Speaker 1: Oh, Tiffany and core Kai, here we are.
Speaker 2: Good morning, good afternoon.
Speaker 1: Good afternoon. I've got a little bit of deja vu,
Speaker 1: deja vu, deja vu going on. I feel like there's
Speaker 1: something familiar about this little image I'm looking at with
Speaker 1: these three heads on the screen.
Speaker 2: I wasn't here at the beginning of last time, though,
Speaker 2: so I've got.
Speaker 1: No you were, but you did stumble in like a
Speaker 1: piss blow halfway through the party. The first time I've
Speaker 1: started a podcast and then you've come while the podcast
Speaker 1: is going, while the conversations believe you let me in. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: well you're not. You're knocking on the virtual door. You're
Speaker 1: being noisy. Jamie Andrews deadman, Hi mate, how are you get?
Speaker 3: Craig, Anthony and Tiffany and how are you? It's the
Speaker 3: three middle aies.
Speaker 1: That's right, Anne, Andrew and Anthony. I think when there's
Speaker 1: a constantant first like Craig or Tiffany or Jamie, like
Speaker 1: first letter, there's invariably there's a vowel. Second name isn't there.
Speaker 1: It's not not always, but it's pretty common. It's pretty
Speaker 1: comic clear right now, and vice versa. I think about
Speaker 1: I think about some of my friends. Now anyway, let's
Speaker 1: not let's not do a show on that. Let's start
Speaker 1: with Tiff, has your morning been very good?
Speaker 2: But now I'm going to have to go ask chat
Speaker 2: GPT you about the origins of consonants and vows for
Speaker 2: second names. I'm going to be quite obsessed with getting
Speaker 2: an answer on that.
Speaker 1: Well, I just think it sounds better. But then there
Speaker 1: are some like my mum is Mary Margaret Harper, right,
Speaker 1: but that's very old. She's like, well, her mum was Irish,
Speaker 1: and I think that's her name. Was my mum's mom's name?
Speaker 1: I love this was Molly Malone? Is there a more Irish?
Speaker 1: That's my grandmother? Is there a more Irish name in
Speaker 1: the world than Molly Malone?
Speaker 2: Definitely not.
Speaker 1: I'm twelve and a halfcent Irish. Everyone there you go.
Speaker 1: And when I went to Ireland a couple of years ago, Jamie,
Speaker 1: you didn't come for this, but fuck it, get comfortable.
Speaker 1: When I went to fuck it, he's wearing a grand shirt.
Speaker 1: He looks Irish. I have you ever been anywhere that
Speaker 1: you've never been before? So you go for the first
Speaker 1: time and this is going to sound weird, but it
Speaker 1: was so familiar to me.
Speaker 2: I've had friends speak of this. I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not a weirdo, Like I'm a weirdo,
Speaker 1: but not in that like I don't that kind of
Speaker 1: I don't know vibe and all that. I'm like, care
Speaker 1: fuck it. When I went to Ireland, I went to
Speaker 1: this little place called Tullamore to present to speak, which
Speaker 1: is an hour and a half or two hours out
Speaker 1: of Dublin. And I didn't feel like I've been to
Speaker 1: this town before because I knew I hadn't, and not
Speaker 1: like I've met these people before, but I felt part
Speaker 1: of me felt like, oh this this energy, this lang,
Speaker 1: not this language, but this accent, this culture, these people
Speaker 1: are very familiar. Like and I've been to maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know, twenty plus countries. I never had that experience.
Speaker 1: It feels like I'm in a foreign place and I'm
Speaker 1: not with in inverted commas my people right or I'm
Speaker 1: not around people like me. But I felt like I
Speaker 1: belonged there. It was so interesting.
Speaker 2: Do you reckon it changed you? Just the idea of.
Speaker 1: That, I don't know, but I don't know why. But
Speaker 1: I fucking love Irish people. There's something that is and
Speaker 1: I'm generalizing. There's great people in every country and shit
Speaker 1: people in every country. I'm sure, but my experiences were
Speaker 1: like from the first day I got there and people
Speaker 1: were like I got into tullam or I don't know
Speaker 1: whatever day it was, and I was staying in this
Speaker 1: hotel and people like like asking me where I'm staying.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm staying in the hotel. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you want to be standing there, You'll be stand with us,
Speaker 1: like and people are telling me, no, You've got to
Speaker 1: stay in our house, Like these are strangers that happened
Speaker 1: more than twenty times where people went, no, just come
Speaker 1: stay at our joint. I'm like, no, but thank you.
Speaker 1: Just bloody, that's never happened anywhere else like that. Doesn't
Speaker 1: you know you don't, Yeah, maybe it happens to some people.
Speaker 1: But anyway, enough digressing. Jamie Andrews Dedman Welcome officially to
Speaker 1: the U Project for the second time in two days.
Speaker 1: What we can tell our listeners is we did what
Speaker 1: we started yesterday and we had a few interweb issues
Speaker 1: and so this is take two.
Speaker 3: It is thanks thanks again for having me, and yeah,
Speaker 3: yesterday was I think a shitty optus issue on my end,
Speaker 3: not the first time, but hopeful the last.
Speaker 1: Well, it's all good, mate. You know, you know when
Speaker 1: one of your biggest problems or your biggest problem for
Speaker 1: the day's Internet connection, that your life is fucking amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, australed me for at least three minutes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good. Well, I'm glad you got over it, and
Speaker 1: I'm glad you didn't have to do therapy so I
Speaker 1: don't need to read out something off my screen and
Speaker 1: sound like some kind of parrot. Why don't you tell
Speaker 1: our beautiful audience a little bit about the Jamie Stedman story,
Speaker 1: who you are, where you grew up, and then we'll
Speaker 1: do a deep dive because your life is interesting, your
Speaker 1: work is interesting, and there are particular components of your
Speaker 1: life that are very interesting. So you give us the
Speaker 1: as much or as little as you want. Thank you, Harps.
Speaker 3: I born and bred in regional New South I was
Speaker 3: in Orange, have lived all over the place, spent a
Speaker 3: few years overseas, funnily enough, in Ireland here and there.
Speaker 3: My grandmother's paternal grandmother's last nme was Green, so it's
Speaker 3: for shits and gigs. I have done so many jobs
Speaker 3: it's kind of hard to list, but have found myself
Speaker 3: now as the men's behavior change facilitator in the domestic
Speaker 3: violence space, so basically perpetrated as a DV. Come across
Speaker 3: my desk and we chat about ways for them to
Speaker 3: shift their behavior.
Speaker 1: You know, life hasn't always been simple made.
Speaker 3: I grew up in a better say, a violent house,
Speaker 3: drug affected where drugs were the order of the day,
Speaker 3: in electricity and food not so much. Yeah, it wasn't
Speaker 3: always like that, I must say. That was after my
Speaker 3: dad had left when I was about six, My ability
Speaker 3: to remember the exact days and dates kind of goes away.
Speaker 3: And having since research, apparently that's a trauma thing. So
Speaker 3: I didn't know I was traumatized till someone said, hey,
Speaker 3: that is the thing, and I was like, oh.
Speaker 1: You're right, So you know I was.
Speaker 3: I went from burn, a happy, go lucky six year
Speaker 3: old to effectively burn in charge of raising my ever
Speaker 3: growing number of siblings half siblings to my very violent stepfather.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: A few years ago I was I was a prison
Speaker 3: officer for quite some time and got quite ill, randomly
Speaker 3: ended up in a coma for three months and the
Speaker 3: first thing I thought of when they woke me was
Speaker 3: I think I missed my best mate's fortieth birthday cruise.
Speaker 1: As you do, Let's let's lean into a few of
Speaker 1: those things. Okay, so we'll come back to the coma,
Speaker 1: but let's start with because now you work interestingly like
Speaker 1: you grew up in a violent household, with a violent
Speaker 1: person in your house who was, let's be honest, probably
Speaker 1: not a fucking great human. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: And and now you are working with people who were
Speaker 1: kind of like your stepdad, what's like, violent, abusive, intimidating,
Speaker 1: or people who at least have been that and are
Speaker 1: trying to be better. How did that? How did that
Speaker 1: shape the way that you saw the world and the
Speaker 1: way that you navigated the world, having to go home
Speaker 1: from school or your friend's house aware and going into
Speaker 1: that very volatile, very dangerous and very I would imagine,
Speaker 1: terrifying environment.
Speaker 3: It's funny as humans, how very quickly we can pick
Speaker 3: up and learn from just the way someone walks in
Speaker 3: the house, the way they talk, the way they carry themselves,
Speaker 3: how they dressed. Like I knew really quickly how to
Speaker 3: read this guy and how to just get the hell
Speaker 3: out of the house. And of course this was lash
Speaker 3: yeah late seven, his early eighties sort of thing. So
Speaker 3: leaving the house was nothing, you just off you go.
Speaker 3: You'd go and find shit to do and stumble your
Speaker 3: way across something cool to look at for a little
Speaker 3: while until such time as you needed to go home
Speaker 3: and try and point.
Speaker 1: How it shaped me as an adult. I guess is.
Speaker 3: That empathy for those both dealing going through it and
Speaker 3: dealing with it. And as you know have watching principle
Speaker 3: for men's behavior changes to is we keeping women and
Speaker 3: children safe through the behavior change of men? This is
Speaker 3: a men's problem. Yeah, the space that I work in predominantly,
Speaker 3: and you know, at the end of the day, if
Speaker 3: we can just shift one thought, one time, one action,
Speaker 3: one moment where they just halt for a sect, we
Speaker 3: potentially a laugh.
Speaker 1: So yes, yes, pretty big.
Speaker 3: Watching your mum get I was in the car when
Speaker 3: I was I want to say eight, I reckon, yeah,
Speaker 3: and she got hit. She was sitting in the console
Speaker 3: center console on the front seat because he had a
Speaker 3: mate sitting on the other side, and this was before
Speaker 3: seatbelts were Yeah, that's stuff. She got hit so hard
Speaker 3: she ended up in the back suait wow, And as
Speaker 3: an eight year old, I grabbed master father by the
Speaker 3: hair and screamed at him to stop doing it, Like
Speaker 3: what the hell was I thinking? This was exceriment, just
Speaker 3: that protective instinct and then.
Speaker 1: What did he do to you?
Speaker 3: Nothing to me in that moment, but you know later
Speaker 3: on it was pretty mandatory for him to hold us
Speaker 3: over a well and threaten to drop us in some gigs.
Speaker 1: So so he would hold you what you would just
Speaker 1: lift you over the top, so you're actually hanging by
Speaker 1: the ankle yep and side down. This grown ass man
Speaker 1: would hold a child over an ankle over a well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for for for anything we got, We got in trouble
Speaker 1: for years and too much to all the paper.
Speaker 3: So and you know, you know he's not going to
Speaker 3: drop in, right, but you also don't because hugely, hugely
Speaker 3: volatile human.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, how many brothers, sisters, step brothers, sisters, how
Speaker 1: many kids were in the family at that stage. It
Speaker 1: was my brother and my sister.
Speaker 3: And she had been born to him when my brother
Speaker 3: was with my dad, and you know, he doated on
Speaker 3: her hand and foot, so did I. That was she was,
Speaker 3: you know, she looked up to me because we were
Speaker 3: effectively in charge of raising her at that stage.
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, and how did your mum navigate all
Speaker 1: of that? Because your mom's just this victim for years
Speaker 1: at the hands of this.
Speaker 3: Perpetrator. It's a hard thing, mate, because oh got me, Craig. Sorry,
Speaker 3: s all right, mate.
Speaker 1: She was an amazing mom. Yeah, oh ship till the mate.
Speaker 1: This is why we have these chats. That's why it's real.
Speaker 1: She just.
Speaker 3: It was her burden to carriage. Yeah, you know, she
Speaker 3: knew it wasn't ideal. She kept us alive as best
Speaker 3: she could, but women just didn't. How did they fucking
Speaker 3: get out, Craig. It was still legal to hit your
Speaker 3: wife at that stage. We hadn't changed the law yet,
Speaker 3: you know, So how do you how do you?
Speaker 1: What a what? What the fuck message are we sending
Speaker 1: out to those people? Yeah? You know. So mum came
Speaker 1: from a big Italian family.
Speaker 3: She moved around because she was embarrassed of where she'd
Speaker 3: ended up, and that was she just protected us the
Speaker 3: very best way she could, which was standing in front
Speaker 3: of you.
Speaker 1: What an amazing brave mum. Dude, No wonder that. I
Speaker 1: don't think I would have come through that as well
Speaker 1: as you've come through that, because I couldn't if I
Speaker 1: had a dad who'd done that. I don't know what.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, you like to think you
Speaker 1: do this and that I'll probably do fucking nothing. I'd
Speaker 1: probably be in therapy for my whole life. But who knows.
Speaker 1: But I think that that's what I am doing, Craig.
Speaker 3: I think that's exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was thinking like that you
Speaker 1: working with blokes that were basically that are basically a
Speaker 1: version of what you grew up in the middle of.
Speaker 1: Is that apart from trying to get them to change
Speaker 1: and change their behavior and to in turn protect our
Speaker 1: beautiful moms and sisters and wives and whatever. Yeah? Is
Speaker 1: that part of the recovery for you? The therapy for you? Hugely? Yeah? Massive,
Speaker 1: It's the opportunity is not lost on me to.
Speaker 3: Impress on those guys the urgency of change and how
Speaker 3: easy it actually is to just try something a little
Speaker 3: bit different.
Speaker 1: Where did they without giving away any info that you
Speaker 1: can't mate, how does it work?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: How did people get court bloody ordered to come see you?
Speaker 1: Do they? Like? I want to know because to me,
Speaker 1: I'm and I'm sure I'm wrong, but I've I've like
Speaker 1: I've worked, you know, I've done stuff in prisons. I've
Speaker 1: spoken in quite a few prisons, and I've worked in
Speaker 1: rehab an addiction with people that are court ordered you know,
Speaker 1: treatment and and a lot of them are not too
Speaker 1: fucking voluntary. You know, they're there because they have to be.
Speaker 1: I don't see a whole lot of remorse, you know.
Speaker 3: Interestingly, not to navigate that well, it's that discussion, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's that accountability.
Speaker 3: There are there are some guys that are court mandated
Speaker 3: to be but lots few of them than you actually
Speaker 3: would think. Most of them are referred slash recommended, so
Speaker 3: their loyers will get them involved because it looks good
Speaker 3: at court, let's be honest.
Speaker 1: But we also don't provide them any love in that space.
Speaker 3: There is absolutely no guarantee that completing this course will
Speaker 3: mean anything. Yes, And that's kind of the most important
Speaker 3: part that we speak about when it comes to letters
Speaker 3: for court of support and all this sort of stuff, which.
Speaker 1: We don't do a lot of. I don't. I mean
Speaker 1: I will, but it's very very black and white.
Speaker 3: As like Joe Bloggs has been here three times, has
Speaker 3: engaged on.
Speaker 1: Those dates at this time. Hmm.
Speaker 3: Literally, it doesn't say because you know, just because it
Speaker 3: looks like he's doing well from my perspective, it doesn't
Speaker 3: mean shit once he leaves you.
Speaker 1: I have a sense when I'm talking to people who
Speaker 1: you know, this is very different. Well, it's not totally different.
Speaker 1: It's in the same space in that like people come
Speaker 1: to me to talk or to be coached or mentored
Speaker 1: or whatever because they want to change, right. There's something
Speaker 1: about their habits or their behavior, or their thinking or
Speaker 1: the way they do life. They want to change, right,
Speaker 1: And obviously it's not in the space you're in, but
Speaker 1: it's still it's people are turning up because they want
Speaker 1: to well they say they want to change, yes, But
Speaker 1: when I sit down with people sometimes I'm like some
Speaker 1: not not a huge percentage, and I'm like, you do
Speaker 1: you don't want to change. You like the idea of change,
Speaker 1: but you don't want to do the work of change,
Speaker 1: Like you want to sit with Craig Harper and talk.
Speaker 1: That's what you want, and you want to go I
Speaker 1: went and spoke with this bloke or whatever. And sometimes
Speaker 1: I not not A few times, like a lot of
Speaker 1: times I'll see somebody and I go, there's zero I
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but to me, there's zero chance that
Speaker 1: this person is actually going to leave this chat, turn
Speaker 1: their life around, turn their behaviors around, and do the
Speaker 1: work like you must. You must deal with that on
Speaker 1: a regular.
Speaker 3: Oh, the bullshit radar is pretty strong, and I make
Speaker 3: no bones about it.
Speaker 1: And I.
Speaker 3: Myself and my colleague where we operate very similar and
Speaker 3: her voice is even more important than mine in this space.
Speaker 3: But we get the guys group ready, is how we
Speaker 3: turn it. And eventually you know who's hanging around to
Speaker 3: tick a box and who isn't. And at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, mate, we can't kick them out just
Speaker 3: because they're ticking a box because what if that one
Speaker 3: next week is where they shift into change.
Speaker 1: So like the term that you use or that I guess,
Speaker 1: like the almost like the job description is Men's behavior
Speaker 1: change facilitator or whatever. Right to me, it's almost like
Speaker 1: I think before the behavior change needs to come thinking
Speaker 1: change because they're thinking that it's you know, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: the behaviors are just a consequence of how that person
Speaker 1: thinks and chooses, right, And I know that it's all,
Speaker 1: it's just semantics here, But like, if somebody thinks a
Speaker 1: certain way, how do you I know, you can't make
Speaker 1: them think differently or make them be different, but how
Speaker 1: do you influence them in a way where you're as
Speaker 1: much as is possible, Jamie influencing their behavior?
Speaker 3: Moving forwards spoke I listened to quite a bit Harps,
Speaker 3: and he has said a few things that have really
Speaker 3: resonated with me over the years. And the first one
Speaker 3: is always be curious. And so someone will mention to
Speaker 3: me a thought process or where and I just say,
Speaker 3: help me understand where that comes from? What were you
Speaker 3: thinking prior to that? Where were you emotionally? What does
Speaker 3: that look like? What you been doing leading up to it? Like,
Speaker 3: you know, we're talking a lot about the potential for
Speaker 3: drug taking and drinking and drinking huge in this space,
Speaker 3: and so in those lead ups we then start talking
Speaker 3: about what was she saying to you? What were you hearing?
Speaker 3: Kause often the two are very different, and it just
Speaker 3: leads us down a pathway of an opportunity to think differently.
Speaker 3: How do you think you might do this next time?
Speaker 3: What might that look like? And you do this next time?
Speaker 3: Because you know arguments are part and parcel of relationships,
Speaker 3: so so differences of opinion and thought and.
Speaker 1: All this sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: So it's it's making sure that people are just being
Speaker 3: prepared to respond rather than react. Remember that there's that space,
Speaker 3: that opportunity.
Speaker 1: I would imagine. I would imagine that like with any
Speaker 1: change process. You know, it's like, how do you get
Speaker 1: in shape? While well, we don't all eat the same
Speaker 1: food and we don't all do the same workout. How
Speaker 1: do we change your body? How do we medicate a
Speaker 1: particular medical condition? You know, it's like, well, there's no
Speaker 1: like it depends like there are a lot of variables.
Speaker 1: And while the while the common theme is domestic violence,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could have ten different conversations about the
Speaker 1: same issue with ten different people trying to get the
Speaker 1: best outcome.
Speaker 3: So so much mate, the differences in backgrounds, in biases,
Speaker 3: and cultural differences in belief systems, prejudices. It's a tricky
Speaker 3: space to navigate. But we simply focus on the behavior,
Speaker 3: not the human as much as humanly possible. Obviously, you
Speaker 3: know where we've made these guys look at.
Speaker 1: It's empowerment too.
Speaker 3: Perhaps we want those guys to understand that they're allowed
Speaker 3: to be different, that the fucking man box isn't always
Speaker 3: the best place to operate from, that you can step
Speaker 3: outside of it quite comfortably and just do something different
Speaker 3: to what you were taught, what you believe, what you think.
Speaker 1: And also I guess the man box doesn't have to
Speaker 1: look like what they think, like I think I'm a man,
Speaker 1: but it never dawns on meta fucking hit a woman,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And you know we go
Speaker 1: so far beyond just that physical stuff, mate.
Speaker 3: One of my most heartbreaking things if I hear from women,
Speaker 3: there's two sentences that I that just break me in half.
Speaker 3: And the first one is I wish you'd hit me
Speaker 3: because it'll be easy to deal with, so that coercive control.
Speaker 1: Wow, So they'd rather get hit because it's tangible.
Speaker 3: Yes, And then the next one is I wish i'd
Speaker 3: stayed with him, My life would be easier. What are
Speaker 3: we fucking doing to people where we can't support women
Speaker 3: enough now that they're comfortable enough to leave? And I
Speaker 3: would say to those blokes often, I want you to
Speaker 3: love people so hard that they feel free to to
Speaker 3: get fucked and walk out the door safely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, it's like love is a
Speaker 1: oh fuck, don't start me on the love conversation. Love
Speaker 1: is fucking complicated, like love is actually to me anyway.
Speaker 1: This is my very probably naive take, but this is
Speaker 1: how I feel like. And I'm a selfish fuck sometimes
Speaker 1: and I don't walk my own talk. Put up my hand.
Speaker 1: But like, love is wanting the best thing for somebody else,
Speaker 1: even if it's maybe momentarily the worst thing for you.
Speaker 3: You know, that's that's the perfect answer, I reckon harps.
Speaker 1: Love is for itom yeah yeah, and that edom to love,
Speaker 1: to be loved, and to leave if you need to
Speaker 1: tell me about I don't know if you have data
Speaker 1: or stats on this, but what is the what are
Speaker 1: the numbers around, or what is the evidence around the
Speaker 1: relationship between domestic violence and booze? Is most domestic violence?
Speaker 1: Does most of it involve booze? Half of it?
Speaker 3: Some of it numbers? There are some numbers, nothing that
Speaker 3: I can think of off the top of my head.
Speaker 3: All I can tell you is I've got a list
Speaker 3: of currently sixty plus blokes, fifty five of which would
Speaker 3: be our coal related incidences.
Speaker 1: Right, So we're looking at like over ninety percent have
Speaker 1: got to do with booze. And what about I mean,
Speaker 1: I know I'm asking. By the way, everyone, everything we're
Speaker 1: saying today, none of it is a recommendation or a prescription.
Speaker 1: This is just Harps and Jamie and periodically tiff Ti
Speaker 1: if I know you're passionate about this, so feel free
Speaker 1: to jump in ask a question or add what about
Speaker 1: people that are just sociopaths, mate psychopaths, charismatic charming psychopaths
Speaker 1: who just know how to be, They know how to play,
Speaker 1: they know how to play people they know how to
Speaker 1: because some people who do this are also charismatic, charming,
Speaker 1: and depending on the setting, quite likable and often good looking,
Speaker 1: like fucking terrible humans.
Speaker 3: I get, I earn an ex prison officer, I can
Speaker 3: sense the manipulation quite quickly. But these most men in
Speaker 3: this space are master manipulators. They have been doing it
Speaker 3: for so so long that it's outrageous that finally been caught,
Speaker 3: so to speak, or whatever the case may be. And
Speaker 3: when they come in here, there's a level of that
Speaker 3: that that jumps out at your pretty quick. The you know,
Speaker 3: the charm, and I actually get on with most of
Speaker 3: these guys quite easily. They're not not inviting them around
Speaker 3: for a barbecue, but you know that they're just blokes
Speaker 3: at the end of the day. Who who I get
Speaker 3: an opportunity to talk to, pull them apart, challenge them
Speaker 3: and hopefully get them to just use one of the tools,
Speaker 3: just take one for a test run and see if
Speaker 3: it works.
Speaker 1: Do you ever do you ever have a moment with
Speaker 1: somebody where it's like there's a there's a real genuine breakthrough,
Speaker 1: not just some kind of not lip service. You know,
Speaker 1: there's not there's tears, there's fucking there's a breakdown, and
Speaker 1: you know, well as much as you can know, you're like, no,
Speaker 1: this is this is there's something going on here which
Speaker 1: is good. You can you can almost it's almost a vibe.
Speaker 3: You know when you've you know, when you've broken through
Speaker 3: the wall. I've got a cool little story. And this
Speaker 3: is not going to mean a lot to a lot
Speaker 3: of people from a change perspective, But I've got a
Speaker 3: young Aboriginal fellaw in our group, and he's quiet. He's
Speaker 3: not had any male role models whatsoever. He's only a
Speaker 3: young fella. He's seemingly quite desperate to shift Every now
Speaker 3: and again, he speaks up and it's the most amazing
Speaker 3: thing that drops out of you that you can get.
Speaker 3: A couple of weeks ago, it's bucketing rains. It was
Speaker 3: still kind of you know, winter ishan orange and orange
Speaker 3: is a cold place.
Speaker 1: This guy had been.
Speaker 3: Arguing raowing was his term with his girl all day,
Speaker 3: going at it all day, low socio economic chat, good, good, good.
Speaker 3: Young fellow just doesn't know any better. And he walked
Speaker 3: all the way down here in the rain. So when
Speaker 3: he come in literally to Tommy, he couldn't do group
Speaker 3: because he wasn't feeling very good. We had to have
Speaker 3: a suicide discussion and all this sort of stuff as well.
Speaker 1: This is all while I'm trying to run group or
Speaker 1: get group started.
Speaker 3: Literally, so he could come down and Tommy couldn't do group,
Speaker 3: so he could walk home again. And that was him
Speaker 3: leaving to keep her safe. Wow, And it's not an
Speaker 3: option he'd ever considered using previously. Right, it's a that
Speaker 3: is a massive, massive breakthrough, and not a lot of
Speaker 3: people are going to understand how big a deal that is,
Speaker 3: but for him it's so far removed from his normal.
Speaker 3: I was so impressed, so proud, so just wrapped in
Speaker 3: in that because change looks different to everyone.
Speaker 1: How many people Jamie who perpetrayed domestic violence grew up
Speaker 1: in it? Is it the greater percentage? Like we don't
Speaker 1: generally get that stat, Craig. We it comes out.
Speaker 3: As part of the discussion more or less than the
Speaker 3: one on one stuff for a lot of them.
Speaker 1: But you're both surprised how few really?
Speaker 3: That actually concerns me, to be honest, because now to
Speaker 3: behavior you've chosen instead of one you actually grew up with, which.
Speaker 1: Is is there more of it? Less of it? The
Speaker 1: same have we got? Is there just more a awareness
Speaker 1: and attention which there should be.
Speaker 3: I think all of the above made I think that
Speaker 3: with women in particular, are finally starting to understand what
Speaker 3: a dovair relationship is from an empowerment perspective, which is great,
Speaker 3: and of course as they start to speak up, then
Speaker 3: we start to act hopefully, and of course unfortunately, if
Speaker 3: you look what's the numbers today, ninety three women ninety
Speaker 3: three made it went up one overnight, So we're at
Speaker 3: one point nine per week, nearly two women a week
Speaker 3: being killed while someone they know, someone they love, someone
Speaker 3: they're supposed.
Speaker 1: To be in love with. Them.
Speaker 3: Now, this is a horrific stat and it keeps going up,
Speaker 3: and unfortunately, I think, and I don't know, people will
Speaker 3: push back and get cranky. But the more the women
Speaker 3: speak up, the more the douchebags are going to fucking
Speaker 3: do their because now they're being challenged, Now they're being embarrassed,
Speaker 3: now they're being shamed.
Speaker 1: So I mean again, remember everyone, this is I'm genuinely
Speaker 1: It's not an area I know a lot about. I'm
Speaker 1: curious and so if my questions are not the best questions,
Speaker 1: it's because I'm kind of finding my way. I feel
Speaker 1: like it's a catch twenty two for ladies because if
Speaker 1: they speak up, they get in trouble. If they don't
Speaker 1: speak up, their life, shit do they do they? I
Speaker 1: feel like you've almost got to create your own escape
Speaker 1: plan and then just push the button like wolf. Some
Speaker 1: women anyway, maybe not all, But.
Speaker 3: I don't want to speak to how difficult, how crazy
Speaker 3: it must be toleleief under that fucking number. I'll be
Speaker 3: walking around on eggshells to finally speak out until the
Speaker 3: bloke this isn't how you treat people or whatever, and
Speaker 3: then for them to for their actions to then increase
Speaker 3: rather than decrease what. You know, how how horrifically difficult
Speaker 3: that must be for women. You know, they're trying to
Speaker 3: keep their kids safe, they're trying to put food on
Speaker 3: the table. The blokes withholding money or he spent it
Speaker 3: all on his fucking flash motorbike or just so much
Speaker 3: genuine douchebaggery out there that it's it's mind blowing, and
Speaker 3: I you know, it may be a matter of time.
Speaker 3: There's all those blugs forgetting that women give birth to us,
Speaker 3: keep treating the mark us, and that's going to stop.
Speaker 1: I should have asked you this before. But who do
Speaker 1: you work for? Like, who pays for all this? It's
Speaker 1: an n g O.
Speaker 3: I don't want to because it's a bit too opinionated,
Speaker 3: so I don't want them to getting all sad. The
Speaker 3: toughest part about all this made is the regulation and
Speaker 3: the stuff we have to do to just tick boxes
Speaker 3: to keep getting paid. The government says, oh, we're going
Speaker 3: to give you heaps of money, but we don't fucking
Speaker 3: see any of it, and it's stupid. I've got there's
Speaker 3: literally three of us in my team. I've got six.
Speaker 3: There's sixty five blokes. We are trying to put through
Speaker 3: groups that happen every ten weeks. I could run a
Speaker 3: group every night, and that's unfortunates that in.
Speaker 1: And of itself, right, M.
Speaker 3: But the two girls in the team, you know, my coacilitator,
Speaker 3: her voice is huge in this space. It's when she speaks,
Speaker 3: there's a there's a lot of modeling that has to
Speaker 3: go on, Like I have to make sure I give
Speaker 3: her the room and I give.
Speaker 1: Her the respect, and I give her the space. And
Speaker 1: because the.
Speaker 3: Blokes think like some think less of women, and that's
Speaker 3: just how I am. So if I can be, I
Speaker 3: need to model the behavior I believe in make sure
Speaker 3: I'm practicing all that. And my other colleague, in my mind,
Speaker 3: she's got the hardest job. She is what we call
Speaker 3: the family safety worker. So it's her job to be
Speaker 3: ringing the ex partners current partners and offer them support
Speaker 3: and you know whatever that looks like even an escape
Speaker 3: plane if if the risk is severe enough. So what
Speaker 3: she does is phenomenal, mate, And you know, all on
Speaker 3: a shoestring, as pretty much everyone does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think any of you are in it
Speaker 1: for the doughmate, No, No, I would do it for free. Harps.
Speaker 1: Just don't tell him I said that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and what about what about you, like you're
Speaker 4: dealing with I know that your intentions are good and
Speaker 4: you're doing good work, but it's a it's an almost
Speaker 4: overwhelming challenge, right because, like you said, you could be
Speaker 4: doing way more stuff, but you don't have the manpower.
Speaker 1: The resources. How do you because I feel there's probably
Speaker 1: a bit of PTSD just you know, into your back
Speaker 1: as you navigate this, how do you? And then when
Speaker 1: I talk to your mum, clearly that's all very close
Speaker 1: to the surface and raw. How do you manage you?
Speaker 1: How do you? How do you? You know, we all
Speaker 1: have our peaks and trust, but how do you? How
Speaker 1: do you protect you while still doing what you need
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 3: It's not always easy, mate. Sometimes I'm not a great dad.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'm not a great friend or a great partner.
Speaker 3: But what I've done is empower those closest to me
Speaker 3: to call me out because sometimes I don't see it.
Speaker 3: So yeah, given permission to say, hey, this is different
Speaker 3: to your normal.
Speaker 1: The other stuff is paying attention to what I call
Speaker 1: burnon circle.
Speaker 3: I hate when people say I'm on path because path
Speaker 3: has like a starting point and the finish point.
Speaker 1: So I like it. Yeah, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 3: I so the gym coffee connection my big three if
Speaker 3: any of those slipped for too long.
Speaker 1: So so what about I'm thinking about the ability some
Speaker 1: men have to have like bullshitty man conversations that are
Speaker 1: not very uplifting for women. What if you find yourself
Speaker 1: you know where some guys are And by the way,
Speaker 1: I think that goes both ways. I've had a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations with wives who run their husbands down in
Speaker 1: the gym, but we're not talking about that. That's a
Speaker 1: different thing.
Speaker 3: So that is a different thing I want to I
Speaker 3: want to touch on that hYP So someone having a
Speaker 3: conversation with you and running their partner down, that's a
Speaker 3: connection thing. That's freedom, that is. But me and you're
Speaker 3: sitting at the pub bonding by.
Speaker 1: Othering women, Yeah, is kind of disgusting. Shit.
Speaker 3: Yes, have I done it, absolutely because I'm old and
Speaker 3: it was a normal thing to do.
Speaker 1: Once upon a time.
Speaker 3: But for whatever reason, I grew up and I can
Speaker 3: actually remember the exact moment a bloke simply didn't indulge
Speaker 3: in the bullshit that was going on at the table,
Speaker 3: and I noticed, and I asked him any.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: And so that's my big challenge for all blokes right
Speaker 3: now is I don't expect you to call out the
Speaker 3: bullshit if you're not comfortable enough to do it right,
Speaker 3: because it might be you a punch in the mouth.
Speaker 1: Not everyone wants one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but your other obligation is very simple. You simply
Speaker 3: have to do nothing. Just don't indulge. If you're comfortable enough,
Speaker 3: turn you back, get up and walk away, because what
Speaker 3: you're doing in that moment is saying to the other
Speaker 3: guys at the table, I'm not doing this shit. And
Speaker 3: someone in there is watching you, somebody's going to come and.
Speaker 1: Question you, and there's an opportunity for growth and empowerment. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how we have these cool conversations. I just
Speaker 3: get in this space. Harp's. One of the most frustrating
Speaker 3: thing I see is when I go to rallies or gatherings,
Speaker 3: it's always women, but men and ones telling me that
Speaker 3: they support this stuff, that they love their women.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, well, where the fuck are you?
Speaker 3: Yes, you don't have to do anything, just go to
Speaker 3: the thing out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, a little bit so foxy, No, No, I
Speaker 1: fucking love it. Mate, Well, clearly, it's like this is
Speaker 1: your passion and your purpose, and so if you weren't
Speaker 1: this emotional, I would be disappointed or I would be surprised,
Speaker 1: right because this is but now anyway, maybe forever, but
Speaker 1: this is why you're here, it seems. Is there are
Speaker 1: there any like programs that are research based, evidence based,
Speaker 1: like programs designed and implemented to deal with, you know,
Speaker 1: domestic violence, Like here's here's a program that's been designed
Speaker 1: to take men through this or is that not available.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's necessarily any better than what you do,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying it's like with every other fucking thing,
Speaker 1: we've got some evidence based kind of protocol or operating
Speaker 1: system or treatment option or strategy to deal with these things.
Speaker 1: What about this?
Speaker 3: Yes, in the short term, but once again, the problem
Speaker 3: with challenging humans to change is lip service.
Speaker 1: Right. The evidence based stuff is that if you adopt this,
Speaker 1: we know it will work.
Speaker 3: Yes, right, same as push ups. If you stop watching
Speaker 3: others do them, you'll get better at it if you.
Speaker 1: Do If you start doing them, Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 3: So, like all things, unless you're actually willing to implement
Speaker 3: and lean into the hard stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, change just won't happen. Yeah. So you've got lots
Speaker 1: of people listening. Now, you've got lots of men, You've
Speaker 1: got lots of wo And what do people? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't prep you for this, and it doesn't need
Speaker 1: to be particularly elegant or eloquent. What do you? Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, get your eloquent on. If you could see him,
Speaker 1: everybody's about as eloquence as me. So what do you
Speaker 1: what would you love to share with people? Because there
Speaker 1: are going to be people listening to this who are
Speaker 1: like this is maybe hopefully there's a few a few
Speaker 1: men who maybe need to hear this and recognize a
Speaker 1: little bit of themselves in what you're saying and need
Speaker 1: to go fuck, I need to pull my head in
Speaker 1: and watch myself or maybe own up and step up.
Speaker 1: Or there might be women that need support or help, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you want to say to both of those groups?
Speaker 3: The biggest thing is to get yourself educated in what
Speaker 3: abuse constitutes, what constitutes abuse?
Speaker 1: So there are there's a list halps.
Speaker 3: I can promise you if I spoke one on one
Speaker 3: with every man in my town, most of them would
Speaker 3: look at this list. At some days and go shit.
Speaker 3: I am guilty of some of these right now. The
Speaker 3: other side of that coin, of course, is the women
Speaker 3: not knowing that, fluck me, I'm actually in this relationship.
Speaker 3: So it would be simply educating yourself and be willing
Speaker 3: to have those discussions with each other. Of the issues
Speaker 3: we face as couples is through poor communication, through difficult
Speaker 3: conversations had well and just scheduling that in how's to day?
Speaker 3: What's going on for you? What's happening in your world?
Speaker 3: You know, asking the kids what went well today? What
Speaker 3: can we do better next time? What do you need
Speaker 3: from me as a dad? Like actually fucking empower them
Speaker 3: to put you in their lives now. I hate the
Speaker 3: fact that I work in the harm minimization space. I
Speaker 3: want to work in harm prevention, and I would imagine
Speaker 3: that most people in this environment want to. We need
Speaker 3: to be having really tough conversations with ten eleven to
Speaker 3: twelve year old kids. Yeah, we need to show them.
Speaker 3: Hey girls, here's a list of ship for you never
Speaker 3: to put up with. Hey boys, here's a list of
Speaker 3: stuff you need to never do. Yes, guess what those
Speaker 3: lists look exactly.
Speaker 1: I wonder that that I've never thought of that, Like,
Speaker 1: I've never thought of opening that door on young young
Speaker 1: women or young girls and young boys. And because it
Speaker 1: seems like, oh, this is not something that children need
Speaker 1: to learn about. Absolutely, maybe they do. Maybe the language halts.
Speaker 1: All of this stuff is in the language, mate.
Speaker 3: The more we allow our little boys to talk shit
Speaker 3: about girls, yeah, the more we don't say.
Speaker 1: Hey, that's not how you do this. Yeah, the more
Speaker 1: we don't pull them up.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a there's a few pretty powerful little
Speaker 3: programs that are run in schools, but they kind of
Speaker 3: bounce around the subject.
Speaker 1: Right, kids are tougher and.
Speaker 3: More able to deal with this ship than ever before
Speaker 3: at any other time on this planet. Right, they know
Speaker 3: some stuff. Most of them are probably doing things that
Speaker 3: I'd be afraid to try. Yeah, But if we don't,
Speaker 3: if we don't empower them now to have those hard
Speaker 3: conversations to recognize right and wrong, then my job is just.
Speaker 1: Going to keep getting harder and harder. And I want that.
Speaker 1: I've got a tricky I've got a tricky question for
Speaker 1: you again. So another one. So I've got a hypothetical.
Speaker 1: By the way, everyone, this is a hypothetical. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about someone that don't try and figure it out. Okay.
Speaker 1: So I know a couple and from the outside looking
Speaker 1: and it's kind of, you know, works like there's this
Speaker 1: public version of the relationship which is okay, but behind
Speaker 1: closed doors that's not the case at all. And the
Speaker 1: dude is very controlling and very strong and very you
Speaker 1: know whatever fill in the blank, and the female is
Speaker 1: the opposite of that. And I'm an outside observer and
Speaker 1: I know that if I try to do anything that
Speaker 1: won't work well, if I try to talk to him,
Speaker 1: he'll deny it, potentially get aggressive. And I know there's
Speaker 1: no simple answer to this, but I think all of
Speaker 1: us probably know someone or someone's where there's a version
Speaker 1: of that going on. What like you don't want to
Speaker 1: do nothing, but you don't want to throw a match
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 3: This is a really, really tough situation and I can't
Speaker 3: speak for everyone. What I would do is get educated,
Speaker 3: go speak to there's DVO specialists at the place, there's
Speaker 3: relationship advice you can get online through Relationships Australia. Know
Speaker 3: what you can do, what you can't do, what you
Speaker 3: can and can't get away with.
Speaker 1: There are you know for those two that might be
Speaker 1: how they do life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it does not mean that you can't raise
Speaker 3: a question and hey, you have to be prepared to
Speaker 3: lose a friend to save a life.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, wow. If people want to get if
Speaker 1: people want to support this kind of work or even
Speaker 1: do this kind of work, which is it's tough work,
Speaker 1: or people want to support you, or how do people
Speaker 1: how do people get involved? If somebody's got an interest
Speaker 1: in whatever this, they've got a psych background or a
Speaker 1: counseling back ground, or they want to do some kind
Speaker 1: of certification where they can get involved and work in
Speaker 1: their space and help. I mean, this is a multifaceted issue.
Speaker 1: This is not a three step solution, and this is
Speaker 1: you know, there are so many parts to this, so
Speaker 1: there's no quick fix. But what do we need? Who
Speaker 1: do we need? Apart from funding which is the obvious one,
Speaker 1: but can people get involved to do what you do?
Speaker 1: I still don't know how I landed here, HAPs, so
Speaker 1: that's a tough question. I think.
Speaker 3: There's an organization called MTV Note of Violence and they
Speaker 3: are our overarching body, and that would be the first
Speaker 3: step I would expect. And there are unfortunately a lot
Speaker 3: of opportunities to work in the domestic violence space variously
Speaker 3: currently in this country, where going through what we call
Speaker 3: sixteen days of activism, and of course, as I said previously,
Speaker 3: just fucking show up, yeah, talking about it, start doing it.
Speaker 1: Waste no more time talking about what a good man is.
Speaker 1: We won. I was sharing this. I think I was
Speaker 1: sharing with Tiff and some I don't know. I do
Speaker 1: a lot of podcasts, mine and others, so some weeks
Speaker 1: I do like ten or eleven podcasts, including seven of
Speaker 1: my own. But I think I was talking to you yesterday, Tiff,
Speaker 1: or the day before. A couple of months ago, I
Speaker 1: ran a workshop in Hampton, Mate, just down the road,
Speaker 1: and it was a small group. And I apologize to
Speaker 1: my listeners who heard this story. But one of the
Speaker 1: ladies in the group it was five hours, but one
Speaker 1: of the ladies in the group, you know, we're all
Speaker 1: kind of interacting, and she goes, my ex husband hates you,
Speaker 1: like hates me, right, And I'm like, that's not the
Speaker 1: smallest group. There's a few husbands and ex husbands and
Speaker 1: boyfriends who hate me. Right. I'm like, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, when did like when did he
Speaker 1: and I intersect? Where did I meet him? And she goes, oh,
Speaker 1: he's never met you. I went what she goes, He
Speaker 1: doesn't know you, he's never met you, he's never listened
Speaker 1: to a conversation of podcasts, nothing, but he thinks that
Speaker 1: you're the reason that we broke up, right, So the
Speaker 1: reason his marriage was destroyed was because of me.
Speaker 5: I'm like, Wow, how fucking delusion was that bloke? How
Speaker 5: much how arrogant and self righteous are you when you
Speaker 5: think that somebody that you've never met or had a
Speaker 5: conversation with you is that the reason that your marriage
Speaker 5: your marriage didn't work.
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's amazing how many guys don't he what
Speaker 3: the women are asking of them or telling them or
Speaker 3: explaining to them. And eventually, you know, they either get
Speaker 3: sick of saying it, whether they say it a different
Speaker 3: way by leaving or by yelling, and just so many
Speaker 3: different ways. And what we do know is the girls
Speaker 3: are telling us. The women are speaking right to us.
Speaker 3: They tell us exactly what they want. We just don't listen.
Speaker 3: And in this most case, really was not listening until
Speaker 3: he decided that it.
Speaker 1: Was all you. Yeah, fucking Craig Harper effect, Hey, mate,
Speaker 1: you're a gun. We didn't even talk about your coma.
Speaker 1: We'll do that next time, if there's the next time.
Speaker 1: But how do people connect with you or learn more
Speaker 1: or what do you want to and where do you
Speaker 1: want to direct people towards? If anything.
Speaker 3: I do have a website Jamie Stebben dot net. It
Speaker 3: is it needs updating. It's probably the easiest way. Or
Speaker 3: just email me on Jamie Steado at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: I don't know Jamie. Jamie Steado at gmail dot comedy's
Speaker 1: home address, everyone is number seven. All right, it's been
Speaker 1: We got through it. No internet problems today, so that
Speaker 1: was nice.
Speaker 3: Thank you, and it went a different way again, which
Speaker 3: was really cool.
Speaker 1: So buddy, we'll say we'll say goodbye off here. But
Speaker 1: for the moment, mate, we appreciate you being on the
Speaker 1: new project Tiff for you.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, thank you, Thanks Jamie cool, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 1: Thanks course