WEBVTT - The spy base we’re not supposed to know about is getting bigger 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:04.600 I think one of the first times Pine Gap came 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:09.520 to public prominence, an activist I know who lives in Darwin, 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.680 decided to go and take a look. Crept into the location, 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.919 took a photograph and it had five discs. That caused 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:18.799 a bit of a controversy with the government back in 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.640 the seventies because they were saying there was only two. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.040 So it's very interesting how secretive the place has been 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:27.000 right from the get go. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:42.560 From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven AM. 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.640 Once upon a time Australians were told Pine Gap was 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.559 a space base, then a weather station. But now of 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.440 course we know the installation deep in the Northern Territory 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.800 outpack is a US spy base, which isn't say that 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.640 it's any less secretive. We still don't know a huge 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.680 amount about what goes on there. We do know that 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.840 it's likely America's biggest offshore spy base, that it gathers 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.720 critical intelligence about current conflicts, and now we know that 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:14.400 it's undergone a rapid expansion. Today, editor of Declassified Australia 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.959 and contributor to The Saturday Paper, Peter Crono on how 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.040 he discovered the Bass New technology and what it means 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:40.399 for Australia's safety. That's coming up after the break, Peter. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.080 Before we get into what you've uncovered, let's talk about 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.039 pine Gap itself. Why is there a US intelligence base 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:47.880 in the middle of the Australian outback. Where does the 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:48.559 story start? 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:54.120 Pine Gap is a satellite signal receiving station. It's jointly 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.960 run at the moments by the United States and Australia. 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.120 Mister Holt speaks to the American Vice President, mister Humphrey 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.040 via the Space Track network and then tells the cloud 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.840 that Australia was benefiting in many ways because it was 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:09.640 linked with America in space research. 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:14.840 So pine Gap was I think proposed in sixty six 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:16.239 nineteen sixty six. 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.880 A network of complex machinery to track American satellites in 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.160 the effort to conquer space. 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:28.680 It's located about fifteen kilometers in a direct line from 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.120 Alice Springs in central Australia, and Australia gets access to 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.840 some of the information that comes into the satellite dishes there, 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.560 but it is essentially a US base. They basically fund 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.000 it and it's for their purposes. 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.200 Today's globes bins within an invisible network built and maintained 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.360 by the United States of America. It is our Defense 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.200 Communications System DCS. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.000 By nineteen seventy it was being used to scoop up 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:04.000 North Vietnamese communications in Cambodia and in Vietnam, trying to 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:05.320 locate their supply lines. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.079 Thank God for far God your order, you want the 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:09.799 player road. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.680 After that, it was used, for example for the Yomkapur War, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.960 but that was done without telling Australian government at the time, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.840 and it leaked out through would you believe a journalist? 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.040 So you know, the Prime Minister Whitlam eventually found out 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.280 and went ballistic, and so it's been a controversial and 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:41.520 secretive spying location. There was quite a few protests in 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.480 the eighties. In ninety eighty three, the Women's Camp was 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.080 held out there with Indigenous women and women from all 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:48.920 around Australia. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:55.160 We the Undersigned Australian People demand the removal of the 0:03:55.200 --> 0:04:00.560 cia NSA Pine Gap base and all other pario military 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.440 installations on our soil. 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.920 And that was really one of the biggest and earliest 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.560 public revelations really of what Pine Gap was up to, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.160 and just in my sort of life, that's when I 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:17.240 first really heard more about it, so I've been interested 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.120 and I've followed it, and the numbers and purposes of 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:27.760 the satellite dishes there have just increased over the years. 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.200 So, Peter, tell me, what did you discover about what's 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:33.760 happening out there at the moment. 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.920 Well, as a nosy journalist, I take a look at 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.760 things like Google Earth images of various locations such as 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.520 Pine Gap, and noticed there'd been a bit of land 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.880 clearing going on. I was back in twenty twenty one 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.440 when I first took a look, and I thought, oh, well, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.760 maybe it's bushfires, maybe they're building a new power station, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.480 could be absuming pool. But I kept an eye on it, 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.640 and what I found is that on the western boundary 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.000 they cleared fourteen nectares, so it's not a small spot. 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.320 And they put three big dots from space looks like 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.919 a dot on the Google Earth image, but the three 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.920 large concrete pads, and I thought, oh, they're building something. 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.400 I better keep a look at this. And over the months, 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.640 you know, it turned out that they were indeed putting 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:24.680 up some new dishes, and there's three twenty meter wide 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.080 big golf ball structures. They look like golf balls but 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.080 they're massive. They're called ray domes. They're covered in like 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.680 a composite fiberglass plastic material to keep out the sun 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:40.720 and the dust and also prying eyes of protesters peering 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.800 through binoculars. So I spoke to all the right people, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.320 you know, and discovered, yeah, they were building this at 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.680 the same time there was an expansion of the ability 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:54.279 to do infrared detection. So those three satellites are believed 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.520 by Professor Richard Tanter, who's the top Australian expert on 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:02.200 this sort of research, to be involved in what's called 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.159 it's a new system. It's called OPIR, and OPIR stands 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.719 for overhead persistent you've read. And what they do is 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.080 they detect missile launchers the heat signal coming from the 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.680 burning of the fuel from missiles, from rockets going into space, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.840 but also things like jet engines of planes, very sophisticated 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.200 and from that data they can work out from the 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.000 signature of the heat and the time of burn and 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.120 so forth, they can work out what sort of missile 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.880 it is, what its range is, its warhead, it's likely target. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.679 And it's an incredibly sophisticated way of getting very early 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.920 warning of these missiles or rockets being fired. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.159 And so you mentioned before some of the conflicts that 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.039 pine Gap has been used to gather intelligence for in 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.280 the past. Do we know currently which conflicts it's gathering 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:57.960 intelligence in. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.760 Pine GAP's got a range of different capabilities. One is 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.000 this infrared system that I've talked about, but it also 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.039 does sigint, which means it has a whole bunch of 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.240 other satellite dishes which can access signals intelligence collected by satellites, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.520 you know, thirty thousand kilometers above the Earth surface. They 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:23.200 collect things like mobile phones, microwave communications. So it allows 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.120 a very comprehensive look at all sorts of digital communications 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.320 going on and wherever it is in the world that 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.960 the US is interested in knowing about. It can direct 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.040 the satellites to target and zone in on those locations 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.880 or those individuals. At the moment, the Ukraine War and 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:48.120 the Gaza War are of particular attention to the US, 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.480 but the capability of pine Gap is enormous. It's probably 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.480 the most important US satellite base in the world. But 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.239 at a time when the War on Terror has calmed down, 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.640 sudden building at pine Gap suggests that other people are 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.840 thinking very differently. About the future. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.200 After the break, how an expansion at pine Gap could 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:28.440 inflame tensions with China Beta. We've been talking about how 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.920 pine Gap looms large in the Australian imagination, and it 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.600 has done for a long time. But what will hosting 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.120 this site mean for us in the future? How could 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:39.400 it be used in the years ahead? 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.760 Well, pine GAP's got so many uses. It can be 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:48.000 used for good or for evil, and so it largely 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.600 depends on who has political control and access to it. 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.120 The importance at the moment in terms of the war 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:58.520 fighting ability is that it's developing that that arm of 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:04.960 its capability, those three new satellite dishes that have been built. 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.199 On one hand, it sounds like a good defense for Australia, 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.960 good defense for the wider world. However, you can imagine 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.880 what it does to the adversary. The adversary now thinks 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.319 that their ability to remain hidden is gone, which means 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:25.360 their ability to defend themselves evaporates very quickly. I don't 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:26.840 know if you remember des Ball. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.000 And I'm joined today for an interview with Professor des Ball. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:39.760 Des is a homegrown giant, Australia's pre eminent scholar of 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.360 so many strategy and defense issue. 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.760 He was a professor at a in U involved in 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.520 strategic studies, and he really is the god father of 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:48.800 research on Pine Gap. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.640 When one of my first books, A sort of a 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.320 Piece of Real Estate, was published, with some people in 0:09:55.320 --> 0:10:01.439 the intelligence community thought had gone too far in revealing 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:07.000 secrets about American installations in Australia, certainly revealed secrets to 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.600 them because most of them are ignorant about the sorts 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.640 of things which they had allowed to happen in this country. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.840 He died a few years ago, but his memory is 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.280 strong with many people. He said, once pine Gap is 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.280 approaching the situation where China knows that once it fires 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.160 a rocket in defense of itself, it will be obliterated. 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:34.280 So therefore he suggested to me that it's likely that China, 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.640 if it fears it's under attack, will fire everything in 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:43.319 the first day. Now the idea of a first round 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:48.040 of nuclear exchange slowly building with diplomatic talks trying to 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.240 calm things down. He said that the risk is that 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.560 won't happen, that if China thinks its existence is actually 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:01.679 being threatened, it'll fire The lot. People used to think, oh, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.120 you know, Australia is a long way from all the 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:08.760 world's wars, aren't we lucky? Well, we're a long way away. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.439 Unless we put our submarines off the Chinese coast, then 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.240 we're very close, and we're a long way away, unless 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.120 we have United States bases in Australia fighting a war 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.240 against China. As a result, Australia is really at the 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.480 forefront of a battle of a war potentially if it develops. 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.720 These are terrible risks that Australia has taken on, and 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.320 the risks have been taken on kind of without much 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:42.480 discussion going on. There ought to be parliamentary debate, there 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.360 ought to be public input into the role. But at 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.520 the moment we're all shut out. And I'd ask why 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.160 why doesn't it get mentioned? Why is there no discussion. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.840 It's a terrible topic and about the only access we 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.000 have through satellite images of the base. I mean, obviously 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.280 I've contacted in my job being a journalist on this, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:08.120 I've contacted the Defense Department a couple of times seeking responses, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.480 you know, things like legal culpability of Australian staff at 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.200 the base if it gets involved in things that are 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.360 deemed war crimes. And I've asked them about the costs 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.840 of Australia, you know what dollars we put into the 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.840 US base, and you know the Defense Department won't answer. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.480 They won't answer, and they won't answer. 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.199 Peter, that picture you painted what could happen is pretty horrifying. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.880 To think about the idea of Australia being a nuclear 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.920 target is horrifying to anyone. There's been a number of 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.400 studies as to what the effects could be. There was 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:49.000 a GP in Alice Springs who tried to find out 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.960 about the civil defense, you know, what the local council, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.679 local authorities would do to evacuate people, how they got 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.200 about it, and he found there was nothing planned. So 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.800 he did his own research. This is in the late eighties, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.160 so it's a while ago, but nuclear bombs is even 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:08.200 better now. And he found that if the wind was 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.520 blowing the wrong way, if it was blowing from the southwest, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.480 Alice Springs would have an hour to evacuate. And his 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.640 conclusion as a GP knowing the effects of that sort 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.599 of contamination, says that anyone who didn't get out of 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.280 Alice Springs in an hour would die, and that then 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.800 those clouds of dust, thousands and thousands of tons of dust. 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:35.679 Radioactive dust would then sprinkle down across the rest of Australia. 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:41.000 You know, the prospect is horrific, and the base is 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.680 being run by the United States, which has no longer 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.120 denying its ability to use nuclear met missiles on a 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:51.160 first use basis. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.800 Is there any evidence either that behind closed doors or 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.480 in public forums in Canberra, that there is enough scrutiny, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.600 or in fact even a base level of scrutiny of 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.640 what's going on at Pine Gap? Given everyone is in 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.520 such furious agreement that the relationship with the US is 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:09.440 of utmost. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.400 Importance, probably the best source of information at the moment 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:14.840 is through centered estimates. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.880 In response to some questions I noticed that I put 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.560 to you. You informed us that all activities at Pine 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.440 Gap are conducted in compliance with Australian law, and I 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.600 thank you for that response. Our activities at pine Gap 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.320 also conducted in compliance with international human rights and humanitarian law. 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:38.520 Well, Senator Ludlam, I'm confident that all activities are conducted 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:43.120 in accordance with all relevant laws, and beyond that, as 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:44.920 with your previous question, I'm not. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:50.240 Prepared to go and the questioning by opposition members, tills, screens, etc. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:55.640 So the ability to scrutinize Pine Gap is restricted. Maybe 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.200 if some senior bureaucrats are held in the cells until 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.800 they're prepared to answer, that we might get some information. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.960 But I mean, really, the two main parties, Liberal and Labor. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.760 I mean Liberal set the base up. So the Liberal 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.360 Party was in government power at the time, and you 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.720 know we had the Whitlam government which was a little 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.120 more critical of the base, at least publicly because behind 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.040 the scenes Whitlam gave the nod for the base to continue. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.120 But it's really with the Hawk government. I think that 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.400 Labor decided that there was no point ruffling the feathers 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.960 of the United States because they weren't going to win. 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.040 They wanted to get on with running Australia, and Hawk 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.080 decided that all the way of the USA was a 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.000 good policy to adopt again. And I think the current 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.560 government is pretty much in that vein as well, in 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.160 that it wants to get on with things, it wants 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.120 to have peace in the region, but it's not going 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.320 to stand up to the US. I mean, how can 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.120 that happen? How can you stand up to the US? 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.720 You know, maybe we should just stand up for international 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.160 law and humanitarian law and stand up for international legal 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.600 institutions and then let everyone else get in line. You know, 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:11.760 supporting international law and humanitarian institutions really is about all 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.760 we've got to keep the world at peace, because relying 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:20.760 on powerful countries to do it themselves hasn't really worked. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:23.960 Thanks so much for your time, Peter. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:25.680 Thank you very much, Ashlyn. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.560 Also in the news today, Peter Dutton's nuclear energy plan 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.680 could blow out to six hundred billion dollars but only 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.600 supply three point seven percent of Australia's energy by twenty fifty. 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.040 According to research by a peak body for the renewable 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.680 energy sector, the Smart Energy Council, found that at its 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.640 minimum projected cost, the nuclear plan would cost the same 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.680 as the Albanese government's renewables investment, but that plan's projected 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.200 to provide eighty two percent of the energy meets by 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.840 twenty thirty and almost one hundred percent by twenty fifty. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.560 And the Albanese government appears to have shelved the emergency 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.280 immigration legislation that had urgently introduced to parliament in March. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.320 The legislation would have made it easier to deport non citizens, 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.359 including making it a criminal offense for a person to 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.320 refuse to engage with the embassies and authorities from their 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.040 country of origin to facilitate a return. On Sunday, the 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.439 bill was once again left off the government's list for 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.679 Senate debates, meaning it's unlikely to pass before Parliament's winter break. 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.160 I'm Ashlin McGhee. This is seven am. Thanks for your company. 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.720 I'll see you again tomorrow.