Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: This is part two of my chat with convicted murderer
Speaker 1: Anthony Jones. I ask him the questions Eden Brown's family
Speaker 1: wanted to know about his murder, and we also discussed
Speaker 1: his future plans. This is a heavy episode, one I
Speaker 1: think is worthwhile listening to Anthony Jones. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: part two of I Catch Killers. You say that, look,
Speaker 1: it's a hard, hard conversation, but yeah, as we're discussed
Speaker 1: on and off Mike. I think it's important that people
Speaker 1: find out exactly what your story is, where you've come from,
Speaker 1: and what's happened. And if we go to soft on it,
Speaker 1: will people think, well, why are we actually finding out here?
Speaker 1: What's this about? We spoke in part one, I should say,
Speaker 1: and how you pleaded guilty, and you explained why you
Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to murder, which is a fairly rare thing.
Speaker 1: I also talk about the fact that Jessica Brown's sister,
Speaker 1: when I spoke to her, she was happy for me
Speaker 1: to sit down and have you on the podcast, but
Speaker 1: she said there's a couple of things that the family
Speaker 1: would like. She clarified that, yeah, her parents, who are
Speaker 1: elderly now, are still living with the pain of losing
Speaker 1: their son, and I think you could under understanderstand that
Speaker 1: that there's a ripple effect when someone's killed and her
Speaker 1: life's been taken. There was also headlines that I read
Speaker 1: like looking at when the matter has been reported on
Speaker 1: that I think it was attributed to Jessica, where she said, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a terrible situation. Two lives have been lost now,
Speaker 1: that to me comes across as someone very generous in
Speaker 1: saying that. I could I've seen a lot of people
Speaker 1: that have lost loved ones in murders and there's no
Speaker 1: thought or consideration given to the person that's involved in
Speaker 1: the murder. How do you feel about that? Just what
Speaker 1: I've said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually I found out a few years later after
Speaker 2: a sentence that she said, you know, two families have
Speaker 2: lost their sons. The only difference is one gets it
Speaker 2: back one And I read I got told that maybe
Speaker 2: ten years later, and that impacted me enormously. I could
Speaker 2: see that she had some sort of empathy towards me,
Speaker 2: I suppose, and by that time I was a very
Speaker 2: different man when I found out that what she said,
Speaker 2: and you know that deeply, I don't deserve that, you know,
Speaker 2: and that kindness kind of grace we call that grace
Speaker 2: in Christianity, undeserved favor. And those words that she said, actually,
Speaker 2: you know, have helped change me dramatically and propel me
Speaker 2: to do what I do.
Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to say those type of words, isn't it,
Speaker 1: going through the pain that her and the family would
Speaker 1: have would have gone through. And in fact, when I
Speaker 1: spoke to her, and I made a note of it
Speaker 1: when I called her after my discussion with you. She
Speaker 1: did point out that we're thrilled he's now making something
Speaker 1: of his life. Like again, that shows a generosity. But
Speaker 1: a little bit about Jessica just to give a sense
Speaker 1: of how this person could find their way to make
Speaker 1: the comments that she has. For the past twenty years,
Speaker 1: Jessica Brown has changed the courses of hundreds of young
Speaker 1: women's lives for the better. The charities she founded, Sister
Speaker 1: the Sister Warrior Woman Foundation support young women at risk
Speaker 1: through pairing with older, successful women role models. Twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: Jessica gained a position on the Serious Offenders Review Board,
Speaker 1: an independent body who makes recommendations to New South Wales
Speaker 1: Commissioner of Corrective Services on the progression of the state's
Speaker 1: most serious offenders. We're getting sidelined here. But she's a
Speaker 1: pretty impressive, impressive person just by that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, even at my prolaring they said anything's done
Speaker 2: enough time. Like what do you say?
Speaker 1: It's hard? She asked me. She there's things that the
Speaker 1: family want to know. They want to know that, are
Speaker 1: you taking responsibility for Eden's death? What would you say
Speaker 1: to her in that irresponsible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I will say there was never premeditation
Speaker 2: there was never I never had a thought about in
Speaker 2: that night or ever to to kill him, to harm him.
Speaker 1: Just that night.
Speaker 2: It just unfolded that way. I take responsibility for it.
Speaker 1: What about a couple of other things that she wanted
Speaker 1: accountability acknowledgment of what I did?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that it all started with the
Speaker 2: plead guilty.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's where it began to talk us through that
Speaker 1: in regards to accountability.
Speaker 2: I wanted to plead duty from the beginning, but obviously
Speaker 2: my family begged me to to fight and try to
Speaker 2: come home the whole time. I wanted to plead duty.
Speaker 2: Like so the second trol came to where it did,
Speaker 2: and I gave me the opportunity to plead guilty. So
Speaker 2: then what I did, plead guilty. I still had a
Speaker 2: long time to go, and I thought, well, plead and
Speaker 2: guilty is one thing. If I don't leave this place
Speaker 2: a better man or changed, that's pointless. So after the
Speaker 2: plea of guilty too, pretty much instantly after that, when
Speaker 2: I got to this game, I just went to work
Speaker 2: on myself right, and I'm not leaving this place until
Speaker 2: I change. And I made a vow to God because
Speaker 2: I'm a faithful man. I made that to God and
Speaker 2: that I would never be charged and to Eden that
Speaker 2: I'd never be charged for a violent crime again, that
Speaker 2: this violence would leave me and I'll do whatever it
Speaker 2: takes to do that. And I made that vow in
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and every day since then I've done. Every
Speaker 2: single day, I've worked than myself to change and I've
Speaker 2: never blamed anybody else. I've never said anybody thing about
Speaker 2: anybody else. It was on me. It's my fault. My
Speaker 2: hands have the blood on them. I play guilty to it.
Speaker 2: And what I've done after the plea of guilty proves
Speaker 2: to people. It shows people, but mostly to myself. I
Speaker 2: had to prove to myself that there's something good in me,
Speaker 2: and that's where God came in and showed me that
Speaker 2: there is something good in me. And everything I do
Speaker 2: now is to show people that I took responsibility for
Speaker 2: what I've done, and everything I do now is to
Speaker 2: change my life so I don't ever do anything like
Speaker 2: that again to anybody else, And now help others to
Speaker 2: figure out why they're so angry.
Speaker 1: Well, sitting here opposite you, and I think I can
Speaker 1: judge where you're coming from. In that I've said the
Speaker 1: opposite a lot of people that have committed serious crimes.
Speaker 1: And there's certainly I'm seeing the accountability and the acknowledgment.
Speaker 1: What about the empathy for what Eden's gone through, Like
Speaker 1: he lost his life, he had his life ahead of
Speaker 1: him and the impact of the family. Talk to me
Speaker 1: through that on your thoughts on that. Well, when I
Speaker 1: say your thoughts on how you feel about that, Oh, look.
Speaker 2: I'll carry the pain of that forever in my life
Speaker 2: and I have to. You know, it's my hands that
Speaker 2: they lost his son. I can't imagine what they feel
Speaker 2: because I didn't lose your son. You know, I sat
Speaker 2: in jail for many years and had a recurring dream
Speaker 2: thinking what would I do if I was Eden's father
Speaker 2: to me? And I always had this recurring dream that
Speaker 2: one day I'd walk out of the gate and someone
Speaker 2: his father would just shoot me. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 2: Eden's father is not that type of man. But when
Speaker 2: someone like this happens, anyone's capable of anything. And I
Speaker 2: was actually hoping you do that. That's what I used
Speaker 2: to always dream about. I can't imagine what they're going through.
Speaker 2: The hole in their heart will never be healed. It
Speaker 2: will never be filled. All I can do is represent
Speaker 2: myself out here. I've been given a second chance, and
Speaker 2: I'm worthy of that second chance.
Speaker 1: I know that.
Speaker 2: I know that, and that's why I'm coming on here
Speaker 2: to show, hopefully show them that I am a change man,
Speaker 2: so they can actually say, well, we'll help them, hopefully
Speaker 2: bring closure that. I don't know how. You can't feel.
Speaker 2: I can't take anything back. But if I came out
Speaker 2: here and I was still a scumbag, still being a
Speaker 2: putrid person like that would impact them even more negatively.
Speaker 2: And I made sure that that was not going to happen.
Speaker 2: If they saw me, they're going to see a man
Speaker 2: that's trying to change his life and trying to do better.
Speaker 1: Now, that's all I can do.
Speaker 2: My heart aches for them, will always ache for them.
Speaker 2: I can te need to pray for them, and I'll
Speaker 2: pray for them today i leave this earth.
Speaker 1: But that's all I can do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because eventually I gotta I gotta, I gotta do this.
Speaker 1: It's carrying a weight, isn't it.
Speaker 2: I've got to carry the well, I'm never not going
Speaker 2: to have the weight, man. Yeah, And I have to
Speaker 2: carry that weight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, full credit to you coming up or
Speaker 1: fronting up and coming on this podcast. It's not the
Speaker 1: type of podcast you want to come on in your
Speaker 1: circumstances because the hard questions are going to be asked,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to look you in the eye and
Speaker 1: if you're bullshitting, I would try to call you on it.
Speaker 1: That was that's just the nature of this world, because
Speaker 1: I see the impact that homicides have on the families,
Speaker 1: and it's devastating. It carries on for generations. But what
Speaker 1: I'm what I'm hearing is you understand that. And going
Speaker 1: back to the trial, and I heard or read a
Speaker 1: report that when you you pleaded guilty to it that yeah,
Speaker 1: when and we talked about the accountability and you wanted
Speaker 1: to be the first one in the family to stand
Speaker 1: up and except yeah, this is this is what I've done,
Speaker 1: the responsibility that it might have been something that you said.
Speaker 1: Did your mum actually call out and say that you're
Speaker 1: a disgrace to the family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she stood up when I was I had to
Speaker 2: stand up obviously didn't get it rained again, put my
Speaker 2: plea of guilty, and as I stood she stood up
Speaker 2: and said, you're not my son. You disgrace to the family,
Speaker 2: and yeah, my brother removed it from the from the courtroom.
Speaker 1: Is that because you break the criminal code of Yeah,
Speaker 1: not nothing for a crime when you got the chance
Speaker 1: of beating it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and somehow I'm letting them down by doing the
Speaker 2: right thing.
Speaker 1: Right, So you were a disgrace for the crime that
Speaker 1: you committed. You're a disgrace for doing the right thing,
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. How did that make you feel.
Speaker 2: When I went back downstairs, I it just validated what
Speaker 2: I was doing. Yeah, like pleading guilty and it shaved
Speaker 2: my lawyer.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is why. Yeah, this is why.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's probably one of the most impactful things
Speaker 2: negatively that she's ever done to me. You know, but
Speaker 2: that's what as what drives me to break this cycle.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're twenty four. Yea, you've gone through what
Speaker 1: you've just described to us. I believe you when you
Speaker 1: say you're carrying the guilt of the crime and the
Speaker 1: responsibility of taking a friend's friend's life. You've got your
Speaker 1: family that's turned against you because, in their words, you're
Speaker 1: basically a dog. Because you've told to myself, yeah, you
Speaker 1: gave the prison your sentenced to what was the sentence?
Speaker 2: Eighteen years, eight months.
Speaker 1: Okay, and you're twenty four, twenty five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got sentence. I was twenty six, maybe seven,
Speaker 2: twenty six.
Speaker 1: Okay, first night in the cells. After all that, you've
Speaker 1: caught up in the emotion of deciding to plead guilty,
Speaker 1: deciding taking accountability, owning what you've done. Then you've been sentenced,
Speaker 1: how your family sturned against you, or your moment least,
Speaker 1: how did you feel when you went in the in
Speaker 1: the cells.
Speaker 2: I felt relief that it was over and I had
Speaker 2: a date, which I was grateful for a date, a goal,
Speaker 2: but I was kind of numb man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just numb.
Speaker 2: Just I thought I've done all I can to that
Speaker 2: for that point, but it was just numb. Just got
Speaker 2: to get on with it now.
Speaker 1: Survive and survive is probably a good word because there's
Speaker 1: a lot of pitfalls in prison for that period of
Speaker 1: time that that's your environment. You've got to survive. And yeah,
Speaker 1: there's different ways, but you can. You get caught up
Speaker 1: in stuff inside in prison. You talked about getting access
Speaker 1: to a Bible and the lead up to pleading guilty,
Speaker 1: and that was sort of change changing your thinking. I'm
Speaker 1: not I said to you before we started the podcast,
Speaker 1: some other religious man. But anything that helps people live
Speaker 1: a good life, I'm all for if that's and that's
Speaker 1: the impact that it's had on you. When you went
Speaker 1: to start your long your long sentence, were you looking
Speaker 1: towards religion at that stage or you're still finding your
Speaker 1: finding your way? What? What was How did you survive
Speaker 1: jail that, let's say the first twelve months two years?
Speaker 1: How did your process and survive in prison.
Speaker 2: The first eighteen months all the way to the first
Speaker 2: trial was just there was no talk of faith at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I never came across faith at all. I just surviving it,
Speaker 2: you know, every day, just trying to build my case,
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to present this. You're on
Speaker 2: romand so you're just getting ship from jar to jail. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, you just you're just doing your best in
Speaker 2: there and trying to prepare for trial. And then in
Speaker 2: the first trial I started to pray, which I never
Speaker 2: prayed four but I started praying at the end of
Speaker 2: the troll, and then that led me to the Bible
Speaker 2: for the second troll, and then that led me to
Speaker 2: the plead guilty, that conviction from reading those words the
Speaker 2: truth will see you free. And then for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: I just kept I just started going to Chapel every Sunday.
Speaker 1: When I got to this game, that's where you're doing
Speaker 1: the bulk of your time at lift G. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: did six years there and that's a pretty heavy joy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's no nonsense there. Yeah, you know I was. I
Speaker 1: wasn't you know?
Speaker 2: I was angry, I was volatile, I was forever reason
Speaker 2: I go to Chapel every Sunday just because I knew
Speaker 2: I had an encounter with God and somehow, some way,
Speaker 2: and this conviction on my heart was the answers in
Speaker 2: that book for me to change.
Speaker 1: So explain Chapel in prison because people don't get a
Speaker 1: sense of it. So you've got other prisoners of the.
Speaker 2: Sunday calls Sunday ten am. Roughly, you've got the pastor
Speaker 2: or the chaplain and there's a call for ten am
Speaker 2: service and whoever wants to go the gates open, you
Speaker 2: go down and it could be five, ten twenty.
Speaker 1: Does it put a target on you? In prison? You
Speaker 1: can't show weakness, and if you show kindness that can
Speaker 1: be perceived as weakness, Like if if you've found God,
Speaker 1: you there right for the picking for other prisoners to look.
Speaker 2: Everyone's going to judge you. But religion is a big
Speaker 2: thing in jail. You know, it's of Islam or yeah,
Speaker 2: or Jesus or brought up you know, the Asian Boys
Speaker 2: or anyone really, but you know, everyone's holding on to something.
Speaker 1: But mine was far.
Speaker 2: Beyond the crutch. I knew that this has compelled me,
Speaker 2: this is going to change my life. So as the
Speaker 2: years went on, I just got deeper and deeper in it.
Speaker 2: I could read it for longer than five minutes because
Speaker 2: my attention span. I had to teach myself how to
Speaker 2: read properly, how to teach myself how to be disciplined,
Speaker 2: and read it for longer than ten minutes. And as
Speaker 2: I did, it just captivated me. And I just went
Speaker 2: to work on myself and that book guided me.
Speaker 1: Were there crossroads or situations you found yourself in because
Speaker 1: you would have had to stand up for yourself at times?
Speaker 1: And how did that work into your You found view
Speaker 1: on religion and the way they live your life.
Speaker 2: That was the hardest thing to do because everything it's
Speaker 2: telling me to do everything the opposite. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: to forgive, to love, to turn the other cheek.
Speaker 1: Well that's right. Yeah, well that's what I'm trying to
Speaker 1: break down.
Speaker 2: A half years the game, and I'm Jesus telling me
Speaker 2: to do these things, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it took a long time, man, but I never
Speaker 2: gave up in it. And there was altercations that I
Speaker 2: had in prison, of course, and there was one. There
Speaker 2: was one kind of defining one that it changed. It
Speaker 2: probably changed my life, It really changed. It was a
Speaker 2: crossroads moment and then it made me make a decision
Speaker 2: of do you want to die in jail or do
Speaker 2: you want to go home?
Speaker 1: Tell us about that. I think I know the one
Speaker 1: you're talking about, And yeah, it should almost be a
Speaker 1: content morning here, because it's pretty heavy. Tell me what
Speaker 1: happened there, tell us in detail what took place.
Speaker 2: There's a couple of other inmates that came to my
Speaker 2: wing where we live, and we didn't like each other obviously,
Speaker 2: and escalator one day between me and one bloke, but
Speaker 2: then he kind of cowered and didn't want to go
Speaker 2: on with it, and okay, I said, all right. So
Speaker 2: then we got locked in at three thirty into ourselves
Speaker 2: and I knew, okay, tomorrow something's gonna happen for sure.
Speaker 2: So we get locked in at three o'clock or three
Speaker 2: thirty to eight thirty the next day, and I surrendered
Speaker 2: my life to Jesus. You surrender your life, you say
Speaker 2: to come to my life. You live for me. Now
Speaker 2: you take control. And I've done that in January. This
Speaker 2: happened in April, and I'm like, how do I deal
Speaker 2: with this? Now? There?
Speaker 1: So that door locked.
Speaker 2: I just had these mental demons in my head to retaliate.
Speaker 2: How I would always retaliate because I know they're coming
Speaker 2: for me. But how do I do I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that. I want to take this seriously. I
Speaker 2: want to change my life. I don't want to be
Speaker 2: violent anymore. And I battled through that all night, and
Speaker 2: then the morning came and I read a powerful verse
Speaker 2: in the Bible which is called Ephesian, the Book of Ephesians,
Speaker 2: chapter six, and it's called the Armor of God. And
Speaker 2: he talks about putting a belt of truth on the
Speaker 2: breastplate of righteousness, a helmet of salvation, a shield of faith,
Speaker 2: and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word
Speaker 2: of God. And he says, put on this spiritual armor
Speaker 2: and God will protect you. So I prayed that over myself,
Speaker 2: and the doors opened at eight thirty, and I promised
Speaker 2: myself and God that I wouldn't attack. I just defend myself.
Speaker 2: I had no ideas what happened then, but the doors
Speaker 2: open and the screws are in the jail, opening all
Speaker 2: the doors, and he got like sixty to seventy men
Speaker 2: single file walk downstairs to go into the yard to.
Speaker 1: Go to work.
Speaker 2: But I was a sweeper in the pods. I cleaned
Speaker 2: the pod while the men go to work. So I
Speaker 2: met the rubbish spins and I saw I think three
Speaker 2: men creeping behind the corrective officers. One of a bucket
Speaker 2: and I didn't see what the other blake had a weapon,
Speaker 2: and another blake, And as I seen this guy come
Speaker 2: towards me, I just thought I just looked leaped at him,
Speaker 2: but he just threw a bucket hot liquid in my
Speaker 2: face and melted my face and.
Speaker 1: I went blind.
Speaker 2: And then obviously he's just going hectic, and I'm just fighting,
Speaker 2: pretty much blind, trying to defend myself. And then obviously
Speaker 2: the screws are there, so that's it's just got contained
Speaker 2: after a certain time, and I'm contained. I still couldn't
Speaker 2: see you. After minutes of this, and then one of
Speaker 2: the screws he knew me for a long time. I
Speaker 2: just said, please give me my hand so I can
Speaker 2: rub my eyes, you know, and he's please don't fight anymore,
Speaker 2: and I said, no, I won't, mate, I won't. Just
Speaker 2: let me rub my eyes. And so I got my
Speaker 2: hands and rubbed my eyes. And then as I'm rubbing
Speaker 2: my eyes, I could just start to get my vision
Speaker 2: back as my skin was melting, and I said, another
Speaker 2: bloke come up the stairs trying to get me again,
Speaker 2: and then he got tackled and then I could finally
Speaker 2: see again, and my face was just burning, and they
Speaker 2: put me in the shower and then I'm just under
Speaker 2: cold water. And then a lady officer came in and
Speaker 2: she started screaming, like frantically, saying he's been stabbed multiple
Speaker 2: times and you know that'd stab wounds and stuff. I
Speaker 2: had no idea and I went to hospital and you know,
Speaker 2: they copy to the bed. I'm still a maxim secuity,
Speaker 2: inn't I? And I was just laughing, you know, and
Speaker 2: the screws.
Speaker 1: Like, what are you laughing? I said, don't worry, man.
Speaker 2: That was a moment for me with God, you saved
Speaker 2: my life. And I was bandaged up and I got
Speaker 2: stabbed ten times, but only one wound actually penetrated, right,
Speaker 2: And I was like, and they said, you're going to
Speaker 2: be scarred. Your face is going to be mangled for you.
Speaker 1: You know that that hot liquid that threw over, that
Speaker 1: melded your face. That's a bit of a prison and
Speaker 1: it's almost like a Nate palm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just blinds you and melt your face. It's
Speaker 2: not just hot water, sugar, whatever they can get in there.
Speaker 1: So it sticks to your skin and burns. And I
Speaker 1: think the prison more than had your skin on these hands.
Speaker 2: To Yeah, the prison guard, I look down, he said
Speaker 2: what's this? He goes, this is your skin. And then
Speaker 2: so I went When I went back to the jails,
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, but I said, I'm going back to
Speaker 2: the main population, like you're not putting in any protective custody. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And he's like, yeah, you're going back. So I went
Speaker 2: back to the wing. And then a good made of
Speaker 2: mine is like a mentor, you know.
Speaker 1: The older guy.
Speaker 2: He come and saw me and he said, mate, like
Speaker 2: the way you're going, you're going to die. You are
Speaker 2: so violent. You disrespect, like people want to kill you.
Speaker 2: They look how many people tried to come today to
Speaker 2: kill you. They're over going to get locked in, segre
Speaker 2: They're going to send data and you're going become like
Speaker 2: a zombie.
Speaker 1: Are you going to die?
Speaker 2: He goes, I could have punched my way through this sentence,
Speaker 2: but I didn't. He's been in for nineteen years at
Speaker 2: that time, So you've got to survive this a j
Speaker 2: because I'm only telling you because I love you, mate,
Speaker 2: And I just sat there and that night I got
Speaker 2: locked in and I said, Okay, I don't make changes.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: If I'm going to be a Christian, I'm going to
Speaker 2: follow this way and I'm going to get out of
Speaker 2: jar on one piece.
Speaker 1: Because when you came back and you weren't going in protection,
Speaker 1: were you and I take on board that you were
Speaker 1: put in your faith in Yeah? Were you thinking, well,
Speaker 1: does God say anywhere revenge? Or you went from scriptures? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Where can I get these?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well that's where I'm thinking. Which way are you going
Speaker 1: to go with it? What's your interpretation?
Speaker 2: I went there and and you know it didn't end
Speaker 2: for me. I navigate dramas for the next couple of
Speaker 2: years about this.
Speaker 1: Well, an incident like that, people are going to look
Speaker 1: at you and think you're a weak prick if you don't.
Speaker 2: How so, you're watched by the jarl, the inmates, the screws.
Speaker 2: People's want blood in that place.
Speaker 1: You know they're bored.
Speaker 2: But that was a true line in the end for
Speaker 2: me because it showed me in that moment that I'm
Speaker 2: not I could actually change, I could actually control my violence.
Speaker 2: If I could. I didn't do what I would usually do.
Speaker 1: Okay, So just so I can break that down, understand
Speaker 1: you're thinking here, So usually there would be retribution for
Speaker 1: an attack like that, for sure, and you made a
Speaker 1: conscious decision, in keeping with your faith not to that
Speaker 1: you weren't going to. And that's the path that you
Speaker 1: went on as.
Speaker 2: The path I went on, and you know, God protected me.
Speaker 2: I had a lot of navi. I had to navigate
Speaker 2: for a couple of years.
Speaker 1: Tell us what you mean by you, like other.
Speaker 2: Dudes coming from other jails to try to kill me
Speaker 2: again and all things like that, and I just had
Speaker 2: to deal with it straight away. And end of the day,
Speaker 2: I still had to defend myself, like I can't I'm
Speaker 2: in jail, So I just make sure I confront of
Speaker 2: them first, you know how I am? Yeah, are you
Speaker 2: here to get me? And then nearly all of them
Speaker 2: back off. There's a couple that came close.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I got through that, and I was got through it,
Speaker 2: and I honored my faith and in the end I
Speaker 2: was able to forgive these guys. And it was a
Speaker 2: turning point in my life.
Speaker 1: Is there a turning point to where inmates? So I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get the sense of it and the path
Speaker 1: that you've taken where you start to get some respect
Speaker 1: back for actually changing your life. Like, I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people in there want to drag you down,
Speaker 1: and no, you're one of us. You're going to be
Speaker 1: coming back. But I would imagine the ones that stand
Speaker 1: up and separate themselves from the pack eventually or maybe
Speaker 1: they get some respect.
Speaker 2: Definitely when you're one of the guys that used to
Speaker 2: be a certain.
Speaker 1: Way, Okay, that was credibility that you haven't come in soft. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wasn't not a junkie. I wasn't you know. I
Speaker 2: held myself there. Yeah, I still had morals. Yeah, I've
Speaker 2: done some horrible things. But when I started to change,
Speaker 2: was that dramatic it's all the water. I went from
Speaker 2: hating guys to loving them over time, and my closest
Speaker 2: mates and even guys that hated me in the end
Speaker 2: started to say, man, well done, bro, Yeah, like you've changed,
Speaker 2: and they were actually proud of me, and and they
Speaker 2: let me go. The system knew that I've changed, and
Speaker 2: I'm moving on with my life. I've been given this
Speaker 2: second chance, I'm taking it. And if someone is genuine
Speaker 2: in there, because I'll call bullshit straight away. You just
Speaker 2: watch each other every single day. And I was in
Speaker 2: there for a decade and a half, so they watch
Speaker 2: every move of me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of the bullshit, then you can't fake it. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's someone that comes up for the pro board. No,
Speaker 1: I found God now and I.
Speaker 2: Had approved that to people. He just found God. It's
Speaker 2: a crutch, even to my own fam.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty easy easy cop out of this course.
Speaker 2: And everybody is saying that you leave God at the gate. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I made sure that I didn't leave got at
Speaker 2: the game.
Speaker 1: Okay, study, like you start reading the Bible, but did
Speaker 1: you get to do any study when you're insight? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So when I started really delving into this thing, I
Speaker 2: thought because I knew it can change people. It's changing me,
Speaker 2: you can change others. So how do I teach people this?
Speaker 2: And I thought I got Someone told me, you got
Speaker 2: to go to Bible college if you want to become
Speaker 2: a preacher or a pastor. I said, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I want to do that. But eventually when I got
Speaker 2: to Minim Security, I tried for many years to get
Speaker 2: into a Bible college through correspondence and then eventually I
Speaker 2: met an awesome chaplain when I got to Minim Security,
Speaker 2: and he's you know, he kind of evaluated me. He
Speaker 2: used to sit just like you are, look for holes
Speaker 2: in me, in my story and what I'm saying, and
Speaker 2: eventually have about six weeks he said, man, okay, you're
Speaker 2: the real deal. I wanted what do you want to do?
Speaker 2: And I said, I want to get a Bible college. Man,
Speaker 2: I want to get my degree and become a pastor.
Speaker 2: And he said, let's try and make this happen. And
Speaker 2: now I've got a Bachelor of Ministry, I'm a qualified
Speaker 2: pastor and started my masters. I never went to school,
Speaker 2: but I was determined to get my education. Wasn't about
Speaker 2: a degree, he was about getting my education. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I was able to get that now. And I started
Speaker 2: that in twenty twenty when I was in jail and
Speaker 2: completed it three months after I got out.
Speaker 1: How did that help you? Like studying the course that
Speaker 1: you were studying, but any any study? Do you think
Speaker 1: that was said? Because purpose O purpose? And it proved
Speaker 1: to me that I'm not stupid? Yeah, yeah, well you're
Speaker 1: still that from your childhood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I was called maggot by my father.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: All my life sticks with you and myself worth, you know. So,
Speaker 2: and I was afraid of education. I thought they've scared me.
Speaker 2: So to prove that I could do this, that's what
Speaker 2: it meant to me. And education is a way of
Speaker 2: setting you free as well. You know. Now I can
Speaker 2: get a job, I can be like I lost so
Speaker 2: many portunities because I didn't believe in myself and had
Speaker 2: no education.
Speaker 1: There's power to knowledge is power, Knowledge is bound And yeah,
Speaker 1: you can keep yourself physically fit, and that's that. There's
Speaker 1: a power power in that. The knowledge adds another another layer.
Speaker 2: And both together. You can't just be a machine with
Speaker 2: no knowledge and no education. I was that I was
Speaker 2: turning myself into this machine. But internally I was still dead.
Speaker 1: So you're doing the full on gym.
Speaker 2: Trained constantly, but I'm becoming angry and more volatile and stronger.
Speaker 2: But then when I blended the faith and then my
Speaker 2: education together, it gave me balance and the holistic balance
Speaker 2: that you know, my physical, my mental, my faith, it's
Speaker 2: all in sync now everything was missing before it was
Speaker 2: one without the others.
Speaker 1: It makes sense you need that balance to have.
Speaker 2: That balance, and for me, I figured out how I function,
Speaker 2: that I need routine, that I need to be disciplined,
Speaker 2: and that's how I've been able to achieve this in
Speaker 2: the road to transformation.
Speaker 1: In the In the prison system, you've said you had
Speaker 1: difficulties starting, but once you're in there was that something
Speaker 1: that you think there could be more of in the
Speaker 1: prison system giving people access to education.
Speaker 2: There's limited education, yeah, and there's things you can do,
Speaker 2: but it's very limited. So they need to offer obviously,
Speaker 2: trades or things that some that a man has actually
Speaker 2: got hunger for. There's no point doing something if he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do it. But if they give these
Speaker 2: opportunities to go to education or university and not just
Speaker 2: cert twos and cert threes, it gives you no qualification.
Speaker 2: They only give you half a qualification in there. They
Speaker 2: need to give full qualifications. I could have done four
Speaker 2: trades in my time. So the opportunity is there. Not
Speaker 2: everyone's going to take it.
Speaker 1: Though, more fuel them if they don't take the opportunity
Speaker 1: and if you're in there. But I think there's a
Speaker 1: benefit to having some purpose and direction when you walk
Speaker 1: out of a walk out of a prison.
Speaker 2: Or if you don't, you're coming back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, playing and symbol You think it's that simple.
Speaker 2: It is a simple. Yeah, you don't have a plan
Speaker 2: or purpose. You were coming back because it's too overwhelming,
Speaker 2: especially after a big sentence.
Speaker 1: So how long did you end up serving?
Speaker 2: I did four Dane straight.
Speaker 1: How would you describe yourself from the time you went
Speaker 1: in to the time you walked out?
Speaker 2: Give us a version of unrecognizable broken. I was a man,
Speaker 2: but a broken boy inside but in a man's body,
Speaker 2: just no hope, just angry, judgmental, negative and just totally broken.
Speaker 2: Now a man that's redeemed and has hope, and not
Speaker 2: just to hope for myself. I see hope in others.
Speaker 2: I lost hope in people and I have that back now.
Speaker 2: And when you've been given a second chance when you
Speaker 2: don't deserve one. From what I've done, life is you
Speaker 2: look at life a lot differently, you know, And I
Speaker 2: just want to instead of taking everything I've taken, I
Speaker 2: just want to give back. My life's about giving now
Speaker 2: and just helping as many people as I can to
Speaker 2: not go down the road of incarceration, because when you're
Speaker 2: in that cycle, it's almost impossible to break.
Speaker 1: How with your qualifications and the study, what are you
Speaker 1: doing your master's in the ministry as well? Okay, and
Speaker 1: where do you hope to steer your career in your life?
Speaker 2: Well, I thought pastoral ministry was going to be the key.
Speaker 2: But I can't get a working in a children' chip
Speaker 2: because of the charge of murder, and I understand, so
Speaker 2: I can never get that. I can never be a
Speaker 2: paid pastor in a church and have that as my profession.
Speaker 2: So I've had to move the goalposts. But I think
Speaker 2: it's been the right move and I'm going to I'm
Speaker 2: starting a charity which is going to launch in a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks, non for profit charity, which is called
Speaker 2: No Chance Movement or No Chance Ministry. And I was
Speaker 2: classed no Chance from very early on and no chance
Speaker 2: of rehabilitation. And Jesus turned my chance into a second chance.
Speaker 2: And when you meet these guys and these women in
Speaker 2: prisons and in these life that's the language no chance.
Speaker 2: And I'm walking toward an example. If you take the opportunity,
Speaker 2: you can change your life. So now I've been able
Speaker 2: to go into the juvenile facilities and tell my story
Speaker 2: of who I was and where I am and what
Speaker 2: I've been able to get to to give these guys
Speaker 2: hope hopefully to change your life.
Speaker 1: You'd have their attention when you walk into a juvenile.
Speaker 2: Definitely, as soon as they those stories knew that some
Speaker 2: of the things I've said, and then obviously telling them
Speaker 2: I was there twenty three years ago, just exactly where
Speaker 2: you were.
Speaker 1: You know, they listen and can you do that? And
Speaker 1: I'm asking this respectfully that if you come there and
Speaker 1: if you're preaching religion, do they switch off or do
Speaker 1: It's not so much preaching religion, that's showing the way
Speaker 1: to live their life for a purpose their life.
Speaker 2: For me, I changed my life only because of Jesus.
Speaker 1: All that's for you, that's for me.
Speaker 2: I'm always going to tell you to go to Jesus first, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you just do whatever you need to do to
Speaker 2: change your life. I'm just there to show you that
Speaker 2: if you want this more than anything in your life,
Speaker 2: which I do. I still do now, and it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter what circumstance you're in. And if you change your
Speaker 2: victim mentality to victory so you're not a victim, you're
Speaker 2: a victor, you can change anything.
Speaker 1: Break that down for us.
Speaker 2: So in prison, everyone majority of the mentality is victor mentality.
Speaker 2: We do what we do because of what we come from.
Speaker 2: I could easily sit here and go I did all
Speaker 2: these things because of my childhood, but that's that's bullshit.
Speaker 2: I still knew what right and wrong was. I didn't
Speaker 2: have the tools, the right tools to actually be a
Speaker 2: functioning I think citizen of in society. I had to
Speaker 2: learn that. But there's no way I could have got
Speaker 2: to where I am now if I've said I'm a victim.
Speaker 2: I'm not a victim. You know, And that mentality keeps
Speaker 2: you in the cycle, that keeps you in prison, that
Speaker 2: keeps you doing the wrong, being hurting people rather than
Speaker 2: people and justifying your actions. And as soon as I
Speaker 2: flip that and accept the responsibility and I'm not a victim.
Speaker 2: It changed everything for me, and that's for me. That's
Speaker 2: the key.
Speaker 1: It's a mindset, isn't it. But it's an important mindset
Speaker 1: because we can all we can all look at our
Speaker 1: lives and go, oh, this happened to me. Therefore, this
Speaker 1: is why I'm doing this. I'd like that, and I
Speaker 1: think in today's society we probably need it more than
Speaker 1: ever because people are I haven't got that resilience and
Speaker 1: I'm talking to younger, younger people and saying, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this happened, therefore I'm doing this.
Speaker 2: But and that's what I've seen, what I've since been
Speaker 2: out of custody, that mindset. There's no grit, there's no resilience,
Speaker 2: and I don't know how you teach that, but you've
Speaker 2: got to. You've got to. You've got to want that.
Speaker 2: You've got to endure. And I wish people don't have
Speaker 2: to go through what I've gone through and the tragic events,
Speaker 2: you know, even losing his life. But and I can
Speaker 2: never make up for it. But me changing my life,
Speaker 2: maybe I can stop someone else doing this, you know,
Speaker 2: And it's not about me, it's about other people.
Speaker 1: If you could make Anthony, if you can just change
Speaker 1: one person's life. You're contributing to society. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: one person. If you go in there as a group
Speaker 1: of twenty young fellas or young fellas and girls in detention,
Speaker 1: then you can turn one life that's making a difference.
Speaker 1: That's a ripple effect. We talk about the ripple effect
Speaker 1: from a homicide, how many people will affect. But if
Speaker 1: you get one person turning around. So what's the message.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here as a smart as sixteen seventeen year old,
Speaker 1: go and what the fuck are you going to teach me?
Speaker 1: And you just give it to them, Raw, this is
Speaker 1: what I've been through and this is what can be done.
Speaker 2: I tell them what I've been through. I tell them
Speaker 2: what I've done. Yeah, but I also tell them that
Speaker 2: you're not going to listen to me today. Listen to
Speaker 2: me probably when you're thirty thirty five, in that spot
Speaker 2: where you mature into a man and then you're going
Speaker 2: to remember some dude came in and told me, and
Speaker 2: you're going to remember and you're ever going to act
Speaker 2: on that or you're going to remain for the rest
Speaker 2: of your life in the cycle. I said, because that's
Speaker 2: what happened to me. I had men talk to me
Speaker 2: and give me good advice, but I didn't kick It
Speaker 2: didn't kick in till like thirty Yeah, and then I
Speaker 2: was like, should have listened. I said, you're all going
Speaker 2: to jail. I told him when I went to the facility,
Speaker 2: I said, put your hand up if you think you're
Speaker 2: going to jail. And they were a bit shy. I said,
Speaker 2: pretty much, satistically, ninety odd percent a going to jail,
Speaker 2: and they all gave me the nod. And I said,
Speaker 2: so when this kicks in, you're going to remember some
Speaker 2: of the things I've said. I hope one of his
Speaker 2: takes it on board now, but I don't think you will,
Speaker 2: because I never did. I said, but you've got a chance.
Speaker 2: Don't believe the lie of no chance. And that's kind
Speaker 2: of I just say it to And they were kind
Speaker 2: of shocked because they're thinking, I'm just going to tell
Speaker 2: them change your life now.
Speaker 1: But it's not going to happen. Some will.
Speaker 2: It's going to happen a lot longer down the road.
Speaker 1: Have you had any that have surprised you when you've
Speaker 1: spoken to them, And yeah, a response that sort of oh,
Speaker 1: I might have got through to that person.
Speaker 2: Oh, some of the sponsors have been really good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I think, well, it may be, but what tools
Speaker 2: does he have to do it? That's the thing.
Speaker 1: Explain that because I think it's an important point.
Speaker 2: I wanted to change when I was seventeen, like I
Speaker 2: wanted out, but I was like, I don't even know
Speaker 2: how to read and write properly.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to speak properly. I don't have.
Speaker 2: The tools or the vocabulary to even articulate what's going
Speaker 2: inside of me and to ask what I need or
Speaker 2: to tell someone what I need. I couldn't even tell
Speaker 2: you that I wanted to change. So how are they
Speaker 2: going to change if they don't have the tools or
Speaker 2: the support to change they want to change, And that's
Speaker 2: where the missing pieces. I don't know how we do
Speaker 2: that yet. There's a kid I went in there. He
Speaker 2: said at seventeen, only recently that he's no chance of rehabilitation.
Speaker 2: And that's his viewpointless at seventeen, right, and the guard
Speaker 2: that works theres are made of mine. And when I
Speaker 2: went in there because I want you to speak to him,
Speaker 2: AJ because he sounds like you and all the things
Speaker 2: you've told me and I've got to meet this kid
Speaker 2: and tell him some of the things I've told you've
Speaker 2: got today. And he was crying and I said, you'll, you'll,
Speaker 2: You've got a second chance, mate, if you believe it,
Speaker 2: and he could see in his heart and his eyes
Speaker 2: that he's like, wow, I do. But does he have
Speaker 2: the tools? Does he have the support? And if he doesn't,
Speaker 2: how can we give it to him? And I think
Speaker 2: that's what we've got to We've got to get around
Speaker 2: people and do that.
Speaker 1: Okay, how then how can we do that?
Speaker 2: First step I think is that the facilities that these
Speaker 2: kids are in, they've only got guards and your mentors
Speaker 2: that you know, are their authority. They're police to them,
Speaker 2: so they don't care what they say. They need to
Speaker 2: get guys in who've lived the experience. And there's not
Speaker 2: many men that have changed, and if there are not,
Speaker 2: many want to go back. But you need to bring
Speaker 2: these guys in to show them there's not make sure
Speaker 2: they're the real deal, but bring these guys into the facilities,
Speaker 2: let them see themselves that I was you, but you
Speaker 2: can be me now. And I think that's where we've
Speaker 2: got to start. And that's what Joe's doing but there's
Speaker 2: only a few guys that been allowed in these facilities
Speaker 2: that are doing it.
Speaker 1: We've got to change. We've seriously got to give access
Speaker 1: to these people. I understand the risks and people going, well,
Speaker 1: why are you going to put someone that's done all
Speaker 1: these things into the environment talking to young kids. I've
Speaker 1: got to mate Nada Hampden. I'm not sure if you've
Speaker 1: heard of it. A boxer, the professional boxer, the top
Speaker 1: top Blap. He did three years in juvenile center and
Speaker 1: man on the back of reading Jeff Fannick's book, decided, no,
Speaker 1: this is not for me. That was that was, that
Speaker 1: was his bible, and he said, I'm going to become
Speaker 1: a professional boxer, and everyone sort of bullshit, you'll be back,
Speaker 1: you'll be in the prison. He breake the cycle. You know,
Speaker 1: you say ninety five percent or whatever it going to
Speaker 1: end up in the adult prison. He actually broke that cycle.
Speaker 1: And he's been doing talks like that and getting into
Speaker 1: juvenile detention centers. And I can't stress enough how powerful
Speaker 1: that would be. Like someone like Nada. I see him.
Speaker 1: He's a hard bastard. You there before, and he was
Speaker 1: there before. He can walk the walk, talk the talk
Speaker 1: and people are going to listen. And yeah, people like
Speaker 1: Nata Joe, yourself going in there. If Australi one eighty
Speaker 1: goes in there and with all the right intentions in
Speaker 1: the world and probably a damn sight more educated than
Speaker 1: all of us put together, they're not going to listen.
Speaker 2: Well, the common question was when I was there, from
Speaker 2: these guys, yeah, what do you need? And they all said,
Speaker 2: these boys, we need people who have lived our experience.
Speaker 2: And that's eighty boys said that. And I remember when
Speaker 2: I was there as a seventeen year old Costas who
Speaker 2: came in, Antony Pullatour and Joane Olava he played for
Speaker 2: Penrith at the time. They won the comp that year
Speaker 2: and they were like heroes of ours yeah, and we're like,
Speaker 2: it's awesome to see you. Yeah, but what you said
Speaker 2: to us didn't spur us on because you don't know
Speaker 2: what we're doing now, what we've gone from.
Speaker 1: But someone that's been there, and yeah, that was a
Speaker 1: that was a I slipped in or I was.
Speaker 2: I went back to my cell and it was a
Speaker 2: young bloke. They're reading his Bible and I go, I said,
Speaker 2: this is what's going on here? But I got to
Speaker 2: go and we had a chat. I said I was
Speaker 2: in this cell mean, and his eyes lit up, Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, man, And now I'm not here
Speaker 2: as an inmate. I come to see you.
Speaker 1: Well, you're showing a few, You're showing them that there
Speaker 1: can be a future.
Speaker 2: That's all we need.
Speaker 1: And that's like with Joe Navy yourself, this is a
Speaker 1: future that you could.
Speaker 2: Have if you class us no chance to go back
Speaker 2: in there, or then there's no chance for them either. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like if we've got the runs on the board, we've
Speaker 2: proved that we we're decent people now and we've got
Speaker 2: the you know, the heart to go back in there
Speaker 2: and serve these guys. We've got to get him in there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because these guys are going to adults who are going
Speaker 2: to commit more serious crimes and hurt more people and
Speaker 2: a cycle is there?
Speaker 1: Is there a resistance because yeah, it's the system. The system.
Speaker 1: We don't need you guys coming back telling us how
Speaker 1: to do it. What where do you find if they're
Speaker 1: is a resistance, where do you find the resistance comes from?
Speaker 2: Well, when I went to the juvenile facility, the resistance
Speaker 2: was actually not there.
Speaker 1: They're they're embracing it and they're desperate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the post code stuff, like you know, the
Speaker 2: juveniles have actually segregated. Now before you're all together. Now
Speaker 2: there's there's gang life. Now the teenagers getting ready for
Speaker 2: prison life.
Speaker 1: We'll see the ship that goes down in Sydney of
Speaker 1: recent times and.
Speaker 2: Sixteen year olds can have people. So the first crime
Speaker 2: now is murder. Yeah, you don't work your way up.
Speaker 2: It's kidnapped, kill people.
Speaker 1: Now, well, it's across the well the Eastern States and
Speaker 1: idea say, yeah, across in the western over in the
Speaker 1: Western Australia as well. But you youth crime. We've got
Speaker 1: to we've got to try something because what they've all
Speaker 1: we're trying is not working.
Speaker 2: And if we don't try to help them now, our
Speaker 2: prisons is going to be filled for the next generation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like it's out of control. Yeah, and Sydney is
Speaker 2: a forty year old man, he's wasted half his life
Speaker 2: and took someone's life. Like, it doesn't get any worse
Speaker 2: it m If I've been able to turn it around,
Speaker 2: you've got to get me in there.
Speaker 1: Well, you've turned it around, and that's perceived as the
Speaker 1: worst of the worst you're a convicted murder and I've
Speaker 1: turned my life around with the jail system. I did
Speaker 1: that Breaking Badness podcast series when I went in the
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center and the way that they're doing the
Speaker 1: jailing there as distinct from the traditional system. So we're
Speaker 1: moved from the juvenile centers. This is into the prison system.
Speaker 1: Where and what they were doing. When I saw it,
Speaker 1: I thought it was really positive and it was a
Speaker 1: way of reducing recidivism. But what I've got a sense
Speaker 1: SAT jail had a different feel from every other jail
Speaker 1: I've been in that there was a respect given. There
Speaker 1: was respect given from the inmates to the staff, the
Speaker 1: staff for giving the inmates respect, which is something I
Speaker 1: hadn't hadn't encountered. I was speaking to a lot of
Speaker 1: the inmates in there and the fact that they were
Speaker 1: given opportunities to make them function better in society. What's
Speaker 1: your take on that style of prison?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there. I did two years there, Yeah, Macquarie,
Speaker 2: and I was taken from liz Go to there, right,
Speaker 2: so I contained in a cell for seven years and
Speaker 2: then in open living dorm style and there was a
Speaker 2: zero violence.
Speaker 1: Tolerance and prisons at the prison and.
Speaker 2: When we got off the truck, they greeted me as Anthony. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've never had that happen. But then as I've stayed
Speaker 2: there for months and then over the year, they treated
Speaker 2: you like human beings. Like I've seen the governor come
Speaker 2: in one day, he raided the unit on Christmas and
Speaker 2: he said, I know he don't like it, but we're
Speaker 2: trying to treat you like animals. That's what we're trained
Speaker 2: to do. I'm coming here as the governor to treat
Speaker 2: you like human beans. And I've told my staff same way,
Speaker 2: and I've never heard a governor say that ever. I thought, okay,
Speaker 2: and he was actually treating us like human beans. And
Speaker 2: then what happened. We reacted like human beans, and we
Speaker 2: started to see amazing things. The boys, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and get an education, working mindset started to change.
Speaker 1: It works. No, I'm a big believer in, like coming
Speaker 1: from the cops, where our way of dealing with crime,
Speaker 1: and I'm talking from the police point of view. We're
Speaker 1: arresting people after they've committed the crimes. But if you
Speaker 1: can prevent it, it has to be a damp site,
Speaker 1: damn sight better.
Speaker 2: Everything should be about prevention. But as I said, like
Speaker 2: before they lock us up and they forget that we
Speaker 2: get out.
Speaker 1: That's a very important point that a lot of people
Speaker 1: think everyone goes that they should be in prison, and
Speaker 1: when they're in prison, they should be breaking rocks and
Speaker 1: eating bread and water to keep them alive. That's bullshit,
Speaker 1: because they're going to be let out.
Speaker 2: And angry, more volatile than ever been because they've just been.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to too many people who have been in
Speaker 1: the prison systems, the old the prison systems, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's still some bad shit going down. Treats like
Speaker 1: animals were going to come out like animals, And it's
Speaker 1: common sense. You've been through it, you've stepped away. You're
Speaker 1: looking at life differently now. So it's interesting getting your
Speaker 1: your views on it, what you've been through and where
Speaker 1: you're at now. How confident are you if there's a
Speaker 1: setback in life, because we all know that there's going
Speaker 1: to be setbacks different things. Have you got the tools
Speaker 1: now to keep on the path that you're on?
Speaker 2: Because I trained myself in custody. I made sure that
Speaker 2: I did fourteen years sober. I didn't take drugs. I
Speaker 2: didn't I made sure that whatever I faced, I faced
Speaker 2: it sober. So I learned how to react like not
Speaker 2: just react to something. I'd think about what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: And for fourteen years I trained myself in that. And
Speaker 2: then now that I've been out for nineteen months, therese
Speaker 2: as things have come. But I can say no, I'm
Speaker 2: confident in that I don't drink anymore, I don't take drugs,
Speaker 2: and I have one hundred percent confidence in myself that
Speaker 2: I have the ability now to make the right decision
Speaker 2: because I do have the tools. And that's the key.
Speaker 1: You've got mentors in life now, the people that you
Speaker 1: look up to and respect and.
Speaker 2: About at least three mentors in my life that older
Speaker 2: gentleman that just speaking to my life hold me accountable,
Speaker 2: that I'm very honest with and I do the same
Speaker 2: for them, and they've walked alongside me for many years.
Speaker 2: And that's crucial. You need to have someone that's older
Speaker 2: than you, wiser than you, that you can go to
Speaker 2: and that won't judge you for what you're doing, but
Speaker 2: hold you accountable or just starting to unpack life with.
Speaker 1: I think holding new accountable is important because if otherwise,
Speaker 1: you can surround yourself with people that the group of
Speaker 1: everything you do, check yourself. You need someone to call
Speaker 1: bullshit on you if you get a job on the
Speaker 1: ball the track.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: So the one thing I've learned is that the true
Speaker 2: character of a man is not what he is, not
Speaker 2: what he's done, is what he does after. And that's
Speaker 2: where I always if it's what I do after, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and that's the key.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a pretty poor life if there's no chance
Speaker 1: of turning your life around. And yeah, criminal psychologists I
Speaker 1: work a lot within the cops would often point out
Speaker 1: to me just because someone's done a bad thing doesn't
Speaker 1: make them a bad person, because I just had my
Speaker 1: cop had on and gave fuck it, look look what
Speaker 1: he's done. Well, oh, that that person mightn't be a
Speaker 1: bad person just because they've done that. It might be
Speaker 1: a thing that's happened before or after, but you judge
Speaker 1: on the totality of it.
Speaker 2: There's a reason for why someone got to that point. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I've learned that, And I was like that, I
Speaker 2: was so judgment on myself. Yeah, never gave anyone a chance,
Speaker 2: not even myself. But there's a reason why. It doesn't
Speaker 2: give you an excuse for what you've done, but you
Speaker 2: can get an understanding of why you've done it and
Speaker 2: then and then change so it doesn't happen again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's that's what's key for me.
Speaker 1: You made it or it just came out in the
Speaker 1: conversation before about thinking before you act. That's a pretty
Speaker 1: important thing to do too. And I look back at
Speaker 1: my life and sometimes if I just took a step
Speaker 1: back and thought about what I'm going to do before
Speaker 1: I did something, my life would have been a lot
Speaker 1: easier and in different different circumstances.
Speaker 2: And that's a tool that the key tool you need
Speaker 2: to train. I had a short few so i'd snap
Speaker 2: and think about after what I've.
Speaker 1: Done after it's done, and look as a person that
Speaker 1: might have snapped a couple of times myself, I've never
Speaker 1: felt good after it. They like, even if I got
Speaker 1: on top of the person I'm snapping on or whatever,
Speaker 1: I walked away. Fuck Jesus, why did I do that?
Speaker 2: If it was as soon as you're reflected about it,
Speaker 2: he gave what a goose? Yeah, Now that is the
Speaker 2: key thing that I've trained in myself. Just be patient,
Speaker 2: don't react to something. It's respond response is different to reacting.
Speaker 1: Well. I learned something doing a philosophy course and it
Speaker 1: was about practical philosophy. And one of the things I
Speaker 1: took away from it you do it. There's lots of
Speaker 1: you get overloaded with bits and pieces. But we didn't
Speaker 1: exercise for a week. The purpose of the exercise was
Speaker 1: before you do something, stop and think what would the
Speaker 1: wise person do? In the lead up to that, we're
Speaker 1: discussing what is a wise person all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: but before you act or respond to something, what would
Speaker 1: a wise person do? And just check yourself on that.
Speaker 1: And we had to do that exercise for the week.
Speaker 1: I reckon I thought with less people in that one
Speaker 1: week I did in my whole life because I was
Speaker 1: stopping and thinking and what would a wise person do?
Speaker 1: And just little simple tips like that. I would imagine,
Speaker 1: I'm talking philosophy, but I would imagine a lot of
Speaker 1: what you get from your religion is that type of.
Speaker 2: That's what Jesus teaches. Don't do not give the you know,
Speaker 2: don't go to sleep angry, be patient, forgive. So if
Speaker 2: I'm patient with someone and process something before I respond
Speaker 2: to them, I'm not going to act out. So that's
Speaker 2: what Jesus did for me. That's what the Bible did
Speaker 2: for me. It taught me and gave me the tools
Speaker 2: to be patient too, to understand maybe there's something going
Speaker 2: on for that person, that's why they're acting that way,
Speaker 2: and don't be so irritable of stupid things, you know.
Speaker 2: So it took a long time for me to I
Speaker 2: suppose grow that muscle, I suppose to able to just
Speaker 2: stop and not react to people. And that's what that's
Speaker 2: what my faith does for me. It's it just it
Speaker 2: just dissolved my anger. Now. It taught me why I'm angry.
Speaker 2: It helped me forgive the people that did things to me.
Speaker 2: It helped me forgive myself what I've done, and and
Speaker 2: it's changed my entire life.
Speaker 1: You know, that's what it does for me. Well, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a huge turnaround. And I'm impressed by how you've
Speaker 1: turned your turned your life around. Like there's pain pain
Speaker 1: in life, and you'll you'll cause enough pain, but yeah,
Speaker 1: steering your life in the in the right direction. For
Speaker 1: full full credit to you. How's your your your future looking, mate?
Speaker 2: The future is and I'm very grateful my future is bright.
Speaker 2: I've worked really hard to put myself in a position too,
Speaker 2: to be a better person, to change my life and
Speaker 2: my faith in Jesus. You know, He's restored all things
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: M hmm.
Speaker 2: It's hard to say that knowing that Eden's family is
Speaker 2: saying this, will hear this, you know. But I know
Speaker 2: every day that I'm not worthy of my second chance,
Speaker 2: and that's that spurs me on to make sure I'm
Speaker 2: intentional about everything that I do, and everything that I
Speaker 2: do now is it's not about myself, it's about others.
Speaker 2: And I don't take you for granted that I've been
Speaker 2: giving this second chance with life when one man hasn't.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's almost you almost feel guilty saying
Speaker 2: that the future is bright.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the fact that you can reflect and take
Speaker 1: it in that way and express it that way. I
Speaker 1: think the thing that you can do best to honor
Speaker 1: Bieden is live a good life now and his family.
Speaker 1: And that's the sense I got from Jessica speaking to her,
Speaker 1: like they would really not appreciate your just giving this
Speaker 1: lip service and not living the good life. So the
Speaker 1: best thing you could do for E and his family
Speaker 1: is lived the good life I would imagine.
Speaker 2: And but they live it for myself, it's living for others.
Speaker 2: That's the That's what Jesus teaches me, and I believe
Speaker 2: it wholeheartedly. And the more that I live for other
Speaker 2: people and see and walk alongside people, now I'm a
Speaker 2: mentor to others and an example which is incredible m hmm.
Speaker 2: And I get to see the fruit of people changing
Speaker 2: their life. And you know, even passed away and his
Speaker 2: life was tragically taken, but I think many are going
Speaker 2: to have going to be impacted positively because of this,
Speaker 2: and it can't take you can't bring him back. At
Speaker 2: least I can do good from what's happened, and that's
Speaker 2: my goal.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm wishing you all the best for the future
Speaker 1: and keep trying to change change people's lives because it's important.
Speaker 1: And I respect you and thank you for coming on
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. It's not an easy subject that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. You knew it was going to be
Speaker 1: difficult right from from the start, but you still agreed
Speaker 1: to come on. And full credit to you and all
Speaker 1: the best for the future.
Speaker 2: Having us on.
Speaker 1: Cheers, cheers,