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Speaker 1: Before we begin. This podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

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Speaker 1: This is a production by The Australian and our subscribers

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Speaker 1: Here episodes first and get full access to photos, video,

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Speaker 1: news stories and features plus all Australia's best journalism twenty

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Speaker 1: four to seven. Join us at Gangstersghost dot com dot

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Speaker 1: a US.

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Speaker 2: That's it. So my understanding it was a I may

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Speaker 2: be wrong. Was around here?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Okay?

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Speaker 4: So if he died right here, where's the ambush points

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Speaker 4: are clearly these two side streets and possibly coming out

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Speaker 4: behind him from that lane that's the only lane.

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Speaker 3: Then you'd reckon. They'd want to be closer because he

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Speaker 3: would hear them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fanguns.

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Speaker 3: Yes, thirty eight three, So the three of them, so

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Speaker 3: the vera close dn't The first two were in the back,

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Speaker 3: dropped in and then they came and pumped another sixty Louis.

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Speaker 2: Park Chapel Street, Marrickville at the T junction with Illawarra Road.

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Speaker 2: Here in this now desirable inner western Sydney suburb is

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Speaker 2: the once notorious Henson Park Hotel on one corner and

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Speaker 2: a former mixed business in an old terrace on the other.

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Speaker 2: In the spring of nineteen seventy four. The pub was

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Speaker 2: a favorite watering hole for crooks, and the shop was

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Speaker 2: a Greek delicatessen run by the Poulos family. I'm here

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Speaker 2: almost fifty years to the day with my podcast co

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Speaker 2: pilot Kelly Slater, Reagan, and my dearest friend, the cartoon

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Speaker 2: and true crime officionado John Shakespeare, who passed away recently

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Speaker 2: from cancer. Johnny was so passionate about this podcast that

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Speaker 2: he desperately wanted to join us in Marrickville when we

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Speaker 2: tried to recreate Reagan's violent and bloody murder on that

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Speaker 2: distant sunday, right and one was right next to the head,

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Speaker 2: right three inches from the head.

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Speaker 5: Tom a day.

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Speaker 2: Was it September, so it would have been dusk, this

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Speaker 2: would have been here, or this would have been here.

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Speaker 2: That was a metal shop before it became a cafe.

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Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if there wasn't a cockatoo or a

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Speaker 2: lookout at the pub.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: You can look straight out onto the delicatessen.

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Speaker 4: But how did I communicate that then to the shooters mobiles?

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Speaker 2: No pages. Someone had to have had an eye on

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Speaker 2: him absolute on that quiet Sunday evening, September twenty two,

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Speaker 2: as the sun sat close to six thirty pm, Sydney's

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Speaker 2: most dangerous gangster, Stuart John Reagan, was supposedly dropped off

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Speaker 2: nearby by his girlfriend Helen Scott Huey for a casual

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Speaker 2: meeting with a person or persons unknown. Reagan sauntered down

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Speaker 2: Chapel Street, with its handful of terrace houses and their

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Speaker 2: small gardens on one side and light industrial factories on

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Speaker 2: the other. He may have seen the flickering blue of

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Speaker 2: televisions in some of the front rooms of those houses.

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Speaker 2: Any sounds of bonamie from the Henson Park Hotel would

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Speaker 2: have faded the further he moved down the street towards

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Speaker 2: the Marrickville Public School on Cholder Lane. Suddenly the darkening

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Speaker 2: street was lit up with bursts of gunfire.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a big, horrible set up that appears. No

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Speaker 2: buller proofessed, no weapons, no bodyguard.

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Speaker 3: No hypervigilant person, hypervigilant it so normally it'd be normally

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Speaker 3: travel with a minimum of two bodyguards, best and.

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Speaker 4: Gun And we've been reading anecdotes of people actively hunting

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Speaker 4: him to kill him, yes, and not being able to

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Speaker 4: do it.

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Speaker 2: It was that on the ball. Within ten to twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes of arriving in Marrickville, Reagan was faced down on

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Speaker 2: the road, struck by eight bullets from the guns of

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Speaker 2: at least three shooters. Once he was down, someone stepped

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Speaker 2: up to the body, placed the thirty eight caliber handgun

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Speaker 2: close to Reagan's skull and fired twice just to make sure.

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Speaker 2: In the end, it came down to three unknown hitmen

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Speaker 2: to make Nano the magician himself disappear for good.

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Speaker 3: They've gone boom boom to drop him on the ground,

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Speaker 3: so then they've got to come up on him.

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Speaker 6: Yeah and do the headshot boom boom boom boom boom boom,

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Speaker 6: So they're still going to be there.

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Speaker 2: I'm journalist Matthew Condon and this is The Gangster's Ghost,

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Speaker 2: a podcast from The Australian. In this investigation, we uncover

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Speaker 2: previously unreported facts about the short lived criminal career of

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Speaker 2: Stuart John Reagan, speak to his family, friends and businesses

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Speaker 2: who go on the record for the first time, link

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Speaker 2: him to one of the most notorious mass murders in

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Speaker 2: Australian history, and uncover secret audio recordings that will bring

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Speaker 2: the ghost of Johnny Reagan Back to Life. This podcast

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Speaker 2: started out as a clinical look at one of Australia's

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Speaker 2: most reviled gangsters, but when the Reagan family came on board,

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Speaker 2: the project took on another dimension and begged the question

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Speaker 2: how does a family cope with the generational stain of

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Speaker 2: a murderer whose death was celebrated by criminals and police alike.

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Speaker 2: By mid nineteen seventy four, Reagan is already public enemy

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Speaker 2: number one with both the underworld and police, after the

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Speaker 2: disappearance and presumed murder of his girlfriend Toddler son Carlos

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Speaker 2: Scott Huey. Then in August, one of Reagan's close associates

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Speaker 2: and his alleged partner in organizing the Whiskey Go Go

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Speaker 2: nightclub mass murder in Brisbane the previous year, the criminal

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Speaker 2: Ratty Clark is shot dead in a pub in Sydney's

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Speaker 2: in a West. Just a few weeks later, Reagan, after

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Speaker 2: a pleasant September afternoon picnic with his young daughter Helen,

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Speaker 2: heads off to a pre arranged mystery meeting in Marrickville.

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Speaker 2: He arrives in Chapel Street relaxed and unarmed. This most

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Speaker 2: alert and paranoid of gangsters didn't see the trap. He

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Speaker 2: walked straight into why they're in the Bible their rife

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Speaker 2: throughout the works of Shakespeare. Two universal themes that will

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Speaker 2: forever run through human history, betrayal and revenge. This is

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Speaker 2: episode ten post mortem. Let's go back just a few

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Speaker 2: weeks before that Bloody's slaying in Marrickville. Let's head across

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Speaker 2: to the neighboring suburb of Petersham, less than two kilometers away,

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Speaker 2: to a busy little pub late on a Friday night

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Speaker 2: in August nineteen seventy four, just a month before the

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Speaker 2: blood bath in Chapel Street. The pub used to be

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Speaker 2: called the Newington Inn Hotel, and it was the watering

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Speaker 2: hole one of Reagan's closest associates, John Edward Ratty Clark

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Speaker 2: Ratty lived within walking or staggering distance in Stanmore Road,

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Speaker 2: and what happened to him in the Newington Inn would

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Speaker 2: prove to be a critical piece in the puzzle of

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Speaker 2: his mate Johnny Reagan's murder. Kelly Slater. Reagan and I

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Speaker 2: headed for the old pub one recent quiet Sunday. It

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Speaker 2: used to advertise rashers on posters out the front and

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Speaker 2: had a Neonlitz sign to its beer garden. Today it

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Speaker 2: is a family friendly hotel called Public House. Where are

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Speaker 2: we heading now? It's a Sunday in Sydney.

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Speaker 4: We're driving through the backstreets of Petersham. We're going to

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Speaker 4: the Newington Inn, which used to be the Petersham Inn.

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Speaker 4: I think where Ratty Clark was assassinated in August nineteen

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Speaker 4: seventy four was only a month or so before Reagan

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Speaker 4: was oh gunned down, because it had to be after.

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Speaker 4: So what do we know about Ratty?

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Speaker 2: At around ten thirty five pm on Friday, August twenty three,

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, Ratty Clark was drinking with friends after

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Speaker 2: hours in the lounge bar of the Newington Inn. This

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Speaker 2: was Ratty's local, so he was well acquainted with the licensee,

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Speaker 2: Philip Bernie. Ratty, you'll remember, was one of Reagan's closest sidekicks.

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Speaker 2: He was even named by private investigator Walter Cromwell as

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Speaker 2: one of the architects, along with Reagan, of the Whiskey

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Speaker 2: Ego Go nightclub fire bombing in Brisbane in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: three that killed fifteen people on this Friday night, Ratty

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Speaker 2: Bernie and five other people were enjoying a drink when

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Speaker 2: a bullet smashed through one of the pub windows and

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Speaker 2: struck Ratty cleanly in the back of the head. This

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Speaker 2: was no random pot shot. The bullet hit its target

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Speaker 2: even after penetrating glass. Ratty was probably dead before he

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Speaker 2: hit the carpet. His assassin escaped through the pub's rear

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Speaker 2: beer garden and car park and into the night. We're

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Speaker 2: just doing some research into a murder at this pub.

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Speaker 2: At this nine seventy four, Kelly and I were hardly

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Speaker 2: surprised when the ghost of Johnny Reagan struck once again

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Speaker 2: inside the old Newington Inn. His specter had been pursuing

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Speaker 2: us for years during our research, throwing us ridiculous coincidences

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Speaker 2: and strokes of luck. We even believed he had a

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Speaker 2: hand in Kelly's latest success in securing after a couple

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Speaker 2: of years documents from her second cousins in quest. Most

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Speaker 2: of the staff here weren't even born when Ratty and

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Speaker 2: shotgun Johnny Proud Sydney and were murdered within four weeks

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Speaker 2: of each other. Then the face of one of the

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Speaker 2: bar attendants, on learning of our historic mission, went from

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Speaker 2: confusion to shock. Into the beer gardens. Yes, do you

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Speaker 2: know anything about that?

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Speaker 7: Just had two guys come in yesterday telling me about it.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, and I've never.

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Speaker 7: Heard anything about it. I know about it. They were

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Speaker 7: they said, he said it happened at sixty seventy four. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: said years, Well, that was when I was born, when

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Speaker 7: you drop in or the Newton I think he said

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Speaker 7: it was, And he said he knew the guy.

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Speaker 2: They really all were they regulars or drop ins. I've

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Speaker 2: never seen them before. We're really chiny, unbelievable. In the

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Speaker 2: wake of Ratty's murder, the immediate word on the street

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Speaker 2: was that he'd been shot dead by his mate Reagan.

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Speaker 2: That rumor was perpetuated by, among others, killer Neddie Smith,

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Speaker 2: Reagan's old mate from the Gosford Home for Boys. Johnny

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Speaker 2: Reagan had for a few months now been the most

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Speaker 2: hated gangster, not just in Sydney but probably Australia for

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Speaker 2: supposedly murdering little Carlos Scott Huey back in May. The

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Speaker 2: whisper in the wake of Ratty's killing was that Ratty

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Speaker 2: had been the only one game enough to call Reagan

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Speaker 2: a child killer to his face, and had paid the

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Speaker 2: ultimate price in the arc of Reagan's criminal career, and

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Speaker 2: now with historical hindsight, the murders of Carlos and Clark,

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Speaker 2: within the space of a few months and at the

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Speaker 2: end of Reagan's life didn't quite fit. Both killings, according

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Speaker 2: to the Gossip, had as their motive a sudden lethal

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Speaker 2: irruption of Reagan's fabled temper. The child annoyed him dead,

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Speaker 2: his mate Ratty sledged him as a child killer. Dead

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Speaker 2: in the past, one of Reagan's victims may have been

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Speaker 2: a potential witness who might testify against him in court,

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Speaker 2: or a heavy who had muscled in on his criminal territory,

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Speaker 2: or someone who had dared to steal from him. But

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Speaker 2: Carlos and Ratty didn't fit the Reagan pattern. These so

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Speaker 2: everybody said or impulsive killings that spoke directly to Reagan

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Speaker 2: as a psychopath. These spoke to the inner tiger, out

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Speaker 2: of control and unpredictable. But would he really blow the

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Speaker 2: brains out of a close mate for care calling him

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Speaker 2: a name? I discussed this with Kelly.

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Speaker 3: Well Mark says ready Jack Clark was good.

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Speaker 4: Friends with John yep as in they were business associates,

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Speaker 4: weren't they correct?

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Speaker 3: And no foreseeable reason why he would kill him.

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Speaker 2: So this guy was drinking after closing.

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Speaker 4: This guy was drinking there after closing in the beer garden. Yes,

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Speaker 4: And I think it was a headshot, was it not.

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Speaker 4: So you've got to wonder. I mean, they blamed Reagan

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Speaker 4: for killing him, yep, even though he was Reagan's business associate.

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Speaker 4: But you've got to wonder why Clark was murdered when

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Speaker 4: he was good and for what reason. So, I mean,

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Speaker 4: we've battered this back and forth forever, but we think

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Speaker 4: it may stem all the way back to the whiskey

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Speaker 4: of Go Go fire bombing in nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 2: Police told the press that Clark's murder was a contract killing.

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Speaker 8: The killer is believed to have hidden in the garden

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Speaker 8: bar area of the Newington Inn hotel. He fired one shot,

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Speaker 8: Clark died before he could say anything. The killer is

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Speaker 8: believed to have run out through the hotel's back gate

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Speaker 8: and across a car park. A large team of detectives

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Speaker 8: from the cib reinforced Petersham detectives investigating the murder.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, Reagan had a premonition that his own

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Speaker 2: number was almost up half a dozen streets away from

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Speaker 2: Royal Randwick Racecourse. The Colonel Reagan's mother, Claire, lived with

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Speaker 2: her sister Thelma in a neat three bedroom Federation red

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Speaker 2: brick and tile roofed house in Duke Street, Kensington. They'd

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Speaker 2: moved out of the Liverpool Street Terrace some years earlier.

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Speaker 2: On a clear day and if the wind was right,

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Speaker 2: the Colonel, an absolutely mad punter, may have relished the

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Speaker 2: perfume of fresh horse manure from the nearby racetrack. Reagan

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Speaker 2: used Duke Street as another one of his bases. He

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Speaker 2: kept sets of clothes there, he secretly recorded his phone calls.

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Speaker 2: There he went about his criminal enterprises with the full

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Speaker 2: knowledge of his mother. He also grew attached to his neighbor,

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Speaker 2: old Missus Goodwin. There are numerous stories, apocryphal or otherwise,

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Speaker 2: of his affection for her, of seeing her in the city,

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Speaker 2: waiting for public transport in the rain, and driving her

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Speaker 2: back to Duke Street. He was close enough to her

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Speaker 2: also to share his fears in the final weeks of

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Speaker 2: his life. Kelly and I had been meaning to visit

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Speaker 2: Missus Goodwin for years, but by the time we got

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Speaker 2: around to it, she'd moved out, and the carpenters had

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Speaker 2: moved in, swarming her property like ants. The gentrification of

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Speaker 2: Kensington was well and truly underway, so.

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Speaker 4: Kel we finally made it to fifty six Duke Street,

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Speaker 4: standing in front of the house right now. All that

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Speaker 4: power tool noise you can hear in the background, unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: is a renovation of the house next door at number

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Speaker 4: fifty four Duke Street. Now, we came today hoping beyond

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Speaker 4: hope that the former neighbor of the Reagans, Missus Goodwin,

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Speaker 4: would still be there. We knew she would be elderly,

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Speaker 4: but she's critical in that she spoke to Johnny Reagan.

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Speaker 4: What did she tell him?

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Speaker 3: So john was walking down and she said, oh, John,

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Speaker 3: is everything okay? Don't look very well? And he said,

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Speaker 3: Missus Goodwin, I'm not long of this earth.

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Speaker 2: I'm not long of this earth. So he knew something

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Speaker 2: was up. He was pre emptying his own death in

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Speaker 2: a weird way. So we come to the house of

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Speaker 2: Missus Goodwin, and of course she's not here. That's what

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Speaker 2: we dreaded.

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Speaker 4: She'd either passed away or moved on, and she's moved on,

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Speaker 4: But there is an indication from the builder she.

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Speaker 2: May still be alive. And of this Earth, So yet

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Speaker 2: another Reagan goat track to go down a rabbit hole,

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Speaker 2: Away we Go. His de facto partner, marg also sent

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Speaker 2: something amiss in Reagan's final weeks. She remembered him manically

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Speaker 2: writing letters on behalf of his Independent Action Group for

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Speaker 2: a Better Police Force, his anti police corruption and anti

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Speaker 2: prostitution lobby group that was seen as not just a

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Speaker 2: joke by detectives and Reagan's fellow criminals, but as an

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Speaker 2: almost comical effort by Reagan to keep authorities at arm's length.

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Speaker 9: I think his love was short lived from the knowledge

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Speaker 9: that I knew that with the letters, he would be

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Speaker 9: writing to the police, and he was really stirring up

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Speaker 9: a lot of people. Whether it was the only police,

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Speaker 9: whether it was criminals, whether it was I don't know.

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Speaker 9: He was stirring people up. And it's definitely yeah.

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Speaker 2: But you never had a notion that if he keeps

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Speaker 2: this up, then he's going to die at the end

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Speaker 2: of a gun.

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Speaker 9: No, didn't he mend him my mind. I thought he

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Speaker 9: would just keep going, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, because he was a forceful personality.

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Speaker 9: He had a great personality. He was just so likable,

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Speaker 9: it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Do you think he thought he was indestructible.

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Speaker 9: I think that he told his mother's neighbor that he

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Speaker 9: wouldn't be around for much longer, and that was a

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Speaker 9: couple of weeks or a few days. He told missus Goodwin.

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Speaker 9: You know, Missus Goodwin, I don't think I'm going to

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Speaker 9: be around much longer. He did emphasize that to her.

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Speaker 9: They'd known each other for ye So that's the only

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Speaker 9: indication that we know that he made that he may

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Speaker 9: not be an anthhalone.

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Speaker 2: Reagan's last day was a snapshot of how complicated his

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Speaker 2: life had become. It showed how his family existence on

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Speaker 2: the surface was messily intersecting with his parallel gangster universe.

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Speaker 2: The two worlds were colliding. Detective Sergeant Donald Worsley of

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Speaker 2: the Special Crime Squad later delivered to the coroner the

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Speaker 2: narrative of Reagan's last day Sunday, September twenty two, nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy four. The early hours of Sunday morning remained confusing.

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Speaker 2: Mark in her statement to police two days after Reagan

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Speaker 2: was murdered, says Reagan came to her place on the

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Speaker 2: Saturday night, then in the early hours of Sunday, She said,

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Speaker 2: he asked her to ring Hell Scott Huey at the

300
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Speaker 2: Goldban Club and tell her to meet him at Marg's

301
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: place after she finished work. Mark says she never said

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Speaker 2: the words attributed to her in her statement and wasn't

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Speaker 2: even sure she had a phone at the time. She

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Speaker 2: said Reagan never asked her to ring the Golden Club.

305
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Speaker 2: Woolseley went on in his narrative to the coroner.

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Speaker 10: About five am on the twenty second of September nineteen

307
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Speaker 10: seventy four, some hours after retiring to bed, Reagan was

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Speaker 10: joined at these premises by Helen Scott Huey, a close

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Speaker 10: friend of the deceased. Both remained in bed together at

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Speaker 10: that address until about eleven am, when they arose and

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Speaker 10: partook of a cup of coffee. It was about this

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Speaker 10: time that the deceased and Helen Scott Huey decided they

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Speaker 10: would take the deceased's daughter, Helen to Watson's Bay Beach.

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Speaker 2: On the way to Watson's Bay, Worsley concluded Reagan, his daughter, Helen,

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Speaker 2: then three, and Scott Huey stopped in at the Colonel's

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Speaker 2: place in Duke Street, Kensington, where Reagan changed into his

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Speaker 2: swimming trunks.

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Speaker 10: On arrival, at Watson's Bay. The deceased Scott Huey and

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Speaker 10: the young girl Helen sat on the grass near Dunbar House,

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Speaker 10: where they had a meal. They remained in the Watson's

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Speaker 10: Bay area until about three point thirty pm.

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Speaker 2: Incredibly, Helen Reagan still remembers that afternoon.

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Speaker 11: Going back to that day, I mean, my father had

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Speaker 11: the from what I was told, he woul always take me,

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Speaker 11: cut me around a lot, so I was always with him.

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Speaker 12: Then, you know, I.

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Speaker 11: Always remember being on his lap driving the car suitbelt.

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Speaker 11: But I remember I had been at Watson's Bay. I

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Speaker 11: believe it was in a park at Watsons Bay, and

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Speaker 11: I was on swings and having a picnic.

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Speaker 2: Mark Reagan says by mid to late afternoon on that Sunday,

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Speaker 2: she went to find her daughter to bring her home.

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Speaker 2: Mark ended up at Scott Huey's flat in Paddington.

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Speaker 9: So my arrangements was he had taken her on a picnic.

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Speaker 9: That was fine, and as an afternoon went on, it

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Speaker 9: got later. So I'm there trying to find him. Then

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Speaker 9: I knew that Helen's got you, because I knew that

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Speaker 9: they were having a relationship. Okay, So I went down

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Speaker 9: the pathway and I knocked on the door, saying, John,

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Speaker 9: please give me Helen back. I'm here. Open the door

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Speaker 9: and I could hear him, and Helen remembers this. He

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Speaker 9: told me to be quiet. He's gone sh So I'm

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Speaker 9: giving you ten minutes to bring my daughter back. I'll

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Speaker 9: go down to the barrack murders. He did come down

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Speaker 9: within fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 2: How did you know that he was in there with Helen,

347
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Speaker 2: Scott hue and your daughter in that or did you

348
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Speaker 2: just have an educated guest educated guess. Helen remembers the

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Speaker 2: moment inside Scott Huey's flat.

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Speaker 11: And dad and her we're in a bed and I

351
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 11: was in bed next to it, and my mother turned

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Speaker 11: up really furious, and I remember Mum banging on the windows.

353
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Speaker 9: I know you're in there, and my.

354
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Speaker 11: Father actually telling me to be quiet, like sh be

355
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Speaker 11: quiet and go to sleep. But I remember my mother

356
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Speaker 11: being furious.

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Speaker 2: Marg was concerned about little Helen.

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Speaker 9: I was more angry about him if it was obviously

359
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Speaker 9: it was having a sexual relationship with her, that he

360
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 9: would do it in front of my child because it

361
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 9: was only a small apartment, disgusting. I was angry about

362
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Speaker 9: that that he put her on.

363
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Speaker 2: In that situation, marg shouted at Reagan he had ten

364
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Speaker 2: minutes to bring the child out. She then waited at

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Speaker 2: nearby Barrick Motors, Reagan's business headquarters, in her myro own Valiant.

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Speaker 9: He's brought Helen Helen Scott virtually wasn't letting and he's

367
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 9: brought her and put her in the car. But then

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Speaker 9: he said, I want you to say that I want

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Speaker 9: you to drive somewhere, and I'm like this, you ain't working,

370
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Speaker 9: And then he's gone into the main part what I

371
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Speaker 9: call hisself is in Barrack Majors. He took the keys

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Speaker 9: out of my ignition too.

373
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Speaker 2: Just to make sure you didn't go anywhere.

374
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Speaker 9: But I had a second set of keys, and I

375
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Speaker 9: was assuming by that time.

376
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: Tell me it just briefly, had you ever made the

377
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: decision to carry a second set of keys with you?

378
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: Why did you have it on in the car like

379
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: in the glove box.

380
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it was no particular reason. And in the

381
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 9: actual fact that I'm really surprised I even thought about it.

382
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 9: But anyhow, and I remember him saying the main thing

383
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Speaker 9: that I seen him standing there with his mouth open

384
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Speaker 9: as I drove off, So that was the last time

385
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 9: you ever, the last time I seen John.

386
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 2: In the end, it was left to Helen Scott Huey

387
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: to drive Reagan to his meeting in Marrickville. She reminded

388
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: him of the appointment after the tiff with marg This

389
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: is what Helen Scott Huey told police.

390
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 13: Because he told me earlier that he had a meet

391
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 13: at six o'clock. I said to him, haven't you got

392
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 13: to meet someone at six? John then looked at his

393
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 13: watch and I saw that it was a quarter to six,

394
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 13: and he said, yes, we have to go. We both

395
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 13: got into my car and he drove and he took off.

396
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 13: I didn't take too much notice where we were going,

397
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 13: but I've got a feeling that we drive down Downing Street,

398
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 13: and we passed a swimming pool off Victoria Road at

399
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 13: Marrickville and into the street near the Henson Park Hotel.

400
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 13: We stopped near there he got out of the car.

401
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 13: Before he got out of the car, he said he

402
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 13: was too early, and he now thought it was half

403
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 13: past six. He had to have the meet. He got

404
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 13: out of the car, which was parked on the left

405
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 13: hand side of the roadway, and he walked over to

406
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 13: the other side of the road. I moved into the

407
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 13: driver's seat and I drove off and as I got

408
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 13: to the corner near the hotel, I looked in the

409
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 13: rear vision mirror and I saw him strolling up towards

410
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 13: Illawarra Road. That was the last I saw of him.

411
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: In his statement, Detective Worsley reiterated.

412
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 10: As Scott Huey drove away, she looked in the rear

413
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 10: vision mirror and saw the deceased walking towards z Illawarra Road.

414
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: This small fact of the mirror stood out in both

415
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: Scott Hughey's statement and Worsley's story to the coroner. It

416
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: intrigued both myself and former detective Michael Drury. Why did

417
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: both police and the witness include this almost innocuous detail.

418
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated how you sort of snagged upon the point

419
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: in the statement where Helen Scott Huey as she was

420
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: driving away from the scene, when she dropped him off.

421
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: It's a very clear point in the statement that she

422
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: looked in her rear vision mirror and saw him. I

423
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: stopped when I read that because I thought that, a

424
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: it's a very unusual observation to make, and secondly, why

425
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: would you make that observation, the observation points towards the witness,

426
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: as in Helen Scott Huey saying I was driving away.

427
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: Let's just reiterate it. I looked in the rear vision

428
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: mirror and saw him, so therefore I must have been

429
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: driving away from the scene because I saw him in

430
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: the mirror.

431
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 14: It's adding emphasis to the fact that, as she claims,

432
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 14: she was driving away from the location of where the murder.

433
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: Took place exactly. Other unanswered questions emerge from the statements

434
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: and coronial documents. How was Reagan going to get back

435
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: home after the meeting in Marrickville? Here's Kelly Remember she

436
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: was also a former New South Wales police officer and

437
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: had that similar sense of logic as Michael Drury.

438
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: My thing is, where did Helen Scott go when she

439
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 3: dropped him off? If he's here, how's he going to

440
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: to get back to Sydney without a lift?

441
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: Did he have that arranged that he would be That's

442
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: what I want to know. No one's ever talked about that.

443
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: No, did she hang around? Did she park somewhere and

444
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 3: hang around because he never went he was never going

445
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: to catch public transport. If there was and there was

446
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: Was he going to wring her back? Or was she

447
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: simply waiting for him? Therefore? Did she see? Yeah, like,

448
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: there's no way he would have come this far from

449
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: his nest unarmed.

450
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: I mean no mobile phones. You can't just say I think.

451
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: We'd have to go to a phone booth or the pub.

452
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 3: It makes sense that if Helen drops him off, Helen

453
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: puts him up, don't yep.

454
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: And here's Michael Drury independently following the same line of thought.

455
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 14: Let me ask you this, if I may please, so,

456
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 14: Miss good Huey takes Reagan to this meeting and the

457
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 14: police interview her, and she said she didn't know what

458
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 14: the meeting was about. This is from Worsley's covering statement,

459
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 14: which is like a story narrative. She doesn't know what

460
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 14: the meeting's about, and she doesn't know who he was meeting. Yes, okay,

461
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 14: so she takes him to this meeting, which is some

462
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 14: distance away from where he lives. Okay, Now after the meeting,

463
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 14: what's he going to do? Get an uber home?

464
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 5: Is he?

465
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 14: It would be logical for her to wait there for him.

466
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: How would he get home?

467
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 5: Exactly?

468
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 14: What was he there for? He didn't have a bag

469
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 14: with him full of money, or a bag full of drugs,

470
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 14: or a bag full of guns, etc. She drove him

471
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 14: to meet someone, and I would suggest it's highly probable

472
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 14: that she was in the area parked in the car

473
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 14: waiting for him to take him home after the meeting,

474
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 14: which is only logical.

475
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: Scott Huey told the police that after she dropped Reagan off,

476
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: she went to her mother's house in Bellfield, west of Merrickville.

477
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: Reagan then decided to buy a snack from the Greek

478
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: delicatessen opposite the Henson Park Hotel. Here's Worsley again.

479
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 10: I have established that shortly after six pm, the deceased

480
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 10: went to a small mixed business shop. Whilst at the shop,

481
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 10: the deceased purchased some cabanossi and then left and walked

482
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 10: into Chapel Street.

483
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: Kelly and I, tracing Reagan's final steps, stood at the

484
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: doorway to the old delicatessen. It's no longer a shop

485
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: but a converted residence.

486
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: So this is the delicatessen, the Pulos family delicatessen. Hell,

487
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: some old grapevines are still growing out the side.

488
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, gorgeous, so that would have been maybe the family

489
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: saloons on the door and were greeted by an elderly

490
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: Greek lady. Could this possibly be an A Poulos, the

491
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: young woman who served Reagan in those final minutes before

492
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: he was murdered. Could we be that lucky? Hello, Hey,

493
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: I know how are you. We're hoping you could help us.

494
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: We're doing some research on the Poulos family who had

495
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: this delicatessen in nineteen in the nineteen seventies.

496
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Sure, yes, this building before before before it wasn't Anna.

497
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: The Poolosses had moved out decades earlier. But we stood

498
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: on the steps into the old shop and tried to

499
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: take ourselves back to that Sunday evening in September nineteen

500
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: seventy four, and a Pooloss was in her delicatessen when

501
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: Reagan stepped through the door. She said in her statement,

502
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: it was.

503
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 15: Some time after six pm the same day when I

504
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 15: noticed a man in the shop. My husband served him,

505
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 15: and I heard this man ask my husband for cabanassi,

506
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 15: but he called it cabana, and I heard him say

507
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 15: to my husband, not too big. I was serving other

508
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 15: persons at the time, but I remember this man leaving

509
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 15: the shop, This man who purchased the Kabanassi was about

510
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 15: thirty years old, bare hair and complexion. He may not

511
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 15: have had a lot of hair on top, but his

512
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 15: hair was not long. He was wearing I think sports clothes.

513
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 15: I think the top was something like a jumper with

514
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 15: the zipper. I cannot remember the color, but it was dark.

515
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 15: When he spoke to my husband, his voice sounded rough

516
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 15: and I would say demanding.

517
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: Shortly after, Reagan walked out with his snack and a

518
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: Pouloss went to the back of the shop and into

519
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: the kitchen where she was cooking.

520
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 15: I heard what sounded to me like the exhaust of

521
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 15: a car. There were three or four explosions. They came

522
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 15: from the direction of Chapel Street, and they sounded very loud.

523
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 15: With these explosions or shots, I heard a number of

524
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 15: dogs in the vicinity start to bark. I then went

525
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 15: into Chapel Street, walked to the lane that runs behind

526
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 15: our shop, and I was looking generally to see where

527
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 15: the noises came from when I heard someone running and

528
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 15: I looked in the lane to my left and I

529
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 15: saw two men running from around the bend in the

530
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 15: lane towards.

531
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: Me, and Apulos said the men hopped into a car

532
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: parked in the lane behind her delicatessen and took off.

533
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: She described them as both of medium build, one was

534
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: taller than the other. The driver had shielded his face

535
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: from her with his hand. We continued walking down Chapel

536
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 2: Street in Reagan's final footsteps. As best as we could

537
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: gather from various witness statements, especially an a pool looss,

538
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: we needed to stand on the precise spot where Reagan's

539
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: body came to rest.

540
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: And A Poulos who worked in a Merrickville shop said

541
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: in evidence that she served Reagan minutes before he was

542
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 3: shot dead. After serving some cabanossi to Reagan, she heard

543
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 3: several loud explosions near her shop, ran out and saw

544
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: Reagan lying face down on the road in a pool

545
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 3: of blood. Reagan had been working west in Chapel Street

546
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 3: when he was shot in the back.

547
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's have a look.

548
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: We think it's roughly where that zebra crossing is, right,

549
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: So this young woman comes out here. Here's the noises

550
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: rushes out here, and can see a body down there.

551
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: Right, Let's go and walk down. This is all the

552
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: pool losses right down to the corner. Apparently it's a

553
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: massive block. Many months after we'd visited the murder scene,

554
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: Kelly called me she'd found something curious in Anapoulos's statement

555
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: to police that I'll admit I'd completely overlooked. It was

556
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: just a couple of sentences, but those words tore a

557
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: massive hole in the fabric of the official police narrative

558
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: of Reagan's murder after half a century. What Annapoulos said

559
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: in her statement recorded by police in the nearby Newtown

560
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: police station two days after the murder has never been

561
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: satisfactorily explained. It's the flow in the rug. After seeing

562
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 2: the car with the two potential suspects take off, Anapulos

563
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 2: says this.

564
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 15: I then went across the road to where another Greek

565
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 15: lady was standing. I spoke to her. Then together we

566
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 15: started to walk down Chapel Street towards the school, and

567
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 15: at the beginning of the building of the school, there

568
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 15: was a car driving down Chapel Street, and in the

569
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 15: headlights I saw that there was the body of a

570
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 15: man laying on the roadway, and the husband of the

571
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 15: Greek lady I was with, who was where this body

572
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 15: was on the road, called to us to stay where

573
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 15: we were.

574
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 2: Who was this Greek lady and her husband both must

575
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: have witnessed the shooting, given they were already there in

576
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: Chapel Street when Annapoulos ran out on hearing the gunfire

577
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: from the kitchen in the back of her shop. Who

578
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 2: were these two people? By the time Annapoulos entered Chapel

579
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 2: Street just seconds after hearing the gunshots, the mysterious Greek

580
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 2: lady and her husband were already there. Given the time frame,

581
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: you could safely assume then that the Greek lady and

582
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: her husband had witnessed the Assassins shooting rega. Didn't this

583
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: make them the number one witnesses in Reagan's murder? And

584
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: what was the Greek lady's husband doing leaning over Reagan's body?

585
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: How did he get there so quickly after the shooting,

586
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: which included two close range headshots. This may have been speculation,

587
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: but it was tethered in logic. Was the so called

588
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: husband leaning over Reagan's body actually the man he'd arranged

589
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 2: to meet that evening? And was the Greek lady on

590
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: the footpath nearby actually Helen Scott Hughey. I needed to

591
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: talk to Detective Michael Drury about this extraordinary scenario. I

592
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: needed him to hover over the scene and explain what

593
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: was credible and what was not.

594
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 14: There could have been several reasons for the motive of

595
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 14: the meeting, and it could have all been re laid

596
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 14: to Reagan by Helen Scott Huey, because we know he's

597
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 14: as paranoid as anything, and he goes wandering off with

598
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 14: her on a Sunday evening at that time, it would

599
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 14: have been dark. She had to know who he was meeting,

600
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 14: and it's highly probable, I would suggest to you that

601
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 14: she was going to take him home after this meeting

602
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 14: because he had no bags, no money, no guns, no drugs,

603
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 14: et cetera, et cetera on him. So it really wasn't

604
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 14: intended to be a long meeting anyway, and it was

605
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 14: going to be on the footpath, et cetera. And what's

606
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 14: happened is, there's no doubt in my mind, roughly around

607
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 14: that location, probably in the school, there's those two co

608
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 14: offenders have been hiding in waiting. Reagan's there with the fellow.

609
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 14: They've come out and gone bang bang bang bang bang.

610
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 14: There's no adverse body language from the fellow that's talking

611
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 14: to Reagan. Higgans in a relaxed state, if you know

612
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 14: what I mean, I fish. You can see from the

613
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 14: description of the eight worns a couple of them are

614
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 14: flesh worms where he's grazed. But it sounds to me

615
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 14: like the final shots, the one through the head and

616
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 14: one through the back of the head, are to absolutely

617
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 14: guarantee that he's dead, and they didn't take place when

618
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 14: he was standing up. They took place when he was

619
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 14: laying down, and that would have absolutely guaranteed, because if

620
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 14: you're involved in this type of behavior, you don't wanting

621
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 14: to recover six months later and come looking for you.

622
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: Say, even though a couple might have been grazers, and

623
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 2: the couple might have been close range headshots, the other shots,

624
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: how difficult is it at dusk or in the dark

625
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: to hit a target with a thirty eight with that

626
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 2: sort of accuracy.

627
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 14: They must have been very close, you know, within twenty

628
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 14: meters or less. Because you've got to remember also that

629
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 14: he was talking to this other mile and so you

630
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 14: didn't want the other male shot.

631
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: We don't know whether he was talking to that male.

632
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: We know that there was an a male leaning over

633
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: the body, which the Greek lady on the footpath said,

634
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: that's my husband. Yeah, but I mean, given the timeframe

635
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 2: of the sound of the explosions and Apoulos running into

636
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: the chapel street, bumping into the lady and seeing a

637
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 2: man over a body, is it wrong just to hypothesize

638
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: that the man leaning over the body might have been

639
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 2: one of the shooters?

640
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: Correct?

641
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 2: Because the timeframe is so tight. Correct, Drury made a

642
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: cold assessment of the scene as if it was frozen

643
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 2: in time.

644
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 14: Look all this happened in the blink of an eye,

645
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 14: and whether it's a second or two here or a

646
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 14: second or two there, that's okay in the circumstances. What

647
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 14: you've got to look at is, let me is a

648
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 14: word that everyone will understand the sinister movement or behavior

649
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 14: of individuals over this couple of minutes around the killing

650
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 14: of Reagan. Okay, I would suggest to you that there

651
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 14: is nothing sinister about the behavior of Anapoulos. The two

652
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 14: males that she sees run down to a vehicle, jump

653
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 14: in the vehicle and drive off at high speed. That

654
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 14: is sinister. There is no doubt about that behavior of

655
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 14: the male standing over the body, who I take it

656
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 14: police have not identified.

657
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: Well, this is the big question. I mean, this is

658
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: what I wanted to ask you, I would have would

659
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: have assumed, even at a distance of fifty years, that

660
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: the so called Greek woman on the footpath and the

661
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: man leaning over the body her so called husband. I

662
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: would have imagined to any investigating police officer arriving on

663
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: the scene, that they'd be the first people I'd want

664
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: to talk to.

665
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 14: Correct, they're primary witnesses. Yeah, they're at the scene of

666
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 14: the crime. They're either eyewitnesses to the crime or they're

667
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 14: involved in the crime.

668
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 9: Yes.

669
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: Another question begs to be answered. Had Reagan been relaxed

670
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: and comfortable going to his meeting unarmed without his usual

671
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: bulletproof vest or bodyguard because he was accompanying his girlfriend,

672
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: Helen Scott Huey, had she gone and parked the car

673
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: while he bought his cabanossi in the pool Loss delicatessen

674
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: Kelly Slater. Reagan would put questions about the unidentified Greek

675
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: woman and her husband to the New South Wales Unsolved

676
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 2: Homicide Team. She was told that, according to the Reagan murderphiles,

677
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: both of these mysterious strangers apparently gave statements to police

678
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: after Reagan was killed. The records said the couple had

679
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: been interviewed in their home. Why were they interviewed at

680
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: home and not in various police stations like other witnesses.

681
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: Why weren't they brought in immediately and questioned by police?

682
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: What were their names? Did they even exist? And why

683
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: were their statements never presented to the coroner during the

684
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: inquest into Reagan's death in nineteen seventy seven. Why weren't

685
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: they called as witnesses before the coroner given their importance

686
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: to the murder investigation. Michael Drury offered an hypothesis.

687
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 14: Well, let me put this to you. We know that

688
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 14: Scott Hughey takes Reagan to this alleged meeting, okay, and

689
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 14: from there, at this alleged meeting, when she drops him off,

690
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 14: we then know that Scott Hugh he does a statement

691
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 14: for the police shortly thereafter, days or whatever, and she

692
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 14: says she sees him walking off down the footpath in

693
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 14: her rear vision mirror.

694
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 2: Correct.

695
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 14: I find that interesting because I also understand that shortly

696
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 14: after he gets out of the vehicle, he goes into

697
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 14: the shop and gets a cabanossi, and so he would

698
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 14: have been out of eyesight and he comes out of

699
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 14: the shop. To me, it's logical that she'd wait on

700
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 14: the footpath for him taking down to meet her husband

701
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 14: to talk about something. She's moved away. It's an ambush

702
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 14: and from there she's been caught at the scene by

703
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 14: Anna Poulos. I'm surprised that she said that the man

704
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 14: leaning over the body was her husband to Anapoulos, I

705
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 14: imagine that the police would have got a statement from

706
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 14: him to miss Scott hue to say that is my husband.

707
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 14: I think that's there very very sinister evidence from an

708
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 14: independent witness, I think, and at Pool Loss this is

709
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 14: fantastic because this fits perfectly to This is a setup

710
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 14: and a sting by the family and friends.

711
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: The family of Helen Scott Hughey in retaliation for the

712
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: murder of Carlos. Correct I had a long discussion about

713
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,919
Speaker 2: this with Kelly. Helen Scott Huey formed a peculiar relationship,

714
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: you'd have to say, with Reagan's de facto wife, Margaret,

715
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: They in fact had a friendship. Correct and Helen Scott

716
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: Huey expressed to Margaret she didn't believe Reagan had murdered

717
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 2: her son. So you have the initial reaction that from

718
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 2: witnesses we've spoken to that she was convinced Reagan murdered

719
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: the boy. Then you have Helen Scott poling up with

720
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 2: Margaret Reagan and saying John didn't do it. These two

721
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 2: facts are not reconciling with each other, right.

722
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 3: Help or have you got Lee threatening her like you

723
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: know what they were like back then?

724
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, So then we come to this, if we continue

725
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: this theory, Reagan spent his last day with Helen Scott

726
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: Huey and his daughter to Margaret Helen yep, as we've

727
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: looked at that, it was a dispute outside Barrack Motors.

728
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 2: When Mark came to pick up Helen, she took off

729
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: with the child, exasperating Reagan. She'd never stood up to

730
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: him like that before. And then he was subsequently driven

731
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: to this so called meeting in Marrickville by Helen Scott Huey, and.

732
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 3: Helen Scott Huey reminded him of Oliver Meeting.

733
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: This is something we've discussed at nauseam for years. But

734
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 2: if we'd run with this theory, and it's only a theory,

735
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: Stuart John Reagan was a very very cautious criminal. Extremely

736
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: he was permanently alert and in the latter years constantly armed.

737
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: I mean, I've spoken to one of his girlfriends for

738
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: one of a better word in the sixties, and he

739
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: carried a small foom in an ankle holster, so he

740
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: was prepared at all time, wore a body armor, had

741
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: body armor and bodyguard. But on this Sunday when he's

742
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 2: dropped off at Merrickville, he has no weapons, no body armor,

743
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: no bodyguard. Wanders into a shop by himself and buys

744
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: his favorite sausage, comes out and just sallies down the

745
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: road on a Sunday afternoon. Walk into this trap.

746
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 3: And he's walked past a motor vehicle in an alley.

747
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 3: He hasn't we raised any eyebrows. He's kept going down

748
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: the dark alley.

749
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: So why on this Sunday, in that moment is this

750
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: man who is perpetually on guard for his own life,

751
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: given what he's involved in. Why in this one moment

752
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: is he totally defenseless like.

753
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 3: He's someone with him. When you've got other people with

754
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 3: your guard comes down a bit, don't.

755
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: It, Okay? So this leads to logically exactly that was

756
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 2: he with somebody whom he felt completely relaxed with. Was

757
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: he going to meeting that? It indeed may have been

758
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: appropriate for this mythical companion that had relaxed him to

759
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: the point of where which is just like he was

760
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 2: going for an afternoon.

761
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: Walk, like a dinner, a dinner or something like that.

762
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: Ye're not a high ocdane business meeting, because he kept

763
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: his biness and pleasures very very separate.

764
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: Very separate, very separate.

765
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: So was he walking down Chapel Street with a girlfriend

766
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: going to a social event, which would explain the lack

767
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: of weaponry, the casualness of the moment, and also the

768
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: vulnerability of a very very cautious man who ordinarily would

769
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: never a million years have walked into such a trap.

770
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: Detective Eric Gollan was working that Sunday when news filtered

771
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: through to police that the notorious Johnny Reagan had been

772
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: gunned down in Merrickville.

773
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 16: We were working on the afternoon chist on twenty one

774
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 16: der Vision. We all got a call to go to

775
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 16: the SiO Boo and report to Rocky Morson.

776
00:50:59,280 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 3: Right.

777
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: Was that every one in the division.

778
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 16: Or everyone available, everyone.

779
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: Available, Wow, and he held a meeting there.

780
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 16: He breathed us, all, yeah, he got all specific tasks.

781
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 16: He is really and had so many different properties and

782
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 16: so many different motives. People would want to get rid

783
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 16: of him. I never ever actually met him. Everyone was

784
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 16: aware of him. He was notorious for his activities and

785
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 16: of course he was the number one suspect for the murderers.

786
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 16: Carlos got Hughey, the little boy from Taylor Square.

787
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 2: Despite a myriad of possible motives, Eric said, everything quickly

788
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: came back to Carlos and his mother, Helen.

789
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 16: The theory was that the mother of the child set

790
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 16: him up because he was very guarded. Body guards with

791
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 16: him at different time, but he turned up for this

792
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 16: meeting with no one name.

793
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 2: Well, that's the great mystery, isn't it. Yeah, that's so

794
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: out of character for him.

795
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 16: We were told given all specific jobs to do by Rocky.

796
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 16: He knew all the addresses of the houses for the

797
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 16: owned and the place. He's like a frequent No one

798
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 16: had a motive at that stage for the murder, but

799
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 16: it was a very vicious murder in the middle of

800
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 16: the street in marytll So we went out and we

801
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 16: had to just sit off in surveillance mode on different

802
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 16: houses because it wasn't known whether or not it was

803
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 16: someone who he'd upset with the girls, or whether he'd

804
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 16: upset someone who was in the houses, or so will

805
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:34,399
Speaker 16: poor old Rocky. He's gone now, unfortunately, but just as

806
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 16: a comed you saw it, he said. Now when you

807
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 16: go out there, he said, make sure if you find

808
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 16: out who did it, he said, being straight back into me.

809
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 16: So I can pin a police friends, bad John, he says,

810
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 16: then we'll deal with it.

811
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god. So that was that was the level

812
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 2: of loathing that Ricka was held in.

813
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 16: Yeah, yeah, and of course the all stories about Reagan,

814
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 16: and then the Rocky said, well get out of here,

815
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 16: do your job. Record back to his anything he said,

816
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 16: and Gilligan, iye, gone down to the Maork So we're

817
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 16: going to put a mirror under his nose, put some

818
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 16: pins in his foot to see the bus just dead.

819
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: When nothing turned up. After watching Reagan's properties, Golan and

820
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 2: other officers decided to head over to Chapel Street, Merrickville

821
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,760
Speaker 2: and take a look for themselves. And was the street

822
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: was sealed off when you arrived?

823
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 17: Oh?

824
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 16: I think they'd finished with the in those days, they'd

825
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 16: finished with the crime scene right age.

826
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 2: But definitely Reagan's blood on the road.

827
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 5: I believe it to be.

828
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 16: Anyway, you know quite a number rounds.

829
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 2: I asked, Was there a measure of relief amongst police that,

830
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: however he'd been dispatched, he was gone.

831
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 16: Well, you got to look at it two ways. I

832
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 16: don't think there was any release. I think there would

833
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 16: have been a lot of release if we had found

834
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 16: out who actual we did it, that would have been

835
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 16: a big release because she would have got ridy to

836
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 16: tell them then, wouldn't he or more? But it was

837
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 16: a bad crook, and I don't think he got convicted

838
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 16: of much at all because he was just too smart

839
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 16: for everyone.

840
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 2: Margare recalls when she was informed that Johnny Reagan was dead.

841
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: When did you first hear about him being shot to death?

842
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 9: The same night? I can't remember where I was when

843
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 9: they were in me.

844
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 2: They didn't come to the door or no.

845
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 9: I don't know how I knew. I think I was

846
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 9: at my father's house. I can't remember, but it.

847
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: Was that Sunday evening.

848
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 9: It was definitely that night.

849
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 4: And they said Johnny's been shot dead. Yeah, do you

850
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 4: vaguely even remember what your reaction was?

851
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 5: Shock?

852
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 9: Of course it was shot, Yeah.

853
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: Of course, fears for your children without a fire.

854
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 9: I didn't even think of that. I just thought, well,

855
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 9: why shocked?

856
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 5: Shocked?

857
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 9: I put myself in that situation that I was there,

858
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 9: I called a beatane.

859
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 2: Were you called upon to identify the body?

860
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 17: No?

861
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 2: You know who was?

862
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 9: No?

863
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 3: Do you know?

864
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 9: No?

865
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 2: I mean usually it is the prerogative of the father

866
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 2: of the family. Do you think the colonel.

867
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 9: Definitely, I'd say it was her.

868
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 2: Do you know how she reacted initially to her son's death?

869
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 9: She blamed the police? She did, Yes, she did. Police

870
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 9: to kill my son, the police to kill my son.

871
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: You don't know what basis she might have had for

872
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 2: that theory.

873
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 9: See, his mother knew more than what everybody thought. She

874
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 9: knew he would confine in his mother fears, since he's

875
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 9: always confided in his mother.

876
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: Do you think she knew more about his gangster activities.

877
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 5: Than you did?

878
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 9: Yes?

879
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: Yes, what sort of mother would know that and not

880
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: try and make a an intervention?

881
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 9: Or she loved the limelight of it. My sons were

882
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 9: out there, and my son's you know, dear my son

883
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 9: to bring money home, bring jewelry home, bring them whatever.

884
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 9: And he's tough, and he's tough. Some people love that

885
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 9: kind of thing. Look at my son, look at me,

886
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 9: and look at me. So I think that was don't

887
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 9: muck around or my son will get you, you know

888
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 9: that kind of thing.

889
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 2: So she think you think she sort of fed off

890
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: it or lived lived off his repretation.

891
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 9: Definitely for many years. It's a really sad story. It's

892
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 9: a sad story. He confided in his mother and listened

893
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 9: to his mother more than anybody, even us. I personally,

894
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 9: myself will never forgive her. Never. First of all, she

895
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 9: created a monster with John. She created from his childhood

896
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 9: who as a normal kid from a country town and

897
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 9: comes into the big city and changes completely. Was she

898
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 9: loved it. She loved every minute of it.

899
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: That's not normal.

900
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 9: No, it's not normal.

901
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,919
Speaker 2: One of the first things police asked marg was did

902
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 2: you arrange to have Reagan killed? It's a question the

903
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: police had to ask. And why not? He was fueling

904
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: around with plenty of other women. Had she had enough

905
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: of his violent, philandering ways. Naturally, she denied the allegation.

906
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 2: She can't remember the details, but she said she was

907
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: further brought in for questioning at the Darlinghurst police station.

908
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: I don't know what I knew. He was killed and

909
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: they brought me in. I can't remember that right, And

910
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 2: the purpose of bringing you in if you knew was

911
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: to tell you again, or to tell you from the

912
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: horse's mouth, or well, I assume so.

913
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 18: But because at one stage in the conversation he did

914
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 18: ask me whether I had killed Johnny, meaning jealousy and

915
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 18: things like that, because we knew that he was involved

916
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 18: with other women. And did you have any input inship

917
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 18: together with john That's really the thing that's stuck in

918
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 18: my head, and of.

919
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 2: Course I've gone no, of course not really.

920
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 18: A lot of that conversation is blocking my head somewhere.

921
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: What shocked Mark given at the time was why Johnny

922
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: would enter Chapel Street unarmed and alone.

923
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 18: Actually worked out as walking through Chapel Street or to Marple.

924
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 18: He was confident that whoever he was meeting was his

925
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,919
Speaker 18: friend or or Isnes his partner or somebody. He went

926
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 18: whoever they had been, with great confidence. That's what I think,

927
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 18: because I knew how the man work. She would never

928
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 18: go anywhere. He would have someone beside him. We think

929
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 18: he would do things together with people, you know what

930
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 18: I mean. Yes, So for him to go to that

931
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 18: linking at Marathon, it was just like a Sunday walk

932
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 18: to him, oh onto the Spawner shop had happen. Not

933
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 18: seeing the corner and walk down the road. Whatever it did,

934
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 18: he had no fear wherever he was going. To remember

935
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 18: that I seen him what an hour and a half

936
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 18: before he was killed, and he wanted me to drive Hidney,

937
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 18: to drive him somewhere. He didn't say Martha, he didn't

938
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 18: say link. If did, don't want you to drive me.

939
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 18: And as you know the rest of the story, and

940
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 18: I have his daughter in the car. So when you

941
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 18: think about that that way, do you think that he

942
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 18: would have been capable of taking me and his daughter

943
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 18: if he thought there was fear, I would have probably

944
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 18: never met who he was needy if I would have went,

945
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 18: If he would have thought it was a setup, we

946
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 18: have asked me to go, and I had towering the car,

947
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 18: and that's his own child. So he's Gonel with the

948
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 18: uppermis whoever is leading not a problem.

949
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 2: Everybody knew that Reagan only trusted a small handful of

950
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: people in his world. One at the top of the

951
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: list was mob boss Frederick Paddles Anderson, the father figure

952
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: sitting at the table at Checkers Nightclub celebrating Reagan's twenty

953
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: first birthday in nineteen sixty six. The master to Reagan's

954
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 2: criminal apprentice. Reagan's longtime solicitor Michael Seymour thought of Paddles

955
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 2: down the years in relation to Reagan's murder.

956
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 19: When when he was shot and it appeared to he

957
01:00:53,520 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 19: was lured too, Mark Gil I someone's early fast. I

958
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 19: thought about it.

959
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 3: Now, the would it be Fred?

960
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: Don't know really well?

961
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 7: Was that your first thought?

962
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 2: Why did you think that.

963
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 19: Reagan trusted him? Would have been had to someone that

964
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 19: Reagan trusted implicitly because I heard that he was to

965
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 19: meet someone and there was a bit of money involved.

966
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: Then there's this recollection from a criminal source of mine

967
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: in Queensland. I trust this source implicitly. In over fifteen years.

968
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 2: He has never, in a single instance provided me with

969
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 2: even slightly inaccurate information. He's what the criminal milieu call

970
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: a scaly wag or a scaly but he's as honest

971
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 2: as the day is long. This scalley of mine was

972
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: and remains friends with many leading criminals in the late

973
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 2: sixties and early nineteen seventies. One of those friends will

974
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: call Max. Max worked for Reagan in the early nineteen

975
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: seventies in Reagan's lucrative land scams. Max was one of

976
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 2: the scams salesmen who gilded the lily, sold the land

977
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 2: and did a runner with the cash. Through Reagan, Max

978
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 2: struck up a close relationship with the boss of bosses,

979
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 2: Paddles Anderson in Sydney. Max and Paddles loved a punt

980
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 2: and countless times the two of them had dinner and drinks.

981
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 2: Not long after Reagan's murder, Max and Paddles were socializing.

982
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: That's when Paddles told Max something extraordinary about the day

983
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: Reagan was killed in Chapel Street, Marrickville. Why did the

984
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 2: usually ultra cautious Reagan turn up to that ill fated

985
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: meeting unarmed because of Paddles. Paddles, as close to Reagan

986
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 2: as a voting uncle, told Reagan to attend his meeting

987
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: without a gun. In short, Reagan was set up by

988
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 2: one of the only men in the world that he trusted.

989
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 2: Here's my source relaying Max's story about what Paddles told

990
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 2: him all those years ago. So what did he say?

991
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 2: From your memory?

992
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 5: Agan, paddle said, you've got a meet up with someone

993
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 5: that he didn't say who they were, but he said,

994
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 5: make sure you're not carrying a piece in a handcom.

995
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: So Paddles said that to Reagan.

996
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 5: To Reagan, yes, made sure you're not carrying a piece,

997
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 5: was his words, told him directly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But

998
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 5: Paddles told he said, I call Reagan to make sure

999
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 5: when he gets to meet you don't have a peace on.

1000
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: So Paddles was basically saying to him that he set

1001
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 2: him up for death.

1002
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 5: Well I did think so, Yeah, for sure, Yeah, obviously

1003
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 5: he set him up. Yeah.

1004
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 2: Reagan's post mortem was conducted on Monday, September twenty three,

1005
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, at the City Morguan Glebe. The cause

1006
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: of death was due to bullet wounds to the head, chest,

1007
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 2: and liver. The autopsy recorded penetrating wound six millimeters in

1008
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: diameter to the left lumbar region, penetrating entry wound ten

1009
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: centimeters to the right of mid line of back. The

1010
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 2: surrounding area of this wound was tattooed and it was

1011
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 2: estimated that the shot was fired from approximately six inches

1012
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: from the wound. Grazing wound consistent with a bullet graze,

1013
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: penetrating wound in the right lumbar region, penetrating wound close

1014
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 2: to this wound, penetrating wound at the front of chest

1015
01:04:55,080 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: ten centimeters below right sternum, clavicular joint penetrating wound to

1016
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 2: the right occipital region of the skull, penetrating wound to

1017
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 2: the left mastoid process of the back of the skull.

1018
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 2: There was damage to Reagan's right lung, liver, spleen, stomach, pancreas,

1019
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 2: and brain due to tracking bullets. The base of his

1020
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 2: skull and left jawbone were fractured. Four bullets and shrapnel

1021
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: were removed from his body. Written in biro on the

1022
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: palm of Reagan's left hand was batteries six point zero.

1023
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: There it is there. It's a pretty church.

1024
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1025
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: Reagan's funeral was held on Monday, September thirty at Saint

1026
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: Brigard's Catholic Church in Kudji. Only about sixty people attended.

1027
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 2: There were probably more undercover police observing from the streets

1028
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 2: around the church.

1029
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 4: So this was the only church that would marry that

1030
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 4: would have a service in.

1031
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 2: Father John Eldridge held a requiem mass. Saint Brigard's was

1032
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 2: the only church that agreed to stage a service for Reagan.

1033
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 2: As Claire Reagan was being helped into the church, she

1034
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 2: shouted at reporters, you bloody crucified him, you bloody robbers.

1035
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: As for Reagan's supposed millions in property in cash, his

1036
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 2: solicitor Michael Seymour told reporters at the funeral that Reagan's

1037
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: will would probably be made public in a few weeks

1038
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 2: after it had gone through probate. Fifty years later, no

1039
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: will has materialized. Wasn't Johnny Reagan the millionaire gangster? Where's

1040
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: the money? In his interview with federal narcotics agents, Reagan's

1041
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 2: former drug associate, John Edward Milligan made a curious statement

1042
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy nine.

1043
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 12: I had a partnership with Reagan at one stage until

1044
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,479
Speaker 12: we fell out over that Queensland affair, and he never

1045
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 12: forgave me after that. He used to go around threatening

1046
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 12: to murder me and arrange statements against me in all

1047
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 12: sorts of weird things, writing newspapers about me.

1048
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 2: And I got a guy called the job of.

1049
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 12: Being Reagan's accountant and wound up very wealthy out of

1050
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 12: his association. He made all what the money that was

1051
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 12: left in the bank. When Reagan was murdered assassinated.

1052
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 2: Stuart John Reagan was cremated. The urn containing his ashes

1053
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 2: was then taken by his loving mother the Colonel and

1054
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 2: brought home to Duke Street, Kensington. She in turn displayed

1055
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 2: the urn in the bedroom of Reagan's son, JP, the

1056
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,439
Speaker 2: boy she had also taken possession of from his mother

1057
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: marg and there the urn stayed until the Colonel died

1058
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight, and still she held onto her

1059
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 2: beloved Johnny. His ashes went in with her, into his

1060
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: mother's arms, into her coffin and plot in Sydney's Rookwood Cemetery.

1061
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 2: One cold windy day, Kelly and I went out to

1062
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: see the grave. This is it.

1063
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 3: That's it. Yeah, Claire Mary Reagan always loved and remembered. Wow,

1064
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 3: that's her.

1065
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 2: Underneath your knees kel It's Stuart John Reagan. Yes, the

1066
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 2: gangster is here. Yes, nobody knows that outside the family.

1067
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 4: In turn with his mother, she had the last laugh right.

1068
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 2: Recently, after years of agitation by Kelly's later Reagan, second

1069
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 2: cousin to murdered gangster Stuart John Reagan, members of Sydney's

1070
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 2: Cold Case homicide Squad drove out to Young to explain

1071
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 2: the status of Reagan's unsolved murder. It was a personal

1072
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 2: and respectful gesture to a family that had waited so

1073
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 2: long for some answers. So, Kelly, the police came and

1074
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 2: visited you in Young Yep.

1075
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 3: So they showed up and we had a fair few

1076
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 3: of the family were there, and we had Inspector Nigel Warren.

1077
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 2: We had The news was as expected. With a fifty

1078
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 2: year cold case murder, police have decided for the moment

1079
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 2: not to actively reopen the investigation. How was everybody feeling

1080
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 2: about the police arriving?

1081
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 3: God, look, Lorraine got the best china out, even got

1082
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:58,719
Speaker 3: out the milk jug and all the good cups and sources.

1083
01:09:58,720 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 3: Mind you, they didn't have a cup of tea.

1084
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 2: Too much time had passed, too many potential witnesses had

1085
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 2: passed away. The chances of any sort of charges being laid,

1086
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 2: let alone a prosecution, were close to zero. Who were

1087
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 2: the killers? As marg told us so aptly, you may

1088
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: as well be playing a game of pick a box? Well,

1089
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 2: what did we learn after years of probing Reagan's life

1090
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 2: and death. We had a lot of rumors that had

1091
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: persisted for decades. We had some criminals who believed the

1092
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 2: police finally decided to rid the world of the deadly

1093
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 2: pest that was Johnny Reagan after he crossed the line

1094
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: and became a child killer. We had police who blamed

1095
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 2: criminals like Paddles Anderson, Lenny McPherson and George Freeman for

1096
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:53,600
Speaker 2: the assassination after he crossed the line and became a

1097
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 2: child killer. We had observers who believed corrupt police and

1098
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 2: gangsters a life came together to acquit the execution, and

1099
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 2: we had a theory that the murder was closer to home,

1100
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,719
Speaker 2: organized as family revenge for the killing of Carlos Scott Huey,

1101
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 2: as Mark z pick a box. To be honest, we

1102
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,719
Speaker 2: never expected to drag the real killers out from beneath

1103
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 2: a fifty year mountain of life, death, lies, red herrings,

1104
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 2: lost documents, scattered paperwork, faulty memories, and innumerable conspiracy theories.

1105
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 2: What we wanted to achieve was a fuller picture of

1106
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 2: this man's life and death, especially for the Reagan family.

1107
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 2: Kelly reflected on our epic adventure into the underworld. What

1108
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 2: do you think this is all meant to Margaret and

1109
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 2: the and the larger Reagan family the journey of the podcast.

1110
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 3: I don't think Mark fully comprehended how much we had

1111
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 3: until we went to Chapel Street. She probably just thought, oh,

1112
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to go out and collect a

1113
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:19,919
Speaker 3: few things. Now it's really got her cogs turning me. Certainly,

1114
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,759
Speaker 3: I am seeing things in a different light because Dad

1115
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 3: was kept so insulated from this. Dad's now saying my

1116
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 3: family knew more. What I think is imagine what he

1117
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 3: could have been if it had a great upbringing and

1118
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 3: run his own businesses like multi multi millionaire. But that

1119
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 3: one thing I found absolutely astounding from the very first

1120
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 3: time I ever spoke to you, was that our family

1121
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 3: always knew that John was involved in the Whiskey Go Go,

1122
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 3: and I thought everybody else did, but clearly nobody else

1123
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 3: did other than a few.

1124
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 2: Kelly still wasn't convinced that Reagan had killed Carlos Scott Huey.

1125
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 2: Was this, no matter how long ago, a bridge too

1126
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 2: far for any family. For marg the pain, the surprises,

1127
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 2: the repercussions of having been partner to one of Australia's

1128
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:18,519
Speaker 2: most notorious gangsters are still being felt. Some of his

1129
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 2: children are still popping out of the woodwork, correct, which

1130
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 2: is incredible to think about. Yep, how does that affect you?

1131
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 9: I don't blame the children, but I won't be involved

1132
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 9: in that I want to be involved. Oh, this is

1133
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 9: Johnny Reagan's child, and you've got to meet them.

1134
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: The answer is no, you removed yourself from that. I

1135
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 2: remember myself from that and never go back.

1136
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 9: No.

1137
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 5: No.

1138
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 4: In a way, it's well, it's unusual and it's extraordinary

1139
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 4: in the respect that he Stuart John Reagan, is still

1140
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 4: impacting your family.

1141
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 9: When you talk about my family, think about the other

1142
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 9: women that they've got children. True, still affecting their family.

1143
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 2: I think you said to me this it just never

1144
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 2: seems to end.

1145
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 9: It doesn't seem to end. So this is what we're

1146
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 9: doing now, is the final thing that I can do.

1147
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 9: Whatever comes of it, what.

1148
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 2: Comes of it the podcast.

1149
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I'm here to try and finalize this so

1150
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 9: we can all get on with our lives. As I

1151
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 9: said before, I didn't meet a beast. I didn't meet

1152
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 9: an ugly man. I didn't meet it. I didn't meet

1153
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 9: that person. That person became alive in my eyes later on.

1154
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 2: Marg might just have to wait a little bit longer

1155
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 2: for this story to end. We said right at the

1156
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 2: start of The Gangster's Ghost that this wasn't just an

1157
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 2: investigation into the life and death of an toorious Lobster.

1158
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 2: It was also the story of a family and how

1159
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 2: it carries the generational stain of a black Sheep, a

1160
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 2: man whose shocking deeds have entered the history books. Along

1161
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 2: with the magician's many victims. The Reagans have to heal too,

1162
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 2: and Shotgun Johnny's oldest daughter, Helen, has come up with

1163
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 2: a way she hopes will make that happen.

1164
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 20: Earn that held my father's ashes, sat in the living

1165
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 20: room for years and years. I'd like to bury it

1166
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 20: for once and for all, but in a peaceful where

1167
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:39,600
Speaker 20: his roots and where he had a good life.

1168
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 2: So you'd like to retrieve he's earned from Rookwood.

1169
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 20: Yes, from my grandmother's gravesite, take him back to his

1170
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 20: hometown and be close to his father and the rest

1171
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:55,680
Speaker 20: of the Reagan clan, because at the end of the day,

1172
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 20: he's a Reagan, you know, and that's where he grew up.

1173
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 20: That was probably some of his days too, you know.

1174
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 2: Is it a case where you'd like to well, can

1175
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:09,759
Speaker 2: I say, rest him away from his mother? And would

1176
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 2: you bury him in alf his father's grave. I mean,

1177
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 2: I've stood at the foot of your grandfather's grave, alf

1178
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 2: In young.

1179
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:18,799
Speaker 9: Would yeah, it'd be lovely.

1180
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:19,760
Speaker 2: It's a lumary spot.

1181
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 9: I mean, I visited it many years ago.

1182
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 20: When I first went there, it was one of the

1183
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 20: first things I asked to do is to see my

1184
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:31,559
Speaker 20: grandfather's grave, and my uncle Lindsey and of the family

1185
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 20: took me there, and it's a beautiful spot, sort of

1186
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:35,719
Speaker 20: on a hill.

1187
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 9: I think it would be just idellic for Dad to

1188
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 9: be there, you know.

1189
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:42,799
Speaker 20: I know for a fact that he would always escape

1190
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 20: down there but never tell the colonel. I think that

1191
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 20: would be nice to them to be together again. It

1192
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 20: would be a homage to my father because I never

1193
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 20: really got the opportunity to say goodbye.

1194
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 2: Did I never got there.

1195
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 20: You know, when I look back at this map, I

1196
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 20: never cried from my father. I never I was too

1197
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 20: young to understand it if he was there one day

1198
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 20: and gone. So this would be my time to actually

1199
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 20: grieve top place and say goodbye, not only for me,

1200
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 20: but you know the readers. You know, we all have

1201
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 20: the same blood in our veins, and you know, I

1202
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 20: think it would be a fitting way to say goodbye.

1203
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 20: And yeah, I think it would be a lot of

1204
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:25,759
Speaker 20: closure for my family.

1205
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 2: Definitely, now seems the right time to go all the

1206
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: way back to the country town of Young to that

1207
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 2: kitchen table on the Slater Reagan farm where the whole

1208
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:44,520
Speaker 2: family first came together at the start of this odyssey.

1209
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,200
Speaker 2: After a great meal and a few drinks, Kelly went

1210
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 2: over to the stereo and pulled out a CD by

1211
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 2: local artist Dave Debs. Years ago, Dave wrote a song

1212
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 2: about alf Reagan, Johnny's father. He had gotten to know

1213
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 2: the old man when he was a teenager and never

1214
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 2: forgot him. Penniless and living in a tin shed on

1215
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:13,599
Speaker 2: the outskirts of town. An emotional Kelly went to press

1216
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 2: play who is this?

1217
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 3: So this is David Debs's song Still a Pioneer off

1218
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 3: his album Lover's Highway. So this is about Uncle Al.

1219
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 8: And I'm not going to bubble.

1220
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 2: Guarantee that I know.

1221
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 3: How embarrassing. Yeah, I know, but I don't do public

1222
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 3: displays of affection.

1223
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 7: And it's very jail, it's very ban jail on the flatball.

1224
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 17: When I was at school on town and you're an

1225
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 17: old man weather Brown outside his car gates.

1226
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:01,600
Speaker 2: He's still a pining.

1227
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:09,640
Speaker 21: I listened to his starvings before I was on and

1228
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 21: a small champion movie like his only friend I covered

1229
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 21: the way.

1230
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 17: He still a piny.

1231
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 2: The Gangster's Ghost is dedicated to the memory of my

1232
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 2: old mate John Shakespeare, friend confidante, brother, a million mind.

1233
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 21: I'm half close stories sharp Goldy's gone by, Still a pony.

1234
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 8: Then I moved to the city and the.

1235
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 22: Word came down and all Elf Reagan was no longer

1236
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 22: I look less good, Telly ho Chang, look see.

1237
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:12,919
Speaker 2: You finger the spine.

1238
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 20: What's a man?

1239
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 22: He walked about a million b.

1240
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,640
Speaker 2: Clos dies shall.

1241
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 20: Please gone on bye.

1242
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 17: Still he's still a pie. It's still APIs still.

1243
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 1: The Gangsters Ghost is a production of The Australian. It's

1244
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 1: written and presented by Senior Writing Mathew Condon and edited

1245
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 1: by Multimedia editor Leat sammagloom Our Executive producer is Me,

1246
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 1: Editorial Director Claire Harvey. Special thanks to Lara Kamenos, Rika Rutliche,

1247
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Jasper Leik, Stephanie Coombs, Sean Callanan Laughlin, Clear,

1248
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 1: Ryan Osland, Amanda Wynn Williams, Christine Kelle, Tarren Blackhurst, Magdalena Zadak,

1249
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: Jisell Boetti, Genevieve Brammel, Lauren Bruce, Sus Rolf and Dick,

1250
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: Kenny Carlson. We can only do journalism like this with

1251
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 1: the support of our subscribers, who hear episodes first and

1252
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 1: get full access to photos, video, news stories and features,

1253
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 1: plus all Australia's best journalism. Twenty four to seven. Join

1254
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 1: us at Gangstersghost dot com dot au.

1255
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 9: Son so

1256
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 3: S