WEBVTT - Inside the illegal underground schools for Afghan girls

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<v Speaker 1>Tonight the Taliban taking Kabul, Afghanistan's capital and last government stronghold.

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<v Speaker 1>Three years ago, the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan, marking

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the twenty year experiment of democracy. Seven

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<v Speaker 1>Afghanist died and a frantic scramble at the Kabl airport.

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<v Speaker 1>I was seeing them in Humbis with Kalashnikov's guarding the

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<v Speaker 1>entrances to buildings.

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<v Speaker 2>Keith junctures roadblocks around the city.

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<v Speaker 1>From his new home in Adelaide, Australia, Muzafa Ali watched

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<v Speaker 1>warlords returning to the places he loved.

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<v Speaker 2>It took less than three months for the Taliban to

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<v Speaker 2>capture all Afghanistan. Afghanistan has thirty four provinces. One by one,

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<v Speaker 2>it fall like Domino. So we had restless days and

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<v Speaker 2>sleepless nights and wet eyes. As I saw the Kundi

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<v Speaker 2>province where my wife and I got married, it collapsed

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<v Speaker 2>under the Taliban on the fourteenth of August. And then

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<v Speaker 2>Bamyan collapsed, the most beautiful place in Afghanistan where my

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<v Speaker 2>daughter was born. It was so painful to see that

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<v Speaker 2>Taliban are roaming around in those streets where we spend

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<v Speaker 2>the best time of our life in Afghanistan.

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<v Speaker 1>After the fall of Kabul, Western journalists started describing Khalm

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<v Speaker 1>on the streets and there are signs of normalcy creeping

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<v Speaker 1>back onto the streets.

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<v Speaker 2>The Taliban announced the government workers foreign journalists who were

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<v Speaker 2>stuck in Kabul. That really bothered me. Why our stories

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<v Speaker 2>are told by someone who has limited knowledge about Afghanistan.

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<v Speaker 2>It was raving salt on our wounds to see that

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<v Speaker 2>because the Taliban, they don't care about people's life.

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<v Speaker 1>Mozafha felt that the reality of life under the Taliban

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<v Speaker 1>was overlooked, so last month he decided to go back

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<v Speaker 1>to his home country at great personal cost, and what

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<v Speaker 1>he saw gave him hope. Girls and women risking their

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<v Speaker 1>lives to be edgy catered, teachers, defying the Taliban, and

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<v Speaker 1>in Afghanistan never shown to outsiders from Schwartz Media. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. This is seven am today, as we mark

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<v Speaker 1>the third anniversary of the fall of Kabul, Photographer and

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<v Speaker 1>human rights activist mozafh Ali shows us he's Afghanistan. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 1>August fourteenth. Well, first of all, Masipah, thank you so

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<v Speaker 1>much for talking to me today, for coming on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to you.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Mozifah, you fled the Taliban more than a decade ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me what life was like at the

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<v Speaker 1>time and why you decided to leave.

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<v Speaker 2>So. I'm from Oriskan Province. I'm a Hasara and I

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<v Speaker 2>worked in Afghanistan in the United Nations for seven years

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<v Speaker 2>as political analyst. Honestly, my displacement is involuntary. I was

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<v Speaker 2>happy in Afghanistan. I got a chance to study in

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<v Speaker 2>Europe or settle in America, but several times I refused

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<v Speaker 2>to leave my country. From my experience the Taliban, they

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<v Speaker 2>are a terrorist group who don't care about the people's

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<v Speaker 2>life and the rights of the people. When I joined

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<v Speaker 2>you in two thousand and five, they hit my car

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<v Speaker 2>by an ied. My driver slowed down at the speed

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<v Speaker 2>and that's where the huge bank happened, and it got dark.

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<v Speaker 2>I could see these big pebbles and filing on the car,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was just stunned and sitting right in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of this blast and thinking about myself. Am I alive?

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<v Speaker 2>I looked at the driver, he looked at me, and

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<v Speaker 2>we were just stunted and we couldn't say anything, and

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<v Speaker 2>we couldn't believe where it's still alive. My friends got

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<v Speaker 2>killed when I was working in the UN I know

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<v Speaker 2>said Muhammad was one of my friends. He was working

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<v Speaker 2>with police and he was beheaded in Oroskan Province. There

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<v Speaker 2>are so many examples, how many explosions I saw, how

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<v Speaker 2>many friends I lost in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, as

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<v Speaker 2>well as Taliban backed militants that killed a lot of Hazaras.

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<v Speaker 1>So given that, given that the Taliban had tried to

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<v Speaker 1>kill you in the past and had targeted your family,

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<v Speaker 1>and that they had killed some of your friends, had

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<v Speaker 1>headed one of your friends, how did you wei all

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<v Speaker 1>of that up when you were deciding to go back?

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<v Speaker 1>Were you frightened?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? I went to Afghanistan in July after a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of years for only thinking should I go or not?

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<v Speaker 2>But I finally got a decision that I will go,

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<v Speaker 2>and I will go prepared and I will have a

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<v Speaker 2>purpose in my mind. I got a permission from my wife,

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<v Speaker 2>I talked with my daughters. Because I knew the risk

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<v Speaker 2>entailed to this trip, I decided to keep my identity

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<v Speaker 2>as low and obscure as possible. I stopped using social

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<v Speaker 2>media six months ago. My digital footprints were limited everywhere,

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<v Speaker 2>and I kept this secret just to minimize any possibility

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<v Speaker 2>of Taliban recognizing me and arresting me. I was just

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<v Speaker 2>another person in Afghanistan, another Hazara in Afghanistan where I

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<v Speaker 2>observed quietly what is happening in the streets. But that

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<v Speaker 2>was definitely a risky trip where Taliban stopped me three times.

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<v Speaker 2>They interrogated me three times, but I escaped alive.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did they stop you and what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>So when I bought my camera from Adelaide, my friend

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<v Speaker 2>who was a prominent photographer in Afransan, he told me, Muzafre,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you need a license for your camera if

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<v Speaker 2>you want to take photo, and you have to go

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<v Speaker 2>to Taliban's Ministry of Art and Culture to get their permission.

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<v Speaker 2>So they are scared of camera. Actually they don't allow

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<v Speaker 2>people to take photos in these streets. And even if

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<v Speaker 2>someone is making a video, so if he posts this

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<v Speaker 2>video on internet like YouTube or on social media, he

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<v Speaker 2>will be responsible for consequences because Taliban don't want any

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<v Speaker 2>images or any video without their permission. I was really

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<v Speaker 2>shocked to hear that, but I was carrying my camera

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<v Speaker 2>concealed in my bag and with a hope that I

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<v Speaker 2>would find someplace to take some photos. But then I

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<v Speaker 2>was stopped in Orosgan where the Taliban. I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to a mountain where in Orozgan host District where a

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<v Speaker 2>Taliban stopped me. He said, what is this? I was

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<v Speaker 2>just thinking, maybe he doesn't know what camera is. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is not a camera, this is a binocular. He

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<v Speaker 2>was surprised. He said, what kind of binocular is this?

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen anything like this, So I had to

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<v Speaker 2>skip past him and I just left quickly before he

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<v Speaker 2>would come and see that it's actually a camera, not

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<v Speaker 2>a binocular.

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<v Speaker 1>That's very fast thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and the lesson I learned was that yes, it

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<v Speaker 2>is really dangerous to carry a tem in Afghanistan.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break illegal schools and graveyard picnics, the ordinary

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<v Speaker 1>people resisting Taliban rule was value. You returned to your

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<v Speaker 1>home country with your camera because you wanted to document

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<v Speaker 1>what Western journalists miss about life under the Taliban. So

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<v Speaker 1>where did you go and who did you speak to?

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<v Speaker 2>I will be very careful about the exact locations of

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<v Speaker 2>my trip, where I went and the real identities of

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<v Speaker 2>those people that I met.

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<v Speaker 1>That's to protect them, just to protect.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, to keep them safe. I spent one week in

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<v Speaker 2>Kabul and that's where I visited several underground schools. So

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<v Speaker 2>before Taliban's takeover, these schools were openly providing education. But

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<v Speaker 2>since Taliban came in their decree that the girls are

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<v Speaker 2>not allowed to get high school education, so they from outside.

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<v Speaker 2>They tend to provide primary school education for girls and

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<v Speaker 2>high school education for boys, but in reality they also

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<v Speaker 2>provide high school education for girls as well. I went

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<v Speaker 2>these places to see how the women are feeling under

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<v Speaker 2>the Taliban regime. So I went to grade seven where

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<v Speaker 2>there were about sixty students. I was really emotional because

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<v Speaker 2>this year is my daughter's high school year. She's in

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<v Speaker 2>her first year of high school in Adelaide. She's in

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<v Speaker 2>grade seven, and when I saw grade seven students, that

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<v Speaker 2>was really emotional for me to see that how lucky

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter is. She is thoroughly enjoying her freedom as

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<v Speaker 2>a high school student in Australia, but this is not

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<v Speaker 2>the case with girls of Afghanistan. The principle of that

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<v Speaker 2>school said, we are providing education, but our education is

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<v Speaker 2>considered illegal quote in court illegal. So I remember that

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<v Speaker 2>the day when I visited, the principal told me that

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<v Speaker 2>Taliban have summoned all private school principles in a mosque

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<v Speaker 2>for an important meeting. So after that meeting, I called

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<v Speaker 2>this principle, I said, what was the message from the Taliban.

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<v Speaker 2>He told me that the message was that the girls

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<v Speaker 2>cannot get education in high school. So the principal should

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<v Speaker 2>obey and follow that decree.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So what is at stake for these girls and

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<v Speaker 1>their teachers if they don't follow the decree.

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<v Speaker 2>At steak is their life. Actually, while I was working

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<v Speaker 2>in the UN, we were receiving a lot of reports

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<v Speaker 2>in Orozgan, in Hellman Province, in Kandahar that they were

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<v Speaker 2>burning schools, they were killing teachers because traditionally Taliban are

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<v Speaker 2>not in favor of girls and women to get education

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<v Speaker 2>because they think they should be kept at home and

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<v Speaker 2>their duties and responsibilities are different from men. So yes,

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<v Speaker 2>at one side we see the tragic incidents, the risks

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<v Speaker 2>for the girls' education, But I'm more amazed with the

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<v Speaker 2>resilience of these girls and women that as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>their school is blown up, they come back, they restart

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<v Speaker 2>their classes, even if they know that there is no

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<v Speaker 2>pathway for them to pursue any career or become any

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<v Speaker 2>independent woman. This message from them is that they're not

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<v Speaker 2>giving up their hopes and they're refusing to give up

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<v Speaker 2>their dreams. Inside, they know that this is a basic

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<v Speaker 2>human right, and they continue with this and they fight it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I really salute these teachers who are doing everything

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure these girls get education.

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<v Speaker 1>What did being in these schools and seeing these girls

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<v Speaker 1>tell you about how girls and women in Afghanistan are

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<v Speaker 1>responding to Taliban rule?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Taliban have failed. I have seen it in kabble

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<v Speaker 2>in the streets when Taliban bent women to come out

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<v Speaker 2>of their home, at least this Hazara neighborhood in west

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<v Speaker 2>of Kabul dash de Bachi. Hazara women don't care about

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<v Speaker 2>this degree. They come out as normal as they can,

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<v Speaker 2>with their beautiful traditional dresses cloth, they come out, they

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<v Speaker 2>don't cover their face. And when I was in cable,

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<v Speaker 2>literally for women where they were freely allowed to go

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<v Speaker 2>was the graveyard. I saw graveyards becoming picnic spot for

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<v Speaker 2>the women where they would go pretending to be praying

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<v Speaker 2>there for their loved ones. Of course they did, but

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<v Speaker 2>they would take some food with them some snacks with

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<v Speaker 2>them and other women would come and talk together. That

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<v Speaker 2>was literally the only public place where the women were

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to go. And some of them have small businesses.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw one thirteen year old girl having an ice

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<v Speaker 2>cream vendor near Taliban checkpost. That was a big hope

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<v Speaker 2>for me. I was just thinking, this is what we need,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what the civil movements are, the grassroots movements

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<v Speaker 2>are to defy Taliban. I think we have to focus

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<v Speaker 2>on those individual heroes as well.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think the main differences of our between

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<v Speaker 1>the image that we get of Afghanistan from the outside

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<v Speaker 1>and the place that you saw for yourself when you visited,

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<v Speaker 1>That is.

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<v Speaker 2>A huge difference. My approach is that I show normal

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<v Speaker 2>life of the people of Afghanistan. That is the significant

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<v Speaker 2>majority of the people of Afghanistan, and they're beautiful. The

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<v Speaker 2>places are beautiful. Naturally, the news and the media goes

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<v Speaker 2>towards Violen's war, which could attract more attention, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think we need to pay attention to the aspiration of

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<v Speaker 2>the people as well. At the time where the truth

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<v Speaker 2>is hard to tell, it's must to tell the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm happy that I came back with all my

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<v Speaker 2>photographs intact safe, no one saw it. It's with me,

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<v Speaker 2>of those schools, of those brave women teachers there with me,

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<v Speaker 2>and we are here now commemorating the fall of Kabul

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<v Speaker 2>the third year. And I would love to raise voice

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<v Speaker 2>on behalf of those girls who are not allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>get education, those people, the Hazaras who are suffering under

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<v Speaker 2>the Taliban rule. I have all their photos and I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be their voice.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Muzpah, thank you so much for talking to me

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<v Speaker 1>about your trip. I really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. Ruby.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, former Prime Minister Scott Morrison

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<v Speaker 1>has testified at the defamation trial between WA Senator Linda

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<v Speaker 1>Reynolds and her ex staffer Britney Higgins. Senator Reynolds is

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<v Speaker 1>suing Miss Higgins over a series of social media posts

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<v Speaker 1>which the senator claims damaged her reputation. Scott Morrison told

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<v Speaker 1>the court that the Labor Party had weaponized miss higgins

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<v Speaker 1>rape allegation and that he was forced to remove Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Reynolds as Defense Minister over mental health concerns and after

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<v Speaker 1>a forty minute delay due to technical errors. Billionaire Elon

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<v Speaker 1>Musk has hosted an interview with former US President Donald

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<v Speaker 1>Trump on his social media website x. The live streamed

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<v Speaker 1>conversation lasted over two hours, during which the pair discussed

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's assassination attempt and Trump praised Elon Musk for laying

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<v Speaker 1>off Tesla workers. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 2>See you tomorrow