1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Hi, good a team, it's a You project, It's Harps. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Who else would it be. 3 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: It's Friday night here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne. 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 2: It's been a beautiful day. I'm very excited. This is 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: my third podcast today. It's almost dinner time, so I 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: could fall over the line about halfway through. We'll see 7 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: how I go, but I'm pretty sure my guests will 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: keep me excited and plugged in. His name's Matt Morgan 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: and I'm going to tell you about him in a minute, 10 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: or he might because I hate reading bios because it's 11 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: predictable and boring, so maybe Matt will do it for me. 12 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Matt, how are you? 13 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 3: I'm very good? Thank you? Yet all is well? All 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: is well? 15 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: Thanks thanks for coming to play on the You Project. 16 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: Just tell people where you're at at right now and. 17 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: The potential interruptions that we're dealing with tonight. Yeah. 18 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 3: Well, I'm coming to you from Old South Wales rather 19 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: than New South Wales, so the original South Wales, the 20 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: OG so in the UK. I'm at a small village 21 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: just on the outskirts of Cardiff, and I guess there's 22 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 3: three bits to my life. I'm a full time intensive 23 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: care doctor by trade, so that's kind of my day job. 24 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 3: But I also have two other bits to my life 25 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 3: in that I've done research in the past in terms 26 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: of medicine and other bits and bobs, but I also 27 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: love public engagement and I fell stumbled into the world 28 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 3: of writing a few years ago. And so I've written 29 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 3: some books, done some stuff in the radio, and done 30 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 3: some stuff on the TV. 31 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: And what what is h one? What box? Does ah? 32 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: One of those tick for you? 33 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? I see, I think it all does the same thing, 34 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 3: if I'm honest. I told my careers tutor back in 35 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 3: school when I was a kid that I wanted to 36 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 3: be Fox Moulder from the X Files. That was my 37 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 3: destination in life. But there's not much need of international 38 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 3: spies in South Wales unfortunately, so that wasn't possible. So 39 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: I kind of stumbled into medicine instead. And you know, 40 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 3: actually it's kind of the same. My life is about 41 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: trying to solve mysteries, whether it's what's wrong with people, 42 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: and we use science to do that, we use machines, 43 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: but ultimately at the end of all of those mysteries 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 3: and plans is a human being, you know, a messy 45 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: tricky human being, and that's what I love putting those 46 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: two things together. Really. 47 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess in the middle of all of 48 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: that problem solving medically and clinically and the complexity of 49 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: diagnosing and treating and trying to figure out in real 50 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: time under enormous pressure in a busy environment with a 51 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: thousand moving parts, then on top of that, trying to 52 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: be a warm, empathect human who to build connection and 53 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: rapport and trust. It's like there's so many different components 54 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: to that. And I feel like, for me, the doctors 55 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: that I've loved are the ones that just treat me great. 56 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: I almost don't even care about of course I care 57 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: about their medical knowledge and skill, but it's more about no, 58 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: I like her, I like him. 59 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm going back to that doctor. 60 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's so true. It's often not about 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: what you say or how you say it. It's about 62 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: how you leave people feeling, you know, And medicine is 63 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: actually all about the choreography of navigating doubt gracefully in medicine, 64 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: because medicine is full of it's not full of black 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: and whites. It's full of gray zones and nuance. And 66 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: that's what humanity is kind of all about really, So, yeah, 67 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 3: that's a bit that's hard, and it's the bit I 68 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: kind of enjoy. 69 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: Really, do you think that. 70 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: Being able to deal with pressure and perform under pressure, 71 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: or as the Eastern philosophers call it, you know, being 72 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: the calm and the chaos equanimity? Is that more about 73 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: who you are just innately? Is that more about runs 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: on the board? Is that about time? Is that about 75 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: having that intention? Because I feel like, yeah, I'll shut 76 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: up and I'll let you answer that. 77 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: What do you think? 78 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: It's definitely something you can get better at and train at, 79 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: and that's why things like checklists and medicine can be helpful. 80 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: You know, when you run into a room and there's 81 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: there's chaos, there's all sorts happening. Your job is to 82 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 3: bring order into those pools of disorder. And yes, there's 83 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 3: ways of making your brain work to do that. But 84 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: I think there probably are people naturally attracted to that chaos, 85 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: and there are probably naturally attracted to know a very organized, 86 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 3: structured clinic way. You know, you know exactly what's going 87 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: to happen in the day. You know, I have no 88 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: idea what's what's going to happen in a day. I 89 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: go to work, I meet families on some boring Tuesday 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: for the first time ever to give them the west 91 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: news of their life, you know that. And for me 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 3: that challenge is also the bit that keeps me going 93 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: back the next day and the next day. 94 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: Is there a Is there a process for you or 95 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 2: a protocol or a way of doing that delivering that 96 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: horrendous news that's most effective. I mean in terms of 97 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: trying to manage all of those emotional, psychological, medical, real 98 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: time variables. 99 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: I think breaking bad news is one of the most 100 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: important things we do, and communication is also the most 101 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: dangerous thing we do. You know. It's not doing that 102 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 3: big procedure, doing the tracheostomy, doing the lines. They are 103 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 3: all the exciting things. They're probably not the most dangerous things. 104 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 3: It's the words we use, actually there are so Yeah. 105 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: For me, breaking bad news is a big part of 106 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: my job. It's a big part of something I want 107 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 3: to get good at. And yes, I've developed over the 108 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: years a kind of structure for doing that which sounds weird, 109 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: you know. I kind of break bad news, or at 110 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 3: least I try to the same every time in a 111 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: way in terms of that structure. But that doesn't take 112 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: away humanity. If anything, having that plan allows me to 113 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 3: spend more time, you know, thinking about that patient, that individual. 114 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: But there's always certain things that I do doing that, 115 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: one of them which may be helpful in you know, 116 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: everyone's everyday life. Actually, well, there's two things. First of all, 117 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: talk about the D word. It used to be the 118 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 3: C word. It used to be you couldn't say the 119 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: word cancer. And now when I walk through a park 120 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: with my dog, there's people running around with cancer and 121 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 3: all over their T shirts everywhere. You know, it's been democratized. 122 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 3: But now it's not the it's the D word now, 123 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: which is which is die? People don't say the word 124 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: die or dead. And what you can't do in medicine 125 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: is use euphemisms. You know, I've said in the past, 126 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: you know, I'm sorry your mum has gone to a 127 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 3: better place, and they'll say, well, where's that Sydney you know, 128 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 3: bond a different hospital, you know, or they've moved on 129 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: for example. You know you've got to say I'm really 130 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: sorry to say your mum has died. You know, you've 131 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: got to say that D word. And the other technique 132 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: that I use is called the empty chair technique, where 133 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 3: often what we want to know is what that person 134 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: would want us to do, had they been able to 135 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 3: tell us. You know, I'm not the boss, The family 136 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 3: is not the boss. Is the patient who's the boss. 137 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 3: So I often say, look, if your dad was here 138 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: now listening to how and well he is after having 139 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: this big operation and he's got multi organ failure, if 140 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: he was sitting in that chair right there, and I 141 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: point to a chair, what would he say? And that 142 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: kind of gives families almost the permission to speak on 143 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: his behalf, you know, not to say what they want. 144 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: Because if it was my daughter, you know, I'd never 145 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: be able to say the words, oh, you know, let 146 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: her die. You know, she's been through too much. I 147 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 3: couldn't say that. But if somebody says, you know, if 148 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 3: she was sitting in that chair right and what would 149 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 3: she say? It gives you that permission. And families often 150 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 3: they crack a joke. Often they say he'd tell a 151 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: real joke, or he'd swear you, he'd say, you know, 152 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: just this is rubbish, just let me go. So yeah, 153 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: those are the two tips, and I guess, coming back 154 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 3: to the D word, the other thing I now do 155 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: as a result of that and some of the books 156 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: I've written, is if people in the streets or friends 157 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: tell me somebody's somebody's died a relative of them, the 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: first thing I do, I don't step backwards. I stepped forwards. 159 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: I'll say, you know, that's terrible. I'm sorry. What was 160 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: your mom's name? Tell me about you? Yeah, because I 161 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: think you know, we don't die once. We die twice. 162 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: We die when our body dies, and we die when 163 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: people stop stop saying no name. And I think that's 164 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: that's one way of recognizing that. Really. 165 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's beautiful. 166 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: How how is your thinking around or your philosophy about 167 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,599 Speaker 2: death evolved since you were the medical student and you 168 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: stepped into you're role as a doctor on day one 169 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: till now? Do you think differently about it? Do you 170 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: interact with people differently because of your experience and insight? 171 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 3: I do. I guess I think about it a lot 172 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 3: to start with, not in a pondering nihilistic way, but 173 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: I'm faced with it, you know, daily. But yes, Weirdly 174 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 3: for me, that doesn't make me sad or stressed. It's 175 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 3: quite the opposite. 176 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: Really. 177 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: It shows to me, how you know, life and death 178 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: are just eleven and one on a clock face. You know, 179 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 3: they seem far apart, but they're physically close. And so 180 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: if I've had a rubbish day and I don't know 181 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 3: I've had a flat tire or a tax bill, I 182 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 3: can go to work and see people tiptoeing along the 183 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 3: edge of life and death and it just, you know, 184 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 3: it makes those other things not seem like a big deal. 185 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 3: You know, life is an emergency, and I'm reminding of 186 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 3: that every day, which is well, in fact, I'm paid 187 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 3: to be reminded of every day. 188 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: Yes, a great, Yeah, it seems like being a good physician, 189 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: apart from all the obvious stuff, is hugely about understanding 190 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: someone else's experience. My research for my PhD is about 191 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: a thing called metaperception, which is your ability to understand 192 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: what it's like being around you. So what's the mat 193 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: experience like for my patient or my team that I 194 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: work with. And also, as you would know, a theory 195 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: of mind is just in general, understanding someone else's experience 196 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: in the moment, not necessarily relative to you, but I 197 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: think that capacity to have that kind of in the 198 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: moment awareness and to be able to read situations read 199 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: people within reason, understand, not necessarily agree or align with, 200 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: but understand what they're thinking, feeling, experiencing would almost be 201 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: like a superpower in your job. 202 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: Wow, I've never thought meta meta experiences. 203 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: So metaperception. 204 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: That's essentially the question at the center of all of 205 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: that research is what's the me experience for them? 206 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: So what's the mad experience? Like? You know? 207 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: So me as a podcast we talk to So right 208 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 2: now we're talking to thousands of people, and I'm always 209 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: without being preoccupied by I'm always aware of I'm not 210 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: talking to Craig. So what's the language I can use? 211 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: What's going to be of interest to people? What do 212 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: people want to hear? What don't people want to hear? 213 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 2: So this trying to have, you know, without being a 214 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: stand up comic. At the end of the day, if 215 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: you and I deliver all this awesome information in the 216 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: most boring way ever, people are turning off and tuning out. 217 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: So it's like, how do we share these thoughts and 218 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: ideas and stories in a way which builds connection and 219 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 2: curiosity and rapport while not compromising our message? 220 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: You know, And I think that's for you. 221 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 2: How do I navigate this conversation with this It's very 222 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 2: hard conversation with this person about this you know, complex 223 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: thing or this unwanted thing. Obviously in a way that 224 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: is going to be for one of a bit of term, 225 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: the most digestible for them or their family. 226 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, that's fascinating. I guess I've long thought so. 227 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 3: There was a doctor in medical school I asked a 228 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: very simple question at that early stage. I think I 229 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 3: was a third year medical student, and all he asked 230 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: was what does every patient and every family want? That 231 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: was It was pretty short, and different people put their 232 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 3: hands up and said different things. A few people said 233 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: a cure, and of course that may be right, but 234 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: one in five people in intensive care that I look 235 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: after will die. They won't get that. Some people said 236 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: a diagnosis. Yeah, that might be the case. And I 237 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 3: think now I've come to I think I know the answer, well, 238 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: at least I think I know a better answer. And 239 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: I think what everybody wants is somebody to make sense 240 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 3: of their story, because we are story and machines. As 241 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: our doctors. You know, if you chop me in half 242 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: right now, what we'll spill out our just stories, stories 243 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 3: from the past, hopes of the future. So I guess 244 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: that meta experience and that meta psychology I think about 245 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: is how can I make sense of this patient's story. 246 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: And for some people that may mean being super science 247 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: y and saying, oh, you know, all about the fancy 248 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: drugs and machines and procedures, and maybe it's that. For 249 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: other people it might just be to say, look, you know, 250 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: we've treated all the things we can treat. Those things 251 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 3: aren't helping. We're now going to change our focus to 252 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: making sure he's in no pain or distress. And then 253 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 3: I'm sorry to say he's going to die, and I'm 254 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: so sorry about that, you know, And that they aren't 255 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: different things, they are the same things. And I also think, 256 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 3: you know, we live life forwards, but often we understand 257 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 3: it better backwards. So I want if that matter experience 258 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 3: and that that changes with time. You know, Yes, we 259 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: know about the remembering experience itself from Kanaman and others, 260 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 3: and yeah, so those are the kind of things that 261 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 3: go through my head really. 262 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I guess understanding that everybody has, you know, 263 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: their own language and their own level of understanding, and 264 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: how do I communicate, like my mum and dad are 265 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: eighty six and they're both. They're not awesome at the moment. 266 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: You know, there's a bunch of medical issues and a 267 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: bunch of challenges, and I'm very careful about the words 268 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: that i use, the terminology, the explanations, the conversations, you know, 269 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: the language, so that I'm informing them and I'm I'm 270 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: supporting them and I'm not terrifying them. You know, it's 271 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: a real kind of almost conversational juggling act about how 272 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: do I talk about this in a way where I'm 273 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: not compromising. I'm making sense to them, but I'm also 274 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: being compassionate and aware in real time. 275 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: You know. It's an interesting thing. 276 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you mentioned the words you use are actually 277 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: really important. I push back against this phrase. You know, 278 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: it's not what you say is how you say it. Well, 279 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: I don't think that's true. Actually, I think it's what 280 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: you say quite a lot of the time. And you know, 281 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: Lichtkenstein said, the limits of my words are the limits 282 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 3: of my world, and the words we have to describe 283 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 3: things are actually really important, and subtle changes can change that. 284 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: You know, we don't say that we're a ceiling of care. 285 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: We say that there aren't any treatments that will help left, 286 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: but there's always care left, for example, and there's subtle 287 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 3: changes for for parents and for children that can make 288 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: a real difference. So yeah, I agree. 289 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: There's an idea in psychology you're like this. It's called 290 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: the false consensus effect, and it basically just speaks to 291 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: the fact that most people think that other people think 292 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: like them, and that they think that their intention will 293 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: be the other person's experience. 294 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but knowing that that just isn't true. 295 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: So I'm you know, if I'm coaching someone or working 296 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: with an audience or a group or whatever consulting, which 297 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: I do all of that stuff, I'm always trying to 298 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: understand where they're at so that I can I can 299 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: be what I need to be for them, not be 300 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: what I need to be for me, you know, like 301 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: what's going to move the needle, what's going to help, 302 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: what's going to be helpful, what's going to be unhelpful. 303 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: I can talk to someone and I create more of 304 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: a problem than a solution, depending on what I say 305 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: and how I say it, you know, And I think 306 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: that that sometimes when you're talking to an expert in 307 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: inverted commas, it can be kind of terrifying, overwhelming. 308 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know you need that shared mental model. 309 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: I think it's another way to put that, I guess. 310 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: And in terms of that language, the average reading age 311 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 3: in the UK, you know, where I live, is probably 312 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: around ten actually, and things are changing with books, you know, 313 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 3: even I love books, I love reading, and even you know, 314 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: I struggle now to have that concentration. I have to 315 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: physically put my phone in a drawer, go to a 316 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: place that I can read. So so that reading age 317 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: is maybe even changing more. And people who have health issues, 318 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: you know, sadly, it's still true to say that sickness 319 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: is often an illness of the poor. We know, socioeconomic 320 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: factors play hugely into health inequalities, and so that reading 321 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 3: age may maybe even lower. So yeah, you've got to 322 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 3: be really purposeful about not only thinking about that experience 323 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 3: of the words, but also that the physical language you're 324 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: using yourself. 325 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: Actually, this is a kind of a question from left field, 326 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: but tell me about your work as and the intersection 327 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: with AI, you know, because this is so elergent, it's 328 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: developing every day. It's like, tell me about you and 329 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: the integration of that into your life. 330 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 3: I've always been a bit of a techno geek and 331 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 3: a techno file. I had a ZX spectrum computer when 332 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 3: I was a kid with rubber keys. I used to 333 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 3: you know, I still love and love technology. And it 334 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 3: came to about halfway through my training and I had 335 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: an opportunity to do some research into severe infection or sepsis. 336 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: And in fact, i'd cared for a seventeen year old 337 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 3: called Chris who was a student who sadly died after 338 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 3: taking a holiday with school abroad in Kenya, and he 339 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 3: died a few days after his eighteenth birthday party in 340 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: the intensive care unit with infection with sepsis. And that 341 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 3: really motivated me, as I'm going to do this, so 342 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 3: I'm going to take time out. So I spent three 343 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 3: years doing a PhD trying to work out the immunology 344 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 3: of severe infection and sepsis, and it kind of struck 345 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 3: me at the time. We were using a load of statistical 346 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 3: techniques to look at this data, but they were techniques 347 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 3: from you know, the ancient past, from hundreds of years ago, 348 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: using loads of t tests and loads of boring statistics. 349 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 3: And a friend of mine worked in finance and we 350 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: were talking one day about how he was trying to 351 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: predict the next trend, and he was not using one 352 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 3: marker or one statistical test. You know, they were using 353 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: hundreds and hundreds and modeling them all, and they were 354 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 3: using this weird thing called neural networks that Nod turd of. 355 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: So it struck me that, well, you know, life is 356 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 3: more complex than the stock market. Biology is far more complex. 357 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 3: We should be using multiple markers together, not just single things, 358 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: and we should be modeling them. So I actually borrowed 359 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 3: some techniques from finance and used neural networking on a 360 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 3: program called R at the time to try to combine 361 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: mark and you know, it blew away the other ways 362 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: of doing things in terms of predictive power. So that 363 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: was back before AI was spoken about much. So I've 364 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 3: been interested in that field for a long time. How 365 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: I use it today, I guess there's in three ways, predominantly, 366 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: Number one to help me learn and to teach others 367 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: in terms of having a structure. Number two, to help 368 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 3: with tricky and rare diagnoses and keep up to date 369 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: with the literature. But number three, the most common now 370 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 3: actually is what we're doing now. So I speak to 371 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 3: patients in what we call a follow up clinic maybe 372 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 3: six months after they've survived critical illness. And they're quite tricky, 373 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 3: long conversations at half an hour minimum. They cover everything 374 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: from sexual dysfunction to trachiostomy scars. And I used to 375 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 3: do that and then type all the notes afterwards and 376 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:05,239 Speaker 3: forget things and not pay attention to that person. And 377 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 3: now actually we use in some ambient voice technologies to 378 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 3: capture a lot of that, to do some of the 379 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 3: documentation for us so that we can really concentrate on 380 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: the person in front of us. So, yeah, that's probably 381 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 3: the way I interact with AI the most today. 382 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: And more broadly. And then we'll jump off this. But 383 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: what are the pros and cons? 384 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: Do you think? 385 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: But if you know of it seems to be you know, 386 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: invading it's not the right word, but infiltrating, becoming part 387 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: of so many industries, even in psychology. My first degree 388 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: was in exercise physiology, you know, in the exercise space, 389 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: in the nutrition space, in all kinds of wellbeing fields. 390 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 2: I guess in business in is there anything that worries 391 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: you about the integration of AI into medicine. 392 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's definitely transformative. There's no doubt 393 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 3: about that. If I was training in medicine today, I 394 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 3: would perhaps think carefully about different specialties. Would I train 395 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 3: in radiology where I need to interpret images? Possibly not, 396 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 3: But if I loved radiology, I'd probably train in a 397 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: form of radiology that's still interacted with people, in terms 398 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 3: of interventional radiology, maybe the people who look at images 399 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 3: and then do something with them. So it's definitely transformative. Yes, 400 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: there's risks, there's risks to everything, especially around data and 401 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: hallucinations and confabrillation and all those things we read about. 402 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 3: But for me, you know, humans are contextualization engines and machines, 403 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 3: those story machines, and yesa I is already helping with 404 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: things like diagnostics, for example, or advising what treatments are 405 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 3: more likely to help, or research. But for me, that 406 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: should just give me more time doing the really difficult things, 407 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 3: which is explaining, contextualizing, you doing some of those practical things, 408 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: and more time to do that is great, that's amazing. 409 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: You know, I don't want to be working out really 410 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: complex scoring systems to work out what severity of disease 411 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: different people have. If I'm told that that gives me 412 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 3: more time to actually manage that disease, for example. So yeah, 413 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: I think overall, I'm hopeful, with the right safety guards 414 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 3: and safety rails that it will allow doctors, nurses and 415 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: others to do the care bits of medicine, which which 416 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: is the important bits. 417 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 2: Really, it's doing your work for you, not globally speaking, 418 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: but for you. Does it make you more or less open? 419 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: Maybe this is the wrong question. You can figure it 420 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: out to spirituality, to something other than what we can 421 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: see and feel and poke and touch. You know, has 422 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: it opened the door or closed a door on neither. 423 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 3: I don't describe myself as religious, but I probably describe 424 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 3: myself as spiritual. Or what do I mean by that? Well, 425 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 3: I'll give you a practical example. My latest book is 426 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 3: called A Second Act, and that follows the lives of 427 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: ten patients, all of which have had a cardiac arrest. 428 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 3: So their heart had stopped from different causes and causes 429 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 3: as strange as being hit by lightning, being buried in 430 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 3: an avalanche, self harm, heart attacks, all sorts, but all 431 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 3: of them survived. They survived because they had CPR, they 432 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: survived because of medicine, and they survived because of reasons 433 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: we don't know. And all of their lives changed remarkably actually, 434 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 3: and the book is less about the medicine and more 435 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 3: about what dying can teach us about living, because I'm 436 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 3: fed up of Yeah well, I was kind of fed 437 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 3: up of influencers and tech pros telling us how we 438 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 3: should live. You know, these are the people who know, 439 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 3: the people who've seen both sides. They know what's really 440 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 3: important in life. And in fact, what they tell us 441 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 3: is that we have two lives. It's just the second 442 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 3: begins when you realize you have one. You know, they've 443 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 3: all radically changed what they do. But through this journey 444 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 3: there were a few interesting things. Number one, I held 445 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: my own living funeral is one thing I did, which 446 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 3: was an amazing experience. 447 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: I think, everybody, what does that tell us? What that mein' stock? 448 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I kind of got to the end of 449 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 3: the book. I thought i'd finished it, and writing a 450 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 3: book is a bit like trying to solve a puzzle 451 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 3: that only you can solve. There was something missing, there 452 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: was something big missing, And I spoke to my editor 453 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 3: and I kind of said, look, you know, I've written 454 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: it all, but how can I sympathize or empathize with 455 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: what these people have been through. You know, I've never died, 456 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 3: and i'd recently had the funeral of my aunt. She 457 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 3: was ninety seven, great Auntie Wynn, and I did a 458 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: eulogy where I wrote her a letter because I struggled 459 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 3: to write about her, so I wanted to write a 460 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 3: letter to her. And I went to this funeral and 461 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 3: he had all the stuff she loved. She would have 462 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 3: loved it, had a favorite people, music, food, all those things. 463 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: And then it kind of struck me, well, you know, 464 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: why do I have my own funeral. We don't wait 465 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 3: until you're dead for that. Why don't you do it before? 466 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: So I wrote to a local chaplain actually in our village, 467 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: and said, HI had quite like a funeral, And they 468 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 3: wrote back and said, yeah, that's fine. 469 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 1: Are you dead yet? Yeah? 470 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 3: Well yeah, they said you need to be Christian and dead, 471 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: and well that's a bit awkward because I'm neither. So 472 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 3: instead we went away with a group of eight friends. 473 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 3: We had a proper celebrant, a humanist celebrant who did 474 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: things properly. All of us had a eulogy written by 475 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 3: the people who love us. We chose our favorite songs, 476 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: our favorite readings, and this wasn't just you know, this 477 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 3: wasn't an excuse for a guy's trip away. This was 478 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 3: kind of. 479 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: Wasn't a thinly disguised what you're say what you're saying. 480 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 3: You know there was red wine there, but that was 481 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 3: that was a nod to the service. 482 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm still suspicious. 483 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: And what we did we did all the things in 484 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 3: the book that these ten people had been telling us 485 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: to do. So we enacted all of those throughout the weekend, 486 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 3: whether it was look back at old photos, use the 487 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 3: power of music for example, do things you're bad at. 488 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 3: We all made homemade nocky by my Italian friend that 489 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: we were terrible, and then we had a formal service 490 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: where we took it in turns to read each other's eulogy, 491 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 3: listen to music played by my friend, and it was transformative. 492 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 3: Nobody came away from that weekend the same. We've all 493 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 3: changed things radically in our life and this isn't This 494 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: sounds weird, but it's not weird. We've always had as 495 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 3: human ceremonies of kind of age ceremonies or reflecting ceremonies. 496 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 3: The Greeks had the Euclidean mysteries where they went into 497 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 3: a cave maybe they took some alcohols, some drugs, and 498 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 3: they confronted their own mortality. And they would do this 499 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 3: in the middle middle of their life. We've always done this, 500 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 3: it's just now it sounds weird. So yeah, if there's 501 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 3: one thing your listeners can take away, I think everybody 502 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: should have a funeral before they die. 503 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: How did it impact you? I love that. 504 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: When you first said that, I'm like, bro, come on, 505 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: But when you unpack it, I'm like, I might have one. 506 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: How did that impact Did you say it was profound 507 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: that you were different? Did you think differently? Did you 508 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: feel differently? Did you view was your perception of things changed? 509 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? The things that got to me the most, if 510 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: I'm honest, weren't. It wasn't the reading from my own 511 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: part of the ceremony. It was my friends them not 512 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: being there. That was the thing that got us all. 513 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: But also listening to what your family say about you 514 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: in a eulogy before you're dead is very enlightening. Like 515 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 3: you said before about metaperception, you think you know what 516 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 3: other people think about you or what you feel. 517 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: You know. 518 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 3: One of my friends who went there, the wife wrote 519 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: an amazing eulogy, is beautiful and they said, what an 520 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 3: hard worker this person was. They were always thinking of 521 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: their work and their patients. Even when they went on holiday, 522 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 3: they would take their laptops not to miss anything. And 523 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 3: she wrote, this is a really positive thing to say, 524 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: what an amazing guy he was. And actually he listened 525 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: to it and went, wow, is that what my family 526 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: is going to remember about me? Is that what's the 527 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: most important bit in my life? And they say all 528 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: of them made big life decisions. What did we do 529 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 3: well at the time, we were living in Australia. Actually 530 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 3: we were living in Western Australia in Perth, which is beautiful, 531 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: amazing colleagues, amazing hospital in Australia yet working through Curtain 532 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 3: University and the Royal Perth Hospital. Loved our time there, 533 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: but lots of things were happening. Family back home were 534 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 3: becoming and well we had some health issues there for 535 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 3: my own children. There were just lots of little moving 536 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: parts and actually after that weekend we decided to come home. 537 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: And that was a really hard decision and we didn't 538 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: do it because we were unhappy there. We did it 539 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: because of connection. Meaning we've got a word in Welsh 540 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: called canevin which means your connection to place and people, 541 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 3: and we did it for all of those boring reasons 542 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 3: after that weekend, So was it all that, you know, 543 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: probably not, but it was it partly that definitely, And 544 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 3: other friends changed jobs, changed careers, started doing a lot 545 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: of charity work, stopped doing a lot of things that 546 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: they were doing before, as well as start new things. So, yeah, 547 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: an amazing experience. One of the best moments of my 548 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 3: life was thinking about my death. 549 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: Was it in the moment the experience? Was it said? 550 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: Was it enlightening, was it confronting? What was it being 551 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: in the middle of that? And did it feel real? 552 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 3: It absolutely felt real. Putt it this way. There's a 553 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: lot of talk about toxic masculinity, and we were a 554 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 3: big selection of different people who went, but there's nothing 555 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: that counteracts that more than you know, it ended with 556 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 3: eight of us, I think, mostly undressed together in a 557 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: hot tub listening to some acoustic music. You know, there 558 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 3: was no toxic masculinity involved that weekend. Yeah, it was 559 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: all of those things, and I think it was constructed 560 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: in such a way to nudge those emotions. You know, 561 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: music is such a powerful way of doing that, as 562 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 3: our words and readings, Although our families weren't there. We 563 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 3: had their words read out to us. Yes, the celebrant 564 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: did it amazingly. The reading he used was incredible and 565 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 3: in fact, if you want, at the end, I can 566 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 3: read the passage which it ended with. There was good 567 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: lighting and there was ceremony to it, so there was 568 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 3: a candle lit blown out as you died, re lit 569 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 3: as you lived. So it was done. It was done 570 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: really well, and it was all of those things. 571 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: Actually, do you have a theory on why we are 572 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six? Seemingly anyway, it's so scared of 573 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: death when it seems over time My understanding anyway is 574 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: that that wasn't always the guys. I mean, of course 575 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 2: people have been scared of death forever, but it seemed 576 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: to be a lot more accepted and embraced and spoken about. 577 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: But it's almost like, as you said, taboo, you know, 578 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: we tend to avoid it. We don't want to have 579 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: hardcome sagis. It's almost like we don't want to feel 580 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: those things. 581 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: There's a brilliant book written by a mortuary assistant called 582 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: it's one of the best titles of a book I've 583 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 3: ever heard. It's called When Smoke gets in your eyes 584 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 3: because she works in a crematorium, and she details how 585 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 3: the death industry, if you like, has changed, how it 586 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: was really born in the American Civil War when people 587 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 3: had to be transported from far away back home, and 588 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 3: actually now it's this big industry. And you know, nine 589 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: out of ten people want to die at home and 590 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 3: only what you know, nine out of ten people die 591 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 3: in hospital, So there's this big mismatch there. It also 592 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 3: used to be in the home, as you say, around 593 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 3: the home, and now we don't see death around us. 594 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 3: It's sterile, it's in hospitals, it's managed. And I get that. 595 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 3: But at the same time, I know Steve Jobs said 596 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 3: death is life's greatest invention, and it doesn't feel like 597 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: that at the time, but it is the thing that 598 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 3: motivates us to do things and to bring meaning. In 599 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: terms of being scared, I think, you know, the way 600 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 3: I describe is I'm not scared of death, but I'm 601 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 3: scared of dying. And I think it's that process is 602 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 3: the uncertainty in the tricky bit. And we know, certainly 603 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: in this country, the investment in things like palleative care 604 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 3: services is very low. You know, it's charity funded a 605 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: lot of it. So I'm also the ambassador for a 606 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 3: brieve Man charity and it's always amazed me how there's 607 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 3: support for lots of things in life, tough times, but 608 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 3: so little for when somebody dies, you know, and that 609 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: will happen, it will happen to all of us. So 610 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 3: this brief Man charity, called to Wish now provides immediate 611 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 3: breavement support and not just a phone call or website, 612 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 3: you know, an actual human as well. As they do 613 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 3: these amazing boxes that we can do, handprints and haircuttings 614 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 3: for young people who die in the intensive care unit. 615 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm really passionate about that brievement support and 616 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 3: I think that will perhaps go some way to help. 617 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: A few years in fact, six years ago now, I 618 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: was in the gym training with my training partners, so 619 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: I made of mine and we've been training together for 620 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: twenty years ish and I can tell you exactly when 621 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: it was. So it was on a Friday night at 622 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: seventeen oh five. He had a cardiac arrest, didn't have 623 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: a heart attack, had a cardiac arrest. 624 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: Dead and so I was in the gym. 625 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: There was probably twenty five people in there, and I 626 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: started working on him within I don't know, fifteen seconds 627 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: when I because he fell face down and he's a body. 628 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: He was a bodybuilder. 629 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: Like he's still alive by the way now, but he 630 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: fell face first, one hundred and five kilos of just 631 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 2: this lump of fucking human that it's like, if you're 632 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 2: going to die, can you die face up? 633 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: It's just easier. I mean, like, I don't be hungrateful, 634 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: but bro, you made it hard. 635 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 2: So then I've got to flip and as you know, 636 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: one hundred and five kilo person, that's just limp. Anyway, 637 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: so's to turn him over. But it's amazing what you 638 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 2: can do in that kind of situation. But anyway, I 639 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: turned him over and I started working on him. An 640 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: interesting thing was he was dead from or he was 641 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: you know, dead from seven five to seventeen twenty two, 642 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: so seventeen minutes, and there would have been twenty five 643 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 2: other people give or take in the gym. 644 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: Not one person would help. 645 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: Wow, not every Everyone just had this look of terror 646 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: on their face. And I'm not saying an I hear, 647 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 2: I'm definitely not, but I'm definitely not going to stand 648 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 2: there when you know my mate or anyone for that matter. 649 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 2: But I started working on him, and I was trying 650 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 2: to get somebody to give me a hand, right, because 651 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: two people's better than one. And yeah, nobody would come 652 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 2: forward at all. And in the end, I just there 653 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: was one guy looking at me and I asked him 654 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 2: what his name was and he told me and I 655 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: doesn't matter, but let's go Steve. I said, Steve, you 656 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: need to come over here. I don't know what to do. 657 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: It I go, I know what to do. Just come 658 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: over here. But apart from and you know, he was 659 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 2: came back online seventeen minutes later. The paramedics got there 660 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: in about eleven minutes, so he was it was just 661 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: making him for a long time. 662 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, just the ris. Obviously the main thing was that. 663 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 2: But my secondary awareness later was how nobody wanted to help, 664 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: how terrified everybody was, and even in the face of 665 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: like this is it doesn't get any more important than this. 666 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: I know you're uncomfortable, but for fuck's sake, you know, 667 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: get over here. 668 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, that was a really big lesson for me. 669 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: But also it is I mean, this is just my experience, 670 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: and I'm sure it's completely different for everybody else, but 671 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe how focused I could become, like, how 672 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: completely consumed and focused and in the moment, And yeah, 673 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: it's a weird experience. Weirder for him, I'm sure, but 674 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 2: it's a weird experience being that person doing that when 675 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: it's someone that you love as well, right, and in 676 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 2: a public place with people just staring at you like fish, 677 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, So that was that was a steep 678 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 2: learning curve and a real moment of awareness. And yeah, 679 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 2: it's funny how and people, I guess this sounds cheesy, 680 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 2: but for me, just in that moment, you realize, well 681 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 2: I realized that for me, how obviously, in that moment, 682 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 2: maybe beyond how little everything else matters, it's like, oh, 683 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: all that thing, all that shit that I waste energy 684 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: and emotion and focus and tension. And I'm like, you know, 685 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 2: I was in this moment having this kind of inner breakthrough. 686 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: At the same time. So and he was. 687 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 2: He was so obviously when he was well enough, which 688 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: was he was in a coma for a day or two, 689 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 2: but surprisingly totally apart from a crap memory for about 690 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 2: six months. But after that, like right now completely fine, 691 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: got a pacemaker. 692 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that I'm like what was there? Like, what's 693 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: the deal? What what did you see? Did you see Jesus? 694 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,479 Speaker 3: Was there? A light? Was there? 695 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: And all he remembers inverted commas is just complete bliss. 696 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 3: Yes, well complete. You know what an amazing First of all, 697 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 3: what an amazing thing you did. And I know you 698 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 3: know this, but I'm going to see it anyway. You know, 699 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,439 Speaker 3: if it wasn't for your hard work, he would have died. 700 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: You know, he's alive today because of what you did. 701 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 3: And for people listening. You know, I can't stress enough 702 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 3: the importance of CPR in people who have a cardiac 703 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 3: arrest and cardia arrest's eighty percent happen in the workplace 704 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 3: or the home. So if you learn to do CPR, 705 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 3: the likelihood is you will help somebody who you know already. 706 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 3: You know, a family member, a friend, somebody like your 707 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 3: friend in the gym. So you know. People listening to this, 708 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 3: go out, look online. There's so many easy ways to 709 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 3: do this. It's not hard. You will not do harm, 710 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 3: you will only do good. If somebody collapses, they aren't 711 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 3: breathing properly and they're unconscious, you put your hands together, 712 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 3: you put it in the middle of their chest, You 713 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: press down until you feel something move. You do it 714 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 3: to the tune of Staying Alive by the Beg's or 715 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 3: Pink Pony Club by Chapel Rohan. If you're so inclined, 716 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 3: and every minute that you delay doing that, the chances 717 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 3: of that persons in plummet. So do it, and do 718 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 3: it quickly. You won't do any harm. You know, it's 719 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 3: such a simple intervention. And for your friend, you know, 720 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 3: the reason he lived wasn't because of intensive care or 721 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 3: the coma or doctors. Who was because of you. And 722 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 3: that power is in everybody's hands to do that. You know, 723 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 3: we can't undo damage which is done before coming to hospital. Yeah, 724 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 3: I guess the other thing to say in terms of 725 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 3: after life, lots of people ass me about is that, 726 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 3: you know, is there an afterlife? What about experiences people have? 727 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 3: I wasn't originally going to put anything in the book 728 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 3: about that. And yet out of those ten people, at 729 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 3: least state of them described something which was identical. And 730 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 3: this was that when they were having a cardigressed or surviving. 731 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 3: It's very cliched, but it's true they saw something that 732 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 3: was bright. There were other people around them, family members, 733 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 3: They had a Life Review. They felt that they weren't alone. 734 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: They maybe heard things. And you know, I'm a scientist, 735 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 3: I said, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. So I looked 736 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 3: into this in a lot of detail, and you know, 737 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 3: there's an amazing study done by accident. There were researchers 738 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 3: who were doing studies on brain waves and they were 739 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 3: scanning the brains of people. And there was one elderly 740 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 3: person who had a terminal disease, but he was in 741 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 3: the study for another reason. You know, it was nothing 742 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 3: to do with the disease, but because he had a 743 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 3: terminal disease, he had to do not resuscitate, order in place. 744 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 3: And it just so happened that during this study he died, 745 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 3: and so they were able to capture the brain waves 746 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 3: during his death. And when they analyzed those the bits 747 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 3: that lit up. Guess what they were. They were the 748 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 3: bits that related to light perception. They were the bits 749 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 3: related to memories, especially photo and visual memories. They were 750 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 3: the bits related to feeling the presence of people and consciousness. 751 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 3: And so I think it's true. You know, when you die, 752 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 3: your life flashes before your eyes. You're not alone. You 753 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 3: see a bright light, and I think that's probably not 754 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 3: because of religious reasons or spiritual reasons. I think that 755 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 3: is the process of cell death and that was shown 756 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 3: in this unbelievable experiment. 757 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: Wow, you could never plan that experiment. 758 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 2: Right, No, if you want to play, I get as 759 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 2: somebody who's really just got one foot out the door 760 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 2: and maybe you know one toe in. 761 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. That's I did not know about that. 762 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 2: So just having a quick look on my screen here, 763 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 2: So you wrote, so the twenty twenty five book, Second Act. 764 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: That's out now, because when I had a lot that 765 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 2: was like about so that's out now. 766 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's out in all good and bad bookshops. It's 767 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 3: on Audible and Spotify and other places. You might want 768 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 3: to listen to autobooks too. 769 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 2: So first book twenty nine ten, if my data is correct, 770 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 2: here critical stories and realities of intensive care medicine. Give 771 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 2: us a snapshot of that. And this not a sales pitch, everybody, 772 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 2: although it could be, it doesn't matter. Give us an 773 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,360 Speaker 2: insight into that book. 774 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 3: Yes, this was a book that I wrote after meeting 775 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 3: some families who you know, after they'd loved ones had 776 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 3: been through intensive care and survived or not. They often 777 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 3: you know would say, well, you know, we didn't know 778 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 3: anything about this place, you know, and this was before COVID, 779 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 3: and so things like ventilators and the intensive care unit. 780 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 3: Nobody kind of knew what it was. And I'd spend 781 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 3: decades of my life researching strange topics and niche topics 782 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 3: like sepsis and immunology, and I'd kind of forgotten about. Well, 783 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 3: these people don't even know what intensive care is and 784 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 3: what it can and cannot do. And so this book 785 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 3: is a book full of stories and science all wound together, 786 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 3: telling the story of the intensive care unit. And it 787 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 3: also starts the opening chapter starts with the world's first 788 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 3: intensive care patient, which was a little twelve year old 789 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 3: girl called viv who should have died in the nineteen 790 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 3: fifty two polio epidemic in Copenhagen, and instead the intensive 791 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 3: care unit was born. Somebody made a hole in her neck, 792 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 3: put in a tube, got teams of medical students to 793 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 3: squeeze a bag to three hundred medical students in the 794 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 3: end squeezing this bag for all day, every day, and 795 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,919 Speaker 3: VIVI lived. She survived, She lived, she fell in love, 796 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 3: she got married, She had a dog called Bobby. It 797 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 3: was an amazing story. And so intensive care was born 798 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 3: in the middle of a viral pandemic back in nineteen 799 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 3: fifty two, and then it probably became more known about 800 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 3: my job. Intensivist first went in the dictionary during that 801 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 3: other big viral pandemic that we had recently. So, yeah, 802 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 3: that's the story of intensive care. That's incredible. The world's 803 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 3: first human powered ventializer or whatever is that the right word, 804 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 3: that's sound. Yeah, that's incredible. And is there been in 805 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 3: terms of the the raceources and the you know, the 806 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 3: science and the technology. Has there been a kind of 807 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 3: a consistent evolution of what we have or is there 808 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 3: been as there being a big kind of incline over 809 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 3: the last five or ten years. Yeah, intensive care is 810 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 3: unrecognizable from what it was. It started off very much 811 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 3: as a machine and science and physiology based place where 812 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 3: you know, you would be put onto a machine and 813 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 3: then time would be the healer. And we've kind of 814 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 3: been through three iterations I think with intensive care. In 815 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 3: the early days, we thought doing more was the best 816 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 3: thing we could do, So we would put more and 817 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 3: more oxygen, more and more fluids, more and more blood 818 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 3: into somebody to try and maximize their survival. And then 819 00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 3: when we went through a phase of actually, no, you know, 820 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 3: in all these things actually cause aggregate harm rather than good, 821 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 3: and so we got to a phase of just trying 822 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 3: to keep things normal. And now I think it's fair. 823 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 3: We're in a phase of intensive care where actually we 824 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 3: allow your physiology to be abnormal because it's adaptive. We 825 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 3: try to do less things which cause harm. So we're 826 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 3: very much in that place now. And the advent of 827 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 3: personalized medicine is finally coming in, so we can use 828 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 3: drugs which help you know you, rather than just in trials. 829 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, intensive care is a radically different place, and 830 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 3: you know it works. There have been tens of millions 831 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 3: of people who are alive because of intensive care. And 832 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 3: even when we can't save a life, as we've talked about, 833 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,720 Speaker 3: it's also a place where we can save a death. 834 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 3: We can be honest about the things that do and 835 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 3: don't work. And you know, like with your friend who 836 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 3: had CPR. You know, unfortunately for every person who makes 837 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 3: it to hot hospital after CPR, around half of them 838 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 3: will still die. That doesn't mean doing CPR wasn't needed. 839 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 3: What it's done is give somebody a chance to see goodbye, 840 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 3: which is sometimes you know, as important. So yeah, it's 841 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,720 Speaker 3: a great place to work. I love my job. 842 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 2: I feel like your brain is this combination of science 843 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 2: and curiosity but also creativity. You are quite creative. I 844 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 2: mean you've written books, of course, but do you see 845 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 2: yourself as creative? But I mean I can make an 846 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 2: astray with clay, or I can write your ballad, But like, 847 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 2: to me, like problem solving is creativity. 848 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I definitely can't make an astray. You don't 849 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 3: need to see me dance. Yeah. I guess I struggle 850 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 3: with word creativity because but perhaps this is my conception 851 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,399 Speaker 3: of it. You know, for me, creativity comes from having 852 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 3: a structure, doing the work and hanging things and finding 853 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,360 Speaker 3: things through serendipity on that structure. And I guess you 854 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 3: know that that kind of is creativity. But I'm not 855 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 3: creative in terms of like whimsical creativity or being able 856 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,520 Speaker 3: to just pluck things out of the air. I need structure. 857 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 3: I need something to do in order to do that. 858 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 3: For example, when I was on holiday last year, I 859 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 3: reread a book I love called The Meaning of Lift 860 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 3: by Douglas Adams, same author as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe, 861 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 3: where he describes words which should exist but don't exist 862 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 3: to describe everyday experiences. And I love this book, and 863 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,440 Speaker 3: it struck me that in medicine we've got loads of 864 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 3: experiences we go through they don't have words. So it 865 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 3: was that that motivated me to start this weird idea 866 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 3: called the Dictionary of Blood and Silence, where doctors and 867 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 3: nurses submit words which should exist. 868 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 2: Creative you're absolutely creative, well and also a weirdo, but 869 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,359 Speaker 2: fuck yeah, that's much. 870 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 3: I feel much more comfortable with being interested than a 871 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 3: creative or you're a gifted weirdo. 872 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 2: I wanted before you go, and thank you so much 873 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 2: for your time. I love I love what Your second book, 874 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 2: so twenty twenty three one Medicine What Animals can teach 875 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,800 Speaker 2: us about human health with a lot of my listeners 876 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,320 Speaker 2: are big animal people, so please do tell. 877 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've long been obsessed with what's called comparative physiology. 878 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 3: In other words, how do the bodies of these crazy 879 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 3: animals work? You know? How is it you can be 880 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 3: on a flight from Perth to London and there's a 881 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 3: bird at thirty thousand feet You know how does that 882 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 3: work without an oxygen mask? Why have kangaroos got three vaginas? 883 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,719 Speaker 3: You know, these are the kind of questions that keep 884 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 3: me up at night. 885 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,720 Speaker 1: On how do I not know that? Is that bullshit? 886 00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 1: Or is that real? 887 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 3: No, it's real, It's absolutely real. 888 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,319 Speaker 1: And in fact my terrible Australian. 889 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely terrible. Yeah, I'm a much better Australian. 890 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: You know. 891 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,319 Speaker 3: Well, it's the Brits, of course, who come over and 892 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,359 Speaker 3: straight away go and see a kangaroo within within five 893 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 3: minutes of landing, so it's very standard. But it's these 894 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 3: marsupials which actually led the groundwork for the development of 895 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 3: artificial fertilization techniques. It was studying kangaroos and marsupials which 896 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 3: led to that how does a giraffe breathe? You know, 897 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,080 Speaker 3: how on earth does it manage that? And yet in 898 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 3: intensive care, if you've got pipes in which are too long, 899 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 3: we struggle to ventilate you. And yet giraffes do this 900 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 3: every day. So yeah, I became super obsessed with this topic, 901 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 3: traveled all around the world, meeting these animals in their 902 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:58,320 Speaker 3: natural environment and trying to put the lessons from animals 903 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,720 Speaker 3: into practice in human medicine, and it turns out we've 904 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 3: kind of been doing this for years. We just don't realize. 905 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 3: You know, the way we ventilate people with pipes in 906 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 3: people with asthma is actually the exact same way as 907 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 3: giraffes breathe. It's just we think we are the clever ones. 908 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 3: We've only rid it out in the last you know, 909 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 3: twenty years. Giraffe's been doing this for two hundred million years, 910 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 3: so you know, they are the clever ones. And the 911 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,320 Speaker 3: book is littered with these things. 912 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,240 Speaker 1: Really, what is their neck like two meters long or something? 913 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, two point five meters long. And not only that, 914 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 3: but it has to get blood, of course, to the 915 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 3: end of its neck where its brain is. And in 916 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 3: intensive care when people have brain injuries, we think we're 917 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,760 Speaker 3: really clever. We use drugs to increase your blood pressure, 918 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 3: to increase perfusion to your brain. The way that we 919 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,799 Speaker 3: strap pipes on doesn't block the veins in your neck, 920 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,400 Speaker 3: for example. We think we're really clever, and actually it 921 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,400 Speaker 3: turns out, well, giraffes have got the highest blood pressure 922 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 3: of all land animals. They have a systolic blood pressure 923 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,400 Speaker 3: of three hundred millimeters of mercury. They are doing exactly 924 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,440 Speaker 3: the same thing as we've worked out how to do 925 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 3: in the last fifty years or so. So yeah, basically 926 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,720 Speaker 3: animals have got there pretty much before us in most 927 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:15,879 Speaker 3: medical inventions. 928 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 2: How ironic that high blood pressure is going to keep 929 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,239 Speaker 2: them alive? Yes, you know this is probably this is 930 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 2: a bit divergent, but kind of vaguely in the same space. 931 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a fair bit of evidence 932 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,719 Speaker 2: that talks about you know, so for people who love animals, 933 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 2: you know, that can extend their life, that can lower 934 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 2: their blood pressure and heart rate, that can produce different 935 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 2: you know, chemicals, it can turn on the parasympathetic nervous system, 936 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 2: you know. So there's for people who love animals, of course, 937 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 2: and probably their animal the most, there's a real physiological impact. 938 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,839 Speaker 2: There's an impact on the immune system, you know, and 939 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,080 Speaker 2: conceivably it might make some body literally live longer just 940 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:01,240 Speaker 2: with that one variable. 941 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: So that that's fascinating. 942 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Companion animals and also now therapy animals are a 943 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 3: big topic. There's there's a chap in that book you 944 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,080 Speaker 3: mentioned which is called one medicine called Kevin Hines. Kevin 945 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 3: Hines is part of the two percent club, the two 946 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,720 Speaker 3: percent of people who jump from the Golden Gate Bridge 947 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 3: in order to die and yet survive. And that's what 948 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 3: Kevin did. And the reason Kevin is alive, Well, there's 949 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,320 Speaker 3: lots of reasons why, but the two of them relate 950 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,840 Speaker 3: to animals. First of all, he was kept suspended in 951 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,200 Speaker 3: the water by a sea lion, by a sea lion 952 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 3: called Herbert. And we know this is there's video footage 953 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 3: of it when the coast guard rescued him. So that 954 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 3: was the first thing that saved Kevin. And the second 955 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,279 Speaker 3: thing was his companion dog, who you know, did all 956 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,560 Speaker 3: of those things that you mentioned. We now have therapy 957 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 3: dogs in the intensive care unit. We had an amazing 958 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,960 Speaker 3: therapy dog who sadly di eye last yew, called Maggie. 959 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,319 Speaker 3: And the first time Maggie came into the intensive care unit, 960 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:10,080 Speaker 3: a patient tute had a massive stroke. Moved that right 961 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 3: side for the first time and they moved it to 962 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,760 Speaker 3: stroke Maggie, and Maggie was also hugely helpful for staff members, 963 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:23,439 Speaker 3: you know, for all those reasons you're outline. So yeah, 964 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,959 Speaker 3: and I think there's a quote which summarizes this the best, 965 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 3: really from a very famous philosopher who says that lots 966 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 3: of people talk to animals, but not many people listen. 967 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 3: That's the problem, and that philosopher was Winnie the Pooh. 968 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,480 Speaker 3: But that's what this book tries to correct, really, is 969 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 3: that you know, we need a reciprocal relationship. We shouldn't 970 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,399 Speaker 3: just be exploiting animals for their flesh or experimenting on them, 971 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,640 Speaker 3: and yet they then can't access the very medications that 972 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,920 Speaker 3: they have helped bring to market, for example. It's a 973 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 3: crazy setup. So yeah, it's a it's a book which 974 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,759 Speaker 3: is all about travel, crazy animals, science, and some morality 975 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 3: in there too. 976 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,240 Speaker 2: And one of the great philosophers of the twentieth century, 977 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,960 Speaker 2: we near the Pooh to set the right century. It 978 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:15,760 Speaker 2: couldn't have been the nineteenth for sure. 979 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,120 Speaker 1: It's longer. Hey, Matt, thanks for taking the time. 980 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 2: You're fascinating, and I think I saw a couple of things, 981 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 2: just some videos of you. I think also you're a 982 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 2: very good storyteller, which is nice. It's like people connect 983 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 2: with stories and you know, rather than data or like 984 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 2: the information is great, but you wrap that information, you know, 985 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 2: like just talking then about Maggie. You know, it's like, 986 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,600 Speaker 2: so here's the information. You know, animals, let me tell 987 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,520 Speaker 2: you a story about Maggie, the dog that was in Icy. 988 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's like that's such a way to bring 989 00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 2: things to a real, relatable human level, you know. 990 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,400 Speaker 3: So yeah, well the way up, and thank you for 991 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,880 Speaker 3: allowing those stories to be told. You know, through what 992 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,160 Speaker 3: you're doing that's super important. So thank you. 993 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure. I don't know whether or not you so. 994 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 2: Matt's three books are Critical One Medicine Critical So Stories 995 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 2: and Realities of Intinsive Care Medicine, the middle one one Medicine, 996 00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 2: What Animals can teach Us about Human Health, and the 997 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 2: most recent one, Last Year Go and Get Yourself nine 998 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 2: copies a second. 999 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: Act, Life after Cardiac Arrest. 1000 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,600 Speaker 2: Is there any website or any anywhere you want to 1001 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,200 Speaker 2: point people towards any other resources or anything. 1002 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm on all the usual socials apart from TikTok, 1003 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 3: I think. So. I'm doctor Underscore Matt Morgan on Twitter 1004 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 3: and Instagram, And there is a website which is Dr 1005 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,240 Speaker 3: Matt Morgan that you can find a lot of my 1006 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 3: free writing. I write some columns for medical journals. They're 1007 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 3: all on there. So yeah, you can check that out. 1008 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 1: Just quickly. Do you do corporate stuff, like, do you 1009 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: talk to corporate groups? 1010 00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 3: I've done a few. Yeah, I've done a few. Yeah, 1011 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 3: something something absolutely I can do if people are interested 1012 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,800 Speaker 3: in that, and they mostly relate to dealing with work 1013 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 3: under pressure is a big part of that. Communication, breaking 1014 00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,000 Speaker 3: back news is a big part of that, as well 1015 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 3: as the individual topics in terms of life after death 1016 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 3: for example. So those are the three which are the 1017 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,480 Speaker 3: most suitable I think for those kind of settings. 1018 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,560 Speaker 2: And we got through a whole hour without an interruption 1019 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 2: from a kid or a canine. 1020 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 1: So well, you. 1021 00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 3: Can't see under the table luckily there's no kids, but 1022 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 3: there's definitely a canine. 1023 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you. Well say goodbye here, but Matt, 1024 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the new project. 1025 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 3: Lovely to see you.