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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch killers. Now, can

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Speaker 1: you imagine spending over twenty years in prison for a

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Speaker 1: crime you didn't commit, going into that prison as a

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Speaker 1: teenager and coming out as a middle aged man. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to comprehend how he would survive such an injustice. Well,

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Speaker 1: today we're going to speak to someone that that happened to.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is ever Risto Salis, a teenage boy of

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Speaker 1: Mexican Descent, who was convicted and in prison for the

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Speaker 1: murder of Jose Aurelio in California in the United States

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five. Everisto always maintained his innocence regarding

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Speaker 1: this violent crime, but when he was just sixteen, he

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Speaker 1: was convicted and sentenced thirty two years and nine months

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Speaker 1: in an adult prison. After years of legal battles, he

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Speaker 1: was officially exonerated of the crime in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk to Everisto about his life before

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Speaker 1: during the following his release from prison. It's a fascinating story.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to examine miscarriages of justice and the

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Speaker 1: need for scrutiny in.

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Speaker 2: The legal process.

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Speaker 1: I have no doubt you're going to find this a

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Speaker 1: heavy discussion, but I think when you hear what he's

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Speaker 1: got to say, you might also find some inspiration in

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Speaker 1: his story. Everista Sallas, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Nice to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I really.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate you you coming on the podcast because we had

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Speaker 1: a chat before we started, and I pointed out the

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Speaker 1: fact that I was a homicide cop for a long time. Now,

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Speaker 1: of all people to have resentment, distrust or whatever in

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Speaker 1: regards to talking to a cop. So I appreciate you, appreciate.

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Speaker 3: You coming on, thank you for having me. I really

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Speaker 3: appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I got to say up front, you got

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Speaker 1: every right to be bitter and resentful. Like going in

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Speaker 1: the prison as a young fella aged what sixteen two

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Speaker 1: days in the sixteenth year, sentenced to thirty two years

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Speaker 1: and nine months imprisonment, I think it was, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: sentence as an adult, even though you're a kid at

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Speaker 1: at sixteen and an adult prison, that's a pretty heavy

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Speaker 1: situation to find yourself in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely was. And the age of peteen, I

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Speaker 3: couldn't really comprehend the magnet to that situation. Even the

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Speaker 3: time that they had given me was too big of

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Speaker 3: a number for me to understand at that moment. And

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Speaker 3: what's strange about that is my ignorance as a child.

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Speaker 3: It actually prevented me kind of from really dealing with

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Speaker 3: it emotionally, and that helped me in a sense, because

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Speaker 3: I think if I really understood the magnitude of what

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Speaker 3: I was facing, I might have crumbled under that pressure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's interesting you say that, but you are naive

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Speaker 1: at that age. You really have no appreciation what the

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Speaker 1: world's about, and so the full ramifications of what faced

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Speaker 1: you for the next thirty two years probably didn't really

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Speaker 1: sink in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the first two or three years, I kind of

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Speaker 3: lived in that ignorance, you know, And I think that

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Speaker 3: was a way that I protected myself. I think thinking

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Speaker 3: about what took place and what happened to me in

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Speaker 3: my life was too big for me, not only to

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Speaker 3: understand but to deal with. At that moment. I didn't

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Speaker 3: have really the experience or the understanding of how to

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Speaker 3: deal with that emotionally and mentally. And even here I

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Speaker 3: was sitting in a place I've never been, a hostile

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Speaker 3: environment where everything and everyone seemed to be trying to

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Speaker 3: take advantage in one form of another. And I think

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Speaker 3: that as a child, I dealt with to the best

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Speaker 3: way I could, and that was intervention.

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Speaker 1: The fact I sit here talking to you now, and

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Speaker 1: I've heard you talk on in other interviews and read

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Speaker 1: a bit about you, the fact that you've escaped through

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Speaker 1: that experience that you've gone through and don't have a

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Speaker 1: resentment and an anger, and that maybe I'm wrong, but you,

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Speaker 1: to me, you come across as someone that Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: that was a big setback in life of the huge dimensions.

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Speaker 1: But you don't seem to carry a bitterness and a resentment.

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Speaker 1: Is that Where does that mindset come from?

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Speaker 3: Well, it was a choice. I mean it became a

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Speaker 3: choice in prison because that resentment was there, and that

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Speaker 3: was that was a second phase of what I had

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Speaker 3: to go through. Once I begin to understand, once I

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Speaker 3: got older and matured and mentally, I begin to see

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Speaker 3: what happened to me, what took place, and what came

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Speaker 3: was anger and bitterness, anger with the system. I didn't

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Speaker 3: know at that time that the cop had set me up.

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Speaker 3: I just assumed that it was just a part of

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Speaker 3: this long struggle that had dealt with in my life

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Speaker 3: of just you know, life just throwing in these punches

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Speaker 3: at me. And it was another one of those things.

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Speaker 3: And I grew angry with everything around me, and it

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Speaker 3: took I think it was it was dipping into that

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Speaker 3: madness and that anger and that frustration that led me

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Speaker 3: down a path in prison to a point in my

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Speaker 3: life where where I was I was isolated, I couldn't

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Speaker 3: function mentally, and I had to make a choice at

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Speaker 3: that moment, a moment of a kind of a self

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Speaker 3: preservation of how I wanted to live my life. Because

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Speaker 3: I was already in the cage physically and at that moment,

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Speaker 3: living in anger. I was in the cage mentally too,

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Speaker 3: and I decided at that moment that I had to

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Speaker 3: rise above them. I had to make the choice, a

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Speaker 3: conscious decision, to say, you know what this happened to me. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I can't change it at this moment. I can fight

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Speaker 3: to change it, but I don't have to live my

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Speaker 3: life mentally as I'm still in a prison. I can

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Speaker 3: find a way to free myself and begin to live.

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Speaker 3: And it was a choice, you know, and that choice

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Speaker 3: was hard, you know, for me to accept. But I

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Speaker 3: decided that I wasn't going to hold on to anger, frustration,

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Speaker 3: and hatred because that in itself was the prison, and

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Speaker 3: that was a prison that I created for myself. And

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Speaker 3: I had to let go then. And I had to

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Speaker 3: look at the most sporable things in my life, not

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Speaker 3: just the wrongful conviction, but everything prior to that, and

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Speaker 3: I had to forgive with the genuine forgiveness in order

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Speaker 3: for me to live, in order for me to find myself,

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Speaker 3: in order for me to become the person I needed

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Speaker 3: to be that had to go, and that was a

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Speaker 3: choice that I had to make, and I had to

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Speaker 3: be willing to say, you know what, I don't know

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Speaker 3: why this happened or what was behind it, but it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter to me because I'm going to find a

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Speaker 3: way to live and live in peace in this place.

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Speaker 3: And when I made that decision, I had I had

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Speaker 3: to kind of make the decision every single day because

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Speaker 3: that anger with Flerero. But that was probably the most

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Speaker 3: screen moment in my entire life in prison, was letting

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Speaker 3: gore that burden, because that had carried me down, that

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Speaker 3: had almost destroyed me and didn't allow me to see

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Speaker 3: beyond the file of the pain and suffering that I

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Speaker 3: was going through. But once I let a go, I

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Speaker 3: could see with clarity and I could make decisions that

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Speaker 3: they were better my life rather than destroyer. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I suppose it's the one thing that you can control,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. There was nothing else about your life that

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Speaker 1: you could really had control of the environment that you

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Speaker 1: were in, But you can control your own own emotions

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Speaker 1: and own thought process. So we're going to delve deep

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Speaker 1: into that during the podcast how you worked your way

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Speaker 1: through that anger. But let's get the audience to find

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Speaker 1: out a little bit about yourself, where you grew up,

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Speaker 1: what was your upbringing like, and tell us your story.

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Speaker 3: Basically, I was born in reised in Sunny Start last time.

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Speaker 3: My entire life there to the age of fifteen until

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Speaker 3: I was charging and wrongly convicted. The environment that I

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Speaker 3: grew up in was pretty hostile. I grew up with

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Speaker 3: a mother who was an alcoholic. My biological father was

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Speaker 3: never in my life. I knew who he was, but

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Speaker 3: he was a stranger to me. He lived in the

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Speaker 3: same small town that I lived in. The town that

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Speaker 3: I live in was only about ten thousand people at

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Speaker 3: the time. It's only about sixteen thousand now, so it's

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Speaker 3: a small, conservative, farming town. It was kind of probably

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Speaker 3: about fifty or sixty percent of Hispanic back when I

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Speaker 3: was in the nineties. Now it's up to about eighty

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Speaker 3: or ninety percent of his Spanic. So the environment was

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Speaker 3: starting with my parents. Being with my mother who was

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Speaker 3: so chaotic and in the drugs and alcohol. That was

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the struggle of my life because everything

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Speaker 3: that she brought into her life she brought into our

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Speaker 3: life and I had to accept it. She split with

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Speaker 3: my stepfather who raised me and who I believe is

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Speaker 3: my real father. And I don't call him my stepfather,

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Speaker 3: but I do that just for clarity. And he was

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Speaker 3: probably the only thing stable in my entire life. But

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Speaker 3: he split with my mother when I was about five

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Speaker 3: or six. But their relationship was pretty chaotic because my

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Speaker 3: mother would leave and then come back drunk around some

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Speaker 3: kind of drugs, and so it was. It was a

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Speaker 3: constant feeling with insecurity. When they split, my mom decided

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Speaker 3: that she didn't want me no more for whatever reason.

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Speaker 3: I came back from school one day and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: find anybody there. My sisters weren't there. I have one

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Speaker 3: older sister, one younger sister, and one younger brother. At

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Speaker 3: the time, you know, I was seven or eight, my

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Speaker 3: younger brother. I think i'd just been been born. And

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Speaker 3: nobody was there when I returned from home. And at

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Speaker 3: first I thought, maybe they're in the back room, so

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Speaker 3: I went to the ground. I couldn't find anybody, and

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Speaker 3: I began to panic, and I began to yell from

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Speaker 3: my mom. I couldn't I couldn't yell her name, and

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Speaker 3: she didn't append then she just I couldn't find it.

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Speaker 3: Where and then once I kind of just gave up

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Speaker 3: and started kind of sobbing in one of the rooms,

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Speaker 3: stinking that maybe she had just left me. I mean,

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Speaker 3: everything was still there, but I just couldn't make sense

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Speaker 3: of the situation. And then my mom peered out of

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Speaker 3: nowhere and kind of just walked past me and kind

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Speaker 3: of had this like she didn't see me. So I

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Speaker 3: felt this kind of this this moment of happiness, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: there's my mom. So I jump up and I kind

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Speaker 3: of chase her down, and she turns around and looks

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Speaker 3: at me, and she had this kind of weird look

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Speaker 3: in her eyes and it was kind of glossed over.

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Speaker 3: And I had seen my mother, you know, high and

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Speaker 3: on drugs, and she didn't seem like she was on that,

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Speaker 3: but there was something different about what she had in

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Speaker 3: her eyes. And she looked at me kind of in

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Speaker 3: a stoic voice and with no emotion at all. She

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Speaker 3: looks at me and she says, you're a bad kid,

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Speaker 3: and I want you anymore. And it was that direct

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Speaker 3: and that cold, and I couldn't really process what she

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Speaker 3: was saying. It didn't really make sense to me, and

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Speaker 3: she kind of just turned and walked away, and I

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Speaker 3: kind of sat there, kind of lost in my thoughts,

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Speaker 3: sticking understanding what this really meant. And it felt like

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Speaker 3: it just happened, you know, five or ten minutes later,

220
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Speaker 3: but it must have been twenty or thirty minutes later.

221
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Speaker 3: The cops showed up at my house, and he said

222
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Speaker 3: it was two cops and they came into the house

223
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Speaker 3: and and I didn't really understand what they were doing there,

224
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Speaker 3: but as they approached me, my mom kind of spoke

225
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Speaker 3: to him and then she kind of like looked back

226
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Speaker 3: at me, and they kind of started walking towards me.

227
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Speaker 3: I got this kind of gun wrenched feeling like, oh,

228
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Speaker 3: they were going to take me for some reason. And

229
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Speaker 3: they were there. They were there to take me to

230
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Speaker 3: the foster gear. My mom had given me up and

231
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Speaker 3: didn't me anymore, and they literally took me out of

232
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Speaker 3: the house, kicking and screaming. I was begging my mother

233
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Speaker 3: at that point, you know, please gonna let them take me.

234
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 3: I was crying, but like I said, she had that

235
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Speaker 3: kind of indifference look in her eyes, and they pulled

236
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Speaker 3: me out. I was screaming and crying. They were trying

237
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Speaker 3: to control me. They handcuffed me but the cuffs were

238
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Speaker 3: too big and they were just slipping off my hands,

239
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Speaker 3: and so they threw me in the back of the

240
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Speaker 3: cop car, kind of rough handled me a little bit,

241
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Speaker 3: tried to tie me in with the with the seat

242
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Speaker 3: belt and ended up getting the cuffs on me in

243
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Speaker 3: some kind of weird way, and then just took me,

244
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Speaker 3: took me to the police station. I still couldn't really

245
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Speaker 3: figure out where I was going, what was happening, And

246
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Speaker 3: then they said to me, all I wouldn't tell him

247
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Speaker 3: my name, my mother. My mother had told most things,

248
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Speaker 3: but I just kind of was crying and kind of inconsolable.

249
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Speaker 3: And then they took me in the back of cop

250
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Speaker 3: corn or transported me to Yakima County, which is the

251
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Speaker 3: city of Yakoma, which is about forty five miles away.

252
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Speaker 3: Still didn't know where I was going. We got halfway there,

253
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 3: they turned around, and at that moment, I felt like, oh, okay,

254
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Speaker 3: maybe my mom had to change my mind, and I

255
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 3: felt kind of a sense of hope. And when they

256
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,880
Speaker 3: brought me back, they took me my dad. My stepdad

257
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 3: looked in sunny. He must have got word. I don't

258
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Speaker 3: know how he found out, but they had heard that

259
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 3: my mother had had CPS or you know, the chop

260
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Speaker 3: tech servant and taking me somehow he got ahold of

261
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Speaker 3: the police station. They took me to my dad's house,

262
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Speaker 3: and I remember pulling up at my dad's house and

263
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Speaker 3: my dad comes to the back of the cop corn

264
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Speaker 3: as soon as he's seen me. I remember the looking

265
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Speaker 3: his eyes he had, like his face kind of it

266
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Speaker 3: was just like a beat sadness when he see me,

267
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Speaker 3: and he kind of put his head down and kind

268
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Speaker 3: of just started crying. And he says to me, and

269
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Speaker 3: I'm crying. I'm screaming that camp you know I mean.

270
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Speaker 3: And he says to me, tried to call me down.

271
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Speaker 3: He says, he said, your mother loves you. She's just

272
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Speaker 3: in a bad place right now. And I didn't really

273
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Speaker 3: understand iver. I didn't understand that until I got a

274
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Speaker 3: little bit older what that meant. But I remember him

275
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Speaker 3: picking me up, kind of crying at the same time,

276
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Speaker 3: and then taking me into the house. And that began

277
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Speaker 3: the process of me living with my dad and my

278
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Speaker 3: mother kind of not want having to do with me.

279
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Speaker 3: She lived in the same town and not too far away.

280
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Speaker 3: But I think it was two days later I ran

281
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Speaker 3: away and went back to her house. She called the

282
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Speaker 3: cops on me again, and it was the same traumatic

283
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 3: event almost for about two or three weeks, and then

284
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Speaker 3: the last time, I just decided that, yeah, I get

285
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 3: it now. And my father, I mean, he had to work.

286
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Speaker 3: He worked, you know, twelve to thirteen hour days, but

287
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Speaker 3: he had a house, and there was stability there. When

288
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 3: I was living with my mother, we were always they

289
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 3: would always shut the water off, We're always hungry. She

290
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 3: would leave us sometimes for two or three days at

291
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Speaker 3: a time. We'd be just me and my older sister,

292
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Speaker 3: my younger sister by ourselves, and then she would bring

293
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Speaker 3: these men in sometimes and or get to get into

294
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 3: these relationships where she had really abusive ment, and I

295
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 3: seemed to be a target of all them. I don't

296
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 3: understand what the reason was behind that. And so living

297
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,240
Speaker 3: with my dad, even though it was away from my mom,

298
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Speaker 3: who I loved, there was stability there. There was a

299
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 3: commonists there, there was a structure. And although my call

300
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 3: had to work all these hours, he had this strength

301
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 3: towards him, the way he carried himself, and he carried

302
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 3: himself in an honorable way. He wasn't really a religious man.

303
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 3: He was a moralistic man and pragmatic and everything he did.

304
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 3: And you know, so he wasn't a big speaker either.

305
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 3: He didn't speak a lot. I didn't talk a lot,

306
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,760
Speaker 3: but his actions spoke valuance to me. And the way

307
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,520
Speaker 3: he carried himself is how he affected me the most,

308
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 3: which I didn't see at that time, but that came

309
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 3: later when I was in prison, and so that was

310
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 3: kind of the environment that I grew up in. That

311
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 3: The other side of that was that the gangs have

312
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 3: already kind of began to form, you know, began to

313
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 3: grow in the town. You know, they originated in California

314
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 3: and brought down your individual to removing down here. So

315
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 3: that was the other act. My father, being the good

316
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Speaker 3: man he was, he still had to work, so he

317
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 3: was gone the majority of the day when I get

318
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Speaker 3: back from school, which left the void in my arm,

319
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Speaker 3: and I was alone. It was just me and him

320
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 3: for the first years, and then my older sister came

321
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 3: to live with us. Then my younger sister came to

322
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 3: live with us. So my dad end up raising all

323
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 3: three of us by himself. But again it was he

324
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 3: was gone at work. He had to work to support

325
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 3: us and and and you know, get us things we need.

326
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 3: What ended up happening was that it was the gang

327
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 3: that filled that void. You know, there was a part

328
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 3: of me that that I felt missing because my mother

329
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 3: was gone and I was looking for that love and

330
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 3: other things and looking for that acceptance and other things.

331
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,560
Speaker 3: They were going through similar things in their own household,

332
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 3: and it was the tragedy and the trauma of that

333
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 3: moment that caused us to band together. And when I looked,

334
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 3: when I look back at that moment, it wasn't so

335
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 3: much that we decided, oh, we're going to be this

336
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 3: gang or that kind of stuff. It was it was

337
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 3: the trauma of our lives and the understanding that we

338
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,560
Speaker 3: had with each other that formed the bond that in

339
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 3: the you know, morphing into the gang and all that

340
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 3: kind of stuff.

341
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Speaker 1: The YU described that it's understainable that I age, and Yeah,

342
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: I just want to say to you, what a tough,

343
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 1: tough start in life.

344
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 2: But you're lucky that you had your your father. There

345
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 2: was stepfather there.

346
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 1: It's interesting how you talk about getting drawn into gangs,

347
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 1: because I hear on this podcast and throughout my career,

348
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: I saw that happen so many times. It's that sense

349
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 1: of wanting to belong, to be part of something, to

350
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 1: feel you know, you've got your tribe basically, some people

351
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: that care for you and look out for you. So

352
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: what sort of stuff did you get into when you

353
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 1: found your way in the gangs? And what age were

354
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 1: you at this time?

355
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 3: I was about eleven when I started going to hang

356
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,239
Speaker 3: around with them. I didn't really get it onto two.

357
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 3: I was like twelve. But the stuff that we did

358
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 3: was very juvenile in the beginning. It was basically just

359
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 3: walking around protecting each other, fighting with the arrivals here

360
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,360
Speaker 3: and there. Which was strange about it because the town

361
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 3: was so small that we went to school with all

362
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,199
Speaker 3: these kids and they were friends prior, and so it

363
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 3: wasn't really serious. In the beginning. We were fighting, there

364
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,360
Speaker 3: were plates were really that bad, and oh you got

365
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,199
Speaker 3: med this and that kind of stuff. And as you know,

366
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,239
Speaker 3: as I got to about the age of thirteen, then

367
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 3: it became started getting serious. You know, then people started

368
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 3: shooting at us. And the gang I was part of

369
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,120
Speaker 3: was very small and it was an opposition of all

370
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 3: the other gangs in the entire time, and so there

371
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,560
Speaker 3: was about two streets that we didn't control, but that's

372
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 3: where we kind of lived at. That was our neighborhood.

373
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,239
Speaker 3: And so in any direction I went, I would get

374
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 3: chased or drump or shot at. And that's just the

375
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 3: way it was. And it was people that I knew

376
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 3: that I grow, our parents knew each other. That's how

377
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 3: small it was, you know. But now we hated each

378
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,199
Speaker 3: other because of these gangs that brought this in. And

379
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 3: then it was just a weird kind of mixture of

380
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 3: us dealing with each other and finding each other for

381
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 3: no apparent reason. We were too young to kind of

382
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,160
Speaker 3: challenge the challenge. That kind of mindset or it came from.

383
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 3: All we knew was once it started that we hated

384
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 3: this guy boy he jumped you this time, or I

385
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,120
Speaker 3: don't like him because you know, he hit me this time,

386
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 3: or he shot at me this time. And that's what

387
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 3: it became. The kind of daily things that we did

388
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,160
Speaker 3: was just kind of walk around. Sometimes we would steal things,

389
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,360
Speaker 3: you know, or break in the cars or tag up

390
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 3: and just kind of juvenile kind of de linklents. And

391
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 3: then since we were so outnumbered, we were always on

392
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 3: the defense. There was no offensive on any kind of way.

393
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, there was everywhere we went, and

394
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 3: I was very I was really small, and I got

395
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 3: pretty much beat up every single fight that I got into.

396
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 3: There was and there was no I couldn't challenge these

397
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 3: guys that were just too big, and it would always

398
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 3: seem that they I don't know if it was because

399
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 3: I would I would accept I fight them even though

400
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 3: I didn't want to, and I would just take the beating.

401
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 3: But it always seemed like they wanted to fight with me.

402
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 3: And maybe because I was the smaller all of them,

403
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 3: the me with my you know and Spanish called my

404
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: cheese more you think you're you know, well, I'm looking

405
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 3: to back down, and then I.

406
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 2: Would just kidding to stripid Yeah exactly, Yeah.

407
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 3: As if there was something I was gaining from that,

408
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 3: you know. And so I mean those first uh you know,

409
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 3: twelve to thirteen to fourteen, I got beat up a

410
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 3: lot a lot of times, you know, and I found

411
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,719
Speaker 3: myself how to fight, which I think I won my

412
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 3: first one, I think right before I went to prison,

413
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 3: and that was pretty I didn't win. It wasn't like

414
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 3: a big win, but I didn't get beat up.

415
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,920
Speaker 2: You take any take any victory you can't get, yeah.

416
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 3: He didn't give me on the ground this time. I

417
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 3: don't have a black guy. This time, I might do

418
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 3: up on my head of beard. But you know, so

419
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 3: it was it was a small victory, but it just

420
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 3: too a young kid like that, it seemed I think

421
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 3: when when I was twelve thirteen, it didn't seem that serious.

422
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 3: But when they started shooting at us and we're trying

423
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 3: to kill us, that's when I begin to understand that,

424
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 3: you know, I'm part of something that that's not very good.

425
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: You know, by then it was too late that confronted

426
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: you in the big Why I believe you had a

427
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: friend that for the nine year old that was shot

428
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: and killed in your presence.

429
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was seventeen.

430
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: Are you you were full of honey at the time.

431
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 3: I was working, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was working.

432
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

433
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

434
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 1: Talk us through that, because that's the reality of saying

435
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 1: something like that sort of brings at time the world

436
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 1: that you were sublving in.

437
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean we were. It was my friend Robert,

438
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 3: and he was like, almost to a certain states, like

439
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 3: an older brother, and we kind of just connected and

440
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 3: we just formed this kind of inseparable bond. We were

441
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: always with each other and I was younger and he

442
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 3: was older, so he always had a tendency to try

443
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 3: to protect me. And he got into a lot of

444
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 3: fights because of me, you know, Like I said, people

445
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: wud challenged me because I was really small, but you

446
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: would get in for me, and he saved me, I

447
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 3: mean two or three different times of One time, this

448
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 3: guy ran up on me with a knife and almost

449
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 3: stabbed me. He jumped in and almost got stabbed himself.

450
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 3: And then another time, these two guys ran after me

451
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 3: with machetes, which and he stood his ground and he

452
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 3: was telling me to run and I didn't want to

453
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,719
Speaker 3: even there, and they were swinging the machetes at us,

454
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 3: but they didn't. Uh we were kind of were more

455
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 3: new over and so they couldn't. And then they ended

456
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: up bringing away. And it was moments like that that

457
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 3: really kind of solidified our bond together, you know, and

458
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 3: I felt really close to him, and like I said,

459
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 3: it was another one of those things where where you know,

460
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 3: there was something missing in my life and his life,

461
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 3: and that caused us both to kind of you know,

462
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 3: bond towards each other, you know. And and one day

463
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 3: we just went out and I went to his house

464
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 3: and there was you know, a few other friends with us,

465
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: and we went to go walk around. I think, I

466
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: don't I think we're looking for for some weed or

467
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 3: something like that. I wanted to smoke some weed or

468
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 3: something like that. And he was at home and he

469
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 3: didn't actually want to come with us, and I was like, well, hey,

470
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 3: if we can't find all this, we'll just to go

471
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 3: buy some burritles or something, you know. And that's the

472
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 3: soldiers like, oh, I'll take some brieoles in. So we

473
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 3: didn't find us, so we went to the store right

474
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 3: by It was right by his house, and uh. I

475
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: had went inside the store and a car of rivals

476
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: had put up as a full corn end section and

477
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: they ended up kind of rushing the car or fighting

478
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: right there or something. And then I heard a shot

479
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 3: and I walk out and I see, you know, the

480
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 3: car peel out, and I run up to the corner

481
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 3: and my friend's laying on the ground making a weird noise,

482
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 3: rolling on his back, and you can't see anything. It's

483
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 3: not like in the movies or there was a bullow.

484
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 3: We couldn't see anything. There was no blood or nothing.

485
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 3: And we lit up his shirt and there was like

486
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 3: a little weird like bolte right here. But we didn't

487
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,239
Speaker 3: know it at the time, but apparently he had got

488
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: shot in the back and then it had came in

489
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 3: and pierced the part and was literally peeking out of

490
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 3: his chest right here, and he was making a weird noise,

491
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: and then he just stopped making the noise, and we're

492
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: trying to shake him to wake up, and he died

493
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 3: right there, right there in that corner. One of the

494
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: worst part about that is that as we were trying

495
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 3: to kind of get him to wake up, his dad

496
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 3: had pulled up on the intersection, was coming around because

497
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 3: he lived right there and he had to. His two

498
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: little sisters were in the car, and he seemed the

499
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: commotion or something kind of pulled into the driveway and

500
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: somebody yelled at it was his son and everything. He

501
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 3: jumps up and runs out and it's two little stifters

502
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 3: seen that. We're screaming in the background. And eight nineteen

503
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: years old, I can't remember. And and that was that

504
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 3: added tode, you know, to the horrors the horrors of

505
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: that woman, you know. And to me when I lost him,

506
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 3: it was I mean that was to me, it was

507
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 3: it was like I couldn't. I couldn't deal with it anymore.

508
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 3: And it wasn't fun for me at all anymore. And

509
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: that right there kind of solidified my thought process of

510
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: thinking that I have to find a way to get

511
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: out of this. I just I cannot live like this anymore. Yeah.

512
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you that something is confronting

513
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: the saying the friend killed lot that your mind said

514
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: that that time, was that this wasn't the life that

515
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: you wanted to live.

516
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it hit me pretty hard that day.

517
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: And then when we buried him, had already been kind

518
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 3: of thinking about not being a part of this anymore,

519
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 3: because you know, it was just it was just watch

520
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 3: I mean literally we're getting shot at all the time,

521
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 3: you know, and it wasn't like it was it was

522
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: like a weekly thing. And some of these guys that

523
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: didn't even know just because of the color our word

524
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 3: and where I lived at, and if it became too real,

525
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: it wasn't fun anymore. It wasn't a joke, it wasn't

526
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 3: where we're just there for each other. Now we've got

527
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: to survive. And and so that kind of solidified that

528
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: moment in my mind and then became well, how do

529
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: I do that, you know, I mean, I my dad's

530
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: were poor, even though my dad works in a way

531
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 3: where he doesn't. We don't feel that we're poor, but

532
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: we are. We can't just get up and leave. My

533
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: dad at the same time is trying to do everything

534
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 3: best to say it me from that. You know, he

535
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 3: feels bad for the other kids, but lucky here I'm

536
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: his son. But he has no way. I mean, he

537
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: can't just pick up and go somewhere else. And and

538
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: it was just like I felt stuck. And then we

539
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 3: end up burying them. And then the next days when

540
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: they came to my house and charged me murder murder

541
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 3: or not didn't committee So I didn't even have a

542
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 3: time to really cross it at that moment. And then

543
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: I was thrust it into another life changing, you know experience.

544
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: You know, you just on that on that pathway, tell

545
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: us about the murder that you were convicted of, that

546
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: you you didn't commit, but tell us about the circumstances

547
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: surrounding the murder.

548
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 3: Why can't tell that begin for me? And then I

549
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 3: kind of explained what I learned from the cours and stuff.

550
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 3: So it just you know, we buried my friend. You

551
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: know that day the next day that they wake up

552
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: about nine o'clock. These cops I had known my entire life.

553
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 3: You know, they harassed me. I set things to them,

554
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: you know, and so they know who I am. I

555
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: know who they are. You know. I've picked me up

556
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: plenty of times. So they come to the house and

557
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: they want to talk to me about my friend that

558
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: was killed. I hadn't really slept that whole week. I

559
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 3: definitely sleep that night, and I was really mad because

560
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't know anything. I was in the

561
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: store when it happens. I couldn't give them anything. But they, uh,

562
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: we said, all we're just going to take you down there, nass.

563
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: So I just cussed at them, like, I don't know

564
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: why you got always messing with something to that effect.

565
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: And I finally agreed him. I throw, all right, whatever

566
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: you and he'll be back in a few minutes, I said, okay.

567
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: So I remember walking out of my house and I

568
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 3: see two cop cars, and like I said, it became

569
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: so routine for them to pick me up that I

570
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: was used to the process. Sometimes they would cook me up,

571
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes they would you take me to

572
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 3: the police station. Sometimes they wouldn't. But I seen two

573
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: cop cars and I looked at it and it seemed

574
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 3: weird to me, and know, we're like two cop card

575
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 3: two cop cars. But then I just brushed it off.

576
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 3: And when the cop crad went to the police station,

577
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 3: as soon as I got there, they sat me down,

578
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: which was regard in Travino regard being at the leed

579
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 3: detective Travino being a second second hand. They look. He

580
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: looked at me and says, you know why you are here,

581
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 3: and I said, yeah, because my friend Robert, and he

582
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: was like, no, no, so many said he killed somebody.

583
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: And I almost laughed when he said that, because I

584
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 3: was it was like, who, you know, you're trying to

585
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 3: say I killed my friend, you know what I mean?

586
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 3: Because there was nobody that you know that I could

587
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 3: have really kind of understand what they're talking about. And

588
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 3: then they they they always begin this way. This is

589
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: their their interrogation technique, every single time when somebody said

590
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: somebody said that, and so it was almost a routine

591
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: that went through all the time. And then he looks

592
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 3: at me and he said, no, I'm serious. And with

593
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: the way he said that, I'm serious, and I was like,

594
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 3: I said no, no, what you talked himbout? And he said, oh,

595
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: well somebody they killed somebody when you were fourteen years

596
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: old and and six months ago, and I was like,

597
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: And then I was even more lost. I was like,

598
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: I was like, I couldn't even like, what are you

599
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: talking about?

600
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: You?

601
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: I mean they said his name, which is a RL.

602
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: I didn't know that name, was like and then they

603
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: said his uh, his tag name or his gang name

604
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: or what they called him on the street, which was bugs.

605
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: I had heard somebody by that name, but I didn't

606
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 3: know him personally. And he begins to go on with

607
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: someone said that someone so that, and I'm telling him, Look,

608
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: I'm telling you right now, I don't know anything about this.

609
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 3: I heard about that murdered, you know, months back, but

610
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 3: it had nothing to do with me. I don't even

611
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: you know this, It wasn't even thought of my head.

612
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: And man, I don't say that as as being in

613
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: a reflection on somebody being murdered on that, but it's

614
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: just that if someone gets killed and you don't know him,

615
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: it doesn't really impact you kind of an emotional Yeah, yeah,

616
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: it's just someone died. All that's messed up, you know.

617
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: So it wasn't even thought of my head. And so

618
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: he began to go on and say, well, he doesn't

619
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: tell me really much. He just says someone said this,

620
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: someone said that. And I'm arguing with him back and forth,

621
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: and I tell him, I said, look, you guys know

622
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: me my entire life. Yeah, I do stupid stuff, and

623
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: I kind of talked trash you guys and all that

624
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But I'm no killer. I didn't kill anybody.

625
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: And then he looks at me and he says, you

626
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: didn't think we're ever going to catch you on And

627
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: with that statement right there, I knew that he'd already

628
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: made up his mind. And he looks at me, so

629
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: I'm much charge you with a murder, and I don't know.

630
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: By this time, I'm crying. I'm telling him, look to you, anybody,

631
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 3: I'm telling you that right now. But there was nothing

632
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: I could. It didn't matter to him. He was charging me.

633
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: I called my dad out to that, and I tell

634
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: my dad, my dad is always going on. He's like,

635
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I said, Dad, I looked her, saying this,

636
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: because you have anything to do with it. I said, no, douab,

637
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: I'm telling you right now, I don't even know what

638
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: you're talking among. He says, okay, just look, just calm down,

639
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: you'll be all right, figure it out, It'll be all right.

640
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: And they carried me out the juvenile that tried me

641
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: a fresh grat murder threw me in the juvenile, and

642
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: so that's where it began for me. That was the

643
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: beginning bro this whole episode.

644
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: Can I ask you what was going through your mind

645
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: at that stage? It's hard to even comprehend being told

646
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: you're going to be charged with murder? Did you know

647
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: evenly think this will saw itself out, like I haven't

648
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: done it, so the justice system will kick in. What

649
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: was going through your mind at that point in time

650
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: when you were told you're going to be charged with murder?

651
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: At that moment, was shot and I already suffered the blow.

652
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: Wasn't a friend just a couple of days before. I

653
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: was already in this mindset where I was just feel

654
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: tired of living the life that I had been living,

655
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: and this was just another hit and it was like

656
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: I just couldn't at that moment deal with it. It

657
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: was such a shock that I was. It was weird.

658
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: I was almost like I just you know, I had

659
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: been crying and and and then I just kind of

660
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 3: just put my head down and it was just like

661
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: I couldn't mentally deal with it. And when I remember

662
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 3: them taking me to the juvenile hand cuts and everything,

663
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: I remember looking at Sunnyside and getting this dreadful feeling

664
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 3: as if that was going to be the last time

665
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: I seen it, and I just I was just stunned.

666
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: I remember, I was just I couldn't even speak, and

667
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: I remember getting to the juvenile and trying to trying

668
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: to process this, you know, and like I don't understand,

669
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: you know. And and then came a little bit after

670
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 3: that that gave me a little bit comfort. I was like, oh,

671
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: wouldn't even figuring it out. I really didn't do it,

672
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 3: So I don't I don't have much to worry about.

673
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: But then that only gives a certain monoic for maybe

674
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: a comfort that feeling for a moment. But then you're

675
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: stuck in that place and you realize that, look, it's

676
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 3: every day is another day that they don't figure it out.

677
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: And so it helped to a certain extent in small moments,

678
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 3: but it didn't really relieve any kind of It was

679
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 3: just a really shock and I just I couldn't understand.

680
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: I take it after the charge you were locked up

681
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: in you weren't biled, you were locked up in juvenile

682
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: detention center at that side.

683
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went to the Actamaal Juvenile and I remember

684
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: telling all the guards over there that I didn't do it.

685
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,239
Speaker 3: You know, you come in for a murder charge. They

686
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 3: look at you a certain way, especially when you're you're

687
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: as young as I am, and I remember a few

688
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 3: of them saying, I hope, I hope not. But I

689
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: had this feeling that I had to tell every single

690
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: person I can because I didn't do it. I had

691
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: to defend myself some kind of way. It didn't matter

692
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: if there were people that kids that were there with

693
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: me or if it was guards. I had to say

694
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: to every single person. But it was a look that

695
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: I got from a single person was the same thing, yeah, okay.

696
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that was heard that before.

697
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was a look I got for twenty

698
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 3: plus years until that documentary came out.

699
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: And we'll break it down and go through the whole process.

700
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: But I can't.

701
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: I can't honestly comprehend carrying that frustration of what you've

702
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: gone through, Like you think this can't be right. This

703
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: is a nightmare. When's it going to stop? Just going

704
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: through what you went through the process once you once

705
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: you've been charged, Just talk us through that, the cored appearances,

706
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: the trial, and what happened there, your experience throughout that process.

707
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: Well, I was when I was in a juvenile it

708
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: was the juveniles sealed with a bunch of young gang members,

709
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: and so it was battles all over the police fighting,

710
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: NonStop lockdowns and NonStop people hitting you up where you're from.

711
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: So it was just a.

712
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: An enclosed version of where I came from on the streets,

713
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: you know, and now they had to fight. They're trying

714
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: to house anybody together. So it was just like it was.

715
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: It was hard in that environment. And then I had

716
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: this heavy burden of knowing I'm in prison for something

717
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 3: I didn't do, and nobody cares, nobody believes me. It

718
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: doesn't matter to anybody else because it doesn't acceect them personally,

719
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: So I'm stuck. I'm alone in my own thoughts and

720
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: my own feelings. And then going to these hearings where

721
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: they're reading out these charges and the consequence of those charges,

722
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 3: just what I had, you know, to the anxiety I

723
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: have already had, you know, like you know, and and

724
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: there's a part of me that felt like screaming out.

725
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: I didn't do it, but the consequences of doing that

726
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 3: would only send me to a strip cell and they

727
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 3: put me locked down for you know, four forty eight hours.

728
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: And then I remember the prosecute attorney. It was was

729
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: a female prosecut turner names I think her last names,

730
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: oh well or something like that. She had a fire

731
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: about her, like as if I personally did something to her.

732
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 3: And the way she spoke about the murder, the way

733
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 3: she and maybe this is just you know, the way

734
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: prosecutunings are supposed to be towards the fact. I get that,

735
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: but this seemed real personal things that she would say,

736
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: so of the things are really mean spirited, you know,

737
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: towards me, and I felt that for her. And I

738
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: remember going back to the cell, I'm thinking, you know

739
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: that that was you know, that's that's a certain amount

740
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: of abuse that I'm I'm going to be facing face

741
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: from everybody. It's a jacket that you get. And I

742
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: didn't know how to deal with it at that moment.

743
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: I just kept thinking, why is she being so mean?

744
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 3: I get is she's a prospect attorney, but she's saying

745
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 3: some of the things she's staying are person take a

746
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: shock of my family, take a jot to me, saying

747
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: things that are not true. But I couldn't defend myself.

748
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: I couldn't get up and say anything. That's where it was.

749
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 3: And then it got progressively worse. My Lord tells me

750
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about being declined or sent to

751
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: an adult jail. I didn't know nothing about that. Nothing wrong.

752
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: And so he tells me the process. And so I remember,

753
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: I said, what do you I said, you mean they

754
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 3: can send me to prison. I mean they can send

755
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: me to the county jail. And he's like yeah. He goes,

756
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 3: and that's what they're trying do, and and he goes,

757
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: most likely that's where you're gonna go. And I said,

758
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 3: what do you mean most likely less one? He goes, well,

759
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: murder chargers, if you were sixteen, you would have already

760
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: been automatically sent to the county jail. I said, but

761
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 3: I'm fifteen. I'm a kid. He goes, Uh, it doesn't

762
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: move round. So we're gonna go to these hearings and

763
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: they're going to determine whether or not. And I was like,

764
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 3: and he goes, and he was blunt with me. There

765
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 3: was no he wasn't going to be around the bush.

766
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: And now what took place. He goes, if you go there,

767
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 3: he goes, you have to be very careful. I was like,

768
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: what do you mean be careful? He said, because well,

769
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 3: he said, you're real small and they're going to try

770
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 3: to do things to you. And like, what do you

771
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 3: mean do things? He says, well, they'll try to rape

772
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: you or beat you up or do all these kind

773
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: of things. So he filled my mind with all the

774
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: chorals of what jail would be like for kid like me.

775
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: That didn't help, you know, that made it worse. But

776
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: I get, you know, he wanted me to, you know,

777
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 3: see it the reality, and yeah, the reality of it,

778
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: and you know that the juvenile wasn't even better. They

779
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 3: had the scare, this scare straight uh thought process where

780
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: they wanted to show us how terrible the prisons were

781
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: and the way to kind of get us to stop

782
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: doing what we're doing on the streets. So what we

783
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: got every Friday was documentaries of all the horrors in prison,

784
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: of what happened to people juveniles, all that kind of stuff,

785
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 3: and they filled our mind with that on loop every Friday,

786
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 3: every Saturday or something Camember. They would give us that

787
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 3: And so this was my thought process, you know, whether

788
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: reality or not, That's what was in my head, Like,

789
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: oh God, I had to deal with that Helmemeking survivor

790
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: and I go to my heares and my declared harriets,

791
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: like COMMITI trial and everything I ever did bad in

792
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 3: my life, every fight I got into the fact that

793
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 3: I was a gang member, every incident I had with

794
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: the cops, every issue I had in school, every single

795
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: thing I ever did was brought up in there. And

796
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 3: they're not when you look at them, you know, they're

797
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: not big things, but when you combine them all together,

798
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 3: they can They can really paint a picture of the

799
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: pat that a person is going.

800
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: Sounds to me like they're painting the narrative that will

801
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: excuse the facts.

802
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: But look at this kid, he was destined to go

803
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: down that path. It sounds like that.

804
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: And you talk about the prosecutor and the passion that

805
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: she had the vitriol like it's almost like they've assumed

806
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: you're guilty. This is just a process. It feels like

807
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: to me, the way that you're telling your story is

808
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: that people have already convicted you and just accepted you've

809
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: convicted the crime. And here you are, as a kid

810
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: sitting in there thinking I haven't done this.

811
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's and like I said, I never I've

812
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: always been to a certain extent, I'm an introvert to

813
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: a certain extent. I've always I lived alone with my dad.

814
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 3: I don't like the center of attention. I like being

815
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: whenever I was in a group, I was always in

816
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: a corner of trying, like that's just the way that

817
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 3: was my personality. And here I am the center of attention.

818
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: And and the anxiety that had at that moment, not

819
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 3: knowing what was gonna happen, the prospect of going to

820
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: this jail, which bad things are probably gonna happen to

821
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: me that I probably couldn't control, And here I had

822
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: to sit in at court and this, this prosecuttorney just

823
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: would lay into me. And at the moment, when I

824
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 3: was a kid, I didn't think about, oh okay, I'm

825
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 3: arguing in school, but I get in a fight with

826
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: this kid, maybe they'll bring it up later on in

827
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: my life. I never thought about those moments. And here

828
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 3: are here I am. There's a trail of things that

829
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of. Wow, that makes me look horrible. And

830
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: and they're, like you said, they're painting this narrative, you know,

831
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: of who I was to convince the judge and you

832
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 3: need to sentence guy to prison whether he's guilty or answer,

833
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter because he's a threat society. And

834
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: that's what they were saying. Left un check all this

835
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. You'll big birth society. And I mean

836
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 3: the the detective was up there saying all kinds of

837
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 3: things and all this stuff, you know, and you know,

838
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: I just had to sit like this and just and

839
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 3: just take it. And my lawyer would get up and

840
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 3: argue this and rg that. But there's you know, whenever

841
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 3: whenever somebody is accusing you of something personally, or whenever

842
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: somebody attacking me, your first instinct is to get up

843
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 3: into finish. So, oh no, that ain't true. Well you

844
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 3: know that's not the person I am. But I couldn't

845
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 3: do that because the consequence of speaking out in court

846
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: would just be worse for me. I had to have

847
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: to kind of be there, send a submissive kind of

848
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: for me, because that's the way the American justice admitted,

849
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 3: you know, and you learn that right away, because if

850
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: you don't, then you know, you go directly to a

851
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: holding cell or you know that kind of stuff. You

852
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: don't want to be stuck in neglige when you know.

853
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: And so we're going through this process, and I remember

854
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: the judge, you know, when she made her decision to decline, man,

855
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: send me to the even though their expert, which was

856
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 3: a psychiatrist, said that he was against sending me to

857
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: the dog court. Too young, immature and my mind was informed,

858
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: right and all that kind of stuff, and I would benefit.

859
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: They were already talking as if I would go in

860
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: person anyways, Oh, he would benefit for you know, being

861
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: in jubail system because you know, he will learn this

862
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 3: and learn that. So they're speaking in terms as if

863
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 3: I'm guilty and I'm going to jail. It's not like, well,

864
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: if he's convicted, then this is none of that is well,

865
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: when he goes here, he goes there. They were already

866
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 3: you know, but he voted against send me to the

867
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: doll court. To mistay that a probation officer did the

868
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: same thing. The judge ruled against that and said and

869
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 3: in the way she said it too she told my

870
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 3: dad directly, your great father, you've been here for your

871
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: son and done all these things for you, and it's

872
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 3: obvious that you love your son. And she says to

873
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: him and front of me to she goes, but your

874
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 3: love can't save him. And and those words right there

875
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: cut me.

876
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: It's cruel.

877
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 3: He cut me. And I remember the words. We played

878
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: in my head, you know, for for over twenty years.

879
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: And she declined me. She decided to send me to

880
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 3: a dark cord. And then she said, she wrote in

881
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: the paper, said that I was a threat. I was

882
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: a threat to the public, and left unchecked, that I

883
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: would become worse. And I've already proven that the way

884
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: I was living already. And and I read that, I mean,

885
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: I got the PaperWorks. I got the paperwork, and I

886
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: was just it was It was so strange because in

887
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 3: that moment, you're already you know, in an emotional warnable position,

888
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: or you know, mentally the world seems to be caving in,

889
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: and these people like they kick you even more. It's

890
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 3: almost that they don't they don't see you as a child,

891
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 3: They see you as something else. They don't even talk

892
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: to you as if you're a child. Mhm. They speak

893
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: to you as if you know they're here's something other

894
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 3: than that, and and and and so I had to

895
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: deal with those words and I got sentilated to the

896
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 3: Akamaal County jail. I remember when I came back from

897
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: the hearing, they could be straight into the volieef and

898
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: then want me around the other juvenile because I was

899
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: considered an adult now and I couldn't be how the dreils.

900
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: And I remember coming back and I remember this this guard.

901
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: I had grown kind of close to her kind of

902
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 3: in the juvenile and she was like just a real

903
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: nice lady. And I would fold the clothes and all

904
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: this kind of stuff you know about and clean and

905
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff, and we just she was

906
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: just really nice to me. And I remember seeing her

907
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: just crying, you know. And I remember looking at her

908
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 3: when I was in the Holy Skuy. I could see

909
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 3: the booth and she was just crying right and looking

910
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: at me, just crying, and I could I really, I

911
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: wouldn't coudn't understand, you know, why she was crying. Well,

912
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: when I look back years on that, the reason she

913
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: was crying is because she understood the horrors that I

914
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 3: was going to face that place. She understood what awaited me,

915
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 3: and I was too young and ignorant to really understand,

916
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 3: even though I was scared and I couldn't read, and

917
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 3: and her tears were in its Russian, you know, restore me,

918
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 3: you know, and and like I said, she was such

919
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 3: a nice person to me. And I ended up getting

920
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 3: transferred to the doc to to the Akmo County Gern

921
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 3: I mean nothing, even nothing to me. I was sort

922
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 3: of smile.

923
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: Is this before you've been convicted? Is this when the

924
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: decisions made that you're going to get tried? So they're

925
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: virtually throwing you, throwing you to the wolves before you're

926
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: even even convicted.

927
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just throw you in there. There's no if

928
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 3: you're convicted. They say it's it's weird in American. In

929
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: America just they always tell that as being you united

930
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: to guilty. But the system is not based like that.

931
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 3: If that was the case, they.

932
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 2: Would be treating you like this, you know, they wouldn't

933
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: be putting.

934
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: No exactly, you know. And they tossed me straight in

935
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 3: and I went straight to solitary confinement.

936
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: How old were you? I was fifteen fifteen in a

937
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 2: mile adult prison in the Yeah, which is adult journ Yeah, yeah, okay,

938
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: talkers through that experience, like, hey, hey, you saved from

939
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: the time you go there.

940
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 3: Well, they took me straight to solve their employment. I

941
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: had never really experienced being in the seller or small

942
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: team for twenty twenty four hours a day. I never

943
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 3: experienced that. But they had to do that to protect

944
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 3: me and other juveniles because the adults will prey upon

945
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: us and the only way to do that is is

946
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: put us in solda, throwing straight into a cell string

947
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: too attain with other There was maybe two other three

948
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: other juveniles that were they're also charged as adults. And

949
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 3: there I sat and we had nothing to do. It

950
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 3: was just us, and you know, we just sat there

951
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 3: and play games and dealt with their emotions, you know,

952
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 3: and there was they were always fighting because you know, yeah,

953
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 3: that's what kids do it, I guess. But it's a

954
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: really dirty, grimy place because it's it's the whole basically

955
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 3: what it is. The food is horrible. You never leave

956
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 3: that area, and and everybody, the juveniles over there all

957
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: facing you know, thirty forty years in prison because they

958
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 3: got declined to so that the level of hope is

959
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: pretty low, you know, and my dad, though, would come

960
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: and see me everyday. Is anything. He was there, called

961
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 3: him every day and he wanted me to call them

962
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 3: every day. And that was my strength in that place,

963
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: was him. He always reminded me, you know, to be

964
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: strong and all that that stuff. But you know, I

965
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 3: adjusted try again and again. I was a little hope wild,

966
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: but they can't convict myself and I really didn't do

967
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: There's no way it's not gonna happen. Because growing up

968
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: in America, the day they they they get you into

969
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: believing that the American system of justice is this they

970
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: have all these praises when that's what school knows. It

971
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 3: tells you how greater our country is. And it doesn't

972
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 3: talk about the wrongful convictions, the racism or whatever. They

973
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 3: just this is America. It's great and these are the

974
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 3: reasons why they said, well I should love it, and

975
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: our justices was the best in the world. So you

976
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 3: grew up with that. Even though I was kind of

977
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 3: outside of that, you know, I still believed in it

978
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 3: because that's all I'm so. I was like, it's I'll

979
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: be all right, you know. And as we started tryal

980
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 3: I was they ad a bad my trial and basement

981
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: of the Acual County Jail, and it was really cold

982
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 3: down there, and they would take me in the morning

983
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 3: and put me in a holding sell by myself, and

984
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: I would sit there for an hour before I would

985
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 3: go home into court, and it's just an anxiety filled

986
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 3: hour where you just couldn't I didn't know what the thing,

987
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: couldn't I really understand what was going on. I couldn't

988
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: really comprehend the words they were saying. These are all

989
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 3: big words that I've never used in my life, not

990
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 3: to mention the legal you know, jargon, all that kind

991
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 3: of stuff, and understood now of that stuff. I probably

992
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: understood maybe twenty percent of what they were saying. So

993
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 3: I go in there and I remember what happened was

994
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 3: me and my dad kind of developed this, uh, this

995
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: little routine, so he put me out of the hold

996
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 3: in soul and it would go straight into the court

997
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: room and my dad would be sitting in there already wait.

998
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: I would sit down once they put me down in

999
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: the ballotfore lead, and then I would look back like

1000
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: this over my shoulder and he'd be sitting right back

1001
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 3: down in the public area and he would whisper to me,

1002
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 3: and I couldn't really hear him, but I could kind

1003
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 3: of read his lips and he would say he would

1004
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: tell me to stand it. And that had a habit

1005
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: because you always tell me shoulders up, you know, your

1006
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 3: chin up, and just that little those words right there

1007
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 3: would give me the strength to push through that moment.

1008
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: I think if he had not been there at least

1009
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 3: one day, probably would have because he was my my

1010
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 3: strength in that moment.

1011
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: It sands to me the way you describe him and

1012
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: the support that he was. You said strength, that it's

1013
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: a rock that held you together by the sands of it.

1014
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

1015
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: I mean he.

1016
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 3: Was there with me. You know, he didn't he let

1017
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: him and that never he never let me feel like

1018
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: I was alone, and he always kind of gave me strength,

1019
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: words of strength, and and just that that moment right

1020
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 3: there was was I know he could see it. He

1021
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 3: can see you know, my dad, he could see what

1022
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: it was doing to me. And I think that heat

1023
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 3: As as a father, you know, I mean, you have

1024
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 3: to and the best way you can. I mean, how

1025
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 3: do you when I think you know what he went through,

1026
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 3: how to take about you as a father protect your

1027
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: son in that kind of moment or uplist him and

1028
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 3: I let him, you know, start taking you know, things

1029
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, or you know, kind of lose himself. And

1030
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 3: I remember going through that process and just always every

1031
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 3: morning him being there, right there, and I felt like, Okay,

1032
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: I can I can deal what's going to go on today.

1033
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: How long did the trial runfull?

1034
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 3: I think it went from I think the sixth of

1035
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 3: the nineteenth. I was convicted on the nineteenth. I think

1036
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 3: could begun on December sixth and December sixth, and then

1037
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: ended on the ninet December nineteenth.

1038
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're looking at the almost two weeks.

1039
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, but don't count the weekends because we didn't put

1040
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 3: a court on the weekends. And try was was brutal

1041
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: for me because it was it was it was just

1042
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 3: witnesses getting up there and then and saying things that

1043
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 3: were true that I knew were true, and I couldn't

1044
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: understand why they were saying them. And I remember thinking

1045
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: when Dificans Grocery up there, I'll feel I remember thinking, Okay,

1046
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: now she got good views, she's gonna see it wasn't me.

1047
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 3: And when she said no, that's same. I'll never forget

1048
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 3: his face and I was just shocked. I've never seen

1049
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 3: this girl before in my life, you know, how could

1050
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: she not see this?

1051
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: You know?

1052
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: And I remember I looked right at her, you know,

1053
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 3: and and and she would give me this really ugly

1054
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: dirty looks, and I was like, well, she's gonna she's

1055
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 3: gonna realize that. And she did, you know, she said

1056
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: that's him. I'll never forget his facing. And then for

1057
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 3: the informer to get up there, and and you know,

1058
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 3: said that I said this, and which I knew never happened.

1059
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: It never happened, and I just I just I remember

1060
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 3: going back to the to the cell. I just thinking

1061
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: that I was living in some kind of bizarre world

1062
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 3: that you know. It was like some kind of nightmare

1063
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 3: that I just didn't wake up from because nothing seemed

1064
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 3: to be going right. It all seemed to be going

1065
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 3: to point in one direction. I didn't want to think

1066
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: about what that direction was. And I remember I was

1067
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 3: having bad dreams and my dad had come to see me,

1068
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 3: and this was right before they had been convicted, and

1069
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 3: where I think we were waiting for the jury too.

1070
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 3: They were deliberating to think or something. And I remember

1071
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 3: telling my dad, I have bad dreams, you know that

1072
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 3: I was convicted, and he told me, no, I don't don't,

1073
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: don't talk like that. It's all right. Believe me, they're

1074
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 3: going to see it. It's all right. He didn't do it.

1075
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: Just focus on that. Okay. I'm scared that he was crying.

1076
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: It was tone. It was no I he said no,

1077
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 3: he wouldn't hear it. So I remember going in there,

1078
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: and I remember the jury coming in and that made

1079
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 3: a decision and my little looks at me and says,

1080
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 3: it's really bad. It's pretty bad. And I said, what

1081
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 3: do you mean it's back. He goes that, Jerry's not

1082
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 3: looking at you. I said, what do you mean? They're

1083
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: not looking at me? And I loaked up and they

1084
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: all wouldn't stare me, and they I look like they're

1085
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 3: doing like this, and I really didn't understand what that man.

1086
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 3: But I remember looking at him. He said it doesn't

1087
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 3: look good. And then I had to stand up and

1088
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: they read it, you know, get it to the first murdering.

1089
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: And I remember thinking at that moment there was a

1090
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 3: feeling that just it's almost like when you almost like

1091
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: we almost said a fall something, or like when you're

1092
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 3: driving and almost sits and me like, oh, it's that

1093
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 3: kind of just rush of feeling and everything kind of

1094
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 3: just falls out of you. And I just sat there

1095
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking, of course, because my mind had

1096
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 3: already put in my head, looked, you've already suffered all

1097
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 3: this in their life, what's another blow. Of course, it

1098
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 3: went to that. It went to like, yeah, yeah, of

1099
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 3: course is it's like every single freaking thing. Yeah, but

1100
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 3: it was. It was a shock. And I remember hearing

1101
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 3: my sister screaming in the background, and I even looked

1102
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: back and I kind of just was a little bit shocked.

1103
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 3: And this other strange thing about I don't know if

1104
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 3: they do it in every court room, but seven or

1105
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: eight of the biggest guards I ever seen in my life,

1106
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: but at least over six feet at least that's what

1107
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 3: they seem like, come up and just rush throom, turn

1108
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 3: around the handcuff me. I'm already in the channel, you know.

1109
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: I don't understand. But it was a show, that's what

1110
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: they were doing. It was part of this little terrible

1111
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 3: theory that was going on, and they wanted to show

1112
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 3: I guess I was tiny. It was five foot in

1113
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 3: like one hundred and ten.

1114
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: Powers making a statement your as now and this is.

1115
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and they towered over me. It was like,

1116
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 3: you know, I was you know, I looked like it

1117
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 3: was just horrible. So they kind of roughed me out

1118
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: and take me on. I'm taking in my head, does

1119
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: it make sense? They take me all the way to

1120
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 3: there are there's they're called rubber rooms, or they're like

1121
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 3: panic rooms or something like that. They don't have nothing

1122
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 3: but a hole in there in the ground. Why are

1123
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 3: you guys taking me here? They said, you're gonna be

1124
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 3: into you. Calm down. I said, calm down, I'm not

1125
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: even doing nothing, and they just let me there. They

1126
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 3: left me there for eight hours in that room, and

1127
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 3: I just walked and all I kept saying is it

1128
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 3: didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't happen, over and

1129
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 3: over and over and over.

1130
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: So I thought myself, line didn't happen, as in that

1131
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: you it didn't happen. I wasn't just convicted of a murder.

1132
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: I didn't do Is that okay? I look the way

1133
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: you describe it, I can understand all these emotions going

1134
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: through through your head, and up until that word guilty

1135
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: comes out, you'd be thinking, okay, this has been chaos.

1136
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: But just it'll be right. It'll be right.

1137
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: Justice will kick through and people see it for what

1138
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: it is. The reaction from your father and all the

1139
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: way through and your sister, I would imagine the type

1140
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: of person that you are that would have weighed heavily

1141
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: on you as well, seeing your your family, the people

1142
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: love you and support you, how it impacted on you

1143
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: as well.

1144
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: Well, That that wasn't even the worse of it, because

1145
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 3: that was that kind of corporate really fast, So a

1146
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 3: little tiny bit of it. And there wasn't visity for

1147
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 3: two days, and I remember having to go back to

1148
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 3: sell and that was just running through my mind and

1149
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 3: I was, you know, I was angry. I was anger

1150
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: with God, I was angry with everything. And I couldn't

1151
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 3: really but I just kept saying it over and over.

1152
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 3: It didn't happen, didn't happen. So my dad is able

1153
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 3: to come see me two days later. He couldn't see you,

1154
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 3: and I can get him on some kind of blackout

1155
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 3: where I couldn't talk on the phone or something because

1156
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 3: of the car. I can't remember, but that was the

1157
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 3: first time we were able to talk. So they called

1158
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: me to visit us and I walked into the it's

1159
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 3: just a cel and like there's a big window and

1160
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 3: anything just typical with the point and I see my

1161
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 3: dad and my dad did it's just crying. I mean

1162
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: I had never seen him like that before. I mean,

1163
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 3: he can't even speak. My dad has always been my rock,

1164
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 3: he's been my hero, my superman, He's always been kind

1165
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: of This man is still in my life. I think

1166
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 3: I've only seen him maybe cry me one other time,

1167
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 3: and that was when my when he's seen me in

1168
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 3: my in the back of a con car when my

1169
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 3: mother had given me up. I've never seen him cry

1170
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 3: out of him. And here he was. He couldn't speak,

1171
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 3: and yeah, he was kept saying know me, know me,

1172
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 3: and me means son in Spanish, so he's saying no, son, no, son, no,

1173
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 3: and he can't can't even look at me. He came

1174
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: and he just went on and ten to fifteen minutes

1175
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: of me, and I remember at that moment thinking all

1176
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: the strength that he had given me in my entire life,

1177
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 3: all those moments that he had looked at me up

1178
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 3: and saved me. He needed me to be there for him,

1179
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 3: and at that moment, the you know that it had

1180
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 3: switched and I had to be strong for him. And

1181
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 3: I remember telling him. I looked at him and I

1182
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 3: said it, it's all right, I'll survive. It's all right there,

1183
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 3: I will survive. And I kind of calm tone and

1184
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 3: that I had to say that for maybe almost ten minutes,

1185
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 3: and you finally slowly came down, slowly, slowly, and then

1186
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 3: he couldn't really talk. He was just, you know, just

1187
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: got his blank stare in his eye. I just kept

1188
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 3: saying it over, I'll survive, and then he calmed down,

1189
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 3: and then the visit was over. It was only an

1190
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: hour ago. And that's when I went back to the

1191
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 3: room and I broke down, because that was the moment

1192
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: work not only became real to me, but seeing him

1193
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 3: that way my rock. And you know, the man is

1194
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 3: still in my life. You know, he he was mortal

1195
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 3: at that moment, you know, he was no longer.

1196
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine. But it says a lot about

1197
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: your character that you could see that you had to

1198
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: be the strength for your father in that situation. We

1199
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: might take a break now, and when we get back

1200
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: for part two, we're going to talk about your time

1201
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: in prison, how you survive prison, and then we're going

1202
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: to dissect the case against you and the failings of

1203
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: the case that I said to you upfront form a

1204
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: homicide detective, I'm mortified by some of the things that

1205
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 1: went down in your trial and that slipped through the

1206
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: system and you had your life stolen away from you.

1207
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: It seems so unfair, But.

1208
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how you carry. You carry the trauma, Robert,

1209
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: better than I could say again, credit to you. Let's

1210
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 1: have a break and when we come back, we'll delve

1211
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: into that part your time in jail, the case against

1212
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: you will break that down and then you fight for freedom.

1213
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: And what you're doing with yourself now.

1214
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 3: Yours is good. Good cheers in Na