640 --> 0:15:01.960 of psychology. I go, well, technically, yes, but if psychology 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.840 is an ocean, I spent six years studying a drop 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:11.600 of water in that ocean of information and knowledge and research. 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.800 So if we wanted to be really accurate, I will 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.680 have a doctorate in a meta perception and meta accuracy, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.880 which almost nobody knows what it is. And that's cool. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.080 But I could then perhaps be loosely termed an expert 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.440 in that. But psychology is so big, But that's true. 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.360 With a lot of degrees. You come out and you're 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.840 a you're a doctor of engineering, or you're a doctor 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.840 of business or you know. But I know the fuck 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.160 ten people with pH ds in business who have never 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.040 owned a business. Yes, like they have a doctor in business, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.920 but they've never owned a business. I might go talk 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:51.560 to a successful business owner. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:57.960 First, Yeah, you're right, it is such a Oh it is, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:15:59.840 it's so important, But then it also so with it. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.440 Think about the knowledge and how much it actually influences us. 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.680 When you know, when you look at the field of psychology, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.960 a lot of the time people do think of psychology 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:10.920 is only the DSM and only you know, diagnostic stuff, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.800 and that's really not a lot of the core and 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.200 the foundational stuff of psychology. You know, it's how we 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.120 experience life and meaning making and all of these subjective experiences. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.560 And then what you said there around the entrepreneur, it's 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.000 the experience that they've learned, writing the lessons and the 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.520 wisdom that comes from that, which was knowledge. There's no 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:33.680 feedback loop, like we're getting knowledge, but we're not really 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.080 being able to reflect on how we're processing it and 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.320 how that's coming out. And my actual PhD research found this, 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.000 and I was structed with it too, because when we 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.320 were looking at how does someone get trained and working 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.880 with different cultures for example, it's like, let's get more 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.400 knowledge around this. And what we found is no matter 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:56.760 for PhD level therapists, to graduate therapists, it wasn't knowledge 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.240 that was coming out in their sessions. It was actually 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.760 their own callas, their own worldviews, their own but their 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.800 own stuff. Yes, and yet they don't I noticed in 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.879 social work, we very much do we do a lot 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.320 of critical reflection, but I find in psychology they don't 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.119 really have much space for that because we're meant to 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.400 be this blank slate. And so the problem was they 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.399 were like, oh, no, I'm being super professional. My degree 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.159 is the only thing I'm using when I'm working with 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.360 this family. But actually it was their own views about 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.080 what a mum should do and what a dad should do, 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:25.600 and what a child should do and all of these 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.280 things coming out, which really the knowledge actually didn't ship 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.320 the surface of that. So I do feel both we 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.000 need understanding of ourselves. We need that continuous reflection and 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.840 using knowledge is almost like yeah, going back and forth 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:41.040 right with that. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.520 Yeah, and realizing that the knowledge and the insight and 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:49.440 the skills developed and achieved through academic research is good. 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.560 Like there's no criticism here. But it's one part of 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.920 the human exper it's one part of knowledge, it's one 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:01.240 part of understanding. Like I've got friends who My best 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.800 mate in the world, he Vin. He left school at 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:11.480 year eleven, he worked forever, still working, He's a tradee. 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.760 You talk to him. I talked to him, and I'm like, 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.200 he's smarter than me, like about a lot of things. 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.840 That we talk about. He's smarter, and he can explain 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:28.720 to you things about human behavior and he doesn't realize 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.879 what he's doing, but his understanding of how people work essentially, 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.879 which we would call psychology or sociology or neuropsychology or whatever. 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.800 He'll explain things to you. You wouldn't even know what he's describing. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.119 But he's right, like he wouldn't even know the psychological 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.120 construct or the term or the label. But because he's 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.520 done so much stuff, met so many people, solved so 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.240 many problems, had so many experiences, and being open minded 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.959 and aware, his knowledge is fucking amazing. And it's like, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.119 but that's not held in high regard broadly speaking, where 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.760 you know, I think even with my undergrad and exercise science, 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.200 by the time I did that, I had already been 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.000 working for eighteen years in gyms and owning gyms because 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.760 I started at thirty six. And while it was interesting 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:24.040 for me other than anatomy and physiology and biomechanics and 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.359 some of the real science, I did not learn a lot, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.320 but I loved the experience. But I didn't go away 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.679 like I'll tell you a funny story. I don't think 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.960 I've ever told this, but I so, for example, one 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.480 of the subjects in my course was exercise programming, exercise programming, right, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:50.720 And it was apparent it doesn't matter who, but our 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:55.840 lecturer had never prescribed exercise in the real world. Right, 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.080 great guy, really good, but his real area of expertise 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.120 was kind of high level physiology and all of this. Right, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.800 So it'd kind of been lumped into teaching this subject. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.480 And at the end of the first lecture, he came 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.120 up to me and said, because that was my job, 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:16.120 was prescribing exercise for everyone, for athletes, for non athletes, 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.359 people with abilities and disabilities in the general public. And 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.119 I had probably at that stage, I'd probably written twenty 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.480 thousand programs by the time I sat in that lecture, right, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.000 I mean this is over nearly twenty years, right. And 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.919 I would write multiple programs a day and train my 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.760 you know. And he went, how did I go? Because 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:36.760 he came to me for approval, and I went, you 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.280 know whatever, And he said to me, if I could 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:43.560 organize with I don't know whoever the powers that be, 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.240 because I was already teaching that in vic fit courses. 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.439 I was teaching exercise programming at a higher level, right, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.720 so I ended up teaching one subject in my own 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:58.560 degree at university. That's crazy because I was more knowledgeable 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:00.720 than the people, like they were smarter than me and 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.679 more knowledgeable at everything else. But it's like this is 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.840 the thing, like, well, how do you know all that well? 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.000 Because I've been doing all that? Like what are you 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.639 teaching your Yes, yeah, this is good in a book, 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.880 but it doesn't fucking work in a gym. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.840 Like you, when you realize it doesn't work, you're like, okay, 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.720 so it doesn't work, then what do we do exactly? 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:25.359 And so it can be this beautiful synthesis of stuff 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.280 that you've learned academically or theoretically, or watched a video 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.040 or read something online. You don't need to be at UNI. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.320 You can learn lots, and then you can go try stuff, 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.240 and then you can see what is the relationship between 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.840 what I read or what I learned or that paper 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.439