Speaker 1: I think one of the first times Pine Gap came
Speaker 1: to public prominence, an activist I know who lives in Darwin,
Speaker 1: decided to go and take a look. Crept into the location,
Speaker 1: took a photograph and it had five discs. That caused
Speaker 1: a bit of a controversy with the government back in
Speaker 1: the seventies because they were saying there was only two.
Speaker 1: So it's very interesting how secretive the place has been
Speaker 1: right from the get go.
Speaker 2: From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven AM.
Speaker 2: Once upon a time Australians were told Pine Gap was
Speaker 2: a space base, then a weather station. But now of
Speaker 2: course we know the installation deep in the Northern Territory
Speaker 2: outpack is a US spy base, which isn't say that
Speaker 2: it's any less secretive. We still don't know a huge
Speaker 2: amount about what goes on there. We do know that
Speaker 2: it's likely America's biggest offshore spy base, that it gathers
Speaker 2: critical intelligence about current conflicts, and now we know that
Speaker 2: it's undergone a rapid expansion. Today, editor of Declassified Australia
Speaker 2: and contributor to The Saturday Paper, Peter Crono on how
Speaker 2: he discovered the Bass New technology and what it means
Speaker 2: for Australia's safety. That's coming up after the break, Peter.
Speaker 2: Before we get into what you've uncovered, let's talk about
Speaker 2: pine Gap itself. Why is there a US intelligence base
Speaker 2: in the middle of the Australian outback. Where does the
Speaker 2: story start?
Speaker 1: Pine Gap is a satellite signal receiving station. It's jointly
Speaker 1: run at the moments by the United States and Australia.
Speaker 3: Mister Holt speaks to the American Vice President, mister Humphrey
Speaker 3: via the Space Track network and then tells the cloud
Speaker 3: that Australia was benefiting in many ways because it was
Speaker 3: linked with America in space research.
Speaker 1: So pine Gap was I think proposed in sixty six
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 3: A network of complex machinery to track American satellites in
Speaker 3: the effort to conquer space.
Speaker 1: It's located about fifteen kilometers in a direct line from
Speaker 1: Alice Springs in central Australia, and Australia gets access to
Speaker 1: some of the information that comes into the satellite dishes there,
Speaker 1: but it is essentially a US base. They basically fund
Speaker 1: it and it's for their purposes.
Speaker 4: Today's globes bins within an invisible network built and maintained
Speaker 4: by the United States of America. It is our Defense
Speaker 4: Communications System DCS.
Speaker 1: By nineteen seventy it was being used to scoop up
Speaker 1: North Vietnamese communications in Cambodia and in Vietnam, trying to
Speaker 1: locate their supply lines.
Speaker 5: Thank God for far God your order, you want the
Speaker 5: player road.
Speaker 1: After that, it was used, for example for the Yomkapur War,
Speaker 1: but that was done without telling Australian government at the time,
Speaker 1: and it leaked out through would you believe a journalist?
Speaker 1: So you know, the Prime Minister Whitlam eventually found out
Speaker 1: and went ballistic, and so it's been a controversial and
Speaker 1: secretive spying location. There was quite a few protests in
Speaker 1: the eighties. In ninety eighty three, the Women's Camp was
Speaker 1: held out there with Indigenous women and women from all
Speaker 1: around Australia.
Speaker 6: We the Undersigned Australian People demand the removal of the
Speaker 6: cia NSA Pine Gap base and all other pario military
Speaker 6: installations on our soil.
Speaker 1: And that was really one of the biggest and earliest
Speaker 1: public revelations really of what Pine Gap was up to,
Speaker 1: and just in my sort of life, that's when I
Speaker 1: first really heard more about it, so I've been interested
Speaker 1: and I've followed it, and the numbers and purposes of
Speaker 1: the satellite dishes there have just increased over the years.
Speaker 2: So, Peter, tell me, what did you discover about what's
Speaker 2: happening out there at the moment.
Speaker 1: Well, as a nosy journalist, I take a look at
Speaker 1: things like Google Earth images of various locations such as
Speaker 1: Pine Gap, and noticed there'd been a bit of land
Speaker 1: clearing going on. I was back in twenty twenty one
Speaker 1: when I first took a look, and I thought, oh, well,
Speaker 1: maybe it's bushfires, maybe they're building a new power station,
Speaker 1: could be absuming pool. But I kept an eye on it,
Speaker 1: and what I found is that on the western boundary
Speaker 1: they cleared fourteen nectares, so it's not a small spot.
Speaker 1: And they put three big dots from space looks like
Speaker 1: a dot on the Google Earth image, but the three
Speaker 1: large concrete pads, and I thought, oh, they're building something.
Speaker 1: I better keep a look at this. And over the months,
Speaker 1: you know, it turned out that they were indeed putting
Speaker 1: up some new dishes, and there's three twenty meter wide
Speaker 1: big golf ball structures. They look like golf balls but
Speaker 1: they're massive. They're called ray domes. They're covered in like
Speaker 1: a composite fiberglass plastic material to keep out the sun
Speaker 1: and the dust and also prying eyes of protesters peering
Speaker 1: through binoculars. So I spoke to all the right people,
Speaker 1: you know, and discovered, yeah, they were building this at
Speaker 1: the same time there was an expansion of the ability
Speaker 1: to do infrared detection. So those three satellites are believed
Speaker 1: by Professor Richard Tanter, who's the top Australian expert on
Speaker 1: this sort of research, to be involved in what's called
Speaker 1: it's a new system. It's called OPIR, and OPIR stands
Speaker 1: for overhead persistent you've read. And what they do is
Speaker 1: they detect missile launchers the heat signal coming from the
Speaker 1: burning of the fuel from missiles, from rockets going into space,
Speaker 1: but also things like jet engines of planes, very sophisticated
Speaker 1: and from that data they can work out from the
Speaker 1: signature of the heat and the time of burn and
Speaker 1: so forth, they can work out what sort of missile
Speaker 1: it is, what its range is, its warhead, it's likely target.
Speaker 1: And it's an incredibly sophisticated way of getting very early
Speaker 1: warning of these missiles or rockets being fired.
Speaker 2: And so you mentioned before some of the conflicts that
Speaker 2: pine Gap has been used to gather intelligence for in
Speaker 2: the past. Do we know currently which conflicts it's gathering
Speaker 2: intelligence in.
Speaker 1: Pine GAP's got a range of different capabilities. One is
Speaker 1: this infrared system that I've talked about, but it also
Speaker 1: does sigint, which means it has a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: other satellite dishes which can access signals intelligence collected by satellites,
Speaker 1: you know, thirty thousand kilometers above the Earth surface. They
Speaker 1: collect things like mobile phones, microwave communications. So it allows
Speaker 1: a very comprehensive look at all sorts of digital communications
Speaker 1: going on and wherever it is in the world that
Speaker 1: the US is interested in knowing about. It can direct
Speaker 1: the satellites to target and zone in on those locations
Speaker 1: or those individuals. At the moment, the Ukraine War and
Speaker 1: the Gaza War are of particular attention to the US,
Speaker 1: but the capability of pine Gap is enormous. It's probably
Speaker 1: the most important US satellite base in the world. But
Speaker 1: at a time when the War on Terror has calmed down,
Speaker 1: sudden building at pine Gap suggests that other people are
Speaker 1: thinking very differently. About the future.
Speaker 2: After the break, how an expansion at pine Gap could
Speaker 2: inflame tensions with China Beta. We've been talking about how
Speaker 2: pine Gap looms large in the Australian imagination, and it
Speaker 2: has done for a long time. But what will hosting
Speaker 2: this site mean for us in the future? How could
Speaker 2: it be used in the years ahead?
Speaker 1: Well, pine GAP's got so many uses. It can be
Speaker 1: used for good or for evil, and so it largely
Speaker 1: depends on who has political control and access to it.
Speaker 1: The importance at the moment in terms of the war
Speaker 1: fighting ability is that it's developing that that arm of
Speaker 1: its capability, those three new satellite dishes that have been built.
Speaker 1: On one hand, it sounds like a good defense for Australia,
Speaker 1: good defense for the wider world. However, you can imagine
Speaker 1: what it does to the adversary. The adversary now thinks
Speaker 1: that their ability to remain hidden is gone, which means
Speaker 1: their ability to defend themselves evaporates very quickly. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember des Ball.
Speaker 7: And I'm joined today for an interview with Professor des Ball.
Speaker 7: Des is a homegrown giant, Australia's pre eminent scholar of
Speaker 7: so many strategy and defense issue.
Speaker 1: He was a professor at a in U involved in
Speaker 1: strategic studies, and he really is the god father of
Speaker 1: research on Pine Gap.
Speaker 8: When one of my first books, A sort of a
Speaker 8: Piece of Real Estate, was published, with some people in
Speaker 8: the intelligence community thought had gone too far in revealing
Speaker 8: secrets about American installations in Australia, certainly revealed secrets to
Speaker 8: them because most of them are ignorant about the sorts
Speaker 8: of things which they had allowed to happen in this country.
Speaker 1: He died a few years ago, but his memory is
Speaker 1: strong with many people. He said, once pine Gap is
Speaker 1: approaching the situation where China knows that once it fires
Speaker 1: a rocket in defense of itself, it will be obliterated.
Speaker 1: So therefore he suggested to me that it's likely that China,
Speaker 1: if it fears it's under attack, will fire everything in
Speaker 1: the first day. Now the idea of a first round
Speaker 1: of nuclear exchange slowly building with diplomatic talks trying to
Speaker 1: calm things down. He said that the risk is that
Speaker 1: won't happen, that if China thinks its existence is actually
Speaker 1: being threatened, it'll fire The lot. People used to think, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, Australia is a long way from all the
Speaker 1: world's wars, aren't we lucky? Well, we're a long way away.
Speaker 1: Unless we put our submarines off the Chinese coast, then
Speaker 1: we're very close, and we're a long way away, unless
Speaker 1: we have United States bases in Australia fighting a war
Speaker 1: against China. As a result, Australia is really at the
Speaker 1: forefront of a battle of a war potentially if it develops.
Speaker 1: These are terrible risks that Australia has taken on, and
Speaker 1: the risks have been taken on kind of without much
Speaker 1: discussion going on. There ought to be parliamentary debate, there
Speaker 1: ought to be public input into the role. But at
Speaker 1: the moment we're all shut out. And I'd ask why
Speaker 1: why doesn't it get mentioned? Why is there no discussion.
Speaker 1: It's a terrible topic and about the only access we
Speaker 1: have through satellite images of the base. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: I've contacted in my job being a journalist on this,
Speaker 1: I've contacted the Defense Department a couple of times seeking responses,
Speaker 1: you know, things like legal culpability of Australian staff at
Speaker 1: the base if it gets involved in things that are
Speaker 1: deemed war crimes. And I've asked them about the costs
Speaker 1: of Australia, you know what dollars we put into the
Speaker 1: US base, and you know the Defense Department won't answer.
Speaker 1: They won't answer, and they won't answer.
Speaker 2: Peter, that picture you painted what could happen is pretty horrifying.
Speaker 1: To think about the idea of Australia being a nuclear
Speaker 1: target is horrifying to anyone. There's been a number of
Speaker 1: studies as to what the effects could be. There was
Speaker 1: a GP in Alice Springs who tried to find out
Speaker 1: about the civil defense, you know, what the local council,
Speaker 1: local authorities would do to evacuate people, how they got
Speaker 1: about it, and he found there was nothing planned. So
Speaker 1: he did his own research. This is in the late eighties,
Speaker 1: so it's a while ago, but nuclear bombs is even
Speaker 1: better now. And he found that if the wind was
Speaker 1: blowing the wrong way, if it was blowing from the southwest,
Speaker 1: Alice Springs would have an hour to evacuate. And his
Speaker 1: conclusion as a GP knowing the effects of that sort
Speaker 1: of contamination, says that anyone who didn't get out of
Speaker 1: Alice Springs in an hour would die, and that then
Speaker 1: those clouds of dust, thousands and thousands of tons of dust.
Speaker 1: Radioactive dust would then sprinkle down across the rest of Australia.
Speaker 1: You know, the prospect is horrific, and the base is
Speaker 1: being run by the United States, which has no longer
Speaker 1: denying its ability to use nuclear met missiles on a
Speaker 1: first use basis.
Speaker 2: Is there any evidence either that behind closed doors or
Speaker 2: in public forums in Canberra, that there is enough scrutiny,
Speaker 2: or in fact even a base level of scrutiny of
Speaker 2: what's going on at Pine Gap? Given everyone is in
Speaker 2: such furious agreement that the relationship with the US is
Speaker 2: of utmost.
Speaker 1: Importance, probably the best source of information at the moment
Speaker 1: is through centered estimates.
Speaker 9: In response to some questions I noticed that I put
Speaker 9: to you. You informed us that all activities at Pine
Speaker 9: Gap are conducted in compliance with Australian law, and I
Speaker 9: thank you for that response. Our activities at pine Gap
Speaker 9: also conducted in compliance with international human rights and humanitarian law.
Speaker 5: Well, Senator Ludlam, I'm confident that all activities are conducted
Speaker 5: in accordance with all relevant laws, and beyond that, as
Speaker 5: with your previous question, I'm not.
Speaker 1: Prepared to go and the questioning by opposition members, tills, screens, etc.
Speaker 1: So the ability to scrutinize Pine Gap is restricted. Maybe
Speaker 1: if some senior bureaucrats are held in the cells until
Speaker 1: they're prepared to answer, that we might get some information.
Speaker 1: But I mean, really, the two main parties, Liberal and Labor.
Speaker 1: I mean Liberal set the base up. So the Liberal
Speaker 1: Party was in government power at the time, and you
Speaker 1: know we had the Whitlam government which was a little
Speaker 1: more critical of the base, at least publicly because behind
Speaker 1: the scenes Whitlam gave the nod for the base to continue.
Speaker 1: But it's really with the Hawk government. I think that
Speaker 1: Labor decided that there was no point ruffling the feathers
Speaker 1: of the United States because they weren't going to win.
Speaker 1: They wanted to get on with running Australia, and Hawk
Speaker 1: decided that all the way of the USA was a
Speaker 1: good policy to adopt again. And I think the current
Speaker 1: government is pretty much in that vein as well, in
Speaker 1: that it wants to get on with things, it wants
Speaker 1: to have peace in the region, but it's not going
Speaker 1: to stand up to the US. I mean, how can
Speaker 1: that happen? How can you stand up to the US?
Speaker 1: You know, maybe we should just stand up for international
Speaker 1: law and humanitarian law and stand up for international legal
Speaker 1: institutions and then let everyone else get in line. You know,
Speaker 1: supporting international law and humanitarian institutions really is about all
Speaker 1: we've got to keep the world at peace, because relying
Speaker 1: on powerful countries to do it themselves hasn't really worked.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time, Peter.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Ashlyn.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, Peter Dutton's nuclear energy plan
Speaker 2: could blow out to six hundred billion dollars but only
Speaker 2: supply three point seven percent of Australia's energy by twenty fifty.
Speaker 2: According to research by a peak body for the renewable
Speaker 2: energy sector, the Smart Energy Council, found that at its
Speaker 2: minimum projected cost, the nuclear plan would cost the same
Speaker 2: as the Albanese government's renewables investment, but that plan's projected
Speaker 2: to provide eighty two percent of the energy meets by
Speaker 2: twenty thirty and almost one hundred percent by twenty fifty.
Speaker 2: And the Albanese government appears to have shelved the emergency
Speaker 2: immigration legislation that had urgently introduced to parliament in March.
Speaker 2: The legislation would have made it easier to deport non citizens,
Speaker 2: including making it a criminal offense for a person to
Speaker 2: refuse to engage with the embassies and authorities from their
Speaker 2: country of origin to facilitate a return. On Sunday, the
Speaker 2: bill was once again left off the government's list for
Speaker 2: Senate debates, meaning it's unlikely to pass before Parliament's winter break.
Speaker 2: I'm Ashlin McGhee. This is seven am. Thanks for your company.
Speaker 2: I'll see you again tomorrow.