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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: This is part two of my chat with convicted murderer

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Speaker 1: Anthony Jones. I ask him the questions Eden Brown's family

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Speaker 1: wanted to know about his murder, and we also discussed

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Speaker 1: his future plans. This is a heavy episode, one I

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Speaker 1: think is worthwhile listening to Anthony Jones. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: part two of I Catch Killers. You say that, look,

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Speaker 1: it's a hard, hard conversation, but yeah, as we're discussed

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Speaker 1: on and off Mike. I think it's important that people

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Speaker 1: find out exactly what your story is, where you've come from,

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Speaker 1: and what's happened. And if we go to soft on it,

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Speaker 1: will people think, well, why are we actually finding out here?

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Speaker 1: What's this about? We spoke in part one, I should say,

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Speaker 1: and how you pleaded guilty, and you explained why you

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Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to murder, which is a fairly rare thing.

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Speaker 1: I also talk about the fact that Jessica Brown's sister,

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Speaker 1: when I spoke to her, she was happy for me

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Speaker 1: to sit down and have you on the podcast, but

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Speaker 1: she said there's a couple of things that the family

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Speaker 1: would like. She clarified that, yeah, her parents, who are

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Speaker 1: elderly now, are still living with the pain of losing

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Speaker 1: their son, and I think you could under understanderstand that

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Speaker 1: that there's a ripple effect when someone's killed and her

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Speaker 1: life's been taken. There was also headlines that I read

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Speaker 1: like looking at when the matter has been reported on

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Speaker 1: that I think it was attributed to Jessica, where she said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a terrible situation. Two lives have been lost now,

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Speaker 1: that to me comes across as someone very generous in

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Speaker 1: saying that. I could I've seen a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that have lost loved ones in murders and there's no

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Speaker 1: thought or consideration given to the person that's involved in

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Speaker 1: the murder. How do you feel about that? Just what

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Speaker 1: I've said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually I found out a few years later after

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Speaker 2: a sentence that she said, you know, two families have

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Speaker 2: lost their sons. The only difference is one gets it

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Speaker 2: back one And I read I got told that maybe

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Speaker 2: ten years later, and that impacted me enormously. I could

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Speaker 2: see that she had some sort of empathy towards me,

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Speaker 2: I suppose, and by that time I was a very

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Speaker 2: different man when I found out that what she said,

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Speaker 2: and you know that deeply, I don't deserve that, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that kindness kind of grace we call that grace

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Speaker 2: in Christianity, undeserved favor. And those words that she said, actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, have helped change me dramatically and propel me

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Speaker 2: to do what I do.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to say those type of words, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: going through the pain that her and the family would

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Speaker 1: have would have gone through. And in fact, when I

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Speaker 1: spoke to her, and I made a note of it

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Speaker 1: when I called her after my discussion with you. She

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Speaker 1: did point out that we're thrilled he's now making something

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Speaker 1: of his life. Like again, that shows a generosity. But

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Speaker 1: a little bit about Jessica just to give a sense

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Speaker 1: of how this person could find their way to make

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Speaker 1: the comments that she has. For the past twenty years,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Brown has changed the courses of hundreds of young

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Speaker 1: women's lives for the better. The charities she founded, Sister

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Speaker 1: the Sister Warrior Woman Foundation support young women at risk

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Speaker 1: through pairing with older, successful women role models. Twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: Jessica gained a position on the Serious Offenders Review Board,

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Speaker 1: an independent body who makes recommendations to New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Commissioner of Corrective Services on the progression of the state's

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Speaker 1: most serious offenders. We're getting sidelined here. But she's a

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Speaker 1: pretty impressive, impressive person just by that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, even at my prolaring they said anything's done

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Speaker 2: enough time. Like what do you say?

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Speaker 1: It's hard? She asked me. She there's things that the

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Speaker 1: family want to know. They want to know that, are

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Speaker 1: you taking responsibility for Eden's death? What would you say

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Speaker 1: to her in that irresponsible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I will say there was never premeditation

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Speaker 2: there was never I never had a thought about in

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Speaker 2: that night or ever to to kill him, to harm him.

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Speaker 1: Just that night.

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Speaker 2: It just unfolded that way. I take responsibility for it.

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Speaker 1: What about a couple of other things that she wanted

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Speaker 1: accountability acknowledgment of what I did?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that it all started with the

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Speaker 2: plead guilty.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's where it began to talk us through that

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Speaker 1: in regards to accountability.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to plead duty from the beginning, but obviously

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Speaker 2: my family begged me to to fight and try to

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Speaker 2: come home the whole time. I wanted to plead duty.

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Speaker 2: Like so the second trol came to where it did,

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Speaker 2: and I gave me the opportunity to plead guilty. So

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Speaker 2: then what I did, plead guilty. I still had a

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Speaker 2: long time to go, and I thought, well, plead and

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Speaker 2: guilty is one thing. If I don't leave this place

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Speaker 2: a better man or changed, that's pointless. So after the

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Speaker 2: plea of guilty too, pretty much instantly after that, when

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Speaker 2: I got to this game, I just went to work

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Speaker 2: on myself right, and I'm not leaving this place until

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Speaker 2: I change. And I made a vow to God because

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Speaker 2: I'm a faithful man. I made that to God and

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Speaker 2: that I would never be charged and to Eden that

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Speaker 2: I'd never be charged for a violent crime again, that

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Speaker 2: this violence would leave me and I'll do whatever it

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Speaker 2: takes to do that. And I made that vow in

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and every day since then I've done. Every

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Speaker 2: single day, I've worked than myself to change and I've

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Speaker 2: never blamed anybody else. I've never said anybody thing about

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Speaker 2: anybody else. It was on me. It's my fault. My

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Speaker 2: hands have the blood on them. I play guilty to it.

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Speaker 2: And what I've done after the plea of guilty proves

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Speaker 2: to people. It shows people, but mostly to myself. I

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Speaker 2: had to prove to myself that there's something good in me,

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Speaker 2: and that's where God came in and showed me that

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Speaker 2: there is something good in me. And everything I do

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Speaker 2: now is to show people that I took responsibility for

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Speaker 2: what I've done, and everything I do now is to

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Speaker 2: change my life so I don't ever do anything like

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Speaker 2: that again to anybody else, And now help others to

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Speaker 2: figure out why they're so angry.

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Speaker 1: Well, sitting here opposite you, and I think I can

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Speaker 1: judge where you're coming from. In that I've said the

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Speaker 1: opposite a lot of people that have committed serious crimes.

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Speaker 1: And there's certainly I'm seeing the accountability and the acknowledgment.

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Speaker 1: What about the empathy for what Eden's gone through, Like

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Speaker 1: he lost his life, he had his life ahead of

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Speaker 1: him and the impact of the family. Talk to me

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Speaker 1: through that on your thoughts on that. Well, when I

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Speaker 1: say your thoughts on how you feel about that, Oh, look.

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Speaker 2: I'll carry the pain of that forever in my life

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Speaker 2: and I have to. You know, it's my hands that

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Speaker 2: they lost his son. I can't imagine what they feel

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Speaker 2: because I didn't lose your son. You know, I sat

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Speaker 2: in jail for many years and had a recurring dream

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Speaker 2: thinking what would I do if I was Eden's father

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Speaker 2: to me? And I always had this recurring dream that

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Speaker 2: one day I'd walk out of the gate and someone

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Speaker 2: his father would just shoot me. Yeah, you know, and

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Speaker 2: Eden's father is not that type of man. But when

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Speaker 2: someone like this happens, anyone's capable of anything. And I

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Speaker 2: was actually hoping you do that. That's what I used

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Speaker 2: to always dream about. I can't imagine what they're going through.

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Speaker 2: The hole in their heart will never be healed. It

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Speaker 2: will never be filled. All I can do is represent

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Speaker 2: myself out here. I've been given a second chance, and

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Speaker 2: I'm worthy of that second chance.

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Speaker 1: I know that.

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Speaker 2: I know that, and that's why I'm coming on here

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Speaker 2: to show, hopefully show them that I am a change man,

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Speaker 2: so they can actually say, well, we'll help them, hopefully

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Speaker 2: bring closure that. I don't know how. You can't feel.

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Speaker 2: I can't take anything back. But if I came out

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Speaker 2: here and I was still a scumbag, still being a

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Speaker 2: putrid person like that would impact them even more negatively.

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Speaker 2: And I made sure that that was not going to happen.

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Speaker 2: If they saw me, they're going to see a man

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Speaker 2: that's trying to change his life and trying to do better.

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Speaker 1: Now, that's all I can do.

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Speaker 2: My heart aches for them, will always ache for them.

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Speaker 2: I can te need to pray for them, and I'll

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Speaker 2: pray for them today i leave this earth.

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Speaker 1: But that's all I can do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because eventually I gotta I gotta, I gotta do this.

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Speaker 1: It's carrying a weight, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I've got to carry the well, I'm never not going

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Speaker 2: to have the weight, man. Yeah, And I have to

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Speaker 2: carry that weight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, full credit to you coming up or

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Speaker 1: fronting up and coming on this podcast. It's not the

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Speaker 1: type of podcast you want to come on in your

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Speaker 1: circumstances because the hard questions are going to be asked,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to look you in the eye and

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Speaker 1: if you're bullshitting, I would try to call you on it.

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Speaker 1: That was that's just the nature of this world, because

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Speaker 1: I see the impact that homicides have on the families,

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Speaker 1: and it's devastating. It carries on for generations. But what

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Speaker 1: I'm what I'm hearing is you understand that. And going

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Speaker 1: back to the trial, and I heard or read a

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Speaker 1: report that when you you pleaded guilty to it that yeah,

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Speaker 1: when and we talked about the accountability and you wanted

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Speaker 1: to be the first one in the family to stand

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Speaker 1: up and except yeah, this is this is what I've done,

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Speaker 1: the responsibility that it might have been something that you said.

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Speaker 1: Did your mum actually call out and say that you're

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Speaker 1: a disgrace to the family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she stood up when I was I had to

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Speaker 2: stand up obviously didn't get it rained again, put my

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Speaker 2: plea of guilty, and as I stood she stood up

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Speaker 2: and said, you're not my son. You disgrace to the family,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, my brother removed it from the from the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: Is that because you break the criminal code of Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not nothing for a crime when you got the chance

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Speaker 1: of beating it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and somehow I'm letting them down by doing the

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Speaker 2: right thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you were a disgrace for the crime that

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Speaker 1: you committed. You're a disgrace for doing the right thing,

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Speaker 1: doing the right thing. How did that make you feel.

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Speaker 2: When I went back downstairs, I it just validated what

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Speaker 2: I was doing. Yeah, like pleading guilty and it shaved

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Speaker 2: my lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is why. Yeah, this is why.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's probably one of the most impactful things

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Speaker 2: negatively that she's ever done to me. You know, but

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Speaker 2: that's what as what drives me to break this cycle.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're twenty four. Yea, you've gone through what

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Speaker 1: you've just described to us. I believe you when you

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Speaker 1: say you're carrying the guilt of the crime and the

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Speaker 1: responsibility of taking a friend's friend's life. You've got your

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Speaker 1: family that's turned against you because, in their words, you're

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Speaker 1: basically a dog. Because you've told to myself, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: gave the prison your sentenced to what was the sentence?

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Speaker 2: Eighteen years, eight months.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you're twenty four, twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got sentence. I was twenty six, maybe seven,

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Speaker 2: twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Okay, first night in the cells. After all that, you've

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Speaker 1: caught up in the emotion of deciding to plead guilty,

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Speaker 1: deciding taking accountability, owning what you've done. Then you've been sentenced,

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Speaker 1: how your family sturned against you, or your moment least,

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Speaker 1: how did you feel when you went in the in

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Speaker 1: the cells.

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Speaker 2: I felt relief that it was over and I had

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Speaker 2: a date, which I was grateful for a date, a goal,

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Speaker 2: but I was kind of numb man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just numb.

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Speaker 2: Just I thought I've done all I can to that

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Speaker 2: for that point, but it was just numb. Just got

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Speaker 2: to get on with it now.

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Speaker 1: Survive and survive is probably a good word because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of pitfalls in prison for that period of

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Speaker 1: time that that's your environment. You've got to survive. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's different ways, but you can. You get caught up

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Speaker 1: in stuff inside in prison. You talked about getting access

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Speaker 1: to a Bible and the lead up to pleading guilty,

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Speaker 1: and that was sort of change changing your thinking. I'm

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Speaker 1: not I said to you before we started the podcast,

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Speaker 1: some other religious man. But anything that helps people live

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Speaker 1: a good life, I'm all for if that's and that's

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Speaker 1: the impact that it's had on you. When you went

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Speaker 1: to start your long your long sentence, were you looking

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Speaker 1: towards religion at that stage or you're still finding your

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Speaker 1: finding your way? What? What was How did you survive

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Speaker 1: jail that, let's say the first twelve months two years?

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Speaker 1: How did your process and survive in prison.

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Speaker 2: The first eighteen months all the way to the first

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Speaker 2: trial was just there was no talk of faith at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I never came across faith at all. I just surviving it,

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Speaker 2: you know, every day, just trying to build my case,

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to present this. You're on

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Speaker 2: romand so you're just getting ship from jar to jail. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, you just you're just doing your best in

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Speaker 2: there and trying to prepare for trial. And then in

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Speaker 2: the first trial I started to pray, which I never

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Speaker 2: prayed four but I started praying at the end of

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Speaker 2: the troll, and then that led me to the Bible

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Speaker 2: for the second troll, and then that led me to

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Speaker 2: the plead guilty, that conviction from reading those words the

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Speaker 2: truth will see you free. And then for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: I just kept I just started going to Chapel every Sunday.

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Speaker 1: When I got to this game, that's where you're doing

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Speaker 1: the bulk of your time at lift G. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: did six years there and that's a pretty heavy joy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's no nonsense there. Yeah, you know I was. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't you know?

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Speaker 2: I was angry, I was volatile, I was forever reason

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Speaker 2: I go to Chapel every Sunday just because I knew

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Speaker 2: I had an encounter with God and somehow, some way,

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Speaker 2: and this conviction on my heart was the answers in

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Speaker 2: that book for me to change.

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Speaker 1: So explain Chapel in prison because people don't get a

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Speaker 1: sense of it. So you've got other prisoners of the.

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Speaker 2: Sunday calls Sunday ten am. Roughly, you've got the pastor

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Speaker 2: or the chaplain and there's a call for ten am

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Speaker 2: service and whoever wants to go the gates open, you

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Speaker 2: go down and it could be five, ten twenty.

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Speaker 1: Does it put a target on you? In prison? You

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Speaker 1: can't show weakness, and if you show kindness that can

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Speaker 1: be perceived as weakness, Like if if you've found God,

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Speaker 1: you there right for the picking for other prisoners to look.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's going to judge you. But religion is a big

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Speaker 2: thing in jail. You know, it's of Islam or yeah,

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Speaker 2: or Jesus or brought up you know, the Asian Boys

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Speaker 2: or anyone really, but you know, everyone's holding on to something.

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Speaker 1: But mine was far.

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Speaker 2: Beyond the crutch. I knew that this has compelled me,

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Speaker 2: this is going to change my life. So as the

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Speaker 2: years went on, I just got deeper and deeper in it.

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Speaker 2: I could read it for longer than five minutes because

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Speaker 2: my attention span. I had to teach myself how to

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Speaker 2: read properly, how to teach myself how to be disciplined,

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Speaker 2: and read it for longer than ten minutes. And as

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Speaker 2: I did, it just captivated me. And I just went

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Speaker 2: to work on myself and that book guided me.

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Speaker 1: Were there crossroads or situations you found yourself in because

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Speaker 1: you would have had to stand up for yourself at times?

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Speaker 1: And how did that work into your You found view

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Speaker 1: on religion and the way they live your life.

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Speaker 2: That was the hardest thing to do because everything it's

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Speaker 2: telling me to do everything the opposite. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: to forgive, to love, to turn the other cheek.

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Speaker 1: Well that's right. Yeah, well that's what I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: break down.

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Speaker 2: A half years the game, and I'm Jesus telling me

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Speaker 2: to do these things, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it took a long time, man, but I never

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Speaker 2: gave up in it. And there was altercations that I

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Speaker 2: had in prison, of course, and there was one. There

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Speaker 2: was one kind of defining one that it changed. It

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Speaker 2: probably changed my life, It really changed. It was a

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Speaker 2: crossroads moment and then it made me make a decision

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Speaker 2: of do you want to die in jail or do

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Speaker 2: you want to go home?

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Speaker 1: Tell us about that. I think I know the one

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, And yeah, it should almost be a

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Speaker 1: content morning here, because it's pretty heavy. Tell me what

326
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Speaker 1: happened there, tell us in detail what took place.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of other inmates that came to my

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Speaker 2: wing where we live, and we didn't like each other obviously,

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Speaker 2: and escalator one day between me and one bloke, but

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Speaker 2: then he kind of cowered and didn't want to go

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Speaker 2: on with it, and okay, I said, all right. So

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Speaker 2: then we got locked in at three thirty into ourselves

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Speaker 2: and I knew, okay, tomorrow something's gonna happen for sure.

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Speaker 2: So we get locked in at three o'clock or three

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Speaker 2: thirty to eight thirty the next day, and I surrendered

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Speaker 2: my life to Jesus. You surrender your life, you say

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Speaker 2: to come to my life. You live for me. Now

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Speaker 2: you take control. And I've done that in January. This

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Speaker 2: happened in April, and I'm like, how do I deal

340
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Speaker 2: with this? Now? There?

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Speaker 1: So that door locked.

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Speaker 2: I just had these mental demons in my head to retaliate.

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Speaker 2: How I would always retaliate because I know they're coming

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Speaker 2: for me. But how do I do I don't want

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Speaker 2: to do that. I want to take this seriously. I

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Speaker 2: want to change my life. I don't want to be

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Speaker 2: violent anymore. And I battled through that all night, and

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Speaker 2: then the morning came and I read a powerful verse

349
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Speaker 2: in the Bible which is called Ephesian, the Book of Ephesians,

350
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Speaker 2: chapter six, and it's called the Armor of God. And

351
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Speaker 2: he talks about putting a belt of truth on the

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Speaker 2: breastplate of righteousness, a helmet of salvation, a shield of faith,

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Speaker 2: and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word

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Speaker 2: of God. And he says, put on this spiritual armor

355
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Speaker 2: and God will protect you. So I prayed that over myself,

356
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Speaker 2: and the doors opened at eight thirty, and I promised

357
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Speaker 2: myself and God that I wouldn't attack. I just defend myself.

358
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Speaker 2: I had no ideas what happened then, but the doors

359
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Speaker 2: open and the screws are in the jail, opening all

360
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Speaker 2: the doors, and he got like sixty to seventy men

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Speaker 2: single file walk downstairs to go into the yard to.

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Speaker 1: Go to work.

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Speaker 2: But I was a sweeper in the pods. I cleaned

364
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Speaker 2: the pod while the men go to work. So I

365
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Speaker 2: met the rubbish spins and I saw I think three

366
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Speaker 2: men creeping behind the corrective officers. One of a bucket

367
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Speaker 2: and I didn't see what the other blake had a weapon,

368
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Speaker 2: and another blake, And as I seen this guy come

369
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Speaker 2: towards me, I just thought I just looked leaped at him,

370
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Speaker 2: but he just threw a bucket hot liquid in my

371
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Speaker 2: face and melted my face and.

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Speaker 1: I went blind.

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Speaker 2: And then obviously he's just going hectic, and I'm just fighting,

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Speaker 2: pretty much blind, trying to defend myself. And then obviously

375
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Speaker 2: the screws are there, so that's it's just got contained

376
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Speaker 2: after a certain time, and I'm contained. I still couldn't

377
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Speaker 2: see you. After minutes of this, and then one of

378
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Speaker 2: the screws he knew me for a long time. I

379
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 2: just said, please give me my hand so I can

380
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Speaker 2: rub my eyes, you know, and he's please don't fight anymore,

381
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Speaker 2: and I said, no, I won't, mate, I won't. Just

382
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Speaker 2: let me rub my eyes. And so I got my

383
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Speaker 2: hands and rubbed my eyes. And then as I'm rubbing

384
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Speaker 2: my eyes, I could just start to get my vision

385
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Speaker 2: back as my skin was melting, and I said, another

386
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Speaker 2: bloke come up the stairs trying to get me again,

387
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: and then he got tackled and then I could finally

388
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Speaker 2: see again, and my face was just burning, and they

389
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: put me in the shower and then I'm just under

390
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Speaker 2: cold water. And then a lady officer came in and

391
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 2: she started screaming, like frantically, saying he's been stabbed multiple

392
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 2: times and you know that'd stab wounds and stuff. I

393
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: had no idea and I went to hospital and you know,

394
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 2: they copy to the bed. I'm still a maxim secuity,

395
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 2: inn't I? And I was just laughing, you know, and

396
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Speaker 2: the screws.

397
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Speaker 1: Like, what are you laughing? I said, don't worry, man.

398
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Speaker 2: That was a moment for me with God, you saved

399
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Speaker 2: my life. And I was bandaged up and I got

400
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: stabbed ten times, but only one wound actually penetrated, right,

401
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: And I was like, and they said, you're going to

402
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 2: be scarred. Your face is going to be mangled for you.

403
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: You know that that hot liquid that threw over, that

404
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: melded your face. That's a bit of a prison and

405
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Speaker 1: it's almost like a Nate palm.

406
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just blinds you and melt your face. It's

407
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 2: not just hot water, sugar, whatever they can get in there.

408
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 1: So it sticks to your skin and burns. And I

409
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: think the prison more than had your skin on these hands.

410
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: To Yeah, the prison guard, I look down, he said

411
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: what's this? He goes, this is your skin. And then

412
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 2: so I went When I went back to the jails,

413
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, but I said, I'm going back to

414
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: the main population, like you're not putting in any protective custody. Yeah,

415
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: And he's like, yeah, you're going back. So I went

416
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 2: back to the wing. And then a good made of

417
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: mine is like a mentor, you know.

418
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Speaker 1: The older guy.

419
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 2: He come and saw me and he said, mate, like

420
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: the way you're going, you're going to die. You are

421
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: so violent. You disrespect, like people want to kill you.

422
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: They look how many people tried to come today to

423
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: kill you. They're over going to get locked in, segre

424
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: They're going to send data and you're going become like

425
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 2: a zombie.

426
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Speaker 1: Are you going to die?

427
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: He goes, I could have punched my way through this sentence,

428
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: but I didn't. He's been in for nineteen years at

429
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: that time, So you've got to survive this a j

430
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: because I'm only telling you because I love you, mate,

431
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 2: And I just sat there and that night I got

432
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Speaker 2: locked in and I said, Okay, I don't make changes.

433
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Speaker 1: Man.

434
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Speaker 2: If I'm going to be a Christian, I'm going to

435
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: follow this way and I'm going to get out of

436
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: jar on one piece.

437
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: Because when you came back and you weren't going in protection,

438
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: were you and I take on board that you were

439
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: put in your faith in Yeah? Were you thinking, well,

440
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: does God say anywhere revenge? Or you went from scriptures? Yeah?

441
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: Where can I get these?

442
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah?

443
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: Well that's where I'm thinking. Which way are you going

444
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 1: to go with it? What's your interpretation?

445
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,239
Speaker 2: I went there and and you know it didn't end

446
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: for me. I navigate dramas for the next couple of

447
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: years about this.

448
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: Well, an incident like that, people are going to look

449
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 1: at you and think you're a weak prick if you don't.

450
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: How so, you're watched by the jarl, the inmates, the screws.

451
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 2: People's want blood in that place.

452
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: You know they're bored.

453
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: But that was a true line in the end for

454
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 2: me because it showed me in that moment that I'm

455
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: not I could actually change, I could actually control my violence.

456
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: If I could. I didn't do what I would usually do.

457
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So just so I can break that down, understand

458
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: you're thinking here, So usually there would be retribution for

459
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: an attack like that, for sure, and you made a

460
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 1: conscious decision, in keeping with your faith not to that

461
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: you weren't going to. And that's the path that you

462
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: went on as.

463
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: The path I went on, and you know, God protected me.

464
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: I had a lot of navi. I had to navigate

465
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 2: for a couple of years.

466
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: Tell us what you mean by you, like other.

467
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: Dudes coming from other jails to try to kill me

468
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 2: again and all things like that, and I just had

469
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: to deal with it straight away. And end of the day,

470
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: I still had to defend myself, like I can't I'm

471
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: in jail, So I just make sure I confront of

472
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 2: them first, you know how I am? Yeah, are you

473
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: here to get me? And then nearly all of them

474
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: back off. There's a couple that came close.

475
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

476
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: I got through that, and I was got through it,

477
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: and I honored my faith and in the end I

478
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: was able to forgive these guys. And it was a

479
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: turning point in my life.

480
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: Is there a turning point to where inmates? So I'm

481
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: trying to get the sense of it and the path

482
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: that you've taken where you start to get some respect

483
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: back for actually changing your life. Like, I know a

484
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: lot of people in there want to drag you down,

485
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: and no, you're one of us. You're going to be

486
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: coming back. But I would imagine the ones that stand

487
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: up and separate themselves from the pack eventually or maybe

488
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: they get some respect.

489
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 2: Definitely when you're one of the guys that used to

490
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: be a certain.

491
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: Way, Okay, that was credibility that you haven't come in soft. Yeah.

492
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: I wasn't not a junkie. I wasn't you know. I

493
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: held myself there. Yeah, I still had morals. Yeah, I've

494
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: done some horrible things. But when I started to change,

495
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: was that dramatic it's all the water. I went from

496
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: hating guys to loving them over time, and my closest

497
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: mates and even guys that hated me in the end

498
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: started to say, man, well done, bro, Yeah, like you've changed,

499
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: and they were actually proud of me, and and they

500
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: let me go. The system knew that I've changed, and

501
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: I'm moving on with my life. I've been given this

502
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 2: second chance, I'm taking it. And if someone is genuine

503
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: in there, because I'll call bullshit straight away. You just

504
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: watch each other every single day. And I was in

505
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: there for a decade and a half, so they watch

506
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: every move of me.

507
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, of the bullshit, then you can't fake it. Well, yeah,

508
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: there's someone that comes up for the pro board. No,

509
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: I found God now and I.

510
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 2: Had approved that to people. He just found God. It's

511
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: a crutch, even to my own fam.

512
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty easy easy cop out of this course.

513
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: And everybody is saying that you leave God at the gate. Yeah,

514
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: and I made sure that I didn't leave got at

515
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: the game.

516
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: Okay, study, like you start reading the Bible, but did

517
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: you get to do any study when you're insight? Yeah?

518
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: So when I started really delving into this thing, I

519
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 2: thought because I knew it can change people. It's changing me,

520
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: you can change others. So how do I teach people this?

521
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: And I thought I got Someone told me, you got

522
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: to go to Bible college if you want to become

523
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: a preacher or a pastor. I said, I don't know,

524
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: I want to do that. But eventually when I got

525
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: to Minim Security, I tried for many years to get

526
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 2: into a Bible college through correspondence and then eventually I

527
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: met an awesome chaplain when I got to Minim Security,

528
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: and he's you know, he kind of evaluated me. He

529
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: used to sit just like you are, look for holes

530
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: in me, in my story and what I'm saying, and

531
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 2: eventually have about six weeks he said, man, okay, you're

532
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: the real deal. I wanted what do you want to do?

533
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 2: And I said, I want to get a Bible college. Man,

534
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 2: I want to get my degree and become a pastor.

535
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: And he said, let's try and make this happen. And

536
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,959
Speaker 2: now I've got a Bachelor of Ministry, I'm a qualified

537
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: pastor and started my masters. I never went to school,

538
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: but I was determined to get my education. Wasn't about

539
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: a degree, he was about getting my education. Yeah, and

540
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: I was able to get that now. And I started

541
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: that in twenty twenty when I was in jail and

542
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: completed it three months after I got out.

543
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: How did that help you? Like studying the course that

544
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: you were studying, but any any study? Do you think

545
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: that was said? Because purpose O purpose? And it proved

546
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: to me that I'm not stupid? Yeah, yeah, well you're

547
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: still that from your childhood.

548
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I was called maggot by my father.

549
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

550
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: All my life sticks with you and myself worth, you know. So,

551
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: and I was afraid of education. I thought they've scared me.

552
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: So to prove that I could do this, that's what

553
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: it meant to me. And education is a way of

554
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: setting you free as well. You know. Now I can

555
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: get a job, I can be like I lost so

556
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: many portunities because I didn't believe in myself and had

557
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: no education.

558
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: There's power to knowledge is power, Knowledge is bound And yeah,

559
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: you can keep yourself physically fit, and that's that. There's

560
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: a power power in that. The knowledge adds another another layer.

561
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: And both together. You can't just be a machine with

562
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: no knowledge and no education. I was that I was

563
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: turning myself into this machine. But internally I was still dead.

564
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: So you're doing the full on gym.

565
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: Trained constantly, but I'm becoming angry and more volatile and stronger.

566
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: But then when I blended the faith and then my

567
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: education together, it gave me balance and the holistic balance

568
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: that you know, my physical, my mental, my faith, it's

569
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: all in sync now everything was missing before it was

570
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: one without the others.

571
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: It makes sense you need that balance to have.

572
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 2: That balance, and for me, I figured out how I function,

573
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: that I need routine, that I need to be disciplined,

574
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: and that's how I've been able to achieve this in

575
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: the road to transformation.

576
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: In the In the prison system, you've said you had

577
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: difficulties starting, but once you're in there was that something

578
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: that you think there could be more of in the

579
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: prison system giving people access to education.

580
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: There's limited education, yeah, and there's things you can do,

581
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: but it's very limited. So they need to offer obviously,

582
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: trades or things that some that a man has actually

583
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: got hunger for. There's no point doing something if he

584
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do it. But if they give these

585
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: opportunities to go to education or university and not just

586
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: cert twos and cert threes, it gives you no qualification.

587
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: They only give you half a qualification in there. They

588
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: need to give full qualifications. I could have done four

589
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: trades in my time. So the opportunity is there. Not

590
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: everyone's going to take it.

591
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: Though, more fuel them if they don't take the opportunity

592
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: and if you're in there. But I think there's a

593
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: benefit to having some purpose and direction when you walk

594
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: out of a walk out of a prison.

595
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: Or if you don't, you're coming back.

596
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, playing and symbol You think it's that simple.

597
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: It is a simple. Yeah, you don't have a plan

598
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: or purpose. You were coming back because it's too overwhelming,

599
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: especially after a big sentence.

600
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: So how long did you end up serving?

601
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: I did four Dane straight.

602
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: How would you describe yourself from the time you went

603
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: in to the time you walked out?

604
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: Give us a version of unrecognizable broken. I was a man,

605
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: but a broken boy inside but in a man's body,

606
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: just no hope, just angry, judgmental, negative and just totally broken.

607
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: Now a man that's redeemed and has hope, and not

608
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: just to hope for myself. I see hope in others.

609
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: I lost hope in people and I have that back now.

610
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: And when you've been given a second chance when you

611
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: don't deserve one. From what I've done, life is you

612
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: look at life a lot differently, you know, And I

613
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: just want to instead of taking everything I've taken, I

614
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: just want to give back. My life's about giving now

615
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: and just helping as many people as I can to

616
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: not go down the road of incarceration, because when you're

617
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: in that cycle, it's almost impossible to break.

618
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: How with your qualifications and the study, what are you

619
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: doing your master's in the ministry as well? Okay, and

620
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: where do you hope to steer your career in your life?

621
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: Well, I thought pastoral ministry was going to be the key.

622
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: But I can't get a working in a children' chip

623
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: because of the charge of murder, and I understand, so

624
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: I can never get that. I can never be a

625
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: paid pastor in a church and have that as my profession.

626
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: So I've had to move the goalposts. But I think

627
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: it's been the right move and I'm going to I'm

628
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: starting a charity which is going to launch in a

629
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: couple of weeks, non for profit charity, which is called

630
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: No Chance Movement or No Chance Ministry. And I was

631
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: classed no Chance from very early on and no chance

632
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: of rehabilitation. And Jesus turned my chance into a second chance.

633
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: And when you meet these guys and these women in

634
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: prisons and in these life that's the language no chance.

635
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: And I'm walking toward an example. If you take the opportunity,

636
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: you can change your life. So now I've been able

637
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: to go into the juvenile facilities and tell my story

638
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: of who I was and where I am and what

639
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: I've been able to get to to give these guys

640
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: hope hopefully to change your life.

641
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: You'd have their attention when you walk into a juvenile.

642
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: Definitely, as soon as they those stories knew that some

643
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: of the things I've said, and then obviously telling them

644
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: I was there twenty three years ago, just exactly where

645
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: you were.

646
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: You know, they listen and can you do that? And

647
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: I'm asking this respectfully that if you come there and

648
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: if you're preaching religion, do they switch off or do

649
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: It's not so much preaching religion, that's showing the way

650
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: to live their life for a purpose their life.

651
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: For me, I changed my life only because of Jesus.

652
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: All that's for you, that's for me.

653
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: I'm always going to tell you to go to Jesus first, Yeah,

654
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: but you just do whatever you need to do to

655
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: change your life. I'm just there to show you that

656
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: if you want this more than anything in your life,

657
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: which I do. I still do now, and it doesn't

658
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: matter what circumstance you're in. And if you change your

659
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: victim mentality to victory so you're not a victim, you're

660
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: a victor, you can change anything.

661
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: Break that down for us.

662
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: So in prison, everyone majority of the mentality is victor mentality.

663
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: We do what we do because of what we come from.

664
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: I could easily sit here and go I did all

665
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: these things because of my childhood, but that's that's bullshit.

666
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: I still knew what right and wrong was. I didn't

667
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: have the tools, the right tools to actually be a

668
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: functioning I think citizen of in society. I had to

669
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: learn that. But there's no way I could have got

670
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: to where I am now if I've said I'm a victim.

671
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: I'm not a victim. You know, And that mentality keeps

672
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: you in the cycle, that keeps you in prison, that

673
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: keeps you doing the wrong, being hurting people rather than

674
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: people and justifying your actions. And as soon as I

675
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: flip that and accept the responsibility and I'm not a victim.

676
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: It changed everything for me, and that's for me. That's

677
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: the key.

678
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: It's a mindset, isn't it. But it's an important mindset

679
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: because we can all we can all look at our

680
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: lives and go, oh, this happened to me. Therefore, this

681
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 1: is why I'm doing this. I'd like that, and I

682
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: think in today's society we probably need it more than

683
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: ever because people are I haven't got that resilience and

684
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm talking to younger, younger people and saying, oh, well,

685
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: this happened, therefore I'm doing this.

686
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: But and that's what I've seen, what I've since been

687
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: out of custody, that mindset. There's no grit, there's no resilience,

688
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: and I don't know how you teach that, but you've

689
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 2: got to. You've got to. You've got to want that.

690
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: You've got to endure. And I wish people don't have

691
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: to go through what I've gone through and the tragic events,

692
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: you know, even losing his life. But and I can

693
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: never make up for it. But me changing my life,

694
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: maybe I can stop someone else doing this, you know,

695
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: And it's not about me, it's about other people.

696
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: If you could make Anthony, if you can just change

697
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: one person's life. You're contributing to society. Yeah, it's just

698
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: one person. If you go in there as a group

699
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: of twenty young fellas or young fellas and girls in detention,

700
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: then you can turn one life that's making a difference.

701
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: That's a ripple effect. We talk about the ripple effect

702
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: from a homicide, how many people will affect. But if

703
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: you get one person turning around. So what's the message.

704
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here as a smart as sixteen seventeen year old,

705
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: go and what the fuck are you going to teach me?

706
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: And you just give it to them, Raw, this is

707
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: what I've been through and this is what can be done.

708
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: I tell them what I've been through. I tell them

709
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: what I've done. Yeah, but I also tell them that

710
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: you're not going to listen to me today. Listen to

711
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: me probably when you're thirty thirty five, in that spot

712
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 2: where you mature into a man and then you're going

713
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: to remember some dude came in and told me, and

714
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 2: you're going to remember and you're ever going to act

715
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: on that or you're going to remain for the rest

716
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: of your life in the cycle. I said, because that's

717
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: what happened to me. I had men talk to me

718
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: and give me good advice, but I didn't kick It

719
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: didn't kick in till like thirty Yeah, and then I

720
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: was like, should have listened. I said, you're all going

721
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: to jail. I told him when I went to the facility,

722
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: I said, put your hand up if you think you're

723
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 2: going to jail. And they were a bit shy. I said,

724
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: pretty much, satistically, ninety odd percent a going to jail,

725
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: and they all gave me the nod. And I said,

726
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: so when this kicks in, you're going to remember some

727
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: of the things I've said. I hope one of his

728
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: takes it on board now, but I don't think you will,

729
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 2: because I never did. I said, but you've got a chance.

730
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: Don't believe the lie of no chance. And that's kind

731
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: of I just say it to And they were kind

732
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: of shocked because they're thinking, I'm just going to tell

733
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: them change your life now.

734
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: But it's not going to happen. Some will.

735
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: It's going to happen a lot longer down the road.

736
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: Have you had any that have surprised you when you've

737
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: spoken to them, And yeah, a response that sort of oh,

738
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: I might have got through to that person.

739
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: Oh, some of the sponsors have been really good. Yeah,

740
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: And I think, well, it may be, but what tools

741
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: does he have to do it? That's the thing.

742
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: Explain that because I think it's an important point.

743
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: I wanted to change when I was seventeen, like I

744
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: wanted out, but I was like, I don't even know

745
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: how to read and write properly.

746
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: I don't know how to speak properly. I don't have.

747
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: The tools or the vocabulary to even articulate what's going

748
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: inside of me and to ask what I need or

749
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 2: to tell someone what I need. I couldn't even tell

750
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: you that I wanted to change. So how are they

751
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: going to change if they don't have the tools or

752
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: the support to change they want to change, And that's

753
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: where the missing pieces. I don't know how we do

754
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: that yet. There's a kid I went in there. He

755
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: said at seventeen, only recently that he's no chance of rehabilitation.

756
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: And that's his viewpointless at seventeen, right, and the guard

757
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: that works theres are made of mine. And when I

758
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: went in there because I want you to speak to him,

759
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 2: AJ because he sounds like you and all the things

760
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: you've told me and I've got to meet this kid

761
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: and tell him some of the things I've told you've

762
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 2: got today. And he was crying and I said, you'll, you'll,

763
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 2: You've got a second chance, mate, if you believe it,

764
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: and he could see in his heart and his eyes

765
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: that he's like, wow, I do. But does he have

766
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 2: the tools? Does he have the support? And if he doesn't,

767
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 2: how can we give it to him? And I think

768
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: that's what we've got to We've got to get around

769
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: people and do that.

770
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: Okay, how then how can we do that?

771
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: First step I think is that the facilities that these

772
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: kids are in, they've only got guards and your mentors

773
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: that you know, are their authority. They're police to them,

774
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: so they don't care what they say. They need to

775
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: get guys in who've lived the experience. And there's not

776
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: many men that have changed, and if there are not,

777
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: many want to go back. But you need to bring

778
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: these guys in to show them there's not make sure

779
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: they're the real deal, but bring these guys into the facilities,

780
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: let them see themselves that I was you, but you

781
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: can be me now. And I think that's where we've

782
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: got to start. And that's what Joe's doing but there's

783
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 2: only a few guys that been allowed in these facilities

784
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: that are doing it.

785
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: We've got to change. We've seriously got to give access

786
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: to these people. I understand the risks and people going, well,

787
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: why are you going to put someone that's done all

788
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: these things into the environment talking to young kids. I've

789
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: got to mate Nada Hampden. I'm not sure if you've

790
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: heard of it. A boxer, the professional boxer, the top

791
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: top Blap. He did three years in juvenile center and

792
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: man on the back of reading Jeff Fannick's book, decided, no,

793
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: this is not for me. That was that was, that

794
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: was his bible, and he said, I'm going to become

795
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: a professional boxer, and everyone sort of bullshit, you'll be back,

796
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: you'll be in the prison. He breake the cycle. You know,

797
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: you say ninety five percent or whatever it going to

798
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: end up in the adult prison. He actually broke that cycle.

799
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: And he's been doing talks like that and getting into

800
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: juvenile detention centers. And I can't stress enough how powerful

801
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: that would be. Like someone like Nada. I see him.

802
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: He's a hard bastard. You there before, and he was

803
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: there before. He can walk the walk, talk the talk

804
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: and people are going to listen. And yeah, people like

805
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: Nata Joe, yourself going in there. If Australi one eighty

806
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: goes in there and with all the right intentions in

807
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: the world and probably a damn sight more educated than

808
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: all of us put together, they're not going to listen.

809
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: Well, the common question was when I was there, from

810
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: these guys, yeah, what do you need? And they all said,

811
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 2: these boys, we need people who have lived our experience.

812
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: And that's eighty boys said that. And I remember when

813
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: I was there as a seventeen year old Costas who

814
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: came in, Antony Pullatour and Joane Olava he played for

815
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 2: Penrith at the time. They won the comp that year

816
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: and they were like heroes of ours yeah, and we're like,

817
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: it's awesome to see you. Yeah, but what you said

818
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: to us didn't spur us on because you don't know

819
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: what we're doing now, what we've gone from.

820
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: But someone that's been there, and yeah, that was a

821
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: that was a I slipped in or I was.

822
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: I went back to my cell and it was a

823
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 2: young bloke. They're reading his Bible and I go, I said,

824
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: this is what's going on here? But I got to

825
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: go and we had a chat. I said I was

826
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: in this cell mean, and his eyes lit up, Oh yeah,

827
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, man, And now I'm not here

828
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: as an inmate. I come to see you.

829
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: Well, you're showing a few, You're showing them that there

830
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: can be a future.

831
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: That's all we need.

832
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: And that's like with Joe Navy yourself, this is a

833
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: future that you could.

834
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: Have if you class us no chance to go back

835
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 2: in there, or then there's no chance for them either. Yeah,

836
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: Like if we've got the runs on the board, we've

837
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: proved that we we're decent people now and we've got

838
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: the you know, the heart to go back in there

839
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: and serve these guys. We've got to get him in there. Yeah,

840
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: because these guys are going to adults who are going

841
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 2: to commit more serious crimes and hurt more people and

842
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: a cycle is there?

843
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 1: Is there a resistance because yeah, it's the system. The system.

844
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: We don't need you guys coming back telling us how

845
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: to do it. What where do you find if they're

846
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: is a resistance, where do you find the resistance comes from?

847
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: Well, when I went to the juvenile facility, the resistance

848
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 2: was actually not there.

849
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: They're they're embracing it and they're desperate.

850
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the post code stuff, like you know, the

851
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 2: juveniles have actually segregated. Now before you're all together. Now

852
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: there's there's gang life. Now the teenagers getting ready for

853
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: prison life.

854
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: We'll see the ship that goes down in Sydney of

855
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: recent times and.

856
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: Sixteen year olds can have people. So the first crime

857
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: now is murder. Yeah, you don't work your way up.

858
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: It's kidnapped, kill people.

859
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: Now, well, it's across the well the Eastern States and

860
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: idea say, yeah, across in the western over in the

861
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: Western Australia as well. But you youth crime. We've got

862
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: to we've got to try something because what they've all

863
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: we're trying is not working.

864
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 2: And if we don't try to help them now, our

865
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: prisons is going to be filled for the next generation. Yeah,

866
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: and like it's out of control. Yeah, and Sydney is

867
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 2: a forty year old man, he's wasted half his life

868
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 2: and took someone's life. Like, it doesn't get any worse

869
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: it m If I've been able to turn it around,

870
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: you've got to get me in there.

871
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: Well, you've turned it around, and that's perceived as the

872
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: worst of the worst you're a convicted murder and I've

873
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: turned my life around with the jail system. I did

874
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: that Breaking Badness podcast series when I went in the

875
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center and the way that they're doing the

876
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: jailing there as distinct from the traditional system. So we're

877
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: moved from the juvenile centers. This is into the prison system.

878
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: Where and what they were doing. When I saw it,

879
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was really positive and it was a

880
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: way of reducing recidivism. But what I've got a sense

881
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: SAT jail had a different feel from every other jail

882
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: I've been in that there was a respect given. There

883
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: was respect given from the inmates to the staff, the

884
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: staff for giving the inmates respect, which is something I

885
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: hadn't hadn't encountered. I was speaking to a lot of

886
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: the inmates in there and the fact that they were

887
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: given opportunities to make them function better in society. What's

888
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: your take on that style of prison?

889
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there. I did two years there, Yeah, Macquarie,

890
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: and I was taken from liz Go to there, right,

891
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: so I contained in a cell for seven years and

892
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: then in open living dorm style and there was a

893
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: zero violence.

894
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: Tolerance and prisons at the prison and.

895
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: When we got off the truck, they greeted me as Anthony. Yeah,

896
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: I've never had that happen. But then as I've stayed

897
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: there for months and then over the year, they treated

898
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: you like human beings. Like I've seen the governor come

899
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 2: in one day, he raided the unit on Christmas and

900
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 2: he said, I know he don't like it, but we're

901
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 2: trying to treat you like animals. That's what we're trained

902
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: to do. I'm coming here as the governor to treat

903
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 2: you like human beans. And I've told my staff same way,

904
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: and I've never heard a governor say that ever. I thought, okay,

905
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: and he was actually treating us like human beans. And

906
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: then what happened. We reacted like human beans, and we

907
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: started to see amazing things. The boys, yeah, you know,

908
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: and get an education, working mindset started to change.

909
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: It works. No, I'm a big believer in, like coming

910
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: from the cops, where our way of dealing with crime,

911
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: and I'm talking from the police point of view. We're

912
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: arresting people after they've committed the crimes. But if you

913
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: can prevent it, it has to be a damp site,

914
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: damn sight better.

915
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: Everything should be about prevention. But as I said, like

916
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: before they lock us up and they forget that we

917
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: get out.

918
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 1: That's a very important point that a lot of people

919
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: think everyone goes that they should be in prison, and

920
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 1: when they're in prison, they should be breaking rocks and

921
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 1: eating bread and water to keep them alive. That's bullshit,

922
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: because they're going to be let out.

923
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: And angry, more volatile than ever been because they've just been.

924
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: I've spoken to too many people who have been in

925
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: the prison systems, the old the prison systems, and I'm

926
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: sure there's still some bad shit going down. Treats like

927
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: animals were going to come out like animals, And it's

928
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: common sense. You've been through it, you've stepped away. You're

929
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: looking at life differently now. So it's interesting getting your

930
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 1: your views on it, what you've been through and where

931
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: you're at now. How confident are you if there's a

932
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: setback in life, because we all know that there's going

933
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: to be setbacks different things. Have you got the tools

934
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: now to keep on the path that you're on?

935
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 2: Because I trained myself in custody. I made sure that

936
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: I did fourteen years sober. I didn't take drugs. I

937
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: didn't I made sure that whatever I faced, I faced

938
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: it sober. So I learned how to react like not

939
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: just react to something. I'd think about what I'm doing.

940
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 2: And for fourteen years I trained myself in that. And

941
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: then now that I've been out for nineteen months, therese

942
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 2: as things have come. But I can say no, I'm

943
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: confident in that I don't drink anymore, I don't take drugs,

944
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 2: and I have one hundred percent confidence in myself that

945
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: I have the ability now to make the right decision

946
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: because I do have the tools. And that's the key.

947
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: You've got mentors in life now, the people that you

948
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: look up to and respect and.

949
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: About at least three mentors in my life that older

950
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: gentleman that just speaking to my life hold me accountable,

951
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: that I'm very honest with and I do the same

952
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: for them, and they've walked alongside me for many years.

953
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: And that's crucial. You need to have someone that's older

954
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: than you, wiser than you, that you can go to

955
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: and that won't judge you for what you're doing, but

956
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: hold you accountable or just starting to unpack life with.

957
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: I think holding new accountable is important because if otherwise,

958
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: you can surround yourself with people that the group of

959
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: everything you do, check yourself. You need someone to call

960
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: bullshit on you if you get a job on the

961
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: ball the track.

962
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it?

963
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: You know?

964
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:08,959
Speaker 2: So the one thing I've learned is that the true

965
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: character of a man is not what he is, not

966
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: what he's done, is what he does after. And that's

967
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: where I always if it's what I do after, Yeah,

968
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 2: you know, and that's the key.

969
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: Well, it's a pretty poor life if there's no chance

970
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: of turning your life around. And yeah, criminal psychologists I

971
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: work a lot within the cops would often point out

972
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: to me just because someone's done a bad thing doesn't

973
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: make them a bad person, because I just had my

974
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: cop had on and gave fuck it, look look what

975
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: he's done. Well, oh, that that person mightn't be a

976
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: bad person just because they've done that. It might be

977
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: a thing that's happened before or after, but you judge

978
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: on the totality of it.

979
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: There's a reason for why someone got to that point. Yeah,

980
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: And I've learned that, And I was like that, I

981
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,479
Speaker 2: was so judgment on myself. Yeah, never gave anyone a chance,

982
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: not even myself. But there's a reason why. It doesn't

983
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: give you an excuse for what you've done, but you

984
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: can get an understanding of why you've done it and

985
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: then and then change so it doesn't happen again. Yeah,

986
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: and that's that's what's key for me.

987
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: You made it or it just came out in the

988
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: conversation before about thinking before you act. That's a pretty

989
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: important thing to do too. And I look back at

990
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: my life and sometimes if I just took a step

991
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: back and thought about what I'm going to do before

992
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: I did something, my life would have been a lot

993
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: easier and in different different circumstances.

994
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: And that's a tool that the key tool you need

995
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 2: to train. I had a short few so i'd snap

996
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: and think about after what I've.

997
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: Done after it's done, and look as a person that

998
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: might have snapped a couple of times myself, I've never

999
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: felt good after it. They like, even if I got

1000
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: on top of the person I'm snapping on or whatever,

1001
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: I walked away. Fuck Jesus, why did I do that?

1002
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: If it was as soon as you're reflected about it,

1003
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: he gave what a goose? Yeah, Now that is the

1004
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: key thing that I've trained in myself. Just be patient,

1005
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 2: don't react to something. It's respond response is different to reacting.

1006
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: Well. I learned something doing a philosophy course and it

1007
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: was about practical philosophy. And one of the things I

1008
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: took away from it you do it. There's lots of

1009
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: you get overloaded with bits and pieces. But we didn't

1010
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: exercise for a week. The purpose of the exercise was

1011
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: before you do something, stop and think what would the

1012
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: wise person do? In the lead up to that, we're

1013
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: discussing what is a wise person all that sort of stuff,

1014
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: but before you act or respond to something, what would

1015
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: a wise person do? And just check yourself on that.

1016
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: And we had to do that exercise for the week.

1017
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: I reckon I thought with less people in that one

1018
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: week I did in my whole life because I was

1019
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: stopping and thinking and what would a wise person do?

1020
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 1: And just little simple tips like that. I would imagine,

1021
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: I'm talking philosophy, but I would imagine a lot of

1022
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: what you get from your religion is that type of.

1023
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 2: That's what Jesus teaches. Don't do not give the you know,

1024
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: don't go to sleep angry, be patient, forgive. So if

1025
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 2: I'm patient with someone and process something before I respond

1026
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: to them, I'm not going to act out. So that's

1027
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 2: what Jesus did for me. That's what the Bible did

1028
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: for me. It taught me and gave me the tools

1029
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 2: to be patient too, to understand maybe there's something going

1030
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: on for that person, that's why they're acting that way,

1031
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: and don't be so irritable of stupid things, you know.

1032
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 2: So it took a long time for me to I

1033
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: suppose grow that muscle, I suppose to able to just

1034
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 2: stop and not react to people. And that's what that's

1035
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: what my faith does for me. It's it just it

1036
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 2: just dissolved my anger. Now. It taught me why I'm angry.

1037
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: It helped me forgive the people that did things to me.

1038
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: It helped me forgive myself what I've done, and and

1039
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: it's changed my entire life.

1040
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: You know, that's what it does for me. Well, it's yeah,

1041
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: it's a huge turnaround. And I'm impressed by how you've

1042
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: turned your turned your life around. Like there's pain pain

1043
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: in life, and you'll you'll cause enough pain, but yeah,

1044
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: steering your life in the in the right direction. For

1045
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 1: full full credit to you. How's your your your future looking, mate?

1046
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 2: The future is and I'm very grateful my future is bright.

1047
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 2: I've worked really hard to put myself in a position too,

1048
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 2: to be a better person, to change my life and

1049
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: my faith in Jesus. You know, He's restored all things

1050
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 2: to me.

1051
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: M hmm.

1052
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: It's hard to say that knowing that Eden's family is

1053
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 2: saying this, will hear this, you know. But I know

1054
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: every day that I'm not worthy of my second chance,

1055
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: and that's that spurs me on to make sure I'm

1056
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: intentional about everything that I do, and everything that I

1057
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 2: do now is it's not about myself, it's about others.

1058
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 2: And I don't take you for granted that I've been

1059
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: giving this second chance with life when one man hasn't.

1060
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: And you know, it's almost you almost feel guilty saying

1061
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: that the future is bright.

1062
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the fact that you can reflect and take

1063
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: it in that way and express it that way. I

1064
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: think the thing that you can do best to honor

1065
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 1: Bieden is live a good life now and his family.

1066
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 1: And that's the sense I got from Jessica speaking to her,

1067
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: like they would really not appreciate your just giving this

1068
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: lip service and not living the good life. So the

1069
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: best thing you could do for E and his family

1070
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: is lived the good life I would imagine.

1071
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: And but they live it for myself, it's living for others.

1072
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: That's the That's what Jesus teaches me, and I believe

1073
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 2: it wholeheartedly. And the more that I live for other

1074
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: people and see and walk alongside people, now I'm a

1075
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: mentor to others and an example which is incredible m hmm.

1076
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 2: And I get to see the fruit of people changing

1077
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: their life. And you know, even passed away and his

1078
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 2: life was tragically taken, but I think many are going

1079
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 2: to have going to be impacted positively because of this,

1080
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: and it can't take you can't bring him back. At

1081
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 2: least I can do good from what's happened, and that's

1082
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: my goal.

1083
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: Well, I'm wishing you all the best for the future

1084
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: and keep trying to change change people's lives because it's important.

1085
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: And I respect you and thank you for coming on

1086
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. It's not an easy subject that

1087
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about. You knew it was going to be

1088
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 1: difficult right from from the start, but you still agreed

1089
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: to come on. And full credit to you and all

1090
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: the best for the future.

1091
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 2: Having us on.

1092
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: Cheers, cheers,