1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Ruhle. This is Life and Crimes. As we speak, 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: the jury in the trial of Greg Lynn continues to deliberate. 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: We have here our Ace Court reporter Miles Proost, who 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: has run all the way from the Supreme Court to 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: talk to us to fill us in on what's going on. Miles, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Life and Crimes. Tell us more. 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: Thanks Andrew, great to be here. So the jury has 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: just completed their third full day of deliberations. They were 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 2: sent out on Friday afternoon last Friday, but they actually 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: started deliberating on Monday last week. We had the judge's 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: charge and this is his legal directions that he provides 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: the jury and that took up over a day I think. 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: So after that they were sent out on Monday and 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 2: now we're at the third day. 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything you can say about the judges charge? 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: So that's the legal directions that he's actually telling the 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: jury what the legal sort of basis for how they 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: should consider that evidence. Interesting thing that came out of 19 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: that is he told the jury they would no longer 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: consider a charge of manslaughter, So this was an alternative 21 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: charge to murder. So if the jury found miss DeLine 22 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: not guilty of murder, they would then have to consider 23 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: a charge of manslaughter as part of their deliberations, but 24 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: now they will no longer. 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,279 Speaker 1: Have to do this reason being So. 26 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: The reason for that is the judge explains to them, 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: was that counsel and he had agreed that if they 28 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: couldn't convict miss de Lne on murder, there would be 29 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: no basis for them to convict him on manslaughter. So 30 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: they just say it's sort of accident or nothing essentially. 31 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, an all or nothing defense. 32 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: Well I think it Actually, I think it makes the 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: juri's job a bit easier. They don't have to consider 34 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: this alternate charge. Now it's just the first charge, and 35 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: there are elements of the murder charge. So the four 36 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: elements of the charge against mister Lynn is that he 37 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: caused the act, that he did so consciously, voluntarily and deliberately, 38 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: and that he intended to kill or cause serious injury 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: and it wasn't in self defense. So those are the 40 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: four elements that the jury must consider when they of 41 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: this charge, and the prosecution must prove those four elements 42 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: beyond reasonable doubt for the jury to convict Misdeln. So 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: Justice Croutcher also summarized the evidence of the forty nine 44 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: witnesses the jury heard from seventeen days, and that included hunters, campers, 45 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: family and friends of the missing campers, police forensics experts, 46 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: and Misdelin himself. And he said, as part of considering 47 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: their evidence, the jury must consider their credibility and their reliability. 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: So the credibility of a witness is if someone is 49 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: telling the truth and being honest, whereas reliability is if 50 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: they were recalling things correctly. So a witness can be 51 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: you know, the credibility can be good, that can be honest, 52 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: but they might have a bad memory, or they might 53 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: be forgetting things, and that's related to their reliability. The 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: judge said, in reaching a verdict, the jury must be 55 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: put aside all other sort of considerations, So that's things 56 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: like bias or feelings of sympathy or prejudice. He gave 57 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: some examples such as feeling sympathy towards mister Hill and 58 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: missus Clay's family, believing that their affair was morally wrong, 59 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: or believing that mister Lynn's actions in covering up their 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 2: deaths was terrible. He said, your function and your duty 61 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: is to use your heads, not your hearts. So that 62 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: was over two days Thursday and half of Friday. The 63 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: charge was finished about twelve thirty on Friday, but because 64 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: the jury only sits half days on Fridays, they decided 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: to return on Monday to start deliberating, and that's what 66 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: they've done. So we've had three days now it's Wednesday afternoon, 67 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: and on Wednesday the jury had requested copies or recordings 68 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: of mister Lynn's evidence and the evidence of a ballistics 69 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: expert with Victoria Police, a guy called Paul Griffith's yep, 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: Paul Griffith. He's a ballistics expert with vic Pole and 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: he conducted testing on mister Lynn's shotgun, some of the 72 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: trajectory testing. And he's also the officer who brought mister 73 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: Lyn's shotgun into court and it actually showed to the 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: jury how it worked. He's also the one who he 75 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: didn't mean to, but he's pointing at the journalists at 76 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: the other end of the table, and the judge quipped 77 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: and asked him to turn it around so it was 78 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: facing the wall instead. 79 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: That was nice of me. He shouldn't point guns at anyone, 80 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: even if they're empty. Here a lapse on his part. 81 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I wasn't in court that day, I was covering 82 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: it on the link. But I don't think anyone wants 83 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: to gunpointed at them. So as part of their deliberations, 84 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 2: the jury will be in the jury room. There's small 85 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: rooms that are next to the court rooms that are 86 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: set aside for juries to deliberate in. There's usually a 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: table and chairs and they can have access to coffee 88 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: and that sort of thing. And inside those rooms, we 89 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: don't know what they'll do. There's any number of ways 90 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: they could discuss the evidence or reach their verdict. But 91 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: they will have access to all the exhibits that were 92 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: presented during the trial. So that's things such as like photographs, footage, 93 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: diagrams and maps. And just as I mentioned earlier, they 94 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: requested recordings of these two witnesses evidence as well, which 95 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: was granted. They'll be given those recordings on a USB 96 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: and they'll be able to play that as they want. 97 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: What's the gender split on the jury. 98 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: Six men and six women age? The real mix that 99 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: there is from I would say in their twenties or 100 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: thirties right up to older fifties, sixties, even older. 101 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: I think background a real mix as well. 102 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: It's a very diverse jury, I must say. 103 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: Interesting, that's modern Australia, it really is. Yeah. 104 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And as part of that charge last week we 105 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: also had a balloting of process. So initially in this 106 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: trial there was fifteen jurism paneled. One of them became 107 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: sick halfway through the trial, so she was excused and 108 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: then we had fourteen left at the end of the trial. 109 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: But of course only twelve can return a verdict, so 110 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: as part of this process, two of them were randomly 111 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: balloted off. And the way this works is that all 112 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: the juris have a number. It's put in a little box, 113 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: and then some of the associates, so the people who 114 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: help out the judge, they pulled out two numbers and 115 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 2: those two people were excused from the jury. 116 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: Two men. Yeah, So justices are very scientific and painstaking process, 117 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: and yet ultimately a jury verdict could be swayed by 118 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: which name came out of the box, because if two 119 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: of them came out who were red hot on one 120 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: answer or the other, they could sway the entire jury. 121 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: It's just luck of the drawer, that's right. 122 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: The verdicts have to be unanimous, so all it takes 123 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 2: is one person whose mind has been made up can't 124 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: be talked around, and that could result in a deadlock, 125 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: which would result in a hung jury and a new 126 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: trial if it came to. 127 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: That, which no one wants, not at all. 128 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: Last time we spoke on Tuesday, Defense Barrister Dermot Dan 129 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: was still delivering his closing address yep. So that continued 130 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: on Wednesday, and he had a real go at the prossution. 131 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: I think we spoke about this last time. He said 132 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: there was seventeen low lights of their case. Well, he 133 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 2: continued last Wednesday, saying there was no evidence to prove 134 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: the charges against his client. He said the jury were 135 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: being asked to find a man guilty of murder on 136 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: a case that had no factual basis, no factual foundation, 137 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: and zero motive. He continued on about some of these 138 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: failures of the prosecution case and that included things that 139 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: was said in Daniel Portrait of the Crown Prosecutor's closing 140 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: address that weren't put to mister Lynd during cross examination. 141 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: So mister Dan said this broke rules of fairness and 142 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: it essentially boils down to mister PORTRADEU said some things 143 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: that I guess allegations that he never gave mister Line 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: an opportunity to do to respond to, and so a 145 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: lot of mister Dan's criticism was around. 146 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: That, around the actual verbal tactics employed by the prosecution. 147 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: Parent failure to put things to mister Lynd during cross examined, 148 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: so he had a chance to respond. 149 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: To as an experience court reporter, do you feel that 150 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: the prosecution has been outgunned? 151 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: Well, the judge in his charge actually made a point 152 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: about this and said there were failures in the prosecution 153 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: case to not put some of these allegations or things 154 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: they've said in their closing address to mister Lyne during 155 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: cross examination. The judge during his charge made a point 156 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: of this and noted that the prosecutor had failed to 157 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: put some of these things to mister Lynn, and he 158 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: did give some legal directions about that. 159 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: So miles way too from here, what's happening. 160 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: Look, it's just a waiting game at this point. We 161 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: don't really know what's going to happen next. We don't 162 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: know how long the jury will take to reach a verdict. 163 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: But the way it works for us is we hang 164 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: around the court, we get notified that has been reached 165 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: and we usually don't have much time to get to 166 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: the courtroom, but we're just hanging out waiting for that. 167 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: When that comes through, that message comes through, we will 168 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: race straight to the court and take our seats. And 169 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: there's others as well who were who hang around the court. 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: Some of the police officers involved in the case, they've 171 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: been around. We have an office in the Supreme Court, 172 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: so we're just in them working on other things. I 173 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 2: have been covering other cases as well, but it's just 174 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 2: a matter of having your emails open and making sure 175 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: you're ready to go. 176 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: So it's all by email. It is. Yep, you wouldn't 177 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: want to get forgetful. Well, thanks for coming all the 178 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: way back to the office, to this office, to the 179 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: soundproof room in the cone of silence to talk to us. 180 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: Thanks Andrew. The next time we speak will probably be 181 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: whenever it it has been reached. 182 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: That will be perfect. I look forward to it. Thanks 183 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: for listening. Life in Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun 184 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 185 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: For my columns, features and more, go to Heraldsun dot 186 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: com dot au forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For 187 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot 188 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: com dot au. That is all one word news podcasts sold. 189 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: And if you want further information about this episode, links 190 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: are in the description.