1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: The jury of the jailhouse has its own opinion. Very 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: interesting lot inside. They can be fairly uncompromising when it 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: comes to crime and punishment. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: A guy who stole a cat flat from Bunnings was 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: up on a charge of theft because he stole a 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: cat flap and then tried to get a refund. 7 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: The cash is master. Cruinal ice has not improved things, hasn't. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 2: No, It's made the life a whole lot worse for 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: police and judges in the country. 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew. Rule is life in crimes. We have a 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: lot of interesting people come to our studios or sometimes 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: call in, and today we've got one of the best. 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Our back court reporter is the name of her book. 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: It's also a description of what she used to do. 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: This is Jamel Wells Jammel. I noticed a year agol 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: from Cooba way back in the day, and that you 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: used to write at shows like Sydney Royal and other 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: places where I think your dad used to take you 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: with your favorite pony. How does a girl from Coba 20 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Pony Club, I imagine, end up reporting on courts all 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: around the nation? Tell us about that journey. 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: I think by accident. Andrew I had always wanted to 23 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: be a journalist when I was at school at Koba 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: High School where I went to school, it was public school. 25 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: I think they were only about eight or nine people 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: who did their HC. And for a lot of my subjects, 27 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: I didn't actually have a teacher. I had to do 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 2: them almost by correspondents. And then I left school and 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: went to work as a journalist in commercial media, and 30 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 2: I read and worked in radio and commercial radio newsrooms 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: for quite a while, and then eventually down my way 32 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: to the ABC and one of the court reporters left, 33 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: one of the Sydney court reporters moved into State and 34 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: one of my bosses said, oh, do you want to 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: do the court round? And I had covered an ICAC 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: inquiry before that, which was a lot of fun, and 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, yeah, courts can't be too different from 38 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: ICQ inquiries, and then if very different, And then I 39 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: was petrified because I thought, oh, no, what have I done. 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: The thing about court reporting is, as you would know, 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: no one can actually teach you how to do it. 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: They can suggest things and tell you about some of 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: the protocols, but it's very much a job where you 44 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: have to learn on the job, and you have to 45 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: follow other people around and learn as you go, and 46 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: no day in court is the same, and there are 47 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: hundreds of different courts, you know, there are local court, 48 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: district court, Supreme courts, federal court, high cords. And it 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: was trial by error, and I was certainly thrown into 50 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: this whole new world of legal jargon. And I think 51 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: what appealed to me most was the theater of court 52 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: rooms and the fact that every damut of human emotions 53 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: comes out in a court room and it can be 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: really sad and disturbing, but highly entertaining as well. So 55 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: I did the court and I still do. You do 56 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: some court reporting that I did do the court round 57 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: for about a decade for the ABC, so it's a 58 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: long time. 59 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: In that time, you've covered probably hundreds of cases and 60 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: in dozens of courtrooms. But I note that you've covered 61 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: some cases that are of national renown. One of them 62 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: is the Gordon Wood trial, which was a long running, 63 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: very messy affair, and that of course takes us back 64 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: to the untimely death of his girlfriend, Carolyn Byrne. You know, 65 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: of course, Gordon Wood, our listeners might recall, was a tall, blonde, 66 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: handsome young man that used to be Rene Rivcny the 67 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: late millionaires private assistant and chauffeur. Interesting job description and 68 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. It was an interesting case 69 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: because it sort of picked up on a lot of 70 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: people in Sydney cafe society for one of a better phrase. 71 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: You of course will remember the facts of the matter, 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: but just run a bit of it past us. 73 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: Well. That was one of the first murder trial like 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: covered and it was very high profile. Gordon Wood was 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: accused of throwing his model girlfriend Caroline Burne over the Gap, 76 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: a well known suicide spot in Sydney's eastern suburbs. It's 77 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: out in Watson's Bay, and he was accused of doing 78 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: so because he was jealous and obsessed with her, And 79 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: the crown case was that he went out there with 80 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: her late at night, they had an argument and he 81 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: somehow pushed her over the gap. Now, his defense was 82 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: that she had had suicidal thoughts, she had mental health issues, 83 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: and that she had committed suicide. After a very long 84 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: running trial, he was convicted, found guilty of murder and jailed, 85 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: and then he won an appeal and that he was 86 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: acquitted and then walked free and then started to sue 87 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: the State of New South Wales for malicious prosecution. 88 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: He was acquitted. 89 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: As he mentioned, it had high profile witnesses such as 90 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: Jim Dally Watkins, the modeling agency entrepreneur who had trained 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: and managed Carolyn Burne at some stage. It had very 92 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: high profile magazine editors and celebrity psychologists and very high 93 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: profile Sydney business people who all created in and out 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: of the Supreme Court at down at Taylor Square in 95 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: Sydney giving evidence. And of course Gordon would was very 96 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: very tall, blonde, detractive man, had a whole lot of 97 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: glamorous people he hung out with, but he had always 98 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: maintained his innocence. There was an inquest into her death 99 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: and it didn't conclude that anyone should be charged, and 100 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: Carolyn Burn's father believed all along that she had been murdered, 101 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: so he pushed very very hard, and her former employer, 102 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 2: Jean Dally Watkins did that too, And before this matter 103 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: actually got to trial, they went around a lot of 104 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: businesses around the gap around Watson's Bay where this well 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: known suicide cliff was, and they handed out grocers and 106 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: photos of Caroline and set as anyone seen her, and 107 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 2: they gathered witness statements, and they really pushed hard. The 108 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: police had a bit of a setback in the case. 109 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: One of the detectives who was at first investigating it 110 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 2: actually got hit by a bus halfway through the investigations. 111 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: So the police said all along that they were very 112 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: under resourced. They mixed up some of the evidence. For example, 113 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: we found out at the trial that they had posted 114 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: a place where her body had been found, but it 115 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: was actually the wrong place, and they'd got some of 116 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: the evidence mixed up and changed around. So there are 117 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: all sorts of setbacks and complications. And I remember at 118 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: the start of the trial, I think that the jury 119 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: had to be discharged because one of the jurors had 120 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: decided to go out to the gap themselves and their 121 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: own investigation, which jurors are told by judges not to do. 122 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: So there are all sorts of twists in turn on 123 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: the way. And the day he was found guilty, it 124 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: was early on a weekday morning and the jury had 125 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: been out for some time and the jury foreman called 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: the court staff, whom they came in. It was about 127 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: nine point thirty in the morning, and it was a 128 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: very very quick quick decision, and it was quite shocking 129 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: when the guilty verdict was read out and Gordon, who'd 130 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: been free on bail and walking in and out of 131 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: the courtroom, was suddenly taken into custody. 132 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: Now your reaction your a veteran court reported, Well, I 133 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you have veteran then, but you've certainly 134 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: become one since. I guess you've seen a lot of 135 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: trials and a lot of accused, and a lot of 136 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: people found guilty and a lot found not guilty. Were 137 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: you shocked yourself when that happened, and did you think 138 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: that's a miscarriage of justice or were you happy to 139 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: sort of go along with it. 140 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: Look, that was one of the very first murder trials 141 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 2: i'd covered, and there were compelling cases on both sides. 142 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: You had the then Chief Crown Prosecutor in New South Wales, 143 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: Mark Tedeski, who was very articulate and a great performer 144 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: in a court room and presented this compelling case. And 145 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: Gordon Wood also had a top defense barrister, Winston Terracini, 146 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: who I think he was nicknamed Terror or something. He 147 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: was quite short of stature, but highly articulate and a 148 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: fantastic defense barrister. So there were two very very compelling cases, 149 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: and there were a lot of witnesses and everybody, well, 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: I mean, as reporters, we do this all the time. 151 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: We all say, oh, I think I know what happened, 152 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: or I think it's going this way. But the truth is, 153 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: I've found that you never really know which way jury's 154 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: going to go. You can be quite surprised by the chamblin. 155 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: But what was your reaction? You're the jury for me. 156 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: Shopped because it was one of the first trials I'd covered, 157 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: and it was so dramatic, and the guilty verdict was 158 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: read out and he was taken into custody in suddenly 159 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: it was this just this mad flurry of you know, 160 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: as as it always his reporters gathering at said the court, 161 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 2: trying to get grabs from all the people involved. And 162 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 2: then everybody came out and made a statement. Carol and 163 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: Burne's father came out and made a statement, and then 164 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: Miss jin Dally Watkins came out and made a statement. 165 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: I think Winston spoke at the time. 166 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: But were you surprised at the verdict? And then were 167 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: you surprised when he appealed and won over time? 168 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: No, No, I thought there were some perhaps holes in 169 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: the crown pace, but if it had gone either way, 170 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: it was a really big, dramatic day in the cortand 171 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: it was quite overwhelming. 172 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: You were day You weren't personally invested in one way 173 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: or the other. 174 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: No, No, because it was one of the first trials 175 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: I'd covered, and it was a how do I say? Yes? 176 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: It was important in that this was someone's future being determined, 177 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: and there are a lot of grieving family members wanting 178 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,359 Speaker 2: justice for car and burn, but it had been a big, celebrity, 179 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: high profile trial. There hadn't been any Some of the 180 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: trials that have really stayed with me over the years 181 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: have been murder trials involving children, for example, or whole 182 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: families who've been murdered by someone in their own time. 183 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: That leads us to at least two others and money 184 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: is the very well known case because there has been 185 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: a lot of coverage with television programs. The murder trial 186 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: of Kelly Lane, the young woman water polo player, big, strong, fit, 187 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: athletic young woman who was accused and convicted and jailed 188 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: over the death and disappearance of a newborn baby. Is 189 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: that right? Can you take us back over that? Yeah? 190 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: That's right. Kelly Lane was a very very good water 191 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 2: polo player. She'd been chosen as to being in Australian 192 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: teams for very high profile competitions, including the Olympics. And 193 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: she had a baby daughter called Tigan, who mysteriously disappeared, 194 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: and she has argued all along that the child's father 195 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: took her and that man has never been found. So 196 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: that was the evidence presented to the court at her trial, 197 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: that she gave the child up to its biological father. 198 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: But the crown case was that she somehow murdered the 199 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: child and disposed of the child's body. But Tiggan's body 200 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: has never been found. That that is really important, and 201 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: Kelly Lane was asked repeatedly to identify this man. A 202 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: few people were presented as the possible father of the child, 203 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: but she argued that she wanted to maintain his secrecy 204 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: and you know, she didn't have to reveal it or 205 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: reveal his identity. So it's interesting though she was jailed 206 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: for murder after being found guilt. But the trial judge 207 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 2: who presided over that case, he's now retired just as. 208 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: He actually he's over his shyness problem. He doesn't mind a. 209 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: Chat He said in retrospect that it troubled him at 210 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: times that the jury wasn't given the alternative charge of 211 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: manslaughter to consider. And I can't quite recall why that 212 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: happened at the time, but he has said that that 213 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: that verdict troubled him for some time, partly because of 214 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: that reason. She's lost new recipeals as we know, and 215 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: we've heard various reports over the years of her fate 216 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: in jail. You know that she has had issues of 217 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: being assaulted by other inmates and whatnot, but she has 218 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: maintained her innocence all along. 219 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: The jury of the jail house has its own opinion. 220 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: Very interesting lot inside. They can be fairly uncompromising when 221 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: it comes to crime and punishment. They throw boiling water 222 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,239 Speaker 1: around all sorts of things. It does seem a strange 223 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: defense that she gave it to unknown man who vanished. 224 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the evidence presented at the trial was that 225 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: soon after getting birds, she went to a wedding and 226 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: was filmed. You know that she snuck out of Auban 227 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 2: hospital in Sydney's West and then was videoed dancing at 228 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: someone's wedding. Quite remarkable, and the other evidence presented at 229 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: her trial was that she had had several pregnancies and 230 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: that she'd hidden them from her various partners, so that 231 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: was quite quite profound as well. 232 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: She's a complicated character. No matter what the truth is 233 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: of this baby's disappearance, she's got a very strange background. 234 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: There's another one now. I wasn't very familiar with this 235 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: until I had a look at it. It's very much 236 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: in your South Wales case, but it was a very 237 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: big case in your South Wales and as where really 238 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: a national podcast, I think we should have a look 239 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: at it. That is the trial of Jeffrey Gillham, who 240 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: was accused tell me if I'm wrong of killing not 241 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: only his brother Christopher, who which I think he admits, 242 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: but killing his parents, which he strongly denies. He appeals 243 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: and on appeal he was acquitted. This is one of 244 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: those peculiar family murders where you know one person is 245 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: accused of wiping out the rest of the family. Tell 246 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: us a bit about that. 247 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: That's right, he was accused of murdering his parents and 248 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: his brother. And that was a trial that was heard 249 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: very very early on in my career, when I wasn't 250 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: quite covering the court round and I think I inherited 251 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: that trial from the prenecess at various appeals along the way, 252 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: but from memory. He was accused of starting a fire 253 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: or something that wiped out his parents, and the crown 254 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: case was that he was motivated by greed. He wanted money, 255 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: as is the motivation of many people have worked out people, 256 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: and we hear this a lot in murder trials, and 257 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: we hear money as been the center of much conflict 258 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: in courtrooms, not only in the city but also in 259 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: the country. If I might talk about a story very 260 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: close to me, in my little home town of Cooba, 261 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: there was a very well known family, the Setries, Margaret 262 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: and In Setri, and they were good community people. They 263 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: did a lot of volunteer work. They were loved in 264 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: the town. And their son, Scott Setri, who we can 265 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: name now stood trial for murdering them, and he had 266 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: a lot of mental health issues. And at his trial, 267 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: it was a judge alone trial, the court heard that 268 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: he had an argument with them over a bottle of wine. 269 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: So he took a gun from the cupboard and shot 270 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: them both get at point black range in their Coba 271 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: home and then covered in blood, he walked into the 272 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: local pub and there are retired police officer recognized him 273 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: and said, mate, it covered in blood. What's wrong And 274 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: he said, I think I've done something bad. So this 275 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: ex cock phoned police and that all unfolded. Now, why 276 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: this turned out to be a really significant trial for 277 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: my hometown was that he was actually found not guilty 278 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: by reason of mental illness. And so you know that 279 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: means that the judge says, okay, you had to go 280 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: to a prison hospital until you are deemed well enough 281 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: to be let out in the community, and there's no 282 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: conviction record. Now, his sister, Wendy Robinson lobbied the new 283 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: South Wales Attorney General for years to try to change 284 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: that because it really upset her that people could murder 285 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: their parents or murder a family member and then be 286 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: found not guilty by reason of mental illness. So she's 287 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: still lobbying away at that. But it ended up in 288 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: court over money because he stood to inherit despite murdering 289 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: his parents. He stood to inherit something like a million 290 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: dollars from their estate having killed them. So Wendy applied 291 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: to the court to have something called a forfeiture rule 292 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: forced by the judge and the judge you heard that case, 293 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: said look, I'm going to enforce that rule. I'm not 294 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: going to give you you a million dollars, but I 295 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: am going to give you one hundred thousand dollars because 296 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: at some stage you're going to get out of jail 297 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: and you're going to be a burden on society. You know, 298 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: someone's going to have to pay for your upkeeps. So 299 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to give you some money for your care. 300 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: From what I understand, he has been I think he's 301 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: due for paroles soon or some sort of day release. 302 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 2: So I know this because Wendy's been contacting the media 303 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: and saying that A she's concerned about that, and B 304 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: she still wants these laws changed where people can just 305 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 2: be found not guilty by reason of mental illness. She 306 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: wants it varied somehow so that there is some sort 307 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: of conviction recorded even though there's a mental illness finding. 308 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: She thinks that it's not mental illness, that it is staged. 309 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: That even going to the pub covered in blood, some 310 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: might say, is a good way to stage mental illness. 311 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: You know, why would you do that? If you were 312 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: just a genuine murderer, you wouldn't dub yourself in like that, etc. Etc. 313 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: What's your thoughts. 314 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: I think he did have a history of mental illness, 315 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: and the issue is that being out in the country, 316 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: there's very poor health care and no mental health care 317 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: at all, and he had not been taking his medication 318 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: according to the family, but there was no backup and 319 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 2: no follow up. So few years they had tried to 320 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: get him mental health care, but the truth is there's 321 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: none and so at that time he wasn't able to 322 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: see a psychologist, psychiatrist, counselor wasn't even able to get 323 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: into a GP. So that's another big issue in the 324 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: country and I see a lot of that in the 325 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: time I've spent in country courtrooms, not just in my 326 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: hometown but all over Australia. The law and the health 327 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: system are really closely linked because a lot of the 328 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: judges and magistrates in the country say, Okay, I want 329 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 2: to send this person to a drug rehead program. I 330 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: want a few different bail options for them, but they 331 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: can't because there's no rehab. You know, A lot of 332 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,239 Speaker 2: magistrates say, look, you know, I want you to go 333 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: and get go and see a GP and get a 334 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: mental health care plan and get some counseling and you know, 335 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: get your life back on track. And I've actually seen 336 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: young people in the court go your honor. You know, 337 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: I can't get into a GP for three months. And 338 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 2: they're not exaggerating that the health is so bad in 339 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: some regional areas, the health care, I should say, it's 340 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: just nonexistent. So the magistrates are limited in the sentences 341 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: they hand down and in the way they release people 342 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: on mail and run their courtroom a lot of the time. 343 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: Ah, I see. It's interesting in that case, had there 344 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: been a little more enforcement about locking up guns, he 345 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: couldn't have just reached into a cupboard and pulled one out. 346 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: If his parents were concerned about his mental health all 347 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: those years, perhaps locking up guns might have been a 348 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: good trick. 349 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 2: Look, it might have, Andrew, But I think they were 350 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: very trusting country people who tried to do the best 351 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 2: for him. You know, we heard in court that they'd 352 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: lent him money, they'd paid his bills, that they made 353 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: excuses for his violent outbursts, as parents do to protect 354 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: their children. But you make a really good point. At 355 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: a lot of the courts I've sat in in the country. 356 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: You know, gun crime and gun violence is big because 357 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 2: farmers have guns, they need them for part of what 358 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: they do. And especially in a lot of domestic violence cases, 359 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: there are a lot of you know, men who have 360 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: access to guns and use them to threaten women. Women 361 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: who access have access to guns use them to threaten men. 362 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 2: A lot of kids get come before the courts because 363 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: they shot animals on someone's property or just gone and 364 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: shot up the tires of someone's car out of boredom, 365 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: because they have happen to do so. Guns and weapons 366 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: feature a lot in country courtrooms. 367 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: Country courts here now, I think you covered a terrorism trial. 368 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: Which one was that, Oh, there were a few. What's 369 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: your favorite or your least favorite? 370 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: There was a very long running one and it went 371 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: for over a year. It was a number of young men, 372 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 2: I think there were about half a dozen of them, 373 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: and they were all charged over with terrorism offenses after 374 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: a series of plots were uncovered to do things like 375 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: blow up the Harbor Bridge and behead the Prime Minister 376 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: and all sorts of other atrocities. And they purposely built 377 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: a court room out at Parramatta in Sydney's West for 378 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: this trial because they thought that the courtrooms in the 379 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: city weren't secure enough. So this trial courtroom was built. 380 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 2: It was high security, and these young men stood trial 381 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: and the judge who jailed them, I think most of 382 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: them are on parole now. The judge who actually jailed them, 383 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: he said, you've shown no remorse, and they were doing 384 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: things like standing up and yelling at the judge in court, 385 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 2: and their supporters in the public gallery were quite aggressive 386 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: towards members of the public. And the judge said, if 387 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: I could jail you some longer, I would, but the 388 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: legislation as such as I can only give you this 389 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: genial term. And they all got various jail sentences, but 390 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: they were essentially jailed for plotting terrorist attacks. And what 391 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 2: we heard at that trial were allegations that they'd been 392 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 2: out in the country around places like Burking Country, New 393 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: South Wales, learning how to fly planes and training out 394 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: in the bush, learning how to use gardens and things 395 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: like that. So it was quite scary. It was quite 396 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 2: that very confronting. 397 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Is a question. It'd be intriguing to know whether those 398 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: people approached to teach those people to fly planes. Wonder 399 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: they're an unusual cohort and maybe I'll mention this to 400 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: some did that happen. 401 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: No, they didn't at the time. That there have been 402 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: cases since then of people. I think there's once before 403 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: the courts as we speak, people accused of training overseas 404 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: pilots to do things that they shouldn't be doing and whatnot. 405 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 2: There as an American fellow before the court. Yes, yes, 406 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: so that that is an interesting one. I think at 407 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 2: the time it was the start of a lot of 408 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 2: the terrorism related crime we have in Australia now and 409 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: it was the first really big trial for it, and 410 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: there was one running in Melbourne. I think. Concurrently there 411 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: was run all the year before the year after Benbrika 412 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: begin so there was just a whole string of trials together, 413 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 2: but there were all sorts of suppression orders and it 414 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: was only some time after the trials we could talk 415 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: about them. But this one went for over a year. 416 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: It was a long time to sit through a trial 417 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: and I felt for the jury it was a big 418 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: chunk out of them. 419 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: Yes, it's intriguing with big cases and once committed, they've 420 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: really got to stay there. You know, they might put 421 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: fourteen in to allow two to fall by the wayside, 422 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: but it's a big deal, isn't it. For people. 423 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: It really is. And people say that after being on juries, 424 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: they say that it's been life changing, you know, for 425 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: all sorts of reasons. A it's a year out of 426 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: it would have been a year out of their life. 427 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: But be you suddenly, if you're a juror in a 428 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: room with a group of strangers and you suddenly forced 429 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 2: to work with them, get on with them, you know, 430 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 2: make decisions with them, I think that would be hard. 431 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: And what we heard at that trial too, was that 432 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 2: initially some of the jurors had been followed to their 433 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: cars by people. Oh yeah, yeah, So what they had 434 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: to do was then bust them in. Every day as 435 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: extra safety precaution, a bus would pick up the jurors 436 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: to make a secret point and bring them to court. 437 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wonderful. It really sort of reassures you about 438 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: it the authorities and how the countries run. Really all 439 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff can happen. Now you've sat through 440 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: a lot of things in court, how do you feel 441 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: for judges, magistrates, perhaps even some lawyers and jurors the 442 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: risk of going to sleep after lunch. Have you found 443 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: that a problem? You know, at two o'clock in the 444 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: afternoon and there you are in and they're droning on 445 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: and the sun's coming through the windows, and you think, 446 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: my head's going to nod and I'm going to go 447 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: to sleep here. Is that not a terrible thing to 448 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: happen in court? 449 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: It's awful if you snore, because you're busted straight away. Look, truthfully, 450 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: I have gone to sleep in some courtrooms. I have 451 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: never seen a judge go to sleep in the court room, 452 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: and especially in some of the country courtrooms I've been in, 453 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: because their workload is so big. They've got this huge 454 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: list to get through, and it's been my experience they're 455 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: just plowing through it all as quickly as they can. 456 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: But a lot of what you see in city courtrooms, 457 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 2: in long running trials and things is is really boring. 458 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: I mean, there's the dramatic and really interesting stuff, but 459 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: there are whole lots of statistics and re enactments to 460 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: things on video and experts you know, analyzing dark and 461 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 2: all important stuff. But yeah, ted is for people who 462 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: aren't experts in it themselves. So I really admire judges 463 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: and magistrates for keeping their composure and sitting through it 464 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: and understanding it, yeah, and trying to make and directing 465 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: jurists to consider it properly. That's really important because if 466 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: the judge doesn't give the right sort of directions to 467 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: the jury, you know about how to interpret this stuff, 468 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: and you know that that can have really awful consequences. 469 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: If you were dictator for a day and they said, okay, Jamelle, 470 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: the jury system do we really need it? Or should 471 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: we have trials by judge alone with perhaps two assistant 472 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: experts in their field, or should we have an inquisitorial system? 473 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: What would you say? You're a dictator now, so waiver wand. 474 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: I would say judge alone. 475 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: Yep. 476 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: That's just a very personal thing because I've sat through 477 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: a lot of trials in a lot of different juries. 478 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 2: But I have spoken to top crown prosecutors who swear 479 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: by the jury's system and they say it's a great system. 480 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 2: It's not perfect, but it's great. But my personal preference 481 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: would be for judge alone. What I have seen in 482 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: covering a lot of country courts for this latest book 483 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: is that most of the stuff you hear in country 484 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: counts is local court stuff before a magistrate or an 485 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: inquiry or something. It doesn't often involve a jury. And 486 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 2: what I saw was that country magistrates do a whole 487 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: lot more than these city counterparts. They're like bush doctors. 488 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: You know, they do a bit of everything. So they 489 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 2: they might do a bit of children's court working in 490 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: their local court, they might do an inquest for a day, 491 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 2: or you know, they're doing a little bit of everything. 492 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 2: They might use some family violence matters, whereas in a 493 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: city court room, magistrates have a lot more leeway to 494 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 2: bat things around to each other. You know, they'll go 495 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: on my list is full for the day, I want 496 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: to move this over to court five or something, or 497 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: I want to find another another person to A country 498 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: magistrate just doesn't have that liberty. And what I saw 499 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: was that they do work. I would argue a lot harder, 500 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 2: a lot longer hours, and there seems to be a 501 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: very high mental burnout rate. Like one district court judge 502 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: I spoke to you, who'd spend a lot of time 503 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: in the country, said she just used to go home 504 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: and lie on the couch at the end of the day. 505 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: And like coll Up, she said, I was just so 506 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: overwhelmed by the caseload. Another magistrate, for example, this is 507 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: how hard their job can be. She was in the 508 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: sixties and she drove to Burke to preside over Burke 509 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: Court in out New South Wales, and this group of 510 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: children broke into her hotel room and tried to steal 511 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: her handbag and her car keys. One got in through 512 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: the window and let the others in and she fought 513 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: them off, and as she was ringing up for help, 514 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: they came back again and she fought them off again. 515 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: That now, luckily she wasn't badly injured. But that's the 516 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: sort of stuff that can happen. They're often driving around 517 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: long distances. One magistrate who actually retired when he was 518 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: in his fifties because he said that was just so overwhelming, 519 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: had death threats, had you know, spoor stickers painted on 520 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 2: its garage. This was way back in the eighties nineties, 521 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: and he said, when the drag ice became a big 522 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: problem in country communities, you know, people started jumping the 523 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 2: dock and swearing at him and trying to attack him. 524 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: And he said, that's when we started to build glass 525 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 2: walls in country courtrooms. We'd actually just needed them to 526 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 2: keep people away away from us. And the court staff. 527 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: Ice has not improved things, hasn't. 528 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: No, it's made the life lot worse for police and 529 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: judges in the country. There is a really really bad 530 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: ice problem, and especially in a lot of towns like 531 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: Marie and our New South Wales. One case I wrote 532 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: about it was a judgment against two indigenous teenagers. They 533 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: one was I think twelve, when one was fifteen, and 534 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: they knew that their neighbor was going on a holiday 535 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: with her children, and she was an elderly lady, so 536 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: they assumed she might have some cash in the house. 537 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: She woke up in the middle of the night. She 538 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: could hear all this crashing and banging, and they broke 539 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: into her house with bricks. They smashed windows, smashed the door. 540 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: They bashed her with bricks and left her for dead. 541 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: She was just crawling on the ground and they took 542 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: her handbag, which had just a few hundred dollars in it. 543 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: She somehow survived that and crawled next door alerted. The 544 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: neighbors ended up in hospital. I saw the photos of 545 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: her horrendous injuries, and the really sad thing is Andrew 546 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: she couldn't go back to that house. She was too scared. 547 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: She moved out of town, moved into state with her family, 548 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: and the two kids were picked up pretty quickly because 549 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: they left fingerprints everywhere. So they got charged. They came 550 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: before a district court judge. He said, look, you've got 551 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 2: no structure in your lives. You don't go to school, 552 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: you don't have proper meals, you don't have parents looking 553 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: after you properly. So he thought that a custodial sentence 554 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: was the only way to maybe make a difference to 555 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: these kids' lives. So he gave them a couple of 556 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: years in juvenile detention. But then they appealed against it, 557 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: and a panel of judges in Sydney overturned it and 558 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: they walked free because they thought it was too severe. Now, 559 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: there were members of that local Maury community really angry 560 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: at that decision because they wanted to try and help 561 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: these kids see what they'd done was wrong. And there 562 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: were prison interviews that are part of the judgment, and 563 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: one of the kids says he's talking to a relative 564 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: and he says to the relative of oh, I'm not 565 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: sorry for what I did. She deserved it. There's a 566 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: twelve year old kid. 567 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: No, it's a wicked business. Well, Jamelle, we could talk 568 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: about this for ours. Is there so many fascinating cases 569 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: I have to say that, like most journals of our 570 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: vintage or my vintage, I've spent a bit of time 571 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: in courts, and I think that it's full of the 572 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: most human stories that if someone said to me, let's 573 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: start a new newspaper tomorrow, or a weekly newspaper, well, 574 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: perhaps an online newspaper, I reckon you could nearly base 575 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: one on courts. I just think it's full of very 576 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: human stories. And every week, somewhere in Australia there's a 577 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: great story unfolding in a courtroom. 578 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: Well that's very true. 579 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm in. 580 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: Is you do that, I'm in, I'll join you. 581 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: Yes, right. 582 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: There's just so much and I would encourage people. People 583 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: say to me, oh, how did you choose the country courtrooms? 584 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: You went into your latest book, And I essentially just 585 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: went on a few road trips and I drove around 586 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: and just dropped into courtrooms, and mostly I was welcome 587 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: because country court staff and magistrates don't get a lot 588 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: of attention. Quite often, the media doesn't report on them 589 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: quite often. I had a hostile reception. They drawed it 590 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: to throw me out, and they're just not used to 591 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: having the media in there and being under that sort 592 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: of scrutiny, and that's important because our system of justice, 593 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: you know, we meant to have open justice in Australia, 594 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: and the truth is, unless it's a closed court, any 595 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 2: of us can walk. 596 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: Into a court, which persons sort of took it on 597 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: himself to think they could throw you out or even 598 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: discuss it. 599 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 2: Mostly court officials. However, I did get thrown out of 600 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: Foster Local Court on the Mid North Coast for writing 601 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: because I dropped in there one day and all sorts 602 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: of fun things happened at Foster, like a guy who 603 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: stole a cat flap from Bunnings was up on a 604 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: charge of theft because he stole a cat flap and 605 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: then tried to get a refund at the cashiers could 606 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: master gruner. So I was sitting there and you know, 607 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: writing writing notes, and then the magistrate suddenly looked up 608 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 2: and he said, madam, stop writing. You know, the noise 609 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: is bothering me. And I was really embarrassed. So I 610 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: was tapping on my iPad, you know, because we're allowed 611 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 2: to take iPads. So I just said, I'm sorry, you're 612 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: on it, and I rested a notebook on my iPad 613 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: and started writing on the notebook, and he thought that 614 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: I disobeyed him and I was still taping on the iPad. 615 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: So he suddenly stopped and he said, get out, get 616 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 2: outside now. So these board country court officers, who had 617 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: nothing to do, you know, dived on me taking me outside. 618 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 2: They were so excited that they had something to do 619 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 2: and out in the foyer. I had to argue with 620 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: them to be let back in. I said, I'm I'm sorry. 621 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 2: I didn't mean to disturb the magistrate, but I am 622 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 2: allowed to take notes in court and here I'm writing 623 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: on a notebook. But in the foyer I made a 624 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 2: whole lot of new friends, all these people who are 625 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: up on dragging and driving churches. But I thought it 626 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: was really cool. And one of them goes, what did 627 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: you get chapped out for? And just said, I it's 628 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 2: nothing exciting. I just checked out for writing. It's not 629 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: nothings dramatic as you would think. But they thought it. 630 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: They were all rallied around, you know, they suddenly had 631 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: a cause. And one of them is yelling, he'd go on, 632 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: take your camera in there, take your camera in there. 633 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: I get and that wasst. 634 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: Is that magistrate get a bit of an airing in 635 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: your book. 636 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: He does, he definitely does us. 637 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Yes by name, Oh he gets named. Yes. 638 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: He did apologize because what I did. I googled myself 639 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: on my iPad and I gave it to the court 640 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: officer and I said, look, I am a journalist. I 641 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: am allowed in court. I'm sorry if I disturbed he 642 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: might am allowed to take notes. Please go back in. 643 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: And so about fifteen minutes later the court officers came 644 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 2: out and they apologized. But when I went back in, 645 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 2: I was like the elephant in the room because everyone 646 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 2: kept looking around, and the magistrate was very embarrassed. He said, 647 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 2: I'm very sorry, madam, there's been a misunderstanding. And then 648 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 2: at every lull in the proceedings he would look at me, 649 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: and then the staff would turn around and look at me. 650 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 2: It was was really funny. It was very great. 651 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: And who is that magistrate. 652 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: It's Magistrate Hardson from memory. Yeah, well that's a lot 653 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: of fun, a lot of fun. 654 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: A lot of fun. Well, you don't hold grudges. Good 655 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: on you. It's been a delight to talk to you. 656 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: It's fascinating that somebody's gone to the trouble to go 657 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: around and do that. And it is a very fertile 658 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: field and I look forward to I've started reading your book, 659 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: which I just just got recently, and I was hoping 660 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: to read more of it before we spoke, but I'm 661 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: going to read the rest of it this weekend. Can 662 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: you tell our listeners what it's called and where they 663 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: can get it? 664 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 2: So it's called out that Court Reporter and ABC Books 665 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: have the Colins and at all good bookstores online and 666 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: in bookshops if you just google out that Court Reporter 667 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 2: have the Collins, ABC Books. I think it's also in 668 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: the big big small words big W and clam out 669 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 2: and what not to, so it's pretty easily available. 670 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: It should go very well. Thank you to Melwells. And 671 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: I hope you want to Ripen at Sydney Royal all 672 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: those years ago. 673 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: Did you? Thank you very about joking with you. 674 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 675 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnny Burton. 676 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 677 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: com dot au, forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 678 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: advertising inquiries, go to News Podcasts sold at News dot 679 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's sold. 680 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: And if you want further information about this episode, links 681 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: are in the description.