WEBVTT - How AI is draining Australia’s green power 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.520 Back in twenty nineteen, a new venture in the Australian 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.680 Outback looks set to export our solar power to the world, 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.959 upending our neighbour's reliance on fossil fuels. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:11.240 Now. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 One of the most ambitious projects in Australia right now 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:15.200 is sun Cable. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.560 This is Australia's largest ever renewable energy project, a bold 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.320 plan to turn an old pastoral station in the heart 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.240 of the Northern Territory into a massive solar farm, transporting 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.639 electricity first to Darwin via eight hundred kilometers of overhead 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:35.200 transmission lines, then on to Singapore through four three hundred 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.480 kilometers of subsea cables. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.360 Some Cable is a company that was set up initially 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.000 to export a very large amount of solar energy through 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.199 the construction of a submarine cable. It was quite a 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.239 grand vision connecting Northern Australia to Southeast Asia. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.640 Backed by billionaires Michael Cannon Brooks and Andrew Forrest. Some 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.080 Cable was audacious in a scale and climate. At a 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.720 Katown Joshi was drawn to it from the start. Back 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.000 then he interviewed its founder and what he heard Sandlucke 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:07.960 science fiction. 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.000 And I was a little stunned by his descriptions because 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.479 they were so sci fi. In fact, he mentions this 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.959 thing called the Kardashev scale, which is this idea that 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.320 civilizations progress along their development based on how much energy 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:27.520 they consume. And it was a really fascinating and surprising 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.160 way to talk about something which was a big infrastructure 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:36.000 projects for Australia. And I have to say I really 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.560 enjoyed it. It was very grand and it appealed to the 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:41.119 sci fi kid in me. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.240 Some cable was meant to show what a different future 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.720 could look like, one where Australia could export massive amounts 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.520 of renewable power. But now that future is being overtaken 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.560 by something else entirely as big tech converges on Australia 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.600 to build data centers for AI. There's a fight over 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.279 how to use our renewable energy, and big tech is winning. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:12.600 I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven Am Today. 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.720 Writer and senior Research associated at the Australia Institute, Katan 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.160 Joshi on how Australia's AI push is colliding with the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.639 energy transition and what it means for our missions, our 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.040 power grid and the dream of becoming a clean energy exporter. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:42.880 It's Tuesday, January twenty seven in the scheme of things. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.280 How important was this project in terms of becoming an 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.000 exporter of renewable energy? 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.480 This was one of the biggest in Australia for sure. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.720 There's many different ways that Australia can be seen as 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.720 a clean energy exporter. You can dig up lithium and 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:59.920 you can ship it to China to have a process 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.480 eventually used in electric vehicles or batteries grid scale battery storage. 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.400 Australia can also export knowledge in the form of people 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.679 who work on solar panels. That so happened quite a 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.200 lot in the past, but this was one of the 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.040 first big projects that I remember hearing about where it 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:23.000 was literally physically exporting clean energy and in the form 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.440 of a cable that was of a length that was unprecedented. 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.560 It wasn't really a concept that people were familiar with 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.160 or that they considered to be particularly likely. There is 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.200 a lot of skeptics, and I actually think that's quite 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.880 a healthy thing to be skeptical about these sorts of 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.800 megaprojects that have a very different concept to them. But 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.240 at the same time I think that was a good 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.120 thing so the vision of Australia being a country that 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:53.040 exports energy, but energy that is not produced from fossil fuels. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.040 This was one of the biggest. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.160 Tell me about some cables backers and how satifni it 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.240 was at the time to have two Australia's most powerful 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:02.240 billionaires involved. 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.440 Yeah, that's Mike cannon Brooks, one of the co founders 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.240 of Atlasian and heavily involved in the clean energy spased 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:14.320 in Australia as a funder an investor. And Andrew Forrest, 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:20.000 the mining magnet currently with ford Eskew. And Andrew Forrest 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.880 has been heavily backing the idea of hydrogen as a 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.680 clean energy fuel, and ford Eskew has been making a 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.840 bunch of major investments in that regard. Both of them 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.960 have a very different approach. It was reported that Forrest 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.640 was really much more interested in using the solar power 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:41.360 to produce hydrogen and then ship that hydrogen overseas and 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.080 that's how the export of clean energy happens, whereas canon 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.640 Brooks really wanted to focus on the original plan to 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:53.120 basically build a giant submarine electricity cable connecting northern Australia 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.280 up to Southeast Asia, and it was this tension that 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.279 played a role in the eventual falling out of those 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.000 two billionaires behind this project, and Canon Brooks eventually won out. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.440 But then towards the end of last year, the company 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.960 announced that that priority of exporting clean energy had changed 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.919 that would focus more now on Australia. So why is 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:15.280 that that's correct? 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.800 Yeah, so this was recently announced that they sort of 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.080 maintained that their long term focus is on export of 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.160 clean energy, but in the short term they'll be focusing 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.960 on providing clean electricity to data center facilities, which is 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:31.520 large warehouses full of computers. People mostly know them for 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.880 doing things like running video calls or storing files, but 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.600 more recently they've been growing in their applications for artificial 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.760 intelligence and machine learning. This is the predominant mode of 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.400 growth for data centers. So if you're seeing a new one, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.599 it's probably something to do with AI, and specifically the 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.920 type of artificial intelligence that generates information so text, images, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.880 and videos. That is something that is quite new in Australia. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.679 Australia is actually the second largest jurisdiction in the world 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.239 for planned data centers. I think people don't quite nervous, 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:10.839 not just in terms of the amount of dollar value 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.680 for investment, but just even just in terms of raw capacity, 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.000 which is measured in the power consumption in gigawatts. There 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.480 hasn't been a new industry of this level of electricity 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:21.920 consumption for quite some time. 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.200 Coming up how the race to build data centers threatens 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:29.279 our climate goals. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:44.880 Today we'll be launching Australia's National Artificial Intelligence Plan. It 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.280 is directed towards three national interest priorities. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.320 Firstly, making sure that katan. Our leaders have been talking 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.680 a lot about Australia becoming an AI hub and part 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.240 of that is welcoming big investment in data centers. So 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.760 tell me more about the scale the government and the 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.760 industry has in mind. Yeah. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:08.159 The National AI Plan, I think, focuses on a duller 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.280 value of one hundred billion for data center investment in 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.320 Australia and that really is globally significant. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:19.120 Making sure that we're making AI technology here as well 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:24.360 as taking the best of artificial intelligence technology into Australia 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.400 to do important national interest things. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.040 This is a trend we're seeing around the world. I'm 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.320 based in Norway and the EU has been making similar 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:38.280 noises talking about actively trying to attract investment around artificial intelligence. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.400 The government's AI plan really focused on productivity and the 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.320 potential gains for the economy, and having read that plan, 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.600 I think that it ignored some of the major potential 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.000 downsides of that level of data center growth in such 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:54.320 a short period of time. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.280 Yeah, so tell me about some of those downsides. 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.000 There was a new report that came out from Australia 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.440 Clean Energy Finance Corporation that examined both the upside and 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.040 the downside of data center development, and it's really important 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.640 because it shows that the potential upside, that is, if 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.280 the data centers pay for renewable energy to cover basically 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.600 all of their operations, the upside for emissions is not 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.000 really that great. It's only a couple of percent reduction 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.880 in emissions thanks to data center growth. But the downside 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.240 if data centers basically fail to bring sufficient renewable energy 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.960 as they grow, and they grow much faster than projected, 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:38.400 the downside is fifteen eighteen percent emissions increase for the 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.000 power sector in Australia. So there's not a lot of 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:47.080 emissions reductions potential, but there is a lot of potential emissions. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.320 Worsening how much electricity will I require? And just as importantly, 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.120 what is that going to mean for our power grid? 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.840 If you look at it as a sort of percentage 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.720 change in the potential future total electricity consumption of all 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:06.120 of Australia's grids, it's roughly on par with maybe sort 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.040 of three to four percent that kind of range, And 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.160 it can sound small, but it's important to put it 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.440 in the context of the energy transition that's occurring at 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.360 the same time. That energy transition is occurring within those 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.400 small percentage changes, right, So what happens is when you 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.280 have a large number of new electric vehicles, for instance, 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.040 competing for space on the power grid because they need 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.240 to be charged. When you have new manufacturing facilities that 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.200 are coming online making parts for clean energy, for instance, 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.199 all of these different things are actually competing for space 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.079 on the power grid. And it's in that small percentage 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.200 that all of these things jostle for connection rights to 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:52.320 the grid or cheap access to electricity. And so that 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.480 is why even though the level of change is around 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.720 the same as we have for electric vehicles and electrification, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.360 it's still quite significant and has a significant impact because 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.800 the addition of those new data centers. The power grid 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.840 also incentivizes increased generation from coal and gas to the 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.360 extent where you can actually end up with coalfid power 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:20.000 stations in particular seeking justification to extend their lifespan thanks 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.320 to projections of increased power demand in the future, and 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.720 it's a real threat to climate goals. It was quite 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:32.319 remarkable to see Australia's Climate Change Authority mention data center 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:36.680 growth specifically as a reason why their initial suggestions of 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.320 a stronger twenty thirty five climate target were kind of 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.520 weakened down to a sixty two percent reduction from two 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.360 thousand and five levels by twenty thirty five. So they 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:50.640 actually suggested that there would be fewer emissions reductions available 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.240 to Australia thanks to data center growth, and I think 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.040 that's significant. It doesn't mean that data centers were a 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:00.480 whole story as to why these suggestions shifted, but the 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.080 fact that it's become a factor that is big enough 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.480 to mention in a report like that suggests that something 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:07.400 big is changing. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.000 The government says these data centers are critical infrastructure and 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.440 that this industry is important for our modern economy. So 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.920 is it possible to get those benefits without blowing out 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:19.880 the energy transition. 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.800 Yes, absolutely for sure. And so there's a few different 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.560 things you can do. First of all, you can mandate 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.960 what's known as high quality renewable energy for curement. That's 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.199 an awful word, salad, I'm sorry, but just to explain it, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.120 it means. It means forcing the companies that are building 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.120 data centers to make sure that they are well and 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.680 truly funding, at the very least the same amount of 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.559 new power demand that they create with the same amount 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.440 of renewable energy, so not like a small fraction of it, 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:49.920 but the same amount and if not more. That's the 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.720 basic first step. And then the next step, of course, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.480 is to actually try and ensure that the growth of 0:11:55.520 --> 0:12:00.760 power demand is itself limited or controlled or justified. This 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.160 is much thornier and it's something that societies haven't really 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.079 tackled with because data centers are not clear about the 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.160 purpose that they serve. You can build a data center 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.360 that helps the hospital run its computers, but you can 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.040 also build a data center that creates a billion sloppy 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:19.360 images of awful things on social media, right, and so 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.120 it's unclear what's doing what, and so the level of 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.960 social usefulness comes into this is it's a really important thing. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.559 I think I saw a billion of those sloppy images 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.120 in my Instagram feed this morning. Yeah, good time. Given 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.199 the government is making these huge bet on data centers, 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.240 does that mean that the dream of us becoming a 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.760 major exporter of renewables is now dead? 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.439 No, not necessarily. It's just a question of what we 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.720 want to use our resources for. You could argue that 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.480 Australia becoming a major data center hub for the world 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.640 is a form of renewable energy export. It's just the 0:12:55.679 --> 0:13:00.280 manufacture of data rather than the manufacturer of steel, because 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.679 data is of course sent overseas. But I think that's 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.280 a weak argument because again when you look at the 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.320 systemic effects, what we see around the world where data 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.800 center growth is the fastest is that fossil fuels end 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.640 up being incentivized. And so it really comes down to 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.840 a question not so much of dreams of export or 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.440 what we do about our position in the world in 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.320 terms of energy, but what we do with domestic choices, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.680 what we do with domestic energy. These are really really 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.160 thorny questions and I think it's actually nice to see 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.200 them now being asked. Thanks to the creation of such 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.640 a new and sudden industry that consumes a lot of 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:48.280 electrical energy. Australia owns its resources of the solar power 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.360 that falls upon its surface or the wind that blows 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.240 across its surface, and these are questions about what to 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.840 do with resources, just as Australia face those same questions 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.160 when it discovered vast amounts of in gas. This is 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.760 something that needs to be asked. Is it worthwhile to 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:09.680 use those resources to help decarbonize Asia or to run 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.280 the creation of a thousand videos. This is really really 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.800 important stuff and I don't want to come across as 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.440 to oppose to data center growth. I just think that 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.520 those questions need to be asked for a healthy and 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.160 democratic conversation to be had, because if the worst case 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.720 does happen, if data center growth goes out of control, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.200 then the dream of becoming an energy exports superpower is 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.160 well and truly dead, and that would be a bad. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:41.160 Outcomes an Thank you so much for speaking with us, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:54.360 no worries, thanks for having me. Also in the youth, 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.080 former US President Barack Obama has called the killing of 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.320 a thirty seven year old nurse in Minneapol a heartbreaking 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.200 tragedy and a wake up call to every American. There 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.760 are now growing calls for an investigation into the killing 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.800 of Alex Preddy by federal immigration officers. In a statement, 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.320 the Obamas said ICE agents in Minnesota can not operate 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.760 it in a lawful or accountable way. And thousands of 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.640 people attended Invasion Day rallies across the country yesterday, calling 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.320 to change the date of Australia Day or abolish it 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:30.000 all together. In Melbourne, more than a thousand people gathered 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.920 at Camp Sovereignty for a dawn service. The event featured speeches, dances, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.240 and historical accounts of violence against First Nations people. I'm 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.280 Daniel James. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.