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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February eighteen, twenty twenty six. Cultural leaders and

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Speaker 1: artists have deliberately marginalized Jewish Australians. That's according to Archibald

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Speaker 1: and Sulman Prize winning painter Tim Storier. He says art

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Speaker 1: has become driven by ideology and identity politics. Jewish Australians

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Speaker 1: and Palestinians say they're experiencing racism at university campuses. In

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Speaker 1: a new report by the Australian Human Rights Commission, roughly

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Speaker 1: ninety percent out of thirteen hundred Jewish students and staff

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Speaker 1: and one hundred Palestinians surveyed said they had experienced racism

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Speaker 1: directly or indirectly at university. Indigenous, Chinese, Middle Eastern and

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Speaker 1: Northeast Asian respondents all reported experiences of racism at race

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Speaker 1: over eighty percent. Its corporate humiliation on a grand scale.

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Speaker 1: The corporate watchdog the a Triple C is dragging Coals

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Speaker 1: Supermarkets through the Federal Court, seeking to prove the supermarket

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Speaker 1: giant broke the law by misleading shoppers with fake discounts.

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Speaker 1: Regulators are also leveling the same charges at Woolworths. In

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Speaker 1: today's episode, we look at exactly what the retailers are

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Speaker 1: accused of, how they're defending themselves, and what the stakes

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Speaker 1: will be for.

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Speaker 2: Every other retailer.

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Speaker 1: Angelica Snowden is a business reporter with The Australian and

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Speaker 1: she's been in the Federal Court watching Coals try to

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Speaker 1: fight off the corporate watchdog v A Triple C in

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Speaker 1: a case over its down Down discount program. And what

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Speaker 1: exactly is the a trible C accusing Coals of having done?

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Speaker 1: And let's get granular here. I want to hear what

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Speaker 1: they've done with the deodorant and the newd allegedly.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so Claire, what the ariple C is alleging is

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Speaker 3: Coles have effectively misled consumers with their down Down promotion.

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Speaker 3: We all know the promotion, we know the jingle. One

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Speaker 3: of the examples that first off the bat was used

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Speaker 3: in court on Monday when the h PLEC opened their

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Speaker 3: case was a discussion about a can of dog food.

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Speaker 2: So what they said.

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Speaker 3: Was for a period of two hundred and ninety six days.

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Speaker 3: This can of Nature's Gift Wets dog food was advertised

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Speaker 3: for four dollars for a short period of time, it

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Speaker 3: increased in price to six dollars and then immediately afterwards

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Speaker 3: was placed on the Downtown program and advertised at four

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Speaker 3: dollars fifty. So you can see here what the HRIPRAC

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Speaker 3: are saying is that actually the price has not dropped significantly,

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Speaker 3: and in fact the price is actually more than the

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Speaker 3: original four dollars.

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Speaker 1: And of course Coals would argue that the price of

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Speaker 1: everything is going up, that they have absorbed price rises

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Speaker 1: on a whole lot of products, but.

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Speaker 2: They can't keep doing that forever.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly what they're arguing. That we're experiencing intense inflation,

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Speaker 3: so they're battling with that. They're also battling suppliers on

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Speaker 3: the other hand, who are negotiating with them about price

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Speaker 3: increases as well. So you can see the push and

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Speaker 3: pull that they're dealing with here. But ultimately the HBAC

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Speaker 3: is pushing this case. It first launched about eighteen months ago,

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Speaker 3: and now they're fighting it out in the federal court.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it. Andrew.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I walk around the

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Speaker 1: supermarket kind of ignoring the discount signs because I'm a

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Speaker 1: bit cynical about them. I don't really think that often

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Speaker 1: they are real discounts, and if you look closely, it

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Speaker 1: might be fifteen cents or five cents, that is the

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Speaker 1: discount it's being advertised. What do you think do consumers

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Speaker 1: really expect that a discount sticker means something these days?

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Speaker 3: I would have agreed with you, Claire. However, this case

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Speaker 3: is very interesting because the ahriple c was actually tipped

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Speaker 3: off by consumers in particular on social media, who were

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Speaker 3: tracking these strange price fluctuations.

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Speaker 4: Suck Coals. It was twelve, it's now ten from seven

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Speaker 4: dollars fifty.

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Speaker 1: Here's a product that's fifteen fifty, save fifteen fifty. But

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Speaker 1: if you look at the price history, it's been alternating

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Speaker 1: between those two prices every seven days.

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Speaker 2: Here we go again, Coles trying to dupe us.

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Speaker 1: All half the price was nineteen dollars, No one, sixteen

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Speaker 1: dollars ten.

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Speaker 3: We basically have social media investigators examining really closely the

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Speaker 3: price changes and how they compare with what Coals are

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Speaker 3: telling us is being discounted, and it makes sense. We

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Speaker 3: have seen huge price increases across groceries acros every day

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Speaker 3: household items. It makes sense to me that consumers would

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Speaker 3: be keeping a very close eye on claims like these.

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Speaker 1: When the corporate watchdog goes after a company for doing

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Speaker 1: anything any breach of consumer law, one option for the

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Speaker 1: company is to settle that and go into negotiations, agree

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Speaker 1: to pay some sort of penalty, say that they're sorry,

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Speaker 1: make it all go away. That hasn't happened in this instance.

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Speaker 1: Do you know why did Coles try to settle this

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Speaker 1: out of court?

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Speaker 3: I think the issue is that the parties are too

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Speaker 3: far away from each other, and frankly, this is a

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Speaker 3: very good opportunity for the ahrible C to really show

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Speaker 3: its teeth, particularly on this issue. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: they had attempted to settle prior, but as I understand

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Speaker 3: it from listening to two days of court hearing so far,

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Speaker 3: that the question is very simple for the court to determine,

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Speaker 3: which is what did the tickets convey and was it misleading?

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Speaker 3: And clearly the AGABLEC and Coals are at a log

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Speaker 3: ahead about whether or not it was.

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Speaker 1: Does the AGABLEC have to prove that Coals had an

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Speaker 1: intention to deceive or just that the effect of them

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Speaker 1: for the ordinary reasonable shopper was that they were misleading.

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Speaker 3: They have to prove that the ordinary and reasonable shopper

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Speaker 3: was misled by the claims. What Coles say in their

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Speaker 3: defense is that the price drops were faired income. These

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Speaker 3: are words that we heard in the federal court. They

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Speaker 3: say the price drops were genuine, they were fared income.

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Speaker 3: So if we take the tin of dog food example,

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Speaker 3: the tin started at six dollars and it dropped to

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Speaker 3: four dollars fifty, they say this was a genuine price drop,

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Speaker 3: and therefore the ordinary consumer would think, fine, it's on sale.

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Speaker 2: This is big business.

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Speaker 1: These are some of the most powerful companies in this

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Speaker 1: alien marketplace. They of course have I'm sure pretty watertight

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Speaker 1: contracts with their staff, and their internal communications are.

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Speaker 2: All locked up.

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Speaker 1: It seems though, that the HRIABLEC has got access to

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Speaker 1: some internal coals documents. How did they get those and

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Speaker 1: what are they showing.

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Speaker 3: We haven't seen the internal documents yet, but we know.

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Speaker 3: As I said, this investigation started off with consumer tips

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Speaker 3: as well as social media investigations. What we know is

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Speaker 3: that the A Trible C exercised its right to conduct

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Speaker 3: a really thorough investigation and from the documents that I

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Speaker 3: have seen that track the differences in price and price

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Speaker 3: drops for about two hundred and sixty products two hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty products for Coals over period of eighteen months.

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Speaker 3: There's forensic tracking of fluctuations and volatility in prices. On Monday,

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Speaker 3: what was discussed in court were internal emails that were

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Speaker 3: exchanged between Coals staff members. The context of that was

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Speaker 3: is that they were aware of Woolwors engaging in similar

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Speaker 3: conduct and effectively, they were really concerned that they wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be able to compete with wool Words if their price

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Speaker 3: drops were happening as quickly and as widespread as they were.

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Speaker 3: So in one example, we saw a Cole staff member

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Speaker 3: actually asking another colleague if they should alert the AHRIBLEC

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Speaker 3: to this conduct. However, instead what they sought to do

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Speaker 3: was ramp up I guess the rate at which they

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Speaker 3: would add products to their down down program.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you mentioned Woolies because it's the two

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Speaker 1: year anniversary nearly and of the twenty twenty four moment

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Speaker 1: when Brad Banducci blew up his career on television. This

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Speaker 1: was the former chief executive of Woolworths. He was doing

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Speaker 1: in an interview with BABC and it was asked about

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Speaker 1: some comments from a former competition watchdog Rod Simms about

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Speaker 1: Coals and Woolies being allegedly anti competitive. Brad Banducci had

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Speaker 1: to go at him and then he tried to retract

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Speaker 1: those comments, and when he wasn't allowed to retract them,

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Speaker 1: he stormed out of the interview.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well can we take that out? Is that? Okay?

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Speaker 4: I mean he is retired, but I shouldn't have said that.

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Speaker 4: Are we going to leave it in there? If we are?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean we're on the record he said it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, let's let's move on. But yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: I think I'm done. Guys. You know I do this

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Speaker 4: is a good intent. You know, I don't do this

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Speaker 4: a bad intent. You're walking out? Really? No, no? Can

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Speaker 4: we just talk about.

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Speaker 1: Very shortly afterwards, he left his role as Sea of Wilworts.

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Speaker 1: But Warlworts is also very much in the frame of

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Speaker 1: the A Triple C. So where are those proceedings against

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Speaker 1: Woolworths at and are they basically accused of doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing?

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Speaker 3: Well, was are accused of doing essentially the same thing

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Speaker 3: across a range of everyday items, similar time period they

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Speaker 3: have also been accused of misleading consumers. But with their

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Speaker 3: prices dropped, program Woollies are really going to be sweating

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Speaker 3: on this one, Claire. It's a big deal. There's big

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Speaker 3: money involved here. They're not in the courtroom yet but

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Speaker 3: due to start in late April early May.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a class action going on against both

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Speaker 1: these supermarkets, brought by consumers who reckon they've been ripped off.

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Speaker 1: How are the courts handling the fact that this is

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Speaker 1: these other lawsuits going on at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they're being heard at the exact same time, because

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Speaker 3: as I understand it, their allegations are very similar. So Cole's,

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Speaker 3: for example, the HBC case is live, as is the

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Speaker 3: class action against Coals, and that's what I understand to

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Speaker 3: be happening with Woolies too.

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Speaker 2: Lots of lawyers, lots of money.

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Speaker 3: The lawyers always win, as they say, let's.

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Speaker 1: Talk about the stakes here for Coals and of course

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Speaker 1: Woolworth and every other retailer in the Australian marketplace.

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Speaker 2: The supermarkets have had a rough kind of decade or so.

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Speaker 1: First, they introduced milk for just one dollar, which saw

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Speaker 1: farmers accuse them of ripping them off. During COVID, people

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Speaker 1: were fighting each other in the supermarket ass for toilet paper,

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Speaker 1: and they've had turnover of chief executives for some of

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Speaker 1: the reasons we've mentioned above. How does this compare, do

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Speaker 1: you think in terms of reputational risk for Coals and Woolies.

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Speaker 3: It's a really interesting question, and I will never forget

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Speaker 3: the footage of people fighting over toilet paper, by the way,

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Speaker 3: during COVID stuck in my mind forever. But this question

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Speaker 3: about reputational risk is very interesting. I was just discussing

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Speaker 3: it with a colleague who pointed out to me that Coals,

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Speaker 3: compared to Woolworths share price over the last couple of months,

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Speaker 3: is outperforming Woolies. So when you talk about reputational risk,

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Speaker 3: I guess the market isn't too concerned with these allegations

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Speaker 3: at the moment. But what will be very interesting is

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Speaker 3: the outcome of the case. Should the federal court find

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Speaker 3: that consumers were misled by the downdown program, it seems

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Speaker 3: to me that would cause a fair bit of reputational

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Speaker 3: damage given how widespread this program is. We all know

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Speaker 3: the program the down Down jingle, as I said, so

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Speaker 3: I would say they're at risk of reputational damage.

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Speaker 1: The A Triple C is an independent agency, of course,

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Speaker 1: but this is a great look for the federal government,

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Speaker 1: which wants consumers taxpayers to think that they care about

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Speaker 1: the cost of living, that government agencies are doing everything

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Speaker 1: that they can to make sure shoppers get a fair deal.

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Speaker 1: Gina Cascottlieb is the head of the A Triple C,

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Speaker 1: and she came into the job saying she was going

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Speaker 1: to go after petrol retailers and supermarkets. How do you

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Speaker 1: think she's shaping up in this role and how is

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Speaker 1: business responding to this kind of campaign of terror that

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Speaker 1: she's running.

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Speaker 3: I think Gena Cascottlieb has shown over the last eighteen

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Speaker 3: months two years in particular, that the AGABRAC is prepared

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Speaker 3: to take big business identities individuals to court if they

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Speaker 3: believe they are doing the wrong thing and they have

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Speaker 3: a strong enough case, they're not afraid to attempt to

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Speaker 3: prosecute them. This is a pretty big change from a

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Speaker 3: few years before that, I suppose, when regulators like the

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Speaker 3: AHABRAC were copping a lot of criticism about failing to

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Speaker 3: take crooks to court and to challenge potential wrongdoing. That

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Speaker 3: members of the community had seen. I think for Gina

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Speaker 3: Cascottlieb in particular, she's the chair of the Competition Watchdog,

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Speaker 3: which is really a watchdog for the everyday man and

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Speaker 3: women and the mums and dads who are walking down

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Speaker 3: the aisles of coals and Woollies trying to reduce the

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Speaker 3: cost of their weekly shops, for example. So I think

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Speaker 3: they need to show that they are doing something about

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Speaker 3: concerns that the community has and that they can.

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Speaker 2: Act on them. Angelicas Noden, thank you very much. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Angelicus Noden is a business reporter with The Australian. You

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Speaker 1: can check out her rolling coverage of this story and

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Speaker 1: all the nation's best business reporting right now at Beaustralian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au