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Speaker 1: Welcome to the mentor. I'm Mark Boris Dominic Gill. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the mentor.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Now, you're the founder of your co founder? I think,

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Speaker 1: are you a founder of co founder? You're a founder,

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Speaker 1: You're a founder of urban Core. Just give me like

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Speaker 1: half a minute. What's urban Core? So?

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Speaker 2: Urban Core is a construction company which I started nine

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Speaker 2: years ago with a view to change the culture of

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Speaker 2: construction to future proof our industry. I started because I

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Speaker 2: felt like there was probably a way to do construction

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Speaker 2: better than the traditional way. Before urban Core, I worked

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Speaker 2: for a builder for a very long time for ten years,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like the environment was sometimes a little

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Speaker 2: bit unwelcoming, and I wanted to create a company that

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Speaker 2: would be a little case study, maybe a success story

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Speaker 2: that you could have a more diverse workforce and a

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Speaker 2: more collaborative and transparent approach and still be successful. So

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Speaker 2: fast forward nine years. I've got fifty five employees and

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Speaker 2: I'm very proud to say I have fifty percent women

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Speaker 2: in my company at the moment and it's going well.

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Speaker 1: So does that mean help me out it? Because I

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Speaker 1: don't really know. If you're a builder, you're a builder,

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Speaker 1: you have a building license up resum. That's what it means.

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Speaker 2: I have lots of licenses.

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Speaker 1: But to become a builder, what's the process. You have

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Speaker 1: to become a carpenter first, or you're a plumba or

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Speaker 1: electrician work.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the ways. There's definitely one of the

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Speaker 2: things I'm very vocal about is the licensing system. It's

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Speaker 2: far from perfect, probably needs a lot of systemic changes,

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Speaker 2: in particular when it comes when it comes to you know,

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Speaker 2: working across states. Like you can build one thing in

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Speaker 2: one state and something different in another state, even though

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Speaker 2: you're the same person.

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Speaker 1: Can you do you take your New South Wales license

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Speaker 1: and building coinsland.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but for commercial work there's no licensing in New

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Speaker 2: South Wales at all. How do you mean there's no

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Speaker 2: license for commercial work in New South Wales. You don't

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Speaker 2: have to have a licens, you don't have to have

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Speaker 2: a line. So I can oust a building company. You can.

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Speaker 2: You can build a forty two story tower in the

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Speaker 2: CBD if you win that tender.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't, it did so,

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, you can have a builder's license.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you can have a builder's license. So look I

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Speaker 2: love that you asked that question because I was I

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Speaker 2: you know, I started as a I mean, my background

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Speaker 2: is project management, right, I was a project manager for

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Speaker 2: a very large company. I understand risk, I understand budget,

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Speaker 2: I understand contracts very well. But this actually wasn't enough

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Speaker 2: to get a license, And in fact, I had my

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Speaker 2: original builder's license rejected a couple of times because I

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Speaker 2: didn't have the background in the trade as an experience,

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Speaker 2: as an as experience. But some of that experience is

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Speaker 2: quite minimal, Like you can be a laborer on a

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Speaker 2: site for two years and you will tick the inexperienced

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Speaker 2: box and you might be able to get a license then,

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Speaker 2: even though you may not understand risk and contracts and

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Speaker 2: budgets and program all the things that make you a

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Speaker 2: successful business person. So my take on this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: there are people out there that have licenses that probably

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Speaker 2: shouldn't not because they're not good at the trade that

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Speaker 2: they know. But they may not be very good businessmen,

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Speaker 2: and they are business people, and they and they might

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Speaker 2: be the people that undercut the market. They might be

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Speaker 2: the people you know that sign those contracts that shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be signed with unfair a location of risks, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And there are people like me, you know, highly educated,

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Speaker 2: a lot of experience in managing you know, contracts and

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Speaker 2: risk who may not be able to get a license.

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Speaker 1: So I know that. I think my nephew has one.

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Speaker 1: But like I know, you can get university now and

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Speaker 1: get a degree in project management.

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Speaker 2: Or construction management or something like that, as it's.

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Speaker 1: A bachelor of something. Roight. Yeah, but then you generally

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Speaker 1: speak and become a I think his process has He's young,

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Speaker 1: but his processes become like a ultimately let's call it

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Speaker 1: a supervisor on a site. Yeah, correctly, but you're basically

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Speaker 1: managing the job. But he wouldn't. He's not a carpenter

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Speaker 1: or any of the trades. He's never done any of

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Speaker 1: the trades. It doesn't necessarily mean he can get a

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Speaker 1: builder's license either, because he hasn't done enough of the

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Speaker 1: experiential part of it.

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Speaker 2: Look not necessarily. I ended up getting one, you know,

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Speaker 2: I had I appealed twice. I had the CEO of

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Speaker 2: the previous company I worked for who wrote to Fair

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Speaker 2: Trading and said, if you're not giving Domini Gill license,

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Speaker 2: you know, then no one should have a license, and

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Speaker 2: that that got me through.

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Speaker 1: So when you so the core of what you do

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Speaker 1: in terms of being the builder but not being the

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Speaker 1: trades person. You mentioned contracts. I guess there's finance, there's planning.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned risk. In Australia, risk has become a big

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Speaker 1: issue more recently. We saw some of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: happened during the COVID period and we have sort of

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Speaker 1: buildings in all sorts of trouble. What does risk mean

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Speaker 1: If we're talking about financial risk, we're talking about something else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, there are different types of risks.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: We can talk about safety, safety, hazard, safety risk. That's

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Speaker 2: one thing definitely for me is contractual risk that I

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Speaker 2: refer to mainly because we're in an industry, so I'm

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Speaker 2: a head contractor and in fact I talk about that

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Speaker 2: as well. You know, I like to call myself a builder,

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Speaker 2: but everywhere on paper, I'm a contractor. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: defined to the developer or to the client or the principle,

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Speaker 2: I'm defined by the vehicle that I used to do

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Speaker 2: the work, not the fact that I actually create and

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Speaker 2: execute work. And then as a head contractor, I engage subcontractors,

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Speaker 2: which is also a language that you know, you can

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Speaker 2: object to because these people trades people, and they trade partners,

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Speaker 2: the delivery partners, but we call them subcontractors. And so

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Speaker 2: the industry has become incredibly contractual, and it's very important

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Speaker 2: to understand risk in in those contracts. So my again

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Speaker 2: very vocal about you know, fair location of risks. The

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Speaker 2: way tenders are structure. Generally, the principle of the developer

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Speaker 2: will come with their form of contract. They'll have plenty

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Speaker 2: of lawyers that have looked at that for many years

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Speaker 2: that have drafted in in the way that really stitches

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Speaker 2: up the builder. And sometimes the builder may agree to

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Speaker 2: those terms as long as they can push them down

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Speaker 2: the chain to the subcontractor, and then we end up

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Speaker 2: with contracts that are not really viable.

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Speaker 1: So it's just so, and our audience can understand this.

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Speaker 1: So the developer might own the land or and or

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Speaker 1: gets the funding from the bank to do the building,

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Speaker 1: but rarely unless it's someone like Murvak or one of

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Speaker 1: those sorts of organizations lend lease, et cetera, But rarely

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Speaker 1: does the developer build particularly jobs. So the builder then, sorry,

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Speaker 1: the developer, that's the one organizing all the dough and

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Speaker 1: that the one who can go bad a lot of

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Speaker 1: the times. The developer then sends out a enters on

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Speaker 1: a process core forate tenders, or might invite people like

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Speaker 1: yourself to tender on the on the project, or might

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Speaker 1: already just have already a business relationship with you, and

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Speaker 1: just said, I just I just like Dominic's work. I

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Speaker 1: want her to do all my work. But says to you, Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's the building, here's the design, this, this is what

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Speaker 1: I want built. Here's the approval council, prove whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: give me a price. You give them a price and

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Speaker 1: a timeline, and I guess you have an s curve,

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Speaker 1: you know, to sort of show when money is going

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Speaker 1: to be drawn down, because the job development needs to

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Speaker 1: know when you're going to be up for dough, so

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Speaker 1: they want to know when the cash calls are going

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Speaker 1: to be. Let's call it the drawdowns. Then you will

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Speaker 1: go out and find you're calling him subcontractors. But I

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Speaker 1: like the idea of calling them delivery agents. Are going

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Speaker 1: to deliver certain things dire, there's deliverables. They're going to hydraulics,

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Speaker 1: what electrical or electrical you know, all the fit out

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Speaker 1: a sort of stuff. So you go and do you

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Speaker 1: do you call forttenders for that or do you have

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Speaker 1: your own team legal?

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Speaker 2: I call pretenders as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just put it out of But do you

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Speaker 1: say you five there, you're plastering companies? Your company plasters

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Speaker 1: you five plasters I'm going to get I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give you the package. Or do you just put it

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Speaker 1: out into the ether somewhere? Do you? No? No?

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Speaker 2: I go to people I know. Generally, I'll have three

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Speaker 2: or four companies portrayed. A lot of them I've used

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Speaker 2: before I want to use again. Occasionally I'll throw in

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Speaker 2: someone's hat in the ring that I haven't used yet

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Speaker 2: who's been asking me to get on my books, and

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Speaker 2: then we'll give them a go maybe or we'll use it.

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Speaker 2: Depends what the job is again, depends what the risk is,

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Speaker 2: and depends, you know, what we're after. Like I tried

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Speaker 2: to find the right trades for the right projects. You know,

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Speaker 2: I want to just yeah.

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Speaker 1: But when you say risk on it, do you mean

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Speaker 1: when you say risk, is that risk for you as

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Speaker 1: a contractor to deliver to the developer the job that

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Speaker 1: you tended on or is the risk are you saying

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Speaker 1: you manage the risk relative for the developer.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So generally what happens is you there are three

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Speaker 2: categories of risk. One is design risk, so you know,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned you get a set of drawings and you're

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Speaker 2: going to price to build it. A lot of the

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Speaker 2: time the principle will push on you the design risks,

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Speaker 2: so that design that they give you may not be complete.

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Speaker 2: It might be fifty percent, it might be seventy percent complete,

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Speaker 2: so you still have thirty percent of design work that

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Speaker 2: need to be done. That might increase the overall cost

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Speaker 2: of the project, and that becomes your risk.

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Speaker 1: So they call that construction drawings.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, So you get tender drawings and then you

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Speaker 2: might have the responsibility to take those drawings from tender

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Speaker 2: to approve for construction, and sometimes that can be a

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Speaker 2: ten percent and twenty percent increasing costs. Sometimes it's the

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Speaker 2: other way around. You might find some good ways to

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Speaker 2: you know, value etioneer, or there might be things that

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Speaker 2: make it easier. The other big risk that is often

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Speaker 2: pushed onto the builder and we always fight back on

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Speaker 2: is latent conditions. So you might actually be working on

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Speaker 2: a site that already has a building there part of

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Speaker 2: the building is being kept, or you might be doing

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Speaker 2: a fit out in a tower, and there's you know,

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Speaker 2: things you're dealing with that you may not be able

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Speaker 2: to see at the time of tender. And then you

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Speaker 2: get onto the site, so it's a fit out, you

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Speaker 2: pull down the ceiling and you realize things above the

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Speaker 2: ceiling aren't at all what you expected them to be,

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Speaker 2: and that becomes your risk because it's a latent condition

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Speaker 2: if you have accepted to take the risk on that.

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Speaker 2: So obviously these are you know, some of the examples

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Speaker 2: where we try and push back. But then you know,

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Speaker 2: principles can play the card of well, I've got to

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Speaker 2: build a ready to sign on the dot A line

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Speaker 2: here they've accepted the contract as is. We don't want

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Speaker 2: any departures. And then you know, you've got to look

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Speaker 2: at how much how much money have you got in

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Speaker 2: the job? Is there enough margin to cover all those things?

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Speaker 2: So and then also you need to try as much

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Speaker 2: as you can. Well you need to try. I don't

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Speaker 2: like to do it, but a lot of builders will try.

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Speaker 2: And then push that down to the trades. You know,

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Speaker 2: can you like the electricians, can you finish the design

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Speaker 2: the electrical services design and own whatever the come of

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Speaker 2: that design is and still deliver the job for that price,

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Speaker 2: you know. So these are the type of things that

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Speaker 2: we're trying and look forward to make it more fair,

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Speaker 2: like I believe, you know there are there are sometimes

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Speaker 2: where it's absolutely warranted. Like I'm the builder, I'm the expert.

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Speaker 2: I should take the risk on certain things. Now, when

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Speaker 2: a client purchases an asset, it's their asset. I don't

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Speaker 2: think I should underwrite that asset. You know, if there

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Speaker 2: is a best loss in the ceiling or there's contamination

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Speaker 2: in the ground, I don't think that should be my problem.

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Speaker 2: It's not. It's not my site, you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: my asset. So some of those things are hard to navigate.

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Speaker 2: And of course occasionally, you know there's a tender you're

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Speaker 2: hungry because it's very lumpy that what we do.

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Speaker 1: So obviously it's project based, a lot of jobs at once.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of jobs at once, a lot of

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Speaker 2: jobs finish altogether suddenly, or like okay, I've got two

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Speaker 2: teams ready, I've got this tender where you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not the lowest price, but if I drop a little bit,

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Speaker 2: I could win it because relationship. But then you take

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Speaker 2: a slightly bigger risk and then that might end up

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Speaker 2: really badly for you.

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Speaker 1: You might just help us out here on the importance

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Speaker 1: of keeping your team together. So let's say, on the

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Speaker 1: exemple just you just raised, you might have two jobs

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Speaker 1: on the go. They're both going to finish at the

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Speaker 1: same time. Let's say you've got you know, two teams

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Speaker 1: of all the trades on each job. Then they're all

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Speaker 1: going to finish around about the same time. And then

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Speaker 1: another tender comes up from another developer who you've already

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Speaker 1: doing work for, and you think to yourself, if I

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Speaker 1: don't win this job, I'm going to well, maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: put another way. How important is it for you to

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Speaker 1: win their job in order to keep your team together?

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Speaker 1: And why is it so important to keep your team busy? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: your team of contractors, your subcontractors, your delivery Mtical dens partners.

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Speaker 1: Why is that important?

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Speaker 2: Tell the audience, Look, it is important because you know,

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Speaker 2: I have some trade contractors who like the turnover of

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Speaker 2: their business eighty percent comes from urban core, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that means I'm paying their mortgages, feeding their kids

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Speaker 2: and their workers, and paying their people, you know, So

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Speaker 2: that matters to me. You know, if people rely on

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Speaker 2: the continuity of my work for the continuity of their business.

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Speaker 2: Of course I care what happens. That's quite rare. Most

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Speaker 2: trade contractors will work for more than one head contractor.

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Speaker 2: So if I'm a little bit quiet, they might be

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Speaker 2: able to go and get work from another builder, or

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Speaker 2: they might be able to sit tight for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Do you worry about that work for another building? I

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Speaker 1: mean you concern they do.

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Speaker 2: I have to accept it. Yeah, it happens.

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Speaker 1: What's the risk of that to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a risk of tender. So for example, when

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Speaker 2: they tender for me, and I know that they're giving

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Speaker 2: their price, which is a really good price to their

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Speaker 2: other builder, I know that that's a price I need

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Speaker 2: to go in on at that trade because for that trade,

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Speaker 2: because obviously that price exists in the market and everyone's

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Speaker 2: going to use it, you know. But I have a

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Speaker 2: lot of trades that price for me only you know,

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Speaker 2: and or you know might give different prices to different

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Speaker 2: builders depending on who they would like to help them win.

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Speaker 2: But then of course there's my fee, my own fee,

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Speaker 2: as you know, my preliminaries and my staff and my team,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, which also counts in the balance and of

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Speaker 2: course the margin that I apply. So it's always, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's always a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Of a do you worry if if if they go

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Speaker 1: to another builder that you might not get them back again,

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Speaker 1: and particularly if they're very good at what they do

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Speaker 1: in terms of both price and quality.

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Speaker 2: Well, lots of the trade tell you what the Generally

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Speaker 2: what happens is when they come and work for me,

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Speaker 2: they want to work for me again. I look after

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Speaker 2: my trades very well. I pay them on time, I

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Speaker 2: respect them. I keep talking a lot about the nobility

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Speaker 2: of construction, how important the work is that we do,

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Speaker 2: and I think they feel very very valued. And what

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Speaker 2: I'm finding is, rather than not wanting to come back

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Speaker 2: to me, is they don't want to go back to

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Speaker 2: the other builders they were working for. You know, we

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Speaker 2: have a saying at Urban Core. You might record during

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Speaker 2: during COVID we were talking a lot about, you know,

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Speaker 2: thanking the teachers every day and thanking the nurses every day. Well,

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Speaker 2: at Urban Core we say thank construction worker every day.

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Speaker 2: And actually I've got a fridge magnet to give you

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Speaker 2: thank you, And that's because that's because I'm trying, like

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Speaker 2: my life's mission is to try and change the perception

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Speaker 2: of construction. You know, I want people to choose construction

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Speaker 2: as a career, to realize that it's viable. You've spoken

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Speaker 2: about that recently in an interview on two GB, and

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Speaker 2: that really resonated with me because that's what I spend

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Speaker 2: my life doing. You know, I want to change that

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Speaker 2: perception so that more young people join the industry and

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Speaker 2: that we can have a more sustainable industry, more diverse industry,

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Speaker 2: because people don't realize, you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: money to be made. What we do is really tangible,

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Speaker 2: is really rewarding, and also we enable lives. You know,

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Speaker 2: you and I right now we're sitting in a room.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how often you worry about the slab

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Speaker 2: falling on your head or the rio in the lab

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Speaker 2: that we're you know, standing on. We're not heart surgeons,

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Speaker 2: and I get that a lot. People will say, you

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Speaker 2: know what about medicine and law, that's what we want

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Speaker 2: the kids to do. We're not heart surgeons, granted, but

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Speaker 2: we are actually a lot more than that. You know,

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Speaker 2: the heart surgeons they can't do their work on less

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Speaker 2: than in the hospital, and these hospitals built by us

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Speaker 2: so I feel like this is a really important point

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Speaker 2: to make around the perception of the industry.

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Speaker 1: I think you hurt me talking to ben Fordham or

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Speaker 1: toog with them. I think construction is is a great industry,

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Speaker 1: and I wish more kids and parents would actually talk

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Speaker 1: with the kids into it. I definitely would got grandsons

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Speaker 1: and granddaughters just born, but I would definitely be encouraging

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Speaker 1: them to if they said that that's something they're interested,

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Speaker 1: I would definitely be encouraging them to do that sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff. Equally, I'd say, if you want to become

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Speaker 1: a doctor or a lawyer or accountant or whatever, I'd

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Speaker 1: equally say that too. But but I definitely wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: thinking ones better than the other. If we could just

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Speaker 1: go back, because the point I questioned you for about

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Speaker 1: making sure you look after however you do it. You

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Speaker 1: explain how you look after your workers, your partners by

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Speaker 1: thinking of construction worker every day, and you do that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff at Urban Core. But it's also about competing.

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Speaker 1: That's partly because you're competing with a maybe even a

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Speaker 1: diminishing pool of contractors because we're not getting enough here,

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Speaker 1: and a straight from what I'm hearing anyway, and therefore

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Speaker 1: you've got to add off of something extra, not just

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Speaker 1: be prepared to pay the price that they're quoting or

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Speaker 1: be able to continue to give them more work, but

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Speaker 1: you're also building up a program whereby you're building a

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Speaker 1: brand around urban COREP. Maybe would you mind explain to

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Speaker 1: me what you think urban Core's brand values are?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Look, we're definitely a purpose driven business.

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Speaker 2: You know, we do want to build, and we want

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Speaker 2: to deliver on time and on budget and high quality.

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Speaker 2: And that will be what every single builder tells you

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Speaker 2: if they're a developer, that's yes, Well, I mean they're not.

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Speaker 2: Don't just build for developers. Obviously, we build for lots

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Speaker 2: of commercial entities like your DEXes and Charterhall and they're

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Speaker 2: not developers or such. Others refers a bit more to

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Speaker 2: RESI work in my world anyway. So principles, Yeah, principles

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Speaker 2: the owners.

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Speaker 1: So but that's for the developer. What about your brand

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Speaker 1: relative to your subtractors?

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Speaker 2: How long have you got? So? Look, I'm I'm all

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Speaker 2: about you know, purpose driven, as I mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 2: values driven. We don't want to We're not just here

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Speaker 2: to build and execute. You know, the fulfilled the minimum

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Speaker 2: requirements under a contract. You know, we're here to execute

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Speaker 2: someone's dream in someone's space, something they've imagined, something that

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Speaker 2: they want to execute the way we tackle things at

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Speaker 2: Urban Quarries. Obviously, we offer this diverse workforce. You know,

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Speaker 2: we believe that we should be a reflection of the

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Speaker 2: public we serve. So that's the first thing that is

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Speaker 2: a very strong selling point for us to tell our

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Speaker 2: clients who are become more and more female. Anyway, because

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Speaker 2: there are fifty percent women in the world, there's fifty

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Speaker 2: percent women in the workforce, so a lot of our

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Speaker 2: clients are female. They like to to relate to us

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Speaker 2: and be able to see themselves in what we do.

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Speaker 2: That makes us more generally, more approachable, more transparent. We really,

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Speaker 2: we genuinely see the benefits of diversity in the business,

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Speaker 2: and not just upstream to the kind but also downstream

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Speaker 2: to the subcontractors. The subcontractors that we have are incredibly respectful.

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Speaker 2: They believe the same values. Because what's really interesting, Mark is,

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Speaker 2: you know, we talk a lot about construction being a

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Speaker 2: boys club and being you know, all heavy, ugly, dirty, bullying, harassment,

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Speaker 2: all of those things. The reason women don't join construction

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Speaker 2: is the exact same reason many many men don't join construction. Okay,

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Speaker 2: construction really just needs to we really need to change

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Speaker 2: the image and the reputation of the construction industry, not

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Speaker 2: just for the women, but for men as well. And

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Speaker 2: once you have a more diverse workforce, something magic happens.

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Speaker 2: You create psychological safety, okay, and psychological safety is what drives.

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Speaker 1: People to be more productive the men on site.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, on site as well, absolutely, you know when the

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Speaker 2: side office is filled, you know, with three men three women. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: what happens is all my trades whenever they have a

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Speaker 2: female apprentice or a female worker, they happen to come

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Speaker 2: to my sites, which I love.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The other day I saw a female still fixer. It's

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Speaker 2: quite rare. You know, a lot of females are more

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Speaker 2: like electricians or painters, are cleaners. And they say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you have to go to the open core site, you know,

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Speaker 2: because there's all these women in the side office and

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Speaker 2: all these women on the team, and the guys like

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Speaker 2: it as well, you know, they like it because they

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Speaker 2: feel safe. And what happens when you have a diversity

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Speaker 2: of identity, so people who are different by identity, like

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Speaker 2: you're a man, I'm a woman. You're old, I'm young,

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Speaker 2: Just kidding, I'm all too. You know, you've got age,

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Speaker 2: you've got education, background, you've got you know, religion, sexual orientation, everything.

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Speaker 2: What happens if you're in a room and everyone looks

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Speaker 2: different when the first person speaks, the second person feels

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Speaker 2: comfort disagreeing or having a difference of opinion. There's not

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Speaker 2: that sort of tendency to go for group think where

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Speaker 2: you go hang on. You and I were both middle

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Speaker 2: aged white men. If you think a my instinct to

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Speaker 2: fit in is that I should probably agree with you.

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Speaker 2: And so when I asked, what do I think I'm

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Speaker 2: going to go well to fit in this group? Sounds

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Speaker 2: like I need to think like what the first guy said.

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Speaker 2: So in a room where everyone looks the same, so

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Speaker 2: no diversity of identity, you're going to have someone says

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Speaker 2: let's go plan A, and everyone go, oh yeah, plan A, Okay,

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Speaker 2: plan A, plan A. When you have a room when

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Speaker 2: everyone looks different diversity of identity, you get diversity of cognition.

433
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 2: The first person will say let's go plan A, and

434
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 2: the second person will say, well, I'm a completely different person.

435
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: With a completely different view background and looks anyway, I'm

436
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,479
Speaker 2: going to go with B. Then the third person might go,

437
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,199
Speaker 2: I'm going to go with P, and then green and

438
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 2: then frog. And then we become way more creative in

439
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: a group where we don't all look the same. And

440
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 2: when you become more creative, you have a better debate,

441
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: you have better decision making, which is the most important,

442
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: and collaboration, creativity, innovation, et cetera. So for me, that

443
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: social innovation, which is my one point of difference at

444
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: urban Core, This fifty percent women has had this really

445
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: sort of virtuous effect, you know, to the rest of

446
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: the teams, Like my subbies want to work for me,

447
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: my clients want to rehire me, and those things is

448
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 2: you know, proof is in the pudding. I've been here

449
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: nine years. I keep growing every year. I've had a

450
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 2: bigger year over the previous year, and I have you know,

451
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 2: many people knocking on my door wanting a job with

452
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: urban Core. I think those things are working.

453
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 1: You know, is there any risk of inefficiency as a

454
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: result of having I mean, I know you're making a

455
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: crazy example, but id a id b id peri idea, green,

456
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: idea frog? Is there any risk of having it like

457
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: a talk fest or inefficiency as a result of that,

458
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 1: And if so, how do you manage that?

459
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean there is always an inherent risk,

460
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 2: and I think you know that's the cost of innovation, right.

461
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: Innovation is an investment, and that's something I acknowledge, and

462
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: I think part of the reason why the construction industry

463
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: is quite slow and innovating is because they don't invest

464
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: enough in innovation. And I know why because the margins

465
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 2: are too slim. You know, you need to be able

466
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: to afford trial and error. You need to be able

467
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 2: to try something and it doesn't work. In my view,

468
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: the upside of having that really productive conversation is far

469
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: outweighs the risk of just going, let's do it the

470
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: old way, Let's do it the way we've always done it.

471
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Let's follow that one single idea. You know, I think

472
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 2: that carries a lot more risk than having the original debate.

473
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: Another thing that's quite important is you've obviously got to

474
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: have the skill to make the decision, and you need

475
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: to have people on the team who are team players,

476
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: and the team players are the people who will a

477
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: rally to the decision once it's made. Even if that

478
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 2: wasn't their preference. So being you know, that's eight players

479
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 2: for you, you know, trying to find someone who's able

480
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: to say I think we should go be But then

481
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: when we make the decision that it's A, now I'm

482
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: going to support A and I'm going to work as

483
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:04,239
Speaker 2: hard as I can.

484
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: How do you build that culture? That's a cultural thing.

485
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: You do You have to sort of sit in on

486
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: the meeting is what did you find it difficult? Not difficult?

487
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: Did you find that you had to sit in on

488
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: the meetings to build that thought process initially and now

489
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: it just probably flows? But did you have to do

490
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: that yourself? Do you have to push that a little bit?

491
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? I push it every day. I mean I read

492
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: books like I'm obsessed with books with leadership. I love,

493
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: you know, Jim Collins. I was just reading other moment.

494
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: His latest will be two point zero. He talks about people,

495
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: He talks about building, you know, a team of like

496
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: a players. I read you know, Patrick lang Cherney and

497
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: the five Dysfunctions of a team. And I have a

498
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: national meeting every fortnight. I had one yesterday every second Monday,

499
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: where I passed that knowledge to the team. You know,

500
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: I'm always there going, oh, this is the book I've

501
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: been reading, and this is the exercises that we're going

502
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 2: to do. And I try to also really cultivate empathy.

503
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: Some of the things we've been doing at Urban Core

504
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: is we do a raw swap so for example, because

505
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 2: what happens is you have people in the office contract administrators,

506
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: project managers. They're working like dogs. They're trying to make deals,

507
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: they're trying to get you know, variations approved, they're trying

508
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: to get trades on board. And then you have site

509
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: site is the guys who supervise and you know, do

510
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: the safety et cetera. And we have some days where

511
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: we ask the site manager or the foreman to take

512
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: the meeting minutes of the client meeting, and then we'll

513
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: have the contract administrator to do five inductions, you know,

514
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: so they can really understand that actually, these guys aren't

515
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 2: just sitting in the office, you know, drinking coffees and

516
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: these other guys are just twiddling their thumbs in the

517
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 2: side office. Everyone is actually working really hard and doing

518
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: a job. Because inducting five people, you know, when they

519
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: show up and they don't have their white card and

520
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: they don't speak English and they need a translator, and

521
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's actually a really hard thing to do.

522
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: And taking mid and meeting minutes of a client meeting

523
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: super important. These documents are pulled up all the time

524
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: whenever there's a dispute what happened in that meeting, what

525
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: was minuted. So just trying to make people understand, you

526
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: know that where the what everybody else in the team

527
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: is doing and being able to then you know, have

528
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: that creativity I suppose in their own work. You know,

529
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: when they write a contract and a scope of works

530
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: for a subby, are they thinking, oh, hang on, that's

531
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: going to be really annoying for my site manager that

532
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: I gave this part of scope to that trade. When

533
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 2: they're working in that area, maybe I could, you know whatever,

534
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: I'm making things up. But it's very important that they

535
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: have that understanding what everybody else is doing in the team.

536
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: If we're finding most of the females working in the

537
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: business like are they in store in like internal like admin,

538
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: administrating like contracts, et cetera, Or you're getting an even

539
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: balance between that and on site like on site project

540
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: manager on female su advisors.

541
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: So I've got definitely where I'm lacking women is in

542
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: site supervision. It's very difficult to get a site manager

543
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: or a for foreman, you know, person really that should

544
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: be called as as a female. Obviously, I would love that.

545
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: I do have a very good ratio of on the

546
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: project management side, project manager and contract administrators, and I

547
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: have a fifty percent ratio in leadership as well the SLT.

548
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: But when it comes to support roles, I have more women.

549
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: So the way I have my fifty percent is I

550
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 2: have fifty to fifty in project admin, more men in

551
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 2: sight supervision, fifty to fifty in leadership, and then more

552
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: women in support roles. So and actually I can tell

553
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: you that story. But you know, I'm quite proud of

554
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: my fifty percent diversity, right. I've worked very very hard

555
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 2: for that. I have recruited many women from different industries.

556
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of time with them. I've trained them,

557
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: a lot of my people, I've spent time with them.

558
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: You know, it didn't happen overnight. And we do it

559
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: because we believe in it. You know, this is this

560
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: is my life's mission to show that it works. So

561
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 2: I'm doing that. But then then because I like, you know,

562
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: I like to do brag about it and it's a

563
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: global first, and I had, you know, a little bit

564
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: of media coverage about that, and what was disappointing for

565
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: me is there was an article about how urban Core,

566
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, achieved fifty percent diversity, and yet they're really

567
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: focused on my gender pay gap because of course the

568
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: site supervisors, they earn more than the support roles in

569
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: the business.

570
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: So but that's an industry thing.

571
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it is an industry thing. But what I

572
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 2: mean is, you know, I have this amazing achievement, I think,

573
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: you know, which is very special, and he's proving you know,

574
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: he's making a point that I've been trying to make

575
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: for years, and that became immediately overshadowed by the new

576
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: trendy metric of gender pay gap, you know, And that

577
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: was a bit disappointing for me. And it's not because.

578
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: They're blokes as supervisors, because.

579
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: No, it's just a supervisor earn more. Yeah, that's just

580
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: that's just what it's like. But but you know, I

581
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: looked into this a bit further and I actually found

582
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: a loophole and it turns out that if I increase

583
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: my salary by three point two million, I can close

584
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: the gender pay gap at Urban Core. Now that's a

585
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: drick get that.

586
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: No I didn't, but three two million sounds like a

587
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: lot of money.

588
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: I know, that's what I mean. But that was the point.

589
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: You know, you're trying to close the gender pegap. You've

590
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: just because I'm a woman, right so if I pay myself,

591
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: but therefore it doesn't make sense. No, therefore it doesn't

592
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: make sense. It's not a good metric, is what I'm saying.

593
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: You've got to pay at the end of the day,

594
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: You've got to pay market anyway. So if a site

595
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: supervisor gets more than someone inside the office administering or

596
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: contract so that's what it is.

597
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: That's what it is. But of course the site supervisor

598
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: earned more than an office manager or an accounts person,

599
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: et cetera.

600
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: So that's why, generally speaking, if I could just maybe

601
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: get your views on your industry, generally construction and this

602
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: whole difficult conversation that seems to be being had around

603
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: the country about productivity and one of the areas because

604
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: construction industries are is probably one of our biggest industries

605
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: in Australia. If more than likely it's either one or two.

606
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: I think it's second biggest employer and third biggest contributor

607
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 2: to the GDP.

608
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, so they're from not surprise. So but

609
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: it's right now. It's apart from gender issues, it's under

610
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: resource in terms of new recruits. Recruit is really difficult,

611
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: and usually it starts off that at the side. Part

612
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: usually starts off with an apprentice. What's the deal? Why

613
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: why are people joining up? Why can't plumbers go and

614
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: get themselves an apprentice or electricians going to get themselves?

615
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: What's the issue with this?

616
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: Well, look, like like I was saying earlier, I think

617
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: the construction really suffers from a reputation problem. It suffers

618
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: from an image problem. You know, people will people look

619
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: at construction and they think it's heavy, it's dirty, it's ugly,

620
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: it's bullying, it's harassment, it's not diverse, it's not inclusive. Yeah,

621
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: and c I mean, obviously it gives it gives a

622
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: terrible example. But I want to unpack this for a second.

623
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: You know, I think what I love about construction and

624
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: what people often don't realize is there is a lack

625
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: of diversity, but there's definitely not a lack of inclusivity.

626
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: We are actually the most inclusive industry on the planet

627
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: because there's zero barrier to entry. Zero. You can be

628
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: a homeless person and get a job in construction. You

629
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: can be an ex prisoner and get a job in construction.

630
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: There's not many industries that give people a second chance

631
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: at life. I think that's really beautiful, and we forget that.

632
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: The problem is because we welcome this really vulnerable layer

633
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: of society, we also have you know, the people who raff,

634
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: the people who bully, the people who harass, etc. So

635
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: we then suffer from this from this image problem, and

636
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: people don't want to join up. But if we change

637
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: that perception, like I said before, if we try and

638
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: increase the make people understand that what we do is

639
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: really noble, that we save people's lives, that we protect

640
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: people's lives, that we enable people's lives. If we try

641
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: and were able to remind people that the work we

642
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: do is so important. When I walk on a site

643
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: and I see a trade person and I say, excuse me,

644
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: what is this or what are you doing? They often

645
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: will say, oh, I'm just a carpet layer, like I'm

646
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: you know, I'm no one, or I'm just the steel fixer.

647
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: What would I know? And I always try and remind them, like,

648
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: don't call yourself just this. What you do is so

649
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: important these people. You know that the carpet you're walking on,

650
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: this is someone's dream, someone's living room, someone's classroom, whatever

651
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: it may be, you know, and just reminding them how

652
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: important it is. The other thing is people don't realize

653
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: how much money you can make in construction, and I

654
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: think that's a real shame because we get paid really well.

655
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: You know, we can get paid really well. Obviously it's

656
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: based on hard work, results and performance as well, but

657
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: the potential is there A crane driver, really experienced crane

658
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: driver can earn up to two hundred k a year.

659
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: Is this the guy or girl who's seeing in the

660
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: top of one of those things it goes about the building?

661
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I got freaked me out of things out? Yeah, how

662
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: did they get up there?

663
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: That's really there's a ladder. I climb to crane myself.

664
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: They climbup a ladder. Ven if it's a windy day,

665
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: I have think got some sort of harness.

666
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 2: On the way up there with it depends depends.

667
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: They can Sometimes some of these things in the city,

668
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: they're like like skyscrape scrapers, as well.

669
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: I've got a crane on one of my sides and

670
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: I climbed up that crane on in November last year.

671
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, it.

672
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: Is the ladder on the inside of the things on

673
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: the inside.

674
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah you can. You know, every ten meters you have

675
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: a platform, so the highest fall is ten meters, which

676
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: is still really high.

677
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: And they set up there all day.

678
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they have no that breaks. Yeah, and they

679
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: have a relief person sometimes or they just take a

680
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: break care.

681
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: But a special type of people, like individuals.

682
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: I think so.

683
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I think they're pretty smart, but are a special style

684
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: of character. Like who's happy to sit in the side

685
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: of the glass box? Yeah, pretty much on their own.

686
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah they're getting they're talking through something.

687
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: Like yeah, of course, yeah, it's a big deal. It

688
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: is a big deal. Yeah, it is a big deal.

689
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: But also you know, it pays quite well and so

690
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: nice view from up there, and you know you feel

691
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: you're contributing and making a difference. And that's what's beauty.

692
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: It's so tangible. You know, the day you you crane

693
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: up the tree because you topped out, you know, that's

694
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: a good day I think for the crane driver included.

695
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: That's the day that the top of the buildings reached.

696
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last lab yeah yeah yeah, put a planted

697
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: up the top of the tree. Generally, yeah something so.

698
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: But going back to apprentices, why why are we having

699
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: so much difficulty getting these apart from the image? Yeah,

700
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: a kid saying or a parent saying, the kids outside

701
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: the image they're saying, listen become a blah blah you know,

702
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: or is it ignorants?

703
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah it is. Well I think, you know,

704
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 2: my you know, I have a not for profit outside

705
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: of urban Core where we go and talk in schools.

706
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 2: We go and speak to girls and boys about careers

707
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: in construction because it's my life's mission to change the

708
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: culture of construction, increase the number of women. What I'm

709
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: finding difficult if I get in front of the kids,

710
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: they're all like, wow, my god, we didn't all these

711
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: jobs existed. We didn't know we can make so much money,

712
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 2: We didn't know how much fun it was. We love it,

713
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: you know. And I start every presentation with who is

714
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: considering a career in construction? Generally I get no hands

715
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: go up. Sometimes a couple of mercy hands on this pool.

716
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: She you know, she came here to talk to us

717
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: we might pretend we're interested. Then I do the presentation

718
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: for like thirty minutes, and then at the end of

719
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: the at the end of the presentation, I ask again

720
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: the same question, and I'll get sometimes thirty five percent

721
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: thirty thirty five percent of hands go up. But what

722
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: has the difficulty is generally getting to that classroom, calling

723
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: a career advisors in a school, private schools, public schools,

724
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: and saying, hey, I want to talk about construction. Generally,

725
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: I don't that don't get a lot of interest. People

726
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: are like, well, We're had a lawyer come and speak

727
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: to us last week, we have a surgeon coming to

728
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 2: us next week, we have you know, Macquarie Bank coming

729
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: to speak to us, and we're not really sure we

730
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: want our kids to do construction. So that's the barrier.

731
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: There's a lack of there's a there's a need for

732
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: educating the career advisors. They need to understand what are

733
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: the opportunities that exist in construction. Then it is the

734
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: parents as well. You know, I do a lot of

735
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: career showcases. You know, I go to school, I set

736
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: up a table, I said, do you want to work

737
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: in construction? And the kids come after school with their parents,

738
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 2: and the parents will say, oh, keep walking, keep walking,

739
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: you know, let's go to gap year in London, you know.

740
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there going, guys, why don't you want

741
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: to hear about construction? So there is definitely a very

742
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: big important piece around educating the parents and the career advisors.

743
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: But I have some good news I want to make

744
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,919
Speaker 2: this is this is a new release material. I haven't

745
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: really spoken about this a lot yet, but I'm gonna

746
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: talk about AI for a second, because what is happening

747
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: with AI. You're I'm sure you're well across. You know,

748
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: the rate of adoption of that new technology, it's unprecedented.

749
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's using TOADBT, Everyone's using AI. It's faster

750
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: than the rate of adoption of the Internet or the PC.

751
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: All these industries are getting disrupted. All this white collar

752
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: jobs that the parents have been pushing the kids to

753
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: go for and go to unifour are being disrupted. And

754
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: guess what's left. What is one industry that is historically

755
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: very slow at adopting to technology and is also being

756
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: slow at adopting AI construction? Right, So suddenly, what I'm

757
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: finding really interesting is we live in a world where

758
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 2: we are more and more disconnected. You know, we have

759
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: AI agents doing jobs for us. We're working from home, isolated,

760
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: and construction is this one industry that might well end

761
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 2: up being the last truly human industry where you need

762
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: physical work. You need to do things, You do things,

763
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: and you need to be there. Local presence. Physical work

764
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: is so prevalent in construction and it makes your job safe.

765
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: You know, suddenly we're thinking, remember all these kids that

766
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: we're going to stand for doing computer science. You know,

767
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: look at Atlastian. Atlastian made two hundred people redundant two

768
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 2: weeks ago because AI. That hasn't happened in construction. We're

769
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: not seeing that. I think we should embrace AI. I

770
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: embrace sed open core. I've got all my gbts doing

771
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: everything I do as much as I can with it.

772
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 2: I use it to supplement and augment what I do.

773
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 2: But it's not replacing. It's not replacing anything or anyone.

774
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: It's we're still quite a few many years away from saying, hey,

775
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 2: Tad DiPT, can you well this metal? Can you pour some.

776
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: Compte and have to build a robot first?

777
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: You're going to have to build a robot exactly, and.

778
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: Some people are starting to try it. But I agree.

779
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like right now, you know, kids could go

780
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: off and get an apprenticeship, but it's because the apprenticeship

781
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: is doesn't pay much. I mean, is there some government?

782
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: Are you happy with the governments the way governments address

783
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: these things?

784
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: Not happy at all? I'm not happy at all. I

785
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: think the government could be doing way, way more. The

786
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 2: first thing the government could do better is advertising for construction.

787
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: You know, what I see is a lot of advertisements

788
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 2: for the Defense Department, for the Navy. You know you've

789
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: seen those ads. You know, leave a dream worth living for,

790
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: or you know someone in a uniform cradling a baby

791
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: and a fire, and they make it all so attractive.

792
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, the Navy had the high rate

793
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: of intake ever based on all these money they spend

794
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: on advertising for the Navy. The reality of working for

795
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: the Navy is sometimes seven months on a ship, you know,

796
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: in the hall of a ship. And yet if you're

797
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: going to look for a career in construction, say you're

798
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: a young person thinking I'm thinking about construction, You're going

799
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: to google it and go, oh, I wonder what would

800
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: happen if I join construction. What do they see. They

801
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: see highest rates of insolvencies ever. They see public projects

802
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: with you know, three years over time and three times

803
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 2: over budget, and tax payer money is down the drain,

804
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: and someone will go, well, maybe I'll go and create

805
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: all the baby in the fire and join the navy instead,

806
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: you know, And that's such a shame, like the government

807
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: could be doing more to advertise this industry that we

808
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: all rely on. I mean, it's insane that we're looking

809
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: down on the one industry that everybody relies on, you know,

810
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: it's unbelievable. And then the other thing they could do,

811
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: and this is me, This is very personal, and I

812
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: don't know if you have any people in politics listening

813
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: to this podcast, but someone like me who is trying

814
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: so hard, you know, to change the perception and have

815
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: increased the number of women in a male dominated industry,

816
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: which is something the government keeps talking about, you know,

817
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: something they care about. Why can't I get you know,

818
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, payroll tax exemption or some real incentive

819
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: to keep doing what I do because right now, all

820
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 2: this training of women who come in from horizontal, horizontal industries,

821
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: and the time I take to recruit and I generally

822
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: pay more my recruiters for women over men to make

823
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 2: sure they find the right woman for the job, et cetera.

824
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: That's all coming out of my own pocket. And yet

825
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: they have on their agenda that they want people like

826
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: me to do what I'm doing. But where are they

827
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: incentivizing me?

828
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's encouragement but no incentive.

829
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. It's a big guest, but

830
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: I feel like it should be rewarded, you know, and

831
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: then more people will do it.

832
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: Where my main businesses at the moment. It's funny, I've

833
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: been seeing a lot of female It's it's in the

834
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: city in chiefully, but I send a lot of female

835
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: trades people. More recently, I've noticed noticed a lot, like

836
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: a lot as opposed to just seeing females stand there

837
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: with those go stop stop goho signs which you often

838
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: see outside construction sites. But I actually quite a few,

839
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: And I was only thinking about it the other day.

840
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: I thought, I think to myself, how did you to

841
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: the particular individual, how did you decide to become my

842
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: donal trade they're doing? But how did you decide to

843
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: do that? Become a trades person like who wasn't in

844
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: your family that said to you become an electrician or

845
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: a plumber. Are there some trades that you don't You

846
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: very rarely see women do it, like, for example, plumbing,

847
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: because I always sort of a plumbing. Plumbing be a

848
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: pretty bad I reckon that'd be a tough trade to do,

849
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: because I can imagine the old dude plumber be saying, okay, Mark,

850
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: you climb under that house there and toilet and there's

851
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: rats and snakes and whatever in there, and you go

852
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: on and plug that like and the gaps is big.

853
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, but why should men do that more than women?

854
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: You know, it's a bad both, right, I mean, but I.

855
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: Can see why woman or a man, thank you, I'm

856
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: not doing that? Is because is it to something Sai?

857
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: Construction is a bit hard?

858
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look of course it is. It is. You know,

859
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: there's I mean challenging. Look, with the advancements of safety,

860
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: there are no real tasks that are outside of the

861
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: physical ability of anyone.

862
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: You know you.

863
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: I could be a plumber, I could be a concrete

864
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: I could be a still fixer. You know, we we

865
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 2: don't let people carry one hundred killer beams on their

866
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: own anymore. Ever, I mean, unless you know, you're out

867
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: regionally somewhere with a one man band and they have

868
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: no systems in place. But the reality is there are

869
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: no tasks outside of the physical ability. But that's a

870
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: myth that needs to be debunked and people don't know that.

871
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: And a lot of the girls, when I presented the

872
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: girls school schools and I say, why aren't you thinking

873
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: about career in construction, not being strong enough comes up.

874
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not strong enough, and that's the first

875
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: thing I say. Well, you know, we're here. We can't

876
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: have people break their backs from carrying and you're not

877
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: going to do that. I'm not going to do that.

878
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: We're not going to put you in a confined space

879
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: if you don't fit in there. And you know, so

880
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: people need to understand that whilst it's a slow adoption

881
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 2: of technology, systems have improved, you know, and they are

882
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: getting a lot more sophisticated, and we are trying to

883
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: reduce the number of incidents. You know, safety is a

884
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 2: very big deal in construction. And I can have plenty

885
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: of things to say about safety as well, because but anyway,

886
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: so we talked about a lot of things for a

887
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: very long time, yeah, so.

888
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: Where okay, don but where do you see Where would

889
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: you like to see urban core in I'm not talking financially,

890
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: but where would you like to see urban core? And

891
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: you've already got fifty to fifty urban core in three

892
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: years time. I'm not to them from an economics point

893
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: of view. I'm talking about as a representation of what

894
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: can happen in this industry.

895
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's three years is tomorrow right, I'm going

896
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: to snap my finger is going to be three years?

897
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 2: I think for me, longevity of the business is really

898
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: thing that's important to me. So I didn't build a

899
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: business to sell it and you know, be done with it.

900
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: I wanted to last not three, not ten, but fifty years.

901
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: You know.

902
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: I love seeing companies that celebrate one hundred years. I

903
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: think this is you know, really really great innings and

904
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: I'd love to be part of that. What's really important

905
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: to me is to maintain that fifty percent diversity and

906
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 2: maybe you know, hovering over fifty percent because you know

907
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: it can hover a little bit. And I still want

908
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: to have some growth like in revenue, in turnover, because

909
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: I want to get to a critical size where I

910
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: have really made a dent you know, like say fifty

911
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: percent diversity. If I was it was me and my husband,

912
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: that's fifty percent. You know, that's not really proving anything, right,

913
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: I feel like to be able to really inspire and

914
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: show Look, guys, urban Core is doing it. They're turning

915
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: over over one hundred million, and they've got fifty percent women,

916
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: and they've got repeat work, and they've got great credentials

917
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: and everyone's coming back to them, and all these people

918
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: are knocking on their door to work there. I want

919
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: to inspire others to do the same, you know, I

920
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 2: want to change this industry. It's not about me. I mean,

921
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: I would just want to lead the way and show

922
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: a good example and show that it works, because as

923
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: far as I can see, everyone talks about it, but

924
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: nobody's doing it.

925
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 1: Has anyone else adopting.

926
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: This, No, not that I know of. I mean a

927
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: lot of people talk about diversity and increasing the number

928
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: of women in construction, and look, it's getting better, don't

929
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: get me wrong. And there are great initiatives out there,

930
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: and especially the bigger players, the tier ones, you know,

931
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: they have the developed the culture standard recently. They have

932
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: lots of good initiatives. But you know, ninety eight percent

933
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: of businesses in construction are small businesses, you know, and

934
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: we need the small businesses to come on board as well.

935
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: You know, we need everyone to agree that this works,

936
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: that this, you know, is good for everybody. It's not

937
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: about ticking boxes, you know. I hate when people say, oh,

938
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: diversity and inclusion tick the box. It's it should be

939
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: a business priority. It's a strategic move, you know. For me,

940
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 2: it's better productivity, better happiness. I mean, we haven't even

941
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: started on mental health, but my people have psychological safety.

942
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: They are better in their heads than if they had

943
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 2: less diversity. That means maybe fewer days mental health days,

944
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: and less burnout and more enjoyment, and that creates productivity,

945
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: you know. You know what I mean that the trade

946
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: off is incalculable.

947
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: But do you think therefore there needs to be some

948
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: sort of task force formed by the government sort of

949
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: to address this, as opposed to governments talking about it

950
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: or having it in there sort of overall agenda, yeah,

951
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: and maybe having a few minuteses appointed into various portfolios

952
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: and talking about it. Do you think there needs to

953
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: be some sort of task force that oversees this in the.

954
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: Industry, look and there is one, and I think unfortunately

955
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 2: they're about to wrap it up because they had the

956
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: CC which is the Cultural Industry Task Force for construction

957
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: or construction industry tasks, and they're the ones who ruled

958
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 2: out that culture standard and that worked well. They took

959
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: five projects and they had you know, a minimum of women.

960
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: They had five days a week government projects, yes, two

961
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: in Victoria, three New South Wales, a mix of vertical

962
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: and horizontal projects and that was an overwhelming success. But

963
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: then it's done. So they're just like, well, now we

964
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: have the proof that this is good, but yet to

965
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 2: see you know how they pushing others to do it.

966
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 2: Because I remember putting my hand up and saying, oh,

967
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: I want to be part of these. You know, this

968
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 2: is all I stand for. But it was all only

969
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: big jobs, you know, it was all only tier ones

970
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: and I feel like the big construction Yeah, like you're

971
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: Lendley's John Holland you know whoever they are, So yeah,

972
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: multiplex and be six what packe, et cetera. So they

973
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: get involved and obviously they have a lot better balance sheet,

974
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 2: they have a lot more margin that they can really

975
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: you know, expand onto those experiments. Like I said, innovation.

976
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: It's about trial and error and spending money. But the

977
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 2: problem is, like I said, ninety percent businesses are small businesses.

978
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: You know, what are we doing for them?

979
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: You know?

980
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm a voice for the small businesses.

981
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: So I think what you're saying, I think we're saying.

982
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: I want to give that. It hasn't that that initiative

983
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: good initiative hasn't led down into the smaller.

984
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: It's not that I constructed businesses, not that I can see,

985
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: except it's got a really shiny, glossy report that says, hey,

986
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: we did this and it worked.

987
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: A final question to you, do you do you feel

988
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: like sometimes you're out there on your own beating the drum.

989
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes you get frustrated.

990
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: At what point do you say stuff this?

991
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: Well, look, I did feel a little bit. I do

992
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: feel a bit like that sometimes. And then I don't know.

993
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 2: I got this invitation to speak on the Mirk Boris podcast,

994
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: and I thought, this is the start of change. It's

995
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: coming because people like you.

996
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I've sent in another industry. But you need

997
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: to get reassurance every now and then, and you need

998
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: to get that little injection of adrenaline. I'm talking in

999
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 1: a business. It's a little injection of adrenaline to make

1000
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: sort of convince you that you are on the right

1001
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 1: track and hopefully you I'm hoping that this will help

1002
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: you out today. But I mean I when I said

1003
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: to Ben Fordham on that that on that day we

1004
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: weren't do about females and business, but I was talking

1005
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: about apprenticeships and career is in construction. Generally, some of

1006
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: the wealthiest people I know, outside of people who inherit

1007
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: the wealth some when I say, probably the majority of

1008
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: the wealthiest people I know have made the money out

1009
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: of building fantastic.

1010
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Well that's a great message.

1011
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: And to go to the southern, southern, Southern, get the

1012
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: shire and all of these ten fifteen, twenty million dollars houses.

1013
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: Admittedly there might be you know, they've been in the

1014
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: business for twenty thirty years, but that equally applies to

1015
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: any other industry. By the way, but I don't see

1016
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: too many surgeons out there.

1017
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, true, you know.

1018
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: And all lawyers. Lawyer sounds like a great idea, but

1019
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: it very rarely does is to make you a lot

1020
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: of money unless you're like even you become a judge

1021
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: then you don't make a lot of money either. In fact,

1022
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: judge they are underpaid. So but the construction, the plumbers

1023
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: who build up a team, the electricians to build up

1024
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: a team in the plaster, the plasters, the tilers like recently,

1025
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: I had an excise admittedly was during COVID, but of

1026
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: building a building up, in building a small building up

1027
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: and morder in New South Wales. Tylers were charging me

1028
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: then one hundred and sixty bucks an hour a tyler.

1029
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, what the hell?

1030
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: Mike Countant only charges undred and sixty bucks an hour

1031
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: and he's been around the many years, so this is

1032
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: good man.

1033
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: Yes, there is good money.

1034
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: I was prepared to pay because no choice and.

1035
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: Mark once you reach you know, eight hours your time

1036
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,959
Speaker 2: and a half, and on Saturday and Sunday your double time.

1037
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: And you know, my electricians, my trades make more money

1038
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: than me, like some of them, not not all of them,

1039
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: but some of them, you know, And it's very possible

1040
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 2: and very likely. You need a little bit of business acumen.

1041
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: I think that's the only thing that sometimes I feel is,

1042
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: you know, they give builders licenses to people who probably

1043
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 2: aren't so good at running a business, and that is

1044
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: actually hurting the industry. But those who can you have

1045
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, a little bit of that

1046
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: money minded or money making gift. You know, they can

1047
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: do really well.

1048
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: And there's no shortage of work.

1049
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: There's no short no, no, no, oh my god.

1050
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

1051
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 2: In fact, there is shortage of workers. You know, we

1052
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: need more. That's why they get paid so well, because

1053
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 2: it's so hard to find the trades people that you need.

1054
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: And they know, especially right now with the housing crisis

1055
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: and trying to densify these areas and really push for

1056
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: I can't remember how many homes they want to build.

1057
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 2: A one point two million, you know, it's.

1058
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: Five years, so it's like, yeah, a couple hundred thousand

1059
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: a year, and they're way off the target.

1060
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: And the shortfall is more than three hundred thousand workers

1061
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 2: I think in the next three years. You know, how

1062
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: we what are we doing about that?

1063
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: I don't understand. That just doesn't turn the light on

1064
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: for parents and all those who can influence their kids

1065
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: a lot and say well, hang on, there's a huge

1066
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 1: demand there and as a result that they are always

1067
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: going to have a job. Money. You should always have

1068
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: a job, assuming your competent.

1069
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: Job security, job security.

1070
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: And that's sort of as a parent, that's the most

1071
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: important thing job security, Like you know what this thing me.

1072
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: But there are millions of lawyers graduates, kids graduating from

1073
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: law degrees left right center, and they're all struggling to

1074
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: get a job.

1075
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 2: Oh and AI. AI is big time over to paralegal.

1076
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: I think that probably will have another role in some

1077
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: type of role, but it would be more like supervising

1078
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: in the AI, because a I can can do some

1079
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: weird things. But but look right now, you're right, there's

1080
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: one industry that is not disrupted by AI is the

1081
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: physical industry. Any physical industry which you know you're not

1082
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: going to get AI do your plumbing for you. And anyway,

1083
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they get some sort of little lum body

1084
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: out of the time, but that's a long way off

1085
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: and the adoption of that process will be a long

1086
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: long way off. But so I think parents should be

1087
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: thinking about this. I think parents, if you've got a daughter,

1088
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: you should be thinking about this. I've got a I've

1089
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: got a granddaughter and her mother she's only through so

1090
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: but her mother is a project manager on site fantastic

1091
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: and she's construction engineer. So so there's a perfect example

1092
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: and I wonder whether, if you're listening to me right now,

1093
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: daughter in law, whether you would encourage my granddaughter, your

1094
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: daughter to one day become a trade or just get

1095
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: involved in the construction industry generally, because I know she's

1096
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: had a pretty good experience with it, so fantastic. It's

1097
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: a great business. And I really appreciate you putting yourself

1098
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: out there, and I absolutely hope that you achieve for

1099
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: urban Core what you set out to achieve. And you're

1100
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: gonna have a lot of bumps in the road, don't

1101
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: worry about it.

1102
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 2: Any bumps in the road.

1103
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: That doesn't matter. I never give up though there's no

1104
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: point giving up. Just keep going.

1105
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much. Nice talking to you. Cheers,