1 00:00:03,430 --> 00:00:06,090 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,650 --> 00:00:09,889 Sean Aylmer: The life insurance sector copped a hammering during the Royal 3 00:00:09,890 --> 00:00:14,430 Sean Aylmer: Commission into banking. And honestly, rightly so. AMP admitted to 4 00:00:14,430 --> 00:00:18,009 Sean Aylmer: collecting life insurance premiums from dead customers, while audio was 5 00:00:18,010 --> 00:00:20,650 Sean Aylmer: played of another company essentially bullying a young man and 6 00:00:20,650 --> 00:00:24,020 Sean Aylmer: with down syndrome into buying a policy. Since then though, 7 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:26,759 Sean Aylmer: there's been a major shift in the sector. The big 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,610 Sean Aylmer: four banks, as well as AMP, have all sold off their 9 00:00:29,610 --> 00:00:32,790 Sean Aylmer: insurance divisions, but there was a huge amount of reputational 10 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:35,880 Sean Aylmer: damage done to the broader industry. Today, I wanted to 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,360 Sean Aylmer: get a feel for how the sector is recovering with 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,830 Sean Aylmer: an insurer that has built a successful business by picking 13 00:00:40,909 --> 00:00:44,940 Sean Aylmer: and choosing professions it'll insure, and then sharing the profits 14 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:48,680 Sean Aylmer: with those members. Michael Pillemer is the Chief Executive of 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,510 Sean Aylmer: PPS Mutual and is my guest today. Michael, welcome to 16 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:52,140 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 17 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:54,050 Michael Pillemer: Thanks, Sean. Great to be with you. 18 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,240 Sean Aylmer: So how much damage was done to the broader sector 19 00:00:57,500 --> 00:00:58,730 Sean Aylmer: from the Royal Commission? 20 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,600 Michael Pillemer: Sean, the damage to the sector has been huge. Who 21 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,110 Michael Pillemer: would've thought that AMP who was the bastion of the 22 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:13,220 Michael Pillemer: life insurance industry would ever sell its life insurance operations 23 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:19,009 Michael Pillemer: and put its book into runoff? Ironically, while Commissioner Hayne 24 00:01:19,010 --> 00:01:23,300 Michael Pillemer: stopped short of forcing the banks to divest their life 25 00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:28,369 Michael Pillemer: insurance and financial advice operations, this has happened anyway due 26 00:01:28,370 --> 00:01:32,480 Michael Pillemer: to the reputational fallout. As you mentioned, ASIC have also 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,410 Michael Pillemer: come down very hard on the sale of direct life insurance, 28 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:42,229 Michael Pillemer: particularly in relation to unsolicited cold calls. And look, I 29 00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:44,420 Michael Pillemer: think this was always a bit of a time bomb 30 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:49,580 Michael Pillemer: waiting to go off. Unfortunately, this has distracted from the 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:56,560 Michael Pillemer: invaluable support that the sector provides both individuals and the community. 32 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:03,640 Michael Pillemer: Every year about $ 12 billion is paid out in claims to 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,680 Michael Pillemer: over 100,000 Australians. And having been in the industry for 34 00:02:08,889 --> 00:02:12,840 Michael Pillemer: over 35 years now, I've seen the difference that this 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,540 Michael Pillemer: can make to people's lives. 36 00:02:14,750 --> 00:02:17,429 Sean Aylmer: So, it's really worthwhile focusing on this just a little bit, 37 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:20,190 Sean Aylmer: and let's take life insurance to begin with before we 38 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:24,410 Sean Aylmer: get into more of what you do. Life insurance itself 39 00:02:24,410 --> 00:02:27,780 Sean Aylmer: has got such a bad reputation and the man in the cardigan selling you 40 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:30,870 Sean Aylmer: the policy has, I sort of grew up with that kind 41 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:34,470 Sean Aylmer: of image, but at the end of the day, life insurance, 42 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:37,210 Sean Aylmer: and most of us actually get it through our superannuation anyway, 43 00:02:37,460 --> 00:02:39,360 Sean Aylmer: is a really important part of the economy. 44 00:02:39,810 --> 00:02:43,240 Michael Pillemer: Yeah, it is very much so. And you mentioned superannuation. 45 00:02:43,260 --> 00:02:45,850 Michael Pillemer: A lot of people think they've got enough insurance in 46 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:49,410 Michael Pillemer: their super fund, but these are really designed as group benefits. 47 00:02:49,630 --> 00:02:53,490 Michael Pillemer: It's not tailored to the individual's needs. And most of 48 00:02:53,490 --> 00:02:57,700 Michael Pillemer: the time, insurance in one super fund is that both the quality 49 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,280 Michael Pillemer: and the amount of the cover is inadequate. But insurance 50 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,870 Michael Pillemer: plays a hugely important role in the community, absolutely. And 51 00:03:05,870 --> 00:03:09,169 Michael Pillemer: it also plays an important role in individual's lives and 52 00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:11,989 Michael Pillemer: protecting their lifestyles and protecting their dignity. 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,989 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. When I think about why I have life insurance, 54 00:03:14,990 --> 00:03:16,929 Sean Aylmer: if something happens to me, what happens to the mortgage? 55 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,090 Sean Aylmer: What happens to my partner? What happens to my children? 56 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,370 Sean Aylmer: At least if something happens to me, financially they don't have 57 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:25,360 Sean Aylmer: to worry about those things. And I think there's an 58 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,049 Sean Aylmer: enormous benefit, not just financial, but peace of mind as well. 59 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,389 Michael Pillemer: Yeah. And you know, most people don't realise that your ability 60 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:37,020 Michael Pillemer: to earn an income is your most valuable asset. For 61 00:03:37,020 --> 00:03:40,070 Michael Pillemer: most people, if you think about a young professional for example, 62 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,420 Michael Pillemer: over their lifetime, they'll earn several million dollars, if not 63 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,440 Michael Pillemer: tens of millions of dollars. And yet a lot of 64 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,770 Michael Pillemer: people will insure their home and their car, but they won't 65 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:53,020 Michael Pillemer: insure their income in the event of sickness or injury. 66 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:55,670 Sean Aylmer: So I'm going to ask a slightly embarrassing question here, 67 00:03:55,670 --> 00:03:58,810 Sean Aylmer: Michael, when I think of income protection insurance, I do 68 00:03:58,810 --> 00:04:01,260 Sean Aylmer: think of that in the life insurance bucket. Should I 69 00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:03,390 Sean Aylmer: actually be thinking of that in the general insurance bucket? 70 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,930 Michael Pillemer: No, no, no. So, income protection would most definitely fall in the 71 00:04:06,930 --> 00:04:11,680 Michael Pillemer: life insurance bucket, as would life insurance or death insurance, 72 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:16,810 Michael Pillemer: total and permanent disability insurance, and also trauma insurance. 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,280 Sean Aylmer: So, your business, you insure medical, commercial, legal and industrial 74 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:22,539 Sean Aylmer: professionals. Is that right? 75 00:04:22,730 --> 00:04:23,500 Michael Pillemer: That's correct. 76 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,900 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So why focus on those areas? 77 00:04:26,110 --> 00:04:28,800 Michael Pillemer: Yeah, it's a great question. I think the reason is 78 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,930 Michael Pillemer: partly historical. PPS Mutual is based on the highly successful 79 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,980 Michael Pillemer: PPS business that originated in South Africa. It's based on 80 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:41,060 Michael Pillemer: that model. Just to be clear, PPS Mutual is an 81 00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:45,669 Michael Pillemer: Australian entity that's owned by its Australian members in the 82 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:49,440 Michael Pillemer: same way that PPS South Africa is owned by its South 83 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,290 Michael Pillemer: African members. PPS was started during the Second World War 84 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:59,630 Michael Pillemer: by eight dentists who recognised that their most valuable asset was 85 00:04:59,630 --> 00:05:02,250 Michael Pillemer: their ability to earn an income, but they couldn't get 86 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:06,029 Michael Pillemer: adequate protection at that point in time. And so what 87 00:05:06,029 --> 00:05:08,870 Michael Pillemer: they did is they decided to self- insure. They then 88 00:05:08,870 --> 00:05:12,180 Michael Pillemer: started getting approached by some other dentists. Then the doctors 89 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:14,350 Michael Pillemer: approached them and said, can we be a part of this? 90 00:05:14,750 --> 00:05:19,480 Michael Pillemer: Then the lawyers, then the accountants, the engineers, and so on. Today, 91 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:25,580 Michael Pillemer: PPS Mutual is the largest multidisciplinary group of professionals in 92 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:30,050 Michael Pillemer: the world. And it's also the largest mutual company in 93 00:05:30,050 --> 00:05:32,560 Michael Pillemer: South Africa. So the way that the model works is 94 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,750 Michael Pillemer: that to become a member of PPS, you need to 95 00:05:35,750 --> 00:05:41,440 Michael Pillemer: meet certain eligibility requirements. Once you meet those eligibility requirements, 96 00:05:41,690 --> 00:05:44,359 Michael Pillemer: that then opens up the gateway for you to be 97 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,150 Michael Pillemer: able to obtain product from the company. The key difference 98 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:52,099 Michael Pillemer: between the PPS model and for example, other insurance companies 99 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:54,400 Michael Pillemer: in the market, is that when it comes to the 100 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,539 Michael Pillemer: end of the financial year, because PPS is a mutual, 101 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:02,160 Michael Pillemer: and a mutual is owned by its members, the members 102 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,930 Michael Pillemer: get to share in the profit. So at the end 103 00:06:04,930 --> 00:06:08,220 Michael Pillemer: of each financial year, with other insurers in the market, 104 00:06:08,270 --> 00:06:14,150 Michael Pillemer: the profit would be allocated to external shareholders. With PPS, 105 00:06:14,580 --> 00:06:20,350 Michael Pillemer: the profit gets allocated to the policy holders, or the members. 106 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:24,350 Michael Pillemer: And this is a key difference. Just to go back to 107 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:28,450 Michael Pillemer: your question about the nature of why professionals, one of 108 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:31,279 Michael Pillemer: the reasons why the model is so successful is because 109 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,839 Michael Pillemer: professionals make a great member base for life insurance. They 110 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,960 Michael Pillemer: understand the need for insurance. They generally have a lower 111 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,670 Michael Pillemer: risk profile. They have more stable and higher incomes, and 112 00:06:42,970 --> 00:06:47,849 Michael Pillemer: we can also design products specifically for them. Importantly, they 113 00:06:47,850 --> 00:06:51,730 Michael Pillemer: also understand that work is wellness. So the more quickly 114 00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:54,970 Michael Pillemer: they get back to work, the more quickly they're going 115 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:58,610 Michael Pillemer: to get better. So all of this results in greater 116 00:06:58,610 --> 00:07:03,140 Michael Pillemer: profits for the insurer. So this results in lower lapse rates. 117 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,250 Michael Pillemer: Customers stick around for longer. Because if you think about it, if 118 00:07:07,250 --> 00:07:10,240 Michael Pillemer: you remember and you feel that you've got a product 119 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,110 Michael Pillemer: that's as good as anything else that exists in the market, 120 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,890 Michael Pillemer: but instead of the profits going to external shareholders, the 121 00:07:17,890 --> 00:07:20,610 Michael Pillemer: profits are coming back to you, why would you go 122 00:07:20,610 --> 00:07:24,410 Michael Pillemer: anywhere else? And so PPS Mutual's lapse rates are 3%. 123 00:07:25,310 --> 00:07:29,410 Michael Pillemer: Whereas the industry average is 13%. And your low lapse 124 00:07:29,410 --> 00:07:33,680 Michael Pillemer: rates have a huge impact on your profitability. And so 125 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,590 Michael Pillemer: this becomes a self- reinforcing cycle of success. 126 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,030 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Michael, we'll be back in a minute. 127 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,250 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Michael Pillemer, Chief Executive of 128 00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:51,790 Sean Aylmer: PPS Mutual. There used to be lots of mutuals around, 129 00:07:51,850 --> 00:07:55,270 Sean Aylmer: and then they were acquired or shifted. And so we've 130 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:58,750 Sean Aylmer: been through the phase of banks and other big financial 131 00:07:58,750 --> 00:08:03,510 Sean Aylmer: service organisations like for- profit listed organisations running life insurance businesses. 132 00:08:04,180 --> 00:08:06,960 Sean Aylmer: Is it likely that we are going to shift back 133 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,620 Sean Aylmer: towards more of a mutual structure such as PPS is? You 134 00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:14,270 Sean Aylmer: guys are obviously very successful and your members are happy. 135 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:17,400 Sean Aylmer: Do you think you will see more mutuals emerging again, or 136 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:18,960 Sean Aylmer: has that boat passed by? 137 00:08:19,750 --> 00:08:23,460 Michael Pillemer: It's interesting. All of the large life insurers in Australia used 138 00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:27,070 Michael Pillemer: to be mutuals. And I remember this really well because 139 00:08:27,070 --> 00:08:30,660 Michael Pillemer: I arrived in Australia in the late eighties and that 140 00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:33,270 Michael Pillemer: was the case at that point in time. And then 141 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:37,910 Michael Pillemer: there was this race for growth between AMP and National Mutual. 142 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:40,069 Michael Pillemer: And it was all about who could be the biggest. 143 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,360 Michael Pillemer: Not who could be the best, who could be the biggest. 144 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,729 Michael Pillemer: And they started writing a lot of capital guaranteed business. 145 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:51,449 Michael Pillemer: They depleted their reserves. And as a result, they decided 146 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:53,809 Michael Pillemer: to go to the market to raise more capital. It was 147 00:08:53,809 --> 00:08:56,290 Michael Pillemer: a similar story for all the mutuals in the market 148 00:08:56,290 --> 00:08:59,570 Michael Pillemer: at that point in time. And in the process in 149 00:08:59,570 --> 00:09:03,270 Michael Pillemer: raising the capital from the markets they de- mutualised, which 150 00:09:03,270 --> 00:09:07,010 Michael Pillemer: means that the result is today, PPS Mutual is the 151 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,530 Michael Pillemer: only mutual in the retail advised insurance space. 152 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:11,099 Sean Aylmer: Is that right? 153 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:13,990 Michael Pillemer: Yep. With a profit share for members. So it's quite 154 00:09:13,990 --> 00:09:17,870 Michael Pillemer: a unique situation. What a lot of people don't realise 155 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:20,140 Michael Pillemer: who have grown up in Australia over the last 20 156 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:23,020 Michael Pillemer: years or so, because there haven't been any mutuals. A 157 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:26,520 Michael Pillemer: lot of people don't realise that actually, mutuals are very 158 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,429 Michael Pillemer: big worldwide and still account for 23% of the global life 159 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:35,240 Michael Pillemer: insurance market. In fact, the 10 years following the GFC, 160 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:43,500 Michael Pillemer: mutual life companies performed really strongly growing at 23%, compared 161 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:49,010 Michael Pillemer: to 7% for the total life insurance industry. So I 162 00:09:49,010 --> 00:09:52,890 Michael Pillemer: believe that there is an opportunity for more mutuals in the 163 00:09:52,890 --> 00:09:56,610 Michael Pillemer: Australian market. But it's an interesting one because, how do 164 00:09:56,610 --> 00:09:59,830 Michael Pillemer: you set up a mutual today? You require a lot 165 00:09:59,830 --> 00:10:02,660 Michael Pillemer: of capital. It's a different situation to the one that 166 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:06,170 Michael Pillemer: I described with the 8 dentists. You really need a 167 00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:08,679 Michael Pillemer: large mutual to come in and fund the business. 168 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,790 Sean Aylmer: So tell me, has COVID made much of a difference, 169 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:14,979 Sean Aylmer: not just to mutuals, but to the life insurance and 170 00:10:14,980 --> 00:10:19,300 Sean Aylmer: general insurance sector? Have people thought more about things because of 171 00:10:19,530 --> 00:10:26,300 Sean Aylmer: COVID? Have they dropped off because of financial reasons? I'm just interested in the impact of COVID. 172 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:30,080 Michael Pillemer: Yeah, no, it is an interesting one, Sean. Look, I think people undoubtedly are a lot 173 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,860 Michael Pillemer: more conscious about life insurance with COVID. I think that's 174 00:10:34,860 --> 00:10:38,190 Michael Pillemer: a good thing. It's interesting, people don't like to think 175 00:10:38,190 --> 00:10:41,670 Michael Pillemer: about their own mortality or their own morbidity. 176 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,470 Sean Aylmer: Michael, I'm not dying. I don't know whether you realise that, but I'm not. 177 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:48,310 Michael Pillemer: Well, you know, Woody Allen said, "I don't want to achieve immortality 178 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:50,990 Michael Pillemer: through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying." 179 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:53,601 Sean Aylmer: That's a fair call. 180 00:10:53,601 --> 00:10:58,040 Michael Pillemer: And because people don't like to think about their own 181 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,559 Michael Pillemer: mortality, they push it into their subconscious. And I think 182 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,210 Michael Pillemer: that's one of the reasons why people aren't proactive about 183 00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:09,860 Michael Pillemer: taking out insurance. And I've seen this. Taking out appropriate 184 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:14,320 Michael Pillemer: life insurance can be the most important financial decision an 185 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,170 Michael Pillemer: individual ever makes. 186 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,559 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Now look, PPS Mutual, your channel to market is 187 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,111 Sean Aylmer: via financial planners. Is it? 188 00:11:20,111 --> 00:11:20,599 Michael Pillemer: It is. 189 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:22,960 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So if I was a dentist or a doctor, 190 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,219 Sean Aylmer: I can't necessarily just ring you. I need to go 191 00:11:25,220 --> 00:11:26,240 Sean Aylmer: via a financial planner. 192 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,380 Michael Pillemer: Yes. You could certainly ring and we could recommend an 193 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:33,160 Michael Pillemer: advisor if you never had one, but we believe that 194 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,390 Michael Pillemer: professionals require professional advice and counsel, so we work through 195 00:11:38,390 --> 00:11:41,320 Michael Pillemer: financial planners. I think life insurance is a lot more 196 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,120 Michael Pillemer: complex than people realise. And an advisor can help you 197 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,920 Michael Pillemer: determine how much insurance you need in the first place. 198 00:11:48,270 --> 00:11:50,840 Michael Pillemer: They can help you with the structuring. Do you fund 199 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,410 Michael Pillemer: through superannuation or not? Do you link benefits? Is it 200 00:11:54,410 --> 00:11:58,340 Michael Pillemer: stepped or level premiums? What benefit period do you have? 201 00:11:58,610 --> 00:12:02,150 Michael Pillemer: What options matter the most to you? For example, such 202 00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:05,990 Michael Pillemer: as claims indexation. So an advisor can help you with that. 203 00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:08,069 Michael Pillemer: And on top of that, they can help you get 204 00:12:08,070 --> 00:12:13,160 Michael Pillemer: through the underwriting process, review your insurance on an ongoing basis. 205 00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:16,790 Michael Pillemer: And very importantly, help when it comes to claim time. 206 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:21,710 Michael Pillemer: So the APRA (Australian Prudential Regulation Authority) statistics show that the proportion of claims 207 00:12:21,710 --> 00:12:26,559 Michael Pillemer: paid for individual covers are far higher, much higher, where 208 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,300 Michael Pillemer: an advisor is involved. 209 00:12:29,330 --> 00:12:33,179 Sean Aylmer: I'm a huge fan of financial planners. I think everyone should have one. Michael, 210 00:12:33,179 --> 00:12:35,010 Sean Aylmer: thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 211 00:12:35,370 --> 00:12:37,250 Michael Pillemer: That's an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Sean. 212 00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:41,359 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Pillemer, CEO of PPS Mutual. This is a 213 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,670 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed daily interview. Join me every morning for 214 00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:46,030 Sean Aylmer: the full Fear and Greed podcast with all the business 215 00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:48,920 Sean Aylmer: news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.