WEBVTT - Webb of crime. Part 2 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:06.880 Isn't it funny how people with deviant tendencies of any sort, stealing, 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.960 whatever it is, they repeat themselves to their thieves, their frauds, 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:15.320 they embezzel, they murder, they cheat on their wives, et cetera, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:16.919 et cetera, their crooked in every way. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.160 Yeah, it's like maybe they can't exist unless they're doing 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:21.720 something shady or like just. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:22.840 The nature of the beast. 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.880 It was actually about money, because what it was most 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.400 crimes about love, sex, money, jealousy. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.120 Welcome to Life and Crimes with Andrew Ruhl. Last week 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.920 we spoke to Emily Web about her new book, Murdering 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.680 the Suburbs, and this week she's back again with some 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:45.520 more stories from that book. I think about some poisoning cases. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.159 Hello Emily, Hello Andrew. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.440 Now talking about poisoning cases. I can think of a 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.040 case that you haven't done here, but we've done it before, 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.480 and that's of Lorraine Moss of Bendigo, who wasn't her 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.680 husband because she was having an affair with one of 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.600 these workmates. You've got a story. I think that they're 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.520 with chocolates, which may also involve poisonings. What's the background 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:11.080 of that one? 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.319 Well, I find poisonings really fascinating and I have listened 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.080 to your episodes on Yeah, Lorraine Mossat was a really 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:23.000 interesting case. Now, this this chapter came about because there 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.960 was a case in the early nineteen eighties that was 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.080 pretty widely reported. It was a case of a box 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:34.319 of poisoned strych nine laced chocolates being sent from Sydney 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:40.160 to Germany with the intent to be sent to this woman, 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.360 like a six year old woman who lived in a 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.760 little town near Cologne. 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:48.400 But what was that about. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.120 Well, these chocolates got sent from Sydney and they were 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.160 sent not directly to this woman, Mary Anne sir. This 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.600 was in nineteen eighty three, I believe nineteen eighty four, 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.040 because it took a while to sort of uncover what 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:07.040 was happening. And they were sent from a family in 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.840 Sydney or a man in Sydney by proxy, though he 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.360 got someone he knew they were born in what was 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.440 known as the Czech Republic back then, got a friend 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:19.840 to send them to someone in Cologne who was a jeweler, 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.480 actually a checkborn jeweler. But there was a note inside 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.600 to say, hey, could you send these on to this person? 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.720 Marianne sure, he's fifty bucks for your trouble. But they 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.680 didn't read the note and they got stuck into the 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.000 chocolates in the jewelry shop. But very quickly they realized, oh, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:38.840 there's a discussing. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:39.160 One. 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.840 The jeweler who opened them was incredibly sick, like he 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.000 could have almost died, and stricken will do that, Like 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.079 it's a horrible way to die, Like it's almost like invola, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.800 like an exorsust type thing, like an involuntary body movements 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.240 and yeah, and so they were sick, and it's like, well, 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.880 what the hell's going on here? And the police were called. 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.919 They're like, well, why would someone want to send this 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.680 to a little old lady in a you know, cologne 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.600 back story? Backstory? So they're tracking it back. So who 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:16.919 does she know Insyney? Which it's nineteen eighty four actually, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.280 so that was when it was sent. 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.200 Would it be some post war treachery, you know, where 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.720 somebody or other sold out somebody else to the Nazis 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:26.360 or any of that? 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.600 I wonder, Well it was actually about money, because what 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.600 it was most crimes about love, sex, money, jealousy. So 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.160 Marianne sure her niece lived in Sydney and her niece 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.800 was married to a man called Milan Nakuda, and Marianne 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:43.480 had been out on a trip the year before to 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:48.720 Australia visiting family. And what they worked out is it 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:53.560 was sent because they were hoping that the woman who 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:58.120 was the niece of marian Sr Would possibly be named 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.320 in the will like the like you know, had a 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.200 stake in the will because this woman she didn't have 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.360 her own children, she had nieces. She had discussed probably 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.880 some of the stuff when she was in Sydney. One 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.600 of her nieces. She had left a lot of money too, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:13.920 but had this niece had been in the Church of 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.040 Scientology and she was like, I don't want my money 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.960 going to a church. So there was some assumption that 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.280 Haiki Hiker I don't know how to pronounce, that who 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.880 was the niece would be a beneficiary of the will. 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.880 But Milan, her husband, who was born in the Czech 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:36.200 Republic and had migrated to Australia from South Africa in 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.279 the late nineteen seventies, he actually was the one who 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.600 initiated this. There's no suggestion that Hiker knew anything about this, 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.479 so it basically involved so police in Cologne. There was 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.640 a police like inspector and then he had to get 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.760 in contact with police in Sydney. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.760 New South Wales an International. 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:59.039 It was really fascinating and you know, it turns out 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.919 that so they're like, okay, Milan Nakuda, what the hell's 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.720 going on here? He claims he was forced to send 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.120 them some men like had threatened him and he's you know, 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.440 his wife and daughter young daughter at the time, and 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.240 he was forced to send them. But it turns out 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:20.520 that Milan had a pretty shady past, like pretty dirty past. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.480 He actually had been jail for murder in South Africa. 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.479 He murdered his wife's lover when he found them in bed. 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.240 He killed the man and burnt his body and he 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.400 did a bit of jail time. So I'd moved to 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:39.279 South Africa from Czechoslovakia, which was still under communist rule 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.599 back then. And yeah, like he had done his jail time, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.880 but then the Australia he got to Australia, I don't 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.080 think he was very truthful, but he was actually also 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.839 wanted when he left South Africa on fraud charges because 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.560 he was taking money in under the guise of travel 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.760 agentsport Well, yeah, I don't know, did they check that 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:01.880 back then, I don't. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.919 Well, just pre computer, it just falls into the old 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.320 paper world where stuff could be forged. 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.479 And yeah, I guess you could. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:12.159 You wouldn't be flagged immediately. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.359 No, And he actually was. He fled under. He was 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.760 wanted for like defrauding people out of money for a 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.840 cruise that never existed. So he came to Australian who's 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.919 working as a computer analyst. And he'd been married I 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:25.840 think a few times. 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.680 Isn't it funny how people with deviant tendencies of any sort, stealing, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.719 whatever it is, they repeat themselves. Their thieves, their frauds, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.360 they embezzel, they murder, Yeah, they cheat on their wives, 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:42.479 et cetera, et cetera. They're crooked in every way. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.320 Yeah, it's like maybe they can't exist unless they're doing something. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.119 Shady or like just the nature of the beast. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:49.920 I find it fascinating. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.480 And so they're parking disabled spot, do a. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.720 Fraudulent like disability badge or different things like that. But 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.760 the German police, the Cologne police and the New South 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.360 Wales police, they were working together. There was some you 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:07.320 know issues, I guess probably, yeah, fax machines like pre computer. 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.120 True fact, machines and so the upshot. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.600 Well, this Milan Nicuda got arrested. They took over the 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:14.880 investigation yet. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.360 From sort of police arrested in though, is it two 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.960 detectives But it's not a homicide job. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:25.000 No, because she wasn't She wasn't murdered. And the charged 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.040 he was charged with was something that had been enacted 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:29.440 in like nineteen hundred, but. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.080 Never sending something, sending something. 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.320 Maliciously delivering a noxious substance through the mail. It was 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.680 the first time that charge was used since it was 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.480 introduced in nineteen hundred. So yeah, Milan Nicuda is. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.480 Probably still on the statute. Some of the people who 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.800 send letters to me, she'll be charged under that substances. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.360 Do you get the strange letters, like handwritten. 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:54.920 That are with capitals underline, Yeah, and sometimes different colored pins. 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.680 I guess they're like sometimes very neat is a serial 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.080 killer or a mass killer? Right to me? Regularly? Oh, 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:05.760 it's very neat. It's got good penmanship, just neat, neat, interesting, 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.640 not so much neat and tidy, but a little bit 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:10.920 young looking. 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.400 Okay, I think I know the person. 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:14.640 You probably don't. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:15.320 I have an idea. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.080 Yeah, been in jail a long time, yes. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.440 And we'll probably never get out right. Possibly back to 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.320 the story, Milan Nakuda went to court the witnesses in 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.160 Germany literally at the airport waiting to fly out to 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.760 give evidence, but last minute he pled guilty to the 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.839 charge and he actually got eighteen years imprisonment with a 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.960 twelve year non parole period and was granted parole. I 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.199 checked nineteen ninety five, so we did nineteen eighty eight 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.920 to ninety five, So did a fair whack and then 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.400 was look, I was trying to find out exactly, but 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.319 it required some files and I would have I do 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.400 like he was most likely deported afterwards, because they do. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.400 I've done cases before where you know, there's been the perpetrator, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.880 they've done their time and they're like deported back to 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.160 Scotland or something. But it's sometimes a bit hard to 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.760 get that information. Yeah, but it was definitely, And there's 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.720 a few other cases. I could have actually written I 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.240 reckon a whole book on poison chocolates. There was a 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.280 lot of case. There's just a lot of cases when 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:16.959 you're losing at the archives. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.240 Yeah, so you've got more than that case. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.040 Yeah, there's a few others. There's one from a church 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.360 going lady in Florida who sent poison laced fudge to 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.600 her church congregation because she was just, you know, feeling 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.640 a bit slighted by them the Bible class. They're all sick. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:34.360 That could happen. 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.400 And another one in nineteen forties in Melbourne where a 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.360 woman sent it to her cousin, but she used really 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.960 old rat poison and it wasn't going to work. So yeah, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.719 but there's a lot of poisonings like a big, a 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:52.240 big thing as we know of recent time. Yeah, because 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.599 that Lorraine Moss case was really fascinating and there was 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.200 Emily Perry. I think back in the sixties. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.599 It's always every generation seems to have had, you know, 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.240 a couple. It's a thing, the Mushroom case. The book 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.680 I think, the Finnish book which the plot is sort 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.960 of rests, is called The Man Who Died. It's translated 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.800 from the Finnish into English, and if anybody out there 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.080 wants to read the book, that probably inspired the Mushroom murders. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.880 That's the one boy that led to a series and 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:31.480 some sort of Netflix or whatever candy type drama series. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.280 So I think our Aaron might have been a big 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.680 fan of that sort of stuff. Listeners. Obviously we're talking 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.000 about this before the verdict in the Patterson case, the 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:41.760 Mushroom case. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.880 Yeah, I just I would be interested to know what 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.160 sentence Aaron gets. I think it'll be pretty hefty. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.320 It will be. And yet again it's funny. What else 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.480 has happened in the past. I think John Sharp who 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.960 killed his wife and child with a speak a most 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.240 terrible crime and cut them up and put them in 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.640 the tip. I think he got thirty three years. But 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.040 another fellow called Mark Smith burnt this is and it's 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.400 cold blooded. He's not mad, he's just cold blooded. He 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.960 took up with another woman, and he planned it methodically 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:21.719 that he would stage the burning of his house in 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.560 Hoppers Crossing and Bernie's wife and ten weeks old child, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.160 and he'd set up a candle to make it look 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.160 as if the candle had fallen over. He got an 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.400 anesthetic like ether and knocked his wife out and set fire. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.040 Now the idea was the fire was going to kill 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.160 her and the baby, so they weren't dead, they were 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.720 going to burn to death. And he left, went to work, 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.680 you know, pretended nothing had happened. And then he gets 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.000 to call, oh, your house on fire. Well, it's terrible, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.079 and he rushes back, expecting to find them both dead. Well, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.079 the baby was dead, burnt to death, and his wife 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.480 had woken up somehow and escaped. She lost Anne and 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.839 was terribly badly burnt, but she survived. Wow, that bloke 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.839 who has murdered his own child tried to murder his 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.600 wife in cold blood? What do you think? He got 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.319 twenty two? But that's all I mean, he didn't get 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.920 He didn't get twenty nine or thirty two or thirty five, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.440 Like when was it was this, like only fifteen years ago? 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:24.560 Yeah, maybe maybe thirty I would have, Yeah, twenty, Yet twenty. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:29.200 I can't see why he's worth only two thirds of sharp. Yeah, 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.280 I don't understand some of the sentence. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.839 I've learned a lot actually from listening to, you know, 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.319 the different coverage of the trials. I really love the 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.679 fact that podcasts are covering trials. I started listening to 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.800 the Lucy let Be trial a few years back that 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.960 the Daily Mail did, and I think it's really important. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.719 But I think the interest is so much obviously the 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:52.200 mushroom case that Aaron Patterson cases sparked so much interest. 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:53.880 But I think it's actually really good for people to 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.959 understand the criminal justice system, you know, Like so it's 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.000 got a bit of an education focus as well. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.480 How long did it take you to do your most 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:04.440 excellent book, Murder in the Suburbs. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:09.120 Well, I'm I'm a pretty slow rider, unless I've got 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:14.920 the looming threat of a deadline flaming of my backside. Look, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.320 it probably I took a bit longer because I had 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:18.839 a bit going on last year and I had a 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:25.640 child in BC at doing year twelve. Look, probably ten months. 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.040 I mean I could have done it quicker, maybe eleven months. 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.880 I Yeah, I've done it because you know, like I 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.040 wor bills. Yeah, it's like you know, night times and 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.160 early mornings. Like, look, some of the chapters in there 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.280 are ones that I've written years ago, and like you know, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.920 you go back and improve it, you like, update it. 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.040 Some of some of the cases the ones that people 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.880 you know have heard about, but at the time I 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.839 was writing about them, I just was really interested in them. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.120 Like the Matthew de Gruci he is now out in jail. 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:54.160 That's the opening story. 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.839 Yeah, who murdered his mother and siblings. And it's like, well, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.160 I always say why, why would you do that? Like 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.719 battered them to death? Like brutally. I was like, what 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.839 possesses someone? I'm not saying that myself. I could be 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:13.480 capable of something put under enough pressure. I think we are. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.800 But you know, just it's like what the hell? Like 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:17.840 I want to know the why, But sometimes you don't 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:18.439 find out the why. 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.360 Do you know? Sometimes there is no obvious reason, and 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.840 other times I suspect there's something deep and it's just 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.400 not to make excuses for people, but often there's something 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.480 bad happened to them when they're young themselves. Yeah, probably 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.480 three out of four that's the case, I think. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.040 Particularly, I know a lot of the cases I have 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.280 listened to you talk about, and you've written about the 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.520 men who came up through the boys institutions. I mean, 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.000 the damage done there. You can't deny that. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.880 Yeah, the stone killers, absolute cold blood of killers nearly 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.360 always have suffered in those sort of places. Yeah, probably 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.720 those places or at schools, yep, and it just whoops 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.240 them when they stay whooped. Yeah. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.120 Well, I work in my day job is to do 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.760 communications and advocacy for an organization that provides mental health 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.680 services and really good you know, NDAs stuff, and you 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.520 know a lot of forensic disability. They do work with 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:15.800 a lot of forensic disability stuff, and you know, there's 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.360 a lot to be said about you know, when a 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.160 child is in their first three years of life, if 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:27.480 attachment is disrupted, it completely changes the brain and also 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.240 then how that person sees the world and in track. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:35.240 So sometimes you think, well, no, wonder you know there's 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.280 stuff like that happening. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:38.840 Or you know, dysfunctional, disjointed. 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.560 Yeah, yeah, just just not able to formulate relationships well 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.520 or making choices that you know aren't great. 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.960 Yeah, they're different from everybody else. Yeah, that's true. Now, Lucky. Last, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.760 if you were talking to friends about what you've just done, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.680 what's one of the others that you would pick out here? 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.000 What's the overseas when you've done? Apart from the chocolate 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:01.200 I actually. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.720 Wrote about, there was the murdering near Christmas in twenty 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:09.960 ten in Brighton of a young woman called Joanna Yates. 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.960 And look, there's sadly there are always murders, right, but 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.440 there seemed to be like a number of these kind 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:21.200 of murders in the UK that happened. And Joanna was 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.920 you know, like lived in a like a converted It 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.360 was an old house that's converted into apartments, you know, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.640 those kind of old like Victorian homes, and you know 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.040 with her lived with their boyfriend and you know, she 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.960 was a landscape gardener. Like just life was good. You 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:40.520 know her her boyfriend was away visiting family, and yeah, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.800 she just disappeared. He didn't hear from her. He was 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.280 coming home, came home, she wasn't there, and you know, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:48.960 there was a big search on, like a you know, 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.440 a young woman goes missing, We know that there's always 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.360 a lot of attention. You know, sometimes you know, other 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.920 crimes don't get as much attention, but yeah, young women 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.600 goes missing. Where is she? And they had like massive, massive, 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.480 you know investigation for the police force in that area. 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.280 And yeah, that next door neighbor who she didn't even know, 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.639 this guy who you know had a porn addiction, you know, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.440 a bit shady, but did you know he was a like, 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.919 had a very respectable job, was Dutch born, he had 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.520 a girlfriend himself. Yeah, he killed her. 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:25.280 Dutch porn addict do it everything? 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.639 Well, Yeah, when they searched through, I mean, you know, 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.160 there was a lot of stuff that wasn't great, but yes, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.560 they found poor Joanna dog Walkers founder actually and it 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.720 was near Christmas. But it took a while to arrest 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.040 this guy, Vincent Tabac. And but what happened in between 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.280 is the person who owned the building that Joanna and 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.879 her boyfriend rented the apartment and also her killer. He was, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.240 you know, a bit of a like quirky bird, you know, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.040 like English eccentric kind of thing. Christopher Jeffries. Now, what 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.960 happened in the space between you know, finding Joanna, you know, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.119 and charging someone's the British tabloids in the way they 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:08.720 do kind of well, like this guy's a perf, this 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:09.600 guy's dodgy. 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.080 Yeah, he was on like he was. The jury of 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.520 public opinion hounded the wrong led. 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.160 They actually made a TV show about it, just what happened. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.760 In Perth with the Claremont killings. They blamed, the police 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.800 blamed and made it clear they were blaming that man 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.359 who lives with his parents in and he was surrounded 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:33.040 by cameras and attention and finger pointing for a long time. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.440 And then, of course, by chance, the real killer walked 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.760 into the net. Yeah, and they blamed the wrong bloke 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:42.639 for a long time. The Perth police are got a 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.440 terrible record for that sort of stuff. They hang the 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:46.400 wrong guy over there once. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.000 I don't know. I mean obviously, like as we're recording this, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.960 you know, there's been that terrible murders of the two 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.760 police officers in Northeast Victoria, and I always think, God, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.920 what a bloody hard job. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:01.200 Oh terrible. 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.680 But sometimes when you're researching, you and there's there's just 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.520 like I was rewatching Line of Duty, you know, the 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:07.560 the UK series. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:07.920 I love that. 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.200 My husband actually was a police officer and isn't really 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.119 that into crime, but we've been watching it and I 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:17.280 just thought, you know, corrupt police. It's really bad because 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.480 it's such a breach of trust. It's a bleach of 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.960 like it's really shocking, like when you just fit someone 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.920 up for very bad you know, cold blooded and it's yeah, 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.399 that's about yeah, and it's just so it's such a 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.439 letdown to the community. Back to the story, This man 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.960 Chris Jeffreys, and look, he was a bit eccentric, had 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:39.160 wild white hair, you know, very smart. He was questioned 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.600 obviously because he's a landlord, you've got a question him. 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.480 But he was arrested, questioned, released without charge on police 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:48.800 bail for a bit. But when news broke about that, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.760 the tabloids just zeroed in, you know, calling him a 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.560 creepy loaner, peeping Tom in newspapers. He ended up actually 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.760 getting some compensation for that, you know, and TV series 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.960 was made about it, about his ideas. You know, once 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:09.119 it started going, it was like, and you know, they 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.600 you are physically under a lot of threat if people 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.960 think you're responsible for something. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.760 Of course you know you can't. But yeah, but that 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.520 was a really down hotels and things. Oh god, Yeah, 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:26.320 you didn't see outside of sign where a doctor who 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.440 looked after children sign saying that he was practicing pediatrician 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.879 and the plebs all thought it is a pedophile. They 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:40.399 carried signs and through rotten exacting or something. That's the 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:41.480 great unwashed. 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.840 I know, I did see something online it made me laugh. 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:44.000 You know. 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.040 They're painting the George Cross on roundabouts in the UK 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.800 at the moment. In England, some of them had accidentally 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.800 painted the Danish flag, just got the colors reversed. I'm like, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.159 stay in school, kids, like that's what you need. But 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.000 you know, the upshot of this was that you know, 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.399 a family like Vincent to back was convicted. He's got 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.919 a very very long stretch. I probably won't get out. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.720 I mean, I think in the UK they do tend 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.240 to do pretty long sentences. The Constable, the Chief Constable 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.879 of Avon and Somerset Police gave an official apology to 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.080 Christopher Jeffries. He you know, won apologies and substantial damages 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.639 from eight newspapers, so it was across the board. 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.399 It wasn't just one news leaking stories to the papers 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:27.639 some of. 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.640 The Yeah, but what's really nice, I guess a nice 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.879 way to end a very tragic story is Joanna was 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:38.480