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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome to Big Business, the

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Speaker 1: place where business is far from boring. And today I'm

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Speaker 1: recording on a wobbical land. Now I somehow manage to

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Speaker 1: build an empire from the garage underneath my house, and

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Speaker 1: I'm here to share it all with you, from the wins,

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Speaker 1: the mistakes, the challenging times and the funny moments in between. So,

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Speaker 1: whether you're in business already, perhaps you're not in the

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Speaker 1: game at all, Maybe you're just looking for some inspo,

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Speaker 1: or you simply just want to hear the tea, this

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Speaker 1: is the podcast for you. My guest today is Jamila Risby,

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Speaker 1: a powerhouse for gender equality and inclusion in Australia. She's

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Speaker 1: the Deputy managing director of Future Women, a best selling author,

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Speaker 1: and a leading voice pushing for workplaces that truly work

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Speaker 1: for women. Jamila's story from advising government to overcoming serious

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Speaker 1: health challenges is proof that advocacy, courage and empathy can

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Speaker 1: drive real change.

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Speaker 2: Jamila, Welcome to Big Business.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have

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Speaker 3: you here.

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Speaker 1: Now. I feel like when I look at myself, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've done a lot of things and I've

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Speaker 1: achieved a lot of things, but then reading up on

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Speaker 1: you and everything that you're doing and everything that you've done,

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Speaker 1: I am astounded.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's really nice. Thank you. I am sure that's

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Speaker 3: not true, but I forget it.

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Speaker 1: So, for anyone not familiar with you and your story

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Speaker 1: and what it is that you are, what it is

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Speaker 1: that you do, can you give us a quick elevator pitch?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure. So.

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Speaker 5: I'm the deputy managing director at an organization called Future Women.

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Speaker 5: In short, we help women to get jobs and then

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Speaker 5: build their careers. So we do a lot of work

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Speaker 5: with women who have lost connection with the paid work

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Speaker 5: for us, helping them back into work, and then also

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Speaker 5: work with women who are trying to advance their careers

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Speaker 5: and coming up against blockers like gender pay gaps and

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Speaker 5: disparities of other kinds. And that's my main gig. I

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Speaker 5: do a little bit of writing a bit of podcasting

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Speaker 5: on the side as well. Sound like me doing a

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Speaker 5: little bit of writing, a little bit of podcasting everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely love it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm so excited to chat with you today because

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Speaker 1: I feel, even for myself, I feel as if though

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Speaker 1: there's so much that I can learn from someone like you.

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Speaker 1: Obviously with Fate, where obviously a female founded company, and

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Speaker 1: we employ, you know.

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Speaker 2: Majority women in our workplace.

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Speaker 1: So I'm even really excited just for my own personal

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Speaker 1: business to learn from you. So obviously you've written extensively

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Speaker 1: about women in the workplace. What do you see as

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Speaker 1: the biggest barriers that are still holding women back from

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Speaker 1: leadership roles?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Mate, where do I start? Look?

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Speaker 5: I think we've gotten to a place, which is a

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Speaker 5: really nice place to be, where the majority of the

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Speaker 5: most visible barriers to women's equality have kind of disappeared.

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Speaker 5: We've dealt with the really big headline stuff right particularly

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Speaker 5: over the last fifty sixty years, there's been a I

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Speaker 5: imagine my life today would be complete com lately unrecognizable

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Speaker 5: to one of my great grandparents. Yes, having said that,

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Speaker 5: there are still a bunch of barriers that exist, and

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Speaker 5: some of which are becoming more complicated and are quite insidious,

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Speaker 5: and the fact that you can't necessarily see them in

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Speaker 5: such an obvious way can actually make them harder to

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Speaker 5: break down. So we definitely still have a gender pay

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Speaker 5: gap in this country, and that gender pay gap has

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Speaker 5: moved a little bit in the last year or two

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Speaker 5: but not significantly, and that gender pay gap sits around

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Speaker 5: thirteen percent, but once you're adding things like bonuses and

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Speaker 5: all the non financial benefits that come with work, the

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Speaker 5: gap almost doubles, and so the real gap is quite

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Speaker 5: considerable still, and we see that when we see women

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Speaker 5: retire still with around forty five percent forty percent less

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Speaker 5: superannuation than men. And that's because of what's still left

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Speaker 5: over from a systemic perspective, right. You know, we built

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Speaker 5: all these system in a society that were assuming that

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Speaker 5: women would get married to a bloke and that that

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Speaker 5: man would take care of them for the rest of

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Speaker 5: their life, for whenever they weren't working.

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Speaker 3: And that is all well and good if that is

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Speaker 3: what is happening, but it's not what's happening most times.

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Speaker 2: It's not.

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Speaker 5: I don't have many mates who life look like that,

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Speaker 5: where you got married and then you settled down, and

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Speaker 5: then you had some kids and you never went back

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Speaker 5: to work again, and you retired happily with your partner

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Speaker 5: to look after you at the other end. Right, But

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Speaker 5: that's how they built the superannuation system. Because that system

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Speaker 5: was built when I was like before I was in

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Speaker 5: primary school. So it's just completely out of step with

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Speaker 5: with what our lives look like today. So I think

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Speaker 5: that's just one example, but I think a lot of

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Speaker 5: the barriers that women are facing today in the workplace,

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Speaker 5: in their careers in terms of equality, including at home,

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Speaker 5: a lot of them are those more hidden barriers that

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Speaker 5: are systemic, but at the same time, they're the ones

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Speaker 5: that when you're fighting with your crazy uncle at Christmas,

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Speaker 5: that it's easy to get kind of like wrapped up

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Speaker 5: with him, going nah, I say, the heaps of women

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Speaker 5: at work and they are earning lots of money.

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Speaker 3: What's wrong with you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to think about, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I guess I myself personally, like don't really face these

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Speaker 1: kind of thoughts in my day to day in my

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Speaker 1: business because we are like a women predominant company, But

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Speaker 1: then when you actually think about the bigger picture, like

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Speaker 1: it's so it's so apparent, and like, speaking personally, I

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Speaker 1: was even chatting with my sister and she's talking about

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Speaker 1: you know, like oh, maybe having kids and like going

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Speaker 1: off work and all this kind of stuff. And I

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Speaker 1: was talking with her about like her partner supporting her

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Speaker 1: and stuff, and it's one of those things that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: back in the day, it was you know, the women

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Speaker 1: don't work and they raise the kids, and like.

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Speaker 2: The man is the support.

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Speaker 1: And even when my sister was like talking to me

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Speaker 1: about this idea, I was like thinking of her future

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking, like, of course, like you and

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Speaker 1: your partner have been together for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: like ten years, and you're gonna be fine and happy,

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Speaker 1: but you still have that like lingering thought of like

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Speaker 1: the future future, because you never know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 5: And unpaid care of all kinds is probably still the

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Speaker 5: biggest driver of that gender pay gap and that income

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Speaker 5: gap over a lifetime. Not just care for kids as well,

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Speaker 5: but care for elderly parents, care for people in your

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Speaker 5: families with disability, care for people who might be unwell,

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Speaker 5: And that's still the biggest driver. And women are doing

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Speaker 5: the vast majority of that unpaid care work.

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Speaker 1: How would you how do you think that women led

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Speaker 1: businesses like Fate can model new ways of working, of

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Speaker 1: working that bigger corporations often struggle with Because I feel

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Speaker 1: like being I guess like a smaller I'm not a

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Speaker 1: smaller business, but you know I'm the CEO and founder

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Speaker 1: and I'm hands on deck every day kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like that's an advantage in a way

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Speaker 1: versus a huge corporation that I am this like solo

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Speaker 1: owned and founded business. What advice would you have to

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Speaker 1: me or people similar to me where they do have

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Speaker 1: control over the way they run their work places, and like,

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Speaker 1: what are some ways that we can model I guess

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Speaker 1: new ways rather than old school ways.

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Speaker 5: Look, I think, and I've been in a not dissimilar

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Speaker 5: position a couple of times in my life. I was

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Speaker 5: part of Mama Mia in the very early days, helping

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Speaker 5: me a freedman build that business, back when there were like,

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Speaker 5: you know, ten or eleven of us sitting in this

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Speaker 5: tiny one room office in Sydney. And you know, I

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Speaker 5: think they're sort of one hundred and forty staff or

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Speaker 5: more now and future women. Similarly, I joined when there

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Speaker 5: were five of us at the beginning, and there's now

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Speaker 5: around sixty of us on the team. So I've sort

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Speaker 5: of watched what it looks like when you grow from

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Speaker 5: a small to a medium business. And I think with

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Speaker 5: any small sized business, you know, regardless of gender or context,

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Speaker 5: you do, you just have more flexibility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it takes an advantage in a way.

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Speaker 5: Rogers, Yeah, you're hiring a person, and when you've got

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Speaker 5: a big corporation, you don't have the same freedom to

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Speaker 5: do that. You're like, this is the job that has

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Speaker 5: to get done, and I need someone to come in

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Speaker 5: and slot in here. And the pay is predetermined and

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Speaker 5: the role title is predetermined, and the parameters are predetermined.

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Speaker 5: But when you're little, you can be nimble, and you

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Speaker 5: can meet someone who says, oh, I can do a

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Speaker 5: bit of that, but I can also do a bit

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Speaker 5: of this, and you've got that flexibility to move people around.

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Speaker 5: And I think being able to hold onto that flexible

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Speaker 5: mindset is essential, I would argue for everybody, but particularly

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Speaker 5: for women in the workplace, because women are more likely

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Speaker 5: to be juggling a whole bunch of other stuff outside

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Speaker 5: of outside of the work that isn't necessarily flexible. So

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Speaker 5: if you can be a workplace that is flexible, you

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Speaker 5: will earn so much more loyalty. You will earn such

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Speaker 5: hard work from those women if you are willing to

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Speaker 5: kind of gift that flexibility. I think the other thing

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Speaker 5: for me is I've watched kind of in corporate Australia

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Speaker 5: this sort of evolution over the last fifteen years twenty

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Speaker 5: years in particular, where there's a policy for everything, right,

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Speaker 5: It's like, we've got a policy that makes sure that

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Speaker 5: we're supporting unpaid cares in the workplace, And we've got

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Speaker 5: a policy here that make sure that we're supporting someone

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Speaker 5: who's neurodivergent to be able to access modifications to their working.

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Speaker 3: Style to make it work for them.

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Speaker 5: And we've got a policy over here, and I there's

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Speaker 5: part of me that loves it because we're starting to

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Speaker 5: think about the needs of more people. We're trying to

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Speaker 5: be more flexible and inclusive, and there's part of me

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Speaker 5: that just thinks, don't all of these policies come down

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Speaker 5: to the same thing, which is actually just listening to

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Speaker 5: people and making it possible for them to tell us

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Speaker 5: what they need.

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Speaker 3: At work, regardless of the reason.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's just human at the end of the day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think in a smaller organization you have

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Speaker 5: the ability to do that. We do this thing at

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Speaker 5: FW which we shamelessly nicked off one of our team

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Speaker 5: members former workplaces, which I love, which is called the

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Speaker 5: user Guide. So when someone comes to work for us,

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Speaker 5: we have a set of about it's probably a dozen

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Speaker 5: or so questions. They don't have to answer them all.

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Speaker 5: Most people answer seven or eight and they're some question

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Speaker 5: on that simply ask you about you and what you

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Speaker 5: need to succeed and be successful at work. And they

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Speaker 5: don't presuppose any information around disability or cultural background.

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Speaker 3: Or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 5: They just ask you some questions about what you need

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Speaker 5: and take seriously what is going to work for you.

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Speaker 5: And it means that we can then make some modifications

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Speaker 5: to suit that person. Maybe they need to start a

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Speaker 5: little bit later on a Thursday than they normally would

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Speaker 5: and they can't be in this particular meeting, or we

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Speaker 5: need to make sure that they break up their day

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Speaker 5: on this particular day because they've got caring responsibilities or

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Speaker 5: whatever it is. And I think as a result, because

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Speaker 5: we've got those user guides, there's much more understanding. If

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Speaker 5: there's someone who when they're wearing headphones, really means that's

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Speaker 5: their signal of like, I do need you all to

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Speaker 5: leave me alone. I need some time just with me

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Speaker 5: in my head to get this done. But for me,

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Speaker 5: I think it's more about empathy and understanding at a

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Speaker 5: general level rather than trying to.

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Speaker 2: Make every policy and everything's corperate.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the biggest things that I've

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Speaker 1: learned about leadership as well, is leadership isn't a bet

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Speaker 1: just taking people and putting them all in the same

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Speaker 1: box and like this is their title and this is

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Speaker 1: their job. Like it's about understanding that every single person

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Speaker 1: must be managed differently, Whereas I think maybe like a

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Speaker 1: lot of old school mindsets from you know, a generation

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Speaker 1: or to a go it's like, when you're a manager,

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Speaker 1: this is my management style, and I manage my whole

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Speaker 1: team the same. But if there's one thing that I've

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Speaker 1: learned over the years, it's sure you can be a

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Speaker 1: great leader and a great manager. And let's say you've

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Speaker 1: got a team of people underneath you. But then it's

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Speaker 1: up to you as a leader to individually like how

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Speaker 1: you said, with you you have your team, like fill

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Speaker 1: out that questionnaire, like little things about you. I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to understand each team member and how they

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Speaker 1: would like to be managed, what they do like, what

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Speaker 1: they don't like. It's not just a matter of saying

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Speaker 1: I'm the manager and everyone listened to me. It's like,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you, how can I best manage you

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Speaker 1: to suit like your needs and what it is you

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Speaker 1: need from me as your leader, which I think like

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Speaker 1: a lot of old school people probably don't have that mindset.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of leadership and women, a lot of women feel

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Speaker 1: like they have to work twice as hard to be

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Speaker 1: taken seriously. Do you think that perception is changing or

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Speaker 1: is it still a reality in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I think it's a reality for a lot of women,

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Speaker 5: that's for sure. I think you know, workplaces don't change

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Speaker 5: all at once, right, It's not like all our workplaces

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Speaker 5: advance at the same rate as one big behemoth. I

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Speaker 5: think some industries and some areas are moving faster than others.

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Speaker 5: There are more and more women we know who are

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Speaker 5: starting their own businesses, who are working as freelancers, who

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Speaker 5: are creating a space where they get to dictate the

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Speaker 5: terms and they get to make decisions for themselves. And

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Speaker 5: we know that there are a lot of female led

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Speaker 5: organizations now where again you're starting to see a culture change.

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Speaker 5: And then there's traditionally male dominated spaces that are really

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Speaker 5: stagnant and not moving at all, right, where we're not

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Speaker 5: seeing the same shifts and sometimes not even for want

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Speaker 5: of trying. You know, I've done a bit of work

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Speaker 5: with the construction industry and the tech industry in particular

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Speaker 5: through what I do at Future Women, and we're really

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Speaker 5: trying to support them to hire more women, support those women,

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Speaker 5: be inclusive, make sure that they're able to grow the

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Speaker 5: careers of those women so they stay in the industry

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Speaker 5: for the long term, because in the end, that is

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Speaker 5: what forces an industry to change. If you've got more

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Speaker 5: women in the place, it will start to shift. And

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Speaker 5: you know, it's that I think sometimes we you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm always part of my job is always trying to

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Speaker 5: work with executives and prove to them the benefits of

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Speaker 5: having gender equal teams and having diverse teams. And a

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Speaker 5: lot of the time, I think, especially when you're dealing

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Speaker 5: with male executives, you have these guys who get a

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Speaker 5: bit defensive and I don't know, like, are you trying

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Speaker 5: to say that that's better than what men do?

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, I'm not.

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Speaker 2: I try to make it equal here.

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Speaker 5: What I'm trying to say is that you want a

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Speaker 5: diversity of experiences and backgrounds at the table, and if

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Speaker 5: you all think the same way and act the same

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Speaker 5: way and have a similar life experience. You're just not

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Speaker 5: going to be as smart in thinking about who your

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Speaker 5: customer is and who your employees are and what you

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Speaker 5: trying to do. What you want is a diversity within

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Speaker 5: that group, and a diversity in every sense of the word,

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Speaker 5: because diversity of experience is going to mean that you've

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Speaker 5: got information and knowledge being shared around that boardroom table

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Speaker 5: or in that executive team that you wouldn't get.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: I think for me personally, one of the like something

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Speaker 1: that stands out to me as we're having this conversation

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Speaker 1: is my partner AJ. He runs Fate with me, but

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Speaker 1: prior to us being together, he was a tradee and

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Speaker 1: just worked as an electrician and he worked in the

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Speaker 1: minds and you know, in male dominated areas. I guess

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Speaker 1: like we're just all very like, oh yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: how you go on mate, and.

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Speaker 2: Like that's kind of what work is like.

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Speaker 1: And I think what's been really interesting for him to

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Speaker 1: see is the way that stuff is carried out in

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Speaker 1: a workplace like Fate where it's women dominated versus when

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Speaker 1: he was on the job site and he's you know,

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Speaker 1: just pointed out differences of like how that would have

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Speaker 1: played out if it was when he was in the

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Speaker 1: minds on the site compared to like all of us

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Speaker 1: sitting aroun having a conversation in the office. So it's

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Speaker 1: just really a really interesting contrast. And it just made

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Speaker 1: me think of that when you were talking. When companies

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Speaker 1: say that they want gender equality, what does that actually

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Speaker 1: look like in practice beyond just hiring more women.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's always one of the joyful things that we

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Speaker 5: get to do at FW is go in and give

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Speaker 5: a bunch of advice and help and training to organizations

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Speaker 5: who do want to achieve gender equality or want to

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Speaker 5: close their pay gap. And often equality gets to a

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Speaker 5: conversation about pay pretty quickly. And I cannot tell you

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Speaker 5: the number of times I've sat down with an executive

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Speaker 5: team that is usually mostly men and they ask you

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Speaker 5: how to close their gender pay gap. Oh, now, you

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Speaker 5: go like, I will give you this for free, Like

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Speaker 5: I will not even charge you for this advice. You

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Speaker 5: pay the women more. And then they look at you

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Speaker 5: and they're like, and if we didn't.

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Speaker 2: Do that, oh no, that's the essential.

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Speaker 5: And look, there are strategies you can take to improve

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Speaker 5: pay equity over time one hundred percent. But the simplest

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Speaker 5: thing to do would be just to pay all the

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Speaker 5: women more. Right now, that is a simplistic answer. It's

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Speaker 5: not possible in most organizations because they do have hierarchies

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Speaker 5: and they've valued different roles in different ways. But I

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Speaker 5: think what we forget in those circumstances is that the

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Speaker 5: reason that we pay a finance executive four hundred thousand

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Speaker 5: dollars a year and we pay a school teacher eighty

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Speaker 5: five thousand dollars a year has nothing to do with

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Speaker 5: how hard those jobs are. It has nothing to do

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Speaker 5: with the skill involved in those jobs. It has nothing

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Speaker 5: to do with how important those jobs are. It's based

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Speaker 5: on a whole lot of other factors of how those

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Speaker 5: industries have evolved over time, and the.

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Speaker 3: Gendered stuff is a big part of that.

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Speaker 5: We know that in male dominated industries the pay is

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Speaker 5: generally higher than in female dominated industries, and yet we

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Speaker 5: also know that women who work in male dominated industries

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Speaker 5: are paid less and men who work in email dominated.

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Speaker 3: And studs are paid more.

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Speaker 5: So this stuff is really deeply entrenched, and it's hard

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Speaker 5: to undo it because a lot of it comes down

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Speaker 5: to these little assumptions that we have in our heads

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Speaker 5: about what work is important and also what work deserves pay.

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Speaker 5: So I remember a few years ago, I won't name

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Speaker 5: the politician, but a few years ago in the media,

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Speaker 5: there was a conversation around early childhood educators and the

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Speaker 5: fact that we don't have enough early childhood teachers in

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Speaker 5: this country, and there was a conversation about pay and

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Speaker 5: if you paid early childhood educators more, maybe we'd have

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Speaker 5: more of them, right, more people would be interested in which.

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Speaker 1: Is because when I was in school, I remember people

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Speaker 1: leaving school to become like an early childhood educator was

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Speaker 1: like one of the most popular things to do. And

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Speaker 1: it's just so funny, like thinking back, like I knew

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Speaker 1: so many of my friends that were leaving school to

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Speaker 1: go and do that.

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Speaker 2: But then there's such a shortage.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think you know, there's been an increasing

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Speaker 5: demand for childcare as more women have gone into the workforce, right,

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Speaker 5: so you would I remember this politician at this moment,

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Speaker 5: and he was like, well, yeah, you know, obviously we've

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Speaker 5: got to work on pay, but we also have to

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Speaker 5: remember that you don't go into the early childhood education

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Speaker 5: industry to get rich.

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Speaker 3: You go into it because you do it for love.

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Speaker 5: I've never been so angry, Like it was like yeah, sure, okay,

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Speaker 5: But does the fact that you love what you do

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Speaker 5: and what you do has a social good mean that

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Speaker 5: we don't pay you.

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Speaker 3: Properly for it?

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Speaker 5: Like there's so many assumptions in there, and the assumption,

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Speaker 5: I think at the very core of it, if you

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Speaker 5: strip it back, is that caring work. And this is

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Speaker 5: also education, but caring work, whether it's for people with disabilities,

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Speaker 5: whether it's for people who are unwell, nurses are underpaid,

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Speaker 5: whether it's for the elderly, whether it's for little children.

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Speaker 5: We still think of that as something that women should

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Speaker 5: do for free. And so there's sort of this like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 5: we're paying you, but like you know, you're doing it

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Speaker 5: because you.

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Speaker 2: Know, because you love it, because you love looking after

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Speaker 2: people's kids.

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Speaker 3: Like are you kidding me?

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Speaker 5: Like I'm sure there's a whole bunch of bankers who

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Speaker 5: don't love what they're doing, but I.

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Speaker 3: Don't really know if it's why we're paying them a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of money to.

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Speaker 1: Do it exactly right, It's just absolutely crazy. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to talk about supporting women at work. Many women are

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Speaker 1: juggling business with motherhood and careers or caring responsibilities. What

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Speaker 1: are the most effective policies that you've personally seen that

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Speaker 1: actually help women to stay in the workforce.

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Speaker 5: The single best thing we can do to support women

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Speaker 5: to be able to move in and out of the

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Speaker 5: workforce around caring for other people but do it in

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Speaker 5: a way that doesn't hurt them financially, is to support

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Speaker 5: men to do the same thing. Like That's the single

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Speaker 5: biggest thing we can do. And I always worry when

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Speaker 5: we have gender equality conversations that aren't sufficiently focused on

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Speaker 5: men and supporting men. I think there has to be

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Speaker 5: a realization that gender stereotypes and expectations about.

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Speaker 3: What men should be and do and what women should

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Speaker 3: be and do.

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Speaker 5: Stereotypes are bad for everybody. Stereotypes hurt everybody. And you

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Speaker 5: won't meet many blokes who certainly of your age or mind,

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Speaker 5: who won't tell you that there have been some pressures

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Speaker 5: on them in their life and expectations that have been

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Speaker 5: tough for them that are a gendered right. Expectations about

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Speaker 5: being the breadwinner, expectations about holding emotions back, expectations about

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Speaker 5: what you need to do for your family and what

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Speaker 5: you need to deliver. I think the joyful thing is

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Speaker 5: we are seeing more men who want to be really

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Speaker 5: active and engaged parents.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to miss out on that.

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Speaker 5: And I've got a dad who was an incredible father

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Speaker 5: and worked really hard and was absolutely the majority in

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Speaker 5: our household growing up. He was the reason that, you know,

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Speaker 5: our family was able to get along most of the time.

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Speaker 5: But I watch him now and he spends way more

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Speaker 5: time with my little nephew than he ever spent with

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Speaker 5: my sister and I and that is a heartbreaking reality,

439
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Speaker 5: Like that is not fair, Like he should have We

440
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Speaker 5: should have found a way for him to get that

441
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 5: time when his kids were young. So I think we

442
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 5: have not done the right thing by women in workplaces,

443
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 5: and that has really awful economic consequences. And we have

444
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 5: not done the right thing by men outside of workplaces,

445
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,439
Speaker 5: and that has really awful emotional consequences, I think. And

446
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 5: we're really making some shifts now, which is exciting. But

447
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 5: for me, when we're thinking about this policy space, it's

448
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 5: really important to take a holistic, gendered view rather than

449
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 5: just thinking about women. So yeah, my first one is

450
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 5: pay parental leave regardless of who is in your workplace right,

451
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 5: make sure that there is parental leave opportunities available for

452
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 5: people in your workplace, regardless of gender, and where you

453
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 5: can incentivize them to take those opportunities, because men are

454
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 5: actually less likely to take the opportunity even if it's there.

455
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 5: Even if it's there, they're less likely to take it.

456
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 5: The new changes that mean that we pay superannuation on

457
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 5: parental leave that have happened through the Federal Parliament are

458
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 5: very exciting, something I've cared about a lot. And then

459
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 5: I think the next one for me would be role

460
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 5: modeling for particularly for senior people in organizations, particularly for

461
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 5: senior men, giving people permission, because I do think there

462
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 5: are a lot of blokes who feel like, oh yeah,

463
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 5: they say anyone could take that leave, but they're gunned

464
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 5: they don't mean it right, Whereas actually we want men

465
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 5: to be taking pai pernal leave. We want men to

466
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 5: be ducking out at three pm because there's a concert

467
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 5: at school in the assembly and they want to catch

468
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 5: it before three point thirty, right, we want to be

469
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 5: able to support that as well, and I think the

470
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 5: only way you enable that new give permission for that

471
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 5: to happen is by senior men showing that that's possible

472
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 5: and that's permissible. And the more we do that, the

473
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 5: more of the load it starts to take off women,

474
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 5: and it makes it easier for those women to come back.

475
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: On the opposite side to that, For women listening who

476
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: might not own a business but their employees of a company,

477
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 1: what are small ways that they can advocate for themselves

478
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: and other women at work.

479
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.

480
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 5: That's a really great question, and I think sometimes it's

481
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 5: difficult for us because we're in our little world and

482
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 5: when you get told oh, the reason that you're not

483
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 5: getting paid more, or the reason that this is difficult

484
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 5: is because of this giant structural problem that's not going

485
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 5: to get fixed anytime soon. That can also feel really

486
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 5: defeating because it's just you and you'd like to be

487
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 5: paid more because you're working really hard, and you do

488
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 5: need to advocate for yourself. So I think the first

489
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 5: thing is just to be really prepared and recognize that

490
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 5: you are working in a system where things can be

491
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 5: really challenging for women, and there's some biases that might

492
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 5: work against you in a number of ways. I think

493
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 5: being aware of them and being ready to combat them

494
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 5: in the way you approach things is really smart. One

495
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 5: of the things that I've noticed, particularly around things like

496
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 5: asking for a promotion or asking for a pay rise,

497
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 5: is that women all often have the view that working

498
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 5: as hard as they possibly can is going to be

499
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 5: the solution to the next opportunity. There's this sort of like,

500
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 5: put your head down, work really hard, and then some

501
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 5: one day someone's going to come along and put a

502
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 5: tiara on your head and go, you you're amazing, right, And

503
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 5: actually they don't. They just start taking it for granted

504
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 5: that you work like that. I think men are socialized

505
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 5: to be better at demonstrating the work that they put in,

506
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 5: not just doing it. So I think being ready to

507
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 5: tell the story of the impact that you're having, and

508
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 5: not just how hard you're working, but the impact that

509
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 5: you're having.

510
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: Because actually, if.

511
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 5: You work really, really, really hard but you don't produce anything,

512
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 5: I mean, I appreciate you working hard, but that's not

513
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 5: very helpful to me. If I run that company, right,

514
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 5: I need you to be productive. I need you to

515
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 5: be productive in that time. So I think my advice

516
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 5: would be track your impact, Like when someone sends you

517
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 5: an email and says, oh, you were remarkable in that

518
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 5: just have a folder where you save it.

519
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: Right, we call it our winds folder.

520
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: It work.

521
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: Just shark it in the winds folder, so.

522
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 5: That when you get to the point where you're going

523
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 5: to have a conversation about a pay rise or a

524
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 5: promotion or the next opportunity, you've got a whole folder

525
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 5: of good stuff that you've done, because otherwise we forget.

526
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 5: I would really recommend timing your carefully. I think I've

527
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 5: noticed in the past employees of all genders waiting to

528
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 5: the last to the point where they're grumpy, right, rather

529
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 5: than having a conversation about.

530
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: The next opportunity, like they wait and wait, they wait.

531
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: On it, and they've built up resentment that no one's

532
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: like brought up the conversation.

533
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 5: Huh, And so they can't you come in for the

534
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 5: pay negotiation or whatever, and you're already pissed, and that

535
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 5: usually is not going to put you in a position

536
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 5: where you're going to negotiate well, right, So go earlier

537
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 5: if you if you need to. Don't let yourself get

538
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: to that to that point where you feel resentful, because

539
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 5: it's hard to come back from that. And then also

540
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 5: think about your timing from the perspective of your boss like,

541
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 5: don't ask at five pm on a Friday.

542
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: Because boss is a focused on the weekend.

543
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 5: Don't ask right at the point where you know that

544
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 5: there's a financial strain on the company, or you know

545
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 5: that you're waiting for a big opportunity to come off

546
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 5: for you know, think about what your what your boss

547
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 5: is going on. Use some of those managing up tactics

548
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 5: as well.

549
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really important to, I guess, highlight

550
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: the importance of like using your voice and speaking up

551
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: for yourself in the workplace, because, like you said, like

552
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: it's one thing to put your head down and work

553
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: really hard and hope that someone will notice that. And

554
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: of course people will notice that, but I think it's

555
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: really important for employees to understand like the power of

556
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: using your voice and making yourself known and highlighting your

557
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: achievements to make those right people aware of that rather

558
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: than just heads down, work and hard and waiting for

559
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: someone to come along and be like, hey, we noticed,

560
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: you know. Because there's so much obviously to business, and

561
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: like especially myself as a founder, like we're concentrating on

562
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: a million different people and a million different things all

563
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: at once. And this that finances stock, this that and

564
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: the other that you know, if someone's just got their

565
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: head down there working really hard, we might miss that moment.

566
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: So I think like communicating your achievements and your successes

567
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: to those right people on your team, whether it's your manager,

568
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: your leader, or the founder, I think it can go

569
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: a really long way.

570
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: So I really love that point.

571
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 5: It drives for so long to figure out how you

572
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 5: articulate who that really valuable and play is, particularly in

573
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: that scale up, startup sort of environment, right, And I

574
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 5: do think it's as simple as just be the person

575
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 5: who can take care of it, Like be the person

576
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 5: who can say, you know what, I think I can

577
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 5: just take care of that for you.

578
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: Like I cannot tell you.

579
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 5: I'm sure you've had the same experience, Like whenever we've

580
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 5: got a team member who I know I can give

581
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 5: an out of the box project to and it will

582
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 5: just get done and it will get done well. And

583
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 5: they will shout if they need more direction or there's

584
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 5: a they hit a roadblock, but I literally can take

585
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 5: it out of my brain because I know it's being

586
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 5: taken care of. Like those people are worth their weight

587
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 5: in gold.

588
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more onto the topic of men in

589
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: the workforce. What do you think the role of men

590
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: is pushing gender equality forward, especially in workplaces that are

591
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: already female heavy.

592
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: It's huge.

593
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 5: We have a program that we run through FW or

594
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 5: Future Women called change Makers, which is a program for

595
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 5: men and we developed it. It's for male leaders in organizations,

596
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 5: not necessarily leaders with a position of leadership, but we

597
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 5: ask organizations, who are the men who influences who influenced

598
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 5: the others? Who are the blokes in your organization that

599
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 5: the other ones admire and look to. And our theory

600
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 5: of change has been if we can support those men

601
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 5: to be real champions of gender equality and have knowledge

602
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 5: and have ideas and have actions to take, they will

603
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 5: influence other men because we know that a whole bunch

604
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 5: of women going in and lecturing usually isn't going to

605
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 5: get us the outcome that we are hoping for. And

606
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 5: I think there are an enormous number of opportunities that

607
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 5: you can take and that you can start to think about.

608
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 5: I think the first one is that a lot of

609
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 5: blokes feel really uncomfortable in this space. They're not quite

610
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 5: sure well they're supposed to do, and are very nervous

611
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 5: about getting it wrong. Speaking when they're not supposed to

612
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 5: or saying something. I remember a few years ago it

613
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 5: was coming up to International Women's Day, which for me

614
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 5: is just wild, like it's such a busy time, usually

615
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 5: on about twenty flights in that week and giving speeches

616
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 5: all over the place. And I was heading off to

617
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 5: speak at an event and sort of had this moment,

618
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 5: turned back to my husband and was like, what are

619
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 5: you doing, Like is your work doing anything? Yeah, for

620
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 5: International Women's Day and he was like, yeah, yeah, there's

621
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 5: like a lunch thing and I was like, are you going?

622
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: And he just it was lack. He snapped, It's like

623
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: all these feelings been held? Is that?

624
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 5: And he was like, how am I supposed to know?

625
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 5: Like how am I supposed to know if it's a

626
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 5: lunch where they just want the women there or if

627
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 5: they want me there? And then if I go, am

628
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 5: I supposed to like ask a question and be like involved?

629
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 5: Or am I supposed to shut up?

630
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: Like?

631
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: If I shut up, does that look like I don't

632
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 5: care and I'm not interested? If I ask a question,

633
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 5: does it look like I'm pushing out the women?

634
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: And he just interested spiraling out of control.

635
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 4: Hello, it's producer ex jumping in Hi. Something that is

636
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 4: kind of very apparent in the narrative with gender equality

637
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 4: I found is that a lot of men actually find

638
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: that they feel that they're losing something by having gender equality.

639
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: What is an effective way for anyone to kind of

640
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: communicate to men that it's not about what they're losing,

641
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 4: it is actually about what we're all gaining.

642
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 5: I think that's such a good question, and thanks for

643
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 5: stopping me before I said more. That would have pissed

644
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 5: off my husband.

645
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: But I.

646
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 5: Think that's a hard one, right because there is a

647
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 5: narrative that's perpetrated along those lines. In fact, I remember

648
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: when Scott Morrison was Prime Minister, he was asked about

649
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 5: gender equality in the Parliament and he talked about the

650
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 5: importance of making sure that women could advance but not

651
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 5: at the expense of men, and so he was just

652
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 5: reinforcing this idea like you've got to be threatened.

653
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 3: This is scary for me.

654
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 5: It's by talking about gender equality first, and that gender

655
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 5: equality has benefits for everyone. That gender equality frees men

656
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 5: of those stereotype trappings that say who they must be

657
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 5: and dictate the way they have to behave and the

658
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 5: roles they have to undertake in the same way that

659
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 5: we think about women as well.

660
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: And actually I've been writing and thinking.

661
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 5: About this a bit lately, but we're seeing some really

662
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 5: worrying trends amongst boys and some young men, but particularly

663
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 5: amongst boys. In Australia. Boys now so girls lead the

664
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 5: Naplan results every subject every year except I think in

665
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 5: nine maths and science. Girls graduate from school in higher numbers,

666
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 5: they graduate with higher marks, they're more likely to be

667
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 5: the ducks. They go to university in higher numbers, they're

668
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 5: more likely to graduate with awards and honors. Like that's

669
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 5: exciting from a women's progress perspective, But if our focus

670
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 5: is gender equality, then we've got to ask the question

671
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 5: for what's going on? Are we not supporting boys sufficiently

672
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 5: through the education system. We know that things change once

673
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 5: people get to workplaces where the scale tips the other way,

674
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 5: But I worry that we've become so focused on that

675
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 5: that we forget to focus at.

676
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: The other end.

677
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 5: And I think the women's movement have always been the

678
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 5: ones pushing forward the case for gender equality right, and

679
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 5: that can mean that it's easy to overlook when there

680
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 5: are things that we need to be concerned about. Higher

681
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 5: rates of male suicide, higher rates of young boys self

682
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 5: harming is that's growing at a much faster rate than

683
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 5: it is amongst girls. So for me, the way that

684
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 5: you make the case that this isn't about harming everyone,

685
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: it's about helping everyone is to make sure that when

686
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: you're talking about gender equality, you're talking about how to

687
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 5: benefit everyone, and you're bringing people into a conversation and

688
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 5: we find in change makers in the courses we run

689
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 5: at future women. That's when the blokes come alive because

690
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: they're living that right. They've got something to contribute that's

691
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 5: really significant from their own lives, from their friends' lives,

692
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 5: and the stories when we talk about mental health and

693
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 5: we talk about the pressures and expectations, especially the pressure

694
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 5: to be the bread winner is a really big one,

695
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 5: and the pressure to be the bread wind that means

696
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 5: that you don't get the same time to connect with

697
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 5: your kids. The sense that it's acceptable for women in

698
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 5: your workplace to take a year out, two years out,

699
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 5: maybe three years out to spend time with kids, but

700
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 5: you've got to get back as quickly as possible or

701
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: people are going to roll their eyes at you, will

702
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 5: go what's with him? Or he's not ambitious, write him

703
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 5: off for future promotions, Like, we've got to take that

704
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 5: seriously because that really matters. And I think, particularly amongst

705
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 5: young boys at the moment, I do think there's a

706
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 5: real crisis that we're having when it comes to young

707
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 5: boys that we're not really.

708
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: Focusing on yet.

709
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 5: And we've got boys growing up in an environment where

710
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 5: they're learning more in school about gender inequality and about

711
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 5: feminism than I certainly ever did, right, which I.

712
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: Don't think I ever heard those terms in school ever.

713
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: So that is wonderful.

714
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 5: But you've got boys growing up in classrooms where they're

715
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 5: really those classrooms are so focused on telling this story

716
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 5: and having this conversation, and yet those boys.

717
00:33:58,800 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: Don't see it.

718
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: They're like, what are you talking about?

719
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 5: Because the girls win all the awards and the girls happen,

720
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 5: and like, well.

721
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean.

722
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: Now.

723
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 5: They haven't been in a workplace, right, they haven't seen

724
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 5: the realities of what happens to older women in retirement.

725
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 5: So you can forgive that, but if you're going to

726
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 5: teach that in schools, you have to teach that with

727
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 5: a nuance that recognizes that what those little boys do

728
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 5: and don't know and what they haven't haven't been exposed

729
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 5: to yet, Otherwise it's going to breed resentment really really quickly.

730
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: If we were too fast forward ten years. What would

731
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: your dream workplace look like in terms of gender equality.

732
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a fun one.

733
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, like more holidays or something's work

734
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: week six months off every year. I have a bunch of.

735
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 5: Ideas that we take the productivity that ALI gives us

736
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 5: to work less rather than work more.

737
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: I would love that.

738
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 3: That would be trilling, but we don't need to agree

739
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 3: to do it. I don't think we're going to get that.

740
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 5: I mean, for me, I think it comes down to that,

741
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 5: to that freedom from stereotypes, it means an understanding that

742
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 5: is shared by people of all genders, but also people

743
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 5: of all backgrounds and experiences that we all face really

744
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 5: hard stuff because of the combination of experiences and realities

745
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 5: of our lives, and that it's not a competition. It's

746
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 5: about just trying to understand the things that are hard

747
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 5: for other people that aren't hard for you, and thinking

748
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 5: about that within.

749
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: A workplace context and what that means.

750
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 5: And we do that in our family contexts, right, Like

751
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 5: you know, I've never been met a parent who goes,

752
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 5: oh yeah, that kid don't really pull their weight like

753
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 5: my other kids. Like that's not the conversation you have.

754
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 5: You talk about how for that kid something's particularly tricky

755
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 5: or he find playing sport is challenging for them, while

756
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 5: the other kids got a challenge when it comes to

757
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 5: their results at school, and we work to people to

758
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 5: where their abilities are and their skills are, and we

759
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 5: make sure that they get to thrive. For me, I

760
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 5: think workplaces workplaces is where we spend the majority of

761
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 5: our time, Like we spend our majority of our work,

762
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 5: like our lives between sort of eighteen and sixty five

763
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 5: or more at work, Like it needs to be joyful

764
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 5: and rewarding as much as we can and with people

765
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 5: need to be able to feel that they're being recompensed

766
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 5: for what they're doing. And I think you can't achieve

767
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 5: that in an a gender, an equal workplace because it

768
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 5: does create so much resentment. So for me, I suppose

769
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 5: that that would look like a workplace that values people

770
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 5: for who they are and what they bring to the table.

771
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 5: I think inevitably you have to have some people that

772
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 5: have paid more than others, But I think we need

773
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 5: to look at a way to moderate that so that

774
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 5: you don't have a CEO who is paid thirty forty times,

775
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 5: which is where we're headed if we're going in the

776
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 5: direction of the states, what the lowest paid employee in

777
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 5: that organization is worth. I just don't believe one person's

778
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 5: work is worth thirty or forty times what another person's

779
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 5: work is.

780
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I worth one or.

781
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 5: Two times times workplace, it's not worth twenty five, thirty,

782
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 5: forty fifty times.

783
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: I just do not believe that is true.

784
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 5: So I think a degree which we start to recognize

785
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 5: that egalitarianism being I think a really fundamental Australian value,

786
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 5: and how we make that possible within workplaces rather than

787
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 5: letting ourselves fall into that trap where the very top

788
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 5: it's paid more and more and more and we're not

789
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 5: boosting salaries at the bottom. I think that if we

790
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 5: had a genuine commitment to that, gender equality would come

791
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 5: along with it.

792
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: I think as well, like back to what we were

793
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: speaking about in the beginning of the episode, I think

794
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: this is where like the small businesses really have that advantage.

795
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: And I'm almost kind of glad that now you know

796
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: the world of like online businesses and e comm and

797
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: startups is booming because we're creating I guess, new businesses

798
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to corporate companies that have been around forever

799
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: and ever and ever, because more people are becoming founders

800
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: and leaders and have the control within themselves to make

801
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: changes and to you know, like develop workplaces. Because even

802
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: for myself, like, I think it's so cool that, you know,

803
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: I'm a thirty two year old girl that's running this

804
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: massive company, whereas you know, a few generations ago, you.

805
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: Obviously never would have heard of such things.

806
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: So I think there's such opportunity for small businesses and

807
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: startups in Australia to really shape the future of what

808
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: workplaces look like. It's obviously, you know, more so in

809
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: the big corporate world and the huge companies where it's

810
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: going to be hard for them to like make those

811
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: shifts and changes towards a better future for all employees

812
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: because they're so you know, in their ways and obviously huge.

813
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: But I think there's so much power in the small

814
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: business world.

815
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's easier to turn a small boat around than

816
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 5: it is like a big cruise liner, right.

817
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: Exactly, right, all right, Jamila.

818
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: Before we wrap up, we've got some juicy questions here,

819
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: They're not all that juicy if I'm being honest.

820
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: How did you sleep your way to the top?

821
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: Do you think that women are better bosses than men?

822
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: You know?

823
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: I don't. Well, no, I don't, right, I think. I think.

824
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 5: I think people of all genders have the ability to

825
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 5: be great bosses and also the ability to be terrible bosses.

826
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, you know.

827
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 5: I remember I read a book What Feels Like one

828
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 5: hundred years ago in twenty seventeen that was about sort

829
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 5: of being a young millennial woman in workplaces and the

830
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 5: experience and what that's like. And I remember touring that

831
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 5: book and there would always be every time in the

832
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 5: questions there would be someone who kind of put their

833
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 5: hand up really slowly and tentatively and went, but what

834
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 5: if the worst thing that's happened to you at work was.

835
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 3: From a woman?

836
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 5: And then you'd be like, yeah, that can still happen

837
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 5: one hundred percent. Also, women are sexist too. Sexism is

838
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 5: sexism is something that comes about, right because of how

839
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 5: we're raised. We all live in a world that's sexist

840
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 5: in the same way we all live in a world

841
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 5: that's racist. So you are you are sucking all that

842
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 5: information up as a woman the same way blokes are. Right,

843
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 5: you're not immune from it now, so you're also perpetrating

844
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 5: those stereotypes and sexism. You're doing it against yourself and

845
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 5: you're doing it against other women. So yeah, absolutely, sometimes

846
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 5: there will be a woman in your organization who who

847
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 5: treats you badly, and you know not to excuse that,

848
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 5: but yeah, to explain it, I suppose if you're a woman,

849
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 5: say working in a big corporate or a big government organization,

850
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 5: and you're an ambitious person. You look up to the

851
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 5: top of that organization and let's say there's like a

852
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 5: boardroom or an executive team of ten spots, and at

853
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 5: the moment there's two women and there's eight men. In

854
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 5: your brain, subconsciously you go, I've got to get me

855
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 5: one of those women's spots, right, you go on there,

856
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 5: so there's space for two women, so I've got to

857
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 5: get me a woman's spot. As soon as your brain

858
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 5: does that, that makes every other woman your competitor to

859
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 5: get to the top, and so you don't like them

860
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 5: very much.

861
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: Whereas if you go there's ten spots, whoa who let

862
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 3: me get one of those.

863
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 5: Spots I'm going to work hard and try and get

864
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 5: one of those. And it's friendly sense of competition. Firstly,

865
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 5: there's more to go around if you're focusing on ten

866
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 5: opportunities rather than two. But also you're not condemning half

867
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 5: the organization to being your competition and therefore disliking them.

868
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 5: And there's a really natural response, but it's one I

869
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 5: think we have to fight. I also think we hold

870
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 5: women to higher standards, right, Like, you know, imagine you're

871
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 5: working for yourself, obviously, but imagine you're not Brittany. You're like,

872
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 5: you're working for a you're working for a boss, and

873
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 5: you come back from parental leave and you're about to

874
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: return and the boss says, here's the tough thing.

875
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: You want to come back part time.

876
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 5: Your job can't be done part time, so either you

877
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 5: come back full time or I need to give you.

878
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: This other slightly lower paid job.

879
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

880
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 5: Now you go home at the end of the day

881
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 5: and you're like, I hate that person a little bit,

882
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 5: Like I hate my boss a little bit today because

883
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 5: that feels really unfair.

884
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: He was not really thinking about my experience. He didn't

885
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: really understand. That's a bit shitty. You make that boss

886
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 3: a woman and you hate them a little bit more

887
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 3: like you do? You do you make that.

888
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 5: A a woman with kids and she's a monster right now.

889
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 5: In the end, that's the same decision. And I'm not

890
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 5: saying that we shouldn't hold those women to a high standard.

891
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 3: We should.

892
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 5: We should hold the men to the same standard though.

893
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 5: So I do think we can be harsher on harsher

894
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 5: on other women than we than we are on other men.

895
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: And that is about the sexism that we internalize.

896
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, as speaking from my own experience as well,

897
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of moments throughout my career when

898
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: dealing with lots of staff where I have questioned someone's

899
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: actions towards me or the way they've spoken towards me,

900
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: and I've often wondered, would this person have.

901
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: Treated me this way if I was a man?

902
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I've said it to my partner AJ so

903
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 1: many times where even in my own business, where like

904
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 1: I've got a team of women, I feel like I've

905
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: been walked over being a woman in power, and I've

906
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: said to Aj, like, do you think that that person

907
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: would have said that to me if I was a man?

908
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 1: Kind of thing, like I've experienced it in my own workplace,

909
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: which is so so crazy. Like I think it is

910
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: challenging to be a female leader, but I think that

911
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: all stems from all that stuff that we've been listening

912
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 1: to and hearing our whole lives, even if it's coming

913
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: from men and four men, like we as women think

914
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: of women differently in power. And I know Xander and

915
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: I have had conversations about this as well as Xander.

916
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can talk on your experience,

917
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: but us having these conversations on my podcast about women

918
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: in leadership, Xander has clocked himself with things that he's

919
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: even thought when he's had his female leaders speak to

920
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: him in certain ways, and he's called himself out.

921
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: So I'm calling you out, his Xander.

922
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's so interesting if you could ban

923
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: one phrase that men use in business forever, what would

924
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: it be, or to.

925
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: Just be the word mate? God.

926
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 5: I genuinely think when men are working together and constantly

927
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 5: calling each other mate, Yeah, they're either constantly calling each

928
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 5: other mate, and then they don't give it to the

929
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 5: women and so you immediately are like, oh, well they're

930
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 5: in the club and I'm not, which feels like crap.

931
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: Or you get used mate in.

932
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 5: Like a condescend condescend Yeah. Like I remember when I

933
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 5: worked in politics for years, I would never get mated

934
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 5: because I was not in the boys club to be mated.

935
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 5: But then if I was in trouble or I was

936
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 5: being ticked off, it'd be like mate, and it was

937
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 5: so condescending.

938
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: It was like, yeah, you don't get it, and I

939
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 3: needed to settle down.

940
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 5: I would feel like saying no, I'm not your mate,

941
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 5: because I was never your mate until right now when trouble.

942
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 4: I feel that as a as a massive man in

943
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: a workplace. Actually, I like when I'm called mate, I

944
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 4: feel like it is condescending and I feel like you're

945
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 4: actually you make it very clear where you are and

946
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 4: where I am. I don't like that terminology.

947
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I.

948
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 5: Genuinely think most people who are using it it's probably

949
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 5: just part of their vernacular, but there's so much that's

950
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 5: going on behind it, in the way you use it,

951
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 5: in the tone and who too.

952
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, just piss me off.

953
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: Let's ban the word mate. Okay, my last juicy question.

954
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: Have you ever been in a meeting where you've just thought, Wow,

955
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: did he just really say that?

956
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: And what happened.

957
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: Yes, Can I say these out louds?

958
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: Not if you're going to get in trouble?

959
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

960
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 5: No, they're all all they're all politics days ones, right,

961
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 5: because similar to you, I think most of the workplaces

962
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 5: I've worked in have been massively dominated by women, and

963
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 5: so politics was sort of my experience of working with

964
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,479
Speaker 5: vast majority, vast majority men.

965
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: Certainly, I think.

966
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 5: Conversations around whether or not women were up to a

967
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 5: certain job, and whether or not women would want or

968
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 5: be interested in a certain role, and assumptions being made

969
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 5: without ever having talked to her. I think that was

970
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 5: the things that annoyed me, Like there was such a

971
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 5: sense of like, oh, well, she's not going to want

972
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 5: that because she's got young kids, or she's not going

973
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 5: to you know, And it was just sort of like, well,

974
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 5: just ask.

975
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: Her, Yeah, have you asked her? Are you just making

976
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: that um?

977
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

978
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 5: Like or even even if you are a one hundred

979
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 5: percent sure she's going to say no because it's not

980
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 5: possible for her right now because of what's going on

981
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 5: outside work. I bet she'd still love to know that

982
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 5: you thought of her and you thought she'd be great

983
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 5: for that role. Give her the chance to say yes

984
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 5: or no. And I think, you know, on the flip side,

985
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 5: did the same thing for blokes in terms of being

986
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 5: able to care for family and be with kids. Like

987
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 5: we're just that that it's the assumption making where the

988
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 5: pain points are absolutely well.

989
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: To wrap up, what advice would you give to founders

990
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: like me or people who are even just starting a

991
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: business or they're building businesses now to make sure that

992
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: we're not just inclusive today but also setting the tone

993
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: for the future.

994
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, the first thing I would do is I

995
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 5: would take my hat off to you because I am

996
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 5: someone who has been the two I see now into

997
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 5: businesses that were scaling, and I don't think I could

998
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 5: have been the founder ever.

999
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: The hardest job in there. It's a tough gig.

1000
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: I literally did a real like two days ago because

1001
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: I've seen so many business owners on TikTok lately like

1002
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: breaking down and crying, being like, my business is so difficult.

1003
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: And I did a video the other day being like

1004
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 2: business is.

1005
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: So hard, Like it's never not hard if I'm being honest, Like,

1006
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: it's hard at all points, but you do it because

1007
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: you love it and for the high moments obviously as well.

1008
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's so deeply personal when it's yours, that is,

1009
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 5: there is nothing that compares.

1010
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 3: And you know, I have been with with f W

1011
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 3: since day one.

1012
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 5: I have been there in the trenches every second, you know,

1013
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 5: I think about the late nights that I've spent working

1014
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 5: with Helen, who's our founder.

1015
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 3: I'm still not her.

1016
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 5: It's still it's still not my money, my brain child,

1017
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 5: my baby. No matter how much my contribution might be,

1018
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 5: it's never going to have quite the same heart feel

1019
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 5: that she's got. Yeah, and quite the same association, quite

1020
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 5: the same feelings around risk of failure. So the first

1021
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 5: thing I just say is like just enormous admiration. My

1022
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 5: experience is that most founders are absolutely useless at celebrating

1023
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 5: the wins, like really bad.

1024
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: Because it's just to get on to the next Yeah.

1025
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 5: I'm the same, And usually when the wind comes off,

1026
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 5: you've sort of almost already banked it and moved on

1027
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 5: to the next thing. So if I could give a

1028
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 5: single piece of advice, that would be stopped and celebrate

1029
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 5: the wins. Even if you don't need the celebration, your team.

1030
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 3: Needs the celebration, so you need to celebrate with them.

1031
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely love that meat taking notes, need to

1032
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: celebrate more. Well, Jamila, this has been amazing having you

1033
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: on the pod. I feel like I could just sit

1034
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 1: here and talk about all this kind of stuff, pleasure

1035
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: stuff for hours. But to wrap up every big business episode,

1036
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: we always end with a tip of the week. It

1037
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: can be related to everything that we've been talking about,

1038
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: or it can be a life hack or something completely

1039
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: different to what we've been talking about.

1040
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: So do you have any kind of tip of the

1041
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: week for us?

1042
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's terrifying, Like I'm not someone you

1043
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 3: should ask for.

1044
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: Tips with me, I'm.

1045
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: Here to give. It feels like a bit of a

1046
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: hot mess at the moment.

1047
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 5: I don't know if I should be helping anybody else,

1048
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 5: So I don't want to get into too much when

1049
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 5: we're right at the end of the podcast. But my

1050
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 5: life changed massively about seven years ago when I was

1051
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 5: diagnosed with a brain tumor and I now live with

1052
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 5: really complex disabilities as a result, And one of them

1053
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 5: is memory loss, which massively affects you work obviously, and

1054
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 5: I spent a good few years trying.

1055
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 3: To hide that at work.

1056
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 5: Just be like I've got to be so good and

1057
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 5: so cautious with all my notes and my obsessive checking

1058
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 5: and all the rest that no one would notice. And

1059
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 5: the single best thing I ever did was tell people,

1060
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 5: and all my colleagues know now, and the generosity with

1061
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 5: which people treat you when they know and they understand

1062
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 5: what's going on and what's driving a potential error that

1063
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 5: could happen, rather than them sitting back and just feeling frustrated,

1064
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 5: being like, how does she not remember we just talked

1065
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 5: about that last week? She doesn't care about me? And

1066
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 5: thinking a million other things that are behind it, and

1067
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 5: thinking there's some sort of intention or value of attributed

1068
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 5: to them, not the fact that my brain just doesn't

1069
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 5: work properly. Firstly, I've felt like the enormous generosity of colleagues,

1070
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 5: but also we work better together, We're more efficient, we're

1071
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 5: more effective, and they are already building, you know, a

1072
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 5: little bits and pieces into their routines that support me

1073
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 5: better and mean that I'm less likely to forget the

1074
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 5: number of meetings I sit down and someone will say

1075
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 5: so just to recap where we're at, and.

1076
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: I know that they're only doing it for me.

1077
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 5: Everyone else knows or my EA will quickly drop all

1078
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 5: the links in the chat and go these are the

1079
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 5: ones you're going to need for this meeting, and you're like, thanks,

1080
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 5: because it would take me so long to find them

1081
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 5: because I won't remember I've saved them. I think that's

1082
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 5: true for everyone. We've all got vulnerabilities, we've all got weaknesses.

1083
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 5: I think the willingness as a leader to admit some

1084
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 5: weaknesses and say what would help you this firstly takes

1085
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 5: the weight off of trying to hide it and feeling

1086
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 5: embarrassed and anxious about it, and gives everybody else the

1087
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 5: permission to try and help you out.

1088
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that and thanks for sharing.

1089
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: I think it goes back as well to the importance

1090
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: of using your voice, whether you're a leader in the

1091
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: workplace or you're an employee, just like speaking up and

1092
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: letting people know how you're feeling, or if you have

1093
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: something going on outside, because again especially for founders, like

1094
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: everyone's so busy and got those million things going on,

1095
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: and we can be better leaders if people are vocal

1096
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: about what it is that they may need help with

1097
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 1: or why they might be falling behind. I think having

1098
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: that voice in a workplace, leader or employee or anything

1099
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: in between, I think it can go a long way,

1100
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: and like you said, at the end of the day,

1101
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: it makes everyone work better.

1102
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: Together, so I think that's really important.

1103
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: Well, Jamila, thank you so much for coming on Big

1104
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: Business and spending time with us today. Can you let

1105
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: us know, like, where can everyone find you?

1106
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 3: Oh, You're a delight. It's been so much fun.

1107
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 5: You can find me hanging out at future women, which

1108
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 5: is just futurewomen dot com. Easy to find us, and

1109
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 5: then I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook and all

1110
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 5: the places.

1111
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 3: In your books at Jamila Risky. It's the joy of

1112
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 3: having an unusual name easy to find.

1113
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 2: I absolutely love it.

1114
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming on and wishing

1115
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: you all the best, and we'll we'll have to get

1116
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: you back again in the future because I feel like

1117
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: there's so many topics that we could just like fully

1118
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: delvy into, Like we've done the basics today, but I

1119
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: feel like there's so much that we could just dive

1120
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: into and be specific about.

1121
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: So thanks so much for coming on.