1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to separate Bathrooms and other handy marriage tips. 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to separate bathroom Soundcam. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 3: I'm Ali Daddo. Today's a special day, it sure is. 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: We are welcoming a very special guest all the way 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: from Chicago, someone we've mentioned before in our podcasts, Doctor 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Alexandra Solman. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 4: Love is a classroom dating, falling in love, making love, 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 4: fighting forgiving, building a life together. These are some of 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 4: the most powerful teachers on the planet, offering us lessons 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 4: about trust, vulnerability, and empathy. 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: She's a clinical Assistant professor in the Department of Psychology 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: at Northwestern University. She's a psychologist at the Family Institute 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: at north Western University. She maintains a practice for individual 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: els and couples. She teaches a renowned undergraduate course Building Love, 15 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: Lasting Relationships Marriage one oh one, amongst many other. 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: Things She's done ted X Talk. She's a highly sought 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: after speaker. She's released two books, the first one called 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: Loving Bravely, and we are talking to her today about 19 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: her latest book called Taking Sexy Back. This book has 20 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: so much amazing intelligent information to not only women, but 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: anyone who is with a woman sexually. It's a work book. 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: It's a self help book. To me, it's a life 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: changing book, and it really talks about what it means 24 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: to be a woman and where we might have lost 25 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: our sexuality. She's with us today, She's going to talk 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: us through exactly what her book, Taking Sexy Back is 27 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: all about. 28 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: Yep, we got her on zoom Press a few buttons. Welcome, 29 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: doctor Solomon. 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 5: So nice to be with you. 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times I quote you, 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: how many pages I've dog marked, how many times I've 33 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: highlighted things. 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 3: From your book I had. 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: I had bought your book, Taking Sexy Back, probably about 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: six weeks ago, and I've been following you on Instagram 37 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: for a while. So I just I'm blown away by 38 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: this book. Actually, I find it so creative, I find 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: it so kind, I find it so inclusive. How did 40 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: you come about writing this book? 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 5: Oh gosh, this book holds such a special place in 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 5: my heart. And it was such a different journey than 43 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 5: the first book, Much like somebody who's gone through two 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 5: pregnancies or more, you know, it was a very different 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 5: gestation and conception. The whole thing was just so different. 46 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 5: So I had written my first book, loving bravely. And 47 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 5: even as I wrote that book, I in the back 48 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 5: of my mind I thought, woy, I have a lot 49 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 5: more to say about the topic of sex, but there's 50 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 5: only so much you can do in any one given books. 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 5: So I sort of knew that somewhere in the back 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 5: of my mind was a desire to dive in a 53 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 5: bit more to how this whole idea of relational self 54 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 5: awareness travels with us into the bedroom. And so that's 55 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 5: really where Taking Sexy Back was born, was from a 56 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 5: desire to unpack and develop a process for helping people 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 5: come to know their eerrotic self more deeply. And so 58 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 5: that's what sexual self awareness is is journeying to our 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 5: own interior to understand what we've inherited around sex, the messages, 60 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 5: and how much those get in the way, and and 61 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 5: and you know, the book was the book. I started 62 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 5: working on it right as the Me Too movement began 63 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 5: and we started to have finally these larger conversations about 64 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 5: sexual violence and the painful intersection of gender and power 65 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 5: and sex. And I wanted to add my voice as 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 5: a way of also making sure that we talk not 67 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 5: just about reducing pain but also about increasing pleasure. 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: The word sexy has a lot of different connotations. I 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: have my definitions for it, Ali probably has hers, and 70 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm just curious about what your definition of sexy is 71 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: in connection to the book. 72 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 5: Right right, what we did and what I did in 73 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 5: the book was we you know, sexy is, as you said, 74 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 5: it's this you know, adjective that people define differently and 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 5: that people also have different relationships with. And I think 76 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 5: especially for those who've been socialized in the feminine, for women, 77 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 5: sexy is something we sort of carry as a question. 78 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 5: It's not for us to decide, it's how we are 79 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 5: experienced in the gaze of another, right, And and that 80 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 5: just sort of parallels this whole relationship oftentimes that women 81 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 5: have with their sexuality, which is it's a duty or 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 5: it's a performance versus is it's something that that whose 83 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 5: origin is inside of me? And so in the book, 84 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 5: we take sexy from an adjective into a noun. And 85 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 5: so your sexy then is your sexual self, your erotic self. 86 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 5: And so we're getting to know our sexy in this book, 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 5: and it is it's a way of sort of shifting 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 5: the focus from out there to in here, because of 89 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 5: course we can't have wonderful sex if all we're doing 90 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 5: is focusing on the out there part, either how I 91 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 5: look or how you're experiencing me or how you're doing. 92 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 5: If we're so focused on the other, we really lose 93 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 5: our own ability to feel pleasure, to feel a liveness, 94 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 5: to feel connection. 95 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: So, then sexy is your own definition of your own 96 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: feeling as opposed to what you're saying, is this this 97 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: outside thing of a validation? 98 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 5: Yes? Right, right, So sexy is my own. It's all 99 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 5: of the ways in which I relate to sex as 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 5: a as a gateway to myself, to my healing, to connection. Right, So, 101 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 5: sexy is not something I wonder how you experience me. 102 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 5: It's about how I experience myself. 103 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: And that's so different for women. You know, I grew 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: up in the modeling industry, and it's always been about 105 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: how I look, you know, what's sexy, how I'm going 106 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: to pervey something that's sexy in a garment, And so 107 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: to flip that narrative is really exciting, and it's and 108 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: it seems really foreign, and yet it shouldn't be foreign. 109 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it speaks to how much we are and 110 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 5: I think it's I think that men have their own 111 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 5: you know, I think this writing this book took me 112 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 5: so deeply into compassion for men's complicated relationship with their 113 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 5: own sexual selves. And so it's so. But but for 114 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 5: right now we're talking about right that experience of what 115 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 5: it is to grow up as a girl is to 116 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 5: be forever aware of how you're being experienced and walking 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 5: this very narrow line between too much, too little right 118 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 5: the sort of slut shaming, virgin shaming, and it's sort 119 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 5: of everybody else's opinion about you know, we in our 120 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 5: I think it's a it's an artifact of patriarchy or 121 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 5: a reflection of patriarchy that we are we have so 122 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 5: much permission to judge and talk about how any given 123 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: woman is presenting herself at any given moment. That's a 124 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 5: that's part of the nature of the structure we've been 125 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 5: living in for generations and generations. 126 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: And of course that, as you said, that is going 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: to affect intimate relationships with your partner and everyone when 128 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: they talk about sex. You know, there's always this idea 129 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: of let's bring it down to numbers. Okay, if I'm 130 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: having sex three times a week, then therefore I've got 131 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: a healthy relationship. But if I've only had it once 132 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: every six months, you know we're in trouble. You know, 133 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: we tend to just put numbers on how many times 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: couples have sex. What I know, it's a very big, 135 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: big question, But what would you say is a healthy 136 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: sex life for couples? 137 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 5: It's a beautiful question. I think that you're I think 138 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 5: you're exactly right to start with this piece. It's about 139 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 5: so far the only way we've ever defined a healthy 140 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 5: sex life is frequency, which is in some ways the 141 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 5: least interesting question to ask about it, but it is 142 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 5: in some ways the most It's the easiest question to ask. 143 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 5: It's the most quantifiable question, right It's to me, it's 144 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 5: a parallel to the how many pounds I weigh on 145 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 5: the scale? Right, Like that's an easy way to say, 146 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 5: like how do I look or am I okay? Is 147 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 5: my relationship to a number on the scale. So it's 148 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 5: like kind of quantifying as a way of like reducing 149 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 5: my anxiety about my okayness. So I think that's what 150 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 5: happens for couples is like we like look for this 151 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 5: sort of silver bullet magic bullet around like if we're 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 5: having sex this many times, then we're okay versus a 153 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 5: more complicated question and of like what are we seeking 154 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 5: when we make love with each other? And what is 155 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 5: the quality? And how do we feel before, during, and after? 156 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 5: And what is the function of sex and our relationship? 157 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 5: How do we use it? And how is your journey 158 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: through any given experience different from my journey? Like those 159 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 5: are wildly interesting questions that we are that are certainly 160 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 5: harder for a researcher to maybe get into, but I 161 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 5: think also maybe more frightening for us, like we kind 162 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 5: of want that quick fix of like okay, we're okay, 163 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 5: we're doing it, you know whatever, once a week, once 164 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 5: a month, whatever that magic metric we think is well. 165 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 5: So I think a healthy sex life to answer Ali's question, finally, 166 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 5: I think a healthy sex life is whatever the couple 167 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 5: defines it to be, because. 168 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: That's that's where that gets, I guess in trouble is 169 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: because if the guy thinks that it's, as you said, 170 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: once or twice a week or a month or whatever, 171 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: and the girl's like no, and then that's when you 172 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: end up arguing over our frequency. 173 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 5: Well, and that is so desire, you know, the fancy 174 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 5: wordfor is desire discrepancy, and that is absolutely the most 175 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 5: common sexual problem that couples encounter, is desire discrepancy of 176 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 5: like I want it three times a week and you 177 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 5: want it every two weeks, And how do we bridge 178 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 5: that gap? And I think I think there are ways, 179 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 5: certainly to bridge that gap. And I think it's an 180 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 5: unrealistic expectation to expect that both people will want the 181 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 5: same kind of sex with the same frequency all of 182 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 5: the time. But one of the things I think is 183 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 5: helpful is the moment, especially for heterosexual couples. So I 184 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 5: think heterosexual couples get into the most trouble with this 185 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 5: because the heterosexual sexual script is so very linear. It's 186 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 5: penis and vagina penetration. That's the thing that you count 187 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 5: as like check the box, we had sex. But the 188 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 5: moment we start to make a more expansive menu, then 189 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,479 Speaker 5: maybe we actually don't have that big of a desire discrepancy, 190 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 5: because because if we have a number of options on 191 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 5: the table, then I can be thoughtful about what I'm 192 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 5: available for, and if it's not the same thing you're 193 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 5: avail before, I bet there's something we both would you know, 194 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 5: could count as a sexual erotic connecting experience. So I 195 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 5: think just that like widening out of what counts. What 196 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 5: are we counting? And if the only thing we count 197 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 5: is penis of vagina sex, then yeah, you're going to 198 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 5: end up with a pretty big, big discrepancy because that 199 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 5: is in some ways a larger ask for evolve a 200 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 5: bodied person than a penis body person. Right, you're asked 201 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 5: you are to make space to be penetrated as a 202 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 5: it's a it's a different kind of a thing than 203 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 5: just whatever a you know, oral sex or a hand 204 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 5: job or other kinds of things that maybe would be 205 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 5: if they were items on the menu, and they were 206 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 5: sort of valuable items in the menu, then maybe we 207 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 5: wouldn't end up feeling so very far from each other. 208 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: So it's a buffet rather than just a one course. 209 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: In these COVID times they've taken buffets a wa well. 210 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 5: Then all the more reason that we have to it's sexual. 211 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: We have to make it. 212 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: So communication is obviously a massive key to this, where 213 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: we have to be continually checking in with. 214 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 5: Our partner, absolutely, and that is you know, in some 215 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 5: ways it's like such a joke because where were we 216 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 5: supposed to learn how to talk about sex? Right? Like 217 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 5: it's certainly not part of sex education in the US. 218 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 5: I don't know how you guys are doing, but that's 219 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 5: just you know. I spend a lot of time with 220 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 5: my college students. In this class I teach to undergraduates, 221 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 5: we talk about talking about sex because it's so important. 222 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 5: The research is clear that couples who can talk about 223 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 5: sex tend to enjoy sex more than couples who can't 224 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 5: find the language or feel get really defensive or get 225 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 5: really shameloaded. Problems grow when we can't talk about them. 226 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: Tell me some of the of the barriers the couple's 227 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: vice in achieving this wonderful sex life that you've come across. 228 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 5: Well, this is really fun to talk about with both 229 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 5: a man and a woman, because I think that the 230 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 5: barriers are so very gendered, and I think that when 231 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 5: there is when there's one or more male partner in 232 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 5: the couple, one of the big barriers is around the 233 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 5: distinction between pleasure and performance for men. Right when we 234 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 5: go back to that, especially that heterosexual script, it's so 235 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 5: completely erection focused. Right, The whole thing hinges on what's 236 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 5: happening with the penis every step of the way. Right, 237 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 5: Is it hard? Is it hard enough is it? 238 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: You know? 239 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 5: Is he coming too soon? Is it taking too long? 240 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 5: Like it's all it's so focused on that, and I 241 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 5: think that that focus ends up really I mean not 242 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 5: that I have lived in this lifetime as a man, 243 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 5: but I can imagine that it just feels like a 244 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 5: lot of pressure and a lot of anxiety and a 245 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: lot of stress to kind of keep the experience going, 246 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 5: to take a leadership role to keep it going, when 247 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 5: in truth, a man's entire body is a massive source 248 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 5: of pleasure, both for himself and for his partner. So that, 249 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 5: to me is the biggest constraint that men bring into 250 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 5: the bedroom. Is just kind of that that the distinction 251 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 5: between performance and pleasure. 252 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: A lot of guys take their lead from pawn, and 253 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: there's a definite porn script, you know, where a woman 254 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: starts at office that's it, with a blowdob or whatever, 255 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: and then it sort of follows this similar pattern that's 256 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: in heterosexual pawn. I've not watched anything else, but that 257 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: seems to be the way it goes. And also with 258 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: the male porn stars, I don't know how they do it, 259 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: but they last for you know, as long as the 260 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: video isn't that editing. 261 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: I don't know. 262 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: I guess it's what they call the flufferin I don't, 263 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: but do you know. 264 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 5: What I read recently that the fluffer like right, that 265 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 5: used to be fluffer right there mast be a fluffer 266 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 5: And now what they do is they will watch porn 267 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 5: on their phones to stay hard for longer, like it's 268 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 5: so matter. 269 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: So here's a question, and I think we've got a 270 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: lot of women that are going to relate to this. 271 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: Who are my age fifty because I'm in menopause myself 272 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: and in speaking to a lot of women, I've been 273 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: doing a lot of research about menopause. The hormonal shifts 274 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: and the body changes that we go through can be 275 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: incredibly distressing in an intimate relationship. 276 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: What's your best advice. 277 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: For a menopausal woman and how do we get our 278 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: sexy I'm going to say sexy back, but maybe we 279 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: never had it, so maybe it's just the same as 280 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: a twenty year old as the same as a fifty 281 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: five year old. 282 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that piece of it is heartbreaking is 283 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 5: if we are going into menopause without a deep grounded 284 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 5: sense of entitlement to our sexualities, then it makes a 285 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 5: hard thing harder. So I do think that's that that 286 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 5: is even more reason than to be doing this reclamation work. 287 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 5: Like this reclamation work can happen, Like I love the 288 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: idea of women reading Checking Sexy back when they're eighteen, 289 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 5: nineteen twenty, so they just start out out of the gate, 290 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 5: not tolerating subpar sex, knowing where they're, knowing how pleasure 291 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 5: works in their bodies, all that kind of stuff. But 292 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 5: the truth is many of us can go for decades 293 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 5: and decades and not center this as an important piece 294 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 5: of our health because you know, for eighty seven reasons, 295 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 5: which are all in the book. But so for a 296 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 5: menopause a woman, I think it is. I mean the 297 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 5: first thing is maybe not the first thing, but one 298 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 5: important piece is just naming the sorts of the sorts 299 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 5: of grief that accompany menip right, just letting there's so 300 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 5: many ways that we as a culture are so afraid 301 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 5: of age, and so we have to like let ourselves 302 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 5: grieve that so that we can be open also to 303 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 5: these like hidden gifts that have to do with wisdom, 304 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 5: that have to do with like no longer giving an 305 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 5: f about certain things. So there's but we have to 306 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 5: we can't get there until we name the grief and 307 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 5: the sort of loss of the bodies that we used 308 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 5: to inhabit and all of that, And then around sex, 309 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 5: I think I think one thing that's important is being 310 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 5: able to talk to our partners about it, because the 311 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 5: more I feel like I can't talk with you about 312 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 5: what we both know is happening, the more my shame 313 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 5: is going to grow. So I think there's ways in 314 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: which it's so beautiful when couples can have a bit 315 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 5: of humor and levity about like, oh my god, like 316 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 5: what you know, what is going on with both of 317 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 5: us because likely both people are experiencing. We don't have 318 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 5: as much language around men's changes at midlife, but certainly 319 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 5: there are changes there as well. And then lots of lubricant, 320 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 5: just so much loop shame about. 321 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: By stock and loop right right there. 322 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 5: It's available. 323 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 3: It's just yeah. 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: Because one thing that really hit me in your book 325 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: is when you talk about one of the biggest libido 326 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: killers is the shame and blame. And I think that 327 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: that is very common in the menopausal years where and 328 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: I've certainly felt this myself, where I've felt this level 329 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: of shame of not feeling like I want to have 330 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: sex anymore, and then I feel guilty. And then from 331 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: that place of feeling ashamed and guilty, there's no way 332 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: my libido's got a chance at raising its hit at 333 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: that point. So that really stood out to me. It's like, 334 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: of course I need to address that in order to 335 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: feel I want to be intimate again with it can. 336 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: So how do you address that? 337 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 5: Well, I think that's the first step is just knowing. 338 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 5: I think so often we don't know what's happening. We 339 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 5: don't don't we don't name it as what's happening. All 340 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 5: we know is I'm either pissed off at you because 341 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 5: you keep wanting this thing that I don't want to 342 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 5: give or do, or I'm pissed off at me because 343 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 5: what's wrong with me and I'm broken. And so I 344 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 5: think the first part is naming it for sure and 345 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 5: being able to talk about it in the relational space 346 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,479 Speaker 5: and sort of grieve it together, you know, like that 347 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 5: this is it's hard, that this is harder than it 348 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 5: used to be at other times in our life, like 349 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 5: just being able to kind of sit together and like 350 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 5: this is just this is hard for us, Like our 351 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 5: sex life isn't the way that it used to be 352 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 5: and then I think, so you know, when when the 353 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 5: female partner is the is also the lower desire partner. 354 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 5: I think one thing that can really help is for 355 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 5: to kind of just shift the polarity, like let her 356 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 5: take the lead, like give because what happens is like 357 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 5: the more the sort of his initiation in her refusal 358 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 5: or lack of interest, like, the more that kind of 359 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 5: keeps going, it takes on a life of its own. 360 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 5: So I think one thing that can be helpful is 361 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 5: for the couple to agree that he's not going to 362 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 5: initiate and that she's going to she's going to take 363 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 5: the lead on it, and that can be helpful just 364 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 5: in terms of it kind of can take some of 365 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 5: the pressure off. Another thing I think is really helpful 366 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 5: is is that can be helpful and couples have to 367 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 5: play with this is sort of like my friend doctor 368 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 5: Steven Schneider calls it simmering, which is just making a 369 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 5: lot of space in the relationship for touch, dance, holding hands, kissing, 370 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 5: things that aren't going necessarily to lead to sex, but 371 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 5: there's just a lot of space for touch and closeness 372 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 5: that just helps her throughout the day kind of keep 373 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 5: that door open that oh yes, I am a woman 374 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 5: and I am a lover and I am embodied, and 375 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 5: that does feel good because sometimes what happens when you 376 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 5: get stuck in that cycle of pursuer and like gatekeeper 377 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 5: is that then every touch he offers feels like, oh God, 378 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 5: he wants it, and now I have to figure out 379 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 5: whether I want it and how I'm going to handle that. 380 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 5: So for the couple to agree, Listen, we're gonna be 381 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 5: doing lots of touch and it might be a two 382 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 5: minute makeout, or it might be that we get in 383 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 5: the shower together, but we have to do it without 384 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 5: the expectations going to lead to something, because it just 385 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 5: maybe helps me remember how much I love being near 386 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 5: your body, and it sort of is like that simmering 387 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 5: so that then I feel closer to my erratic self 388 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 5: versus my erotic self is somewhere like in a box 389 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 5: in the corner, and I have to kind of go 390 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 5: and dig it out and unpack it and kind of 391 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 5: like reducing the distance of it. 392 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: It relates back to that idea that I was mentioning 393 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 2: before about that porn issue. With a lot of guys, 394 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: their point of entry into their sexual life is by 395 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: watching porn, especially in today's age. I mean I had 396 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 2: by watching or looking at magazines, you know, and if 397 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 2: one of my dad and one of my my friends' 398 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: dads had a porn stash, you kind of watch his 399 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: VHS tape. But it's this idea that when you're talking 400 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: about sex, is only a vagina and a penis going together. 401 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: I do want to talk about my entire body being 402 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: a penis. As you said, I think that kind of 403 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: thrills me. 404 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 3: Well, that's a visual. 405 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 5: You are just a working penis. 406 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 2: But this is something that Ali and I have been 407 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: working on too, not me being a walking penis, but 408 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: being open to touch and being open to just Also 409 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: what's been a big help is me backing off, Like 410 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: I know that we've been through periods in our marriage. 411 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: We've been married for almost thirty years. So every time 412 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: I come near her, she thinks, oh my god, he's 413 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 2: gonna he's just gonna want to have sex again, and 414 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. So I've sort of 415 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: left it in her court now and that has worked 416 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: take the pressure off. 417 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 5: I think that there are ways that we as women 418 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 5: when we're when we are in the dynamic, which is 419 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 5: a you know, the dynamic in my marriage as well, 420 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 5: that we as women can sort of like lose sight 421 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 5: of the pain that is associated with saying no to 422 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 5: our partner, and so can then no be accompanied with 423 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 5: you know, but I would love to lay. 424 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 3: In your arms. 425 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 5: But just so you know, I do love having sex 426 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 5: with you, like just ways in which we can sort 427 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 5: of say, you know, I find you attractive, I am 428 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 5: drawn to you, like I do love you, I would 429 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 5: love I would be interested in connecting with you in 430 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 5: this way, so that it is I think sometimes for 431 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 5: we as women can lose sight of the fact that 432 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 5: for a man, oftentimes sex is a gateway to just 433 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 5: feeling okay, to just feeling loved, and so that if 434 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 5: it feels like it's the only way a man can 435 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 5: feel loved, and that's kind of a fraught arena. I 436 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 5: want to make sure that we're building in other ways 437 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 5: for that sense of you are loved, you are valuable, 438 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 5: you are attractive, You mean a lot to me, that 439 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 5: there's other ways of conveying that message. 440 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: That's wonderful because I know that there's been times I've 441 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: had to reassure you that it's not that I'm thinking 442 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: about other men. I don't want to have sex with 443 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: other men. It's still only you that I want to 444 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: have sex with. It's just that my libido is taking 445 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: a little break right now. And that's reassured you in 446 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: that way, right. 447 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 448 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: You know, if I don't feel you're attracted to me, 449 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: and in what Alexander is saying, you know, to still 450 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: know that I find you attractive. That also takes the 451 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: coldness out of it of just no sex at all. 452 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 2: The bit that I respond to most is when we 453 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: talk about it, right, Because when we don't discuss, when 454 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 2: we're not open about what's going on, that's when I'm 455 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: left in this nether world going, I don't know where 456 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: you're at, and I jumped projections. I think you must 457 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: be thinking about other dudes. You must be you know, 458 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. My mind goes down all 459 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: sorts of Alice in Wonderland, wormholes. 460 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 461 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, but when we discuss it, it's good. We're talking 462 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 2: to doctor Alexandra Solomon, who wrote the book Taking set Back. 463 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: It's such a pleasure to have you with us, doctor Ali, 464 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: Doctor Alie, I've got to Ali's here. We got a 465 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: question from one of our listeners, and I'm going to 466 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: read it out. Her husband refuses to have a vseectomy, 467 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: and it's a point of contention between them because she 468 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 2: feels that she's birthed three children. The least he can 469 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: do is get the snips, so she's no longer the 470 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: one carrying the responsibility. Any thoughts about that. 471 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 5: That's a great question. 472 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I. 473 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 5: Can imagine that they've gotten into a cycle of if 474 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 5: you loved me, you would just go ahead and do it, 475 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 5: and then he says back, if you love me, you 476 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 5: wouldn't ask me to do it. And that's oftentimes how 477 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 5: those nuts go. You get kind of like bound up 478 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 5: in you know, you should change, No, you should change. 479 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 5: And So the way I want them to talk about it 480 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 5: is I would want if I was sitting with the 481 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 5: two of them and I was the couple's therapist, I 482 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 5: would want to get very close to him and try 483 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 5: to understand from his perspective what the concerns are, what 484 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 5: the constraints are, like, what's getting in the way. I 485 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 5: don't I don't know what the story is. And if 486 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 5: it's a story about somehow he feels, I don't know, 487 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 5: like he would be emasculated. You know by getting an assectomy, 488 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 5: then I would want to maybe support him doing some 489 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 5: work around how his masculinity is so much bigger and 490 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 5: deeper and wider than whether or not sperm comes out 491 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 5: when he ejaculates or not. If it's a concern about 492 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 5: it's going to kill his libido, I want him to 493 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 5: get medical input around that. It's like, I want I 494 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 5: want her to really have a chance to understand what's 495 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 5: getting in his way, and that's really that would be 496 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 5: my starting point. But it's certainly from where I stand, 497 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 5: it seems like a wholly reasonable request. I think that 498 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 5: maybe having not lived as a woman in his lifetime, 499 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 5: he may really kind of not understand how complicated a 500 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 5: woman's relationship with birth control is, and that it is 501 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 5: usually a many, many decade journey of figuring out what 502 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 5: birth control to use and they all have side effects, 503 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 5: and that it can be I can imagine at this 504 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 5: point in the game in their journey, she just would 505 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 5: love to live in a world where she's not thinking 506 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 5: about that, and I would want him to be I 507 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 5: would want him to I would want him to feel 508 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 5: really proud of doing something that would free her mind 509 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 5: up a bit, you know, that it would be rather 510 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 5: than emasculating, it's so profoundly loving to free her up 511 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 5: from that responsibility. 512 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: And she'll bring him lots of food. When he's sitting 513 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: with a bag of frozen peas on he's growing watching 514 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: the football as he recovers, absolutely it's love. 515 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: When I was reading your book, there's an overwhelming feeling 516 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: for me. It was like sitting with a girlfriend and 517 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: just talking a very wise girlfriend, I must say, talking 518 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: about sex, talking about sexuality, and how you were saying, 519 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: you know, you're okay, you can change those negative thoughts 520 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: to have the relationship with your body first and foremost, 521 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: and from there with your partner. And as I said, 522 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: I've underlined and dogged so many things. You have the 523 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: beautiful way of being so inclusive of the LGBTQ community. 524 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: We have our son who's gay, and I'm just appreciate 525 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: that so much. How that is throughout the book, and 526 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: just this feeling that you really care about women having 527 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,479 Speaker 1: their sexy back, don't you. 528 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 5: I do. I do care about it. I and I 529 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 5: do care about writing in a way that feels like 530 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 5: everybody belongs, that there's a space for everybody. And I, yeah, 531 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 5: having been heterosexual my whole life. I'm aware of that privilege, 532 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 5: and I have so much empathy for what it must 533 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 5: be like to feel like your sexuality is somehow wrong 534 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 5: right from the get go, to have to before you've 535 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 5: even kissed anybody, right to feel like somehow you are wrong. 536 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 5: You are left out of the conversation. And I was 537 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 5: really aware that if I was going to do a 538 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 5: book on sex, I needed to make sure that everybody 539 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 5: felt like they had a place. 540 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: In the book. 541 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 5: And it's challenging because sex and gender are so entwined, 542 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 5: Like it's so everything about sex has to do with 543 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 5: the bodies that we live in in our genitals and 544 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 5: gender role, socialization, and those things are different once once 545 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 5: people step out of the heterosexual script, there's a kind 546 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 5: of expansiveness of possibility, but also but also clearly like 547 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 5: a heavy burden to carry around what it's like to 548 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 5: be marginalized. 549 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you did it beautifully, So thank you for 550 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: writing the way that you do. There's there's pages in 551 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: there that are actually a work book. 552 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: There's quizzes, there's. 553 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: Questions that you ask yourself all the way through the book. 554 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: It's divided into chapters and there are questions that I've 555 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: never asked myself. And I think it's a great cam 556 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: and I were talking. I think it's a great book 557 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: for guys to read. It is about women, but I 558 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: think honey, like I'm looking at my husband going honey, honey. 559 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this is good. You know this is good 560 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: and I do plan on reading it. I've read bits 561 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: of it. Ally's given it, Tommy. So we just want 562 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: to thank you for being on our show today, and 563 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: we've got a ton of other questions. Will you come back? 564 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 5: Absolutely absolutely, I would come back. And so it's fun 565 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 5: that you are delightful to talk to and so exciting 566 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 5: to be able to connect from around the entire globe 567 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 5: and have this conversation, so an intimate conversation that spans 568 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 5: so many miles. 569 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: How was that for you? 570 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 3: That was an awesome chat. I what do they call it? 571 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: A girl crush? Woman crush? Wow? You a fascinating next thing? 572 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 3: Yeah you try it? 573 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic. Thank you so much for listening. If you've 574 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: got any more questions or comments about today's podcast, hit 575 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: us up on Facebook or Instagram. 576 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: I'm a Cameron Dado, I'm at Ali Dado. Yeah, that 577 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: was amazing. And if I think for guys too, I'm 578 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: certainly going to read it. 579 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: Just slide the slide that book over to the to 580 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: your guys side or your partner's side, and see if 581 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: they can have a little glance through it, and we 582 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: just might learn a few things