Speaker 1: Apoday production.
Speaker 2: We begin today by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the
Speaker 2: land on which we gather today and pay our respects
Speaker 2: to their elders past and present. We extend that respect
Speaker 2: to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's here today.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Grow and Glow Podcast. I'm Ashy, I'm Kiara.
Speaker 3: This is a podcast where we learn, laugh, and level
Speaker 3: up together.
Speaker 4: Let's go deep, let.
Speaker 5: The emotions flow, and find the lessons to.
Speaker 4: Grow and Glow. Nothing is off the table with Grow
Speaker 4: and Glow, and we're here to be your expander. Hello everybody,
Speaker 4: welcome back to Grow and Glow.
Speaker 5: I'm so excited.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh episode. I'm so excited because I have
Speaker 4: my favorite person on Earth here today, my beautiful mom.
Speaker 4: Hello Mom, Slash Wendy, good morning. How are you feeling
Speaker 4: to be on here? Because I was just explaining to
Speaker 4: our producer and to Kiara that you're the complete opposite
Speaker 4: to me. You're very introvert, you don't like the camera,
Speaker 4: you don't like any attention on you. We're very pole opposite.
Speaker 4: So how you feel to be interviewed today?
Speaker 1: I'm feeling pretty nervous, which I think is probably natural,
Speaker 1: but I'm excited at the same time. It's like, what
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is something I haven't really
Speaker 1: talked in detail with you about before, so it's going
Speaker 1: to be good to sort of like maybe answer some
Speaker 1: questions that are there that we've just never got around
Speaker 1: to talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I feel like the last couple of years
Speaker 4: our relationship has just gone from strength to strength, and
Speaker 4: you and I separately and within our relationship have just
Speaker 4: gone leaps and bounds and we've grown so much, and
Speaker 4: like even ask your how much I just speak so
Speaker 4: highly of you and how much you are doing the
Speaker 4: work and just owning your stuff. You're my safe place,
Speaker 4: like even with stuff from my childhood that's been really
Speaker 4: hard that I'm sure is not easy for you to
Speaker 4: hear or you're like, fuck, I don't remember it being
Speaker 4: like that. But you never once gas like me, You
Speaker 4: never once say that didn't have and you never once
Speaker 4: like make me feel I don't know bad for anything.
Speaker 4: You're always just like fully hold that space to hear
Speaker 4: me in my experience, and that has been so healing
Speaker 4: for me. And I know from experience with a lot
Speaker 4: of people that I know they don't have parents that
Speaker 4: do that. So first of all, I just want to
Speaker 4: like acknowledge that within you, and for you to come
Speaker 4: on here today and talk about my upbringing and our
Speaker 4: story together and some really fucking hard times that we've
Speaker 4: been through. It's just so brave of you, and I'm
Speaker 4: so proud, and I know that so many people listening
Speaker 4: to this will one relate to it so much, but
Speaker 4: to also be like, oh, maybe I can heal some
Speaker 4: things in my life, and if they can get through that,
Speaker 4: then wow, look what I can get through.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you. That's just so lovely to hear. Like
Speaker 1: you can't imagine as a mum, how good it is
Speaker 1: to have the sort of relationship that you and I have,
Speaker 1: And I think like it hasn't always been as close,
Speaker 1: but we've really built it. But my philosophy is massively
Speaker 1: these days that we are continuing to grow and evolve
Speaker 1: as humans and the only way to do that really
Speaker 1: is to look with compassion on ourselves as well as
Speaker 1: those around us. So, yeah, I've not been coping with
Speaker 1: life lots of times a wrong road, but I try
Speaker 1: to look at it now and go I've learned from
Speaker 1: that experience and I'm a better person than I was,
Speaker 1: and I'll be a better person still going forward. The
Speaker 1: more I learn, And if you have that sort of attitude,
Speaker 1: then I think it's a lot easier to be kinder
Speaker 1: to yourself and others and develop better relationships.
Speaker 4: Is she not the most You're amazing woman ever? Amazing?
Speaker 4: I really want to rewind it back to when you
Speaker 4: were a young mum. You had my older brother, Matt,
Speaker 4: and then eighteen months later you had me. Can you
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about your life as a
Speaker 4: young mum with my father and how that dynamic was
Speaker 4: when I got really sick? Kind of in a nutshell
Speaker 4: that story.
Speaker 1: It's quite a complicated story really because your father and
Speaker 1: I probably I think we met in September, got engaged
Speaker 1: in December, and were married in April.
Speaker 4: Wow, you mum.
Speaker 1: I was just turned twenty.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: A lot of it was to do with like the
Speaker 1: dynamics of my family before I got to that stage.
Speaker 1: Is my father really chose him as my husband? He
Speaker 1: pretty much put it out there to me, you need
Speaker 1: to marry this guy that you're dating because no one
Speaker 1: else is probably going to want you. And I knew
Speaker 1: pretty much that I wasn't in love with him, but
Speaker 1: I went along with what Dad wanted. The day of
Speaker 1: the wedding, I wanted to call it off. I was like,
Speaker 1: woke up crying, like I just really don't want to
Speaker 1: do this, and my dad said, drink this and gave
Speaker 1: me a brandy, which I didn't drink, so that was significant.
Speaker 1: I had a glass of brandy, stopped crying and went
Speaker 1: on with it. But I knew, like I cut the
Speaker 1: honeymoon short because I knew that it was not right
Speaker 1: for me. And I went home to Mum and Dad's
Speaker 1: house and I said, an, this has just been a
Speaker 1: terrible mistake. The rules back then were basically that you
Speaker 1: were a bad person if you slept together or lived
Speaker 1: together before you got married. I think if I'd lived
Speaker 1: with him for a week, I would not have gone
Speaker 1: through with that wedding.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, unfortunately, I just played by the
Speaker 1: rules that I was told, So I've cut the honeymoon short.
Speaker 1: Came home and he wasn't a bad person, don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong, but he was very placid and I was
Speaker 1: very fiery, and I had no one to bounce against.
Speaker 1: We were okay as friends, but really missed match as
Speaker 1: a couple, and my dad said to me, turn around
Speaker 1: and go back to your husband. You've made your bed
Speaker 1: and you have to lie on it. Wow. And then
Speaker 1: he also said, in a year's time, if you still
Speaker 1: don't want to go ahead with this marriage anymore, you
Speaker 1: can come back to me and then we'll talk about it. Well,
Speaker 1: a year later, I was just pregnant with Matt, so
Speaker 1: I decided that the universe had spoken, I was pregnant,
Speaker 1: that this marriage was meant to be, and I just
Speaker 1: carry on with it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you had Matt.
Speaker 1: So I had Matt, and I desperately wanted another child.
Speaker 1: I don't think Dean was very sold on parenting at all,
Speaker 1: but he went along with what I wanted, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to have a second child. I had trouble conceivings
Speaker 1: and I really didn't want to sleep with him, so
Speaker 1: I got fertility drugs to conceive you. So I only
Speaker 1: had to go there one time and to laugh about
Speaker 1: reading between the lines, Yeah, one.
Speaker 4: Time it done. I'm sure someone that are listening just
Speaker 4: been like, yep, got what.
Speaker 1: I wanted back to baby, and all through the pregnancy,
Speaker 1: I just I pretty much knew it was not going
Speaker 1: to survive. Yeah, and I left him when you were
Speaker 1: already sick. I think it was about six weeks old
Speaker 1: you started to get sick, and I left him when
Speaker 1: you were eight weeks old, so Matt wasn't quite too
Speaker 1: and you were eight weeks old, and I jumped on
Speaker 1: a plane with my two babies and went back to
Speaker 1: New Zealand and within twenty four hours you were in
Speaker 1: hospital and bleeding from the bow. So it was all
Speaker 1: very dramatic. And at the stage, I'm twenty four.
Speaker 4: And that call that you made to yeah, you were
Speaker 4: what I said.
Speaker 1: You were in hospital for the best part of six months,
Speaker 1: like in and out and in and out, because salmonella
Speaker 1: was really having devastating effects on your system. That it
Speaker 1: was like they were concerned that your kidneys were going
Speaker 1: to break down, that sort of thing. And at one
Speaker 1: stage doctor said to me that they really were concerned
Speaker 1: that you weren't going to make it. So I rang
Speaker 1: Dean and told him that there were concerns about that,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, yeah, just let me know if
Speaker 1: she dies and I'll see if I can come back
Speaker 1: for the funeral.
Speaker 4: I don't know why I laugh, Am I laughing? I
Speaker 4: just it's actually like so hard to fathom as a
Speaker 4: parent have a dad, Like I don't know why am
Speaker 4: I giggling, but like, oh yeah, let me know if
Speaker 4: she passes, and I will see if I can pop
Speaker 4: over for the funeral of my daughter. Like what.
Speaker 1: I mean? It is weird, But I've always sort of
Speaker 1: justified that he didn't have a bond with you, and
Speaker 1: he didn't have a bond with Matt either. Matt never
Speaker 1: once said dad or asked for him because he worked
Speaker 1: all the time, he was just never there, so there
Speaker 1: was no bond to break. It made it so easy
Speaker 1: for me as a single parent. I didn't have to
Speaker 1: share custody. He didn't care that I took you to
Speaker 1: a other countries.
Speaker 4: Did even fight at all? Did he like he didn't
Speaker 4: want to?
Speaker 1: Didn't He did the opposite. He wrote a letter to
Speaker 1: the judge saying that he was happy for me to
Speaker 1: have full custody.
Speaker 4: Isn't that mind blowing?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And I was so grateful, honestly took
Speaker 1: away all the hassles in my life. I didn't have
Speaker 1: to balance anything. But the repercussions I think on the
Speaker 1: children later on, is that it's left both you and
Speaker 1: Matt feeling unwanted, Whereas I think it was a continuation
Speaker 1: for him of what he'd always done is tried to
Speaker 1: give me what I wanted, but not succeeding, and that
Speaker 1: was just one more on the list of not succeeding.
Speaker 4: I think you've made up for those feelings of not
Speaker 4: being wanted and being abandoned. I think because our bond
Speaker 4: is so strong, you're enough for me. Like, obviously, as
Speaker 4: a young girl, that was really hard because I was like,
Speaker 4: why does my real dad not want me? And why
Speaker 4: is my stepdad fucking hate my guards? Like major daddy issues, right,
Speaker 4: But as I've grown up and done my own inner
Speaker 4: word and webso bonded now I feel like you are
Speaker 4: more than enough. And I know some people don't even
Speaker 4: have either parents, so I feel so grateful for that.
Speaker 4: And then from there comes along my stepdad.
Speaker 1: So I'd had a couple of years as a single
Speaker 1: mum and we were living in a rural situation, so
Speaker 1: obviously not meeting a lot of people. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was divorced at twenty five, with two small children in
Speaker 1: the house with me and really not a lot of
Speaker 1: adult company, so I was pretty lonely. I'd had one
Speaker 1: relationship that I ended because I just wasn't working for me,
Speaker 1: and you really loved him, so that was hard. But
Speaker 1: when I met Andrew, it was at a primary school
Speaker 1: bar dance and some people up the road had invited
Speaker 1: me to go meet their friends and go to this
Speaker 1: bar dance which was raising money for the local primary school,
Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed it. It was adult company. He
Speaker 1: was there with his girlfriend at the time, and I
Speaker 1: just had a great time chatting to adults, you know,
Speaker 1: enjoying the barn dance. Nice evening went home, and about
Speaker 1: three months later, these same friends that had hosted that
Speaker 1: evening came back to me and said, oh, our friend Andrew,
Speaker 1: he really wants your phone number. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's awesome, Like he looked like a nice guy as
Speaker 1: he'd broken up with his girlfriend. And they were like, yep, no,
Speaker 1: that's all over. But he's been wanting your number for
Speaker 1: three months and we haven't given it to him because
Speaker 1: we don't think he's good enough for you. And I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, that's really weird. But I can make
Speaker 1: up my own decisions about people. That's okay, give him
Speaker 1: my number and they were really insistent, now we don't
Speaker 1: really want to. And the end we agreed to go
Speaker 1: on a first date that involved this wife of this
Speaker 1: couple and her four kids and me and my two kids,
Speaker 1: and he would take the two of us out so
Speaker 1: I could see if I thought he was creepy or
Speaker 1: like they were not good enough.
Speaker 4: Did I like Andrew? Straight up?
Speaker 1: He saved in life that first date.
Speaker 4: Oh that's right. In the water.
Speaker 1: Part of the date was we all went for a
Speaker 1: walk at the beach. You stepped out and it must
Speaker 1: have been like a deep drop. Next minute, there's no
Speaker 1: ash anywhere. We're all looking at each other as adults,
Speaker 1: and he just leapt into the water and dragged you
Speaker 1: off the bottom. So like to me, it was instant hero.
Speaker 4: True wow. That would have been a really big attraction
Speaker 4: of like this man.
Speaker 1: Wow. On the same date, there was a woman who
Speaker 1: was parked somewhere and her car had a flat tire
Speaker 1: and he'd leaped out and gone and changed your tire
Speaker 1: for us. So I'm getting the whole hero opening the
Speaker 1: door for me, fussing over my kids, laughing with you,
Speaker 1: and I was like starved of affectionate, I think basically
Speaker 1: and that he just looked like the best thing ever.
Speaker 4: You obviously started dating. When did things turn because it
Speaker 4: was quite quickly, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was again a fast relationship. So we were
Speaker 1: living together probably within about three months of meeting Wow,
Speaker 1: And we probably saw each other every night in that
Speaker 1: lead out.
Speaker 4: And Matt and I enjoyed his company, did we as
Speaker 4: young kids.
Speaker 1: He was really good with you. He was awesome, especially Matt,
Speaker 1: because you were just that little bit younger, so you know,
Speaker 1: Mummy's girl. But he took Matt, who was turning five,
Speaker 1: out on a motorbike on the farm and rides in
Speaker 1: a truck and out amongst the animals, and like, Matt
Speaker 1: absolutely adored Umn. Within a week of living together, I
Speaker 1: can remember an incident that should have or did raise
Speaker 1: red flags, Like Matt was being a pain and he
Speaker 1: was in the bath and I think he was like
Speaker 1: splashing water at you, and you didn't want that hre
Speaker 1: just to bath you together when you were that little
Speaker 1: Andrew walked to the bathroom and grabbed him by the
Speaker 1: arm and smacked him across his button, and he had
Speaker 1: like really big hands, and this is a small kid,
Speaker 1: and I just remember seeing this handprint on my child's butt.
Speaker 1: You know. It was a huge hand and it was
Speaker 1: just shocking. And I just turned around to him then
Speaker 1: and I said, if you ever lay a finger on
Speaker 1: one of my kids again, I'm out of here. You'll
Speaker 1: never see me again. And I was just so so
Speaker 1: upset about it.
Speaker 4: Did he say sorry?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did say sorry, and he promised me it
Speaker 1: would never happen again. But the reality of it was
Speaker 1: it didn't happen again. I never saw him do it again.
Speaker 1: He made sure I wasn't watching.
Speaker 4: He was good at that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was very good at taking situations like
Speaker 1: I promise you will never see me do that again.
Speaker 4: Well I didn't manipulative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't mean it didn't happen.
Speaker 4: That's right, because I don't know if I've told on
Speaker 4: the podcast. But when I was older, he would do
Speaker 4: things when you weren't around. Because that's the questions I've
Speaker 4: gotten when I've talked about my upbringing, is like, why
Speaker 4: did your mum allow that to happen. I'm like, she
Speaker 4: wasn't there, she was working. He would always do these
Speaker 4: things when she wasn't there. So then when Mum would
Speaker 4: come home and I would tell her He would then
Speaker 4: be like, don't you fucking lie to your mother? How disrespectful?
Speaker 4: Go to your room, And then Mum, you're caught in
Speaker 4: the middle being like do I believe my grown ass
Speaker 4: husband or my teenage daughter? Like you know what I mean,
Speaker 4: Like who do I believe? And I looked so hard
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 1: It was because I wanted to believe him. Before we
Speaker 1: left New Zealand, there were a lot of people we
Speaker 1: knew who had conversations with me, saying he is way
Speaker 1: too strict on those kids. You've got to get him
Speaker 1: to ease up on them, like they are going to
Speaker 1: end up painting him. He is so strict. And he
Speaker 1: convinced me that he was creating really good morals and
Speaker 1: ethics in you, and that they were just too slack
Speaker 1: with their children. So it was really good at playing
Speaker 1: with my mind. Yes, right from the start, I mean,
Speaker 1: and at this stage I didn't know, but he was
Speaker 1: having an affair, and I'm sure the main reason we
Speaker 1: actually came to Australia was he needed to get out
Speaker 1: of town fast because it was going to be coming
Speaker 1: to my attention.
Speaker 4: Out of us three kids, so there's Matt, my older
Speaker 4: brother Craig, my younger brother, so Andrew is Craig's father
Speaker 4: was Matt, and I obviously have a different dad out
Speaker 4: of the three of us. You've always said that I
Speaker 4: was his most triggering. Why do you think I triggered
Speaker 4: and bothered him the most?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it always seemed like a love hate relationship between
Speaker 1: you and him. Either he was giggling and laughing with you,
Speaker 1: like secret jokes that the rest of us didn't know about,
Speaker 1: and you two were getting on really well, or then
Speaker 1: something would always happen and he would like in the
Speaker 1: blink of an eye, suddenly be saying to you, go
Speaker 1: to your room, like I've had enough of you. And
Speaker 1: it used to be like, I don't even understand what's
Speaker 1: going on here. One minute, it's all love and light
Speaker 1: between you, and you're the best of friends. You too,
Speaker 1: like I felt like the outsider because you got on
Speaker 1: so well at times and then it just flip. But
Speaker 1: he did that with all of you. But for some reason,
Speaker 1: I think because you ask questions and you weren't as
Speaker 1: willing to take his word for things as the boys were.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think as a young girl, my intuition, I
Speaker 4: don't know, there was some sense of like unsafety and
Speaker 4: not certainty with him, and I did question a lot,
Speaker 4: and then as I got older, I think I argued
Speaker 4: back more than the two boys, even though I was scared.
Speaker 4: I was just like, no, you're right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The boys were definitely much more accepting, and even now
Speaker 1: they look back on those days and see a lot
Speaker 1: less conflict. They just don't tend to remember all the conflict.
Speaker 4: I feel like I've bought it all to the surface
Speaker 4: so I can heel through it. I feel like the
Speaker 4: boys have kind of parked and suppressed it because it's like,
Speaker 4: that's my old life. Don't want to go there. Let's
Speaker 4: fast forward to when I'm sixteen and we're really not
Speaker 4: getting along. Like life at home for me and my
Speaker 4: experience was really hard. You were working, you would leave it,
Speaker 4: I don't know, five something in the morning, not get
Speaker 4: home till six at night, so I didn't really see
Speaker 4: you much. Saw a lot more of him hated being home.
Speaker 4: And then we obviously had a massive blow up and
Speaker 4: he texted me and told me to pack my things
Speaker 4: and leave, and as a sixteen year old girl, I
Speaker 4: was like, holy fuck, what the fuck are we going
Speaker 4: to do? I was lucky I had a partner at
Speaker 4: that time, and I packed my things and I left
Speaker 4: because I was like, I don't want to be here anyway.
Speaker 4: I fucking hate him. So I was so scared, but
Speaker 4: I was also excited, like, oh my gosh, I'm free,
Speaker 4: like I won't have to see him ever again. And
Speaker 4: he hadn't gone to you, asked you, consulted with you.
Speaker 4: So when I told you, you were just like, what, like,
Speaker 4: what's happened?
Speaker 1: And when it was so shocking. I'd been the brid
Speaker 1: winner basically for a few years at that stage, so
Speaker 1: I wasn't spending much time. I was away, as you said,
Speaker 1: a lot. I never knew what I was going to
Speaker 1: come home to in terms of you and him, because
Speaker 1: you fought so much. I can just remember like she's gone,
Speaker 1: just boughting my eyes out, like no, seriously, And my
Speaker 1: instinct was, of course, I need to get my daughter back.
Speaker 1: I need to get in the car and go and
Speaker 1: get here. But then I thought, well, I knew the
Speaker 1: family that you were staying with, and I knew that
Speaker 1: they were much more calm and stable, and yeah, they
Speaker 1: thought the world of you, And it was like, I
Speaker 1: have to come to the reality that my daughter is
Speaker 1: not happy here, and he's triggered here, and this was
Speaker 1: reverberating out on everybody, So what is actually best for
Speaker 1: my child? I came to the conclusion that it was
Speaker 1: just to not be there. I think I had this
Speaker 1: story in the back of my head that you know,
Speaker 1: my daughter's sixteen. You know, the kids are growing up
Speaker 1: in a couple of years time, everybody, he's going to
Speaker 1: have flown the nest anyway, and then maybe he'll be calmer.
Speaker 1: You know. I was still invested enough in the marriage
Speaker 1: that thinking he'll calm down when he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: live with all the kids. But I really thought it
Speaker 1: was best for you to not be there. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to have a bar of you ever again. But
Speaker 1: for me, it was just like, Okay, we're not under
Speaker 1: the same roof, but you know, nothing's going to change
Speaker 1: as far as our relationship.
Speaker 4: What would you say in your marriage and life with him?
Speaker 4: What was the hardest moment for you?
Speaker 1: The actual breakup was the hardest for me personally. There's
Speaker 1: so many disappointments, Like right from that first red flag,
Speaker 1: there was disappointment after disappointment, you know, the way he
Speaker 1: handled things, the way he behaved in situations like he
Speaker 1: was very explosive and so narcissistic that I didn't realize
Speaker 1: all the games that were being played with my head.
Speaker 1: I was this corporate person going to work and playing
Speaker 1: that role, and then I was coming home and he
Speaker 1: was making me sleep outside with the dog because I
Speaker 1: snored too loud. I would literally sleep on the back
Speaker 1: deck with the dog at night and then get up
Speaker 1: and put my clothes on and go and be a
Speaker 1: corporate boss. There was a time when because Matt had
Speaker 1: left home, he came home after drinking one night and
Speaker 1: he was trying to sneak into the house and he
Speaker 1: came up around the back deck and found me sleeping
Speaker 1: with the dog, and he just went inside and went
Speaker 1: absolutely ballistic at Andrew. He just completely lost his shit.
Speaker 1: I think the realization for me came when we'd split up,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really important thing that I learned
Speaker 1: was there's a saying that, and I'm saying it completely wrong.
Speaker 1: But this is the gist of the story. If you
Speaker 1: rescue a lion from a trap, for example, and it's injured,
Speaker 1: don't expect it not to eat you when it's hungry,
Speaker 1: because it's still a lion. And that's the analogy that
Speaker 1: really got me to realize that Andrew's basically a snake
Speaker 1: and he was going to behave really badly and that's
Speaker 1: the character that he's got. This is my opinion, this
Speaker 1: is my truth. Whereas I was trying to live by
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, I would never do this
Speaker 1: to him. So of course he's not really hitting my children,
Speaker 1: he's not really driving past them when it's raining. Of
Speaker 1: course he's not. I would never do that, So why
Speaker 1: would he do that? And that's the thinking that had
Speaker 1: got me stuck where I couldn't see him for what
Speaker 1: he really was.
Speaker 5: How long were you in this marriage.
Speaker 1: For Wendy seventeen years?
Speaker 5: When did you first find out about the affairs as well?
Speaker 5: And was that what made you leave?
Speaker 1: During that seventeen years, there'd been at least three times
Speaker 1: when people had either rung me in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night say do you know what your husband's doing?
Speaker 1: There'd been all these warning signs that he was having
Speaker 1: an affair, but he always managed to talk his way
Speaker 1: out of it.
Speaker 4: He makes you feel crazy, hey, He'd be like, if
Speaker 4: you'd accuse it, that's disgusting. Is that what you're doing
Speaker 4: How could you even think of that?
Speaker 1: Like, exactly what sort of person are you?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: You are sick, you are mental? If you can think
Speaker 1: that about me, I just fear it even going there.
Speaker 1: I had friends who offered to pay for a private
Speaker 1: investigator if I'd let them do it, but I was like, now,
Speaker 1: what does that say about me that I don't trust him?
Speaker 5: Looking out for you too?
Speaker 1: By the same yeah, the last year he was like distant, depressed,
Speaker 1: and I spent that year trying to find ways that
Speaker 1: I could be a better wife so he would want
Speaker 1: to be around me. And then one day I was
Speaker 1: making his favorite meal for the barbecue, marinating some lamb.
Speaker 1: I can remember it. That was like doing a thing,
Speaker 1: and the phone rang and it was just like a
Speaker 1: landline back then. And answered the phone and this guy said, oh,
Speaker 1: my name's Mark. I think it's time we had a talk.
Speaker 1: And I went, oh, okay, who are you Mark? And
Speaker 1: he said, oh, I'm I won't say a name her
Speaker 1: husband And I was like, okay, so who's she? And
Speaker 1: he said you can't tell me, you don't know. And
Speaker 1: I said, what are you talking about? And he said, well,
Speaker 1: right now, my wife and your husband are round house hunting.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, how devastating.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, you know, and then he
Speaker 1: started to tell me information that he couldn't possibly know
Speaker 1: unless this was true, and it was nice. It had
Speaker 1: been going for over a year that he knew of,
Speaker 1: so I don't know even it could have been longer
Speaker 1: than that. So yeah, I got off the phone, and
Speaker 1: then I rang his number and I said, the game's up.
Speaker 1: I just said a call from Mark. I don't think
Speaker 1: you should by the coming home?
Speaker 4: And what did he say?
Speaker 1: He was just like, ah, no, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: there soon. And at that stage I rang you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember, and you and Steve came down to the
Speaker 1: house for me so that I wouldn't be on my
Speaker 1: own if he turned up. And Steve got a lopsmouth
Speaker 1: out there straight away, I started pecking his stuff into
Speaker 1: big rubbish bags, threw them out on the front lawn.
Speaker 4: Is this the same day where he tried to grab
Speaker 4: the dog?
Speaker 1: Yes, so it tried more than once.
Speaker 4: Steve and I were there. I remember when he pulled
Speaker 4: up my nervous system.
Speaker 5: How long had it been since you'd seen him?
Speaker 4: I would have been years since i'd seen him, right.
Speaker 1: Moum, I think it would have been here.
Speaker 4: Yes, I was just so nervous, but I felt so
Speaker 4: protected because I had Steve, and even when I left home,
Speaker 4: I had left to go be with my boyfriend and
Speaker 4: his Family's always felt protected because I had Luke and
Speaker 4: he was really protective of me as well. So I
Speaker 4: never felt scared of Andrew again because I was like,
Speaker 4: I've got someone now. So Steve and I were there
Speaker 4: and Andrew comes. He pulls in really fast, and he
Speaker 4: comes stamping up the stairs and goes into the room,
Speaker 4: grab some stuff and then tries to grab the labrador,
Speaker 4: which is like, no, you're not taking our family dog.
Speaker 4: And I remember Steve just grabbed his arm and said
Speaker 4: and Steve's like so cool and calm. He was like no, mate,
Speaker 4: and he tried to go him again, and Steve just
Speaker 4: like karate, chopped his arm, so he had to like leave.
Speaker 4: Then he went back into the bedroom, didn't he, mum
Speaker 4: and lay down? This is yeah, this is so odd.
Speaker 4: So he went back into the bedroom, laid down, hopped
Speaker 4: under the doner and rolled over to go to sleep.
Speaker 1: And it was the spear bedroom.
Speaker 4: It was, so I was like, get out, mate, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna say what I did. I carry a little bit
Speaker 4: of shame, some like wow, you psycho, But then I'm
Speaker 4: also like, I was like eighteen nineteen at the time, Mum,
Speaker 4: and I was just all these years of abuse and
Speaker 4: trauma and sadness and fear. It all came out in
Speaker 4: this moment. I went and got a shoe and I
Speaker 4: went up to his face and I started yelling in
Speaker 4: his face and I said get out, get out, like
Speaker 4: get out, and Steve and Mum just stood back and
Speaker 4: just allowed me to do my thing. He just laid
Speaker 4: there casually with a smirky, smart ass look on his face,
Speaker 4: and I grabbed the shoe, which was his shoe, and
Speaker 4: I whacked him in the head and I said get out.
Speaker 4: He didn't move, and I whacked him again, and he
Speaker 4: got up and he left. I just felt so like
Speaker 4: I've got my power back in this moment, which obviously
Speaker 4: isn't nice when you're hitting someone with the shoe, but
Speaker 4: it was the first time in my life that I
Speaker 4: was like, you can't hurt me, No, you can't hurt me.
Speaker 4: And you know, in that moment, I almost like wanted
Speaker 4: him to so that you, Mum could see I know
Speaker 4: you believe me at this point, but I wanted you
Speaker 4: to see like who he really was. But I knew
Speaker 4: he wouldn't touch me when they were there, but I
Speaker 4: was like, get out and never come back.
Speaker 5: So did He used to physically hurt you as well
Speaker 5: when he wasn't around.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 1: And he used to physically hurt me too. Liked he
Speaker 1: hurt us all but in that last year he would
Speaker 1: pretend that he was having bad dreams where he was
Speaker 1: chasing a rubber and had to punch the rubber, but
Speaker 1: he was punching.
Speaker 4: Me instantly in the bed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'd wake up getting punched. I guess this
Speaker 1: is probably why the back dick didn't seem so bad,
Speaker 1: because if I was in the bead, he was going
Speaker 1: to punch me.
Speaker 4: He did actually stop hitting me at one point. I remember,
Speaker 4: because Matt and I lived downstairs. There was two bedrooms
Speaker 4: right next to each other. Andrews chased me down the
Speaker 4: stairs sometimes if we were like in an argument and
Speaker 4: he'd come to whack me. Scary, so scary, and I
Speaker 4: sprinted downstairs and my older brother grabbed me by the
Speaker 4: shoulders and he was like, don't react, don't cry, don't
Speaker 4: say anything. Just let him hit you. He won't even
Speaker 4: touch you again. Just do not react. So he smacked me,
Speaker 4: and I stood there and I didn't have any tears,
Speaker 4: I had no reaction. I just stood there and he
Speaker 4: did again, like four or five times, just whacked me
Speaker 4: on the ass, and Matt was there watching, and I
Speaker 4: just maintained eye contact with Matt and just did not react.
Speaker 4: And he never touched me again after that. So I
Speaker 4: don't know if that was a moment of just like.
Speaker 5: A power thing, yeah, I can hurt her, and wanting
Speaker 5: to see you.
Speaker 4: He wanted to see me crumble. But I was like, no,
Speaker 4: not anymore. And that was the best advice Matt ever
Speaker 4: gave me, because he never touched me again after that.
Speaker 4: So after all this happened, then things got really bad
Speaker 4: in the way of threats. And I think this is
Speaker 4: a really important conversation because you know, your whole life
Speaker 4: was obviously crumbling around. You'd found out about this affair,
Speaker 4: he'd moved out, but he then started threatening us. And
Speaker 4: we're not just talking like little threats. We're talking like
Speaker 4: I'm going to come and burn the house down, like beware, basically,
Speaker 4: like I'm going to come and kill you, and you
Speaker 4: went to the police, and the police really didn't do
Speaker 4: much to protect you.
Speaker 1: Right as soon as I found out about the affair,
Speaker 1: I kicked him out, and he still felt he had
Speaker 1: rights as far as the house, the family. I mean,
Speaker 1: we'd had this conversation. You're married for a long time.
Speaker 1: You have conversations about what happens if one of your
Speaker 1: cheats or whatever that had always been, you know, if
Speaker 1: one of us cheats, that person just needs to walk away.
Speaker 1: They need to have no claim on anything. But for
Speaker 1: some reason when it actually happened, he was like, you know, no,
Speaker 1: I own this house too, and if I want to
Speaker 1: live in it still I will. Because his girlfriend is
Speaker 1: obviously still living with her husband at that stage and
Speaker 1: they hadn't got a place on their own. So for
Speaker 1: about three or four months afterwards, there was this constant
Speaker 1: tussle of him wanting to move back into the house,
Speaker 1: me trying to understand what had happened, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of history between them that was torturing me
Speaker 1: and trying to work my way through trying to understand
Speaker 1: how our kids fitted into all of this. Like you know,
Speaker 1: obviously Craig was still at school and this is his dad.
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to navigate all of that. Andrew got
Speaker 1: more and more angry, and then he started with the threats,
Speaker 1: and it was just like, you know, I will burn
Speaker 1: the house down if you won't let me come back,
Speaker 1: and just be aware I've got access to your car.
Speaker 1: So I was just scared all the time, to the
Speaker 1: point where I worked in a building that had a
Speaker 1: lot of security and that was the only I felt
Speaker 1: safe that he couldn't get to me. But I was
Speaker 1: still scared that he'd get at my car in the carpet.
Speaker 1: I remember driving home one day and somebody's car was backfiring,
Speaker 1: and I'm hunkering down in the seat because I seriously
Speaker 1: thought that he was out there with a gun trying
Speaker 1: to shoot me. He'd also like Pepper this with conversations
Speaker 1: with me, like, you know, you and I could still
Speaker 1: make a go of it. You and I could still
Speaker 1: get back together. And he suggested that the best way
Speaker 1: to do that would be for him and I to
Speaker 1: pack up and move to Tasmania and never have anything
Speaker 1: to do with the kids again. It just be the
Speaker 1: two of us and I could go to work and
Speaker 1: he would just do fishing in that because he wasn't
Speaker 1: really interested in working anymore. Oh my, I can remember saying,
Speaker 1: you still don't get that my kids in my first priority.
Speaker 1: His response to that was, that is the problem.
Speaker 3: I love that you've always made your kids your number
Speaker 3: one priority. That's beautiful because so many people being in
Speaker 3: a toxic relationship like that, they really can give everything
Speaker 3: to their partner and distance himself from their kids. So
Speaker 3: it's beautiful that you've always kept that as your number
Speaker 3: one priority.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one day, is suggested, and the next day,
Speaker 1: he's going to kill me.
Speaker 4: And you went to the police, and what did they
Speaker 4: say to you?
Speaker 1: I got some texts from him one night saying that
Speaker 1: he was going to kill me. I went to the
Speaker 1: police station. We can't do anything until something happens.
Speaker 4: Isn't that mind blowing? Like, oh, okay, when he kills you,
Speaker 4: then we'll step in and help. What kind of systems
Speaker 4: that to protect women in domestic abuse of relationships and situations?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's slightly better now, but it was
Speaker 1: devastating to be told that. And then the next week
Speaker 1: or so in Rabina, a woman and her child were
Speaker 1: killed by her X. That was like a real way
Speaker 1: cap call to me like this is really serious stuff.
Speaker 1: He might actually go through with it.
Speaker 4: So you packed up and left.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I changed my name, I changed my job, I
Speaker 1: changed the state I lived in, and I gave the
Speaker 1: keys to our house because we still had a mortgage
Speaker 1: on it to the bank. And I walked away.
Speaker 5: Wow, what a strong woman to make that decision.
Speaker 2: Up.
Speaker 4: You, Matt and Craig all left And the only reason
Speaker 4: I didn't go is because I had Steve up here.
Speaker 4: But you guys all left to another state, another town,
Speaker 4: a quiet little town that you've never been to before,
Speaker 4: and started a whole new life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we got the dog, yes dog. As soon
Speaker 1: as I left the Gold Coast, I had no contact.
Speaker 1: I've never spoken to him since.
Speaker 4: Wow, I've seen him. I was working out at a gym.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to paint a picture here for you guys.
Speaker 4: So the gym was outdoors, and next to it was
Speaker 4: a glazier So Andrew it was a glass place that
Speaker 4: he worked at. I didn't know he worked there. And
Speaker 4: I was working out at this gym that had like
Speaker 4: a fence so you could see straight through to this
Speaker 4: glass company. And I'm training by myself. And there's this
Speaker 4: one man that's always been my life since I was
Speaker 4: a teenager. His name's Ryan, and I'm still friends with
Speaker 4: them to this day. Him and Steve are still really close.
Speaker 4: But it was his gym, so I was training there
Speaker 4: and this ute pulls up and guess who gets out Andrew.
Speaker 4: And he comes to the fence and starts calling me
Speaker 4: all these names. You dirty, fucking slut, you motherfucker. You
Speaker 4: rode my life. I'm gonna get you out, like absolutely
Speaker 4: losing his marbles. My body went into freeze. I completely
Speaker 4: froze Ryan, who's this like six foot huge, musty tattoo
Speaker 4: like looks so scary.
Speaker 1: Ryan.
Speaker 4: He walks over and he goes, what the fuck's going
Speaker 4: on here? And I said to Ryan, he knew this.
Speaker 4: I said, that's my stepdad. Ryan gets out and bolts
Speaker 4: to go and get him. Andrew sprints, jumps in his
Speaker 4: car and leaves. And Ryan went into the glass place
Speaker 4: and made a complain or whatever, and apparently Andrew never
Speaker 4: went back. Good. Ryan scared him away.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 4: In all of this, Mum, like there's been so many
Speaker 4: hard times or whatever, but me and you always talk
Speaker 4: about it that like we wouldn't change any of it.
Speaker 4: It's really made us learn so much about ourselves, about
Speaker 4: other people, about relationships, you know, even me and you
Speaker 4: have spoken about the moments that you know weren't our
Speaker 4: proudest moments in this whole dynamic. And you've learned a
Speaker 4: lot about masculine and feminine energy in relationships, and you
Speaker 4: know how you were always in survival mode, and just
Speaker 4: has been so many cool lessons that we wouldn't be
Speaker 4: the people we are now if we didn't go through
Speaker 4: all that experience, Like, yes, we wouldn't we should upont
Speaker 4: our worst enemy. But we've definitely come out the other side,
Speaker 4: and it's really helped bring us closer, and I think
Speaker 4: it's helped me be the parent I am today. And
Speaker 4: it's also helped me attract a partner that was the
Speaker 4: complete opposite to what I saw growing up. So that
Speaker 4: in itself has been an incredible gift. What has been
Speaker 4: your top couple of lessons you've learned throughout this journey.
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the biggest ones is that
Speaker 1: we're not I'm not here to fix somebody else. Narcissists
Speaker 1: are very good at finding women who want to help
Speaker 1: them solve their problems and basically fix them, and that's
Speaker 1: not a healthy relationship. Has taken me to get to
Speaker 1: my third marriage. Before it was always vital flight or
Speaker 1: dramatic situations, and you don't have to live like that.
Speaker 1: The ideal partner is really somebody who wants for you
Speaker 1: to be happy, not for you to fix them.
Speaker 4: What kind of advice would you give to your younger self?
Speaker 4: Looking back, I think.
Speaker 1: My advice to myself was like, actually listen to what
Speaker 1: other people have to say and take it on board.
Speaker 1: I had people warning me right from the start, and
Speaker 1: I didn't heed the warning signs. I was too much
Speaker 1: of the story in my head that if I'm a
Speaker 1: good person, other people will be good people too, and
Speaker 1: it's just not true, unfortunately.
Speaker 4: And what advice would you give to someone that's in
Speaker 4: a really toxic, abusive, unhappy relationship and they feel so
Speaker 4: stuck and they don't know how to get out, they're
Speaker 4: scared to get out, Like, what do you have any
Speaker 4: advice that you would give them if they're listening.
Speaker 1: I think the truth is that there is always better
Speaker 1: to look forward to. So my life is nothing like
Speaker 1: what it was back then, and at the time I
Speaker 1: didn't want to let go of this relationship or the
Speaker 1: whole dynamic, because I was afraid that I was losing something.
Speaker 1: And in fact, when you let go of a relationship
Speaker 1: that's toxic, you gain. So it's just getting that story
Speaker 1: that's in your head that you've got things to lose.
Speaker 1: Take that story and give it a different perspective. But
Speaker 1: what if I got to gain? And the things that
Speaker 1: you've got to gain aren't to do with material things,
Speaker 1: your house, that sort of thing that can all be replaced.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds easy to say, that sort of
Speaker 1: thing can come and go in your life. It's your
Speaker 1: own self respect, it's your own sense of being. You
Speaker 1: have to develop your own identity without that connection to
Speaker 1: someone else. That's unhealthy because that's just going to hold
Speaker 1: you back.
Speaker 4: And it's not easy for you to pack up your life,
Speaker 4: pack up the boxes of the house, like change your name,
Speaker 4: get the two boys, get a new job, like drive
Speaker 4: to a new state, go to a little town that
Speaker 4: you've never been to before. Like obviously that was really scary, uncomfortable,
Speaker 4: but you did it, and you can do it, and
Speaker 4: so can others.
Speaker 1: Right absolutely, And the truth of it was, at the
Speaker 1: end of that marriage, I did not know who I
Speaker 1: was because I'd spent so many years basically just trying
Speaker 1: to manage the peace, burying me and what he needed
Speaker 1: and wanted, and what I had to provide as a mother,
Speaker 1: and what I needed to give to work. There was
Speaker 1: no me left. So that was the big game for me,
Speaker 1: is that by changing my name, by changing where I live,
Speaker 1: by changing everything in my life, I got to reinvent myself.
Speaker 1: That's cool, be brave, take that step. Do it for
Speaker 1: you because you need to be able to know who
Speaker 1: you are in life. People were saying to me, oh,
Speaker 1: this is awesome. He's out of your life. You can
Speaker 1: do all the things that you like to do. And
Speaker 1: I was like, seriously, I do not know what I
Speaker 1: like to do. I don't know anymore. It was like
Speaker 1: a new discovery. I started like cooking, doing recipes I
Speaker 1: really like to make, and just one by one gathering
Speaker 1: sort of like a tool belt of things that were
Speaker 1: about what I liked. Now I do know who I am,
Speaker 1: I know what I like. It's such a bit of life,
Speaker 1: not in that toxic relationship.
Speaker 4: We are so lucky in this generation of this is
Speaker 4: like the light of social media as we have like
Speaker 4: courses and YouTube and podcasts and coaches and TV shows
Speaker 4: and documentaries and all all these things that like teach
Speaker 4: you about relationships, about finding yourself, about boundaries, like about
Speaker 4: your own beliefs and values and morals and how important
Speaker 4: the first seven years of your life is like all
Speaker 4: this stuff. Like you don't get talk growing up, especially
Speaker 4: in your generation, mum, like your age group, Like you
Speaker 4: didn't have access to all of this. So as you're
Speaker 4: going through all of this, you're literally navigating this as
Speaker 4: a young woman that just has no idea about any
Speaker 4: of this. You're totally winging it. There's no knowledge, there's
Speaker 4: no experience, there's no handbook, there's no even your parents
Speaker 4: are not there helping guide you because they didn't know,
Speaker 4: not anyone to therapy. In those days, it wasn't a
Speaker 4: normal thing to be like I'm just going to go
Speaker 4: see my psychology. That's so normal now if I just regulated,
Speaker 4: I'm like a session with a coach and like all
Speaker 4: my friends are aligned do we chat about these deep
Speaker 4: conversations and we've got a support system, Like I can't
Speaker 4: imagine going through everything you've been through with no support,
Speaker 4: So hush, yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there's massive pressures on you know, the young
Speaker 1: women of today that my generation didn't have. It. Kind
Speaker 1: of cats both ways. You know, the image that you
Speaker 1: get of how life is supposed to be is not
Speaker 1: something we had to deal with back in my day.
Speaker 1: I mean, normal was what you lived and you didn't
Speaker 1: really get to see how anyone else's life was true.
Speaker 1: So for me, the marriage I was in was a
Speaker 1: normal marriage as far as I was concerned, because I
Speaker 1: didn't see the examples of better ones.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you didn't know. That's so true? Actually was. We
Speaker 4: compare so much on social media with like these highlight reels.
Speaker 4: We think you have a standard. It does fast forward
Speaker 4: to now though, Mom, Like, your life is obviously so
Speaker 4: different and you're so happy, Like you were single for
Speaker 4: quite a few years, and then you met your partner
Speaker 4: Bruce now on it was it on dating our pay.
Speaker 1: We've been together for twelve years, married for three or four.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when I tell you I've never seen a man
Speaker 4: worship the ground someone walks on, I'm not even kidding you.
Speaker 4: Like this man thinks the bee's knees of my mumm
Speaker 4: gonna be like having, you know, a moment where she's
Speaker 4: I don't know. We you're emotional, snappy, and she's like,
Speaker 4: he just still loves me. He just adores the shit
Speaker 4: out of you.
Speaker 3: And it's so isn't it so exactly what you deserve.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I'm just like, oh my gosh, that man is
Speaker 4: like obsessed with you, but in the most beautiful way.
Speaker 4: And we giggle because it's just like, I've never seen
Speaker 4: you be treated like an absolute queen, Like you could
Speaker 4: literally wear anything, do anything, say anything, you could have
Speaker 4: shit all over your face and he'd be like, Wendy,
Speaker 4: you're so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I know, my ugly dancing he thinks is amazing. He
Speaker 1: really is the blast thing at the end of all
Speaker 1: of this for.
Speaker 4: Me, and I freaking love that because it just gives
Speaker 4: anyone listening hopefully like we wanted to share this story
Speaker 4: because one I've spoken about it so much openly over
Speaker 4: the years, but too just to hopefully empower other women
Speaker 4: that they you know, there is choices, and I know
Speaker 4: it's not as easy as just like getting up and leaving.
Speaker 4: I realize domestic and abusive relationship and toxic relationships are
Speaker 4: not that black and white. There's so many layers to it.
Speaker 4: But I just hope that this can give some light.
Speaker 1: And remember it's too late to reinvent yourself. I did
Speaker 1: it when I was forty five, like and I thought
Speaker 1: at that time, like you know, that was part of
Speaker 1: the grief for me, was like I'm so old, I
Speaker 1: could never have another life. Now this has just ruined
Speaker 1: my life. That was the mindset that I was in.
Speaker 1: But it's never too late. You can always move on
Speaker 1: to something better and build that for yourself.
Speaker 4: And you've built an incredible life that you're loving so much.
Speaker 4: You go to Bali every year with your amazing daughter.
Speaker 4: You live on land, you have a veggie garden. You know,
Speaker 4: you're working back for us. You've got a great relationship
Speaker 4: with all of your children and your husband, and it's
Speaker 4: just so cool to see you at this second half
Speaker 4: of your life, just absolutely thriving, not just surviving through
Speaker 4: each day. And it's so cool to see.
Speaker 1: And it's so cool to get to share it with you.
Speaker 4: I love you so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love you.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for joining us. This has been incredible.
Speaker 4: It's so vulnerable and brave to share and open up,
Speaker 4: and I think so many women are going to get
Speaker 4: a lot out of this episode. It's really share your time.
Speaker 1: Mum, thank you to both of you.
Speaker 4: You're so welcome.