Speaker 1: Tonight the Taliban taking Kabul, Afghanistan's capital and last government stronghold.
Speaker 1: Three years ago, the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan, marking
Speaker 1: the end of the twenty year experiment of democracy. Seven
Speaker 1: Afghanist died and a frantic scramble at the Kabl airport.
Speaker 1: I was seeing them in Humbis with Kalashnikov's guarding the
Speaker 1: entrances to buildings.
Speaker 2: Keith junctures roadblocks around the city.
Speaker 1: From his new home in Adelaide, Australia, Muzafa Ali watched
Speaker 1: warlords returning to the places he loved.
Speaker 2: It took less than three months for the Taliban to
Speaker 2: capture all Afghanistan. Afghanistan has thirty four provinces. One by one,
Speaker 2: it fall like Domino. So we had restless days and
Speaker 2: sleepless nights and wet eyes. As I saw the Kundi
Speaker 2: province where my wife and I got married, it collapsed
Speaker 2: under the Taliban on the fourteenth of August. And then
Speaker 2: Bamyan collapsed, the most beautiful place in Afghanistan where my
Speaker 2: daughter was born. It was so painful to see that
Speaker 2: Taliban are roaming around in those streets where we spend
Speaker 2: the best time of our life in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: After the fall of Kabul, Western journalists started describing Khalm
Speaker 1: on the streets and there are signs of normalcy creeping
Speaker 1: back onto the streets.
Speaker 2: The Taliban announced the government workers foreign journalists who were
Speaker 2: stuck in Kabul. That really bothered me. Why our stories
Speaker 2: are told by someone who has limited knowledge about Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: It was raving salt on our wounds to see that
Speaker 2: because the Taliban, they don't care about people's life.
Speaker 1: Mozafha felt that the reality of life under the Taliban
Speaker 1: was overlooked, so last month he decided to go back
Speaker 1: to his home country at great personal cost, and what
Speaker 1: he saw gave him hope. Girls and women risking their
Speaker 1: lives to be edgy catered, teachers, defying the Taliban, and
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan never shown to outsiders from Schwartz Media. I'm
Speaker 1: Ruby Jones. This is seven am today, as we mark
Speaker 1: the third anniversary of the fall of Kabul, Photographer and
Speaker 1: human rights activist mozafh Ali shows us he's Afghanistan. It's Wednesday,
Speaker 1: August fourteenth. Well, first of all, Masipah, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for talking to me today, for coming on the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure
Speaker 2: to talk to you.
Speaker 1: So, Mozifah, you fled the Taliban more than a decade ago.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what life was like at the
Speaker 1: time and why you decided to leave.
Speaker 2: So. I'm from Oriskan Province. I'm a Hasara and I
Speaker 2: worked in Afghanistan in the United Nations for seven years
Speaker 2: as political analyst. Honestly, my displacement is involuntary. I was
Speaker 2: happy in Afghanistan. I got a chance to study in
Speaker 2: Europe or settle in America, but several times I refused
Speaker 2: to leave my country. From my experience the Taliban, they
Speaker 2: are a terrorist group who don't care about the people's
Speaker 2: life and the rights of the people. When I joined
Speaker 2: you in two thousand and five, they hit my car
Speaker 2: by an ied. My driver slowed down at the speed
Speaker 2: and that's where the huge bank happened, and it got dark.
Speaker 2: I could see these big pebbles and filing on the car,
Speaker 2: and I was just stunned and sitting right in the
Speaker 2: middle of this blast and thinking about myself. Am I alive?
Speaker 2: I looked at the driver, he looked at me, and
Speaker 2: we were just stunted and we couldn't say anything, and
Speaker 2: we couldn't believe where it's still alive. My friends got
Speaker 2: killed when I was working in the UN I know
Speaker 2: said Muhammad was one of my friends. He was working
Speaker 2: with police and he was beheaded in Oroskan Province. There
Speaker 2: are so many examples, how many explosions I saw, how
Speaker 2: many friends I lost in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, as
Speaker 2: well as Taliban backed militants that killed a lot of Hazaras.
Speaker 1: So given that, given that the Taliban had tried to
Speaker 1: kill you in the past and had targeted your family,
Speaker 1: and that they had killed some of your friends, had
Speaker 1: headed one of your friends, how did you wei all
Speaker 1: of that up when you were deciding to go back?
Speaker 1: Were you frightened?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I went to Afghanistan in July after a couple
Speaker 2: of years for only thinking should I go or not?
Speaker 2: But I finally got a decision that I will go,
Speaker 2: and I will go prepared and I will have a
Speaker 2: purpose in my mind. I got a permission from my wife,
Speaker 2: I talked with my daughters. Because I knew the risk
Speaker 2: entailed to this trip, I decided to keep my identity
Speaker 2: as low and obscure as possible. I stopped using social
Speaker 2: media six months ago. My digital footprints were limited everywhere,
Speaker 2: and I kept this secret just to minimize any possibility
Speaker 2: of Taliban recognizing me and arresting me. I was just
Speaker 2: another person in Afghanistan, another Hazara in Afghanistan where I
Speaker 2: observed quietly what is happening in the streets. But that
Speaker 2: was definitely a risky trip where Taliban stopped me three times.
Speaker 2: They interrogated me three times, but I escaped alive.
Speaker 1: Why did they stop you and what happened?
Speaker 2: So when I bought my camera from Adelaide, my friend
Speaker 2: who was a prominent photographer in Afransan, he told me, Muzafre,
Speaker 2: you know, you need a license for your camera if
Speaker 2: you want to take photo, and you have to go
Speaker 2: to Taliban's Ministry of Art and Culture to get their permission.
Speaker 2: So they are scared of camera. Actually they don't allow
Speaker 2: people to take photos in these streets. And even if
Speaker 2: someone is making a video, so if he posts this
Speaker 2: video on internet like YouTube or on social media, he
Speaker 2: will be responsible for consequences because Taliban don't want any
Speaker 2: images or any video without their permission. I was really
Speaker 2: shocked to hear that, but I was carrying my camera
Speaker 2: concealed in my bag and with a hope that I
Speaker 2: would find someplace to take some photos. But then I
Speaker 2: was stopped in Orosgan where the Taliban. I was going
Speaker 2: to a mountain where in Orozgan host District where a
Speaker 2: Taliban stopped me. He said, what is this? I was
Speaker 2: just thinking, maybe he doesn't know what camera is. I said,
Speaker 2: this is not a camera, this is a binocular. He
Speaker 2: was surprised. He said, what kind of binocular is this?
Speaker 2: I haven't seen anything like this, So I had to
Speaker 2: skip past him and I just left quickly before he
Speaker 2: would come and see that it's actually a camera, not
Speaker 2: a binocular.
Speaker 1: That's very fast thinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the lesson I learned was that yes, it
Speaker 2: is really dangerous to carry a tem in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: After the break illegal schools and graveyard picnics, the ordinary
Speaker 1: people resisting Taliban rule was value. You returned to your
Speaker 1: home country with your camera because you wanted to document
Speaker 1: what Western journalists miss about life under the Taliban. So
Speaker 1: where did you go and who did you speak to?
Speaker 2: I will be very careful about the exact locations of
Speaker 2: my trip, where I went and the real identities of
Speaker 2: those people that I met.
Speaker 1: That's to protect them, just to protect.
Speaker 2: Them, to keep them safe. I spent one week in
Speaker 2: Kabul and that's where I visited several underground schools. So
Speaker 2: before Taliban's takeover, these schools were openly providing education. But
Speaker 2: since Taliban came in their decree that the girls are
Speaker 2: not allowed to get high school education, so they from outside.
Speaker 2: They tend to provide primary school education for girls and
Speaker 2: high school education for boys, but in reality they also
Speaker 2: provide high school education for girls as well. I went
Speaker 2: these places to see how the women are feeling under
Speaker 2: the Taliban regime. So I went to grade seven where
Speaker 2: there were about sixty students. I was really emotional because
Speaker 2: this year is my daughter's high school year. She's in
Speaker 2: her first year of high school in Adelaide. She's in
Speaker 2: grade seven, and when I saw grade seven students, that
Speaker 2: was really emotional for me to see that how lucky
Speaker 2: my daughter is. She is thoroughly enjoying her freedom as
Speaker 2: a high school student in Australia, but this is not
Speaker 2: the case with girls of Afghanistan. The principle of that
Speaker 2: school said, we are providing education, but our education is
Speaker 2: considered illegal quote in court illegal. So I remember that
Speaker 2: the day when I visited, the principal told me that
Speaker 2: Taliban have summoned all private school principles in a mosque
Speaker 2: for an important meeting. So after that meeting, I called
Speaker 2: this principle, I said, what was the message from the Taliban.
Speaker 2: He told me that the message was that the girls
Speaker 2: cannot get education in high school. So the principal should
Speaker 2: obey and follow that decree.
Speaker 1: Right, So what is at stake for these girls and
Speaker 1: their teachers if they don't follow the decree.
Speaker 2: At steak is their life. Actually, while I was working
Speaker 2: in the UN, we were receiving a lot of reports
Speaker 2: in Orozgan, in Hellman Province, in Kandahar that they were
Speaker 2: burning schools, they were killing teachers because traditionally Taliban are
Speaker 2: not in favor of girls and women to get education
Speaker 2: because they think they should be kept at home and
Speaker 2: their duties and responsibilities are different from men. So yes,
Speaker 2: at one side we see the tragic incidents, the risks
Speaker 2: for the girls' education, But I'm more amazed with the
Speaker 2: resilience of these girls and women that as soon as
Speaker 2: their school is blown up, they come back, they restart
Speaker 2: their classes, even if they know that there is no
Speaker 2: pathway for them to pursue any career or become any
Speaker 2: independent woman. This message from them is that they're not
Speaker 2: giving up their hopes and they're refusing to give up
Speaker 2: their dreams. Inside, they know that this is a basic
Speaker 2: human right, and they continue with this and they fight it.
Speaker 2: So I really salute these teachers who are doing everything
Speaker 2: to make sure these girls get education.
Speaker 1: What did being in these schools and seeing these girls
Speaker 1: tell you about how girls and women in Afghanistan are
Speaker 1: responding to Taliban rule?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Taliban have failed. I have seen it in kabble
Speaker 2: in the streets when Taliban bent women to come out
Speaker 2: of their home, at least this Hazara neighborhood in west
Speaker 2: of Kabul dash de Bachi. Hazara women don't care about
Speaker 2: this degree. They come out as normal as they can,
Speaker 2: with their beautiful traditional dresses cloth, they come out, they
Speaker 2: don't cover their face. And when I was in cable,
Speaker 2: literally for women where they were freely allowed to go
Speaker 2: was the graveyard. I saw graveyards becoming picnic spot for
Speaker 2: the women where they would go pretending to be praying
Speaker 2: there for their loved ones. Of course they did, but
Speaker 2: they would take some food with them some snacks with
Speaker 2: them and other women would come and talk together. That
Speaker 2: was literally the only public place where the women were
Speaker 2: allowed to go. And some of them have small businesses.
Speaker 2: I saw one thirteen year old girl having an ice
Speaker 2: cream vendor near Taliban checkpost. That was a big hope
Speaker 2: for me. I was just thinking, this is what we need,
Speaker 2: this is what the civil movements are, the grassroots movements
Speaker 2: are to defy Taliban. I think we have to focus
Speaker 2: on those individual heroes as well.
Speaker 1: What do you think the main differences of our between
Speaker 1: the image that we get of Afghanistan from the outside
Speaker 1: and the place that you saw for yourself when you visited,
Speaker 1: That is.
Speaker 2: A huge difference. My approach is that I show normal
Speaker 2: life of the people of Afghanistan. That is the significant
Speaker 2: majority of the people of Afghanistan, and they're beautiful. The
Speaker 2: places are beautiful. Naturally, the news and the media goes
Speaker 2: towards Violen's war, which could attract more attention, and I
Speaker 2: think we need to pay attention to the aspiration of
Speaker 2: the people as well. At the time where the truth
Speaker 2: is hard to tell, it's must to tell the truth.
Speaker 2: And I'm happy that I came back with all my
Speaker 2: photographs intact safe, no one saw it. It's with me,
Speaker 2: of those schools, of those brave women teachers there with me,
Speaker 2: and we are here now commemorating the fall of Kabul
Speaker 2: the third year. And I would love to raise voice
Speaker 2: on behalf of those girls who are not allowed to
Speaker 2: get education, those people, the Hazaras who are suffering under
Speaker 2: the Taliban rule. I have all their photos and I
Speaker 2: want to be their voice.
Speaker 1: Well, Muzpah, thank you so much for talking to me
Speaker 1: about your trip. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Ruby.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, former Prime Minister Scott Morrison
Speaker 1: has testified at the defamation trial between WA Senator Linda
Speaker 1: Reynolds and her ex staffer Britney Higgins. Senator Reynolds is
Speaker 1: suing Miss Higgins over a series of social media posts
Speaker 1: which the senator claims damaged her reputation. Scott Morrison told
Speaker 1: the court that the Labor Party had weaponized miss higgins
Speaker 1: rape allegation and that he was forced to remove Senator
Speaker 1: Reynolds as Defense Minister over mental health concerns and after
Speaker 1: a forty minute delay due to technical errors. Billionaire Elon
Speaker 1: Musk has hosted an interview with former US President Donald
Speaker 1: Trump on his social media website x. The live streamed
Speaker 1: conversation lasted over two hours, during which the pair discussed
Speaker 1: Trump's assassination attempt and Trump praised Elon Musk for laying
Speaker 1: off Tesla workers. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Speaker 2: See you tomorrow