WEBVTT - 'The grace I didn't deserve': Anthony Jones Pt. 2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.800 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.080 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.519 This is part two of my chat with convicted murderer 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:53.040 Anthony Jones. I ask him the questions Eden Brown's family 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.400 wanted to know about his murder, and we also discussed 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.280 his future plans. This is a heavy episode, one I 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.960 think is worthwhile listening to Anthony Jones. Welcome back to 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:11.920 part two of I Catch Killers. You say that, look, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.319 it's a hard, hard conversation, but yeah, as we're discussed 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.720 on and off Mike. I think it's important that people 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.959 find out exactly what your story is, where you've come from, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.120 and what's happened. And if we go to soft on it, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.600 will people think, well, why are we actually finding out here? 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.840 What's this about? We spoke in part one, I should say, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.560 and how you pleaded guilty, and you explained why you 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.400 pleaded guilty to murder, which is a fairly rare thing. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.679 I also talk about the fact that Jessica Brown's sister, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.960 when I spoke to her, she was happy for me 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.560 to sit down and have you on the podcast, but 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.040 she said there's a couple of things that the family 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:02.040 would like. She clarified that, yeah, her parents, who are 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.919 elderly now, are still living with the pain of losing 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.400 their son, and I think you could under understanderstand that 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.880 that there's a ripple effect when someone's killed and her 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:17.360 life's been taken. There was also headlines that I read 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.360 like looking at when the matter has been reported on 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:26.840 that I think it was attributed to Jessica, where she said, yeah, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.400 this is a terrible situation. Two lives have been lost now, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.040 that to me comes across as someone very generous in 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.799 saying that. I could I've seen a lot of people 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.799 that have lost loved ones in murders and there's no 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.920 thought or consideration given to the person that's involved in 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.080 the murder. How do you feel about that? Just what 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:49.640 I've said. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:53.400 Yeah, Actually I found out a few years later after 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.400 a sentence that she said, you know, two families have 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.520 lost their sons. The only difference is one gets it 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:05.840 back one And I read I got told that maybe 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:11.919 ten years later, and that impacted me enormously. I could 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.800 see that she had some sort of empathy towards me, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.040 I suppose, and by that time I was a very 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.760 different man when I found out that what she said, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:26.840 and you know that deeply, I don't deserve that, you know, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.080 and that kindness kind of grace we call that grace 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:39.360 in Christianity, undeserved favor. And those words that she said, actually, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.760 you know, have helped change me dramatically and propel me 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:44.400 to do what I do. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.080 It's pretty hard to say those type of words, isn't it, 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:50.720 going through the pain that her and the family would 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.400 have would have gone through. And in fact, when I 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:55.600 spoke to her, and I made a note of it 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.720 when I called her after my discussion with you. She 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.720 did point out that we're thrilled he's now making something 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.840 of his life. Like again, that shows a generosity. But 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.560 a little bit about Jessica just to give a sense 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.160 of how this person could find their way to make 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.120 the comments that she has. For the past twenty years, 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.440 Jessica Brown has changed the courses of hundreds of young 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.640 women's lives for the better. The charities she founded, Sister 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.720 the Sister Warrior Woman Foundation support young women at risk 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.240 through pairing with older, successful women role models. Twenty twenty four, 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.559 Jessica gained a position on the Serious Offenders Review Board, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.400 an independent body who makes recommendations to New South Wales 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.920 Commissioner of Corrective Services on the progression of the state's 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.560 most serious offenders. We're getting sidelined here. But she's a 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.160 pretty impressive, impressive person just by that. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.720 Oh yeah, even at my prolaring they said anything's done 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:59.039 enough time. Like what do you say? 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:04.640 It's hard? She asked me. She there's things that the 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.160 family want to know. They want to know that, are 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.719 you taking responsibility for Eden's death? What would you say 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.000 to her in that irresponsible. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.039 Yeah, yeah, but I will say there was never premeditation 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.919 there was never I never had a thought about in 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.919 that night or ever to to kill him, to harm him. 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.760 Just that night. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.320 It just unfolded that way. I take responsibility for it. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.000 What about a couple of other things that she wanted 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.800 accountability acknowledgment of what I did? 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that it all started with the 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:41.640 plead guilty. 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.240 Okay, that's where it began to talk us through that 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:46.680 in regards to accountability. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.039 I wanted to plead duty from the beginning, but obviously 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:54.120 my family begged me to to fight and try to 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.200 come home the whole time. I wanted to plead duty. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.760 Like so the second trol came to where it did, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.040 and I gave me the opportunity to plead guilty. So 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.000 then what I did, plead guilty. I still had a 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.720 long time to go, and I thought, well, plead and 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.400 guilty is one thing. If I don't leave this place 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:21.960 a better man or changed, that's pointless. So after the 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:26.440 plea of guilty too, pretty much instantly after that, when 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.159 I got to this game, I just went to work 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.640 on myself right, and I'm not leaving this place until 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.400 I change. And I made a vow to God because 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.839 I'm a faithful man. I made that to God and 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.000 that I would never be charged and to Eden that 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.960 I'd never be charged for a violent crime again, that 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.120 this violence would leave me and I'll do whatever it 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.080 takes to do that. And I made that vow in 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:54.240 twenty fourteen, and every day since then I've done. Every 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.279 single day, I've worked than myself to change and I've 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.440 never blamed anybody else. I've never said anybody thing about 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.520 anybody else. It was on me. It's my fault. My 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.880 hands have the blood on them. I play guilty to it. 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.480 And what I've done after the plea of guilty proves 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:18.160 to people. It shows people, but mostly to myself. I 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.680 had to prove to myself that there's something good in me, 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:24.640 and that's where God came in and showed me that 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.400 there is something good in me. And everything I do 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.880 now is to show people that I took responsibility for 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.680 what I've done, and everything I do now is to 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.760 change my life so I don't ever do anything like 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.080 that again to anybody else, And now help others to 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.040 figure out why they're so angry. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.720 Well, sitting here opposite you, and I think I can 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.800 judge where you're coming from. In that I've said the 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.600 opposite a lot of people that have committed serious crimes. 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:02.600 And there's certainly I'm seeing the accountability and the acknowledgment. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.000 What about the empathy for what Eden's gone through, Like 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.120 he lost his life, he had his life ahead of 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.800 him and the impact of the family. Talk to me 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.840 through that on your thoughts on that. Well, when I 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.880 say your thoughts on how you feel about that, Oh, look. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.239 I'll carry the pain of that forever in my life 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.440 and I have to. You know, it's my hands that 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:31.000 they lost his son. I can't imagine what they feel 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.920 because I didn't lose your son. You know, I sat 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.880 in jail for many years and had a recurring dream 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.160 thinking what would I do if I was Eden's father 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.480 to me? And I always had this recurring dream that 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.320 one day I'd walk out of the gate and someone 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.439 his father would just shoot me. Yeah, you know, and 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.680 Eden's father is not that type of man. But when 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.760 someone like this happens, anyone's capable of anything. And I 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.320 was actually hoping you do that. That's what I used 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.199 to always dream about. I can't imagine what they're going through. 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:06.400 The hole in their heart will never be healed. It 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.000 will never be filled. All I can do is represent 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.240 myself out here. I've been given a second chance, and 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:14.720 I'm worthy of that second chance. 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:16.240 I know that. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.080 I know that, and that's why I'm coming on here 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.160 to show, hopefully show them that I am a change man, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.600 so they can actually say, well, we'll help them, hopefully 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.320 bring closure that. I don't know how. You can't feel. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.839 I can't take anything back. But if I came out 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.280 here and I was still a scumbag, still being a 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.880 putrid person like that would impact them even more negatively. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.400 And I made sure that that was not going to happen. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:48.760 If they saw me, they're going to see a man 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.520 that's trying to change his life and trying to do better. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.160 Now, that's all I can do. 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.400 My heart aches for them, will always ache for them. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.240 I can te need to pray for them, and I'll 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:03.760 pray for them today i leave this earth. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:05.320 But that's all I can do. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.240 Yeah, because eventually I gotta I gotta, I gotta do this. 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:11.240 It's carrying a weight, isn't it. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:12.800 I've got to carry the well, I'm never not going 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.640 to have the weight, man. Yeah, And I have to 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:15.199 carry that weight. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.800 Yeah, well, yeah, full credit to you coming up or 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.640 fronting up and coming on this podcast. It's not the 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.559 type of podcast you want to come on in your 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.400 circumstances because the hard questions are going to be asked, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.760 and I'm going to look you in the eye and 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.840 if you're bullshitting, I would try to call you on it. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.120 That was that's just the nature of this world, because 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.120 I see the impact that homicides have on the families, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.120 and it's devastating. It carries on for generations. But what 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.720 I'm what I'm hearing is you understand that. And going 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.240 back to the trial, and I heard or read a 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:59.600 report that when you you pleaded guilty to it that yeah, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.120 when and we talked about the accountability and you wanted 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:03.960 to be the first one in the family to stand 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.800 up and except yeah, this is this is what I've done, 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:11.160 the responsibility that it might have been something that you said. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.719 Did your mum actually call out and say that you're 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:14.959 a disgrace to the family. 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.040 Yeah, she stood up when I was I had to 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.720 stand up obviously didn't get it rained again, put my 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.160 plea of guilty, and as I stood she stood up 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.840 and said, you're not my son. You disgrace to the family, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.319 and yeah, my brother removed it from the from the courtroom. 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.720 Is that because you break the criminal code of Yeah, 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.200 not nothing for a crime when you got the chance 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:38.720 of beating it. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.320 Yeah, and somehow I'm letting them down by doing the 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:42.800 right thing. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.640 Right, So you were a disgrace for the crime that 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.760 you committed. You're a disgrace for doing the right thing, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.599 doing the right thing. How did that make you feel. 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.920 When I went back downstairs, I it just validated what 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.839 I was doing. Yeah, like pleading guilty and it shaved 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:01.320 my lawyer. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.600 Okay, this is why. Yeah, this is why. 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:11.760 And yeah, it's probably one of the most impactful things 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:17.280 negatively that she's ever done to me. You know, but 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.800 that's what as what drives me to break this cycle. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.280 Okay, so you're twenty four. Yea, you've gone through what 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.160 you've just described to us. I believe you when you 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:33.199 say you're carrying the guilt of the crime and the 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.360 responsibility of taking a friend's friend's life. You've got your 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.080 family that's turned against you because, in their words, you're 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.640 basically a dog. Because you've told to myself, yeah, you 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.680 gave the prison your sentenced to what was the sentence? 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.280 Eighteen years, eight months. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.679 Okay, and you're twenty four, twenty five. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.600 Yeah, I got sentence. I was twenty six, maybe seven, 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:56.280 twenty six. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.480 Okay, first night in the cells. After all that, you've 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.160 caught up in the emotion of deciding to plead guilty, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:08.760 deciding taking accountability, owning what you've done. Then you've been sentenced, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.200 how your family sturned against you, or your moment least, 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:14.719 how did you feel when you went in the in 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:15.440 the cells. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.439 I felt relief that it was over and I had 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.600 a date, which I was grateful for a date, a goal, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:24.400 but I was kind of numb man. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:25.679 Yeah, just numb. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.080 Just I thought I've done all I can to that 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.480 for that point, but it was just numb. Just got 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:34.240 to get on with it now. 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.760 Survive and survive is probably a good word because there's 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.880 a lot of pitfalls in prison for that period of 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.520 time that that's your environment. You've got to survive. And yeah, 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.800 there's different ways, but you can. You get caught up 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:56.200 in stuff inside in prison. You talked about getting access 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.000 to a Bible and the lead up to pleading guilty, 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:03.120 and that was sort of change changing your thinking. I'm 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.760 not I said to you before we started the podcast, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.760 some other religious man. But anything that helps people live 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.640 a good life, I'm all for if that's and that's 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.000 the impact that it's had on you. When you went 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.600 to start your long your long sentence, were you looking 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.120 towards religion at that stage or you're still finding your 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.040 finding your way? What? What was How did you survive 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.000 jail that, let's say the first twelve months two years? 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.560 How did your process and survive in prison. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.280 The first eighteen months all the way to the first 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.480 trial was just there was no talk of faith at all. 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:37.800 Yeah. 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:42.680 I never came across faith at all. I just surviving it, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.920 you know, every day, just trying to build my case, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.440 trying to figure out how to present this. You're on 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.880 romand so you're just getting ship from jar to jail. Yeah, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.480 you know, you just you're just doing your best in 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.680 there and trying to prepare for trial. And then in 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.600 the first trial I started to pray, which I never 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.960 prayed four but I started praying at the end of 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.280 the troll, and then that led me to the Bible 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.360 for the second troll, and then that led me to 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.560 the plead guilty, that conviction from reading those words the 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.760 truth will see you free. And then for whatever reason, 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.200 I just kept I just started going to Chapel every Sunday. 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.560 When I got to this game, that's where you're doing 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.280 the bulk of your time at lift G. Yeah, I 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.960 did six years there and that's a pretty heavy joy. Yeah, 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.880 it's no nonsense there. Yeah, you know I was. I 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:30.600 wasn't you know? 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.400 I was angry, I was volatile, I was forever reason 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:39.280 I go to Chapel every Sunday just because I knew 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.880 I had an encounter with God and somehow, some way, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.560 and this conviction on my heart was the answers in 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.560 that book for me to change. 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.600 So explain Chapel in prison because people don't get a 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:58.320 sense of it. So you've got other prisoners of the. 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.720 Sunday calls Sunday ten am. Roughly, you've got the pastor 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.520 or the chaplain and there's a call for ten am 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.280 service and whoever wants to go the gates open, you 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.240 go down and it could be five, ten twenty. 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.440 Does it put a target on you? In prison? You 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.120 can't show weakness, and if you show kindness that can 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:20.320 be perceived as weakness, Like if if you've found God, 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.400 you there right for the picking for other prisoners to look. 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:26.800 Everyone's going to judge you. But religion is a big 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.560 thing in jail. You know, it's of Islam or yeah, 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.160 or Jesus or brought up you know, the Asian Boys 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.160 or anyone really, but you know, everyone's holding on to something. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:37.880 But mine was far. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.360 Beyond the crutch. I knew that this has compelled me, 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.400 this is going to change my life. So as the 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:46.280 years went on, I just got deeper and deeper in it. 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:48.760 I could read it for longer than five minutes because 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.920 my attention span. I had to teach myself how to 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.480 read properly, how to teach myself how to be disciplined, 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.680 and read it for longer than ten minutes. And as 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:01.000 I did, it just captivated me. And I just went 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.040 to work on myself and that book guided me. 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.040 Were there crossroads or situations you found yourself in because 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.639 you would have had to stand up for yourself at times? 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:15.880 And how did that work into your You found view 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:17.600 on religion and the way they live your life. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.240 That was the hardest thing to do because everything it's 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.240 telling me to do everything the opposite. Yeah, you know, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.560 to forgive, to love, to turn the other cheek. 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.800 Well that's right. Yeah, well that's what I'm trying to 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:30.359 break down. 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.919 A half years the game, and I'm Jesus telling me 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:34.359 to do these things, right. 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:35.440 Yeah. 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.800 So it took a long time, man, but I never 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.040 gave up in it. And there was altercations that I 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.359 had in prison, of course, and there was one. There 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.159 was one kind of defining one that it changed. It 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.720 probably changed my life, It really changed. It was a 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.680 crossroads moment and then it made me make a decision 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.439 of do you want to die in jail or do 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:55.959 you want to go home? 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.360 Tell us about that. I think I know the one 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.359 you're talking about, And yeah, it should almost be a 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.679 content morning here, because it's pretty heavy. Tell me what 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.800 happened there, tell us in detail what took place. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.679 There's a couple of other inmates that came to my 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:20.640 wing where we live, and we didn't like each other obviously, 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.240 and escalator one day between me and one bloke, but 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.159 then he kind of cowered and didn't want to go 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.040 on with it, and okay, I said, all right. So 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.160 then we got locked in at three thirty into ourselves 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.720 and I knew, okay, tomorrow something's gonna happen for sure. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:37.919 So we get locked in at three o'clock or three 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:42.920 thirty to eight thirty the next day, and I surrendered 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.040 my life to Jesus. You surrender your life, you say 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.400 to come to my life. You live for me. Now 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.120 you take control. And I've done that in January. This 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.080 happened in April, and I'm like, how do I deal 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:53.800 with this? Now? There? 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:55.639 So that door locked. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.000 I just had these mental demons in my head to retaliate. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.160 How I would always retaliate because I know they're coming 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.360 for me. But how do I do I don't want 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.879 to do that. I want to take this seriously. I 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.320 want to change my life. I don't want to be 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.639 violent anymore. And I battled through that all night, and 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.400 then the morning came and I read a powerful verse 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.119 in the Bible which is called Ephesian, the Book of Ephesians, 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.840 chapter six, and it's called the Armor of God. And 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.080 he talks about putting a belt of truth on the 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.520 breastplate of righteousness, a helmet of salvation, a shield of faith, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.200 and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.040 of God. And he says, put on this spiritual armor 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:39.800 and God will protect you. So I prayed that over myself, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.480 and the doors opened at eight thirty, and I promised 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.920 myself and God that I wouldn't attack. I just defend myself. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.280 I had no ideas what happened then, but the doors 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.719 open and the screws are in the jail, opening all 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:53.960 the doors, and he got like sixty to seventy men 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.320 single file walk downstairs to go into the yard to. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:57.840 Go to work. 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.639 But I was a sweeper in the pods. I cleaned 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.879 the pod while the men go to work. So I 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.880 met the rubbish spins and I saw I think three 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.200 men creeping behind the corrective officers. One of a bucket 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.600 and I didn't see what the other blake had a weapon, 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.000 and another blake, And as I seen this guy come 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.600 towards me, I just thought I just looked leaped at him, 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:20.520 but he just threw a bucket hot liquid in my 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:22.760 face and melted my face and. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:23.399 I went blind. 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.919 And then obviously he's just going hectic, and I'm just fighting, 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.119 pretty much blind, trying to defend myself. And then obviously 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.000 the screws are there, so that's it's just got contained 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.639 after a certain time, and I'm contained. I still couldn't 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.320 see you. After minutes of this, and then one of 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.320 the screws he knew me for a long time. I 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:44.679 just said, please give me my hand so I can 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.919 rub my eyes, you know, and he's please don't fight anymore, 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:50.359 and I said, no, I won't, mate, I won't. Just 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.399 let me rub my eyes. And so I got my 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.760 hands and rubbed my eyes. And then as I'm rubbing 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:57.800 my eyes, I could just start to get my vision 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.320 back as my skin was melting, and I said, another 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.520 bloke come up the stairs trying to get me again, 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.840 and then he got tackled and then I could finally 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.400 see again, and my face was just burning, and they 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.080 put me in the shower and then I'm just under 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.200 cold water. And then a lady officer came in and 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.320 she started screaming, like frantically, saying he's been stabbed multiple 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.760 times and you know that'd stab wounds and stuff. I 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:27.320 had no idea and I went to hospital and you know, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.119 they copy to the bed. I'm still a maxim secuity, 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.960 inn't I? And I was just laughing, you know, and 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:32.720 the screws. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.960 Like, what are you laughing? I said, don't worry, man. 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.280 That was a moment for me with God, you saved 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:44.640 my life. And I was bandaged up and I got 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.080 stabbed ten times, but only one wound actually penetrated, right, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:49.800