WEBVTT - Fake bands, real weapons: How Spotify is fuelling the arms race 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:10.559 Hi, I'm Daniel James, and you're listening at seven am. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.640 Spotify has transformed the way the world listens to music. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.919 But as it's grown, the company behind it and it's founder, 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.480 Daniel Eck, have been reshaping more than just the music industry. 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.000 Eck has become a key figure in the global defense industry, 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.840 investing hundreds of millions into artificial intelligence based military technology. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.760 While Spotify itself has a brace to AI, it weighs 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:37.360 many artists say undermine their work today. Author and journalist 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.880 Liz Paley on how Spotify has pursued for power and profit, 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.760 is changing music, and what listeners can do to take 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:59.200 back control. It's Friday, July eleven. Liz, thanks for speaking 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.040 with me. Is fan that Daniel Lick has just invested. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.240 I have a one billion Australian dollars into an ird 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.720 military company. You've been tracking Spotify and Daniel Lick fiez, 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.080 So can you tell me about X history when it 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:14.560 comes to investments like these? 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:15.080 Yeah. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.520 So, Daniel Ck first invested in this company called Helsing, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:25.240 which is a AI military tech company, in twenty twenty one, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.440 but not only invested in it, he also co authored 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.600 an op ed for Politico, where he was advocating for 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:38.199 increased investment into AI military technology. This latest tabline, I think, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.400 you know, it was really interesting to me because not 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:42.840 only of the dollar amount that was attached to it, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:44.840 but you know, they also announced that he'd become the 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.320 chairman of the board of this company, and Daniel Eck 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:53.200 and Spotify have really become like embedded in the defense industry. 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.720 In addition to Ck, also last year Spotify announced that 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:02.960 their new CFO with someone who had previously worked at SOB, 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.200 which is another Swedish defense company. So you know, there's 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:13.359 there's some deeper ties between Spotify and the military industrial complex, 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:14.720 even beyond just Daniel Ck. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.040 Daniel k has become very rich off the back of Spotify. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.040 He's a Brillian name many times, Eva, can you tell 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.679 me about his rise and what he first envisached for 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:26.320 the platform. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.600 Yeah, So, Daniel X's background before Spotify was in the 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.440 advertising industry. In two thousand and six, he started this 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.000 company with Martin Lawrenson, who also had a background in 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.920 the advertising industry too, and their original idea was for 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:46.839 a company that would pair advertising revenue with free streaming media. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.680 It wasn't even necessarily one hundred percent clear that this 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.480 was solely going to be a music company. I do 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.959 think that, Like, you know, over the years, it seems 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.200 like there have been attempts to kind of rebrand the 0:02:58.200 --> 0:02:59.040 co founders of. 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.480 Spotify as music guys. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.880 You know, if you look back, you can find press 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:08.080 photos of Daniel lackholding and guitar. There also was an 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.960 attempt to sort of shape this narrative that you know, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:16.919 Spotify's goal was to save the music industry. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.400 So early on, like nineteen ninety nine and naps are 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.600 changed pretty much the whole world for me. I mean, 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.880 it's the internet service that changed my life the most. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.280 I would say it's but the enfortunate part was obviously 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.359 they didn't pay artists. So really at that point when 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.680 naps are shut down, I started thinking about how can 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:34.440 you make it better? 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.120 And and you know, Spotify was leveling the playing field 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.119 for independent musicians or contributing to democratizing music and culture. 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:47.640 You know, these creators are really spectacular individual people who 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.360 want to connect, want to grow, and we want to 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:52.640 create that platform for them where they can thrive. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.040 And those are kind of like buzzwords that we heard 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.880 associated for like a lot of tech companies and platforms 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.080 in the mid twenty ten But it was important to 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.600 kind of like interrogate those those ideas a little bit 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.440 and look into, like, you know, okay, what's actually behind 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.320 this company, who's behind it, who serves to benefit from 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:13.560 the rise of streaming. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.640 We live in an age of streaming services. Headed Spotify 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.080 become the biggest music streaming service in the world, Can 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.520 you talk me through the business decisions that led to 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:25.839 that happening. 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.360 Yeah, it's a good question, because you know, they weren't 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.120 necessarily the first. But one of the things that is 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.320 unique about Spotify is a rise of the Spotify playlist 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:40.640 as a cultural phenomenon and the strategic thinking that informed 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.480 the prioritization of a playlist as a way of growing 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:48.560 their subscriber base. Twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen was this 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:53.320 sort of time where the Spotify playlist playlists made by 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.920 in house editors, had this really kind of unique cultural 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.760 ate over how people discovered music, and just in the 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.680 music industry, was considered like a really important part of 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.760 the promotion process for a new record, for example. So 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.280 artists were being convinced that these editorial playlists were going 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.800 to be an important part of how they connected with 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.520 and sort of gained new fans in some ways. Around 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.880 twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, you started to see headlines in 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:26.000 the music business press claiming that Spotify was filling its 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.400 playlists with music by artists who didn't exist, with fake 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.159 artists in order to pay out fewer royalties. You know, 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.520 the public had been calling me as fake artists. There 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.880 actually was an internal term at Spotify perfect fit content, 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.920 which is this phrase that they used to describe music 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.360 commissions to fit certain moods and playlists with improved margins. 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.279 So it's clearly a cost saving initiative in order to 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.400 kind of squeeze value in some ways out of listeners, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:06:00.120 but also musicians. There are so many different ways in 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.719 which processes of algorithmic recommendation and automated decision making have 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.159 shaped not just the sound of music, not just the 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.479 type of music, not just the reality of generative AI 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.320 music on these platforms, but shapes the way people think 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.520 about meaning in music and the way music is contextualized 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:20.440 and recommended. Spotify and other streaming services allow generative AI 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.080 content onto their platforms, and the generative a question, you 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:29.359 know only continues to be more urgent, and it says 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.520 a lot I think about the reality that you know, 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.960 not just Daniel Ck, but a lot of people who 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.560 end up in positions of power in the music industry 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.480 like aren't super. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:40.240 Interested in music. 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:45.400 They're interested in growing their wealth. So yeah, definitely not music, guys. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.760 After the break, it's your new favorite middle of the 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.200 road old country band. Even real. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:00.640 List. 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.039 We know Spotify uses AI to keep you listening on 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.880 their platform, so what do we know about their plans 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.760 for using Generative II further. 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.040 Yeah, so it's hard to like speculate about what they 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.360 might do when it comes to generative AM music on 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.040 the platform. But you know, what we do know is 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.400 that there's like tens of thousands of Generative AI tracks 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.880 being uploaded to streaming services every day, and there's been this, 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:30.120 you know, story of this viral generative AI band called 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:31.360 the Velvet Sundown. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.800 If you've been on Spotify recently, you might have seen 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.280 a band called the Velvet Sundown on your feed. Now, 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.200 at first glance, it seems like any other indie rock group, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.240 but none of their members actually exist. The Velvet Sundown 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.840 has now amassed almost one million monthly listeners, with songs 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.160 including Dust on the Wind and End the Pain among 0:07:52.200 --> 0:08:01.560 their top hits. Take a Listenstrom, you know, one. 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.560 Of the big threats of generative AI material is the 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.840 way in which it could potentially undercut the creative labor 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.640 of artists and users should be able to make informed 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.840 decisions about what they're listening to. And you could say, well, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.880 you know, people should listen more closely or do their 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.400 own research. But I think that if the technology is 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.360 there to label this material, it should be labeled because 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.800 there are so many different concerns that people in the 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.600 artist community have about generative AI, about their music as 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.880 being users training data, how it will be credited, how 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.800 they'll be compensated, how compensation might be driven down by 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.160 the existence of generative AI music on these huming platforms. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.640 More than a thousand musicians are releasing a silent album 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.200 to campaign against the British government's plans to change copyright laws, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.640 which could allow tech funds to train artificial intelligence models 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:58.360 using real performers' voices. Artists including Annie Lennox, Kate Bush, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.920 and Andrew Lloyd Webber back the campaign. They say the 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.160 changes would rev us. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.240 Right now what we're seeing is a lot of the 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.560 discourse that has sort of played out around generative AI 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.479 music has been around deep fakes. 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:11.400 I. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:19.880 At first, it's quite convincing. Creator ghost writer nine seven 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.400 seven claims the song is AI generated, artificial or not. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.920 It quickly generated real numbers over six hundred thousand streams 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.840 on Spotify before Drake's label had it pulled, and that's important. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.040 It's important that you know if someone's likeness is being used, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.679 that they have the ability to get that work removed. 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.840 But in reality, like the types of artists that are 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.040 going to have the legal muscle to actually be able 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.760 to do anything about that are pop stars, people who 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.320 have really big legal teams behind them. There's also all 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.079 sorts of ways in which generative AI undercuts the labor 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.320 of indie artists and DIY artists and smaller artists who 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.839 might not have the same name recognition or legal team 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.880 behind them to be able to take action against situations 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:04.120 like that. 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.960 Sorry for the myriad of reasons, many of which we've 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.640 touched upon, people have deact divided this Spotify accounts honest 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.560 to form their music from Spotify. But the lightest Ioli 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.480 military investment was the last strual for many people. What 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:19.280 does that tell you? 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.280 Well, you know, I think that because the economic model 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.840 is the same across the board for most streaming services, 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:26.760 I think people are going to start looking into these 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.760 other things like, well, does this streaming service have ties 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.120 to the military industrial complex? Does the streaming service use 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.080 generative AI music and not label it? I'm not someone 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.120 who is really in the business of like putting the 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.720 streaming services side by side and saying, well, this one 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.439 pays a few penny fractions more than this one, so like, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:47.839 so you should be subscribed? Here was there? Like, I 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.440 don't really like playing the role of consumer guide because 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.920 the vast majority of streaming services operate under the same 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:58.320 Proorada model that is really, I think an unfair model, 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.240 you know. I'm I think that a better way of 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.560 doing streaming economics to be something called user centric, which 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.360 is basically like I pay ten dollars to a streaming service, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.720 they take their thirty percent cut, the remaining money goes 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.119 to the artists I stream. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.720 And finally, is what would you say to people who 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:20.000 are stocking the convenience of using Spotify or rather streaming services? 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.280 How did I break free? 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.400 Well, if as a music fan, you are concerned with 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.839 making sure that the money that you spend on music 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.640 doesn't accidentally end up in the military industrial complex, doesn't 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.760 accidentally end up going to a generative AI band. Your 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.640 best bet would be buying music directly from from the artists, 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.800 whether it's through band camp or through their website, or 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:45.600 through their record label, or through supporting an independent record store. Yeah, Like, 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.520 the combination of buying music directly plus listening to independent 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:55.040 community radio, for me, is kind of like a winning combination. Like, 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.320 I understand that music is vast. People listen to music 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.960 for different reasons, and people engage with music for different reasons. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.360 So I don't expect every single person who really cares 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.800 about music to start building an MP three library again 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.040 and to buy an FM radio, even though those are 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:13.280 the things that I would. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:14.720 Totally suggest me too. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:17.680 I do think though, that like that's kind of like 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:24.080 our best bet in this moment, remembering that it's never 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.400 been super convenient to be a fan of independent music, 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:33.439 and that you know, being our participant in independent music 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.600 culture like does require a little bit of friction in 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:38.080 many ways. 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.440 It's the inconvenience that Mike's are cool. Lise thanks so 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:42.480 much for speaking with this. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:44.520 Thank you so much for having me. 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.200 Liz Pally's book is called Mood Machine, The Rise of 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.480 Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. She'll be 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.480 speaking in Melbourne at the Wheelers Cinda on Thursday, twenty 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:05.720 ninth of August. Also in the news, anti Semitism in 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.840 Australia has reached deeply traveling levels, according to Anthony Albanesi. 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.360 The Prime Minister yesterday launched a report by Australia's Special 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:18.040 Envoid to combat anti Semitism, Gillian Siegel, which recommended sweeping 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:23.720 changes across universities, the media, policing and migration. Miss Siagal's 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.280 report recommends the government withhold funding from universities who failed 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.160 to stamp out anti Semitism, along with encouraging public broadcasters 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:36.000 to accurately and positively represent Jewish history and culture. It 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.800 also calls on the government to screen visa applicants for antisemitism. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.800 The recommendations will now be considered by government and the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.079 United Nations. Special raponteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories has 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:52.400 been sanctioned by the Trump administration. Francesca Albanesi is a 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.720 human rights lawyer and independent expert appointed to report to 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.200 the UN on human rights issues. She has been outspoken 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.199 on allegations of war crimes in Gaza. When announcing the sanctions, 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.080 US Secretary of State Marco Rubio accused Miss Alberanezi of 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.160 unabashed anti Semitism and said she has expressed support for 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:15.360 terrorism and open contempt of the United States, Israel, and 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:20.040 the West. Seven Am was a daily show for Solstice Media. 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.280 It's made by Adigus Bastow, Shane Anderson, Chris Danegate, Ruby Jones, 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:30.840 Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans, Zoltenfet Joe and Me, Daniel James. 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.880 Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.760 of Envelope Boudier. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.