Speaker 1: Good eight Champions. Dr Sam is back on board for
Speaker 1: the You Project. Craig Anthony Harper is my name, But
Speaker 1: do you know that? And it's fair to say, doctor Sam,
Speaker 1: that we just had a little micro coaching session before
Speaker 1: we started rolling, because you've got can I say, we
Speaker 1: won't say where or what, but you've got a reasonably
Speaker 1: big public speaking event coming up. And while I'm sure
Speaker 1: you'll kill it and crush it, there's a tiny little
Speaker 1: bit of nerves in there, which is healthy and good.
Speaker 1: Was it helpful? Was the little micro coaching session helpful?
Speaker 2: It really was, And I think being able to even
Speaker 2: babelize that right of going actually I'm feeling really nervous
Speaker 2: about it, and this is kind of where I feel
Speaker 2: like the gap isn't being able to look that through
Speaker 2: I think is really it is really helpful. It gets
Speaker 2: me to focus on the areas that I know I
Speaker 2: need to while feeling confident with the areas that I've
Speaker 2: got down packs. So it's good and.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, it's really important that we can
Speaker 1: verbalize stuff. And I think also from even when we
Speaker 1: have I'll call you an expert, oh, I call me
Speaker 1: because that sounds fucking arrogant. But let's say we've got
Speaker 1: two experts on a show right chatting, and then when
Speaker 1: one of the experts goes, oh well I fuck this
Speaker 1: up regularly, people are like, oh, well, you're more relatable
Speaker 1: and the fact that you are very good at your job,
Speaker 1: your world class, you're a leader in your space. But
Speaker 1: now we're doing something which is kind of adjacent but
Speaker 1: not the same as, which is working with a group
Speaker 1: of people educating people. But as I said to you, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you're not lecturing university students. I didn't say that actually,
Speaker 1: but it's very different. If you've got one hundred UNI students,
Speaker 1: you're in an academic setting, we're in a lecture theater.
Speaker 1: You kind of just got to give them the information
Speaker 1: you want it to be not too boring. But then
Speaker 1: when you're in a public speaking environment where you don't
Speaker 1: know who you're talking to. They could be educated academically
Speaker 1: or not. They could be there's you know, two hundred people,
Speaker 1: You've got two hundred personalities, two hundred backgrounds, two hundred
Speaker 1: lenses are looking at you through their own kind of filter,
Speaker 1: and so there is essentially as an experience for all
Speaker 1: of them, there's two hundred different versions of SAM. And
Speaker 1: so that's the thing is like trying to understand And
Speaker 1: I told you we were going to dive into my
Speaker 1: stuff today a little bit just because I want to
Speaker 1: get your feedback on stuff, but trying to understand the
Speaker 1: SAM experience for a people full of room, a room
Speaker 1: full of people. Put your teeth in a room full
Speaker 1: of people in real time. Like that's because one, you've
Speaker 1: got to get up there and do your presentation. You've
Speaker 1: got to not stammer and stutter. You've got to be
Speaker 1: at the very least kind of look okay and confidence
Speaker 1: and you know, but then at the same time you
Speaker 1: need to be present enough to go all right, I
Speaker 1: might chuck in a little activity here because I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm losing them, or you know whatever. It is
Speaker 1: that ability to be able to know your shit but
Speaker 1: also adapt in real time and be present in real
Speaker 1: time and not be the the very intelligent, educated person
Speaker 1: who gets up there and the room finds my numbingly boring.
Speaker 1: So it's a real it's like a multitasking kind of
Speaker 1: in the moment thing.
Speaker 2: Oh, I've just been to so many of those kind
Speaker 2: of presentations myself. You know, when I go to professional
Speaker 2: development that I'm sitting in this in a presentation and
Speaker 2: I'm looking at these slides and going this literally looks
Speaker 2: like copy and paste jobs from a jeneral article, and
Speaker 2: I could have read this journal article. Or they're just
Speaker 2: reading like literally academic like academica, you know kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: and there is no translating it to practice. There's no context,
Speaker 2: there's no stories, there's no deeper understanding than what I
Speaker 2: would have got from just reading that. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: I know what that feels like. It's almost like you
Speaker 2: kind of just check out mentally. No one presitation like that,
Speaker 2: so I know what it's on the other side. So
Speaker 2: I don't want to give that experience either.
Speaker 1: I think some people call this, which is just a
Speaker 1: bit of a play on words I'm writing it down,
Speaker 1: they call it edutainment, right. I like it entertainment because
Speaker 1: and you don't need to be a performer or a
Speaker 1: stand up comic or a world class storyteller, but a
Speaker 1: little bit of all of that. You know, it's because like, well,
Speaker 1: do you want them to like you? And I know
Speaker 1: that sounds like an insecure question, but will fucking of course,
Speaker 1: because I want them to say good things and have
Speaker 1: a good experience and learn and hopefully build a poor
Speaker 1: and connection. And some people think that if they're confident
Speaker 1: with their topic, they'll be a good speaker. And the
Speaker 1: amount of times probably you've seen that, and I've seen
Speaker 1: that where somebody who is literally more intelligent than me
Speaker 1: got more knowledge than me about a different area anyway,
Speaker 1: and they get up and I feel bad for them
Speaker 1: because the energy in the room just fucking dies a
Speaker 1: horrible death while they soldier on with their PowerPoint slides
Speaker 1: or worse. And I've seen this happen multiple times where
Speaker 1: their PowerPoint crashed and they could not recover. They did
Speaker 1: not know what to do because they couldn't just be
Speaker 1: there in real time just talking about their stuff because
Speaker 1: it's all choreographed. You know.
Speaker 2: That would even feel like more pressure too, right because
Speaker 2: they'd be like, I know exactly how it's meant to
Speaker 2: go from you know, slide one to ten, and then,
Speaker 2: like he said, something happens in side three and they
Speaker 2: just don't know how to come back from that because
Speaker 2: they're like only nowhere in this order, I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: what to do now, versus like you said, just feeling
Speaker 2: away kind of confident and yeah, in what you're doing,
Speaker 2: I would assume just within his yeah, And I.
Speaker 1: Think for anyone listening who is somewhat interesting, not necessarily
Speaker 1: being a public speaker, but you know, when you're trying
Speaker 1: to solve problems with people or help open kind of
Speaker 1: an awareness door for people, or to educate or inform
Speaker 1: people in a way which works for them, right, because
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest things, you know, there's
Speaker 1: an idea in psychology called the false consensus effect, where
Speaker 1: we assume that other people think like us. So I
Speaker 1: would in that case, I would get up and I
Speaker 1: would talk as I was talking to one hundred crags, right,
Speaker 1: But there's not one hundred craigs in the room. There's one.
Speaker 1: So if I talk as though I was talking to
Speaker 1: one hundred different versions of me, undoubtedly I will crash
Speaker 1: and burn. So to start from the assumption that are
Speaker 1: they're not like me, not better or worse, They're just
Speaker 1: not me. They're different and trying to ascertain you know.
Speaker 1: That's why as much as you can, you figure out
Speaker 1: who's going to be in the audience, so you can
Speaker 1: you might just go, oh, it's the general public that's cool,
Speaker 1: or these are all corporates, or these are all the
Speaker 1: lead athletes. All these are all blokes that I'm working
Speaker 1: with on a construction site, which I've done. All these
Speaker 1: are all blokes that I'm working with in a prison,
Speaker 1: which I've done, or I've done multiple gigs. At the
Speaker 1: Royal Australian College of Surgeons Annual Conference, I go, well,
Speaker 1: everyone in the room except me is a surgeon, right,
Speaker 1: so that gives you certain context. Right, So I'm not
Speaker 1: going to talk to the room full of surgeons like
Speaker 1: a room full of whatever our trade is not because
Speaker 1: one's better or worse, but they just don't typically think
Speaker 1: and talk and solve problems the same. So I'm always like,
Speaker 1: who's my audience? What am I talking about? What are
Speaker 1: the key things I want to get across? But more importantly,
Speaker 1: how do I build trust, respect and rapport quickly and
Speaker 1: give them something that is going to be helpful? Like,
Speaker 1: just really is this helpful? Because so much shit is
Speaker 1: not helpful. It's just fucking noise.
Speaker 2: It's noise, and it's just an information overload. And they
Speaker 2: leave and they're like I don't feel any better off,
Speaker 2: Like I don't have a next step. I don't have
Speaker 2: this insight that I can actually translate to practice or yeah,
Speaker 2: so I agree, you don't want to you don't want
Speaker 2: to give a talk like that where people don't leave inspired,
Speaker 2: maybe feel a bit challenge, but also you know, has
Speaker 2: that next step bit to it as well.
Speaker 1: And there's another I guess another component that people are
Speaker 1: aware of and think about but then don't necessarily have
Speaker 1: a strategy, which is the fear and the anxiety and
Speaker 1: the nerves. Yeah, and it's like, oh, well, and this
Speaker 1: is a well worn trope here at the at the
Speaker 1: U projects, I apologize for my listeners, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: At least five hundred times in my life, probably a thousand,
Speaker 1: I've been asked by people how do I overcome my
Speaker 1: fear of public speaking? And the answer is very unexciting
Speaker 1: because the answer is by public speaking. Yep. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, how do I get better at doing arm
Speaker 1: bars in jiu jitsu by doing arm bars in jiu jitsu?
Speaker 1: How do I get better at tennis because I'm shit?
Speaker 1: By playing tennis? So you know, we also spoke before
Speaker 1: about sometimes the best, the most advantageous and productive and
Speaker 1: fruitful kind of thing that you can do for your
Speaker 1: growth and your development and for you to build a
Speaker 1: brand and competence in this field and space is a
Speaker 1: thing that you don't fucking want to do because it's
Speaker 1: hard and.
Speaker 2: Horrible, and yet that is the way through, right, The
Speaker 2: obstacle is a way. That's Ryan Holiday's book. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm starting with them, yeah, which is for me just
Speaker 2: feels like such a concept that I especially coming from
Speaker 2: an academic background. You know, we try and read and
Speaker 2: prepare and get this knowledge and then we're going to
Speaker 2: be ready, right. And I think sometimes even a mental
Speaker 2: health system still speaks like this. It's like, go to
Speaker 2: therapy and let's just learn more skills and war coping strategies,
Speaker 2: and no one talks about the actual thing that helps,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to anxiety, is doing the thing,
Speaker 2: experiencing life. It's the experiences that actually helps us, not
Speaker 2: the preparation in our heads for it. And I think
Speaker 2: about that with public speaking. A lot of the time
Speaker 2: people are like, let me just get confident first, let
Speaker 2: me get all this fear out of the way, and
Speaker 2: then I will start being a public speaker, rather than
Speaker 2: going actually, I'm going to feel the fear and I'm
Speaker 2: going to do it anyway, this doesn't actually have to change,
Speaker 2: but through the process of showing up even amongst this,
Speaker 2: it will change. That is how it does, right when
Speaker 2: you have new experiences and you're able to overcome.
Speaker 1: In Yeah, this seems like a self centered, egotistical question,
Speaker 1: but it is at the core of my research. Do
Speaker 1: you ever think about what it's like being around you
Speaker 1: for the rest of the world, like on this podcast,
Speaker 1: with your kids, with your friends, with your peers, for
Speaker 1: your patients, for the parents that you do you ever
Speaker 1: think what is the Sam Casey experience like for other people?
Speaker 1: And does that matter? And why does that matter? And
Speaker 1: maybe what cold or should I do with that awareness.
Speaker 2: That's really good, that's really good question, because you know,
Speaker 2: given my academic background leaving high school quite early on,
Speaker 2: I was never the smart one, is never the one
Speaker 2: acing school. I was failing, right, So I never had
Speaker 2: that identity of being that, but I definitely saw that
Speaker 2: with a lot of people. And then I obviously know
Speaker 2: what the title doctor holes in society, So I think,
Speaker 2: if anything, I'm probably really quite conscious of that, probably
Speaker 2: since getting the PhD, not so much the degrees, but
Speaker 2: when I got my PhD, I was like whoa. People
Speaker 2: are going to see me a certain way and almost
Speaker 2: like put me on a pedestal in potentially good ways,
Speaker 2: but not so great ways too. And I think that
Speaker 2: power in balance I've become very conscious of because you know,
Speaker 2: people asking for advices and just asking someone for advice,
Speaker 2: you know, they're like, you're a doctor, so what you
Speaker 2: say is like, and I'm having to constantly, especially as
Speaker 2: a therapism, having to constantly remind them you're an expert
Speaker 2: in your life. I've not lived your life before. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm to be a mayor. I'm supposed to be, you know,
Speaker 2: walking alongside you on this journey. Yes, I may have
Speaker 2: expertise in all these human behavior and psychology and all
Speaker 2: of those things, but you have expertise on yourself and
Speaker 2: together that we're on this journey rather than them kind
Speaker 2: of giving all the decision making to me. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I do think about that a lot, and I think
Speaker 2: it can help in ways thinking about it, because it then,
Speaker 2: you know, gets me to be conscious of the power dynamics,
Speaker 2: for example. But on another token, I think sometimes it
Speaker 2: also could be something that they're working through too, And
Speaker 2: I think the more I can share maybe my journey
Speaker 2: about how I take radical responsibility for my life and
Speaker 2: I don't believe there is any expert out there that
Speaker 2: knows me as well as myself. It means I can
Speaker 2: go to people for advice, so I can get great advice,
Speaker 2: but ultimately, right I hold the decision making for my life.
Speaker 2: I have to go do the hard thing. You can
Speaker 2: sit and talk to me for hours about public speaking,
Speaker 2: giving me all the tips, but at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, I have to drive myself out of bed
Speaker 2: that day and to put it on clothes and get
Speaker 2: on that stage.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So I think the more I hope that I can
Speaker 2: share that journey for myself, you know, of being responsible
Speaker 2: for my life, the more hopefully others will yeah, take
Speaker 2: the experts off the pedestal and start taking responsibility for
Speaker 2: their yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Whether or not it's getting on stage or doing something else.
Speaker 1: I think that kind of thinking applies. And also one
Speaker 1: of the you know, because I'm very late to that. Well.
Speaker 1: I did my undergrad degree a long time ago in
Speaker 1: exi science, but I'm late to the game, and you know,
Speaker 1: so for me, academia is like a curious wonderland of
Speaker 1: brilliance and bullshit. I'm like Some of it's fucking amazing.
Speaker 1: Some of it I'm like, oh, this is I won't
Speaker 1: use the word that I want to use, but this
Speaker 1: is so not brilliant. This is like, oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: there is a mix of genius and stupidity in the
Speaker 1: same room. Like you're like, how fucking hard can you
Speaker 1: make this one thing? Like even sometimes meetings at university,
Speaker 1: I'm like, ah, I could make this meeting ten minutes,
Speaker 1: not an hour and a half. We could get everything done.
Speaker 1: Most of what was said in there was just fucking
Speaker 1: people just rambling or maybe twenty minutes, you know. And
Speaker 1: of course then there are other things where I'm in
Speaker 1: a conversation and I'm a fucking idiot because I don't
Speaker 1: know what they know, right, So but I think I
Speaker 1: think the ability or the willingness maybe to go like
Speaker 1: if all my knowledge is sounds funny, but a box
Speaker 1: of tic TACs, right, that's all my knowledge. That's all
Speaker 1: as a box of tic TACs. All of those tic
Speaker 1: TACs except for one at the bottom, has come through life,
Speaker 1: not through research or study or academia. Like I think
Speaker 1: we really in our culture overestimate the value of academia
Speaker 1: as an attribute I think it's I think it's valuable.
Speaker 1: Don't don't misquote me or misunderstanding I think it's valuable.
Speaker 1: I think it's good. But when I try to explain
Speaker 1: to people, they go, oh, so you'll be a doctor
Speaker 1: of psychology. I go, well, technically, yes, but if psychology
Speaker 1: is an ocean, I spent six years studying a drop
Speaker 1: of water in that ocean of information and knowledge and research.
Speaker 1: So if we wanted to be really accurate, I will
Speaker 1: have a doctorate in a meta perception and meta accuracy,
Speaker 1: which almost nobody knows what it is. And that's cool.
Speaker 1: But I could then perhaps be loosely termed an expert
Speaker 1: in that. But psychology is so big, But that's true.
Speaker 1: With a lot of degrees. You come out and you're
Speaker 1: a you're a doctor of engineering, or you're a doctor
Speaker 1: of business or you know. But I know the fuck
Speaker 1: ten people with pH ds in business who have never
Speaker 1: owned a business. Yes, like they have a doctor in business,
Speaker 1: but they've never owned a business. I might go talk
Speaker 1: to a successful business owner.
Speaker 2: First, Yeah, you're right, it is such a Oh it is,
Speaker 2: it's so important, But then it also so with it.
Speaker 2: Think about the knowledge and how much it actually influences us.
Speaker 2: When you know, when you look at the field of psychology,
Speaker 2: a lot of the time people do think of psychology
Speaker 2: is only the DSM and only you know, diagnostic stuff,
Speaker 2: and that's really not a lot of the core and
Speaker 2: the foundational stuff of psychology. You know, it's how we
Speaker 2: experience life and meaning making and all of these subjective experiences.
Speaker 2: And then what you said there around the entrepreneur, it's
Speaker 2: the experience that they've learned, writing the lessons and the
Speaker 2: wisdom that comes from that, which was knowledge. There's no
Speaker 2: feedback loop, like we're getting knowledge, but we're not really
Speaker 2: being able to reflect on how we're processing it and
Speaker 2: how that's coming out. And my actual PhD research found this,
Speaker 2: and I was structed with it too, because when we
Speaker 2: were looking at how does someone get trained and working
Speaker 2: with different cultures for example, it's like, let's get more
Speaker 2: knowledge around this. And what we found is no matter
Speaker 2: for PhD level therapists, to graduate therapists, it wasn't knowledge
Speaker 2: that was coming out in their sessions. It was actually
Speaker 2: their own callas, their own worldviews, their own but their
Speaker 2: own stuff. Yes, and yet they don't I noticed in
Speaker 2: social work, we very much do we do a lot
Speaker 2: of critical reflection, but I find in psychology they don't
Speaker 2: really have much space for that because we're meant to
Speaker 2: be this blank slate. And so the problem was they
Speaker 2: were like, oh, no, I'm being super professional. My degree
Speaker 2: is the only thing I'm using when I'm working with
Speaker 2: this family. But actually it was their own views about
Speaker 2: what a mum should do and what a dad should do,
Speaker 2: and what a child should do and all of these
Speaker 2: things coming out, which really the knowledge actually didn't ship
Speaker 2: the surface of that. So I do feel both we
Speaker 2: need understanding of ourselves. We need that continuous reflection and
Speaker 2: using knowledge is almost like yeah, going back and forth
Speaker 2: right with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and realizing that the knowledge and the insight and
Speaker 1: the skills developed and achieved through academic research is good.
Speaker 1: Like there's no criticism here. But it's one part of
Speaker 1: the human exper it's one part of knowledge, it's one
Speaker 1: part of understanding. Like I've got friends who My best
Speaker 1: mate in the world, he Vin. He left school at
Speaker 1: year eleven, he worked forever, still working, He's a tradee.
Speaker 1: You talk to him. I talked to him, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: he's smarter than me, like about a lot of things.
Speaker 1: That we talk about. He's smarter, and he can explain
Speaker 1: to you things about human behavior and he doesn't realize
Speaker 1: what he's doing, but his understanding of how people work essentially,
Speaker 1: which we would call psychology or sociology or neuropsychology or whatever.
Speaker 1: He'll explain things to you. You wouldn't even know what he's describing.
Speaker 1: But he's right, like he wouldn't even know the psychological
Speaker 1: construct or the term or the label. But because he's
Speaker 1: done so much stuff, met so many people, solved so
Speaker 1: many problems, had so many experiences, and being open minded
Speaker 1: and aware, his knowledge is fucking amazing. And it's like,
Speaker 1: but that's not held in high regard broadly speaking, where
Speaker 1: you know, I think even with my undergrad and exercise science,
Speaker 1: by the time I did that, I had already been
Speaker 1: working for eighteen years in gyms and owning gyms because
Speaker 1: I started at thirty six. And while it was interesting
Speaker 1: for me other than anatomy and physiology and biomechanics and
Speaker 1: some of the real science, I did not learn a lot,
Speaker 1: but I loved the experience. But I didn't go away
Speaker 1: like I'll tell you a funny story. I don't think
Speaker 1: I've ever told this, but I so, for example, one
Speaker 1: of the subjects in my course was exercise programming, exercise programming, right,
Speaker 1: And it was apparent it doesn't matter who, but our
Speaker 1: lecturer had never prescribed exercise in the real world. Right,
Speaker 1: great guy, really good, but his real area of expertise
Speaker 1: was kind of high level physiology and all of this. Right,
Speaker 1: So it'd kind of been lumped into teaching this subject.
Speaker 1: And at the end of the first lecture, he came
Speaker 1: up to me and said, because that was my job,
Speaker 1: was prescribing exercise for everyone, for athletes, for non athletes,
Speaker 1: people with abilities and disabilities in the general public. And
Speaker 1: I had probably at that stage, I'd probably written twenty
Speaker 1: thousand programs by the time I sat in that lecture, right,
Speaker 1: I mean this is over nearly twenty years, right. And
Speaker 1: I would write multiple programs a day and train my
Speaker 1: you know. And he went, how did I go? Because
Speaker 1: he came to me for approval, and I went, you
Speaker 1: know whatever, And he said to me, if I could
Speaker 1: organize with I don't know whoever the powers that be,
Speaker 1: because I was already teaching that in vic fit courses.
Speaker 1: I was teaching exercise programming at a higher level, right,
Speaker 1: so I ended up teaching one subject in my own
Speaker 1: degree at university. That's crazy because I was more knowledgeable
Speaker 1: than the people, like they were smarter than me and
Speaker 1: more knowledgeable at everything else. But it's like this is
Speaker 1: the thing, like, well, how do you know all that well?
Speaker 1: Because I've been doing all that? Like what are you
Speaker 1: teaching your Yes, yeah, this is good in a book,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't fucking work in a gym.
Speaker 2: Like you, when you realize it doesn't work, you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: so it doesn't work, then what do we do exactly?
Speaker 1: And so it can be this beautiful synthesis of stuff
Speaker 1: that you've learned academically or theoretically, or watched a video
Speaker 1: or read something online. You don't need to be at UNI.
Speaker 1: You can learn lots, and then you can go try stuff,
Speaker 1: and then you can see what is the relationship between
Speaker 1: what I read or what I learned or that paper
Speaker 1: that I read, and when I tried to put that
Speaker 1: into practice, what was the real world experience and outcome?
Speaker 1: And then you kind of arrive at something which is
Speaker 1: close to like a bigger truth or a more you know,
Speaker 1: a more what's the word, like like a fuller version
Speaker 1: of you know other than this, and it's the same.
Speaker 1: If I only had experience in the field, I don't
Speaker 1: think I would be well. I definitely wouldn't be as
Speaker 1: good or as knowledgeable or perhaps capable as I am,
Speaker 1: because I've also got a fair bit of academic stuff
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Why both is so powerful? You need both? I feel
Speaker 2: like it if you need to go with the knowledge
Speaker 2: and then you and then you have the experience, and
Speaker 2: then you go back to the knowledge, and then you
Speaker 2: go back to the you need to keep doing both.
Speaker 1: That's right. And I say to people, you do not
Speaker 1: need to be a scientist to be scientific, Like what
Speaker 1: did you do? What was your protocol? What was your aim?
Speaker 1: Like when you started, what did you want to achieve?
Speaker 1: Do be create change? What was the intention? And then
Speaker 1: what did you do? What's the protocol? Right? And then
Speaker 1: what were your results? What happened? And what's your interpretation
Speaker 1: of the results? Right? That's science. You don't need to
Speaker 1: go to you you don't need to go to you
Speaker 1: need to do that.
Speaker 2: I think that is just such a good way approaching
Speaker 2: life too, being experimented, like you've never lived this life before,
Speaker 2: and you know based on what age and what circumstanture
Speaker 2: and you've not lived that phase of your life that season,
Speaker 2: and so being able to be an again a researcher
Speaker 2: experiment with your life, it just takes a pressure off
Speaker 2: because it goes beyond I need to get this right
Speaker 2: and this needs to be perfect too. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to try this and see what works for me, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to just continuously be refined and refining, reassessing,
Speaker 2: readjusting as they need to. But it's always going to
Speaker 2: be this process of doing that, and I think that's
Speaker 2: a really good way of approaching. I think you know
Speaker 2: when people come to therapy and they're like, just give
Speaker 2: me the is it yoga, like, is it breathwork? Like,
Speaker 2: give me the one thing that's going to change at all?
Speaker 2: And you can't give that right Based on what someone
Speaker 2: is going through. They might need little bits of everything,
Speaker 2: but you have to start somewhere and you have to
Speaker 2: be able to be willing to get that feedback.
Speaker 1: Yes, And it is very hard to be objective about
Speaker 1: what's happening in your life because your experience of your
Speaker 1: life is subjective. But what is objective is results. Yep, Okay,
Speaker 1: I followed this program. Cool, what happened, What happened at
Speaker 1: the end of the four weeks or the six or
Speaker 1: the eight weeks. Like I always say to people or
Speaker 1: ask people, what is your life telling you? Because you
Speaker 1: are always producing results, always producing results, So what's the data?
Speaker 1: So when you talk to your kid this way and
Speaker 1: you've got this challenge that you're working through in the
Speaker 1: last ten times you approached it that way, what do
Speaker 1: you now know? What do you know that you didn't
Speaker 1: know before you started those ten interactions? Like what is now?
Speaker 1: That's not necessarily the totality, but it's somewhat indicative. It's
Speaker 1: like if I have a coffee, Like I'm having a
Speaker 1: coffee now. I just finished. It's two forty nine. If
Speaker 1: I had a coffee at six forty nine, that would
Speaker 1: really fuck me up. I've had two coffees today, but
Speaker 1: my results tell me my outcomes tell me three coffees
Speaker 1: a day. No good for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's the immediate feedback, right. What about a
Speaker 2: situation like someone leaving their job because they're wanting to
Speaker 2: pursue an entrepreneuri like you know, Jenny, what about if
Speaker 2: someone goes You've got no job now? So if you
Speaker 2: look at that in terms of what is your life
Speaker 2: telling you. It could look like a failure, right, but
Speaker 2: patch we know that this person could be wildly successful
Speaker 2: six months down the track. So how do you reckon?
Speaker 2: How do you get that feedback from your life without?
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a standalone thing that happened amongst a
Speaker 1: million things that will happen to you. Yeah, and over
Speaker 1: the totality of your life. I've failed at many things,
Speaker 1: many many things. I've done speaking gigs that were horrible,
Speaker 1: of run programs that didn't work. I've you know, I
Speaker 1: could give you a list, you know, like we were
Speaker 1: talking before we're on air about how many episodes of
Speaker 1: the You Project I did before it worked or before
Speaker 1: it became commercially viable. Well, probably, if I had any
Speaker 1: common sense, I would have given up an episode fucking
Speaker 1: five hundred because people would go cray for Fox's sake.
Speaker 1: Your results are telling you don't do this, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: my results so far. But if this is how I thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: so I'm five hundred episodes in, I'm still not making money.
Speaker 1: But what I know is a lot. I have learned
Speaker 1: so much about podcasting, about interviewing, about editing, about what
Speaker 1: people want and don't want, about my multiple flaws. You
Speaker 1: talk too much, you talk over the top of people,
Speaker 1: you do I still do some of that, right, But
Speaker 1: it's even though you're not producing, because I think, of
Speaker 1: course we want to make money. Yeah, we want a
Speaker 1: job where we want to make money. But if I said,
Speaker 1: but also, do you want to work in an environment
Speaker 1: that you love, well I do. Do you want to
Speaker 1: be around people that value and respect you? Yeah? I do.
Speaker 1: Do you want to get out of bed and look
Speaker 1: forward to going work? Well yeah I do. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not just about do, It's about a multitude of things.
Speaker 2: And all measurements of success is what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yes, and also guess what like you're going to And again,
Speaker 1: even a failure, well that's an individual interpretation. You could
Speaker 1: just go didn't work out here. You're not blaming them,
Speaker 1: You're not blaming you. You're just going I'm not here anymore. Cool.
Speaker 1: So you can't undo that. You can't control what happened
Speaker 1: this morning. You can't control that, can't change it. All
Speaker 1: you can do is go where am I now? And
Speaker 1: all of this, of course is theoretical and easier said
Speaker 1: than done. All of it, But ultimately you go what
Speaker 1: is in my control and what is not? And how
Speaker 1: do I want to be and who do I want
Speaker 1: to be? And this is all very as everyone's gone
Speaker 1: rolling their eyes, paps. I understand this is way easier
Speaker 1: said than done, But the truth is, and I've never
Speaker 1: had to deal with this before, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to bang on about it too much, but right now
Speaker 1: my parents are both pretty unwell, and I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I can't magic them into well, and I can't pretend.
Speaker 1: I don't want to pretend that it's great when it's not.
Speaker 1: And by the way, they're okay everyone, They're in a
Speaker 1: bit of a holding pattern, so it's finest. But there's
Speaker 1: just so many things that are emotional. There are so
Speaker 1: many things that are out of your control. There are
Speaker 1: so many things that are unfair, that are uncertain, that
Speaker 1: are not nice. There are so many things that are
Speaker 1: painful and potentially really fucking painful. But in the middle
Speaker 1: of all of that, you're like, well, yeah, this is life, Craig,
Speaker 1: this is life, Sam, this is what happens like. Life
Speaker 1: is not some conscious being that cares about your feelings
Speaker 1: in the moment. Life is just a series of events
Speaker 1: and people and outcomes good and bad, and challenges and
Speaker 1: joy and pain and happiness and tears. That's as I
Speaker 1: see it, as I experience, it's just the totality of
Speaker 1: all of that. And so it's really like, you'll come
Speaker 1: out of your gig next week. I'm sure you'll do
Speaker 1: a good job. But if I was coaching you, go,
Speaker 1: all right, let's the day after. Let's debrief. Tell me
Speaker 1: about the gia. What did you do well? What did
Speaker 1: you do? What didn't you do well? And what was
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle, and what did you learn? And
Speaker 1: then so we take that experience. We don't call it
Speaker 1: anything other than an experience. Yeah, you can call it
Speaker 1: whatever you want if you want, but I would go, So,
Speaker 1: you had an experience, you did a thing. Where are
Speaker 1: we at? What was good? What wasn't blah blah? What
Speaker 1: would you do different next time? What did you learn?
Speaker 1: How was the you know there are now when we
Speaker 1: put down the oh, I'm shit, I'm fucked, I'm no
Speaker 1: good at that. You know, that's all emotional, and that's understandable,
Speaker 1: but as best we can, like moving through life, being
Speaker 1: controlled by emotion is an awesome way to have a
Speaker 1: terrible life. Yeah, we want to feel the feeling, acknowledge
Speaker 1: the emotion, but also try to be logical and strategic. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're not pretending oh I was great. We're going, yeah,
Speaker 1: I could have done better? Cool? What would you do different?
Speaker 1: You know? So it's that nav gating the complexity and
Speaker 1: the nuance of a myriad of intersecting factors and variable
Speaker 1: that make up doctor Sam Casey's life and then figuring out, well,
Speaker 1: this is you know, even how old are you again?
Speaker 1: Thirty three or something stupid thirty five? You go, I'm
Speaker 1: thirty five. Realistically, I've probably got another thirty five years
Speaker 1: of work if I want less, if I want more,
Speaker 1: who knows. But then I would go, Okay, so you've
Speaker 1: been working for probably graduated at whatever you've been working,
Speaker 1: because I know you started working early, but you've probably
Speaker 1: been working for twenty years issue of your life. But
Speaker 1: you've probably got another forty if you want. So you go,
Speaker 1: do I want to be doing a version of this
Speaker 1: in five years?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do? But better? Or no, I don't I want
Speaker 1: to be doing that? Cool. Well, let's maybe let's timeline
Speaker 1: that a little bit, and course things will change because
Speaker 1: the world's dynamic, and we are somewhat rigid and fixed.
Speaker 1: So we need to be less rigid and fixed and
Speaker 1: more dynamic and more adaptable. But that's that, you know.
Speaker 1: That's why I literally called this show that you project
Speaker 1: because I feel like our life is kind of a
Speaker 1: project or even a study, and like you're the participant
Speaker 1: and you're the researcher. Yeap on your project. I love that.
Speaker 2: And all of what you said actually really aligns with
Speaker 2: we call acceptance and commitment therapy ACT. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you're aware. Yeah, what you're saying right that even
Speaker 2: you know sometimes the other ways of going in and we
Speaker 2: need to reduce that suffering, We need to reduce the symptoms.
Speaker 2: And it's like, actually, what if we just experience accepts
Speaker 2: that that's part of life and continue to go do
Speaker 2: the thing, continue to work towards our values. Like you said,
Speaker 2: who do I want to be in this moment? How
Speaker 2: do I want to be in this moment? And I
Speaker 2: really like that. I feel like that You're not then
Speaker 2: going I'm going to wait for the perfect conditions and
Speaker 2: then I'm going to go do the thing. It's I'm
Speaker 2: going to make this work in the most imperfect conditions,
Speaker 2: because I know if I can do it.
Speaker 1: In that, I can do it.
Speaker 2: And that's how much the exercise for me, especially like
Speaker 2: I've been trying since six weeks postpardoned with my son,
Speaker 2: when I was like, I need to get into fitness.
Speaker 2: And if you could imagine having a little baby right,
Speaker 2: things don't go to plan and breastfeeding them up all
Speaker 2: hours of the night, all kinds of things. But rather
Speaker 2: than going, it's either an hour I work out at
Speaker 2: the gym or nothing. I thought of it like a spectrum,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, every day I'm going to show up
Speaker 2: for movement no matter what. Okay, I'm showing up. And
Speaker 2: that could be like a ten minute, you know, body
Speaker 2: weight session on my on my little mat while while
Speaker 2: my baby's just there right at home, or it could
Speaker 2: be in the gym for an hour and I get
Speaker 2: you know, I'm lifting heavy weights, but either way, I'm
Speaker 2: doing it. And I felt like this is what sustained
Speaker 2: me pretty much throughout Again, what for the last ten
Speaker 2: years where it doesn't look perfect. I have you know,
Speaker 2: workouts that last you know, twenty minutes and it's not
Speaker 2: that great. And I have workouts at last year and
Speaker 2: a half and I'm like, this is amazing. But I
Speaker 2: show up every day in some capacity for movement because
Speaker 2: I do that for my mental health as well as
Speaker 2: my physical health, and it's been able to do it
Speaker 2: in the most imperfect conditions. I feel like if I
Speaker 2: got that down paths, then it's just the resistant goes versus.
Speaker 2: I hear a lot of people say I'm going to
Speaker 2: go do that one hundred percent. I'm doing that. But
Speaker 2: when this happens, when I'm closer to a gym, you know,
Speaker 2: the life's a bit busy right now. When I come
Speaker 2: back for my holiday, I'm going to start fresh. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, if you can't start today, it's not going
Speaker 2: to be any easier after that holiday. If you can't
Speaker 2: pull out them out for ten minutes and do some
Speaker 2: stretches today this afternoon, I can assure you these barriers
Speaker 2: in your head, the stories in your head that you're
Speaker 2: saying about this is not going to go after this holiday.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that really getting to know ourself
Speaker 2: talk and ourself stories is so powerful when overcoming these things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've say to people all the time, start before
Speaker 1: you're ready, because everybody's got a when I'm ready story
Speaker 1: and then they look up and they're like, fuck, now
Speaker 1: I'm forty five. Yeah, and the when I'm ready story
Speaker 1: has been on loop since they were twenty two.
Speaker 2: And you know what I find as well as for parents,
Speaker 2: it becomes an avoidance. So you know, for parents, parenthood
Speaker 2: becomes a way that we can say, oh, my kid's
Speaker 2: a little right now. So when they're older, older the thing,
Speaker 2: you know, I've really got to prioritize them right now.
Speaker 2: And it's almost like motherhood is a perfect conditions for avoidance.
Speaker 2: And what I've noticed with these women, right they because
Speaker 2: they have their moms of babies to then todd list,
Speaker 2: then school aged yis the teenagers and their grandparents and
Speaker 2: they you know throughout that right it may take them
Speaker 2: to get to that point to go, Actually, this is
Speaker 2: a pattern. It's really got nothing to do with my
Speaker 2: excel and everything to do with this story that I'm saying,
Speaker 2: this is hard, and I'm trying to avoid the hard
Speaker 2: rather than going I value my kids and I want
Speaker 2: to be present in their life and I want to
Speaker 2: have time with them, but this is something else I value,
Speaker 2: and so how do I make this coexist? Again? Not
Speaker 2: trying to get this perfect balance. But just going, how
Speaker 2: do these two values of mine exist in my world?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I love that. I had a chat with some
Speaker 1: friends of mine a couple of months ago and they
Speaker 1: had they've got three kids, and they had a relatively
Speaker 1: new kid and the wife who's lovely. She was talking
Speaker 1: to me about. I think she's got I think the
Speaker 1: like a newish born maybe six months and maybe a
Speaker 1: two and maybe a four, like still all at home
Speaker 1: and fucking chaos, right, and it is. It's of course,
Speaker 1: that's hard, harder than I can imagine because I'm just
Speaker 1: a dumb bloke, so I don't try to understand what
Speaker 1: that's like. But she said to me something like I
Speaker 1: need a help, or I need an idea, or I
Speaker 1: need something. She calls me harps, harps, just anything, and
Speaker 1: I go, I will give you one. By the way,
Speaker 1: this is not an answer. This is just a single idea,
Speaker 1: a single experiment that I want you to do. But
Speaker 1: you have to do it. Don't go oh, I started,
Speaker 1: and otherwise I'm not going to talk to you. She goes,
Speaker 1: I promise you, I will do it. And I said, so.
Speaker 1: She lives in a two story house, and I said Okay,
Speaker 1: So for the next thirty days, three times a day,
Speaker 1: I want you to walk the stairs in your house
Speaker 1: for five minutes, right, five minutes, So there's one four
Speaker 1: hundred and forty minutes in a day. And yes, you're
Speaker 1: doing stuff, feeding kids, sending kids to playgroup or whatever
Speaker 1: it is, and you're sleeping, and you're you're doing all
Speaker 1: the things that a busy mum and a busy woman does.
Speaker 1: I get it. But of the fourteen forty, I want
Speaker 1: you to invest fifteen, right, And all she did was
Speaker 1: and I saw it wasn't thirty days later, but it
Speaker 1: was probably a month and a half two months later.
Speaker 1: And I said, how did you go? And this is
Speaker 1: not a word of a lie. She lost three and
Speaker 1: a half kilos. She didn't change your diet, She didn't.
Speaker 1: She lost three and a half kilos. She goes, my
Speaker 1: ass and my legs are fucking fantastic. Right, that's what
Speaker 1: she's did. She goes, and the husband kind of goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so she toned her bum and legs. She
Speaker 1: lost weight body weight, which means she probably actually built
Speaker 1: some muscle and lost more than three and a half
Speaker 1: kilos of fat paw as her brain worked better. She
Speaker 1: was so much happier. And I said, what are you
Speaker 1: doing now? She goes, I'm doing three times ten. So
Speaker 1: she was now doing and I said great, and she goes,
Speaker 1: what's next? And then I just chucked her in three
Speaker 1: body weight exercises. And so she's still not going to
Speaker 1: a gym, she still has no equipment, but she's doing
Speaker 1: the thing consistently, the thing that was boring and wasn't
Speaker 1: fun and wasn't convenient. All of a sudden, now she
Speaker 1: gets excited about it because she's committed and she's getting results. Now.
Speaker 1: You don't need a degree, you don't need a membership,
Speaker 1: you don't you know. It's like, if we want to
Speaker 1: find a way to do something, will that get her
Speaker 1: into the Olympics? No? Will that move the needle on
Speaker 1: a psychology, emotion, physiology, confidence, you know, happiness, emotions like
Speaker 1: all of that. It's moving the needle. And she's like,
Speaker 1: she goes, I'm excited. I'm excited. So that's that when
Speaker 1: we find want to find a way to do it,
Speaker 1: we'll find a way to do it, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think that it's understandable that we put things on hold,
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I've said
Speaker 1: this a few times, so I don't want to be
Speaker 1: too repetitive, but it's true. So a friend of mine
Speaker 1: who's been on the show, his name's Joel Sardi. He
Speaker 1: was in the Australian Army soldier, served overseas frontline. All
Speaker 1: of that came back to Australia. He was out at
Speaker 1: I think it was an event, a party or something
Speaker 1: fell down some stairs. Became a quadriplegic.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Right, So he instantly became a quadriplegic. So he couldn't
Speaker 1: So from that moment that was his life. It's not
Speaker 1: say he's not improving or he's not you know, but
Speaker 1: he couldn't go I don't want to do quadriplegia now,
Speaker 1: I'll do it in six months. I'm busy now, Like
Speaker 1: there are things that happen in our life where we
Speaker 1: do not have the option of not doing it now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we just have to do it now because there is
Speaker 1: no option. But the problem is when we go I
Speaker 1: want to get in shape, but here are my fifteen reasons. Well,
Speaker 1: you can do it, but it's almost like we.
Speaker 2: Have to create the conditions for this urgency right, but
Speaker 2: it does. That's non negotiable.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. That's the problem. We want, we kind
Speaker 1: of want to do it. But imagine if you didn't
Speaker 1: have an option. It's like imagine if oh, you had
Speaker 1: to walk those steps three times a day for five minutes,
Speaker 1: there is no option. Well, we would just do it.
Speaker 1: We'd probably bitch and Moana not like it, and that's okay,
Speaker 1: so would I probably, I'm not judging, but yeah. But
Speaker 1: the thing is when we have that internal shift of
Speaker 1: this is a thing that I need to do, not
Speaker 1: a thing that I'll do when all the planets are
Speaker 1: aligned and the kids are here and I'm there and
Speaker 1: you know, then we go, oh, I'm just doing it,
Speaker 1: and now I'm doing it. And then within a few months,
Speaker 1: like with this lady, this is now a thing that
Speaker 1: I enjoy. This has now become part of my lifestyle.
Speaker 1: This is now intertwined with my subconscious. This is just
Speaker 1: what I do. This is not me being amazing, This
Speaker 1: is me being normal. So the idea, and I mean
Speaker 1: you're very well versed in this, but the idea of
Speaker 1: trying to manage your mind, fuck how hard is that?
Speaker 2: It is? On a daily basis, all day, every day.
Speaker 2: It is that it's almost like that self leadership, right,
Speaker 2: trying to manage your mind, trying to know when you
Speaker 2: need more compassion for yourself, trying to know when you
Speaker 2: need more accountability for yourself. And you know that in
Speaker 2: a talk, isn't being really critical? Like all of these
Speaker 2: things are coming through while we're experiencing life. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's again one of the most important things,
Speaker 2: because we're the ones making decisions and choices in our
Speaker 2: days right every day. Yes, and so many people say
Speaker 2: I need to make all these changes, but like I'm
Speaker 2: on a wait list for therapy. Once I get into therapy,
Speaker 2: it's going to be better. And it's like, well, that's
Speaker 2: one session a week. You're still with yourself for the
Speaker 2: rest of the time, and you're still having to make
Speaker 2: decisions right for what's it would be good for you.
Speaker 2: These are things that we should be doing every day,
Speaker 2: looking at how we're spending our time, looking at what
Speaker 2: we're putting in our bodies, in our minds, all of
Speaker 2: those things. So that's what really impacts them into health,
Speaker 2: not as a therapist.
Speaker 1: And to be aware of our to try to be
Speaker 1: aware or at least open to how our mind works
Speaker 1: meant a cognition to think about how we think and
Speaker 1: why we think the way that we do. And that's
Speaker 1: the way that I think work? Or is it more
Speaker 1: do I self sabotage? Do I get in my own way?
Speaker 1: Are my beliefs which are the contents of my mind?
Speaker 1: Are my beliefs a form of self limitation or self empowerment?
Speaker 1: Why do I believe this thing? Did I choose this thing?
Speaker 1: Or is this belief a byproduct of who I've been around?
Speaker 1: What I call social osmosis. I just believe this because
Speaker 1: everyone I've been around believes it, or my mum and
Speaker 1: dad believe it. So now it's mine. I guess what? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: But that thing that you believe might actually be the
Speaker 1: problem also might not be true, and it might not
Speaker 1: be something that you actually want in your life.
Speaker 2: Now you might have you just inherited it from the
Speaker 2: previous generational society, but deep down you actually don't believe
Speaker 2: in that. Like you believe it right, because it's a
Speaker 2: deepault belief. But looking at your values now, you're like,
Speaker 2: that doesn't really align. This belief is not saving me.
Speaker 2: This belief I'm saying about myself, I don't really feel
Speaker 2: that way about others or something. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: it's really important we look at it again the childhood, right,
Speaker 2: those first what seven years, and how that really influences
Speaker 2: the rest of our lives and how we parent, how
Speaker 2: we lead others, how we lead ourselves, how we see
Speaker 2: ourselves get so important.
Speaker 1: And I think being able to courageously do a deep
Speaker 1: dive into some of your psychological and even behavioral responses
Speaker 1: that you're not proud of, like sometimes for me, like
Speaker 1: often for me, it's ego and insecure. Whereas I do
Speaker 1: it less, I think, But I used to do it
Speaker 1: a lot because I was so because I thought so
Speaker 1: little of myself and I thought everyone else thought so
Speaker 1: little of me that I subconsciously must have felt a
Speaker 1: need to impress them. And so that go I did X,
Speaker 1: and I go, that's great, I did two X. I mean,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be that bad and obvious, but that's essentially
Speaker 1: what I was doing right Whereas now I'm much more
Speaker 1: interested in how they feel than how I feel in
Speaker 1: the moment, and being able to in real time have
Speaker 1: an awareness of what I'm about to say. Where is
Speaker 1: that coming from? Though? Don't say that that is not
Speaker 1: about that is all about you and your bullshit. I
Speaker 1: have a little exact go on sor I was.
Speaker 2: Going to say, I feel like that's an example if
Speaker 2: you just been I mean, you've larned this ability to
Speaker 2: be self reflective and getting to know yourself and granting
Speaker 2: yourself and that's why you can be pressed with someone else. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people that need to know yourself is how you know others.
Speaker 1: Yes. And it's like when I have a chat like
Speaker 1: this with you, I mean I've gotten to know you today.
Speaker 1: We had maybe twenty minutes before we rolled, but so whatever,
Speaker 1: that adds up to an hour and a bit, Like
Speaker 1: I know more about you now as a result of
Speaker 1: this hour, I think than I do through probably the
Speaker 1: last ten episodes. Not that they were disingenuous, but that
Speaker 1: was just let's talk about this. I'll see you next time, right.
Speaker 1: Being able to do that, I think also you as
Speaker 1: an educator or a speaker or whatever, being able to
Speaker 1: teach people the theory or the ideas or the science
Speaker 1: is great. But also when they see that you are
Speaker 1: also Sam the mum, Sam the daughter, Sam, the person
Speaker 1: that has peaks and troughs and good days and bad days,
Speaker 1: makes it much more real and relatable, accessible than this
Speaker 1: genius who seems to float above us, right it doesn't,
Speaker 1: and teaches us normal humans you know, how to like
Speaker 1: it's just bullshit, you know, it really is.
Speaker 2: And that's definitely something I feel passionate about in being
Speaker 2: able to really talk about this ongoing journey of knowing
Speaker 2: ourselves and breaking through our barriers and we've all got them.
Speaker 2: And I hope that I continue to spend the rest
Speaker 2: of my life doing this right where I'm in this
Speaker 2: state of learning, constantly being a student of life, learning
Speaker 2: about myself and unlocking new levels and releasing those beliefs
Speaker 2: that don't save me gaining new ones. And yeah, that's
Speaker 2: really the journey, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And I think also, like on top of that, you know,
Speaker 1: that idea of trying to understand how others think, not
Speaker 1: so that you agree or align with them or endorse
Speaker 1: their ideas or their behaviors, but just to understand, you know,
Speaker 1: that's old chestnut that gets wheeled out too much. Seek
Speaker 1: first to understand, right, And when I'm working with someone
Speaker 1: who's nothing like me, which is quite often not better
Speaker 1: or worse, just real different, I'm so interested in trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what's going on in their mind, or
Speaker 1: at least having some insight so that I can connect,
Speaker 1: because if I can't understand how they think, then all
Speaker 1: the shit I'm saying is just a.
Speaker 2: Guess yeah, and you're right. And this is why I
Speaker 2: think sometimes when I look back at these periods of
Speaker 2: life where I'm like, this is the worst. This is
Speaker 2: such a horrible thing that I'm going through, andever I
Speaker 2: know would go through that, or even going through school
Speaker 2: and trying to study, and this is so hard, and
Speaker 2: why does this have to be so hard? It is
Speaker 2: those experiences that actually help me have empathy for others,
Speaker 2: because even though this situation may look different from mine
Speaker 2: on the beds eye view, going deeper, it's like, ooh,
Speaker 2: I remember a time where I also did feel in
Speaker 2: control of my life, or I remember a time where
Speaker 2: things didn't go to plan, and you can empathize with that.
Speaker 2: So I feel like this lived experience is so important
Speaker 2: for us to actually have the empathy for others. And
Speaker 2: you can't read about that in a book and you
Speaker 2: can't experience it. If you're trying to be perfect, do
Speaker 2: you actually have to constantly put yourself in new situations
Speaker 2: and start to chip away at you know, things that
Speaker 2: are holding you back in order to almost like I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say crash, but actually you know, like you said,
Speaker 2: sit with a discomfort, go through hard stuff, show up
Speaker 2: when you don't want to. All of these things, I
Speaker 2: feel like is what actually helps build that empathy for others.
Speaker 1: And I think being able to change the way that
Speaker 1: we see others or the world or ourselves, or being
Speaker 1: able to really kind of manage our mind, which I
Speaker 1: think is it's not close to impossible, but it's tricky.
Speaker 1: It definitely manages me sometimes and I manage it sometimes,
Speaker 1: but you know, being able to just be open to
Speaker 1: whatever it is that is going on without trying to
Speaker 1: label yourself one way or the other, good or bad.
Speaker 1: And then others the same, where like, how do we
Speaker 1: build real connection with people? Well, there's got to be trust,
Speaker 1: and there's got to be understanding, and there's got to
Speaker 1: be a real desire to want to connect with people.
Speaker 1: And it's work. Like there have been many times where
Speaker 1: I've sat to coach someone and five minutes in, I
Speaker 1: am not even there. I mean, I'm doing it on
Speaker 1: altipilot because I can do it. But that's just skill.
Speaker 1: But I'm not actually fully present, and I have to
Speaker 1: pull myself up. You have to go what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Like you're not even like this hour isn't about you, Craig,
Speaker 1: it's not about you, It's about them. You're not even
Speaker 1: really there, you know. And then that that kind of
Speaker 1: stuff where you're not beating yourself up, but you're just
Speaker 1: acknowledging what is. And I think it's the you know, like,
Speaker 1: I don't think we can think our way into different thinking.
Speaker 1: I think we've got to do our into different thinking.
Speaker 1: I think it's in the action and the behavior and
Speaker 1: the decisions and the what we do that changes that
Speaker 1: kind of cerebral and psychological, cognitive, whatever landscape.
Speaker 2: I really agree with that. I think it's the experiences
Speaker 2: that make it up. And I feel like those with
Speaker 2: the most wisdom are the ones that have actually had
Speaker 2: such a ranging experience in life. It's not the people
Speaker 2: that have, you know, just kind of been there, not
Speaker 2: you know, being too sched to engage with it.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 2: So people that have been courageous with their lives really
Speaker 2: to kind of in the arena and being like, yep,
Speaker 2: I'm here trying something new. I am here, and I
Speaker 2: am willing to kind of yeh, to grow in public basically.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's definitely the experiences that change us.
Speaker 1: It's always good chatting to you. I like that chat.
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit self indulgent because I actually
Speaker 1: there might be no listeners still listening, but I love that.
Speaker 1: I love to hear how you think. I love to
Speaker 1: hear how you do life. I love to hear how
Speaker 1: you work on you. You know. The one thing about personal
Speaker 1: development and self help, it seems to me that sometimes
Speaker 1: the focus of self help in a commercial sense is
Speaker 1: about changing everything around us. You know, more money, more
Speaker 1: this different job. But you know, ticket and boxes and
Speaker 1: all of that's good and part of life. But I
Speaker 1: think the real challenge of personal growth is to change me.
Speaker 1: Oh definitely, It's about changing me, not so much changing
Speaker 1: everything around me. Definitely.
Speaker 2: And I feel like in this in this era, we
Speaker 2: are so quick to then judge others with this new
Speaker 2: self awareness knowledge, and you know, I see people right
Speaker 2: labeling their ex partners and it's just because they've got
Speaker 2: this diagnosis or they're just whatever, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: hang on, the real work is why why was I
Speaker 2: attracted to that at one point in my life? Why
Speaker 2: do I think that that was okay to be treated
Speaker 2: like that? Why did I like that's the real growth
Speaker 2: and us going I can't actually change anyone else outside me,
Speaker 2: So how where is that for me?
Speaker 1: And also maybe I don't want to get in trouble,
Speaker 1: but also maybe what you think about your partner him
Speaker 1: or her, or your sister or your brother or your
Speaker 1: maybe that is true, But is there a chance that
Speaker 1: you're a bit wrong? I'm talking about have I ever
Speaker 1: been wrong? Every day ten times a day my whole life?
Speaker 1: So that thing that I really think, could it be wrong?
Speaker 1: And the next thing is what is the point of
Speaker 1: getting into a public foring forum and essentially just bitching
Speaker 1: about another human being? Like why are you doing that?
Speaker 1: Like what is your Maybe it's a good reason. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not saying don't ever do it. I'm
Speaker 1: just curious about that practice of going. I'm going to
Speaker 1: write to the world, mostly people that don't know me,
Speaker 1: but these people that read my stuff, and I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna I'm just gonna just share all this stuff about
Speaker 1: this person, and I don't know. Even with that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: maybe don't know, but I think, is that a good
Speaker 1: use of my time and energy? Could I use that
Speaker 1: time and energy on something that's better for me?
Speaker 2: Exactly? And it's yourself, right life? And how are you
Speaker 2: living that out with your values and being in aligned with that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And we're not excusing anyone's behavior and we're
Speaker 1: we're not doing that. But it's like, growing up, I
Speaker 1: got bullied a thousand times. It's like I never talk
Speaker 1: about myself as having been a bullied kid because I
Speaker 1: was just a fat kid, and fat kids back then
Speaker 1: got bullied all the time, right, But most of my memories,
Speaker 1: most about my childhood are somewhere between okay and really
Speaker 1: fucking good because I also had lots of fun. I
Speaker 1: also had great mates. I also most of my experiences.
Speaker 1: I grew up in the country. The country's fucking great,
Speaker 1: you know, So I don't live in that. I recognize that.
Speaker 1: I don't put my head in the sand, and I
Speaker 1: don't pretend bad things don't happen to good people. Of
Speaker 1: course they do. But it's like, but here I am
Speaker 1: now today as we're recording, you know, February twenty seven,
Speaker 1: three seventeen. Here in twelve seventeen where you are, and
Speaker 1: I go, all right, well, now in this moment, what's
Speaker 1: the best use of my energy in time? Now, it's
Speaker 1: probably not right. And about that thing that happened to
Speaker 1: me when I was eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess you're working on what you need now, right,
Speaker 2: which is like you're building confidence and the stuff you're doing,
Speaker 2: the things that you know right are going to make
Speaker 2: you feel good about yourself. I feel like that's the importance.
Speaker 2: It's not to go back for the sake of going back.
Speaker 2: It's going back and filling in the gaps, which you're doing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you, Sam.
Speaker 2: On my website which is www dot doctor Samcacy dot
Speaker 2: com or on Instagram at doctor Samcsey.
Speaker 1: Well, I hope your presentation goes well next week.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I told you give me a buzz in between now
Speaker 1: and then if you want a little chatty mcchapster about it.
Speaker 1: But we'll say goodbye a fair but thank you for
Speaker 1: today and good luck with you gig next week. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you'll smash it. If you don't smash it, you'll
Speaker 1: do pretty good and you'll learn a few things right.
Speaker 2: Thanks trying either way I'm winning right absolutely