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Speaker 1: The trial of Aaron Patterson is done and dusted. Every

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Speaker 1: day we brought you into the courtroom and dissected what

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Speaker 1: the jury heard, but there was plenty that went on

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Now we can lift the lid. I'm

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Speaker 1: Brooke greeb At Craig and this is the mushroom cook. Hi, Laura,

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Speaker 1: We're back for another episode.

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's get into it so our listeners may remember

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Speaker 2: that there were sometimes during the trial where the jury

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Speaker 2: had to leave the courtroom. There were discussions taking place

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Speaker 2: in their absence, and that meant that we couldn't report

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Speaker 2: on them because essentially that would defeat the purpose of

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Speaker 2: them leaving the room in the first place. But now

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Speaker 2: that the trial is over, we can lift the lid

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Speaker 2: on those discussions and bring those moments to our listeners.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and the first moment came very early on during

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Speaker 1: the trial. Aaron's estranged husband, Simon Patterson, was giving evidence

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Speaker 1: and he revealed in the first ten seconds of his

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Speaker 1: testimony he was still married to her. Later that day,

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Speaker 1: Justice Christopher Bill had a small but important question. Here's

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Speaker 1: his exchange with Simon. These are their words, but not

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Speaker 1: their voices.

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Speaker 3: There is a matter I need to raise with you.

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Speaker 3: In the absence of the jury. I made certain assumptions,

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Speaker 3: and I just want to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

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Speaker 3: The spouse of an accused person has a right to

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Speaker 3: object to giving evidence. I've assumed that from the history

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Speaker 3: of this matter, you've been informed of that right. No,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know. I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know I had the right to object.

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Speaker 2: But I don't object.

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Speaker 3: I'm happy to proceed giving evidence. I'm willing to give evidence.

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Speaker 3: I think if I'd been offered that before, I still

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Speaker 3: would have said the same thing. I'm quite comfortable about that.

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Speaker 2: And this was quite a shocking moment, and I remember

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Speaker 2: it quite vividly. Brooke. We were sitting in the overflow

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Speaker 2: room and this discussion was playing out between Justice Bill

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Speaker 2: and Simon, and there was maybe a moment there where

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Speaker 2: we all thought there was about to be a mis trial.

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Speaker 2: Because if Simon said to Justice bil that he didn't

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Speaker 2: want to continue giving evidence, he had already been on

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Speaker 2: the stand by that stage for a few hours and

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Speaker 2: that jury had heard what he had to say, so

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Speaker 2: he would have had to have left the witness box.

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Speaker 2: Justice Bier would have had to have told the jury

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Speaker 2: that they were no longer required, and they probably would

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Speaker 2: have impaneled a whole new jury to start things all

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Speaker 2: over again.

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Speaker 1: And I think in this moment, we were actually sitting

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Speaker 1: next to each other and you actually grabbed my hand,

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Speaker 1: and we were all waiting in anticipation for Simon's response

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Speaker 1: because he took a few moments to actually think about

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Speaker 1: what he was going to reply, So we were really

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Speaker 1: on the edge of our seats.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's hard to know exactly what happened here.

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Speaker 2: We can maybe assume that someone in the prosecution team

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Speaker 2: should have had that discussion with him, But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, this was a trial that centered around the

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Speaker 2: murders of his parents and his aunt and the attempted

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Speaker 2: murder of his uncle, so you can see why they

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Speaker 2: probably safely assumed that he would want to give evidence,

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Speaker 2: and I guess in the end that they were correct

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Speaker 2: with that assumption.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, as we've touched upon previously, Brook, the media

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Speaker 2: are subject to some really strict rules when it comes

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Speaker 2: to reporting on a trial, and the main rule at

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Speaker 2: play here is called sub judacy contempt. So this is

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Speaker 2: all about protecting an accused right to a fair trial,

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Speaker 2: So we can only publish what's heard by the jury

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Speaker 2: and we can't provide any commentary on the case. But

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Speaker 2: several media outlets landed themselves in hot water for breaching

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Speaker 2: this rule.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and this included controversial shock jocks kyl and Jackie

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Speaker 1: oh So. On their breakfast show on June sixteen, they

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Speaker 1: discussed the trial weeks before Aaron was found guilty of

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Speaker 1: triple murder and attempted murder. So we obtained audio of

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Speaker 1: that show before it was taken down by their publisher

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Speaker 1: Arn take a listen as to what they said.

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Speaker 2: Getting around keep seeing I have a red head. I mean,

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Speaker 2: does do it or not?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Like, what is the point to the jury?

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Speaker 2: Question? Is how strong is her case?

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Speaker 3: Not strong? Not strong?

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Speaker 1: Carl went on to say, come on.

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Speaker 3: Looking at it, wait until case too long.

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Speaker 2: These courts should be in and out, decided and.

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Speaker 1: Moved on.

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Speaker 3: One day.

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Speaker 2: Accused, right, and what am I going to get accused of?

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Speaker 1: I can't even cook toast.

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Speaker 2: Hours later, Justice Beale raised this matter with the prosecution

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Speaker 2: and defense teams in the absence of the jury. Here

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Speaker 2: is what he said.

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Speaker 3: I encourage all commentators to engage their brains before they

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Speaker 3: open their mouths, as they may otherwise land themselves and

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Speaker 3: their organizations in hot water. I will be referring this

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Speaker 3: morning's matter to the Office of Public Prosecution for contempt proceedings.

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Speaker 3: Our media unit will continue to closely monitor all media

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Speaker 3: in relation to commentary on this case, whether the commentary

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Speaker 3: be shock jocks, so called influences, social media commentators, or

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Speaker 3: legacy media.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sure our listeners probably agree with us, but

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Speaker 1: Kyle's comments were very shocking and quite brazen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. And Kyle and JACKIEO recently started broadcasting

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne, which meant that there was a potential chance

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Speaker 2: that jurors on their way to court that morning would

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Speaker 2: have been tuning into the show and could have heard

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Speaker 2: what they said.

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Speaker 1: And I think from the perspective of the journalists who

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Speaker 1: were in court covering the case day in, day out,

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Speaker 1: it was quite disappointing to hear this being said, considering

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Speaker 1: Kyle and JACKIEO or any of their staff were not

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Speaker 1: in court at the time and covering the trial religiously

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Speaker 1: like we were.

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Speaker 2: And this was particularly disappointing because they weren't the only ones.

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Speaker 2: So a few days earlier, on June five, The popular

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Speaker 2: Muma Mia out Loud podcast also landed itself in hot

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Speaker 2: water for publishing an episode that's speculated about Aaron's decision

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Speaker 2: to testify in her own trial. We don't have the

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Speaker 2: audio of this podcast. They took it down very swiftly,

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Speaker 2: but some of the things they told their listeners was

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Speaker 2: that it was rare for a defendant to take the stand,

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Speaker 2: that when you put yourself on the stand, that a

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Speaker 2: poor performance or ap peering nervous can really harm your case,

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Speaker 2: and that when you get cross examined, it puts you

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Speaker 2: in a very, very vulnerable position. They also went on

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Speaker 2: to speak about alleged female perpetrators and this whole idea

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Speaker 2: of how interesting it was that women choose poison as

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Speaker 2: a murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: And obviously all of that is fine to talk about

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Speaker 1: now that the verdict has been handed down, but when

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Speaker 1: they released this episode, it was during that period where

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Speaker 1: we were under those strict regulations exactly.

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Speaker 2: Justice Beale brought this up with the parties and he

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Speaker 2: said he would also consider proceedings against Muma Mea for

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Speaker 2: subjudacy contempt. He didn't go as far to say he

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Speaker 2: would refer them, but said he would consider it at

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Speaker 2: a more convenient time. He told the court that the

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Speaker 2: discussion they had on that podcast was full of highly

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Speaker 2: prejudicial expressions of opinion.

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Speaker 1: So, Laura, what could actually happen to some of these publishers.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit unclear right now, because contemp proceedings can

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Speaker 2: be initiated against individuals, but it also can be initiated

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Speaker 2: against their employers. So in the case of kyl and

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Speaker 2: Jackie O, while it is possible that Kyle and Jackie

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Speaker 2: O themselves could be hauled before court and brought before

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Speaker 2: a judge or a magistrate, it's also possible that it

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Speaker 2: might have to be their employers that end up potentially

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Speaker 2: taking the fall for what they did. But it wasn't

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Speaker 2: only media outlets falling foul of the law, Rightbrook.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. So earlier on in the trial and

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Speaker 1: the absence of the jury, Justice Bill came into the

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Speaker 1: court room and said, do you want me to ask

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Speaker 1: the juris if anybody attended a show in Melbourne on

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Speaker 1: the weekend. He didn't provide any context as to what

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Speaker 1: show this really was, But I had previously spoke to

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Speaker 1: a member of the public who had been attending the trial.

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Speaker 1: Every single day, and she attended a show on the

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Speaker 1: weekend that was called The Psychology of serial Killers. And

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Speaker 1: I kind of put two and two together and realized

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Speaker 1: that Justice bill was talking about this show in particular. So,

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Speaker 1: as it says in the title of this show, this

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Speaker 1: event was all about serial killers. It was hosted by

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Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist and criminal expert, and her name is

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Speaker 1: doctor Rachel Toles. And during this show she spoke about

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson and even plastered her face on a massive

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Speaker 1: scream among notorious serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Damer.

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Speaker 1: We understand that doctor Toles told the crowd of hundreds

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Speaker 1: that she believed Aaron was guilty, and obviously this is

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Speaker 1: a big no no.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I remember that moment. We were again sitting in the

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Speaker 2: overflow room. I remember a lot of the other court

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Speaker 2: reporters not quite knowing what Justice Biel was speaking about.

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Speaker 2: But you looked at me and you quickly sent me

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Speaker 2: information about the show, and we realized what was going on.

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Speaker 2: So after he brought up this show, there were some

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Speaker 2: discussions between the prosecution and the defense and Justice Spiel

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Speaker 2: about what should happen, and Justice Spiel asked, like you

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Speaker 2: said Brooke whether he should ask the jurors if they

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Speaker 2: attended a show in Melbourne. At first, the defense really

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Speaker 2: didn't want Justice Biele to touch this with a ten

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Speaker 2: foot poll. They didn't want him to even go there

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Speaker 2: and bring up this show, but it was decided that

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Speaker 2: something should be done. Justice Biele said to the parties,

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Speaker 2: I don't think ignorance is bliss in this situation, and

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Speaker 2: it's better to know than not know. I think we

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Speaker 2: have previously mentioned Justice Biel's tip staff, Stuart Hastings before.

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Speaker 2: He is like the manager of the courtroom that makes

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Speaker 2: sure everything runs smoothly. Justice Beiel asked mister Hastings to

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Speaker 2: go into the jury room to ask them whether any

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Speaker 2: of them attended event in Melbourne. So remember this was

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Speaker 2: quite funny at the time because essentially mister Hastings was

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Speaker 2: a covert spy going into the jury room to do

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Speaker 2: some sleuthing. So he's gone in. I think it only

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Speaker 2: took him about a minute until he returned.

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Speaker 1: And once again in that moment, we were all on

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Speaker 1: the edge of our seats.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we don't know what the jurors do on the weekend,

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Speaker 2: while they do all live in the Gippsland area. Melbourne

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Speaker 2: isn't too far away, so he's come back into the

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Speaker 2: room and he started by saying there was one person

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Speaker 2: who attended an event in Melbourne and he kind of paused,

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Speaker 2: and I do wonder if this was for a dramatic effect,

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Speaker 2: and then he said and that was the.

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Speaker 1: Soccer and we all breathed a sigh of relief.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. So it remains to be seen whether

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Speaker 2: or not the Carl and Jackie Oh Show, the Muma

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Speaker 2: mea Out Loud podcast or Doctor Toles will face any

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Speaker 2: contempt proceedings for the things they said during the trial.

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Speaker 2: But I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on this

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Speaker 2: because some of them may end up facing court.

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Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court came back with some numbers this week.

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Speaker 1: They actually confirmed that the trial was the biggest matter

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Speaker 1: media wise that they had managed in recent history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if this would have come as

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Speaker 2: a shock to many people, but it was great that

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Speaker 2: they actually confirmed that. They said more than two hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty journalists and media outlets were signed up to

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Speaker 2: receive updates on the trial, and this included fifteen international

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Speaker 2: media outlets, nine authors, seven podcasts, seven documentary crews and

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Speaker 2: one television drama series that's huge. Yes, And there's so

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Speaker 2: much content that is yet to be produced. So while

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Speaker 2: some documentaries are close to airing, we know others may

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Speaker 2: be in production for quite a while to come. Will

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Speaker 2: you be watching any of them when they come out, Brook.

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Speaker 1: Oh, definitely. I think it would be super interesting to

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Speaker 1: see how other organizations tell the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And the Supreme Court said that for

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Speaker 2: the most part, they were overall pleas by how everyone

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Speaker 2: behaved when it came to covering this trial, but they

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Speaker 2: said it was concerning to see some media outlets and

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Speaker 2: commentators attempting to cover the case despite having no direct

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Speaker 2: contact with the trial and no real understanding of their

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Speaker 2: legal responsibilities. They confirmed that sixteen directions were given to

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Speaker 2: remove content and this included against four individuals on social media,

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Speaker 2: and that was mostly for breaches of sub judacy contempt.

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Speaker 2: So it'll be interesting to see how all of that

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Speaker 2: plays out. But for now, for us, we'll be taking

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Speaker 2: a break from daily podcasting, but there will come a

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Speaker 2: point where we'll be back for as we've flagged previously,

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Speaker 2: Erin's pre sentence hearing and then after that Justice Biel

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Speaker 2: will sentence Erin for triple murder and attempted murder.

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Speaker 1: But the next show we have will be mid next

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Speaker 1: week Andrew Rule from our sister podcast Life and Crimes

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Speaker 1: will present a program on women who poison and I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to take this opportunity to say a big

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Speaker 1: thanks to all our listeners. We really appreciate the support

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Speaker 1: of The Mushroom Cook. We read all of the comments

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Speaker 1: and we really appreciate all the feedback that we have

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Speaker 1: received over the last eleven weeks.

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Speaker 2: And while we're on the topic of thank yous, we

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Speaker 2: also want to say a massive thank you to all

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Speaker 2: of our colleagues and friends who have helped us produce

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Speaker 2: The Mushroom Cook. From those who lended their voices to

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Speaker 2: bring the courtroom drama to life, to our lawyers at

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Speaker 2: Thompson Gear who made sure they stayed awake to listen

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Speaker 2: to our episodes before they went live. And to our editors,

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Speaker 2: chiefs of staff and colleagues who have supported us throughout

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Speaker 2: this whole process.

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Speaker 1: And thanks so much Laura for being a big part

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Speaker 1: of season two of The Mushroom Cook. I think our

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Speaker 1: listeners have really appreciated your skills and expertise.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much, Brook, that's really sweet and

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Speaker 2: I also want to say thank you to you as well.

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Speaker 2: You have dedicated many hours to this podcast and we

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Speaker 2: all appreciate your efforts very much.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Laura and until next time see you then, thanks

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Speaker 1: again for listening. This is a herald some production for

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Speaker 1: True Crime Australia. It's presented and rewarded by Brook Greebert Craig,

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Speaker 1: Laura Placella and Anthony Dowsley. Our executive producer is Jordie Atkinson.

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Speaker 1: The Mushroom Cook is produced, written and edited by John

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Speaker 1: ty Burton