WEBVTT - Episode 6: Heat 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:03.040 Before we begin. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:08.240 This podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence. This is a 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.960 production by The Australian and our subscribers Here episodes first 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.560 and get full access to photos, video, news stories and 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.320 features plus all Australia's best journalism twenty four to seven. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.720 Join us at Gangstersghost dot com dot a U. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.320 I think his life changed, He changed completely. Sometimes in 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:36.680 life greed and money and to be powerful came me 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.479 into his world. I think that he loved it. He 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.400 loved what he was doing. He loved the sense that 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.080 he was mixing at those people. So biggest SMIs stata 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.120 you have made in his life. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:06.640 This is Margaret Reagan, the gangster's widow. In the fifty 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.440 years since Stuart John Reagan was murdered by three, possibly 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.800 four gunmen in the back streets of Marrickville in Sydney, 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:20.199 Mark has never spoken publicly about Johnny, about the gangster life, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:25.280 about Reagan's association with some of the most dangerous criminals 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.399 of his era. She was with him for more than 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.280 ten years, through the most volatile period of his career, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.080 to an hour or so before his death. She had 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.600 three children with him, and she has never in her 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:48.360 own words spoken out of school. Today, she still finds 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.960 it difficult to understand why he changed from a decent 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.560 young man to thug and petty crook to a violent mobster. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:02.720 She still wrestles with it. She saw the monster coming 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.200 in the late nineteen sixties. It all started at home, 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:13.280 behind closed doors. And it's still incredibly painful for marg. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.359 Yeah, a good person when it was good. But if 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.240 he was angry and things like that, which I've seen 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.799 several occasions, I can honestly say that I had not 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.799 experiencing one occasion that he beat me. To forgive me 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.400 when he hit me. Beating me beat me was that 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:37.280 early on, but that time ran about that time. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.640 What happened when he struck you in that incident? What happened? 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.960 You're not listening to me. I want you to do this. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.400 I can't remember what was about. I can't even remember. 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.320 And he struck me across the first Yeah, and I 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:52.160 ended up needing. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:54.600 Anything broken. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.919 No, and I'll have him at my bed betting mean 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.800 to fitness. And I also had a policeman come and say, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.440 you told you now I know who did this to you. 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.760 I don't know what you're talking about. We had to 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.240 need to survive. That was my life. I was taught 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.680 you've got nothing to say and look at number plates 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.200 in the back of my revision. Just to go out 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.760 on an ordinary day out, that was my life. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.480 But you didn't grow up in a criminal lawn. Did 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.239 you have to just adapt to that life? 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.920 Yes, and you know the reason why. I'll probably put 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.640 up with it for so long. You can't walk away 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:42.080 from people like this. I want you to say that 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.160 I know the real truth. I know what. I love him, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.560 and he wasn't by someone like it. He wasn't he 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.320 became that person. Power and money does a lot of 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.080 things to tchange people's lives. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.120 So in that Paddington house, how long did you stay there? 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.440 Not long? I've always stood my peace. I learned to 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:09.960 speak up. I knew my limits because I won't pass 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.280 the limits. He could have done anything, you know what 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.800 I mean. But I knew my limits and I thought, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.159 I'm God, I got nothing to do it. He would 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:23.040 chase me, he would please, please please. I'm sorry I 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.080 didn't turn up. I'm sorry I didn't do this. I'm 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.040 sorry I didn't do it. And when this went on 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:34.200 for so I really didn't have a real time because. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:39.760 You are bright. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:42.240 Yeah. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.320 I'm journalist Matthew Condon and This is the Gangster's Ghost, 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:28.440 a podcast from The Australian. This podcast started out as 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.160 a clinical look at one of Australia's most reviled gangsters, 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.680 but when the Reagan family came on board, the project 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:43.600 took on another dimension and begged the question how does 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.839 a family cope with the generational stain of a murderer 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:53.039 whose death was celebrated by criminals and police alike. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:11.280 This is episode six heat. 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.640 A man known as Big Barry was found yesterday with 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.680 four bullet wounds in his head in jungle like undergrowth 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:26.360 in Paddington. Police said the man, Barry Leonard Flock, twenty eight, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.880 had told a friend he had been marked down for 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.760 execution by the underworld a week ago. His body was 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.719 discovered yesterday just before noon by a woman she was 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.560 exercising her dog in an extensive area of undergrowth part 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.279 of the Scottish Hospital. Police believe Flock was lured or 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.360 forced to march at gunpoint by his killer or killers 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.640 into the thick undergrowth. Flock apparently put up his hands 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.239 as the bullet smashed into him. 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.960 It's Monday, January sixteenth, nineteen sixty seven, and Sydney has 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.320 woken to what appears to be another ruthless gangland killing. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.960 The city is getting used to this sort of carnage. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.160 One newspaper at the time asked why the city had 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:19.200 turned into Chicago with its open display of gangster carnage, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:24.040 and how come Sydney's mobsters were suddenly qualified for honorary 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:30.320 citizenship of the Windy City in the United States. On 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.760 that Monday, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that Barry Flock 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:39.920 was a nurse cleaner and minor King's Cross identity who, 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.520 at one hundred and eighty eight centimeters tall and one 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.600 hundred and one kilograms in wait, worked as a bouncer 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:52.960 for various gambling dens and nightclubs. He had somehow been 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.120 lured into the undergrowth near the hospital and murdered. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:01.640 The report went on, baller entered his head, including one 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.000 that first passed through his left hand near the right 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:08.880 index finger. Detectives described the murder as a typically callous 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:09.880 underworld execution. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.200 Stuart John Reagan was quickly suspected of the killing. The 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.400 public record shows that this may have been his first murder. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.880 It was just four months since his twenty first birthday 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.959 at Chequer's nightclub with mob boss Paddles Anderson. There were 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.319 several good reasons for police to think Reagan was the shooter. Firstly, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.880 Flock was murdered just a couple of streets away from 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:50.280 Reagan's mother's place at fifty one Liverpool Street on a 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.319 still night. The colonel and auntie Thelma could have virtually 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:58.760 heard the shots from their modest terrace, two blocks southwest 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:04.720 of the murder scene. Secondly, newspaper reports said Reagan was 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.280 well acquainted with the dense scrub land near the old hospital. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.960 This was from the Sun newspaper. 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.760 When John Reagan was a little boy, he had a 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.440 favorite hideout where the shrubs grew thick and the grass long, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.960 a tiny jungle in the heart of Sydney. His private 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.880 world was a wasteland in the grounds of the Scottish Hospital. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.240 Given Reagan spent his childhood in young New South Wales. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:38.280 Seen beside the point. What was factual was that Flock had, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.640 in the weeks leading up to his death, gotten caught 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:46.559 up in a business deal gone wrong with Reagan. Flock 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.200 had been working at a health studio in Bondai on 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:55.320 the recommendation of Reagan. The owner, Missus X, as the 0:09:55.320 --> 0:10:00.960 newspapers called her, had employed him with reservations. She did 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:06.400 it as a favor to Reagan. At one point, Missus 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.920 X had given Flock eight hundred dollars to look after. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.559 Reagan would later say Flock spent the money. Flock would 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:21.360 tell Missus X he had given it to Reagan. Someone 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:31.040 was lying. Reagan denied Flock's assertions. Reagan's heavies started harassing him. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.520 Flock lived with his wife and daughter in London Street, 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.080 Enmore in Sydney's in a West, and at one point 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.040 the family temporarily fled to the safety of a friend's 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:47.280 house after being threatened. But what was the big deal 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:55.920 over a paltry eight hundred dollars here's the sun again. 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.520 Naturally, Reagan was pulled in for questioning over Flock's death. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.760 He told detectives that although he had arranged to meet 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:09.040 Flock at Victoria Barracks, he'd been with a bird and forgot. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.240 When he did remember, he had telephone Flock and called 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.920 off the meeting. It was all very suspicious, and detectives 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.080 are now sure Reagan killed Big. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:25.280 Barry Mark remembers Flock, thank you John of murdering Barry 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:26.880 flap Ye what do you think. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:27.800 Of that you knew Arry? 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:27.880 What? 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.359 Yes? I did just now new Thocott. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:32.720 And John's relationship with him. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.880 Oh, I could see you, as I say, Nothing was 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.080 ever discussing me. Nothing I could not see to you, 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.240 and so honestly dont to you all I would as 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.720 I heard any conversations about what he was doing or whatever. 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.680 Obviously he's out there doing it, that wouldn't relate to me. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.680 Reagan was not charged with the murder, but according to 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.800 Reagan's official consorting records, he was being watched very closely 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:08.719 by police. The heat was on. Police noted he'd been 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.959 seen driving around in a sky blue nineteen sixty six 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:20.360 Jaguar registration EDZ double four to three. Two months later, 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.440 police observed him getting about town in a gun metal 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:31.480 gray nineteen sixty three Jaguar registration e k F nine 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:39.320 seven six Business. It seemed was good for Reagan. In 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.480 the months after Flock's murder, Reagan was in and out 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.600 of court for various matters, including consorting and possession of 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:53.520 an unlicensed pistol, and always by his side was his 0:12:53.720 --> 0:13:01.080 dutyful lawyer Michael Seymour. As marg told us, no one 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:06.680 was closer to John than Seymour. Seymour was one of 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.120 a handful of people who Reagan trusted, but who was he. 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:17.160 With the police heat intensifying on Reagan, he needed virtually 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.600 a lawyer on tap. He found one by proxy in 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:27.000 the mid nineteen sixties. Michael Thomas Seymour was a young 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.439 solicitor doing his articles for the Sydney law firm Lang 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:36.080 and Anderson. When that practice dissolved, Seymour inherited one of 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:43.280 their more colorful clients, Stuart John Reagan. They got on instantly. 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.120 As far as Seymour knew Reagan had tow truck and 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:52.680 panel beating businesses. He thought Reagan, despite having little education, 0:13:53.240 --> 0:14:00.800 was intelligent, enterprising, and ambitious. Seymour remained Reagan's confidante and 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:05.360 legal counsel until his client's murder in nineteen seventy four. 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.200 Seymour was struck off in the early nineteen eighties and 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.560 worked in later years as a migration agent. We'll come 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.200 to that later. Whichever way you looked at it, Seymour 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.000 would be a treasure trove of information about Reagan and 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:30.920 his life and times. Given Reagan's numerous prosecutions, Seymour had 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:36.240 the inside rail on how Reagan's mind worked, especially under pressure. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.400 More importantly, he might even have a good idea about 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.880 who murdered his gangster client, if only we could get 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.280 even a fraction of what he knew held inside that 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:58.640 legal safety deposit box known as lawyer client privilege. Kelly 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.920 and I wondered if Seymour was even still alive. If so, 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.560 he'd have to be in his late seventies or possibly 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:13.280 nudging his eighties. So Kelly set out to find him, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:18.640 and a few months later she phoned in, Okay. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.960 So I've got a bit of exciting news. I've just 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.720 got an email come up on my phone that says 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.000 Michael Seymour has sent me a message. 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.360 So I'm just going to go into it now. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.880 And have a look at what that message is and 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.560 see if I have actually found Michael Seymour that was 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:39.560 John's solicitor. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.120 How exciting if it is, Like, how cool would that be? 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.160 Kelly had sent an initial message to a Michael Seymour 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.080 explaining that she was Reagan's cousin and that she and 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.720 Mark wanted to reach out to him. Was he, in fact, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.360 the Michael Seymour who was Reagan's solicitor in the namenineteen 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:01.960 sixties and seventies. 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:09.960 And he's just replied to me and said, wow, that 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.600 well that is a blaster in the past. Yes, I 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.280 was John Reagan's lawyer and would be interested in talking 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.400 to marg And then gave all these contact details let 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.200 me know where he's resided and said thanks for the message. 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.080 So how exciting. 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.920 I mean, great if my auntie mag gets to speak 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.360 to Michael. But I'd just love to speak to him. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.120 Like for me, that's as close as I'm going to 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.600 get to speaking to John, Like he would. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:35.920 Know so much. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.240 Whether he wants to talk or not, I'm not sure, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.960 but you know, just finding him was pretty is pretty cool. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.480 So I found him. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:50.880 By Seymour is mentioned numerous times in Reagan's secret tapes. 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:57.120 The gangster clearly held him in high regard, so much 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.960 so that Reagan didn't hesitate to wreck amend him to 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.080 friends in trouble with the law. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.040 You know you've got a good defense for this down 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.879 make a statement of SayMore and say that's the reason 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.919 why you're fined. Get that Ora Worseley. But everything worsely 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.120 says then and say more statement And that's the India case. 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.320 You know that Dadger he down to discussed it all right, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.560 if you can tie that day on, even if the 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.040 Copple just says it to you from him's way after 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.159 your mat if he just says it to you and 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.119 you make a statement about it, the same work and 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.520 down take steps. You gotta get a barrister. They are 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.680 going to give you a sea. Get it by called 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:42.520 dayson w kill oh barrister my days he killed? 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:43.919 And whatever? 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:44.359 Mate? 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:51.280 What's his lying? You keep saying More a solicitor man 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.399 because he's the best solicit in Australia. I'm not kidding me. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:01.080 After many weeks of negotiation, see More agreed to meet me, 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:06.399 Kelly and marg for lunch at his favorite Chinese restaurant 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.879 in Castle Hill in outer northwestern Sydney. Kelly and I 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:15.120 discussed the lunch meeting and tried to work out a strategy. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.160 So Simour says, and it's interesting because the second time 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:23.960 he's mentioned this. But he says at the end of 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.720 the email, let's see what the podcast can flush out. 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.000 He says, it's a dangerous exercise. He's used that exact 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.919 phrase twice in the last month. Then he says, but 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.560 at my age of eighty years, nothing bothers me anymore. 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:41.520 So I think we've hit a sweet spot with him, thankfully. Yeah, 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:42.639 it's going to be incredible. 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.119 I love the one above it where he says, I 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:46.800 don't know if any of the police involved in the 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.520 matters are still on this planet or not, but if alive, 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.840 would be in their eighties and on the home run, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.280 carrying the ailment of aging along with possible type two 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.840 diabetes and a guilty conscience, praying their sins of the 0:18:58.840 --> 0:18:59.480 past will. 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.080 Never catch up them, at least on this earth. It's interesting, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:03.359 is it? 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.040 Because but this is exactly what my father said to 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.040 me at the very beginning when I first said I 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.800 was going to contact you, and Dad's like, oh, just 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.160 be really careful, like and I said, tongue in cheek, Oh, Dad, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:16.000 anybody around it? 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.719 We chasing us on scooters Like I reckon. I can 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:19.520 outrun a scooter. 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.960 It's interesting that Michael has probably said to me in texts, 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.720 probably four or five times, it's dangerous. I'm not seeing 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.879 the danger probably from the same level as he is. 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.960 I'm probably thinking he's paranoid, but his car was shot up. 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:35.880 He lived in there. 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.760 He got run through the mill like he stood up 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.720 to them, and the constant dialogue of fear is relevant. 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:47.040 Don't you reckon like these people wielded an unyielding knife 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:47.960 like it's just. 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.480 The Chinese restaurant was the type you find right across 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:59.840 suburban Australia. The round tables, white tablecloths, the lazy Susan, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.560 the center packed to the rafters and busy with chatter 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:08.479 and the clinking of plates and cutlery. Seymour was there 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:14.359 before we arrived. He was the opposite of what I expected. 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.640 I had somehow frozen him in time and thought we'd 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.000 be met by a youngish man in a good suit, 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:27.560 a loyally type, perhaps, with dark hair and horn rimmed glasses. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.960 Instead we were met by an old man in a 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:38.080 short sleeved shirt, shorts and long socks, with disheveled gray hair. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.880 He looked like any pensioner out for some spring rolls 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:48.040 and a bowl of sweet and sour pork. One thing 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:53.760 I wasn't disappointed with he talked a big game. His 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:58.159 language was slightly formal and jam packed with legal ease. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.919 Though he hadn't just in New South Wales for forty years. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.840 He was a little bit haughty. He had with him 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:15.680 a shopping bag containing some documents. The restaurant was incredibly noisy, 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:22.280 but for a while Seymour delved back into the past. 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.600 I asked him how he first came to legally represent 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:31.240 Reagan a warning. When we talked, we were surrounded by 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.080 dozens of other eager dynas John first became a pie. 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.439 I think I read briefly in here that the company 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:45.040 you were working for dissolved and Reagan was on their books. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:54.440 But I was like the law clerk who Langy did 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.240 commercial work. Anderson came into the last year that I 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:06.440 was there. Anderson work with Phil Roach got good experience 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.400 in Pimmelwell, so. 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.040 This is nineteen sixty five. 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.040 Four. How old were you then? 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:20.879 I was a minute to practice February sixty five? 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:28.440 How old were you more than forty two? So your 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:34.400 early twenties. So I was a young feller. 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.200 Now Anderson was leaving the firm to go to the bar. 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:47.040 Anderson was a bit slippery in my view when he 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.399 talked to you. It's bent over and Phil correct harshires 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.280 free quiet Reagan wanted to follow me. 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.320 But how did you become acquainted legally? 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.680 Initially? Was it through the law Phil. 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.960 The FIV firm was pg le FEV and I agreed 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:11.639 to act for John on the right case in which 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.760 Tony Boleno and dars Anderson appeared. It was a trial 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:22.000 the dowling Hurst and not not killed him. 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:24.520 Uh after that? 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:25.480 Yeah? 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.159 When about that time John was charged with being a 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:30.800 possession of und licensed pistol? 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:35.840 Did you appear for John from the unlicensed pistol charge? 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.320 He was arrested take the Downinghurst. 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.200 I went up there he was arrested and I said, no, 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:49.639 he's upstairs being interviewed. I wait downstairs? Whe hours? Do 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.239 I know who I was? And so you know I am, 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:58.520 for quite sake, my client's upstairs. So then after they 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:04.120 leave John wasn't but upstairs they had taken him somewhere else. 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:07.280 I think there was an unsigned regular interview with the 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:13.440 verbal yeah whatever. So we were able to show that 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:19.440 the police officer's diaries and their notebooks didn't correspond in 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.080 like two the four detectives who picked him up from 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:24.000 two interviewed him. 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:25.440 Who had the running of the case. 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:30.399 That was before one of the few motor strikes that 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:36.840 understood reasonable doubt. One document in Evers shot doing a fortune, 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:38.320 so he was acquitted on that. 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:43.160 Seymour clearly recalled that Reagan would often wear bulletproof vests. 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.840 He remembered the assassination attempt on Reagan by Stuart and 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:53.200 Finch outside Barrick Motors in Paddington in late nineteen sixty five. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:00.880 There were no love lies between Finch John. 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:07.440 Because at Barrack Motors one day in broad daylight, since 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:13.440 she called a revolver on John badly shared him. I 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:16.040 just missed the bullet record showed off. 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:17.800 Uh. 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:25.240 Finch took off. John took off another rocky drying put 0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:25.960 in finding. 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:32.320 Later Finch was chart with the Cptain murder ncamuson be 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:36.920 the ACRA. I said I can't, I said, yeah, Sharp 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:38.600 and client to kill Tyne. 0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:40.960 Yeah. 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.359 We wanted to know what Reagan was like when, as 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:50.480 Mark observed, his personality changed when the monster stepped out 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.199 of the shadows, when he was in and out of 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:58.920 police stations like well, a dish on a lazy Susan 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:01.640 in a suburb in Chinese restaurant. 0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:05.840 And how was how did he strike you? 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:08.040 In those early years as. 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:11.600 A like he was a likable fellow. 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:12.840 Uh. 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:15.840 He regali intelligence. 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:21.760 Ever on his guard, seeful of being loaded up by 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:25.280 the police. He didn't keep the best of company in 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:30.920 the underworld. But in reputations, what. 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:31.760 Was his reputation? 0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:35.840 Firstim to be feared physical violence? 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:42.720 Yeah, I suppose, but he was only convicted of one 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:46.160 fun of song, which was interesting case. 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:50.480 How the pencil self defense. The beginning of that was that. 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:55.040 Reagan was I think of bouncing in a nightclub with 0:26:55.160 --> 0:27:00.000 King's Christian and the closing time came, people asked to leave. 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:03.080 There was a bunch of Google slabs who refused to go. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:07.920 They went, and I think Regan obviously made some remarks 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:11.600 about them. And then the place is closing down and 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:16.399 back come about up. A dozen Yugoslavs were the belting. 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:20.480 He tells, well, he's on the stage up there with 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:27.320 a chair. Kevino was bay And then whilst that if 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:30.399 you all was occurring, someone finds the police and the 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:31.160 police arrived. 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:35.120 That's it. So Reagan thought, I'll get. 0:27:34.920 --> 0:27:39.000 One of these guys one day. So a few years 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.760 later he was in a restaurant and he tells me 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:45.880 that he saw one of those blogs that assaulted him 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:52.439 and threatened him. So his defense was, I walked up 0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:55.159 to the tables to excuse me. I think you were 0:27:55.200 --> 0:28:01.680 the person who threatened assaulted me some time go. Where 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:05.440 upon the Yugoslas get stuffed and sap John John retaliate 0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:10.000 the Crown's case was up. Came John, grab a lot 0:28:10.040 --> 0:28:11.680 of scup of the neck and said you are so 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:15.960 and who tried to belt me with six other Ligoslavs whacked. 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:19.920 There was a difference in the evidence. 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:24.000 By the time I didn't got up the trial, John 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:26.959 was a bit bigger, he flying up a bit. 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:28.879 He looked pretty tough. 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:34.120 Basically before a jury over against yugoslav The jury convicted him. 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:35.840 He got tour bucks. 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:38.480 Hyeah and. 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:46.760 Seymour had other amusing but relatively innocuous anecdotes about Reagan. 0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:52.520 He was more preoccupied with his own legal difficulties. In 0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:56.360