WEBVTT - The fight for Dan Duggan - Part 1: From 'Top Gun' to wanted man

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<v Speaker 1>The day Dan was arrested was the hardest day I

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<v Speaker 1>thought in my lifetime. Eva First, I was off to

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<v Speaker 1>work and Dan was dropping the kids at school. Dan

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<v Speaker 1>had a cake in his hand, was giving it to

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<v Speaker 1>the kids, and off he dropped them to school. He

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<v Speaker 1>went to wool worst because he was going to cook

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<v Speaker 1>dinner in the evening, grabbed a few things and that's

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<v Speaker 1>when he was arrested.

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<v Speaker 2>In October twenty twenty two, officers from the Australian Federal

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<v Speaker 2>Police arrested Daniel Duggan in Orange in Regional New South Wales.

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<v Speaker 2>His wife Safareen was waiting to meet him for coffee.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the irony is that Dan is always on time.

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<v Speaker 1>His family comes first. So I'd waited.

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<v Speaker 3>Ten minutes for him to call me, and I'd sent.

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<v Speaker 1>Numerous messages on his phone. Then it got into maybe

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<v Speaker 1>half an hour. I was so concerned. I was just

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<v Speaker 1>about to call the police to say I'm really worried

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<v Speaker 1>about my husband.

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<v Speaker 3>Something might have happened to him.

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<v Speaker 4>And then he called me. I said, what are you

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<v Speaker 4>talking about? I don't understand what do you mean.

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<v Speaker 3>You've been arrested, like for what what could you possibly

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<v Speaker 3>have been arrested?

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<v Speaker 5>For you know, this is a man.

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<v Speaker 3>That's never had never had a parking fine. I've had

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<v Speaker 3>more parking fines than he has.

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<v Speaker 2>To American prosecutors. Dugan is a former US Marine pilot

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<v Speaker 2>accused of breaking arms trafficking laws by helping train Chinese

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<v Speaker 2>military pilots in South Africa more than a decade ago,

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<v Speaker 2>something he denies to Safreene. This is her husband and

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<v Speaker 2>the man she built a family with.

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<v Speaker 3>A friend introduced me to him, and I thought as

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<v Speaker 3>soon as I turned around and met him, my heart

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<v Speaker 3>skipped a beat and I was just interested in talking

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<v Speaker 3>to this beautiful, happy, smiley, friendly, honest man.

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<v Speaker 4>It was beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a couple in love and starting a life together,

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<v Speaker 1>and we did all the beautiful romance things together.

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<v Speaker 4>We had children. We knew.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew instantly when I met Dan that this was

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<v Speaker 1>something that I wanted to continue because there was a

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<v Speaker 1>connection there that we still have, we still hold on

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<v Speaker 1>tight to that. We then made a family on and

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<v Speaker 1>that's the most heartbreaking thing for me is that all

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<v Speaker 1>of this it's ripped our family apart, and we're a strong,

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<v Speaker 1>loving family, and it's depth stating.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 2>Saffring Duggan on her husband's fight for freedom from jail,

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<v Speaker 2>and journalist and member of the Free Dan Duggan campaign

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<v Speaker 2>Michael sainsbrief on how an Australian pilot who worked in

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<v Speaker 2>China has become the target of US prosecution. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>April twenty seven and this is part one of a

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<v Speaker 2>two part episode. Michael, could you start off by telling

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<v Speaker 2>us who is Daniel Duggan and how did he end

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<v Speaker 2>up in Tasmania.

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<v Speaker 6>Dan is born in Boston. He is the youngest of

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<v Speaker 6>nine kids. His old man was a pilot. He wanted

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<v Speaker 6>to become a pilot. He ended up in the US Marines.

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<v Speaker 6>He actually served in the First off War, although you

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<v Speaker 6>didn't see combat, is training people and had an.

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<v Speaker 4>Honorable discharge from the Marines. He moved to Australia.

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<v Speaker 6>In two thousand and five and set up a business

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<v Speaker 6>in Tasmania called Top nine Australia, which offered joy flights

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<v Speaker 6>in military style aircraft.

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<v Speaker 5>This is Dan Duggett, chief pilot and Managing director of

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<v Speaker 5>Top Gone Australia.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm a former US Marine Harrier jumpjet pilot and weapons

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<v Speaker 6>and tactics instructor. Eventually he became an Australian citizen as

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<v Speaker 6>Australia Day in twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>So from there, how did he end up in a

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<v Speaker 2>flying school in South Africa?

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<v Speaker 6>ILike everybody who has been in the services, you have

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<v Speaker 6>to have a career after that. And in the early

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<v Speaker 6>early twenty tens, an old aviation context reached out from

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<v Speaker 6>South Africa and said there was work at a quite

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<v Speaker 6>prestigious test pilot school in South Africa called Tapasa.

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<v Speaker 4>So Dan started.

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<v Speaker 6>Talking to them and ended up going to do some

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<v Speaker 6>work for them in twenty eleven and twenty twelve. That

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<v Speaker 6>school is kind of sits at the crossroads of elite

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<v Speaker 6>pilot training, and it was at the time of China's

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<v Speaker 6>aviation burn. Fact was that the commercial airlines there were

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<v Speaker 6>just doubling, tripling, quadriveling flights. There's three b airlines and

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<v Speaker 6>they were really struggling to get enough people to fly

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<v Speaker 6>the plane, so they were sending people all around the

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<v Speaker 6>world to get trained. Dan did through short since there

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<v Speaker 6>as just as a contractor, you know, he wasn't in management.

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<v Speaker 6>There were a lot of other very senior foreign military

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<v Speaker 6>people who were both running the school and working there

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<v Speaker 6>as sort of lead pilots. Too Fasta told him that

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<v Speaker 6>he was training civilian test pilots.

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<v Speaker 2>So what is it the US prosecutors and now saying

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<v Speaker 2>happened in South Africa? What was he doing?

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<v Speaker 6>They say that that true, Too Faster Dan was part

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<v Speaker 6>of a conspiracy to provide defense services to China without

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<v Speaker 6>US authorization. Now, what the training school says they were

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<v Speaker 6>doing is that they were just training Savilian pilots, and

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<v Speaker 6>they're saying that they were military.

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<v Speaker 4>Dan's denying it and defining seals Den.

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<v Speaker 6>It's worth noting that none of these other people have

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<v Speaker 6>ever been charged with him.

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<v Speaker 4>Just in terms of what they said he was doing.

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<v Speaker 6>They alleged that he the training was connected to aircraft

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<v Speaker 6>carrier take offs and landings at the time when China

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<v Speaker 6>was just starting to develop aircraft carriers. The indictment also

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<v Speaker 6>alleges that Dan evaluated Chinese pilot trainees and was involved

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<v Speaker 6>in broader work that was designed to improve China's naval

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<v Speaker 6>aviation capability. All of this stuff standardized, and the training

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<v Speaker 6>that he was.

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<v Speaker 4>Providing really wasn't really military training. It was just very

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<v Speaker 4>typical training that you were training any pilot for.

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<v Speaker 2>Despite all of that, though, Michael, even by Dan's own account,

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<v Speaker 2>he is a former marine being asked to teach Chinese pilots.

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<v Speaker 2>So is there any reason that Dan perhaps should have

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<v Speaker 2>had some concerns or alarm bells ringing? Or does it

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<v Speaker 2>sound completely reasonable to you?

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<v Speaker 6>Sounds simpletely reasonable to me, particularly when you look at

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<v Speaker 6>the people he employed him. I mean Teeth Hartley, who

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<v Speaker 6>was running this thing, was a senior, very senior RAF officers.

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<v Speaker 6>There were other senior Australian and British former military people.

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<v Speaker 6>They're people who are much more senior than Dan. So

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<v Speaker 6>for some reason he's been picked out. And possibly the

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<v Speaker 6>reason he's been picked out is because he changed his

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<v Speaker 6>citizenship and he was an easy.

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<v Speaker 2>Target after the break the move to China and who

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<v Speaker 2>has sue beIN the businessman who stole US military secrets

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Daniel Duggan. He left South Africa in twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>He was there less than a year. What happened next?

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<v Speaker 6>At that point he moved to move to China and

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<v Speaker 6>set up a consulting business for the aviation sector.

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<v Speaker 4>When he was planning to move to China, Dan.

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<v Speaker 6>Says that he was contacted by Azeo, and he eventually

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<v Speaker 6>met with Azo and also representatives from NCIS, part of

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<v Speaker 6>the US military, who knew that he was planning to move.

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<v Speaker 4>They knew what had happened in South Africa.

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<v Speaker 6>They had no stage during those conversations did they tell

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<v Speaker 6>him that the work he'd been doing was unlawful.

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<v Speaker 4>At no stage did they tell him not to go

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<v Speaker 4>to China.

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<v Speaker 6>As I said, the civil aviation market in China was booming.

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<v Speaker 6>Those lots of opportunities, there are a lot of There

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<v Speaker 6>are a lot of Australians and Westerners in China at

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<v Speaker 6>that stage still are, but particularly at that point, it

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<v Speaker 6>was you know, it was just posed to impis. Everything

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<v Speaker 6>was less restrictive than it has become.

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<v Speaker 7>The Chinese economic miracle has grabbed global attention for a

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<v Speaker 7>while now. The country is in its growth targets for

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<v Speaker 7>fourteen out of the last fifteen years, and the one

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<v Speaker 7>time they missed it it was fit point one.

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<v Speaker 4>And he was working in aviation consulting.

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<v Speaker 6>He also ended up helping run the Flying Kangarooba in Beijing,

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<v Speaker 6>and his wife was working in the fashion business insieth

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<v Speaker 6>also photographers, so it was it was a good time

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<v Speaker 6>to be in China to be honest, and there was

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<v Speaker 6>lots of work around and it was pretty non controversial.

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<v Speaker 2>And Michael then enters this Chinese aviation businessman, soon being

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<v Speaker 2>how does he fit into all of this?

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<v Speaker 6>So Sue Bin was a guy who his business was

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<v Speaker 6>finding Westerners to help in the aviation business in China.

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<v Speaker 6>He had been involved with connecting Dan with the South

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<v Speaker 6>African Flying School. As Dan had said, you know, his

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<v Speaker 6>western name was Stephen, said, everyone knew Steven. Stephen was

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<v Speaker 6>kind of who you went to, who knew where all

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<v Speaker 6>work was. He was somebody that was very well known

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<v Speaker 6>to everybody and was just you know, he was just

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<v Speaker 6>an agent to help people get work.

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<v Speaker 8>In July twenty fourteen, Sue was arrested in Canada and

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<v Speaker 8>was later extradated to the US in twenty sixteen, where

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<v Speaker 8>fifty one year old Sue finally there.

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<v Speaker 6>He was arrested in Canada and pladed guilty to subsyber

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<v Speaker 6>related charges.

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<v Speaker 8>He admitted that from October of two thousand and eight

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<v Speaker 8>to March of twenty fourteen, he conspired with two hackers

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<v Speaker 8>to gain unauthorized access to protected computer networks in the

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<v Speaker 8>United States, including the ones belonging to the showing company

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<v Speaker 8>California to obtain sensitive military information.

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<v Speaker 6>None of this has got anything to do with Dan.

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<v Speaker 6>It's been put in the indictment. Dan hasn't been charged

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<v Speaker 6>with anything that he did in China. He's been charged

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<v Speaker 6>with training military pilots, which he didn't think he was,

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<v Speaker 6>and with transpiring to lawns of money, which is just

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<v Speaker 6>the money he was paid for doing that training. There's

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<v Speaker 6>a whole lot of other stuff in the indictment which

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<v Speaker 6>is pages and pages long, that relates to China and

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<v Speaker 6>things he was doing in China and somebody else in

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<v Speaker 6>China who has since gone to jail. None of the

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<v Speaker 6>stuff he did in China he's been charged with. So

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<v Speaker 6>all of that stuff is great white noise. It's irrelevant

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<v Speaker 6>to what Dan's been charged with. And he denies, absolutely denies,

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<v Speaker 6>all the allegations he has been charged with.

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<v Speaker 2>So Dougan is secretly indicted in twenty sixteen via a

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<v Speaker 2>grand jury. By his account, he has no idea that

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<v Speaker 2>this sealed US indictment was waiting for him when he

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<v Speaker 2>returned to Australia. Is that all right?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 6>So Dan has been told by Azio that he'll be

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<v Speaker 6>fine to get his pilot Sizense back when he comes back,

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<v Speaker 6>So he comes back. He's kind of cooling his heels

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<v Speaker 6>in Orange, where his wife was staying with her father

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<v Speaker 6>and their kids. Is basically house husbanding a bit, waiting

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<v Speaker 6>for his pilot Slizes to come through and gets picked

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<v Speaker 6>up in the car park at Woolley's after dropping the

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<v Speaker 6>Kiosko SCW one day.

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<v Speaker 1>The fifty four year old father of six was arrested

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<v Speaker 1>at his home near Orange in October and now faces

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<v Speaker 1>extradition an indictment.

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<v Speaker 5>The request of the United States, and has since been

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<v Speaker 5>detained in a maximum security prison. US authorities alleged he

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<v Speaker 5>was paid about one hundred thousand dollars to train Chinese

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<v Speaker 5>military pilots. Mister Dugan denies the allegations against him, which

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<v Speaker 5>also in word conspiracy and money laundry suffering.

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<v Speaker 2>Could you tell us more about what this battle has

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<v Speaker 2>done to you personally and to the family.

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<v Speaker 1>This is incredibly hard for our family. Our children have

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<v Speaker 1>always been at the heart of everything we do, and

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<v Speaker 1>to watch them suffer is to watch any child suffer

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<v Speaker 1>as a parent, but they're the ones I feel that

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<v Speaker 1>really suffer the most.

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<v Speaker 3>The amount of birthdays.

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<v Speaker 1>Starting new schools, winning awards, watching your children grow up

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<v Speaker 1>in a timeline you never get back again.

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<v Speaker 3>I get so worked up.

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<v Speaker 4>I feel ill. I can't breathe.

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<v Speaker 1>My head feels like it's in a vice, and I

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<v Speaker 1>have to recenter. Now, normally, when I think you say that,

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<v Speaker 1>you sort of recenter, it's one of one of a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of things. I have to recenter, like continually. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm on repeat and.

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<v Speaker 4>Enough is enough. I'm exhausted.

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<v Speaker 2>And what about Dan? How's he doing?

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<v Speaker 1>He holds it together for his family. I see him

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<v Speaker 1>hold it together with the kids. But I get to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to my husband and he sometimes he's really not together.

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<v Speaker 4>He's very worried.

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<v Speaker 1>He's deeply sad, and the unknown is still there. There's

0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.080
<v Speaker 1>only so much, you know, anyone can take.

0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.480
<v Speaker 7>And I'm very, very, very worried about him.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you still have hope or is it starting to fade.

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:04.200
<v Speaker 1>We've faced years now of hardship and we will keep going.

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.200
<v Speaker 3>Of course, you have hope because when you.

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<v Speaker 1>Love someone, and we still believe in Dan's innocence that

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:15.200
<v Speaker 1>you have to have hope.

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<v Speaker 3>You hang on to hope.

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<v Speaker 4>It's what drives you through.

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<v Speaker 2>This was part one of a two part episode. In

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<v Speaker 2>the next episode, we look at how Dan Duggan's case

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<v Speaker 2>became an extradition battle, what he could face in the

0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.120
<v Speaker 2>United States, why his supporters believe he's been caught in

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<v Speaker 2>the geopolitical contest between Washington and Beijing.

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<v Speaker 6>If this en happened to Dan, it can happen to

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of other Australians. If we put Australians in

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<v Speaker 6>jeopardy and are prepared to hand them across to a

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<v Speaker 6>foreign legals system for things that they.

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<v Speaker 4>Did a long time ago that weren't crimes.

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<v Speaker 6>Here, you know, it opens a floodgate for foreign governments

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<v Speaker 6>to be able to reach into our legal system and

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<v Speaker 6>interfere with it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's in your feed now,