1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Let's talk about women teachers deciding to abandon the profession 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: or at least out of public schools. The numbers have 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: more than doubled in the last five years, and that 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: is well above the total of number of male educators 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: leaving the schooling system. And a large role in driving 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: women away is disrespectful behavior and students having a misogynistic 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: attitude as well, and in this day and age, you'd 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: think that is absolutely unacceptable. Jenny Marie Gorman is say, 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: President Australian Education Union, good. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: Morning, Good morning, Matthew. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: That's unreal. How many numbers are we talking about here 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: in South Australia. 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: So the numbers that have been provided to me are 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: that one hundred and ninety six women and seventy seven 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: men in the last financial year left teaching for reasons 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: other than retirement, and that's up. That's over doubles since 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: five years ago. 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: So it's just kids are just getting out of control? 19 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Is that the experience? 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 2: I think that there's multiple reasons. I think that student 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: behavior is one of the reasons, but from our members, 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,279 Speaker 2: part of the reason that members are leaving, and also 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: the other thing I guess is that teachers are choosing 24 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: to not work full time as well. That's the other thing. 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: But part of it is around work life balance, around behavior, 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: around workloads, around caring responsibilities. Like it's multitude of reasons 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: that teachers are choosing to leave a profession. 28 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: What needs to be done to stamp it out? I mean, 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure all this education is taught in schools and 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: just I mean it should be taught at home. 31 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: Frankly, so I guess the behavior towards the boys, towards 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: the female teachers definitely should be taught at home. I 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 2: think society has certainly changed over the last number of years, 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: and that behaviors are accepted that didn't used to be accepted, 35 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: and that the teaching the female teachers are the ones 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: that are on the end of it. We've been told 37 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: by our new educators, so people within the first three 38 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: years of teaching, that fifty percent of them don't see 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: themselves teaching within five years. There is a real crisis 40 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: of people leaving the teaching profession. With many different reasons 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: why this is happening, but one of them is the 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: misogyny stic behavior of the boys. 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: So some of the other reasons, I mean, dealing with parents, 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: the red tape. The bureaucracy is at all of that. 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: It is all of that chasing up attendants doing paperwork 46 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: for the departments or for their school that perhaps you know, 47 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: they can't see the reason for doing it. Start a 48 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: collection lots and lots of different reasons. And you know, 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 2: teachers become teachers because they want to teach. That is 50 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: their passion. It is a you know, a vocation, not 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: just a job. And when you can see people drowning 52 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: in a whole lot of other jobs around the school 53 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: that they're doing, that is putting young teachers off. But 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: also teachers that are close to retiring are choosing to 55 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: leave earlier than that. Then they might or reduce their 56 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 2: fraction of time so instead of words in full time, 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: they might go down to three days or four days 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: or whatever because that's their way of managing their workload. 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean you must have seasoned teachers who 60 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: would look at data collection as just being pointless, as 61 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: you say, why do we have to do this? And 62 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: perhaps refusing I mean, are they penalized if they refuse 63 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: to do it because they see it as a waste 64 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: of time. 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: It's not really an option not to do it, And 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: I think that I am not sure people would actually 67 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: point blank refuse to do it. I think that what 68 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: happens is this other things missed out. 69 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So is it any different public to 70 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: private schools? I mean, this week we've seen the allegations 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: around Pembroke and kids there and just appalling the misogyny 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: that has been alleged. Is it any different public deprivate schools? 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: Numbers of teachers leaving. 74 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: I'm not able to comment on that, sorry, Matthew, because 75 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm from the Public school Education Teachers Teachers Union, so 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: I don't exactly know. You'd need to speak to somebody 77 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: from the Independent Education Union about that. 78 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: I doubt it would be though. I mean, especially when 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: you consider examples over the last say decade, and it 80 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: seems to be a mix of both schools where kids 81 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: have been caught out being completely inappropriate. 82 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: I would my thoughts would be it would be the 83 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 2: same for both, but I wouldn't thinksolutely sure. I think 84 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: that as a public school union and looking at public schools, 85 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: we're very concerned about what's going in in public schools, 86 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: but that we need everyone to stay in teaching, that 87 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: it starts teaching because we actually have a big crisis 88 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: that we don't have enough teachers as there is, and 89 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: we really need to be supporting those teachers that are 90 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: in the profession to stay there, not feel like they 91 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: need to leave or reduce their time teaching, to just 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: be able to manage their life. 93 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: Because you know, if you're a young person and you're 94 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: choosing a career, and for many people, male or female, 95 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: you'd go through school, perhaps influenced by a good teacher, 96 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: and you'd think, I'd want to be like this person 97 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: and impart knowledge, and you put yourself through university to 98 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: study the degree and skill up and all of that. 99 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: You'd be doing it with a fair degree of pride 100 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: and hope and aspiration and all of that. And you 101 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: get to the point then you're in the classroom and 102 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: you're treated like dirt by the kids you're trying to educate. 103 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: It must be just crushing. 104 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: It is. And also I think that some young people 105 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: now are not probably able to well young teachers are 106 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: saying enough and that's fantastic because actually I think the 107 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: people that are of older generations tend to put up 108 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: with a lot more than what they should have over 109 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: the years, and now we're at this situation, but our 110 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: members are telling us that they really need support in 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: the classroom to help us with the you know, with 112 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: the behaviors, but also that it's a wider societal problem 113 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: some of the behaviors that we're seeing. And it's not 114 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: just you know, it's not a new thing. This has 115 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 2: been coming for a long time. I think with the 116 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: rise of that Andrew Tates misogyny, you know, new thing 117 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: or not new thing, but thin that's happening. I think 118 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: that certainly giving boys feeling like they've got more permission 119 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: to be able to treat their teachers in a way 120 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: that's completely inappropriate and completely degrading. And especially if you're 121 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: a young teacher that's just going into a high school, 122 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: you might only be five years older, six years older 123 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: than some of those students who are treating you like that. 124 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, just a Paul, How real is the Andrew take thing. 125 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: I've read a fair bit about him and the purported 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: influence he has on young young males, boys in schools 127 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: and wherever they might be. But we're talking about teenagers 128 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: essentially twelve and olde older pretty much. Is it a 129 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: real big problem? Do you think it's purported to be 130 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: a big influence on them. You think it's as bad as. 131 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: People say, Yes, definitely, definitely, And I think with people 132 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: having phones and internet access twenty four to seven, there's 133 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: lots of young boys spending their time on YouTube and 134 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: other other ways of getting information. And it definitely is 135 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: something that we have had, probably this year, we've had 136 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: a massive rise on members telling us about the behaviors 137 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: that they are now having from the boys in their schools, 138 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: including you know, little things from just disrespectful behavior, and 139 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: then it becomes a lot more targeted. 140 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awful. And so we're going to have a 141 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: real teaching crisis in a few years, I dare say, 142 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: from what. 143 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: You've been we're already in We're already in there, we 144 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: already have a teaching classis the number of the number 145 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: of schools around South Australia that aren't able to get 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: enough teachers to fill their jobs. And it's something that 147 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: we've been working with the Education Department and our members 148 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: to try and work out how to solve this. But 149 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: the problem is is that if you are a young 150 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: person going into a school as a you know, for 151 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: your teaching prac and you see these behaviors before you've 152 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: even finished your degree. It would be you know, why 153 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: would you finish for a start. It's concerning that we've 154 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 2: got people that have got lots of debt from being 155 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: through a teaching degree, part of a teaching degree, or 156 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: a whole teaching degree, not teaching because it's not cheap 157 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 2: to do a degree at union anymore. And also we 158 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: have a problem with women, especially who are reducing their 159 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: fraction of time, especially at an age that they should 160 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: be trying to get money into their super So at 161 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: the other end, we've got people who are not finishing 162 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: working their working life with enough super in their balance 163 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: to be able to live a nice life when they 164 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: finish teaching. 165 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: Yes, unbelievable. Jenny Marie, thank you for your time this morning. 166 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: Really appreciate that. And gee, that's really eye opening some 167 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: of the things you've said. 168 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Matti. 169 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: Jenny Marie Gorman. There's a president Australian Education Union.