WEBVTT - Growing From the Hard Stuff | Richard Tedeschi - 904 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:07.480 She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.479 I'm tiff This is Roll with the punches and we're 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:17.119 turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.599 to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:25.160 Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.240 Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.960 all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.280 custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.680 and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.440 reach out to Mark and the team at www dot 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:54.640 test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Richard Tedesky, welcome to 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:56.040 Roll with the Punches. 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.920 Thank you very much, Tiffany. Happy to be here talking with. 0:00:59.920 --> 0:01:02.680 You, Oh, very happy to be here with you. My 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.480 show is all about rolling with the punches, and you 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.000 are the epitome of that. You seem to have immersed 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.160 yourself and your life work into that area. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:15.959 Well, good, good, I look forward to the conversation. 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.760 I guess tell us tell myself and my audience a 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:24.040 little bit about you and what landed you in this 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:24.880 line of work. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:31.480 Well, right now, I'm executive director of a nonprofit in 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:37.319 the US called the Bouldercrest Foundation, and that was founded 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:42.640 by a US Navy veteran who wanted to provide services 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:50.880 to wounded veterans, military service members and then ultimately first 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:59.240 responders as well, and he created this beautiful retreat center 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.200 on his property in Virginia outside of Washington, d C. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.680 And I've been involved in the past eleven years in 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.600 developing programs there based on this concept of post traumatic 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.639 growth that I developed with my colleague Lawrence Calhoun when 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:17.880 as at the University of North Carolina Charlotte for many 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.480 years in the psychology department there. So we've taken this 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.959 concept that Lawrence and I researched a great deal and 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.880 we've been applying it at Bouldercrest to helping veterans and 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:34.160 first responders, primarily who have trauma histories, and we're focused 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.480 on how to approach those events in their lives from 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:43.320 a perspective where they can continue to find value and 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.760 meaning and purpose in what they're doing, even though they've 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:54.919 been through things that are very difficult, traumatic and put 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.680 them in some pretty dark places. So we want them 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:03.040 to see what's still possible for them and to encourage 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.200 them on a new life path in the aftermath of 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:05.600 all of that. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:10.120 Yeah, and what piked your interest or what was your 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.000 path to getting into that work. Was it psychology? Did 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:15.520 you always have an interest in that? 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:25.000 Well? I guess the initial work on post traumatic growth 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.760 that I did with Lawrence Calhoun was back actually in 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.359 the nineteen eighties. We coined the term in nineteen ninety 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.320 five after about ten years of work looking at trauma 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.520 survivors and really looking at the concept of where wisdom 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:45.040 comes from life wisdom and how it develops, and looking 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.720 at the possibility that develops because people have to go 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:57.640 through a crucible of really challenging circumstances that focused them 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.320 on new ways of understanding how to live life. We 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:06.520 did a lot of research people who had suffered physical disabilities, 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.280 people who had been bereaved, and then all kinds of 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:15.360 different sorts of people in terms of confronting traumatic events, 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:21.000 natural disasters, illnesses, all kinds of things. And then ultimately 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.599 I ended up working with the military starting the early 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:32.600 two thousands, training military mental health professionals. And it's through 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.360 that work that I eventually met ken Falk and we 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.160 started working on these programs for Bouldercrest Foundation. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:47.000 What are you what's your definition of post traumatic growth? 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.640 Which seems like is it as simple as it seems 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:51.719 or what have you learned? 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.039 Well, in some ways it's it is as simple as 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:00.320 it seems. It's the positive changes that happened with people 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:07.599 in the aftermath of traumatic events as a process of 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:12.479 struggle with those events, and in that struggle, coming up 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.960 with new perspectives on who they are, the kind of 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:21.000 life they want to live, how they want to be 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.520 in this world. So positive changes that happen to people 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.080 as a result of the struggle with traumatic events. 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:35.919 It was really interesting to me. I found when I 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.200 reflect back, I think I developed a real appreciation for 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:45.039 the hard stuff and gratitude for what was on the 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.159 other side of it for me, And that was really 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.800 the precipice of starting this show, where I was like, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:57.320 how come some people go through hard things and they 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.919 end up stronger and better for it, they end up growing, 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.640 And how come some people find themselves stuck? Like the 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.719 hard thing is the anchor? And what can we control 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.760 and what can we learn and how much control do 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:12.160 we have? 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.480 Well, one of the things that is important in this 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.880 although it may not account for everything, but one thing 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.240 that's very important is who you're with in the aftermath 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:28.800 of those events, the kind of people that you're surrounded by. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.720 And that's why we have focused in our work at 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:42.480 Bouldercrest on a program that uses peers to help people, 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:48.440 and so we don't do psychotherapy. We're not a psychology 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:53.760 program or psychiatry program. We have peers that is first 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:59.159 responders and military service members and veterans who provide the 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.560 programming because, first of all, it's important that people are 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.800 struggling with these things are connected with someone they can 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:15.800 trust who will understand them. So one of the advantageous 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.560 ways of approaching that problem of trust and connection is 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:25.720 to get people involved with those who are are most 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.520 likely to understand because they have some experience in that 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.560 world that a person is in. So we try to 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:39.560 emphasize the importance of expert companionship, having companions in the 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:45.960 aftermath of these difficult events who will be trusted and 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.160 who will be able to show empathy, and who will 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:56.240 listen well and listen in a particular way, not as 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:05.400 people who come at the problem through expertise of you know, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:10.000 sort of academic nature, but the expertise of being a person, 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.760 being a connected person who would be a good listener 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.360 and who will want to learn from the person who's 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.520 struggling what it's like to be that person to go 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.200 through what they're going through, and by learning that person 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.200 being able to be a companion with them forward through 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.719 whatever they're going through. So to have someone in your 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.840 world like that can make a big difference in terms 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:41.000 of being one of those who find this post traumatic 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.319 growth experience. So that's a big factor. That's a big factor. 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.200 I remember I mentioned you just Paul, we went on that. 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.040 One of my favorite first guests was Captain Charlie Plumb, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.480 and I remember hearing of his experience what he went 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.800 through being a prisoner of war for six years. They 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:04.880 horrific talt the conditions, and I remember just thinking, what 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:11.040 are we missing? Because what because something about what they 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:18.720 were doing has allowed them to grow from this experience 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.640 and come out of it supported and strong considering what 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.440 they've been through. When really you think about everything that 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:32.040 was thrown at them was to break human spirit and 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.160 they couldn't do it. They couldn't break their spirit with 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.480 all of that. So and I remember him talking about 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.360 the way that they connected and developed a way to communicate, 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.360 and the way that they celebrated things, and the way 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.760 they taught each other. So for me, it was something 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.920 about that human connection, that relationship that I think when 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.559 we're out in this busy, disconnected world, we miss a 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:58.400 lot of that, don't we. 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.040 That's one of the things that's so dangerous about our 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.400 world is the way we can get disconnected and it 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:15.800 can reknock with us, especially when we hit real challenges 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:21.600 in life. And Charlie, of course I know Charlie and 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.200 and he's a remarkable man, and he has his way 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:30.800 of describing how those prisoners of war supported one another 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:35.040 for all those years in circumstances where it was really 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.959 difficult to communicate and to support. I mean, they found 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:44.840 them craziest ways of keeping together and letting each other 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:50.000 know that they weren't alone. So in our world now, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:55.080 where we can feel very disconnected for all sorts of reasons, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:02.439 it's important to define those ways and to make sure 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.720 that we find those companions for us through these difficult times. 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.280 Given how many years you've been diving into this research 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.840 and understanding it, and how much the world has changed, 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.240 like in twenty twenty five since the nineteen eighties. Do 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.400 you feel like it's hard to make progress at the 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.920 pace that the world is kind of pushing us in 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:29.840 the opposite direction? 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.319 Yeah, the world certainly is pushing us into a very 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.160 fast piece. I think. I think we all realize that 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:47.680 so many changes, so quickly, so many challenges, and you know, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.559 the scary parts of the world are really at our 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.440 doorsteps or on our computers or our phones or wherever. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.280 We're confronted with like the worst of the world all 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.800 the time, you know, immediately, so the world can start 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:09.160 to look like a very disorienting sort of place and 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.280 a scary place to engage. So so that's that's one 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.440 of the challenges for for all of us as we're 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.720 even if you're not paying too close attention, you're almost 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.520 it almost comes at you, you know. So we've got 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.360 all that to deal with. Never never mind what's very 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.920 personal and in our lives, you know, in our families 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.520 and our personal lives very close to us. So we've 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.640 got all of that to deal with. It's a lot 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.920 and and and in all of that there is still 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.400 possibilities though the other side of it is, you know, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.960 there are possibilities for connection that we never had before. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.040 Like look at us. You know, we're talking across continents, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.560 across the international dateline, like we're in the same room 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.400 and and so we're connected where you know, in years past, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.160 this and this wouldn't have been possible. So so there's 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.160 that part of it too, which means that people can 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:10.520 understand one another in very different places because we all 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.200 have human experiences that can bind us together. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:19.520 Yeah, what I find is more important when it comes 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.040 to unders like when we've been through trauma and we're 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.520 looking for support or healing or making sense of it, Like, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.839 is there a hierarchy between our mind, our mindset, our 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.800 logical understanding and narrative, and then the connection to the 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.560 body and what trauma lives in the body and how 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:42.960 we interpret that. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.359 Well, you know, events that are at least potentially traumatic 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:54.000 have an effect on our whole system, how we think, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:59.040 our emotional system, and our bodies, because our thinking and 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.000 emotion is based on what's going on in our bodies, 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.560 and our bodies respond to our emotions. It's it's it's 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:13.839 all a constant loop of interconnections. So we're completely and 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.800 holistically involved in the response to these kinds of things. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:23.240 So anybody who has been faced with trauma has probably 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:30.120 experienced the intense emotion of uh fear as a big 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.880 part of it. And you know, you fear, you'll you'll 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.440 feel fear in your body. You know, you're if you 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.240 feel out of control of your own body when you're 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.840 afraid sometimes and then you're you know, you have trouble 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.240 thinking straight, can't make you know, make decisions very easily, 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.360 and you know your your emotions are deeply affected and 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.200 very intense, and so all of you is just disoriented 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.040 by fear in these traumatic circumstances. That's that's the big 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:04.680 thing in postraumatic growth. We're also focused on the aftermath 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.120 of trauma because I mentioned in the definition it's the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.160 positive changes that happen in the aftermath of trauma. So 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:17.840 you know, in the days, weeks, and even years after 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.280 these sorts of events have occurred, you know, we're going 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:26.360 through a or a process of just trying to figure 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:30.760 out the chaos, you know, what happened to us, where 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.640 does this leave us? And trying to reorganize ourselves in 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.160 the aftermath of that chaos so that we can we 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:38.720 can figure out how to live in a way that 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.720 makes sense when everything has been kind of up for 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:48.360 grabs because kind of trauma disorientces in terms of how 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.400 we understand ourselves in our world and our life path, 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:54.640 and we don't know what to make of it, and 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.320 we have to, you know, reconstruct all of that. It 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.480 affects our whole system, and it has ripple effects that 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.320 go on for long periods of time very often, and 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.760 it's a lot of work to try to reorient ourselves 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:11.640 in a way that is sensible. 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.520 What's your take on resilience. 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:23.680 Well, resilience, of course means that we are not really 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.680 deeply affected by events because we can withstand them, or 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.760 we can bounce back from them really quickly. You know, 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.800 we'd all like to be resilient and not be much 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:41.760 affected by difficulties in life. So resilience is a really 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.840 good thing. But the fact of the matter is sometimes 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.800 we're not you know, sometimes we're not resilient, or we 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:56.680 encounter events that overwhelm our capabilities, and sometimes the concept 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.440 of resilience can kind of backfire. Like I remember, I 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.919 remember working with some people who were studying nurses in 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.399 the aftermath of the pandemic the COVID nineteen pandemic, and 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.600 the nurses were saying that they were really struggling in 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.720 these hospitals and trying to provide care and these terrible circumstances. 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.879 And the message they got from their administration, which was 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.960 well meaning, was you're resilient. You can deal with this 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.760 because you are strong and resilient. But they weren't feeling 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.320 that way. They weren't feeling strong and resilient, and the 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.840 message they were getting sounded to them like they weren't understood, 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:43.520 or that there was something wrong with them if they 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.280 weren't resilient. You know, it's like I do feeling resilient, 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.840 so what's wrong with me? You know? So sometimes that 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.960 resilience concept can backfire when we're not feeling it. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:18:02.000 Yeah, do you think that sometimes resilience is is something 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:08.560 else stressed up, like suppression of emotions and not dealing 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:13.800 with not dealing with something that is happening, maybe even 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.680 dissociation that he's going to look like resilience, But at 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.240 some point it can be the straw that breaks the 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.439 camel's back. And so I find in today's world so 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.760 many things, you know, like so much talk around resilience 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.560 and do the hard thing, just do. The hard thing 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.240 is the messaging out there, like just if you want 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.320 to get resilient, do more hard things. And sometimes I think, well, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.080 that's if we're not opening the door on what's really 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.840 happening underneath, or we don't know our bodies and realize 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.919 that actually we're suppressing everything. There's stuff going on that 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.760 we're out of touch with inside us. What are your 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:50.440 thoughts on that? 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.199 Well, that's kind of like the nurses I was mentioning, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:59.280 And it's so hard sometimes to know what's going on 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.439 with another person just by looking at their outsides, you know, 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.960 and they can look real strong and resilient, but they're struggling, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:12.600 you know. And frankly, this is not to be too stereotypical, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.440 but men are more prone to this. They're scared to 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:20.480 death of emitting vulnerability, and so they put up a 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.879 good front, you know. They can't cry, they can't show weakness, 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.560 they can't ask for help, all that kind of stuff, 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.719 and it's really debilitating. And I'm sure that many people, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:37.320 maybe people listening to this program, have known people who 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.760 who looked like they were doing really well, but then 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.720 in the end, something terrible happened with them. You know, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:49.840 they seem to break apart some people. Some people kill themselves, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.000 and people are shocked, like I can't believe it. You know, 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:54.879 he was always so happy, or he seemed to be 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.440 doing so well or whatnot. How could that have happened? 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.960 That doesn't make any sense, you know. So sometimes it's 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.919 it's really a terrible disaster like that. So a lot 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.119 of people do put up a good front, and sometimes 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.200 people put up a good front to themselves, like you're saying, 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:16.040 by not allowing themselves to explore their own feelings in 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.679 their own internal world to see what's going on with 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.840 them until it starts to really get the better of them. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.200 And then and then you got the people who suppress 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.399 it with self medication, you know, alcohol and drugs and 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.880 all those sorts of or other kinds of activities that 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.840 try to you know, they try to avoid what they 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:37.399 can't face. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.959 Yeah, yeah, I mean I always talk about my relationship 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.880 with boxing in that exact manner. Was this My understanding 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:53.360 of myself for my first thirty years was this independent, strong, brave, courageous, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:59.320 bloody thing. And eventually I started to have to question 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.879 that and go, actually, these things that look like strength 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:08.840 and independence and courage. If I don't feel fear about 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.680 the things I'm doing that people think are courageous, then 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.679 that's not really courage. That's me painting a picture of courage. 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.479 What is it that actually scares me? And I had 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.239 to kind of go hunting for it? I had to. 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.400 I think that for me, the physical nature of boxing 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.960 brought me back in touch with my body and physical 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.760 sensations and it started to unravel a bit of self 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.679 deep self awareness. And that's where this, I guess this 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.320 sparked my interest and went, well, what is everyone's experience? 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.320 And when you know, I think about it all the time, 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.320 the conversations I have in this show, which are just 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:52.440 curious around learning from others and understanding and hopefully uncovering 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.800 resources that other people can connect with, but also being 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.479 very conscious and aware that everyone is in a different 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.680 and I have at different times I have been a 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.120 different person if someone had come to me Richard when 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.840 I was in my late twenties, before I had that 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.720 revelation and said, hey, you know how you think, Hey, TIV, 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.679 you know you think you're all brave and courageous and independent, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.040 You're actually you know, you're actually the opposite of all that, 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.240 or to punished him in the face in the boxing ring. 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:25.800 Of course, you know, like I wasn't ready, and so 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:30.200 I'm I think about that in these conversations and at 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.159 all of the different stages of experience and awareness and 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:39.159 other people's actual physical circumstances and what I don't know 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:41.800 or haven't experienced, and what you might know or have 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.440 an experienced, and we try and communicate from these different places. 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:52.280 That was a long winded rant, wasn't it, thoughts Well, well. 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:57.520 That's because it's your lived experience, right, yeah, resonated right, Yeah. 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.359 What are you with your with Bouldercrest? What are the 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.760 things that aside from the relationships which you spoke about, 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.159 what are the other tools that help people? 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.879 Well, we we talked different about some different elements in 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:18.120 our programs. So we have one program where people come 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:22.320 to one of our facilities for a week and it's 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.920 these are in rural places in the United States, beautiful 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:30.280 places where you can find serenity, and we're in rural 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.040 areas that are really beautiful, and we work with people 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:39.480 in small groups about eight or so. And then we 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:44.760 have other programs where we go out to organizations usually 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:52.080 military bases or police departments or fire departments, places like that, prisons, 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:55.960 you know, and work with staff in groups of maybe 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:01.119 twenty five. So no matter which kind of when we're using, though, 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:05.920 we're first trying to educate people on this idea of 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:14.520 how events can affect people physically and psychologically, how their 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.040 challenges and what happens to us, and that when we 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:22.480 react this way physically and psychologically to these challenging events, 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.680 even though we might feel like we're not ourselves or 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:29.440 we feel like we're breaking down or something crazy about 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.080 us or disordered or whatever, and we might be labeled 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.880 that by some well meaning doctors or whatever, that these 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.840 reactions we're having are just human reactions because we're human beings, 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.920 and human beings respond a certain way to get hit 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:48.920 with these kinds of events. So first's education about that 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.239 where people learn that there's nothing wrong with them, it's 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:56.800 what happened to them. And a lot of the people 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:58.280 have come to us and been told to do something 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.480 wrong with them. You know, they've had diagnosed sees and 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.320 all kinds of medications and things like that, so you know, 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:07.680 you're you're broken, you know, and and we tell them no, 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:09.640 you're not, You're just a human being that's gone through 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:15.639 some ship. So so so that's one thing. And then 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:19.199 we help them with emotional regulation, because, as you're saying, 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:26.280 you know, these these reactions are are really difficult to manage. 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:31.800 So we we help people regulate their emotions. We teach 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:35.440 them meditation, and we teach them how to breathe properly, 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:39.879 and you know, how to how to have some ways 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:43.880 of calming some of these reactions that they have, which 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:47.439 are autonomic nervous system reactions just natural when you're in 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.959 a state of fear in the aftermath of that. So 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.520 then we then we have we try to help people 0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:00.200 talk or express in some way what they're going through 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:02.080 so they're not just keeping it all to themselves and 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:05.000 they're connecting with the people in their group, which is 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:08.280 a remarkable thing that happens. I just love it. That's 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.240 why I love, you know, group work. When you see 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:16.840 people who take the chance to tell other people about 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:20.840 their struggles and then other people start joining in and 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.639 everybody everybody say, oh, you mean we're all in the 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:26.000 same boat. Oh my goodness, I thought I was. I 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:28.159 thought I was the only one. You know, you know, 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:31.760 you too, Wow? Okay, maybe we're not all so bad 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:34.479 off that or we're all crazy, but we know we're not. 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.400 Because you you look like you're pretty good. I thought 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:39.879 I was. So if you're pretty good and you're like me, 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.040 maybe I'm pretty good. It's an amazing thing that when people 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:45.120 start doing this, and you know, one of the things 0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:48.600 that's so cool about our programs we do. We in 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.520 some of our programs we write in songwriters from Nashville 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:55.880 country music songwriters, professional songwriters who wrote for the biggest 0:26:55.920 --> 0:27:00.439 country music acts. They come in and they spend they 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.000 spend a day just talking to the people in our 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:07.199 group and about what they went through, and out of 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:10.880 that lyrics develop. They take the words of the people 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:13.600 in the group and they create lyrics and they create 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.240 a song out of it. And we've got all these songs, 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:23.040 unbelievably beautiful songs written by these groups of veterans or 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:28.080 first responders and a Nashville songwriter and it's amazing, like 0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:34.359 they could be on, you know, they could be on, 0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:39.119 they could be streamed, and their beautiful songs. So whatever 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:42.400 the way of expressing might be through song or writing 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:47.359 and write or talk, we have all kinds of ways 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:51.120 of doing this, and then out of that we help 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.760 people develop with their story is story of their lives, 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:56.560 how they got to where they are, So they see 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:59.520