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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former

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Speaker 1: greenpeace warrior, state politician the current Australian Capital Territory Attorney

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Speaker 1: General Shane Rattenberry. Welcome back, Shane, Thanks very much. Now, Shane,

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Speaker 1: before we get back talking about crime and solving all

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Speaker 1: the all the issues in the world of crime, You're

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Speaker 1: obviously a very busy person, very driven person. How do

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Speaker 1: you find balance in your life?

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Speaker 2: I think in a job like I have. It is

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Speaker 2: important to get that balance otherwise you just burn yourself out.

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Speaker 2: So I used to do triathlon. It was a great

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Speaker 2: outlet for me as a young person. Kept me pretty

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Speaker 2: focused as well. And these days I just run. I've

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Speaker 2: got time to do.

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Speaker 1: That, just run marathons, but I do a bit.

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Speaker 2: I do trial running. Yah. It's sort of become a

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Speaker 2: really popular sport in Australian so the races are held

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Speaker 2: in beautiful places, you know, the Blue Mountains, national parks,

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Speaker 2: coastal locations. It's a good outlet and I enjoy the training.

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Speaker 2: I usually run by myself in training and running with

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Speaker 2: mates is really fun and social. But because my job's

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Speaker 2: so full on actually having some quiet time just think

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Speaker 2: about things, I actually find it very meditative.

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Speaker 1: I think I do meditation and I do describe running

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Speaker 1: it can have the same effect because you can just

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Speaker 1: switch off and get lost in your thoughts and don't

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Speaker 1: worry about anything else other than one foot after the other.

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Speaker 2: And I think for people who've never runners, they think, oh,

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Speaker 2: running must just be painful. But once you get fit enough,

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Speaker 2: you know, and your body's adapted a little bit, you

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Speaker 2: can't just go out for a run and it doesn't hurt.

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Speaker 2: You're just sort of cruising along. And especially in Canberra

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Speaker 2: I live, we've got some nice nature reserve areas and

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Speaker 2: you go out and kangaroos and wildflowers in the spring.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty good for the soul.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, and you can get lost in that, so

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Speaker 1: let's your balance. You talk triathons, Did you do the

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Speaker 1: Hawaiian Triathlon?

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Speaker 2: I have done it once. Yeah, that's a tough. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Just tell people that don't understand how far you ran,

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Speaker 1: swim and cycle, because.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the I Man in Hawaii it's really hot

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Speaker 2: and humid as well, so the temperature adds a whole

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Speaker 2: lot to it. But it's a three point eight kilometer swim,

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Speaker 2: then one hundred and eighty k's on the bike, and

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Speaker 2: then you jump off and run a marathon. So forty

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Speaker 2: two k's at the end. How'd you feel after that?

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Speaker 2: Pretty poorly? Yeah, yeah, big, it's just a tough day

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Speaker 2: out I've had. I've done the I Man about half

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Speaker 2: a dozen times. Yeah, in various places. I've had some

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Speaker 2: good ones and I've had some bad ones. Yeah. If

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Speaker 2: you hit the wall, it's long. It's a long day

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Speaker 2: out there, and you st get home for prettyquasy, but

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Speaker 2: if you get it right, it's the most exhilarating thing.

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Speaker 2: And hitting that finish line you've achieved something you never

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Speaker 2: thought you could do. There's an enormous sense of self

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Speaker 2: satisfaction in it of having pushed yourself through some dark moments,

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Speaker 2: get out there and you're like, I just want to stop,

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Speaker 2: I just want to give up, and you keep going.

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Speaker 2: So the thrill of finishing is pretty.

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Speaker 1: Powerful, and it builds up that resilience, doesn't it. If

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Speaker 1: you put yourself through that sort of pain and that

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Speaker 1: sort of tests that you've got through that so other

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Speaker 1: things that you face you go, okay, well I can

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Speaker 1: manage this.

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Speaker 2: It's really true. And in some ways, the race day

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Speaker 2: is the fun day. It's the preparation that's hard. Now.

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Speaker 2: I once saw one of the professional triathlets say I

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Speaker 2: love race day because you know, you get out of there,

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Speaker 2: there's people come and cheer for you. It's catered because

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Speaker 2: they have aid stations and things. When you're out training

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Speaker 2: by yourself, they're the long, hard, lonely times. But it

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Speaker 2: does teach your focus and discipline and overcoming hard obstacles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and also you get what you put in like,

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Speaker 1: you can't shortcut your training. You're going to put the

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Speaker 1: kilometers in your legs and get yourself ready for it.

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Speaker 1: Soun't take shortcuts. So it's a good lesson in life,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And that's always pena motivation for me in trainings. If

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Speaker 2: I don't do it there, it's going to be a

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Speaker 2: lot worse when you try and do the event later.

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Speaker 1: Do you try to train early in the morning or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, because if otherwise you get in the

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Speaker 2: day and the day takes over and it's a nice

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Speaker 2: peaceful time of day. I guess I've probably become a

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Speaker 2: morning person as a results of it. There's not many

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Speaker 2: people around, the sun's coming up, you know, the birds

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Speaker 2: are out. It's a pretty good time a day to

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Speaker 2: be out there. People who are not mourning people are

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Speaker 2: missing out. I reckon.

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Speaker 1: I let's not tell two many people because I'm a

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Speaker 1: morning person.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: You get up, get all your stuff done, do your training,

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Speaker 1: there's no one around, and that then you've got the

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Speaker 1: day ahead of you. I would imagine in politics, like

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Speaker 1: in policing too, if I got my training done in

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Speaker 1: the morning, I didn't care what happened for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the day because I've already had my men time

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Speaker 1: in the training.

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Speaker 2: It's a perfect description of it. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Now I've also spoken to your staff and I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to name names, and I won't even look in

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Speaker 1: the direction, but they want me to find out seeing

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Speaker 1: this is called I catch kill it. Whether you're a robot, now,

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Speaker 1: if that's a reflection on how hard do you keep

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Speaker 1: your staff going or how hard you work? But how

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Speaker 1: would you answer that if someone said, are you a robot?

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Speaker 2: I hope not.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think I have got an ability to keep

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Speaker 2: at it, you know, because I just find the work

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Speaker 2: so interesting and so motivating, and the ability to make

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Speaker 2: a difference does keep you going. And I think I've

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Speaker 2: got a bit of stamina. I think the endurance sports

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Speaker 2: speak to that. But that's you do hit a point

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Speaker 2: sometimes where you've just got to go home, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I do have that real bell and sometimes I

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Speaker 2: just go home at the end of the day and

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Speaker 2: the work is really intense. And I'm sure you have

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Speaker 2: this experience, well, and you literally you get home, you

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Speaker 2: sit on the couch and you just don't move because

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Speaker 2: you've spent all your not just your physical energy it's

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Speaker 2: the expandite of emotional energy.

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Speaker 1: You Sometimes I get home, I didn't even have the

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Speaker 1: energy to say hello. You have just drained everything out

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Speaker 1: of you.

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Speaker 2: And that's part of the sacrifice for the family as well,

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Speaker 2: because you're coming in like, don't talk to me, I

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Speaker 2: just need some quiet time, and they're waiting for you

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Speaker 2: at home. You've been gone a long time, so that

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Speaker 2: you know, that's some of the toll of these kind

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Speaker 2: of roles. You've got kids. I don't know, but I

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Speaker 2: met a part in the later in life. She's got

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Speaker 2: kids and we're now starting to see green kids come along.

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Speaker 2: So that's been a lot of fun for me. And

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Speaker 2: it's a good a good balance.

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Speaker 1: That's a good experience that that balances you out, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: You come home and that you've got someone that doesn't

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Speaker 1: care what you've done, that doesn't care that you're under pressure.

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Speaker 2: And they're hilarious. They're just so much fun.

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Speaker 1: Good fun. Okay, Well, get back to quite a few

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Speaker 1: topics we've got here. First, nations, people, over representation in

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Speaker 1: the in the prison system. Now, you also had a

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Speaker 1: portfolio Indigenous affairs I did early.

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Speaker 2: On in my ministry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah time, yes, yeah, what's your what's your thoughts on that,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's quite confronting.

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Speaker 2: This is a blight on Australia. The rate of Indigenous

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Speaker 2: incarceration in this country is appalling, and it's we're talking

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Speaker 2: about overrepresentation. You are far more likely now up in

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Speaker 2: jail if you're an Aboriginal Australian then if you are

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Speaker 2: visual Australian, and in the Act, that proportion is actually

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Speaker 2: the highest in the country. Really, that's partly because our

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Speaker 2: rate of imprisonment of non Indigenous people is actually much lower.

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Speaker 2: When we first built out O Jail, we had a

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Speaker 2: very low rate of imprisonment, and partly I think it's

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Speaker 2: because the judges didn't want to send people away and

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Speaker 2: they kept them in the community. As soon as we

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Speaker 2: have in the jail, the prison rates skyrocketed and in

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Speaker 2: the last five years we've actually managed to bring that

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Speaker 2: back down, but we haven't brought it down as much

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Speaker 2: for Indigenous people, and so that tells me we've got

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Speaker 2: a lot of work still to do. Because the programs

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Speaker 2: are putting in place are having an effect. They're reducing recidivism,

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Speaker 2: they're cutting the rate of imprisonment, we're giving the judges

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Speaker 2: alternative diversion pathways for people, but they're not working nearly

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Speaker 2: as well for Aboriginal people, and that is saying we've

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Speaker 2: got to do more work on Okay.

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Speaker 1: Is there when I'm dealing with Aboriginal people? Quite often

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Speaker 1: they say, when people are trying to find solutions for us,

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Speaker 1: why don't they come and ask us, is there anything

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Speaker 1: that's in the pipeline that you think might provide that

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Speaker 1: type of listening, finding out what needs to be done

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Speaker 1: and finding the solution.

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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, We've got to have more Aboriginal community controlled organizations.

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Speaker 2: That's the sort of tag you've put on them, but

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Speaker 2: running a lot of our programs, and certainly we are

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Speaker 2: trying to build them up, but we only had a

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Speaker 2: couple in the act. In recent years, we've started to

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Speaker 2: have more come in. They've got some really great ideas

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Speaker 2: on how to support people because the cultural stuff is

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Speaker 2: so important. It goes right back to the beginning where

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Speaker 2: young Aboriginal people, you know, they've got a distrustful relationship

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Speaker 2: with police for all the historical reasons we know that

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Speaker 2: leads to them coming into contact with the justice system.

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Speaker 2: More often they see a police officer, they give them

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Speaker 2: a bit of lip. The police react like, how dare

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Speaker 2: you challenge my authority. We've seen the examples that do

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Speaker 2: get captured sometimes unfortunately, and so there's this whole toxic

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Speaker 2: relationship that just escalates and Aboriginal people end up in

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Speaker 2: the system much more the non Aboriginal people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've I don't know what the answer. It's complex,

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Speaker 1: but it's just the ratio of Indigenous people, First Nations

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Speaker 1: people in their prisons. It's just it's sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I'm a little bit proud of is

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Speaker 2: in the Act. In the last sort of five years

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Speaker 2: we've seen nationally the increase in Indigenous people in go

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Speaker 2: by about ten percent. We've cut it by five percent.

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Speaker 2: So stuff starting to work, but it's still whatever. We've

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Speaker 2: got a goal to have the rate of imprisonment of

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Speaker 2: Indigenous people the same as non Indigenous people by twenty

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Speaker 2: thirty one, who are a long way from it. We've

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Speaker 2: got some hard work to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, it's something that's definitely worth working towards.

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Speaker 1: Another topic I want to talk about and I found this.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about this, and it's amazing. You work

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Speaker 1: in the field and you think you understand everything, and

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Speaker 1: then this issue was raised character references for child sex abuses.

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Speaker 1: It was mentioned to me when I was doing a

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Speaker 1: podcast series called Predatory with Madeline West about child the

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Speaker 1: sex offenders, and I think it was Andrew Carpenter, a

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Speaker 1: solicitor from South Australia, talked about character references for petiphile

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, yeah, well, everyone's got a right to

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Speaker 1: have a character reference. You get sense. But the nature

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Speaker 1: of pedophiles child sex offenders is that they groom people

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Speaker 1: and so they present it could be the scout leader,

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Speaker 1: it could be the minister at the church, it could

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Speaker 1: be the soccer coach. They groom people that they can

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Speaker 1: be trusted and that's how they pray on the young children.

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Speaker 1: So a character reference coming in when someone's been sentenced

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Speaker 1: for sexually abusing the child is almost like it shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be taken into account. This is my take on it.

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Speaker 1: I'll get yours shouldn't be taken into account because it

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Speaker 1: was almost part of the crime in itself that they

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Speaker 1: presented as a fine up scending citizen, So any character

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Speaker 1: reference should be discarded. That's my interpretation of it. I

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Speaker 1: know you've raised it in some of the documents. I've

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Speaker 1: got what's your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a really important topic you consider. It

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Speaker 2: came on to my radar because there's some young guys

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Speaker 2: here in New South Wales and winning Canberra who started

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Speaker 2: a campaign about this. Harrison James has sort of been

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Speaker 2: leading this and they exactly the point you're touching on is,

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Speaker 2: you know, the very nature of the offense is abusive

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Speaker 2: trust and as young people, the people in their lives

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Speaker 2: who are supposed to look after them have actually preyed

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Speaker 2: on that relationship, that trust to then abuse them. And

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Speaker 2: they comes back to that victim perspective we were talking

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Speaker 2: about earlier. They then have to sit there in court

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Speaker 2: and have people turn up and say, oh, this offender,

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Speaker 2: this pedophile, they're a good person for all these reasons,

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Speaker 2: and the victims in they go, hang on a second.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can see how confronting it would be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just totally offensive to them. So we're having

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Speaker 2: a look at that now, and in light of that

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Speaker 2: advocacy from Harrison and his colleagues, the legal community is

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Speaker 2: sort of trying to bring some yuans. So they're saying,

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Speaker 2: we get that argument, but at the same time, we

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Speaker 2: also need to think about, well, you know, is there

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Speaker 2: reability of prospects for this person and how does the

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Speaker 2: court take that into account? And we found ourselves with

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Speaker 2: the Bar Association and Harrison and his colleagues really at

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Speaker 2: loggerheads and we had a really interesting meeting two months

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Speaker 2: ago now where we got them all in a room together.

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Speaker 2: How that would an interesting It actually went really well

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Speaker 2: as a real credit. We had the police there, we

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Speaker 2: had some sexual assault services, we had Harrison and his colleagues,

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Speaker 2: we had the Director of Public Prosecutions, and we sat

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Speaker 2: around and said, well, how do we deal with this

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Speaker 2: where we make sure that we want to be able

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Speaker 2: to the court to have all the information, but we

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Speaker 2: deal with this impact on victims. We don't have an

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Speaker 2: answer just yet. It is like so many things in

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Speaker 2: the law, the nuances of a complex. But it was

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Speaker 2: so powerful to have everyone sit in a room together

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Speaker 2: and hear each other's perspectives and acknowledge the different things

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Speaker 2: and go away with some more ideas. So I've got

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Speaker 2: my department off now having a think about what the

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Speaker 2: legal answer looks like and we'll get something done on this.

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Speaker 1: We have to, Okay, I think the fact that you're

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Speaker 1: having discussions and it is hard to change the laws,

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Speaker 1: but laws need to be changed.

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Speaker 2: We need to evolve.

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Speaker 1: Society changes, values change, all sorts of things change. The

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Speaker 1: law needs to change change as well. Sometimes you've got

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Speaker 1: to drag the legal system along because it's enshrined in

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Speaker 1: legal tradition.

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Speaker 2: And that's a real challenge for me as a as

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Speaker 2: an attorney general. I am a reformer by natually. I

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Speaker 2: think we should be getting on making things better. And

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Speaker 2: this is a great example where the world has changed

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Speaker 2: and we understand better the impacts and people have got

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Speaker 2: a voice. But we also need to be mindful of

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Speaker 2: those really important premises in our legal system that make

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Speaker 2: sure that it is fair. Justice is done. There is

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Speaker 2: a presumption of innocence, people have a fair trial, all

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Speaker 2: of those really fundamental principles that we want to have.

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Speaker 2: How do we reform at the same time. And so

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Speaker 2: that's been a real challenge for me in this role,

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Speaker 2: is wanting to get on and get stuff done, but

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Speaker 2: then having really smart people push back and say, well,

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Speaker 2: there could be some unintended consequences here, and trying to

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Speaker 2: find the nuance in the right way through.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's like I think the law about no body

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Speaker 1: no parole for people convicted of the murder if the

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Speaker 1: body's not recovered, as in they're obviously pleaded, not guilty

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Speaker 1: being convicted, No body, no parole. I see that. I

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Speaker 1: see the impact when victims of homicide families don't get

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Speaker 1: their loved one back. I see the impact, and I

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Speaker 1: think that it's a worthwhile legislation for some. But there's

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Speaker 1: other cases where it won't work, and it makes it

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Speaker 1: very difficult. When I'm never a big believer in one

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Speaker 1: law fits all, I think there needs to be mandatory sentences.

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Speaker 1: Scares the hell out of me, because each case should

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Speaker 1: be judged on its own merits.

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Speaker 2: So let's say I know the judges find really hard

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Speaker 2: because the whole premise of a lot of our legal

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Speaker 2: system is that idea of individualized justice to recognize the many, many,

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Speaker 2: myriad circumstances that come before them. And then you see

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Speaker 2: cases being reported in the press and they get beaten up,

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Speaker 2: and the judges sat there and listen to all this

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Speaker 2: and they make this really nuanced and thoughtful decision. They're

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Speaker 2: smart people. They work their way through really carefully, and

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Speaker 2: then you get this very simplistic representation in the media

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Speaker 2: at times. There's been some really interesting studies done around

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Speaker 2: leniency right right, because often we see people saying that

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Speaker 2: that sentence was too lenient. The judges are out of touch.

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Speaker 2: And they've done examples where they taken ordinary citizens and

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Speaker 2: sat them down and actually briefed them in detail on

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Speaker 2: a case and then ask them what penalty they give.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that the people who are just

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Speaker 2: coming and they get all the circumstances and all the

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Speaker 2: pleads and all these kind of things, they're usually more

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Speaker 2: lenient than the judges. It's done studies of people on

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Speaker 2: these things. Is one in Victorian one in Tasmania. In

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Speaker 2: both cases the community were more lenient than the judges.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting, Shane, because I think the perception would

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Speaker 1: be if the community got the hold of that, we'd

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Speaker 1: sort this legal system out, we'd give.

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Speaker 2: A few lynchings out there exactly.

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Speaker 1: But that's a very interesting, interesting take on it and study.

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Speaker 2: Because they're objective and know they've sat down and measured

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Speaker 2: it and have had academics oversee them and really interesting

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Speaker 2: pieces of work.

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Speaker 1: And look, as you said, you said, judges are smart people.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I get amazed at what they can absorb in

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Speaker 1: a complex matner and then succinctly summarize what's happened. I

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Speaker 1: don't say I like all the judges, but they are

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Speaker 1: generally pretty smart people.

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Speaker 2: That's why they get there. I'll see about the case

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Speaker 2: in New South Wales, the Bruce Lehman defamation dry Justice

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Speaker 2: Michael Leevy came of his national if. People don't often

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Speaker 2: know who the judges are, but he's so succinctly made

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Speaker 2: his judgment. He talked about that notion of going back

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Speaker 2: to the lions Den for the hat and people just went, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's something that's well.

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Speaker 1: We watched all that play out. Were you heavily involved

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Speaker 1: in that tour?

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Speaker 2: We have been, and that's been a really difficult episode

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Speaker 2: in the Act because the trial took place in the Act,

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Speaker 2: high profile, very high profile, a lot of politics around it.

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Speaker 2: We've had to subsequently have a Board of Inquiry because

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Speaker 2: their allegations made by the police and the DPP about

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Speaker 2: each other's conduct. We then had issues where the head

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Speaker 2: of the Board of Inquiry gave the report to journalists,

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Speaker 2: they had to giving it to the government. The whole

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Speaker 2: thing has really tested the system in the Act and

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Speaker 2: I think exposed some cracks, but also given us some

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Speaker 2: we've seen where the system works and where we might

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Speaker 2: need to make some more reform.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think if mistakes have made if the thing

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Speaker 1: is we mentioned that in part one, we all make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: You'll make a mistake, I'll make them miss stake to day.

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Speaker 1: It's just human nature. But if we learn from its

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Speaker 1: mistakes and it can fix it, that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we won't delve into it. I imagine you

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Speaker 1: would have been in the thick of it when it

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Speaker 1: was going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously not in the actual trial itself, but the many,

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Speaker 2: many things that have flowed onwards. Yes, I've had to,

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Speaker 2: as the Attorney General, as the first law officers, as

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Speaker 2: we talked about in the first episode, take responsibility for

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Speaker 2: some of these things and try and pick our way

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Speaker 2: through sort of them out. You know, our Director of

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Speaker 2: Public Prosecutions lost his job, and then there's all the

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Speaker 2: fallout of recruiting a new one in a really political

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Speaker 2: environment and all these sort of things. It's been very challenging.

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Speaker 1: Okay, electronic monitoring, I think there is so much that

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Speaker 1: can be done in that area.

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Speaker 2: I know, when we're.

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Speaker 1: All going through the COVID times, we could track everyone

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Speaker 1: in the country, everywhere people went. I think it can

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Speaker 1: be Electronic monitoring can be used so in so many

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Speaker 1: different ways that we could make a huge difference on

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Speaker 1: the way that we prevent crime and deal with crime.

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Speaker 1: What's your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, the ACT is actually the only jurisdiction in

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Speaker 2: Australia that does not have it. We're currently working on

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Speaker 2: putting it in place. I think it's got a lot

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Speaker 2: of possibilities. It's also again the nuances of it are

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Speaker 2: really interesting. I think people think it could be a panacea.

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Speaker 2: The work we're doing at the moment to build up

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Speaker 2: a system to implement it, we're having to think very

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Speaker 2: carefully about well, what type of people do you apply

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Speaker 2: it to, what's a suitable crime offending type, what point

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Speaker 2: in people's journey through the justice system. People see a

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Speaker 2: lot of potential around domestic and family violence particularly and

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Speaker 2: the idea that you can have a bracelet on the

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Speaker 2: offender and potentially the victim also carrying a chip or something.

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Speaker 2: But even within that, you know, we're talking to the

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Speaker 2: domestic violence services some of the victims they don't want

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Speaker 2: to be carrying a chip around the whole time, and

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Speaker 2: this questions rule, are you creating a false sense of security?

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Speaker 2: The idea with that is, you know, when the perpetrator

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Speaker 2: gets close, alarm goes off. That's premise then on having

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Speaker 2: the police resources, the police turned up in time. Otherwise

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Speaker 2: you are creating this false sense of security. So there's

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of nuance in it. I think it's

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Speaker 2: got enormous potential, but it's probably, like all these things,

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Speaker 2: not as black and white as you know you might

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Speaker 2: think it is.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Hannah Clark's parents, Lloyd and Sue Hannah

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Speaker 1: from Queensland the terrible tragedy, the domestic violence where Hannah

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Speaker 1: and her three children were set alight in the car,

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Speaker 1: and I asked that question. And the way that they've

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Speaker 1: got on with her life is just amazes me. This

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Speaker 1: is how people overcome adversity. But we talked about electronic

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Speaker 1: monitoring and they lived and proved that they saw what

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Speaker 1: was going on with Hannah and the partner. And they

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Speaker 1: made the point that if she had if he had

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Speaker 1: a bracelon when it became obvious, like yeah, domestic domestic situations,

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Speaker 1: a domestic violence order taken out or protection order taken out.

436
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 1: People often say it's only worth the paper written on,

437
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 1: which is quite right if people aren't compliant to it.

438
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 1: But if he had a bracelet on, and it doesn't

439
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,640
Speaker 1: have to be a bracelet, it could be a ring

440
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 1: these days, who knows. There's so many different ways that

441
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,360
Speaker 1: it could be could be done. And Hannah had one,

442
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: and if he came within a five kilometer the radius,

443
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 1: she'd be notified, or if he took the monitor off,

444
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 1: she'd be notified. It would have given her peace of mind.

445
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: And it's a system to I think it's something that

446
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 1: really we should push. I think it's a way of

447
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 1: giving comfort to the victims. And I take on board

448
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 1: what you're saying that the victims might necessarily want to

449
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: wear something that's tracking all their movements, but they should

450
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 1: have that choice.

451
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 2: I think is that have that choice?

452
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 1: And I've also had people say, well, it's resource intensive

453
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: and all that, but that's where I wind it back to.

454
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: During COVID, we seem to seem to work out how

455
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: to monitor people people's movements, So I think there's something

456
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: something definitely there.

457
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: I also and I don't have resources intensive thing. I mean, yes,

458
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 2: but no, if we can save somebody's life. YEA, well,

459
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 2: resources don't really should spend that. Money don't really can't.

460
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 1: Come into it. And it's not at the moment that

461
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: restraining all that has taken out that you get the

462
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: bracelet put on your ankle. But if you're saying the

463
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 1: propensity to ignore the conditions of it, maybe one or

464
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 1: two strikes and you've got a bracelet.

465
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,199
Speaker 2: The great risk though, as we see in these domestic

466
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 2: violence homicides often very rapid escalation. It's working at that

467
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 2: point intervened. And this is the bit we're trying to

468
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: think through at the moment, is well, what's the right

469
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: way to put in place? What's the intervention points? Yeah,

470
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: they're the bits that so we don't want to create

471
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 2: that false sense of security.

472
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Coercive control is another

473
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 1: legislation that's coming in and I think that will be

474
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: a powerful legislation that once police understand how to use

475
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: it properly. And we've spoken on the podcast about its

476
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: coercive control as if the partner it might be physical abuse,

477
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: but it might be controlling your finances, who you speak to,

478
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: access to your phone, that type of thing that is

479
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: considered domestic violence. It's not the physical violence. I think

480
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of improvements that can

481
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: be made in that area as well.

482
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we have a thing called the Standing Council

483
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: of Attorneys General, and that's all the attorneys around the country.

484
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: We issued some principles last year and what coercive control is.

485
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 2: Because I don't think it's very well understood yet, people

486
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: beginning to understand it much more clearly. We've got a

487
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: lot of community education to do. We've now seen a

488
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 2: couple of jurisdictions have made coursive control and offense a

489
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: standalone offense in the act, it's not at the moment.

490
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: It is part of the definition of domestic and family violence.

491
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: So you can get a restraining order based on coursive control,

492
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: and then if someone breaches the restraining order that becomes

493
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: the criminal offense. There is a suggestion we should make

494
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: it a standalone offense. Now a couple of jurisdictions have

495
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: done it. We've opted not to at this point, but

496
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 2: we are watching very closely and seeing how that pans out.

497
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: Because one of the issues with concursive control is what's

498
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: called misidentification and often not often there are circumstances where

499
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: people get identified as the perpetrator rather than the victim

500
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 2: after a wholer coercive control. They then lash out and

501
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: they're seen as the perpetrator of domestic violence, and you're

502
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 2: getting perverse outcomes. And so there's a really I think

503
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: fierce debate going on amongst domestic violence experts and advocates

504
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: and service providers about how we work our way through this.

505
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: And the advice we've been given at the act at

506
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: the moment is we should not criminalize coercive control until

507
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: we have better community education, better police training, otherwise we're

508
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 2: going to see the wrong people being locked up. Okay, I.

509
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: Can't speak to community education, but police training is like,

510
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: if you bring legislation in, we need to know how

511
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: to use it if we're in the police. So i'd

512
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: take your point there. Back on electronic monitoring a substitute

513
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: for people going to prison, what potentially, Yes, that could

514
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: be you've got to be homed by eight o'clock because

515
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 1: you're normally committing your fences at night.

516
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 2: And yeah, there's a range of ways you can use them.

517
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: Monitor you can use it for you can put geographic

518
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: boundaries on it, you can time, curfuse on it. There's

519
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: a range of things you can do. And again that's

520
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: for me, the really interesting part of it presenting the

521
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: judges with an alternative, because one of the things I've

522
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: had conversations with judges is they say, well, I don't

523
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: necessarily want to send this person away, but I haven't

524
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: got good alternatives. And that's where we've tried to really

525
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: work on these alternatives in the A Sity, things like

526
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: the drug court, the circle sentencing, various other models, because

527
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: the judges isn't there thinking well, I've got to do

528
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: something to this person. There's got to be accountability, there's

529
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 2: got to be some punishment, there's got to be time

530
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: to learn their lesson, whatever the thinking is. But that

531
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: can look like many different things.

532
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've got to start looking at that

533
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: way of approaching that. There can be a lot of

534
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: the positives that come from that. Then put the restrictions, so, yeah,

535
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: protect the community if that's one of the risks, but

536
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: also put the restrictions on the person so they don't

537
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: fall back into old habits.

538
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: And particularly interesting for female offenders, we know that women

539
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: of course have much more family responsibility. If they go

540
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: to jail. It has a much bigger impact on the

541
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: family because they so often are the primary care giver

542
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: in a household. They keep the household together. If we

543
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: can have a female detainee at home with the ankle

544
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 2: bracelet rather than in custody, you know, likely the kids

545
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: are going to be a lot better off, the household

546
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 2: is going to be running better. I don't want to

547
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: get into gender stereotypes here, but this is the reality

548
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 2: of many households in our country.

549
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: I think we don't fully appreciate. Whenever we're talking about

550
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: prisons chance, the conversation tends to go towards the male inmates,

551
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: and we do have a lot of female inmates as well.

552
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: But I understand what you're saying taking away from the family,

553
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: that the impact it's going to have. If you send

554
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: a woman that's the primary care for the children at home,

555
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: you've disrupted, disrupted these kids and probably possibly set them

556
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: on the path that they're going to follow their mother.

557
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they will potentially have to go into foster

558
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 2: care and all the other things that you know, the

559
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: disruptions that happened in kids life. Where As if that

560
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: mother can serve her sentence at home, but subject to

561
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: a curfew, are subject to various other restrictions. That family

562
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: unit's going to be, in many cases a lot better.

563
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: Off keeping keeping people out of prison too. From a

564
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: financial perspective, like, how much does it cost? Are you

565
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: aware how much it costs to keep an inmate in

566
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: prison for a year.

567
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've just got some new data in the Act.

568
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: It's one hundred and ninety eight thousand dollars a year,

569
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: give or take a little bit perate per inmate per year.

570
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: It's a huge amount of money. And you think about

571
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: the things we could do alternatively with that money, particularly

572
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: in investing in the services that will actually break that

573
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: cycle of crime that we've been talking about. You know,

574
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: there's actually a really economically rational case. If you just

575
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: want to be a bean counter, these measures make sense.

576
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: We've just done an evaluation of the Drug and Alcohol

577
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: court that I was speaking about earlier. It was done

578
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: by KPMG, So again it's been done by your hard

579
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: headed accountant types, and they've come back and said it's

580
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 2: saving us more money than it's costing us to run it.

581
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: Imagine yeah, okay, what you could do with that type

582
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: of type of money invested in Someone pointing them in

583
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: the right direction. I think if people understood that. I

584
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: don't think people fully underappreciate, appreciate the money that goes

585
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: in the keeping someone in custody.

586
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: And that's that cost that I just gave you one

587
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: hundred and eight. That's just being in jail. You've got

588
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: all the other steps, the police costs for investigations, the

589
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: costs of the court system, and all the things go

590
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: around that. Let alone the cost of the impact on victims.

591
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: Now that's saying you can't that's way hard hearted. It's

592
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: not about the dollar figure. But if you stack up

593
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 2: the cost there's the ones we can measure, and then

594
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: there's the immeasurable costs that are actually perhaps the most

595
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: important ones.

596
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: I love food for thought. There isn't there definitely.

597
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: It's what keeps me awake at night times.

598
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: Also for a run.

599
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it motivate you to get back into it, though,

600
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: because you can get you know, if we can make

601
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 2: these changes.

602
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: But when we break it down, it's exciting what can

603
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: be done, potentially can be done. And it's good that

604
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: you come back with the complexities of it because everything's

605
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: not black and white and we'll go, oh, this is

606
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: simple there's always other little nuances there that make it

607
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult. Lived experience form of prisoners.

608
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: You talk about people that have got out of prison

609
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: or gone down the path, been employed, or doing something

610
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: to help other people because they've got that lived experience

611
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: and they can explain that. I am a big believer

612
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: in that. I've had some very impressive people here that

613
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: have had a horrific criminal record, but I know if

614
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: they went and spoke to kids that were heading off

615
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: in the direction, or even adult inmates, there'd be some respect.

616
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: Then they would listen to what they've got to say,

617
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: what's your thoughts there?

618
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: There's a lot of potential here, and I've seen an

619
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: example recently the Justice Reforming Initiative run by Mini City.

620
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, a great great friend of the podcast.

621
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: Yes, they've got a lived experience speaker program and they've

622
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 2: just started it. In the act. We recently had an

623
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: event talking about justice reinvestment and one of the members

624
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: of that program came along, actually two of them came along,

625
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: and their stories were so powerful, so interesting, and they

626
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 2: really made the case so effectively. You know, we had

627
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: one fellow there, he'd been in and out of custody,

628
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: for years. He'd started drinking and taking drugs at a

629
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: really young age. And he told his whole story about

630
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: how he progressed through the system, and he said it

631
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: wasn't until he got put into the drug and alcohol

632
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: court did he start. He said, when I went into it,

633
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: I was real cynical. He said, I'd seen it all.

634
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: He's only thirty, but he had fifteen years in and

635
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: out of the system half his life. And he said,

636
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: but I wented this drugger. And he said, I was

637
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: skeptical at the start. I didn't reckon it was going

638
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: to work. But it did. And he was standing there,

639
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: really nicely dressed, looking very sharp, telling us about how

640
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: he's back with his girlfriend now, he was studying, he

641
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: had career goals that he wanted to achieve, so that

642
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: lived experience style. It can be and it can also

643
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: inspire others. You know. For me to sit there and

644
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: tell someone, hey, you get your life back on track,

645
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: I've got no credibility.

646
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: That's the thing. That's the thing. If someone's walk the

647
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: path that these people are heading towards, and they're coming

648
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: in and going, hey, look, I'm telling you it's not

649
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: the way to go. This is what you can do.

650
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: It gives them potentially to turn turn lives around. I'm

651
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: a big believer in that. I'd like to see. Yeah,

652
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking the ACT. I think across the board,

653
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: like people that have been to prison, working back in

654
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: the prisons, or working with people after they've got out

655
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: of prison and help pointing them in the right direction.

656
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: And we've got some great peer workers out there in

657
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: some of our services in the ACT and the drug

658
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: and alcohol services. Again, people who've been down the path

659
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: of having addiction. When they talk to someone else, you know,

660
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: there's a real solidarity, a sense of it's truer to.

661
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: The yeah, and that that credibility.

662
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: What's your thoughts on?

663
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: Like we've talked to what goes on in prison when

664
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: people are at least from prison, that's that danger period

665
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: and finding employment doing something worthwhile. What's your what's your

666
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: thoughts here? Because I think we can look in isolation

667
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: what happens in prison, but it's what they come into

668
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: when they come out of prison quite often dictates whether

669
00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: they're going to go back inside.

670
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: Now you spot on it's such a critical time, you know,

671
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: it's this real fork in the road you come out

672
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: do you go back to your mate's place, start taking

673
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: drugs with them and doing all the things, or do

674
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: you go down a different path. We started a program

675
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: in the Act called Justice Housing, and part of the

676
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: reason we did that was because one reason people weren't

677
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: even getting parole was because they didn't have a stable

678
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: address to go to. For all the reasons they've lost

679
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: their tendency, family didn't want to see them, their relationship

680
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: was broken down because they're in custody. And so we've

681
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: actually created dedicated properties where when you come out, you're

682
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: entitled to go into these for sort of up to

683
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: three five months, this kind of time period, not a

684
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: long term homent. It's sort of a landing pad. The

685
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: service providers come in so we know where people are

686
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: even though they've been released and they're free to do

687
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: their thing. They've got a landing pad where they can

688
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: start to rebuild their lives from Practical measures like that

689
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: help people in that fork in the road. Having somewhere

690
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: stable to leave is such a powerful starting point. How

691
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: you found that play out, It's gone really well. Again,

692
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: We've just evaluated are evaluating all these things so I

693
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: can make the case to Treasury because that's how government works.

694
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: I've got to make the case to Treasury to keep

695
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: investing in these things, and you know, the evaluation is

696
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: come back on this again really positively, showing that it's

697
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: giving people that platform to build from.

698
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well again, And I just keep repeating myself, but

699
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: it just makes sense if a system's not working, if

700
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: we acknowledge we've got this high recidivism, right, we've got

701
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: to change something.

702
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: The other area that I think is really interesting to

703
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: talk about his mental health. I was also the mental

704
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: Health Minister for a while while I was Corrections minis.

705
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: It's a really cross crossovers in the Act. We've only

706
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: got eight or nine ministers and we cover a whole

707
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: gamut of things, so we've always got multiple portfolios, but

708
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: it gives you some opportunities to cross them over. Have

709
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: a look. The police in the Act are telling us

710
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: now that thirty to forty percent of their callouts are

711
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: mental health related and having it, frankly, a police officer

712
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: turned up to a mental health crisis is not the

713
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: best way to approach it, and the police are that'll

714
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: be the first ones to say that, you know. So

715
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,239
Speaker 2: we've been able to do some really interesting things. One

716
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: of the ones we created was a model called PACER.

717
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: It's a police ambulance clinician emergency response is what it

718
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: stands for. We've created these little teams and it's a

719
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: model we got from the UK. We didn't invent. Others

720
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: are doing it, but you've got it. When the call

721
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: comes in, you've got a car that goes out and

722
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: it's got a police officer in it, paramedic and a

723
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: mental health clinician because they are the three things you

724
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: need in that environment. And most times, and ideally the

725
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: mental health clinician will take the lead because that's their

726
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: skill set.

727
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: Well, with police turning up quite often that can confront

728
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: in the mental health episode or incident where police turn

729
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: up in their uniforms, it escalates, it escalates.

730
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in this environment, the mental health will go

731
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: the lead, but you know, if it turns violent, you've

732
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: got the police officer there with the skills, the training

733
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: and the equipment to potentially interven in that. And so

734
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 2: often a mental health incident involves physical harm, if someone's

735
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: self harming or whatever, the paramedics there as well, and

736
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: so it proves to be this really effective different model,

737
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: and it means people are not any up in the

738
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: agency department. They're getting treatment at their home maybe where

739
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: they're comfortable. Again, it's a different way of thinking about things.

740
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: And the police love it.

741
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: I was going to I'm looking at it from a

742
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: former police officer. I think that'll be fantastic.

743
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: I've gone in the car with these guys at times.

744
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: You know under lights, you know that's find having. They've

745
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: got the skills to drive under lights to get there urgently,

746
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: and it's almost a love and you sit in the

747
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: car gender the stuff and like this is such a

748
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: great model. We so love working like this because it

749
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 2: again it brings a different way of thinking to how

750
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: to deal with what is a crisis situation that police

751
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: are not the best equipped for. The police was sit

752
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: there and say I don't have mental health training, that's

753
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: not my giit.

754
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: And look, we've had situations and jobs that I've been

755
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: involved in where there's been mental health issues and if

756
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: someone's been shot and killed. One of the ones I

757
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: did prior to leaving the police, Courtney Topic that was

758
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: having a mental health episode and the police turned up

759
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: and she was shot and killed. She was carrying the knife,

760
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: shot and killed. Within forty five seconds. I think it

761
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: was just escalated. And on the back of that the inquest,

762
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: there was a lot of recommendations came in about need

763
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: for training police in mental health issues and that. But

764
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: that's what you've described is taking it to another level

765
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: and having a dedicated practitioner there with the police when

766
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: they're responding. And I know police don't like responding to

767
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: mental health issues. I can remember it from my early days,

768
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: from years gone by, and I think there was a

769
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: lot less when I was in uniform than there is today.

770
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: And it's not the type of job you want to

771
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: want to go to. No police have been trained to

772
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: do us as to other things. They're not trained mental

773
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: health clinicians. You know, we could free up a lot

774
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: of police resources. There's always a debate about it, and

775
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: we're having one at the moment in the act. Are

776
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: there enough police If we could take this thirty or

777
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: forty percent of callouts out of the police's responsibility or

778
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: some police responsibility in these pacers teams bit are both,

779
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: that's a whole lot of police resources to focus on

780
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: the things police really should be doing.

781
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

782
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've earned the right to comment on policing.

783
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: But there's so many things that we should be doing

784
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: and other things that we get allocated to do that

785
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: really shouldn't fit in that role of a police officer.

786
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: There are a lot of.

787
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: Different things you're working on, So is do you have

788
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: a vision where this is going to go? Where all

789
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: the different things that you're working towards.

790
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: I think what I'd really love to see is this

791
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: notion of justice reinvestment embedded into government policy, that sense

792
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 2: of spend the money up front to try and avoid

793
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: the crime, rather than just building bigger and bigger prisons.

794
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 2: As we've talked about, prisons are expensive, they're not great

795
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: places to be. The cycle of crime continues. Having a

796
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: more nuanced and thoughtful conversation about how to tackle crime,

797
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: that's my goal.

798
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: Delving into politics, do you think it needs when you're

799
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 1: talking issues like this, can it be capable of having

800
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: the bipartisan approach A system needs to come in?

801
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 2: It is possible. You look at something like the Justice

802
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: reform and isitative which is a great model here in Australia,

803
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: and there's some terrific people involved in that. It's people

804
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: from both sides of politics, all sides of politics ex police,

805
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 2: ex judges, people who know about it. It says to

806
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: me there is scope there to build this up and

807
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: to have good people come forward and say there's a

808
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: better way to do it.

809
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, we can get that possibly all working

810
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: together towards it. Bringing it back to what we're talking

811
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: about very early in the piece that these election you've

812
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: got an election coming up, yeah, just a few weeks away. Now,

813
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: law in order, it's not going to be the big

814
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: talking point, al it is.

815
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: The Liberal Party are running a pretty strong law and

816
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: order campaign. You know, there's about more police and we've

817
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: just allocated a whole lot of new police in the

818
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: last budget, because you do need to grow to the

819
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: number of police. We've got fast growing town we've got

820
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: new suburbs coming on stream. We do need the police resources.

821
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: But my argument is we can't just be doing that.

822
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: We have got to meet those needs and there's a

823
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: demand there, and we've got to build a new police

824
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: station in the new area. Those kinds of things, they're

825
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: just practical, ordinary government things, But that can't be the

826
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: only answer.

827
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest things, and a little

828
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: bit off topic for what we've been focusing on, but

829
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: one of the biggest things. The problem policing have got

830
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: across the country is we can't attract people to policing.

831
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: I look at that and I don't know why. Maybe

832
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: it's just a shift in I think COVID didn't help,

833
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: like it was all the police were doing very unpopular work.

834
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: But when we talk about increasing policing, I think it's

835
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: quality over quantity that is most important. If you get

836
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: a good police officer, and I can only say from

837
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: my career whether they be in uniform or a detective

838
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: or in a specialist area, one good police officer can

839
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: make a world of difference. I know when New South

840
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: Wales elections when they said we're going to increase police

841
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: and I had a couple of issues with police officers

842
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: that weren't performing. It took me to the PMO as

843
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: in the psychological issues, and it was said to me,

844
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: just in a fra away comment that what happens when

845
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 1: whenever we have a state election and Laura in order

846
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: becomes an issue, someone's promising we're going to bring in

847
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: more police, so they accept police that were initially rejected

848
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: and then and then it's like this, you could see

849
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: the cycle. Okay, state election, we've increased police and then

850
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: you can see the ones that have created problems in

851
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: the cops perhaps shouldn't have got the job in the

852
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: first shouldn't have got the job in the first place,

853
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: rejected first up. But let's just lower that bar a

854
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: little bit further. So, Yeah, I think it's a very

855
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: rewarding job policing. But yeah, the fact that we can't

856
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: can't attract attract people.

857
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people probably perceive it as a pretty

858
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: tough job because there's a touched on earlier. Police are

859
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: going to things that frankly, the rest of the community

860
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: should be pretty grateful. I don't have to deal with

861
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: worst day in people's lives, horrendous violence, horrendous abuse of others.

862
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, it's don't need me to tell you this,

863
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: I'm self, But I think people do perceive it as

864
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: a potentially tough job. But I think it's also a

865
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: very rewarding job. Again, like being a corrections officer, you

866
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: can make such a difference for the community.

867
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's my eyes were opened up to the

868
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: quality of the people that were in corrections and the

869
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: work work that they were doing. But I think in

870
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: policing them, maybe even corrections everyone is so accountable in

871
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: this day and age, Like as a young police officer,

872
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: now you make a mistake and you become a YouTube

873
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: sensation on social media and you've done something. When I

874
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: was going through you have to learn somehow you make

875
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: a mistake and someone and say that's not the way

876
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: we do it, this is how to do it.

877
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: It's interesting to say that we had the debate a

878
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: couple of years ago about bringing body cameras for our

879
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: police in the AD, and I was a real supporter

880
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 2: of it in both directions, you know, because you also

881
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: see police being accused of things they didn't do, and

882
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: then there's also times where you do get people that

883
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: go beyond what they should be doing and preach the

884
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: protocols or whatever. And the beauty of the body camera

885
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: is it just there's no argument the tapes there and

886
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: you know what happened. Yeah.

887
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: Look, I would like I think I'm ahead of my time.

888
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: I use my phone, but look where that got me

889
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: record recording on my phone. Maybe I was just a

890
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: head of my time. I agree like body cameras would

891
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: be good. But what we've got, the adjustment that we've

892
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: got to make for that is that we've got to

893
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: be able to present all the evidence and otherwise not

894
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: this stunted evidence that gets presented at court where everyone's

895
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, I said this. He said that if I'm

896
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: talking to a crook on the street or whatever, police think,

897
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,959
Speaker 1: I communicate in a level that they understand. So if

898
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm talking to someone that's likes to swear, I'll throw

899
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: some swear words in there just to get that communication.

900
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: As if I'm talking to a politician, I'll talk talk differently,

901
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, like that's.

902
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: The way context matters. That's the way that.

903
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: You I forgot you're a politician when I said that,

904
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: But that's the way you communicate as a police officer. Now,

905
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: if we're all wearing body cameras, I think we've got

906
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: to Yeah, the courts have got to accept that. We've

907
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: got to loosen things up a little bit. But you know,

908
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: sometimes you've got to talk in a way that you

909
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: can get that communication across. And I think it'll save

910
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: a lot of problems. Certainly, when they bought in recording interviews.

911
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: That was as a detective there and some of the

912
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: old school detectives where we used to do it on

913
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: the type rise. What they're going to have a camera

914
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: and we're going to record what we're saying in the

915
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: inter room. Interview room sacred, we can't let people in

916
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: there with a camera. But that was the best thing

917
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: that saved us so much court court time, that you

918
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: in an interview room, you put on the camera and

919
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: start recording. So yeah, it might be a step in

920
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: the step in the right direction. Is there a resistance

921
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: from police on it.

922
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: No, I think they were pretty keen. Yeah, it was

923
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: just working through even the legislative issues around privacy and

924
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: how could we use in some of those points you

925
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: were touching on as well. But I think most people

926
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: saw that it was going to work well for everybody involved.

927
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: It just it clears things up and it takes away

928
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: some of the activity so that when you turn up

929
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: a court later, the context often is captured there.

930
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like turning up I'm thinking for domestic violence incidents,

931
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: like turning up and having having a camera there. But

932
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: it's that that privacy issue and that but the world

933
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: has changed that much. You walk out in the street,

934
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: CCTV cameras catching every every movement, everything that you do.

935
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: So maybe we're just going to adjust just our thinking

936
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: that way.

937
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: It's the same as a politician. We all saw Barnabie

938
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: Joyce on the footpath in camera a few months ago.

939
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: You know, as a politician you've got everyone's got a

940
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: camera out there, so we're all, you know, accountabilities up

941
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: for everybody.

942
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, see before like Barnaby Joyce sat with a would

943
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: have just fallen into folklore all that time there.

944
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: But now, yeah, I do enjoy the Australie sense of

945
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: human I don't know how much you followed that one,

946
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: but you people then went down and chalked out body

947
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 2: images on the ground on the footpaths justs near my place.

948
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 2: It's right in the middle of where it happened, and

949
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: so you know, I did enjoy that. People always had

950
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: a bit of a laugh about it.

951
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: Well, I think we've got to keep keep our sense

952
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: of humor. I take it that just in the conversations,

953
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: we've had a lot of heavy subjects that we're talking about,

954
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: but you've got to be able to laugh at things

955
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: and see some fun fun in the world, otherwise it

956
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: can just weigh you down.

957
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: There's nothing like a bit of dark humor to get

958
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: through some moments as well. I'm sure it's pretty prevalent

959
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: and the police. You hear it from when I talk

960
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: to doctors and the like. You know, there's stuff that, yeah,

961
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: you point around, it'd be seemed pretty poorly out of context.

962
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: But it's a coping mechanism.

963
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. That's how I survived in the cops

964
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: and other people survived that long. You've got to have

965
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 1: a laugh when we would turn up with a homicide scene,

966
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: like we might be there for twenty four hours, we

967
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: might have slept for forty eight hours, and you're there

968
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: and you're talking. It's cold, and you'd say something and

969
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: I might say something.

970
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: To you and you laugh or whatever.

971
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: You have to be wary because then if that's taken

972
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: out of context, you're standing there smiling as you're standing

973
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: over a dead body. And I used to I was

974
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: told when I was a young homicide detective. Yeah, just

975
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: keep the bear in mind. Cameras are watching you the

976
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: whole time. And I would pass it, pass that advice on.

977
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's an interesting world, the world of crime.

978
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: And I've got to say, Shane, I do like and

979
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: that's what excited me about you coming on the podcast.

980
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: I like the way that you're looking at it. I

981
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: don't want this tough talking chest bleeding we're going to

982
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: crack down on crime because I personally don't think it

983
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: always works.

984
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: Now there, You spoke very earlier about being smart on crime,

985
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 2: not tough on crime, and that's actually what it's about.

986
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 2: It's not about letting people off, it's not about having

987
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: no accountability. It's about how do we make our community

988
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: safety in the long run. And what I like about

989
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: the work we're doing in the Act, and we're doing

990
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: a lot of evaluations around it. The data is starting

991
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: to prove it, and that's I think we're going back

992
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: to the other conversation about how do we get by

993
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: paths and support on this. People believe in things they

994
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: can see.

995
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: You show them the figures and how it works, show them.

996
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 2: What's possible, and I reckon most people get on board that.

997
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: That's a bit of doing something like today where we

998
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: get a chance to talk about it. People listening, they

999
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 2: hear some different takets, perhaps what they've heard before. It's

1000
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: a slow journey, but I think we can build it

1001
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: up into a different way of doing.

1002
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: It well having that discussion. That's why I like to

1003
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,959
Speaker 1: talk about these things so I catch killers we can Yeah,

1004
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: we could just go down a dark hole every week,

1005
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: but people get sick of it and we've got to Yeah,

1006
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: we've got to look at ways of ways of fighting crime.

1007
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: And it opened my eye is up so much after

1008
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: I left the cops because I wanted to fight. I

1009
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: still wanted to fight crime. Like my career ended quickly.

1010
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: But I'm finding speaking to people like yourself and just

1011
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: learning about different ways of approaching things that can make

1012
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: you huge difference. So I got to say, I like you,

1013
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: so good luck in your good luck in your election.

1014
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: I can't vote for you. It's not that I'm not

1015
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: in that electorate, but good luck for it. If things

1016
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: go well for you, Where do you see your future?

1017
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: You're staying in politics, You've still got the energy for it.

1018
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: As I said, you've got to commit for the whole

1019
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: term and you sign up. So we have four year

1020
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: terms in the asy Tea. So I'd love to be

1021
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: the attorney again. I think there's a lot of we're

1022
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: still to be done in this space. I feel like

1023
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: we're still betting it down and there's really interesting research

1024
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: coming out all the time. There's new ways of doing it.

1025
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: We spoke earlier about bringing more Aboriginal controlled organizations in

1026
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: so there's a lot of unfinished business there. The fire

1027
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: is definitely in the ability to get on with it.

1028
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: Well, good on you, and it's nice to have a

1029
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: chat with someone that's in there that that can make

1030
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: that can make a difference. So thank you so much

1031
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: for coming on I Catch Killers.

1032
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: It's been great to be here. Thanks a lot cheers.

1033
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: I found the real privilege to sit down and have

1034
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: a discussion on I Catch Killers with a current Attorney general.

1035
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: It's the highest law officer in the state. And what

1036
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: I liked about Shame was his attitude to fixing the

1037
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: problem of crime, thinking outside the square a little bit,

1038
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: and I like his ideas and for a politician, I've

1039
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: got to say I quite like him.