1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of you project. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: It's Harps Craig Anthony harp I hope you're bloody terrific. 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Another installment of us. Today, I'm talking with doctor Frederick Luskin, 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: who's a world renowned I don't know if he likes 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: to call himself authority, expert, guru, he's probably all of that. 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: In the area of forgiveness, and in heading towards two 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: thousand episodes, We've never had a conversation around forgiveness, so 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I've been somewhat negligent. But today is that day. Hi Frederick, 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: how are you? 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: I'm fine? Thank you. 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: In all of that time, I've never done an episode. 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: It's funny because Melissa, who runs My Life, who would 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: have sent you or your team the inquiry about getting 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: you on the show. She said, oh, you're interviewing I've 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: got three episodes today And she said, oh, you're interviewing 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: someone who's fascinating in the morning. This said this to 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: me yesterday and I said who and she said, oh, 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: this PhD dude who's a guru one forgiveness. And I 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: went like, I've never even thought to do a standalone 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: episode on that. But anyway, I appreciate you. I'm super 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: glad that you're here. And could you, rather than me 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: read a bio, could you tell my audience a little 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: bit about you please. 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a ex hippie who has start at Stanford 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: University for about thirty years, and for most of that 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: time have done my best to continue to at least 27 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: keep a shred of hippie nature going. So I teach meditation. 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: You had mentioned sports. I am. I'm the mindfulness teacher 29 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: for a couple of Stamford sports teams. I go into 30 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: the corporate world and try to teach them about peace, 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: love and grenelle try to be nice people. So I have. 32 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: I've tried not to fully give up on that kind 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: of innocent hope for a better future. 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: Well, you've just given me the title of the show 35 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: in the first one minute of our conversation, which which 36 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: is peace, love and granola. So I'm just writing that 37 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: down right now. 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: Well that's that was one of the ways of kidding 39 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 2: about the sixties. 40 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: How yeah, I imagine what when you say you were 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: trying to hold onto your kind of your hippie. 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: Roots, did you did? 43 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: Were you? Were you right caught up in the middle 44 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: of the hippie movement. Yeah, you're not that old, right, 45 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: How what do you know? 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: I missed it by a bit. But so during high 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: school I was a little young, but when there was 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: a pro test against the war in Vietnam, we marched 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: to the local park and we sang songs. And I 50 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: remember going to school things where we would push for 51 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: housing for low income people and that black people should 52 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 2: be able to live in our community. So I remember 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: that kind of positive protest energy. I dropped out a 54 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: graduate school like a million years ago and started a 55 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: vegetarian restaurant at the beach about an hour and a 56 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: half south of San Francisco. And we used to get 57 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: just dozens of people, you know, who would travel around 58 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: and follow the grateful dead, and you know, we caught 59 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: catered things for Neil Young's people because Neil Young lived. 60 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: And so yes, I missed the heart of it, but 61 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: my heart was there, and whenever I could bump up 62 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: against it, I was delighted. 63 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: And was there any for you at that time? Was 64 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: there any kind of underlying spiritual philosophy or was it 65 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: just about doing good and being good and connecting with 66 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: others and helping. 67 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: I was born Jewish, and while my parents were not 68 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: religious at all, and there is a cornerstone to the 69 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: Jewish something which says that you do your religion in 70 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: the world. It's not otherworldly, it's how you treat your partner. 71 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: That whole idea of heal the world social act is 72 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: very resonant with that part of Jewishness. So I got 73 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: that in Osmosis. You know that in order to be 74 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: a good Jew, so to speak, you were supposed to 75 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 2: do something of value. A little later in my life 76 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: I did discover, like so many people of my generation, 77 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: yoga and meditation, and again people a little older than 78 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: I was, they went off to India and met gurus 79 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: and blah blah blah blah. But I'll tell you one 80 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: interesting story of this kind of link. Yeah, this was 81 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: in the very late seventies, so this is a long 82 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: time ago. And we had this restaurant, and I knew 83 00:05:54,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: that Ramdas was living about ten minutes from where the 84 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 2: restaurant was. So we sent him a letter, the three 85 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 2: of us hippies who had started this place, and we said, 86 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: you know, we love you, we thank you, We already 87 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: be here. Now come visit us and we'll give you 88 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: free food. So three days later he pulled up to 89 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: the front of our place in a little red MG convertible, 90 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: gets out of the thing, walks into our restaurant and said, 91 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: you sent me a lovely letter. Here I am. So 92 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,559 Speaker 2: he sat with us for three four hours, telling us 93 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: all of his stories about India and meeting his guru. 94 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 2: And you know, he was saying to us, you're doing 95 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: the right thing, you know, like you want to bring 96 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: spirituality to action. We didn't fully know what he was 97 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: talking about. We were young, but it was it was 98 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: a very powerful meeting of somebody clearly much more at 99 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: tune than I was to the spirit, who sabled us 100 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: literally for hours. He sat in our kitchen and talked 101 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: with us and you know, kitted around with us and 102 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: guided us. And that was that helped to me articulate 103 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: some of the inco wait things that were there inside 104 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: of me but didn't have words for. 105 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: Amazing now now didn't wasn't around us originally? Excuse my ignorance. 106 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: Was he not originally a psychology professor or something? 107 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, and the really the reason so, yes, he 108 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: was a psychology prof us or at Harvard, Yes, but 109 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: he had gotten his PhD at Stanford, right, right, So 110 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: not ten years about seven years later I was teaching 111 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: at Stamford. This is like maybe it was, yeah, about 112 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: ten years later, a little more, I was teaching at Stanford. 113 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: I wrote him another letter saying that you know, you 114 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: came into our little hippie place. We thank you. I 115 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: had bumped into a couple of times before. But I'm 116 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: now a PhD student at Stanford. Will you come talk 117 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: to one of my classes? He said yes, So he 118 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: came down to Stanford because he hadn't been back on 119 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: that campus in a decade and he had gotten his 120 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: PhD there. And so we met again and he spent 121 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: ninety minutes speaking to the class and then we went 122 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: to snack together at the union. But part of his 123 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: discussion with the class was his history of being a 124 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: doctoral student at Stanford in the fifties, and you know, 125 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: it was just a wonderful interaction. 126 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, this is a weird question, but I'm just interested, like, 127 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: when you are around somebody like him, is there is 128 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: there a different energy? Like do you feel you know, 129 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: and I'm not talking about some psychological perception, but do 130 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: you feel a different energy around somebody who is that 131 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: deep into the journey. 132 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: Yes and no. Right, I'm going to tell you that 133 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: I'm more taken not by energy but by behavior. Okay, 134 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: so let me tell you a ramda story and then 135 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: a John Cabbage Zinn story. Okay. 136 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 137 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: The Ramdas story is when he came to Stamford to 138 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: give that talk, I had handed out to everybody in 139 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: the class a reprint of an article from Yoga Journal 140 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: to introduce Ramdas. Now, I had given the class part 141 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: of one of his books to read, but the book 142 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: was old. But I gave him like a current you know, 143 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: Yoga Journal. But I didn't read the issue. I just 144 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: handed it to the class before he showed up. I 145 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: started to read the issue and I was mortified. Oh wow, 146 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't that flattering. And when Ramdas showed 147 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: up at Stanford through the School of Education, I go 148 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 2: up to him and I literally am going, oh shit. 149 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: So I go round us. I can't thank you enough 150 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: for coming, but I have to apologize because I didn't 151 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: that the article that I gave the students about what 152 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: you're doing now, and it wasn't that positive. You know, 153 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: it didn't paint you in the best of lights, and 154 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed. And he looked at me with a hundred 155 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 2: percent sincerity, right in the eye and said, it doesn't 156 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: matter to me when anybody writes about me. Wow. Wow. 157 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 2: And he said it with such conviction and such there 158 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: was no embellishment. It was just this is his truth. Yes, 159 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: that he taught me something that all the speeches couldn't 160 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: have taught me. Yeah, don't be attached to your ego, 161 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: don't worry about the world, just do your thing. So 162 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: that was his teaching about that. He was in front 163 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 2: of the class and didn't even blink one hair on 164 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: his head about that they had seen something not totally 165 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: flattering about him. Wow. So that's a Ramdas story, a 166 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: John cabot Zinn story who started the mindfulness stuff. I'm 167 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: at a group where he and I are participants. There's 168 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: about twenty five people in a room and we're all 169 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: there for I don't even remember, like holistic health or something, 170 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: and somebody in the room objects to what John Caputsn 171 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: had just said. He had just made a statement. A 172 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 2: woman in the room like said to him, John, that's 173 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 2: such a sexist thing to say, Like, why would you 174 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: say something like that. Yeah, and John Capitsin looked at 175 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: her and said, no, I would never have thought that 176 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: be sexist. Explain to me what you mean. So she's 177 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: told him. He thought about it for a minute and said, 178 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: you know, it's still not something that would be natural 179 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: to me. But I'm really sorry that I didn't have 180 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: enough awareness before I said what I said, And I 181 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: thank you for educating me. Wow, And that was That 182 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: was the entire end of the discussion. The woman was happy, 183 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: he was happy, everybody was happy. And again I watched 184 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: what an untached ego sounded like. Is that a good 185 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: answer for you? Yeah? 186 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. I love that. It's 187 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: all about what people are doing, and yeah, it's why 188 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: do you think? I don't know if this is in 189 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: your wheelhouse, but I'm sure you have an opinion. Why 190 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: do you think we are so worried about what people 191 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: think of us? Why are we so attached to approval 192 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: and validation and often from people will will never meet. 193 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: Well, I can speak from my own insights, Yeah, that 194 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: there's a piece of me that wants to be liked 195 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: and approve of because my own self approval is not sufficient, 196 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: So I'm weak you know, I don't have a deep 197 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: enough sense of being okay, So I require somebody else 198 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: to validate me, come in and rescue me. And if 199 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: they take it away or don't offer it, then then 200 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: my lack becomes larger and I get anxious. Oh my god, 201 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: I don't have enough like self love in here. So 202 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: if they take theirs away, I'm like skating on thin 203 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: ice withold hot choose. That's what it. That's what it 204 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: kind of feels like. So that's one two. I think 205 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: as human beings, we are social creatures, so we have 206 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: some built in survival needs to belong, yeah, you know, 207 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: to to have a group, to be approved of, to 208 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: have shared values, and to know that if things happened, 209 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: there are people who will help us. So when we're rejected, 210 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: that that builds up a legitimate social anxiety to some degree. 211 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: Then I think there's also the i'm gonna say the 212 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: cost that many people have had of poor parents. You 213 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: know that they didn't get validated, they didn't get mirrored, 214 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: they didn't get loved as children enough. So there's a deficit. 215 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: You know, there's a their upbringing was not sufficient, Like 216 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: they didn't get enough soul, food and so they're always 217 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: looking for it because it wasn't there developmentally when they 218 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: need it. So that's three right off the top of 219 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: my head. 220 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I agree. And it's interesting 221 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: how even as a coach or a mentor or you know, 222 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 1: sometimes I sit with people that I'm meeting for the 223 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: first time and they're way more worried about what I 224 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: think of them than what they think of them. And 225 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, that's something that we talk about. But anyway, 226 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: let's talk about your Well, I'm sure you've got many 227 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: fields of expertise, but so I want to talk about forgiveness, 228 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about your books, your research. 229 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: There's maybe the dumbest question, but I just want to 230 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: start with it. So can you define forgiveness? Like what 231 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: is forgiveness? Like? What is it? What does it mean practically, 232 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: like emotionally, psychologically? 233 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: So do you need validation that that was the dumbest question? 234 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: No, I'll just believe it, can you? No, I need 235 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: validation that it wasn't the dumbest No, Craig, that's not 236 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: a dumb question. No, you're not a dummy. You're a 237 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: bit of a dummy. But no, exactly what I did 238 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: what I did. That's that's why you're the smile one. 239 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: You're going, Okay, So what is rough? What is? You know? 240 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: What is what is forgiveness as a process, as a 241 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: psychological construct, as a as an expression of emotion. I 242 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: don't know. 243 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. Forgiveness is the ability to 244 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: see your life clearly enough, including the suffering. You know, 245 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: it's not denial, it's not minimizing. It's I may have 246 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: had really bad parents, or I may have been beaten, 247 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: or I may have been abandoned. Is to see your 248 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: life clearly enough, both the bad and the good, so 249 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: that you don't have to live back there, but can 250 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: see it, accept it, and open your life enough to 251 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: what's next. It's like right here, right now, I can 252 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: tell you. You know, I've been deeply loved at times, and 253 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 2: other times I've been rejected. You know, there's a truth 254 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: and a presentness. But the forgiveness goes from Okay, when 255 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: some of those rejections I may have gotten stuck in, 256 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: I forgive that so I can be in the present 257 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: with clarity and not leave lots of my energy or 258 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: thing behind. So I'm just open to my life. The 259 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: whole thing you know, it's like I don't kept to 260 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: constantly go over like the person who mistreated me in 261 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 2: two thousand and ten. But I don't ignore it or 262 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: minimize it. I don't pretend it didn't happen. 263 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: Hey, that. Yes, I've spoken a little bit doc lately 264 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: about I'm listening to a book by an author. Her 265 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: name is Abigail Schreier. She wrote a book called Bad 266 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: Therapy and Bad Therapy. She talks about the idea that revisiting, 267 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, past trauma, and going every Tuesday and sitting 268 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: down with your psychologist or your psychiatrist and you know, 269 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: talking about that thing as you alluded to, that happened 270 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: ten years ago or whatever it was. For some people 271 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: it's there are peutic. For some people, it's actually quite 272 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: destructive and toxic. And all it does is reopend. 273 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: To tell you that for most people it's destructive. Yeah 274 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: that when enough time has passed, Yeah, and you've shared 275 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: the woe with me story so that some people have 276 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: heard you. Yeah, generally speaking, redoing it over and over 277 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: is not a good thing. 278 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that I've always thought that, but I hadn't 279 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: heard anyone, you know, kind of say that out loud 280 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: and yeah, and I think also, you know one of 281 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: the things about you know, so I told you I 282 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: come from an exercise science background, so prescribing exercise for people, 283 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: and you know, talk about nutrition and lifestyle and sleep 284 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: and all of those things. And I'm doing, you know, 285 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: my doctorate in europsych at the moment and all of that. 286 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: And like my experience is that there's no set formula 287 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: for everyone, right, and so what will work for what 288 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: will work for one person won't for another. You know, 289 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: this exercise prog for you might be perfect for me, 290 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: it's terrible for you. Eat a certain food and it 291 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: works for your body, but it doesn't work for my body. 292 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: I give you some advice that's good advice for you, 293 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: But someone else with a similar issue, I give them 294 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: that advice. It doesn't work or it's terrible. And I 295 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: think this like in science and psychology sometimes and medicine, 296 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: like there's almost this prescriptive thing that you know, this 297 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: is the problem, this is the solution, rather than taking 298 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: into account individual variability. Like I can eat almonds, I 299 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: love them. You eat almonds, you have an anaphylactic reaction, 300 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: you know, So trying to understand the individual needs of 301 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: the person. 302 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I'm going to articulate it. Both are 303 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: true that there are general tendencies and then within those 304 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: general tendencies, lot of individual variants. But for the exercise world, 305 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: clearly it's better to move than not, you know, for 306 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 2: the diet world, it's clearly better to have a varied 307 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 2: plant based diet than not. But that doesn't mean there 308 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: are absolute prescriptions that fit everybody. That would be my taking. 309 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 2: With getting over being wounded or being mistreated, there are 310 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: a couple of like global truths. So one of them 311 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: is you have to grieve that wound, so you have 312 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 2: to acknowledge it, you have to honor the suffering that 313 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: comes from being wounded, you have to have a community 314 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: of some people to share it, and you have to 315 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: give it some time, like the brain requires time to 316 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 2: integrate hurtful experience. So it would be generally wrong to 317 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: tell people, you know, if you come home and your 318 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: partners in bed with someone else, to just get over it, 319 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: because generally speaking, on nervous system can't do that. The 320 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: issue comes with let's say it's six months later and 321 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: some people have been smart enough to yell, kick, scream, 322 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: hate the person talk badly about them, draw little deaf 323 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: things about them, and then they get that through their system, 324 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: and six months later they're ready to go, Okay, I 325 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: got it out of my system. I'm ready to move on. Yeah, 326 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: some people, maybe a year later are are still struggling 327 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: with all sorts of things. But maybe two years later, 328 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: it then becomes okay to tell people, you know, whatever 329 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: it is, enough time has passed and you need to 330 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: move on. But nobody can know whether that's appropriated six 331 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: months or eighteen months for somebody, but you can know 332 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: that you know this has gone on long enough when 333 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: it's like excessive. So that's one dimension where how long 334 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: and how intensely do you great grieve and argue? Another 335 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: dimension is like within your suffering, Like some people are 336 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: more private, and some people don't you know, they don't 337 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: need to let twelve people know. So you might have 338 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: somebody who has you know, and I hate hue party 339 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: for their ex spouse, and somebody else just takes themselves 340 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 2: out to dinner. However, the research is clear that you 341 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: have to tell a couple of people. If you just 342 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: stuff it inside, yeah, you're going to suffer more. So again, 343 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: I hope you see what I'm getting at, there are 344 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 2: some general tendencies, and there's a lot of variance within 345 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: those tendencies. 346 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: What's it the opposite end of the style of forgiveness? 347 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: So what's the antithesis of forgiveness? What word or term 348 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: would you use? 349 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: A grievance, a grudge, you know, a story that cements 350 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 2: you as a victim. Those might be opposites to forgiveness. 351 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: What's the What are some of the potential physiological consequences 352 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: of both? Like, what might you know? Real forgiveness to 353 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: me seems like not only mentally and emotionally a healthy thing, 354 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: but physiologically a healthy thing. And you know, resentment hate 355 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: has you know, a physical consequence, So like, apart from 356 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: the mental and emotional benefits, I guess it's also good 357 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: for our body. I guess it's also good for our 358 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: physical health. 359 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: Well, just you know, if you're going to sit there 360 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 2: right now and imagine that you need to spend the 361 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: next ten minutes, I'm not asking you to do it 362 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: talking about the worst people in your life or the 363 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 2: people who have harmed you the most. Even just thinking 364 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: about it makes your whole body feel heavier, yes, and 365 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: it disrupts your heart rate. You can feel it just 366 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 2: by anticipating it. You go, oh shit, and your heart 367 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: starts getting a little chaotic and your muscles get tired. 368 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: That's just thinking about it. If, on the other hand, 369 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: you think about, well, you know, where was I the 370 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: most resilient? Where where did I take life shit? And 371 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: you know, deal with it successfully and move on and 372 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: not be stuck about there. When you think that, you 373 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 2: have an upsurge in energy and a deeper sense of like, wow, 374 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: I'm good. But it's not just a mental thing. It's 375 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: a full body thing. Yeah, So if you think of 376 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: your day as some parts of your day you're just bitching. 377 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: You know, nothing's good enough, you hate everybody, like the 378 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: traffic sucks, Everything sucks. It's a full body experience, you know. 379 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:05,239 Speaker 2: All you know absoil yourselves everything. They get that, And 380 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: then you think of other parts of your day when 381 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: you say you're forgiving, like you know, if you live 382 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: with somebody, they make a mistake and you go, honey, 383 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: that's okay. You're you're basically a wonderful person. Why would 384 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: I hold this? You can feel in your body the 385 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 2: freedom of that. When you hold a grudge time after time, 386 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: after time you stress your body, yes, yes, and over 387 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: time that kind of stress can wear out the weakest 388 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: aspects in your body. Yeah. 389 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: Well, thoughts and feelings have a physiological consequence, and I 390 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: always talk about this with groups about your body. Can't 391 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: distinguish between what is real and what you think is real? 392 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: You know what you're focusing on? What about doc? What 393 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: about people who are listening to this and they're thinking 394 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: this all makes sense, except he doesn't understand my partner 395 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: or my ex partner, who's a complete prick, who doesn't 396 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: deserve forgiveness, who never said sorry, who is a fucking idiot, like, 397 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: who's just a self centered narcissist, who's a fucking sociopath? 398 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: Like fuck that guy? Right, Well, that somebody's listening going, yeah, 399 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: that makes sense, But you haven't met this person in 400 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: my life. What do you have to say to them? 401 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: And I'm not questioning per se. I'm just curious around that. 402 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: When I said to you, what is forgiveness? And I 403 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 2: implied that it was a pleasant, centered acceptance of the 404 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: truth of your live, you can say that I dated 405 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: or married very poorly. I made a big mistake. I 406 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: didn't recognize the signs I enabled terrible behavior and the 407 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: guy was a girl, was much worse than I thought possible. 408 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: That's all true, but that doesn't keep you stuck five 409 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: years ago. It's just true right when you're in that 410 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: he's an idiotic sociopath who should rotten. Hell, you're still 411 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 2: in argument with your own life. Yeah, And the only 412 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: person who can suffer from arguing with your own life 413 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: is you. So if you like, I'm just going to 414 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: give you a funny example. Because a very good friend 415 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: of mine that I taught with at the university for 416 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: twenty years, she retired. You know, she's ahead of me 417 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: a little bit, and she was talking about this past week. 418 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: She went with somebody close to her to the doctor 419 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: because it was an anxiety producing thing, and she went 420 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: to support this person and that was wonderful, but she 421 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: brought up a time in her past when her partner 422 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 2: then had not supported her. And this was, believe it 423 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: or not, in the eighties, and she still referred to 424 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: him as an idiot. So at that moment, at that 425 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: very second, she's still blaming them for something that was 426 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: forty years ago. 427 00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. 428 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So she hasn't fully forgiven because in the present moment, 429 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 2: she can't say, you know, I had a very trying 430 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: experience when I was vulnerable and the person I depended 431 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: on simply failed me. That's a truthful statement, but that's 432 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: in the present and is not blaming somebody for ruining anything, 433 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: And so I can simply live my life. You know, Yes, 434 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: this person let me down, but of course I've forgiven 435 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: it because this moment and tomorrow I want to be 436 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: able to love as best I can and not be 437 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: burdened by all the crap that I've gone through. 438 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: So the forgiveness, the act of forgiving, is not for 439 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: the other person. 440 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 2: It's for us, of course, because the act of ruining 441 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: your life is for you. Yes. 442 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: Yes, So when somebody says, when someone says he or 443 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: she doesn't deserve my forgiveness, they're actually getting it wrong. 444 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 2: They might be right, but that's not a reason to suffer. 445 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, I think some people get confused on 446 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: that because it's like, I feel like the idea of saying, 447 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: oh it's okay that you hit me, that you mistreated me, 448 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: that it's not fucking okay. But I feel like when 449 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: they say I forgive you, then that's what they think 450 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: they're saying, and so there's a reluctance there, but it's 451 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: not really that at all. It's really I'm liberating myself 452 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: from that bullshit. Well who decides, yeah, like, who decides 453 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: if they deserve my forgiveness? So you' judge of the universe. 454 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: That do you know? 455 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: Well, I am thanks for asking. 456 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: So at least that's being truthful. Yes, Like, this person 457 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 2: behaves so badly that I decided that I'm never letting 458 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: it go. Well, that's fine, But to say they don't 459 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: deserve it, you, first of all, have no idea whether 460 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 2: they deserve it. They might have such a hard life 461 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 2: and maybe their unkindness to you was tripped in them 462 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: something become a better person? Who knows? Yes, But your 463 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 2: judgment of them is never accurate enough because let's say, 464 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: you know, let's even take something awful like a hitting 465 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 2: r U driver kills your kid, and you know, you 466 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 2: don't even know who they are, but you could ten 467 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 2: years later they don't deserve my forgiveness. What they did 468 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: was unforgivable and you don't even know who they are. 469 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 2: How do you know? Yes, they might have made a mistake, 470 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: and who knows. I'm not excusing bad behavior, But you 471 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: asked me what it is, and it's an ability to 472 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: tell the truth. It's different than your throwing around your 473 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: judgments and your opinions and your hostile ideas forever. 474 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: Did you have a moment in your hippie dyes, in 475 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: your vegetarian restaurant dies when you stepped away from academia, 476 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, because obviously you stepped back into academia at 477 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: some stys. Did you have a moment an epiphany which 478 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: was the genesis for this curiosity around forgiveness? 479 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 2: I had two of them. 480 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 481 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: I was very badly hurt decades ago by an abandonment 482 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: and it literally ripped to my life for about three years, 483 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: Like I didn't trust after that. I had a bitterness 484 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: to my tone, like you know, if this person can 485 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: do this, then all bets are off and life is scary. 486 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 2: And it's true, you know some of it. I hadn't 487 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 2: made peace with the truth. But for like three years, 488 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: I was a bitch and I subjected my wife to 489 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: like nastiness that she didn't deserve because I had lost faith. 490 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 2: And then one day we had a child. This is 491 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: a long time, it's thirty years ago, and she's at 492 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: home with the baby, and I get home and she says, 493 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: I need you to go shopping, and I'm in a grouchy, 494 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 2: paint in the s mood. I don't want to go shopping. 495 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 2: She hands me a shopping list, she says, you got 496 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: to go here, you got to get these items. And 497 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: now so I go out, giving myself a full pity 498 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 2: party about I'm working all day and I have this 499 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 2: battle axe wife who's like, I mean, I'm. 500 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,720 Speaker 1: Just ha ha ha, I'm. 501 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 2: In oh ruin my life mode. I get to the 502 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: store and they don't have what she wanted, Like she said, 503 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: you got to go to this store because they have 504 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: this I had a park like two miles away. Anyway, 505 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: I get to that spot, they don't have what she wants, 506 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 2: and my mind literally blows or fuse, like nobody loves me. 507 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: Life isn't fair, you know, all sorts of self pitying nonsense. 508 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: And then something inside of me snaps and I noticed 509 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: that I'm in a supermarket in San Jose, California, and 510 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: all I am is sitting in a supermarket and they 511 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 2: don't have a couple of items, and everything else in 512 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 2: my life is abundant. Everything I have a partner, I 513 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: have a child, I have a job. The only problem 514 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 2: was me, and that moment of looking at all the 515 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 2: food and this big supermarket in a shopping center change 516 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: me wow, Like, wow, boy, do you complain a lot? Fred? 517 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: And you have this lovely person waiting for you at home? 518 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 2: What the hell is wrong with you? But I had 519 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 2: used that wound, that pretty bitter betrayal. It made me 520 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 2: act as if that was like an eclipse and the 521 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 2: sun no longer was out. I had put this wound 522 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: up between me and the sun, and I said, well, 523 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: son's gone. I hate the world. My life isn't right. 524 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: The minute I took this wound away, the Sun's there 525 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 2: and it had always been there, but I hadn't seen it. 526 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 527 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: And that's what came to me. Oh okay, Fred, So you, 528 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 2: by your terrible handling of this very painful thing, you 529 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 2: ruined a couple of years of your life. Not them, 530 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: they did terrible things, and then you ruined your life. 531 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 2: That was the epiphany that I had. 532 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: That's the spice between life situation and life experience. And like, 533 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: sometimes our situation is great, but in the middle of 534 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: that situational circumstance, our self created experience is anything back. 535 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 2: Right, yep. And so the other definition that we have 536 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: of forgiveness, the simpler definition is making peace with the 537 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: word no. Yeah, that's our simpler definition. Like you're going 538 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 2: to get a lot of ways that life doesn't give 539 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 2: you what you want? Do you think you need? And 540 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: instead of holding grudge about it, you forgive it. You 541 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 2: forgive the fact that you get no. So the no 542 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 2: in that situation is I didn't get loyalty and connection. 543 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: But we I mean, you know, I've been doing this 544 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 2: for a long time, and I get bored if I 545 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 2: say the same thing, so I over time, I vow 546 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:19,479 Speaker 2: different things. But there's so much pain you would ask 547 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 2: me a half hour ago, And we're so attached to 548 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 2: getting what we want that we have a hard time 549 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 2: forgiving the world when it doesn't give it to us. 550 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: I've got a question, maybe my last question. What is 551 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: the question that you would want people to ask you 552 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: around this that they tend not to like. I feel 553 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: like you probably get asked a lot of the same stuff. 554 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: What is a great question that you wish somebody would 555 00:42:52,600 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: ask that might be more enlightening and more helpful. 556 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 2: Why in this short life when I'm not here for 557 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 2: that long on planet Earth. I spend so much of 558 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 2: this precious time that I have arguing and fighting about 559 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 2: what I didn't get, rather than spending more time saying 560 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 2: thank you for what I did get. That would be 561 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 2: the most pressing question to ask people. 562 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I could talk to you for hours, Doc, 563 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: So let me just give a quick plug for your book. 564 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: So Forgive for Good, a proven prescription for health and happiness, 565 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: Forgive for Love, the missing ingredients for a healthy and 566 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: lasting relationship, stress free for good, ten scientifically proven skills 567 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: for health and happiness? Is there another one? Or is 568 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: that the three? 569 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 2: I'm just about to publish early next year a book 570 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 2: called Forgive for Recovering. We've been teaching people in recovery 571 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 2: from addiction a lot about self forgiveness so they will 572 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 2: have fewer triggers. That's that's the latest research I'm doing, 573 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 2: So that would be it. The general book that sold 574 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 2: a lot of copies and help people all over the 575 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 2: world is Forgive for Good. That is as accessible a 576 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 2: result of research that exists in this field. And if 577 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 2: people want to look up any more about me, my 578 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 2: website is fred Luskin dot com and you know, there's 579 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 2: like YouTube videos all over the place. I'm a public 580 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 2: it's not hard to find me. And you know, forgiveness 581 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 2: is good for you. 582 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: It is forgive for good is on audible? I suppose 583 00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: it's not. 584 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 2: They never made a really a companion for it. Yeah, 585 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 2: I don't know why forgive for love is but for good. 586 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 2: Probably it was too long ago. 587 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: Yeah cool, Hei, Well say goodbye, but Fred, thank you 588 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: so much for chatting with me. You're a gem. I 589 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: appreciate you, and you didn't need to do this, but 590 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,720 Speaker 1: you graciously did. So thank you very much. 591 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. And I have to tell you part of 592 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 2: my appreciation over these thirty years for the fact that 593 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 2: so many people in this world who have sought out 594 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 2: the Stanford Forgiveness Project. I mean, yeah, we didn't. We 595 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 2: didn't start it with any illusions. I'm thankful enough that 596 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 2: we got some influence that I generally say yes to 597 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 2: people who are like nice and normal as a way 598 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 2: of paying something forward for all the publicity we got 599 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 2: when we started. So that's partly my answer back to you. 600 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 2: Thank you for asking absolute pleasure