1 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:07,560 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. We've 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,710 Sean Aylmer: spoken before about Dyson, the company that began with one 3 00:00:10,710 --> 00:00:13,860 Sean Aylmer: man and a vacuum cleaner and has become a leader 4 00:00:13,860 --> 00:00:16,560 Sean Aylmer: in innovation. Today, I wanted to talk to one of 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,680 Sean Aylmer: those people who are actually hands- on during the innovation 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,610 Sean Aylmer: process. James Shale is the Service Manager for Australia and 7 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:27,090 Sean Aylmer: New Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is 8 00:00:27,090 --> 00:00:29,970 Sean Aylmer: a supporter of this podcast. James, welcome to Fear and Greed. 9 00:00:30,510 --> 00:00:31,500 James Shale: Thanks very much for having me. 10 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:35,850 Sean Aylmer: What's it like to be an engineer at Dyson, particularly 11 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:37,890 Sean Aylmer: because expectations are so high? 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,060 James Shale: It's very exciting. I mean, I think the UK has 13 00:00:42,060 --> 00:00:46,050 James Shale: a really strong background for engineering, but certainly for a 14 00:00:46,050 --> 00:00:49,110 James Shale: lot of people that studied with me in my university, 15 00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:52,650 James Shale: it was a really aspirational company to work for. But the 16 00:00:52,650 --> 00:00:55,020 James Shale: word I would choose to use would be unique. I 17 00:00:55,020 --> 00:00:59,190 James Shale: think by having a singular owner that is so passionate 18 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:03,540 James Shale: about engineering, design, and development, it creates this unique environment 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,080 James Shale: in which engineers can play, would be how I'd describe it. 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,029 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What sort of engineer are you? 21 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:13,440 James Shale: I studied mechanical engineering and majored in design. 22 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:18,060 Sean Aylmer: Okay. You can play, as an engineer, you can play. 23 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:23,100 Sean Aylmer: That must be a very different culture than most engineering- 24 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:24,450 Sean Aylmer: obsessed organizations. 25 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,040 James Shale: Absolutely. I think in most organizations, there's obviously an engineering 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,650 James Shale: department that's given some wiggle room to innovate and play with 27 00:01:34,650 --> 00:01:39,450 James Shale: technology. But at Dyson, you've got 14, 000 technical individuals 28 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:44,490 James Shale: ranging from microbiologists to scientists, to mechanical engineers to designers, 29 00:01:45,030 --> 00:01:46,980 James Shale: and we're not just looking to kind of push a 30 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:50,520 James Shale: product through the pipeline. You have people working on technologies 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,650 James Shale: that are maybe 20 years in advance of the market. 32 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,930 James Shale: You have people doing scientific experiments and trying to create 33 00:01:57,930 --> 00:02:02,520 James Shale: new processes or just discover new ways of doing things. 34 00:02:02,730 --> 00:02:05,580 James Shale: And then obviously, as you go further down the engineering 35 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,489 James Shale: pipeline, you've got people who are actually trying to integrate 36 00:02:08,490 --> 00:02:10,589 James Shale: that into a product and get that product to market. 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,860 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I mean, it sounds like you've got a lot 38 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:16,950 Sean Aylmer: of freedom. I mean, there must be some constraints, obviously, 39 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:18,989 Sean Aylmer: but it sounds like you've got a fair bit of freedom. 40 00:02:19,650 --> 00:02:22,440 James Shale: Yeah, well, I think the ethos of the company is 41 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,880 James Shale: to really invest in engineering. It's a passion. I mean, 42 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,000 James Shale: we even have a integrated university at our UK site, 43 00:02:30,389 --> 00:02:32,910 James Shale: and you look at things beyond the company, that you've 44 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:36,180 James Shale: got the James Dyson Award, which basically goes around the 45 00:02:36,180 --> 00:02:39,600 James Shale: world trying to encourage people to innovate and then rewards 46 00:02:39,810 --> 00:02:43,919 James Shale: and helps really fantastic ideas from around the world. So that 47 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,010 James Shale: very much is the culture that we have. Obviously, there 48 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:49,590 James Shale: is a business to run as well, but I think 49 00:02:49,889 --> 00:02:53,639 James Shale: that's possibly what differentiates it from being an engineering employee 50 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,590 James Shale: compared to other similar companies. 51 00:02:56,010 --> 00:02:58,380 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, how does the design process actually work? Does 52 00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:02,340 Sean Aylmer: it start with market research? For example, we know there's 53 00:03:02,340 --> 00:03:05,460 Sean Aylmer: demand out there for air purification, I'm talking a few 54 00:03:05,460 --> 00:03:08,040 Sean Aylmer: years back, and then it heads to the engineers to 55 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,619 Sean Aylmer: see what might happen, is that kind of how it works? 56 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:14,970 James Shale: I guess there's the playground element, where individuals will just 57 00:03:14,970 --> 00:03:18,780 James Shale: be kind of experimenting with things. So an anecdote is, 58 00:03:18,780 --> 00:03:21,150 James Shale: a friend of mine that I used to play badminton with 59 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:24,960 James Shale: in the UK was actually just playing around with silver 60 00:03:25,230 --> 00:03:28,889 James Shale: compounds to try and see what particles they could remove. 61 00:03:29,370 --> 00:03:32,340 James Shale: Worked out after a year or two that a particular 62 00:03:32,669 --> 00:03:35,520 James Shale: catalytic material with silver alloy it was really great for 63 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,910 James Shale: removing formaldehyde, and then several years down the line, we 64 00:03:38,910 --> 00:03:43,230 James Shale: integrated that onto a product. But some of the innovations 65 00:03:43,230 --> 00:03:47,460 James Shale: just come from people experimenting. I know the Airblade basically 66 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:50,160 James Shale: came from someone playing with a motor and an aperture 67 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,920 James Shale: of air, and had some water on their desk and realized 68 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,760 James Shale: that it was actually a phenomenal solution. So there's very 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,270 James Shale: much the kind of scientific cutting- edge element to the 70 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:04,470 James Shale: RBD, but then there's also kind of looking at our 71 00:04:04,470 --> 00:04:06,930 James Shale: existing technologies and working out how we can do it better. 72 00:04:07,230 --> 00:04:08,910 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, James. We'll be back in a minute. 73 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:18,270 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is James Shale, Service Manager for Australia 74 00:04:18,270 --> 00:04:22,289 Sean Aylmer: and New Zealand and a longtime engineer with Dyson. So, 75 00:04:22,290 --> 00:04:24,510 Sean Aylmer: how many prototypes do you go through when you're testing 76 00:04:24,510 --> 00:04:27,120 Sean Aylmer: or refining a product? I mean, I remember reading somewhere 77 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,510 Sean Aylmer: that the original Dyson vacuum cleaner went through thousands of 78 00:04:30,510 --> 00:04:34,589 Sean Aylmer: iterations. What about when you're testing and refining products? I mean, there 79 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:38,640 Sean Aylmer: must be plenty of testing going on and refinement going on? 80 00:04:39,510 --> 00:04:42,089 James Shale: Yeah, absolutely. I think we've tried to come a long 81 00:04:42,089 --> 00:04:45,150 James Shale: way, so that we don't need over 5, 000 prototypes 82 00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:48,420 James Shale: per model these days. But with a company of this 83 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:51,570 James Shale: scale, and it's not just about creating something that works 84 00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:54,630 James Shale: really well and has a really good performance spec, you 85 00:04:54,630 --> 00:04:57,060 James Shale: also want to go through iterations so you can check 86 00:04:57,060 --> 00:04:59,640 James Shale: that when it's in field, it's going to be really, 87 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,410 James Shale: really reliable. And good design comes from exploring as many 88 00:05:04,410 --> 00:05:07,680 James Shale: concepts as possible and settling on the best one. So 89 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,440 James Shale: yeah, that's still very much a part of the philosophy. It's okay to 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,380 James Shale: fail, it's okay to try something and not succeed, but 91 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,650 James Shale: you learn the lesson and then you move to another approach. 92 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:20,790 Sean Aylmer: It's funny, design I think for we outsiders who don't 93 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:23,910 Sean Aylmer: think about design all the time, design kind of has 94 00:05:23,910 --> 00:05:26,370 Sean Aylmer: a critical path in an economy, doesn't it? I mean, 95 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:29,190 Sean Aylmer: great design actually makes an economy work a hell of 96 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:33,330 Sean Aylmer: a lot better. Be it a manufacturing outlet, Dyson, a 97 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:37,440 Sean Aylmer: technology company, design is something that I think that most 98 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,560 Sean Aylmer: of we mere mortals don't think much about. 99 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:46,049 James Shale: I think everyone does in their life. Humans are always looking 100 00:05:46,050 --> 00:05:49,620 James Shale: to optimize and make things better. That might be efficient, 101 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:52,230 James Shale: that might be more pleasurable, that might be more functional, 102 00:05:52,529 --> 00:05:55,950 James Shale: but I think in a sense, all humans are innovators 103 00:05:55,950 --> 00:05:58,710 James Shale: and designers. It can be with processes, it can be 104 00:05:58,710 --> 00:06:03,330 James Shale: with lifestyle. I think it's an inherently human trait. I 105 00:06:03,330 --> 00:06:06,390 James Shale: guess where engineers are a little bit different is they're 106 00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:09,510 James Shale: really kind of in the physical mechanical elements, and also 107 00:06:09,510 --> 00:06:11,070 James Shale: in the software elements, trying to do that. 108 00:06:11,610 --> 00:06:13,620 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how far are you working ahead? Are you 109 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:15,600 Sean Aylmer: working on products now that we won't see for another 110 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:16,560 Sean Aylmer: five or 10 years? 111 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:23,310 James Shale: Absolutely. It's about solving problems, and sometimes in life, the 112 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:26,219 James Shale: technology isn't where you need it to be. So we're 113 00:06:26,220 --> 00:06:30,510 James Shale: trying to pioneer scientific principles, new ways of doing things, 114 00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:33,299 James Shale: particularly at the minute, the thing that I can share 115 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,300 James Shale: that the company's really doubling down on would be connectivity 116 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,960 James Shale: and robotics and automation. We definitely see that as the 117 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,040 James Shale: future. I think machine learning is another really, really interesting 118 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,580 James Shale: space where Dyson wants to innovate in. So we've got 119 00:06:47,580 --> 00:06:49,920 James Shale: a process that starts in the UK in a building 120 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,230 James Shale: called MPI, which is kind of our real blue- sky 121 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:56,279 James Shale: thinking, and then we develop that and eventually the design 122 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,900 James Shale: transfers to Singapore, where we get our best concepts and 123 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:04,289 James Shale: best ideas that solve problems in the best way through 124 00:07:04,290 --> 00:07:07,440 James Shale: to production, and then after production, through to the markets 125 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,830 James Shale: so our owners around the world can enjoy that technology. 126 00:07:11,370 --> 00:07:12,990 Sean Aylmer: So, when you're talking about machine learning then, are you 127 00:07:12,990 --> 00:07:18,000 Sean Aylmer: talking about future products that will have AI incorporated in 128 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,450 Sean Aylmer: them? Things that we would understand? I mean, we talk 129 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:23,850 Sean Aylmer: about vacuum cleaners and air purifiers and things like that 130 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,820 Sean Aylmer: from Dyson, but it's products like that which actually are 131 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,190 Sean Aylmer: just a lot smarter, or are we talking about a 132 00:07:29,190 --> 00:07:30,510 Sean Aylmer: whole new subset of products? 133 00:07:31,140 --> 00:07:33,570 James Shale: Yeah, well, I think you use the tools available to 134 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:37,620 James Shale: you. So, sometimes we take scientific principles and technology that 135 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:40,380 James Shale: already exists and integrate it into our products, but generally 136 00:07:40,620 --> 00:07:42,960 James Shale: we're trying to be first. I think in this new 137 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,780 James Shale: world, we've seen the rise of apps and how powerful 138 00:07:45,780 --> 00:07:49,230 James Shale: they can be, and that connected environment opens up so 139 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:54,750 James Shale: many more possibilities. If you think about control and access, 140 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,470 James Shale: or even just doing things better, the connected world gives 141 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:02,670 James Shale: us a pool of resource which enables better decision making. 142 00:08:03,060 --> 00:08:05,880 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. I just want to ask you about the 143 00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:08,730 Sean Aylmer: air purifier, which in a sense is kind of, everyone 144 00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:12,960 Sean Aylmer: understands what it does, but how do they actually work? 145 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,080 Sean Aylmer: Because it's such a big issue right now for most 146 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:16,410 Sean Aylmer: of us. 147 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:21,630 James Shale: Absolutely, and I think actually before Dyson really entered this space, 148 00:08:21,630 --> 00:08:24,570 James Shale: air quality wasn't something that people were overly conscious of. 149 00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:26,940 James Shale: There were certain countries around the world that were very 150 00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:30,180 James Shale: conscious because of their air pollution levels, you have asthma 151 00:08:30,180 --> 00:08:33,360 James Shale: sufferers or people who have allergies to pollen who were 152 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,330 James Shale: very sensitive about what was in the air, but Dyson's 153 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:39,000 James Shale: really kind of had to highlight the problems in that 154 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,960 James Shale: space. So, what we do with our technology is we 155 00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:45,660 James Shale: have a fan that spins at the center of the 156 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:48,540 James Shale: product and that draws air in, and our current machine 157 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:50,880 James Shale: has a three- layer filter. So on the outside you're 158 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,660 James Shale: going to have a lot of glass, HEPA material, glass 159 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:56,940 James Shale: cloth, and that's going to take away all the particulate 160 00:08:56,940 --> 00:09:00,900 James Shale: matter. We've actually got it so, kind of refined now, 161 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:03,450 James Shale: we can take out particles as small as 0. 1 162 00:09:03,450 --> 00:09:06,030 James Shale: microns. And what does that mean? Well, if I put 163 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:08,820 James Shale: it into context, the human blood cell is 0. 4 164 00:09:08,820 --> 00:09:12,179 James Shale: microns. After you go past that layer, we've got a 165 00:09:12,179 --> 00:09:15,510 James Shale: filter that incorporates granulated carbon, and that's going to be 166 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:19,770 James Shale: fantastic for removing gases and volatile organic compounds from the air. 167 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:23,010 James Shale: So particularly in home, nitrogen dioxide that comes off the 168 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:25,319 James Shale: car for people that have garages in the house, is 169 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,589 James Shale: a very harmful substance. And the latest technology, which was 170 00:09:28,590 --> 00:09:31,110 James Shale: pioneered by a good friend of mine who I alluded 171 00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:35,099 James Shale: to earlier, is a catalytic filter. And this filter's actually 172 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:39,000 James Shale: a lifetime filter and it's capable of taking formaldehyde particles, 173 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:41,699 James Shale: which we know are present in homes from our research, 174 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,870 James Shale: and actually breaking them down into harmless particles like water 175 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:49,890 James Shale: vapor and carbon dioxide. So yeah, we've really made a 176 00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:53,550 James Shale: lot of innovations in this space and engineered them into 177 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:54,479 James Shale: an all- in- one product. 178 00:09:55,350 --> 00:09:57,780 Sean Aylmer: Wow, and I mean, presumably people with allergies in that 179 00:09:58,140 --> 00:10:00,660 Sean Aylmer: could have a whole different lifestyle as a result? 180 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,199 James Shale: Oh yeah. I mean, I think in Japan there's a 181 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:08,100 James Shale: particular type of tree that emits pollen, and what was 182 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:11,309 James Shale: quite amazing was to be able to put that technology 183 00:10:11,309 --> 00:10:14,790 James Shale: in friends' homes that really suffered from it, and really 184 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:18,180 James Shale: got some severe symptoms and found that whole month where 185 00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:21,480 James Shale: the pollen levels from the trees was worse, and actually 186 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,420 James Shale: take that problem away from them and allow them to 187 00:10:24,420 --> 00:10:27,689 James Shale: have their home as this kind of safe relaxing space 188 00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:30,510 James Shale: again, was really quite satisfying. I spent a lot of 189 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:33,929 James Shale: time working on the EC category. EC stands for environmental 190 00:10:33,929 --> 00:10:36,960 James Shale: control, so to actually see it from the earliest design 191 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,170 James Shale: concept to actually making a real- world difference to friends 192 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:43,079 James Shale: and loved ones was a really satisfying journey, I'd say. 193 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Sean Aylmer: James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 194 00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:46,890 James Shale: Thanks for having me. 195 00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:49,679 Sean Aylmer: That was James Shale, Service Manager for Australia and New 196 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,280 Sean Aylmer: Zealand and a longtime engineer at Dyson, which is a 197 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,280 Sean Aylmer: supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed 198 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,650 Sean Aylmer: Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 199 00:10:58,650 --> 00:11:01,800 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,119 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.