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Speaker 1: The Greens' official think tank has a new proposition, a

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Speaker 1: national chain of 624 publicly owned supermarkets. To make that

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Speaker 1: a reality would cost more than $ 25 billion and involve

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Speaker 1: the forced sale of 200 Coles and Woolworths supermarkets. But

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Speaker 1: the institute, which took its inspiration from New York Mayor

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Speaker 1: Zoran Mamdani, says it would cut grocery bills by 22%.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to 7am. Today, former

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Speaker 1: MP and now Green Institute Executive Director Max Chandler-Mather on

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Speaker 1: his proposal for a publicly owned supermarket chain. It's Friday,

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Speaker 1: October 10. Max, you've just released this idea in your

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Speaker 1: role with the Green Institute, a call to nationalise Australia's

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Speaker 1: big supermarkets. So to begin with, just explain to me

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Speaker 1: if I was to walk into a publicly owned supermarket

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Speaker 1: under this plan, what would be different to walking into

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Speaker 1: a Coles or a Woolworths now?

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Speaker 2: Well, you would be saving 30% on the price of

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Speaker 2: essential groceries. So that would include things like fruit and vegetables, meat, milk, cheese,

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Speaker 2: and you'd be saving that 30% because Fairgo Grocers, this

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Speaker 2: publicly owned supermarket we've proposed, would be cutting out not

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Speaker 2: just the profit, but the billions of dollars in wasteful

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Speaker 2: corporate spending that Coles and Allworths engage in, whether that

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Speaker 2: be the marketing, executive salaries, all the stuff that comes

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Speaker 2: with being these big bloated private corporations. I should say

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Speaker 2: we're not proposing to entirely nationalize Coles and Woolworths. Our

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Speaker 2: proposal is that Fairgo Grocers would compulsorily acquire, at a

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Speaker 2: fair commercial price, 200 Coles and Woolworths stores and three

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Speaker 2: distribution centers and then build hundreds more after that to

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Speaker 2: aim for about 20% of the supermarket industry. Two goals there,

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Speaker 2: break up the duopoly of Coles and Woolworths, provide a

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Speaker 2: genuinely affordable supermarket, full-service supermarket that people can access. but

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Speaker 2: also force Coles and Woolworths to compete. by forcing them

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Speaker 2: to compete with a supermarket that's driving down prices, forces

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Speaker 2: them to drive down prices and makes for a more

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Speaker 2: competitive supermarket industry and saves people thousands of dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: And this proposal, it is, of course, similar to that

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Speaker 1: of the New York mayor, Zoran Mamdani's plan to open

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Speaker 1: these subsidized city-owned stores in New York.

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Speaker 2: Today, I am proud to announce a collection of essential

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Speaker 2: staples that will be predictably 30% cheaper at all five

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Speaker 2: of our city-run grocery stores.

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Speaker 1: Is that where the inspiration comes from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, partly it comes from that. I think it also

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Speaker 2: comes from recognising that we're in the middle of this

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Speaker 2: massive cost of living crisis and one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: drivers of that crisis is aggressive corporate profiteering.

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Speaker 3: Coles said that it was offering genuine discounts. Today, the

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Speaker 3: court disagreed.

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Speaker 2: And in this case, you know, you have Coles and

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Speaker 2: Woolworths abusing their monopoly power to drive up prices and

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Speaker 2: maximise profits.

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Speaker 3: The supermarket giant is also facing a class-action lawsuit from

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Speaker 3: its own shoppers over the same allegations of fake discounts,

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Speaker 3: and its main rival Woolworths also battling it out in

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Speaker 3: the federal court with the ACCC over similar allegations of

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Speaker 3: dodgy discounts.

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Speaker 2: And it's pretty clear that what we need as a

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Speaker 2: solution to this profiteering from corporations across the economy, driving

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Speaker 2: up prices and screwing people over, are structural responses, not

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Speaker 2: just tinkering around the edges.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: In part, it's inspired by the New York mayor willing

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Speaker 2: to take that sort of response and open up publicly

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Speaker 2: owned supermarkets in New York. Interestingly enough, the biggest network

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Speaker 2: of publicly owned supermarkets in the world is actually run

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Speaker 2: by the US military. They have hundreds of publicly owned supermarkets.

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Speaker 2: across the US as well as across the world. And

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Speaker 2: they're available not just to veterans and their families, but

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Speaker 2: serving servicemen and men and women as well. They offer

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Speaker 2: a 23% discount compared to their sort of commercial competitors.

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Speaker 2: You walk in there and it would look like a

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Speaker 2: standard commercial supermarket. So we're also inspired by the fact

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Speaker 2: that this has been done around the world successfully already.

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Speaker 2: And frankly, you know, we did a poll through YouGov.

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Speaker 2: It found that one in five parents over the last

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Speaker 2: 12 months have sent their kids to school hungry or

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Speaker 2: with empty lunchboxes because of the cost of food. 38%

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Speaker 2: of respondents of this representative sample of people across the country,

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Speaker 2: so over one in three, have said that over the

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Speaker 2: last 12 months they've either skipped meals themselves or cut

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Speaker 2: back because of the cost of food. And I just

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Speaker 2: think that in a wealthy country like Australia, when you

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Speaker 2: have this vicious... poverty and food insecurity and cost of

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Speaker 2: living pressures on household budgets. We need big structural change

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Speaker 2: in response to that that actually provides genuine lasting cost

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Speaker 2: of living relief.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little about scale here because Mamdani's plan,

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Speaker 1: that involves just five stores in New York, but you're

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Speaker 1: not proposing a handful of stores here. You're suggesting that

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Speaker 1: the government acquire 200, as you said, Coles and Woolworth stores,

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Speaker 1: as well as some distribution centres before then going on

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Speaker 1: to build another 400 stores. So why do you think

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Speaker 1: it needs to be so big?

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Speaker 2: Well, because you need to reach economies of scale. So

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Speaker 2: in the first instance, We want to make sure that

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Speaker 2: anyone in the country would be within walking or driving

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Speaker 2: distance of, well, most people of a Fairgo grocer or

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Speaker 2: a public supermarket. Secondly, one of the ways to achieve

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Speaker 2: the affordability of the scheme. So our proposal is that

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Speaker 2: after the first five years of initial investment, Fairgo grocers

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Speaker 2: would be cost neutral. The revenue would fund the ongoing operations,

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Speaker 2: including wages and procuring stock and things like that. And

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Speaker 2: one of the ways you achieve that is if you

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Speaker 2: have a big enough entry into the market, in this case, 20%

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Speaker 2: of the supermarket industry, they can negotiate good contracts, they

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Speaker 2: can get big supply agreements, they can coordinate across the country,

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Speaker 2: but also, crucially, genuinely take on Coles and Woolworths. Australia

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Speaker 2: has the most concentrated supermarket industry in the world. 67%

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Speaker 2: of the supermarket industry in Australia is owned by Coles

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Speaker 2: and Woolworths. And it's pretty clear now that a private

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Speaker 2: corporation is just not going to be able to stand

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Speaker 2: up to them. There's just no scenario where some big

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Speaker 2: corporation comes in and breaks the control that Coles and

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Speaker 2: Woolworths have over our supermarket industry. In that instance, the

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Speaker 2: only actual institution capable of wielding that sort of power

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Speaker 2: is the government. And so part of our proposal and

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Speaker 2: scale is that as well.

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Speaker 1: And you're saying that the average grocery shop, it would

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Speaker 1: be 22% cheaper, essentials 30% cheaper. Where do those numbers

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Speaker 1: come from?

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Speaker 2: So 22% across the entire shop comes from what we

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Speaker 2: think conceivably a large public supermarket chain could provide as

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Speaker 2: a store-wide discount while also earning enough revenue to cover

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Speaker 2: its operations. The 30% discount on essentials is roughly speaking

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Speaker 2: undoing a lot of the price increases in those essentials

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Speaker 2: since COVID. Not just capping prices, which has been talked

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Speaker 2: about in the past, but in this instance, making a

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Speaker 2: genuine cut in the price of things. Things have gone up.

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Speaker 2: Since 2019, the price of cooking oil is up 50%.

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Speaker 2: The price of eggs is up 50%. The price of

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Speaker 2: fruit is up 35%. Milk, bread, cheese, all these things

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Speaker 2: are up somewhere between 35% and 50%. That's sometimes more

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Speaker 2: than double the rate of wages in that same period.

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Speaker 2: This proposal and this intervention would save families thousands of

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Speaker 2: dollars a year. It would mean A lot of people

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Speaker 2: would have that little bit of extra security that I

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Speaker 2: think is fundamental in a country like Australia to ensuring

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Speaker 2: that people can live a good life.

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Speaker 1: How would the government go about that, though? How would

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Speaker 1: you go about seizing hundreds of Coles and Woolworths? There

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Speaker 1: isn't really a precedent for that.

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Speaker 2: Well, there is. And interestingly enough, in my term of parliament,

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Speaker 2: there was a big debate around that time during the

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Speaker 2: ACCC inquiry into price gouging by Coles and Woolworths. And

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Speaker 2: one of the big policy solutions that was proposed there

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Speaker 2: was these things called divestiture powers. In other words, you

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Speaker 2: could give the federal government the power to force Coles

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Speaker 2: and Woolworths to sell a certain number of stores and

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Speaker 2: distribution centres so they would reduce their market share in

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Speaker 2: the supermarket industry. Now, funnily enough, the two political parties

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Speaker 2: that actually supported that were the Greens and the Nationals.

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Speaker 2: obviously coming up from different political perspectives. But what that

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Speaker 2: made clear was the federal government could, if the laws

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Speaker 2: were changed, acquire that power. That's our proposal. What we're

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Speaker 2: proposing is that when they're forced to sell them, they're

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Speaker 2: forced to sell them to a public supermarket chain. In

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Speaker 2: terms of the mechanics, what we've proposed is that the

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Speaker 2: government would establish a statutory authority that would operate at

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Speaker 2: arm's length from the government, that, you know, would have

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Speaker 2: a board of people made up of nutritionists, economists, people

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Speaker 2: with expertise, farmers... But it's entirely achievable. And, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's this lost historical memory about government capacity. Like, in

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Speaker 2: the 20th century, the government used to run the entire

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Speaker 2: energy system. The safest airline in the world in Qantas

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Speaker 2: was publicly owned. The largest bank, Commonwealth Bank, was publicly owned.

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Speaker 2: There is, in fact, a really strong history of really

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Speaker 2: impressive public capacity when it comes to running these large services.

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Speaker 2: And certainly, I think there's a really strong case that

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Speaker 2: we need a public intervention here as well.

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Speaker 1: Still to come is breaking up the supermarket giants the

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Speaker 1: smarter political option.

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Speaker 2: Now on this thought bubble from I think a Greens

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Speaker 2: policy think tank I mean come on that's a little

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Speaker 2: bit silly to think we'll have government-run grocery stores. I

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Speaker 2: probably couldn't think of anything worse. But yes, we do

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Speaker 2: need more competition.

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Speaker 1: Max, you mentioned earlier there used to be some agreement

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Speaker 1: between the Greens and the Nationals on one element of this,

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Speaker 1: of breaking up the supermarket giants. The Greens' policy used

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Speaker 1: to be divestiture. And that did put them in step

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Speaker 1: with the Nationals, which meant that there was this possibility

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Speaker 1: of working together on that outcome. Not so with this idea, though.

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Speaker 1: So why move away from something that did have a

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Speaker 1: potential political pathway?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think all sorts of ideas start out like this,

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Speaker 2: for instance, as sort of a bold idea that shocks,

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Speaker 2: in particular, the parts of the political and media class.

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Speaker 2: And that ends up seeming like common sense a few

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Speaker 2: years later. And the economy in the world has changed

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Speaker 2: a lot over the last decade or so. In this

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Speaker 2: moment of global insecurity, duopolies and monopolies dominate the Australian economy.

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Speaker 2: We only have really four dominant banks, two supermarkets, a

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Speaker 2: half-privatised energy system. In all of these instances, these corporations

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Speaker 2: use that power, take advantage of these growing global crises

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Speaker 2: to maximise their profits. I suppose our argument is that

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Speaker 2: going forward, that's not sustainable anymore. Now, thinking back to

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Speaker 2: the 19th and early 20th century, one of the big

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Speaker 2: debates that happened around then that at first seemed like

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Speaker 2: a completely radical idea was that we need a public

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Speaker 2: option for healthcare and education because they are essentials to life.

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Speaker 2: So then we get public schools, we get public hospitals

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Speaker 2: in the teeth of fierce opposition often. And now I

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Speaker 2: would argue that just like health and education, food is

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Speaker 2: also an essential to life. It's also becoming more insecure.

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Speaker 2: It's also more subject to the predatory profit-driving behaviour of

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Speaker 2: these large megacorporations. And in that instance, it makes sense,

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Speaker 2: as the economy in the world changes, to change as

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Speaker 2: well in our policy and have a public option for food.

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Speaker 1: And you've produced this policy idea through the Green Institute.

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Speaker 1: You're now asking the Greens adopt it. So, Is this

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Speaker 1: a statement that, in your opinion, the Greens do need

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Speaker 1: to go much more aggressively on cost of living and

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Speaker 1: on material economic issues?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I should say I have a really good,

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Speaker 2: close working relationship with the federal Greens and state Greens parties.

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Speaker 2: But yes, the contest now has to be how can

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Speaker 2: we offer the most convincing, credible, but transformative platform that

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Speaker 2: deals with this massive cost of living and housing crisis?

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Speaker 2: you know, there's all these comparisons made to Zoramandami. But

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Speaker 2: the thing I would, I often think about, one of

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Speaker 2: the most impressive things I remember about his campaign, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's that funny moment where I think two weeks before

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Speaker 2: the general election in New York, a reporter comes up

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Speaker 2: to him and says, oh, well, Donald Trump has just

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Speaker 2: said that he's more attractive than you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think I'm a much better looking person.

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Speaker 4: Than him, right?

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Speaker 2: What do you say to that? And Zoran said, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, man. All I'm focused on is affordability for

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Speaker 2: New Yorkers. Assemblyman, any response to President Trump saying he's

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Speaker 2: better looking than you? My focus is on the cost

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Speaker 2: of living prices. And that is the sort of focus

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Speaker 2: I think any political movement vying for transformative change in

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Speaker 2: this country needs right now. And, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of good positive signs from the Greens

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Speaker 2: that are doing that.

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Speaker 1: How well placed do you think the Greens are to

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Speaker 1: have the kind of focus that you're advocating for under

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Speaker 1: its new leadership under David Shoebridge?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, fantastic position. You know, we're in this moment, right,

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Speaker 2: where the political establishment, in particular in the Labor and

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Speaker 2: Liberal Party, really, in funny ways, are moving closer and

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Speaker 2: closer together policy-wise and seem completely bereft of any of

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Speaker 2: that sort of vision or bravery or courage or willingness

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Speaker 2: to take on the large corporations, but also the sort

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Speaker 2: of structural issues in our economy. And Certainly, I think

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Speaker 2: the Greens are in a really good position, for instance,

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Speaker 2: to deal with one of those big pieces of structural

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Speaker 2: reform we need, which is starting to reverse the privatisation

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Speaker 2: that has put us in this position in the first place.

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Speaker 2: We could have much cheaper energy bills if our energy

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Speaker 2: system was publicly owned. We could have much cheaper groceries

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Speaker 2: if we had a public option for food. We could

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Speaker 2: probably have a far better run telecommunications industry if we

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Speaker 2: reverse the privatisation there. childcare, aged care, so many of

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Speaker 2: the problems in our economy are because for decades, both

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Speaker 2: major parties have decided that they will take these really

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Speaker 2: well-run public institutions and flog them off to the highest bidder. Often,

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Speaker 2: these large international conglomerates, a lot of our ex-public assets

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Speaker 2: are now owned by BlackRock and Vanguard, US wealth funds.

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Speaker 2: A The Greens are in a really good position to

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Speaker 2: be the standard bearers of that structural transformative change that

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Speaker 2: brings real cost of living relief and fundamentally transforms people's

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Speaker 2: lives for the better.

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Speaker 1: Max, thank you for speaking with me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: Also in the news, fitness influencer and former Bachelor star

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Speaker 4: Sam Wood has been denied bail on domestic violence charges

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Speaker 4: and remanded in custody until November 23. Police have now

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Speaker 4: detailed the allegations saying Wood's wife Snejana thought she was

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Speaker 4: going to die when she was assaulted and choked during

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Speaker 4: an argument in Noosa. Wood's lawyer says he denies the

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Speaker 4: allegations and has indicated he may plead self-defence. And it's

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Speaker 4: been revealed that OpenAI used AI to help write the

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Speaker 4: email which warned the Australian government that one of its

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Speaker 4: AI agents had hacked Medicare. The company first alerted Australia

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Speaker 4: to the security breach in a five-paragraph email to a

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Speaker 4: Generic Services Australia inbox, a month after it first became

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Speaker 4: aware of the issue. It's been criticised for not raising

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Speaker 4: the hacking incident in a more formal or direct manner.

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Speaker 4: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening to 7am. We'll be

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Speaker 4: back tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: You