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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another episode of Fox Crickets podcast

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Speaker 1: The follow On. My name is Courtney Walsh. I'm a

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Speaker 1: senior journalist for Fox Sports based in Melbourne. Delighted to

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Speaker 1: be joined today by Kerry o'keef like twenty four tests

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Speaker 1: for Australia and has been a long time member of

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Speaker 1: the Fox Cricket family. Fresh from Adelaide and straight home

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Speaker 1: for Christmas. Carry, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm good, Cotney, Yeah, mate, enjoy and enjoying this Ashes

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Speaker 2: series and looking forward to Boxing day of course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Getting out of Adelaide yesterday it went for a

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Speaker 1: bit longer than I suppose a few of us expected.

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Speaker 1: The English shows some resistance. I'm not sure what time

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Speaker 1: he got to the airport, but afterwards we saw picks

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Speaker 1: of the Aussies on the ground with their families. They

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Speaker 1: were clearly you know, reveling in and Ashes retain within

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Speaker 1: eleven days, the quickest on Australian soil. Did you see

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Speaker 1: any of the after Martha? Were you queen to get

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Speaker 1: out of Adelaide and get home?

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Speaker 2: No, we were on flights virtually straight away. But I've

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Speaker 2: seen it on social media, really enjoyed it. I thought

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Speaker 2: they might delay the celebrations till after the series, but

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Speaker 2: with Travis Head leading the way, it was mad Monday,

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Speaker 2: so but good on. I mean, nobody expected it to

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Speaker 2: be done within eleven days, so it's been quite emphatic

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Speaker 2: and really, to be honest, England have had their moments.

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Speaker 2: It's three nil and it's such a short time praying

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Speaker 2: for the Ashes to be decided. But England have missed

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Speaker 2: so many opportunities where they've been in positions so they

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Speaker 2: should have done. They could have closed the deal and

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Speaker 2: they didn't. I don't think they're over Perth where they

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Speaker 2: led by one hundred and five with nine we gets

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Speaker 2: in hand and got beaten four hours later. I think

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Speaker 2: that hangover remains in the day night that they were

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Speaker 2: three fo one hundred and seventy. Should have got four

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Speaker 2: fifty in their first innings that was part and they

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Speaker 2: only got three thirty. And then they bowl the whole

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Speaker 2: heap of fruit and Australia went past five hundred and

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Speaker 2: then they didn't hold their catches in Adelaide again and

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Speaker 2: it costs them. They actually finished the game very strongly.

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Speaker 2: They took six for thirty eight and pinned their is

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Speaker 2: back trying to mow Down four thirty five and they

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Speaker 2: may have fancied their chances at some stage on that

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Speaker 2: last morning, but in the end it was a bridge

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Speaker 2: too far. But three nil is probably a reflection. But

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Speaker 2: from English point of view, they've played a little bit

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Speaker 2: better than that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering whether we start with English first the reactions,

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Speaker 1: or do we go with the good news the Australians.

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Speaker 1: What would you prefer?

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, I'd rather go with the Australians. I think

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Speaker 2: they've been I think their left hand and this has

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Speaker 2: been such an advantage. One of the barometers as a

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Speaker 2: bowler is how well you bowl to left handed batsman.

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Speaker 2: I mean I found it difficult and it was my

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Speaker 2: it was my testing material. I was a right arm

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Speaker 2: boler just I was fazed by left handers. And there

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Speaker 2: has been a number over the years. I mean Dennis

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Speaker 2: Lee was one who didn't like bowling left and Richard Hadley.

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Speaker 2: They are a problem for some right hand bowlers, and

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Speaker 2: I sense that this English team, if you look at

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Speaker 2: the numbers, all the Australian left handers, Travis Head, Alex Carey,

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Speaker 2: Mitchell Stark, Osmond Kowaja in the last ten have all

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Speaker 2: plundered them. And yet whenever you watch them they're bowling,

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Speaker 2: they look a lot more comfortable bowling to right handers

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Speaker 2: the Englishman, but all the big runs have come from

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Speaker 2: left handedness, and it is highlighted how undisciplined in inconsistent

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Speaker 2: the England bowlers are when they bowled.

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Speaker 1: I might just solve quickly on the technical side of that,

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Speaker 1: because you know, coming you look, I suppose at left

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Speaker 1: foot is playing AFL football Hawthorne on a premiership going

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Speaker 1: back a long time ago, with a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: left handers in tennis, not many around, but they you

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Speaker 1: know that that line of sighte the ball swinging out

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Speaker 1: to the ad quarters is a pretty hard one to

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Speaker 1: return for even the very best.

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Speaker 2: What is it?

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Speaker 1: You know? I suppose they make up ten or so

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Speaker 1: percent of the population or whatever that stastic is. And

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Speaker 1: yet here we are an Australian team with well with

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Speaker 1: some outstanding batters and is it just the line? What

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Speaker 1: what is it about that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but I mean I've looked into it.

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Speaker 2: The four sports where left hands left handedness is a

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Speaker 2: distinct advantage outside cricket, which I think it is a

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Speaker 2: distinct advantage fencing, baseball, table tennis, and boxing. So if

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Speaker 2: you're left hander who's looking for a sport, they're they're

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Speaker 2: the four. I would try table tennis in particular, and fencing.

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Speaker 2: If you want to go to the Olympics and you're

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Speaker 2: a khaki hander, they're your sports. Americans try baseball. There

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Speaker 2: are sports that don't a bandage left handers. One is golf,

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Speaker 2: of course, but yeah, look, I just think it's a

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Speaker 2: big thing. I know, as you said, what are they

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Speaker 2: nine or ten percent of the population, But there are

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Speaker 2: four sports where they have huge advantages and scientific research

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Speaker 2: says that's exactly how it is. And left handers have

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Speaker 2: hurt England on this tour belading. We could take Mitchell Stark.

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Speaker 2: He's on a heater left hand over so if we

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Speaker 2: picked them all right handed side, it wouldn't be three now,

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Speaker 2: But we were never going to I.

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Speaker 1: Was going to say, I wonder if we'd wonder if

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Speaker 1: there's there's something that when you're looking at juniors coming

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Speaker 1: through and trying to put more put more work into it.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean, if I'm given a choice of a

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Speaker 2: right hander or a left hander, I'm being a left hander.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep, it's that little extra ten percent. Do cricketers

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Speaker 1: have long memories carry? Because we saw Marnus Slavishane after

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Speaker 1: play talking to Fox Frickett and he clearly had heard

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Speaker 1: Suret Broad's critique of the Australian team the worst in

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Speaker 1: fifteen years Travis Head. I'm not sure if it was

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Speaker 1: west End or Cooper's draft or just water straight out

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Speaker 1: of the Torrents, but whatever it was, he posted a

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Speaker 1: cheeky little photo online suggesting he'd also not missed sure

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Speaker 1: Broad's critique beforehand. Do these little things give them extra motivation?

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Speaker 1: Doesn't make any difference.

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Speaker 2: In the middle. Adam Zampra has said as much. We

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Speaker 2: keep receeds and if you say something, they write down

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Speaker 2: the receipt. Yeah, I don't know what it is. It's

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Speaker 2: a sensitivity, but it's a motivation as well. And the

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Speaker 2: fact that this was seen as a poor Australian side

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Speaker 2: by by well Broad and a few others. This is

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Speaker 2: England's best chance of winning the app that's hazel Wood

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Speaker 2: and then they lost. And yet the school life doesn't

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Speaker 2: reflect that, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: And I guess I mean, you know, there's been a

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Speaker 1: couple of outstanding performances with the bat from from from

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Speaker 1: Travis Head, from from Alex Caring and Adelaide Usmond Kawaj

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Speaker 1: made some good runs in Adelaide when when coming back

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Speaker 1: into that team Steve Smith. You know, it got away

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Speaker 1: to a couple of decent starts. But that bowling attack,

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Speaker 1: even without Hazelwood, with with Doggett stepping up in in Brisbane,

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Speaker 1: in and in Perth, Michael Nissa delivering first Test in

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Speaker 1: three years and comes back taking five wickets. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a good indication that there's some great depth out there.

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Speaker 1: And perhaps Joy Richardson, you know it's possible given Pat Cummins'

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Speaker 1: comments after that win yesterday that he may not play

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Speaker 1: in Melbourne or certainly unlikely to play in Melbourne. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Joe Richardson is also there showing some good signs on

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Speaker 1: the comeback trail. Great depth carry.

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Speaker 2: Their philosophy is next man up and Pat Cummins has

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Speaker 2: said if one goes down as next man up and

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Speaker 2: crack on, and that's exactly what they do. And they're

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Speaker 2: they're they're a very resilient group and it's one of

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Speaker 2: their strengths. Uh And and that is why if you

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Speaker 2: know Michael Nissa accepted his fate. I mean he got

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Speaker 2: five wickets, he got a Michelle and he was never

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Speaker 2: going to play the next Test, but he accepted it.

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Speaker 2: He said, just that their culture is so strong. The

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Speaker 2: fact that he said, I accept that I may not play,

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Speaker 2: but I've had a ball playing for Australia. There's no better,

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Speaker 2: there's no headline better. Nissa h criticizes selection bolicies. There's

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Speaker 2: none of that. And he'll be in the frame to

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Speaker 2: replace Pat in Melbourne. As will Well, I dealt with

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Speaker 2: a dog at will Joy Richardson's around it the guy

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Speaker 2: I pick a Xavier Bartlett. I've looked at the numbers.

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Speaker 2: We know Scott Boland is an MCG specialist, but Xavier

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Speaker 2: Bartlet is more so. And I wouldn't be surprised if

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Speaker 2: they look at the numbers and said, gee, nobody bowls.

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Speaker 2: Boland bowls at great Pat Pat Cummins actually bowls at

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Speaker 2: best of anybody, but he's not there. Nobody bowls it

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Speaker 2: best of the alternatives than Xavier Bartlett in all forms.

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Speaker 2: So I watch out that he could be a little

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Speaker 2: smoky to make that squad. It would be a surprise inclusion.

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Speaker 1: Savior I think I had a chat to him the

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Speaker 1: start of September on up in Brisbane and he was

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Speaker 1: saying that he came from the same club as Andrew

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Speaker 1: Simon's and you know some good players out of that

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Speaker 1: area on the Gold Coast, so you know, and he's

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Speaker 1: been around the frame in white ball cricket. But he

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Speaker 1: clearly he said at the time he said he had

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Speaker 1: real intentions for red bull cricket. You really wanted to

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Speaker 1: become part of that fould.

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Speaker 2: Oh and I think he's got the goods, I mean

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Speaker 2: bells outswing for start, He's been mentored by called Chris Swan.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot of wickers for Queensland from the

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Speaker 2: Southport school. I think he's a fabulous bowl as Avia Butler,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very interested in his career path from here.

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Speaker 2: They see him as a white ball specialist at the

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Speaker 2: moment that as you say, he's offered that he'd loved

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Speaker 2: to play red ball and I think he's got the

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Speaker 2: goods and particularly this test that spread, I'd be looking

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Speaker 2: to play him alongside bowl London Star.

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Speaker 1: I suppose the big glaring question resol revolves around Nathan Lyon.

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Speaker 1: We saw him join the celebrations afterwards, I suspect with

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Speaker 1: the you know, we don't know the severity of the

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Speaker 1: hamstring tear and what that means, but I'm sure given

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Speaker 1: that he may not have been on the ales last time,

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Speaker 1: not so good for recovering from a hamstring tear or

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Speaker 1: a muscle strain. But again that at that camp, Matt

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Speaker 1: Cunuman was there and he was talking about the possibility

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Speaker 1: of making sure he was ready to go if he

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Speaker 1: was called on. And obviously, yeah, I think you like

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Speaker 1: the man in the West Rococcioli, Todd Murphy's where do

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Speaker 1: we look in terms of that for Boxing day? And

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Speaker 1: I guess the other thing and you talk about David Bartlett.

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Speaker 1: We have got after this ashes, there's a break, but

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Speaker 1: then there's an exceptionally busy workload potentially twenty one tests

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Speaker 1: sort of over eighteen months after Bengal Ish sort of

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Speaker 1: arrives in Australia in August. So what do we look

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Speaker 1: at in terms of the present with Nathan but also

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Speaker 1: perhaps you know longer term around that Australian bowling attack.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Kernerman has the jump on them in terms

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Speaker 2: of subcontinental tours. They just love they wouldn't choose like

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Speaker 2: for like if Nathan was available. They love a left

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Speaker 2: arm orthodox and by right of what he bowlsman has

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Speaker 2: his head in front of the others. But it may

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Speaker 2: be like for and I think he is a chance

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Speaker 2: to play in Melbourne. They like his face pits around

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Speaker 2: that team. They like him because he offers a bit

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Speaker 2: in the field and you just sense that they actually

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Speaker 2: quite warmed Matt Kernerman. Murphy's a better bowler in Australian conditions,

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Speaker 2: particularly on pictures that where you have your rotations are square.

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Speaker 2: He's a square spin bowler and that's why I fancy

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Speaker 2: Todd Murphy for Melbourne above Cory Rocketcolie, who's very much

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Speaker 2: a perpendic Hilla rotator. He's a bounced baller. His best

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Speaker 2: work is done at the whacker. Not to say he

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Speaker 2: wouldn't buy will in Melbourne, but by just sense, Todd

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Speaker 2: Murphy's record at the MCG is pretty good. He takes

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Speaker 2: his Test wickets at under thirty. He's only played a handful,

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Speaker 2: but that's a sign he hasn't been unsuccessful in the

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Speaker 2: Tests he's played. So I would say he'll be brought

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Speaker 2: into an enlarge squad and it just could be like

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Speaker 2: for like T Murphy because he's a Victorian, he knows

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Speaker 2: the pitch and rocket Cholie maybe more a conditions bowler

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Speaker 2: where the ball's bouncing and it's not necessarily going to

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Speaker 2: bounce at the mcg.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose the other query just in terms of

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Speaker 1: the Australian makeup, where you know we've had Kawhi should

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Speaker 1: come back in, but we think touch wood for c Smith.

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Speaker 1: You know hopefully he's he's recovered from from the issue

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Speaker 1: the Verdiego. We think it is that caused him some

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Speaker 1: issues and I think he was certainly at the ground

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Speaker 1: the last couple of days and in the nets. What

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Speaker 1: happens there it's when you're three love up and you

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Speaker 1: you've got players coming in out. I think, you know

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Speaker 1: Marnus was saying we may have used all fifteen almost

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Speaker 1: in the squad. It's it's been a little unusual. But

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Speaker 1: what do you think happens in terms of the batting order.

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Speaker 2: Well, Smith is a king at the at the mcg's

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Speaker 2: and Melbourne specialist. He would be desperate to play this.

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Speaker 2: He will see himself as going large from boxing day.

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Speaker 2: I go ahead, whether all lover Shane Smith, Smith Kwaja.

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Speaker 2: I'd keep him in there at five, Kerry six, Green

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Speaker 2: at seven, Stark at eight, Bartlet at nine, Bowland at

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Speaker 2: ten and Todd Murphy eleven. I'd leave out English and

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Speaker 2: of course Cummins and Liner bow out, but I'd retain Cowaja.

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Speaker 2: I think he's done enough and that would give him

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Speaker 2: the fairy tale finish at the scg.

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Speaker 1: Ricky is a tough sport. Bo Webster did so well

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Speaker 1: when called on, but he was called on as I

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Speaker 1: suppose it's a replacement with Green. Last year there was

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Speaker 1: some criticism at Green with the way he's gone out

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Speaker 1: at the inn in at the Gabba, didn't quite deliver

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Speaker 1: in Adelaide, but he's clearly very handy with the ball

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Speaker 1: and he has a different stages. Performed this exceptionally well

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Speaker 1: for Australia. I thought he was quite good in the

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Speaker 1: West Indies in difficult circumstances. His last couple of tests

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Speaker 1: where where does where? Where do you sit with that?

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Speaker 1: And and what about bow Webster?

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Speaker 2: Well, I like bow Webster and Green. I've not seen

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Speaker 2: a player that's seen as a generational player who hasn't

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Speaker 2: quite delivered as much as Cameron Green is I think

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Speaker 2: his height is a problem for him rather than an advantage,

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Speaker 2: so I don't see him as a three. He could

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Speaker 2: be a long term four, but he he tries, he

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Speaker 2: doesn't start quickly when he goes out to bat, so

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Speaker 2: is he a six who have to accelerate from the off?

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Speaker 2: I mean that's where carry has been a revelation. If

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Speaker 2: he bowls more, he's a seven at the moment. That's

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Speaker 2: how I see him fitting into the team. Whether they

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Speaker 2: see it that way, I don't know. But Webster's I

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Speaker 2: like because whenever I think he's played seven Tests austral

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Speaker 2: as one six so good record, yeah, and his records outstanding.

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Speaker 2: There's just question marks about his defense. He's an attacker,

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Speaker 2: but I mean, as I've noted, if you've bat six

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Speaker 2: or seven, you've got to be an attacker above everything.

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Speaker 2: He's bowling is seen as slightly better than Sheffer's shield,

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Speaker 2: but maybe short of test level. So there's a few

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Speaker 2: question marks about bow Webster and he's a fantastic fielder

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Speaker 2: of course anywhere, but the question marks remain. That's why

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Speaker 2: he's on the periphery. But he was in Adelaide bowling

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Speaker 2: in the middle, so he's obviously in their thoughts that

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Speaker 2: it's next man up. If they feel that Camon Green

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Speaker 2: needs a rest, he's ready to go. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: an interesting selection because England are going to bounce back there.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's careers on the line, and basball may

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Speaker 2: survive if the final score line is three to two,

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Speaker 2: it won't survive if it's four nil or five nil.

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Speaker 2: So careers are on the line and there'll be a

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Speaker 2: complete wipe out as the management and a number of

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Speaker 2: players who will never play again if it's four or

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Speaker 2: five nil. So that's why I feel England will bounce back.

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Speaker 2: I think there'll be something, they'll offer something, and Australia

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Speaker 2: there'll be a hangover after three nil and ashes celebration.

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Speaker 2: Not that that won't affect, but yeah, the job's been

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Speaker 2: done and Australia has a history of poor performance in

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Speaker 2: dead robbers. So if I was a betting man, I'm

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Speaker 2: having a little savor in England because they're not that

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Speaker 2: hopeless all they're not that bad.

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Speaker 1: Look, I suppose you've moved to England, so he might

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Speaker 1: just sort of touch on that. I read it among

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Speaker 1: many detailed reads which often follow I suppose a series

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Speaker 1: loss everywhere around the world. There's great stuff around for

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Speaker 1: a nasty fan. It just makes for even better reading

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Speaker 1: this morning. But there was a beautiful line in the

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Speaker 1: Guardian Kerry, so this is Christmas. How far have we come?

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Speaker 1: The ashes are over, We've still got two tests still.

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Speaker 1: The cart which I.

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Speaker 2: Quite liked, is that Barnie run.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a beautiful piece by Barney and.

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Speaker 2: He's written brilliant. He writes some brilliant stuff, lovely riding

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Speaker 2: all the way through. Yeah. Look, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: they're going to do. I think if I was I

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Speaker 2: go Crawley Duck at Bethel, Brook Stokes, Jamie Smith, cass Archer,

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Speaker 2: Tom Bashi. They need a special spinner. I'd retain Smith,

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Speaker 2: even though he's keeping. He's a very very quiet keyper.

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Speaker 2: There's no bubble in the field. But he can bat

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Speaker 2: and he proved that on that last day in Adelaide.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately Pope is just averaging sixteen or seventeen. You

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Speaker 2: can't have him going in a three. So Bethel, on

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Speaker 2: no first plass cricket and no real matches of substance

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Speaker 2: in recent times, will bat three. But they see him

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Speaker 2: as a future player, So yeah, I mean, I I

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Speaker 2: change if Ben Stokes has been so admirable, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know whether he's a captain tactically. I think he'll

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Speaker 2: have a look at his own game at the end

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Speaker 2: of this series and you know, maybe he may play

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Speaker 2: better if he's free of mind, because when you look

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Speaker 2: at his numbers in Australia, he doesn't average over twenty

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Speaker 2: eight in any form in Australia, ODIs t twenties tests.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a guy who's won Test matches off

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Speaker 2: his own bat, yet in Australian conditions his average is

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Speaker 2: so poor. So maybe Captaincy you know, confused. We'll not

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Speaker 2: confused him, but it's you know, it clouds he's thinking,

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Speaker 2: he wants to be clear of mind. I'm very interested

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Speaker 2: in what happens with Ben Stokes.

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Speaker 1: I was wondering that because I was listening to you know,

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Speaker 1: throughout the coverage Mark Wall yourself, you know, often just

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Speaker 1: just pondering or almost seem puzzled as to wife. For example,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a third man at times, and when the

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Speaker 1: words were flowing really from the left hand side for example,

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Speaker 1: and you know there was there were questions about Pad

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Speaker 1: Cummins when he came in as Australian captain. As to

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Speaker 1: as to the impact of a bowler, you captain and

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Speaker 1: given the I suppose the history of the side, his

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Speaker 1: record is phenomenal. Steve Smith obviously had the reigns for

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Speaker 1: the first two Tests and his record is the standing skipper,

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Speaker 1: is phenomenal. Yeah, been this bas ball. I suppose through

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Speaker 1: the rain. They started well, but the last couple of

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Speaker 1: years it's effectively a fifty to fifty strike rate and

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Speaker 1: the mean square the series at home against India really

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Speaker 1: some tactical concerns here. It is an interesting one that

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Speaker 1: they'll have to ponder, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely look tactically. The best girls set this series

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Speaker 2: were by Steve Smith when he captained. The worst birls

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Speaker 2: have been set by Ben Stokes because he overattacks. I

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Speaker 2: mean some of some of the English were bowling absolute filth,

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Speaker 2: but he gave them attacking fields. And that's why boundaries

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Speaker 2: Australia scored at a faster run rate than the bass balls.

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Speaker 2: And part of that is to do with Ben's setting

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Speaker 2: fields for good bowling and England bowling bad. Ben STOs

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Speaker 2: So it's not my fault, you know. I don't set

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Speaker 2: fields for bad bowling, but I think he had to

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Speaker 2: consider and on a few occasions that things weren't going well,

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Speaker 2: and he refused to set outfielders when runs were being

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Speaker 2: leaked all over the place. So yeah, I would love

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Speaker 2: to see I think the best crick Ben Stokes can play,

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Speaker 2: even though he is a warrior, is when he's just

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Speaker 2: allowed to play as a contributor. He might so no,

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Speaker 2: I love captains, but I'd love to see him play

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Speaker 2: it as a member of the eleven and he can

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Speaker 2: lead by example without the sea against his name.

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Speaker 1: Look, well, we'll just wrap it up now carry I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate you joining the follow on. But one last one.

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Speaker 1: What does Christmas brewing? How do you celebrate the day?

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Speaker 1: And did that horse get up that we heard so

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Speaker 1: much about the other day? Did it actually get there?

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Speaker 1: I must have been I wasn't in Adelaide for this one.

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Speaker 1: I had had had the screen on listening to I

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Speaker 1: wasn't sure who it was that you were backing that day.

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Speaker 2: I half on a horse that was running in a

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Speaker 2: rich race at ramwy Me and my mate owner and

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Speaker 2: it was a It ran third, but it was coming

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Speaker 2: up along the rails along the rail. It was sneaking

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Speaker 2: up under with Zach Lloyd riding absolutely feverishly that it

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Speaker 2: just failed. And look, I've apologized to my colleagues. It

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Speaker 2: was completely unprofessional of me to be cheering this horse

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Speaker 2: while cricket was being played, but it meant a lot

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Speaker 2: to me. But the horse has been good. It's a

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Speaker 2: great horse. Go on star. I love it and it

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Speaker 2: consumed me for that forse But of course when you

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Speaker 2: do something in the Fox Cricket commentary, everybody's got a

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Speaker 2: But did disrupt the commentary? I must have been because

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Speaker 2: I was yelling at goes Zach because Zach Gli was

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Speaker 2: writing and Zach probably was baddie. I wasn't cheering for him.

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Speaker 1: And Gilchris said, I think Adam Gilchrist said, I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize you were such a fan of Zach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounded that way. Go Zack, go Zack. Well

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Speaker 2: they will have a keep sort of tight squad my

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Speaker 2: eldest sons in New Zealand with his wife and grandkids.

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Speaker 2: My youngest son will come with his wife and we'll

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Speaker 2: just have a quiet Christmas lunch and I'll travel down

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Speaker 2: to Melbourne that afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Well, I really appreciate you joining the following carry. I'll

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Speaker 1: look forward to seeing you in Melbourne for the Boxing

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Speaker 1: Day test beginning well, well the day after Christmas Day.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a Thursday from memory, so just trying

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Speaker 1: to line up my dots here on Friday and it'd

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Speaker 1: be great to see you on Dick at the mc G.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you Johnny, Thanks man,