Speaker 1: She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2: I'm tiff This is Roll with the punches and we're
Speaker 2: turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
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Speaker 2: Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in
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Speaker 2: and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so
Speaker 2: reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
Speaker 2: test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Richard Tedesky, welcome to
Speaker 2: Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Tiffany. Happy to be here talking with.
Speaker 2: You, Oh, very happy to be here with you. My
Speaker 2: show is all about rolling with the punches, and you
Speaker 2: are the epitome of that. You seem to have immersed
Speaker 2: yourself and your life work into that area.
Speaker 3: Well, good, good, I look forward to the conversation.
Speaker 2: I guess tell us tell myself and my audience a
Speaker 2: little bit about you and what landed you in this
Speaker 2: line of work.
Speaker 3: Well, right now, I'm executive director of a nonprofit in
Speaker 3: the US called the Bouldercrest Foundation, and that was founded
Speaker 3: by a US Navy veteran who wanted to provide services
Speaker 3: to wounded veterans, military service members and then ultimately first
Speaker 3: responders as well, and he created this beautiful retreat center
Speaker 3: on his property in Virginia outside of Washington, d C.
Speaker 3: And I've been involved in the past eleven years in
Speaker 3: developing programs there based on this concept of post traumatic
Speaker 3: growth that I developed with my colleague Lawrence Calhoun when
Speaker 3: as at the University of North Carolina Charlotte for many
Speaker 3: years in the psychology department there. So we've taken this
Speaker 3: concept that Lawrence and I researched a great deal and
Speaker 3: we've been applying it at Bouldercrest to helping veterans and
Speaker 3: first responders, primarily who have trauma histories, and we're focused
Speaker 3: on how to approach those events in their lives from
Speaker 3: a perspective where they can continue to find value and
Speaker 3: meaning and purpose in what they're doing, even though they've
Speaker 3: been through things that are very difficult, traumatic and put
Speaker 3: them in some pretty dark places. So we want them
Speaker 3: to see what's still possible for them and to encourage
Speaker 3: them on a new life path in the aftermath of
Speaker 3: all of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what piked your interest or what was your
Speaker 2: path to getting into that work. Was it psychology? Did
Speaker 2: you always have an interest in that?
Speaker 3: Well? I guess the initial work on post traumatic growth
Speaker 3: that I did with Lawrence Calhoun was back actually in
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. We coined the term in nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: five after about ten years of work looking at trauma
Speaker 3: survivors and really looking at the concept of where wisdom
Speaker 3: comes from life wisdom and how it develops, and looking
Speaker 3: at the possibility that develops because people have to go
Speaker 3: through a crucible of really challenging circumstances that focused them
Speaker 3: on new ways of understanding how to live life. We
Speaker 3: did a lot of research people who had suffered physical disabilities,
Speaker 3: people who had been bereaved, and then all kinds of
Speaker 3: different sorts of people in terms of confronting traumatic events,
Speaker 3: natural disasters, illnesses, all kinds of things. And then ultimately
Speaker 3: I ended up working with the military starting the early
Speaker 3: two thousands, training military mental health professionals. And it's through
Speaker 3: that work that I eventually met ken Falk and we
Speaker 3: started working on these programs for Bouldercrest Foundation.
Speaker 2: What are you what's your definition of post traumatic growth?
Speaker 2: Which seems like is it as simple as it seems
Speaker 2: or what have you learned?
Speaker 3: Well, in some ways it's it is as simple as
Speaker 3: it seems. It's the positive changes that happened with people
Speaker 3: in the aftermath of traumatic events as a process of
Speaker 3: struggle with those events, and in that struggle, coming up
Speaker 3: with new perspectives on who they are, the kind of
Speaker 3: life they want to live, how they want to be
Speaker 3: in this world. So positive changes that happen to people
Speaker 3: as a result of the struggle with traumatic events.
Speaker 2: It was really interesting to me. I found when I
Speaker 2: reflect back, I think I developed a real appreciation for
Speaker 2: the hard stuff and gratitude for what was on the
Speaker 2: other side of it for me, And that was really
Speaker 2: the precipice of starting this show, where I was like,
Speaker 2: how come some people go through hard things and they
Speaker 2: end up stronger and better for it, they end up growing,
Speaker 2: And how come some people find themselves stuck? Like the
Speaker 2: hard thing is the anchor? And what can we control
Speaker 2: and what can we learn and how much control do
Speaker 2: we have?
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that is important in this
Speaker 3: although it may not account for everything, but one thing
Speaker 3: that's very important is who you're with in the aftermath
Speaker 3: of those events, the kind of people that you're surrounded by.
Speaker 3: And that's why we have focused in our work at
Speaker 3: Bouldercrest on a program that uses peers to help people,
Speaker 3: and so we don't do psychotherapy. We're not a psychology
Speaker 3: program or psychiatry program. We have peers that is first
Speaker 3: responders and military service members and veterans who provide the
Speaker 3: programming because, first of all, it's important that people are
Speaker 3: struggling with these things are connected with someone they can
Speaker 3: trust who will understand them. So one of the advantageous
Speaker 3: ways of approaching that problem of trust and connection is
Speaker 3: to get people involved with those who are are most
Speaker 3: likely to understand because they have some experience in that
Speaker 3: world that a person is in. So we try to
Speaker 3: emphasize the importance of expert companionship, having companions in the
Speaker 3: aftermath of these difficult events who will be trusted and
Speaker 3: who will be able to show empathy, and who will
Speaker 3: listen well and listen in a particular way, not as
Speaker 3: people who come at the problem through expertise of you know,
Speaker 3: sort of academic nature, but the expertise of being a person,
Speaker 3: being a connected person who would be a good listener
Speaker 3: and who will want to learn from the person who's
Speaker 3: struggling what it's like to be that person to go
Speaker 3: through what they're going through, and by learning that person
Speaker 3: being able to be a companion with them forward through
Speaker 3: whatever they're going through. So to have someone in your
Speaker 3: world like that can make a big difference in terms
Speaker 3: of being one of those who find this post traumatic
Speaker 3: growth experience. So that's a big factor. That's a big factor.
Speaker 2: I remember I mentioned you just Paul, we went on that.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite first guests was Captain Charlie Plumb,
Speaker 2: and I remember hearing of his experience what he went
Speaker 2: through being a prisoner of war for six years. They
Speaker 2: horrific talt the conditions, and I remember just thinking, what
Speaker 2: are we missing? Because what because something about what they
Speaker 2: were doing has allowed them to grow from this experience
Speaker 2: and come out of it supported and strong considering what
Speaker 2: they've been through. When really you think about everything that
Speaker 2: was thrown at them was to break human spirit and
Speaker 2: they couldn't do it. They couldn't break their spirit with
Speaker 2: all of that. So and I remember him talking about
Speaker 2: the way that they connected and developed a way to communicate,
Speaker 2: and the way that they celebrated things, and the way
Speaker 2: they taught each other. So for me, it was something
Speaker 2: about that human connection, that relationship that I think when
Speaker 2: we're out in this busy, disconnected world, we miss a
Speaker 2: lot of that, don't we.
Speaker 3: That's one of the things that's so dangerous about our
Speaker 3: world is the way we can get disconnected and it
Speaker 3: can reknock with us, especially when we hit real challenges
Speaker 3: in life. And Charlie, of course I know Charlie and
Speaker 3: and he's a remarkable man, and he has his way
Speaker 3: of describing how those prisoners of war supported one another
Speaker 3: for all those years in circumstances where it was really
Speaker 3: difficult to communicate and to support. I mean, they found
Speaker 3: them craziest ways of keeping together and letting each other
Speaker 3: know that they weren't alone. So in our world now,
Speaker 3: where we can feel very disconnected for all sorts of reasons,
Speaker 3: it's important to define those ways and to make sure
Speaker 3: that we find those companions for us through these difficult times.
Speaker 2: Given how many years you've been diving into this research
Speaker 2: and understanding it, and how much the world has changed,
Speaker 2: like in twenty twenty five since the nineteen eighties. Do
Speaker 2: you feel like it's hard to make progress at the
Speaker 2: pace that the world is kind of pushing us in
Speaker 2: the opposite direction?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the world certainly is pushing us into a very
Speaker 3: fast piece. I think. I think we all realize that
Speaker 3: so many changes, so quickly, so many challenges, and you know,
Speaker 3: the scary parts of the world are really at our
Speaker 3: doorsteps or on our computers or our phones or wherever.
Speaker 3: We're confronted with like the worst of the world all
Speaker 3: the time, you know, immediately, so the world can start
Speaker 3: to look like a very disorienting sort of place and
Speaker 3: a scary place to engage. So so that's that's one
Speaker 3: of the challenges for for all of us as we're
Speaker 3: even if you're not paying too close attention, you're almost
Speaker 3: it almost comes at you, you know. So we've got
Speaker 3: all that to deal with. Never never mind what's very
Speaker 3: personal and in our lives, you know, in our families
Speaker 3: and our personal lives very close to us. So we've
Speaker 3: got all of that to deal with. It's a lot
Speaker 3: and and and in all of that there is still
Speaker 3: possibilities though the other side of it is, you know,
Speaker 3: there are possibilities for connection that we never had before.
Speaker 3: Like look at us. You know, we're talking across continents,
Speaker 3: across the international dateline, like we're in the same room
Speaker 3: and and so we're connected where you know, in years past,
Speaker 3: this and this wouldn't have been possible. So so there's
Speaker 3: that part of it too, which means that people can
Speaker 3: understand one another in very different places because we all
Speaker 3: have human experiences that can bind us together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I find is more important when it comes
Speaker 2: to unders like when we've been through trauma and we're
Speaker 2: looking for support or healing or making sense of it, Like,
Speaker 2: is there a hierarchy between our mind, our mindset, our
Speaker 2: logical understanding and narrative, and then the connection to the
Speaker 2: body and what trauma lives in the body and how
Speaker 2: we interpret that.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, events that are at least potentially traumatic
Speaker 3: have an effect on our whole system, how we think,
Speaker 3: our emotional system, and our bodies, because our thinking and
Speaker 3: emotion is based on what's going on in our bodies,
Speaker 3: and our bodies respond to our emotions. It's it's it's
Speaker 3: all a constant loop of interconnections. So we're completely and
Speaker 3: holistically involved in the response to these kinds of things.
Speaker 3: So anybody who has been faced with trauma has probably
Speaker 3: experienced the intense emotion of uh fear as a big
Speaker 3: part of it. And you know, you fear, you'll you'll
Speaker 3: feel fear in your body. You know, you're if you
Speaker 3: feel out of control of your own body when you're
Speaker 3: afraid sometimes and then you're you know, you have trouble
Speaker 3: thinking straight, can't make you know, make decisions very easily,
Speaker 3: and you know your your emotions are deeply affected and
Speaker 3: very intense, and so all of you is just disoriented
Speaker 3: by fear in these traumatic circumstances. That's that's the big
Speaker 3: thing in postraumatic growth. We're also focused on the aftermath
Speaker 3: of trauma because I mentioned in the definition it's the
Speaker 3: positive changes that happen in the aftermath of trauma. So
Speaker 3: you know, in the days, weeks, and even years after
Speaker 3: these sorts of events have occurred, you know, we're going
Speaker 3: through a or a process of just trying to figure
Speaker 3: out the chaos, you know, what happened to us, where
Speaker 3: does this leave us? And trying to reorganize ourselves in
Speaker 3: the aftermath of that chaos so that we can we
Speaker 3: can figure out how to live in a way that
Speaker 3: makes sense when everything has been kind of up for
Speaker 3: grabs because kind of trauma disorientces in terms of how
Speaker 3: we understand ourselves in our world and our life path,
Speaker 3: and we don't know what to make of it, and
Speaker 3: we have to, you know, reconstruct all of that. It
Speaker 3: affects our whole system, and it has ripple effects that
Speaker 3: go on for long periods of time very often, and
Speaker 3: it's a lot of work to try to reorient ourselves
Speaker 3: in a way that is sensible.
Speaker 2: What's your take on resilience.
Speaker 3: Well, resilience, of course means that we are not really
Speaker 3: deeply affected by events because we can withstand them, or
Speaker 3: we can bounce back from them really quickly. You know,
Speaker 3: we'd all like to be resilient and not be much
Speaker 3: affected by difficulties in life. So resilience is a really
Speaker 3: good thing. But the fact of the matter is sometimes
Speaker 3: we're not you know, sometimes we're not resilient, or we
Speaker 3: encounter events that overwhelm our capabilities, and sometimes the concept
Speaker 3: of resilience can kind of backfire. Like I remember, I
Speaker 3: remember working with some people who were studying nurses in
Speaker 3: the aftermath of the pandemic the COVID nineteen pandemic, and
Speaker 3: the nurses were saying that they were really struggling in
Speaker 3: these hospitals and trying to provide care and these terrible circumstances.
Speaker 3: And the message they got from their administration, which was
Speaker 3: well meaning, was you're resilient. You can deal with this
Speaker 3: because you are strong and resilient. But they weren't feeling
Speaker 3: that way. They weren't feeling strong and resilient, and the
Speaker 3: message they were getting sounded to them like they weren't understood,
Speaker 3: or that there was something wrong with them if they
Speaker 3: weren't resilient. You know, it's like I do feeling resilient,
Speaker 3: so what's wrong with me? You know? So sometimes that
Speaker 3: resilience concept can backfire when we're not feeling it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that sometimes resilience is is something
Speaker 2: else stressed up, like suppression of emotions and not dealing
Speaker 2: with not dealing with something that is happening, maybe even
Speaker 2: dissociation that he's going to look like resilience, But at
Speaker 2: some point it can be the straw that breaks the
Speaker 2: camel's back. And so I find in today's world so
Speaker 2: many things, you know, like so much talk around resilience
Speaker 2: and do the hard thing, just do. The hard thing
Speaker 2: is the messaging out there, like just if you want
Speaker 2: to get resilient, do more hard things. And sometimes I think, well,
Speaker 2: that's if we're not opening the door on what's really
Speaker 2: happening underneath, or we don't know our bodies and realize
Speaker 2: that actually we're suppressing everything. There's stuff going on that
Speaker 2: we're out of touch with inside us. What are your
Speaker 2: thoughts on that?
Speaker 3: Well, that's kind of like the nurses I was mentioning,
Speaker 3: And it's so hard sometimes to know what's going on
Speaker 3: with another person just by looking at their outsides, you know,
Speaker 3: and they can look real strong and resilient, but they're struggling,
Speaker 3: you know. And frankly, this is not to be too stereotypical,
Speaker 3: but men are more prone to this. They're scared to
Speaker 3: death of emitting vulnerability, and so they put up a
Speaker 3: good front, you know. They can't cry, they can't show weakness,
Speaker 3: they can't ask for help, all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: and it's really debilitating. And I'm sure that many people,
Speaker 3: maybe people listening to this program, have known people who
Speaker 3: who looked like they were doing really well, but then
Speaker 3: in the end, something terrible happened with them. You know,
Speaker 3: they seem to break apart some people. Some people kill themselves,
Speaker 3: and people are shocked, like I can't believe it. You know,
Speaker 3: he was always so happy, or he seemed to be
Speaker 3: doing so well or whatnot. How could that have happened?
Speaker 3: That doesn't make any sense, you know. So sometimes it's
Speaker 3: it's really a terrible disaster like that. So a lot
Speaker 3: of people do put up a good front, and sometimes
Speaker 3: people put up a good front to themselves, like you're saying,
Speaker 3: by not allowing themselves to explore their own feelings in
Speaker 3: their own internal world to see what's going on with
Speaker 3: them until it starts to really get the better of them.
Speaker 3: And then and then you got the people who suppress
Speaker 3: it with self medication, you know, alcohol and drugs and
Speaker 3: all those sorts of or other kinds of activities that
Speaker 3: try to you know, they try to avoid what they
Speaker 3: can't face.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I always talk about my relationship
Speaker 2: with boxing in that exact manner. Was this My understanding
Speaker 2: of myself for my first thirty years was this independent, strong, brave, courageous,
Speaker 2: bloody thing. And eventually I started to have to question
Speaker 2: that and go, actually, these things that look like strength
Speaker 2: and independence and courage. If I don't feel fear about
Speaker 2: the things I'm doing that people think are courageous, then
Speaker 2: that's not really courage. That's me painting a picture of courage.
Speaker 2: What is it that actually scares me? And I had
Speaker 2: to kind of go hunting for it? I had to.
Speaker 2: I think that for me, the physical nature of boxing
Speaker 2: brought me back in touch with my body and physical
Speaker 2: sensations and it started to unravel a bit of self
Speaker 2: deep self awareness. And that's where this, I guess this
Speaker 2: sparked my interest and went, well, what is everyone's experience?
Speaker 2: And when you know, I think about it all the time,
Speaker 2: the conversations I have in this show, which are just
Speaker 2: curious around learning from others and understanding and hopefully uncovering
Speaker 2: resources that other people can connect with, but also being
Speaker 2: very conscious and aware that everyone is in a different
Speaker 2: and I have at different times I have been a
Speaker 2: different person if someone had come to me Richard when
Speaker 2: I was in my late twenties, before I had that
Speaker 2: revelation and said, hey, you know how you think, Hey, TIV,
Speaker 2: you know you think you're all brave and courageous and independent,
Speaker 2: You're actually you know, you're actually the opposite of all that,
Speaker 2: or to punished him in the face in the boxing ring.
Speaker 2: Of course, you know, like I wasn't ready, and so
Speaker 2: I'm I think about that in these conversations and at
Speaker 2: all of the different stages of experience and awareness and
Speaker 2: other people's actual physical circumstances and what I don't know
Speaker 2: or haven't experienced, and what you might know or have
Speaker 2: an experienced, and we try and communicate from these different places.
Speaker 2: That was a long winded rant, wasn't it, thoughts Well, well.
Speaker 3: That's because it's your lived experience, right, yeah, resonated right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: What are you with your with Bouldercrest? What are the
Speaker 2: things that aside from the relationships which you spoke about,
Speaker 2: what are the other tools that help people?
Speaker 3: Well, we we talked different about some different elements in
Speaker 3: our programs. So we have one program where people come
Speaker 3: to one of our facilities for a week and it's
Speaker 3: these are in rural places in the United States, beautiful
Speaker 3: places where you can find serenity, and we're in rural
Speaker 3: areas that are really beautiful, and we work with people
Speaker 3: in small groups about eight or so. And then we
Speaker 3: have other programs where we go out to organizations usually
Speaker 3: military bases or police departments or fire departments, places like that, prisons,
Speaker 3: you know, and work with staff in groups of maybe
Speaker 3: twenty five. So no matter which kind of when we're using, though,
Speaker 3: we're first trying to educate people on this idea of
Speaker 3: how events can affect people physically and psychologically, how their
Speaker 3: challenges and what happens to us, and that when we
Speaker 3: react this way physically and psychologically to these challenging events,
Speaker 3: even though we might feel like we're not ourselves or
Speaker 3: we feel like we're breaking down or something crazy about
Speaker 3: us or disordered or whatever, and we might be labeled
Speaker 3: that by some well meaning doctors or whatever, that these
Speaker 3: reactions we're having are just human reactions because we're human beings,
Speaker 3: and human beings respond a certain way to get hit
Speaker 3: with these kinds of events. So first's education about that
Speaker 3: where people learn that there's nothing wrong with them, it's
Speaker 3: what happened to them. And a lot of the people
Speaker 3: have come to us and been told to do something
Speaker 3: wrong with them. You know, they've had diagnosed sees and
Speaker 3: all kinds of medications and things like that, so you know,
Speaker 3: you're you're broken, you know, and and we tell them no,
Speaker 3: you're not, You're just a human being that's gone through
Speaker 3: some ship. So so so that's one thing. And then
Speaker 3: we help them with emotional regulation, because, as you're saying,
Speaker 3: you know, these these reactions are are really difficult to manage.
Speaker 3: So we we help people regulate their emotions. We teach
Speaker 3: them meditation, and we teach them how to breathe properly,
Speaker 3: and you know, how to how to have some ways
Speaker 3: of calming some of these reactions that they have, which
Speaker 3: are autonomic nervous system reactions just natural when you're in
Speaker 3: a state of fear in the aftermath of that. So
Speaker 3: then we then we have we try to help people
Speaker 3: talk or express in some way what they're going through
Speaker 3: so they're not just keeping it all to themselves and
Speaker 3: they're connecting with the people in their group, which is
Speaker 3: a remarkable thing that happens. I just love it. That's
Speaker 3: why I love, you know, group work. When you see
Speaker 3: people who take the chance to tell other people about
Speaker 3: their struggles and then other people start joining in and
Speaker 3: everybody everybody say, oh, you mean we're all in the
Speaker 3: same boat. Oh my goodness, I thought I was. I
Speaker 3: thought I was the only one. You know, you know,
Speaker 3: you too, Wow? Okay, maybe we're not all so bad
Speaker 3: off that or we're all crazy, but we know we're not.
Speaker 3: Because you you look like you're pretty good. I thought
Speaker 3: I was. So if you're pretty good and you're like me,
Speaker 3: maybe I'm pretty good. It's an amazing thing that when people
Speaker 3: start doing this, and you know, one of the things
Speaker 3: that's so cool about our programs we do. We in
Speaker 3: some of our programs we write in songwriters from Nashville
Speaker 3: country music songwriters, professional songwriters who wrote for the biggest
Speaker 3: country music acts. They come in and they spend they
Speaker 3: spend a day just talking to the people in our
Speaker 3: group and about what they went through, and out of
Speaker 3: that lyrics develop. They take the words of the people
Speaker 3: in the group and they create lyrics and they create
Speaker 3: a song out of it. And we've got all these songs,
Speaker 3: unbelievably beautiful songs written by these groups of veterans or
Speaker 3: first responders and a Nashville songwriter and it's amazing, like
Speaker 3: they could be on, you know, they could be on,
Speaker 3: they could be streamed, and their beautiful songs. So whatever
Speaker 3: the way of expressing might be through song or writing
Speaker 3: and write or talk, we have all kinds of ways
Speaker 3: of doing this, and then out of that we help
Speaker 3: people develop with their story is story of their lives,
Speaker 3: how they got to where they are, So they see
Speaker 3: the overall picture of you know, how they grew up,
Speaker 3: how they hit some things in their lives that were difficult,
Speaker 3: what's been happening to them, and the most important thing,
Speaker 3: where they're going next? What next? And the aftermath of
Speaker 3: all this? Where are they headed? Where could they go?
Speaker 3: What's the next chapter in the story. And we encourage
Speaker 3: the next chapters to be stories of service where they
Speaker 3: focus not on themselves and their own struggles so much
Speaker 3: as what values do I have? What have I learned?
Speaker 3: What can I bring to other people? How can I
Speaker 3: serve in a new way or a different way connected
Speaker 3: with other people, and help them develop a plan of service,
Speaker 3: and that may be within their families, it could be
Speaker 3: in their neighborhood of communities, it could be whatever resonates
Speaker 3: for them, whatever, and that way they start writing the
Speaker 3: new chapter what their lives are going to be going
Speaker 3: forward in a way that's really a value. So that's
Speaker 3: that's kind of the that's kind of the overall I
Speaker 3: don't know schematic of how we approach things at Bouldercrest,
Speaker 3: and it's all based on this post traumatic growth concept
Speaker 3: and all those steps that I just mentioned to you
Speaker 3: have been developed out of the research that we did
Speaker 3: for many years at UNC Charlotte, learning about what the
Speaker 3: process looks like when people live in the aftermath of
Speaker 3: traumatic events in a way which brings them into these
Speaker 3: growth perspectives. And we learned about that process through our
Speaker 3: research listening to people, and now we can take that
Speaker 3: and offer it back to facilitate this process and people
Speaker 3: that come to our programs.
Speaker 2: I love that so much, and I love the emphasis
Speaker 2: on that expression, finding a way to express If I,
Speaker 2: if I had any choice of what I came back
Speaker 2: as in my next life, it would be a singer songwriter.
Speaker 2: Like I think it would be the greatest gift to
Speaker 2: be able to express your deepest self and turn it
Speaker 2: into music that other people can connect to. I can't
Speaker 2: sing very well, Richard a lip sing happy birthday in
Speaker 2: front of family. I'm that musically gifted, But I love it.
Speaker 3: Think about it, tifany You know what happens in these
Speaker 3: in these in these groups do we do that they
Speaker 3: take things that are terrible that they've all experienced, and
Speaker 3: they offer it up to this songwriters helping them with that.
Speaker 3: And then the and see what happens is the songwriter
Speaker 3: takes all these lyrics, all these words and everything, and
Speaker 3: then the next day the songwriter comes in and says, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to play your song for you, and and
Speaker 3: they play this song. You know, usually just have a
Speaker 3: guitar lay a song, and what has been terrible is
Speaker 3: this beautiful thing. It's been terrible is turned into this
Speaker 3: beautiful thing that connects them all in the group, all
Speaker 3: of them here, all of them have their piece of
Speaker 3: that song because they've been heard, they've listened to, and
Speaker 3: it's been transformed into this beautiful work of art. So
Speaker 3: that and that's that's a great metaphor for their lives, right,
Speaker 3: that that what is terrible can be transformed into something
Speaker 3: valuable and useful, and that that can connect and resonate
Speaker 3: with other people, a perfect metaphor for their path going forward.
Speaker 2: What keeps some people stuck? Why do some people, even
Speaker 2: if just for a period of time, hold on to
Speaker 2: that thing like an anchor, or become really identified. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that can be said about just labels in general.
Speaker 2: It's labeling something can be really positive by way of
Speaker 2: giving us words and and an understanding of what's happening.
Speaker 2: But it could equally become an anchor that we attached to.
Speaker 2: So what have you learned about that?
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of reasons that I don't think
Speaker 3: I know all of them. But like I said, sometimes
Speaker 3: you just don't have the right people around you, who
Speaker 3: who you can feel you can trust and understand. So
Speaker 3: that may be one thing. Some people are immersed in
Speaker 3: some really negative habits which hold them back, some addictions
Speaker 3: and some other kinds of habits that make it hard
Speaker 3: for them to move forward to something positive. So there's
Speaker 3: that some people haven't found their way yet through things
Speaker 3: like guilt or blame. Guilt and blame are hard ones
Speaker 3: for people to get through sometimes. And then the other
Speaker 3: part of this, though, is when somebody is stuck, you know,
Speaker 3: they may just be stuck for this time, because this
Speaker 3: process of post traumatic growth happens over different periods of
Speaker 3: time for different people. So you take a snapshot of
Speaker 3: someone at one time and they look very stuck, you
Speaker 3: might come back some time later and they're not stuck anymore.
Speaker 3: So it's hard to tell who's going to remain stuck.
Speaker 3: Some people are going to remain stuck for the rest
Speaker 3: of their lives, or because of their stuckness, they prematurely
Speaker 3: end their lives because they can't find the hope to
Speaker 3: endure this stuck place anymore. You know, it's hard to say.
Speaker 3: Sometimes the pain is too great. It could be physical
Speaker 3: pain or psychological pain and just overwhelms some people and
Speaker 3: they don't they don't have the practices or support to
Speaker 3: endure it, you know. I mean, in your career in boxing,
Speaker 3: I'm sure a big part of what you had to
Speaker 3: figure out was how to endure pain and keep going. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so maybe sometimes it's too hard for some certain people.
Speaker 3: So there's all kinds of ways that that can happen.
Speaker 3: But I just want to emphasize that just because you're
Speaker 3: stuck at one point doesn't mean you're going to be
Speaker 3: stuck next month or next year, you know, could be different.
Speaker 2: I always I find that the interesting part of healing
Speaker 2: or growing or evolving or whatever it is that we're
Speaker 2: doing is well. I think about and often talk about
Speaker 2: to people, like when I first decided to do a
Speaker 2: boxing fight, how do you become a good fight? Well,
Speaker 2: the number one thing for you to get through that
Speaker 2: fight is to learn to learn how to just get hit.
Speaker 2: You've got to be able to take a punch in
Speaker 2: the face and keep doing whatever terrible skill set you
Speaker 2: have for as long as you can whilst getting punched.
Speaker 2: But a couple of years down the track, when you've
Speaker 2: increase your skill, that's no longer the aim of the game.
Speaker 2: And that's what when I talk about resilience and I
Speaker 2: go like, I think we're all stuck on the beginnings
Speaker 2: of resilience where it's all about just wearing the hard
Speaker 2: punch or you just got to get punched in the
Speaker 2: face and keep going. It's like, well, no, because in
Speaker 2: a couple of years time now resilience looks different. Now
Speaker 2: resilience is learning how to not get hit, both with
Speaker 2: skill but also with the intention that, hey, I don't
Speaker 2: want to get hurt. I want to win the fight,
Speaker 2: but I don't want to get hurt in the process.
Speaker 2: Like when I started to develop self love, self care,
Speaker 2: self worth, I had a hard to challenge to manage
Speaker 2: in the boxing ring because all of a sudden, I
Speaker 2: could feel the punches and I didn't want to wear
Speaker 2: them at the cost of landing them. All of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, it's harder for me to get
Speaker 2: in and get the punches because I don't want to
Speaker 2: wear them, because now I appreciate the fact that I
Speaker 2: don't want to get hurt, whereas but when I first started,
Speaker 2: I couldn't feel them. Oh, I was disassociated to a
Speaker 2: point and I would walk, I would wear anything, because
Speaker 2: it was all about just going I show you how
Speaker 2: tough I am and how much I can endure, because
Speaker 2: in silence, I'd endure it a lot over you know, Like,
Speaker 2: so there was this and that's just I guess self awareness,
Speaker 2: self understanding, and everybody's journey isn't the same. But that's
Speaker 2: why I find this topic so fascinating, because only I
Speaker 2: could know that for me, and only I could know
Speaker 2: when that change happens. So then when when you're running
Speaker 2: your groups and I'm dealing with groups of people and
Speaker 2: they're coming in with their version of the boxing ring
Speaker 2: or their version of a story, it's knowing that it's
Speaker 2: an ever evolving process. You're not talking to the same person,
Speaker 2: Like you're not the same Richard right now than you
Speaker 2: were forty minutes ago, because we've had a conversation and
Speaker 2: we might have said things and developed new understandings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, this perspective shift is something that
Speaker 3: you're talking about here that can be subtle, especially to
Speaker 3: the outsider, and you don't realize it's happening in someone.
Speaker 3: And so, for example, you're talking about how at one
Speaker 3: point in your career, let's say, your resilience was defined
Speaker 3: differently than it was at another point in your career, right,
Speaker 3: And so that's similar to what happens with this growth
Speaker 3: perspective where people will say, if you listen to them
Speaker 3: talk about their stories, they say things like, I thought
Speaker 3: I was living really well. I thought I had it
Speaker 3: figured out. I thought I was doing the right thing.
Speaker 3: But now I realized that now that really wasn't it.
Speaker 3: I've got a different way of seeing it now. So
Speaker 3: even though I would have given myself four stars in
Speaker 3: living you know, three years ago, now I would only
Speaker 3: give myself like two stars for that living. You know,
Speaker 3: you know, I've changed my whole measure of what good
Speaker 3: living looks like now that I have this perspective. So
Speaker 3: it's that shift in understanding what's valuable and what really
Speaker 3: makes sense in terms of living well that we see
Speaker 3: in this process which makes it very difficult sometimes when
Speaker 3: we're doing research to figure out how to measure these things,
Speaker 3: because you know, people will say they're doing really well,
Speaker 3: and then later they'll say they're doing really well, and
Speaker 3: if that's all you got, that's all you know. It
Speaker 3: looks like they have a change, you know. But what's
Speaker 3: happened is their new version of really well is different
Speaker 3: from their old version does really well. So it's a
Speaker 3: very tricky business, very tricky business.
Speaker 2: I remember across the years, like going to trying different
Speaker 2: therapies and things. And I remember a period of time
Speaker 2: when I was going to a therapist and I would
Speaker 2: think every time I'd be like, I don't even know
Speaker 2: what I'm going for, like everything's fine, I'll go anyway,
Speaker 2: and then things come up. But I remember one point
Speaker 2: where and this is like we evolve and we don't.
Speaker 2: We never give up. We push the goalpost and don't
Speaker 2: realize how much we're changing and evolving. And I remember
Speaker 2: as discussing a circumstance and she said to me, oh,
Speaker 2: that's that's very different to how you would have responded
Speaker 2: or approached it or whatever. And it was only in
Speaker 2: that moment when she sat and made me acknowledg and
Speaker 2: I went, oh, oh, I've changed a lot, and we
Speaker 2: forget that because we put ourselves stuck in this place.
Speaker 2: And like, I find that so valuable when people talk
Speaker 2: about therapy, like I'm such an advocate of you know,
Speaker 2: I'll have it whether I'm doing well or not doing well,
Speaker 2: like I've been doing well for a long time now,
Speaker 2: Like I haven't what. I don't perceive myself as having
Speaker 2: any real reason to need a therapist, but I continue
Speaker 2: to have a relationship with my therapist because I love
Speaker 2: the insights I get when I get to workshop the
Speaker 2: life of Tiff and see what's coming up with someone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I guess you're you're recognizing
Speaker 3: that there's always more room for something, yeah, and you're
Speaker 3: just allowing that process to keep occurring rather than shut
Speaker 3: it down and say, Okay, I'm done, I'm good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes well not Sometimes. I think perspective is
Speaker 2: a little bit easier when you're not in the middle
Speaker 2: of some ship storm.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like when life is just cruising along, you can
Speaker 2: kind of sit back, look at it and go, Okay,
Speaker 2: what cat do I do things? And you see things
Speaker 2: differently because you're not in the middle of some chaotic,
Speaker 2: oh help me period of doing. I'm not coping with
Speaker 2: this thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I think, you know. It's we also
Speaker 3: find though that a little bit of discomfort is a
Speaker 3: good thing, a good motivator for a change and change
Speaker 3: in perspective. So you can get too comfortable and complacent. Also,
Speaker 3: so something that's you know, just making you question a
Speaker 3: bit is is not a bad thing, but too much
Speaker 3: of it that when you're disoriented, you've got to get
Speaker 3: oriented enough to be able to think straight.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I love. The last couple of years I've
Speaker 2: been on just some short overseas trips and the last one,
Speaker 2: both of them were incredible just to get away and
Speaker 2: get perspective. The last one was literally life changing for me.
Speaker 2: I went to the Himalayas and we did a quite
Speaker 2: a spiritual kind of retreat and like just those moments
Speaker 2: where like we're sitting on the top of a mountain
Speaker 2: in the Himalayas, on top of them, I'm like that
Speaker 2: that is cloud underneath me. I'm looking down at the
Speaker 2: clouds underneath me, and the whole your whole life is
Speaker 2: just like oh, I'm everything and nothing like everything changed
Speaker 2: for me in that moment, And I love that. I
Speaker 2: love being able to have experiences like that that just
Speaker 2: go in this world where I'm in this tiny little
Speaker 2: suburb thinking a bit about these tiny little things.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, when you get that shift and perspective, yeah,
Speaker 3: that makes you start to think, Okay, from this perspective,
Speaker 3: how does it all look? Hows this life on living look?
Speaker 3: Then there's there's a lot really to consider. Yeah, it
Speaker 3: opens up a whole book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are yours? Do you have? How do you
Speaker 2: keep you well in the middle of life, especially when
Speaker 2: you work in an area where you're working you're kind
Speaker 2: of immersed in the prose traumatic growth space and trauma space.
Speaker 2: And how do you do you have non negotiables? What
Speaker 2: is your wellness philosophy?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, you know, I'm not necessarily all that very
Speaker 3: good at it. Thanks for honesty, not all that good,
Speaker 3: but because because I work a lot. But I'll tell
Speaker 3: you I love I love the work I do. So
Speaker 3: for example, this foundation's Bouldercrest Foundation is just full of
Speaker 3: the most remarkable people. You know, you're talking about Charlie Plumb.
Speaker 3: You know Charlie Plumb is you know, part of us
Speaker 3: and you know, when you're around people like that, it's like,
Speaker 3: how fortunate can be to be to be able to
Speaker 3: talk to people with these experiences and just everybody I
Speaker 3: met through this, this work with Bouldercrest, now, these first
Speaker 3: responders and military people, that's not that's not I didn't
Speaker 3: grow up with. That wasn't part of that. But you know,
Speaker 3: just amazing, some really amazing people who are just so
Speaker 3: dedicated to service. Yeah, I just love to be around them.
Speaker 3: They're full of such good humor. I mean, that's the
Speaker 3: other thing, just so funny. I love humor. Humor really
Speaker 3: keeps me going, you know. And and there are people
Speaker 3: I can just relax with and we can and we
Speaker 3: know all we're doing good work and we're pulling together.
Speaker 3: And you know, our CEO, Josh Goldberg always emphasizes it's
Speaker 3: not important who gets the credit. We're not about that.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter who gets the credit. It's our mission
Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter who gets credit as long as
Speaker 3: we're doing good work. So I love that. It makes everybody,
Speaker 3: you know, connect and support. So it's fun to be
Speaker 3: part of this group. And so that's one thing, just
Speaker 3: the people and the humor and the mission is something.
Speaker 3: You know. I feel so fortunate to be able to
Speaker 3: take the stuff that I've been working on in my
Speaker 3: life and see it utilized and changing people's lives. I mean,
Speaker 3: this is just amazing. I'm so grateful to Ken Falk
Speaker 3: who started this organization and brought me on board and
Speaker 3: we worked together to do this, and I'm so grateful
Speaker 3: that I got this opportunity. It's give my life such
Speaker 3: more meaning than it would have had if I just
Speaker 3: you know, the university was great, and I love teaching
Speaker 3: and students and all that, but this is a whole
Speaker 3: This is a whole different deal. I love my psychotherapy practice.
Speaker 3: Being a therapist is great. I mean, I've just been
Speaker 3: so lucky in doing work that's just so just love
Speaker 3: it all these different things. So that's that's part of it.
Speaker 3: I love being in beautiful places. You know. Where I
Speaker 3: live is beautiful. You know, I've been walking around today
Speaker 3: outside looking at all the flowers and everything and just
Speaker 3: I just love it. I just love the place, you know.
Speaker 3: I just love to look take it in.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I love my family. You know, I've had a wonderful
Speaker 3: weekend with family, and I love it when they love
Speaker 3: me so there's all that. I don't know. It's most
Speaker 3: it's mostly about the people. I guess when I start
Speaker 3: talking about it, it's all about the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, as you were talking, I wrote down and
Speaker 2: I reckon they are the three big rocks. And when
Speaker 2: you when you set up something like you have and
Speaker 2: those boxes are ticked, you can't lose. And that's hope, purpose,
Speaker 2: and connection. When you've got a purpose bigger than you,
Speaker 2: when you've got connection with good people, and hope is
Speaker 2: a huge one and you're giving it to people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a good life. It's good life.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it, and I and I and I've pay
Speaker 3: attention to what I'm grateful for. That's the other thing,
Speaker 3: you know, people, I've talked a lot in recent years
Speaker 3: about gratitude, the gratitude attitude or whatever, stuff like that.
Speaker 3: But the thing that it does when if you really
Speaker 3: practice it, is it changes the way you think. It
Speaker 3: changes your attention to the positive things in your life. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it forces your attention in that direction. So that's why
Speaker 3: thinking about what you're grateful for is so important, not
Speaker 3: just because you can recognize you're grateful for those things,
Speaker 3: but really changes your whole way of thinking about things
Speaker 3: so that when things get really rough, you still can
Speaker 3: recognize the positive aspects of your experience.
Speaker 2: I love it. You've been great. Tell us where we
Speaker 2: can go to find you online, some of your books.
Speaker 2: Where can we get some resources from you.
Speaker 3: Our website is Bouldercrest dot org. Bouldercrest dot org, so
Speaker 3: it's b O U L D E R c R
Speaker 3: E S t all one word bouldercrest dot org. And
Speaker 3: there's a ton of stuff there at that website. We've
Speaker 3: got some we got some books that are good. We've
Speaker 3: got one called Transformed by Trauma. Stories of Postraumatic Growth,
Speaker 3: So we publish that that it's a bunch of interviews
Speaker 3: with people who are good examples of post traumatic growth
Speaker 3: and they tell their stories and we kind of comment
Speaker 3: on how that describes the postmatic growth process and the
Speaker 3: different kinds of outcomes you see where people develop better
Speaker 3: relationships and see their new possibilities of their lives and
Speaker 3: their strength and our appreciative of their lives and really
Speaker 3: have a new spiritual sense of things. So those that's
Speaker 3: a good book. And then we have a workbook called
Speaker 3: the Postraumatic Growth Workbook, So people are interested in trying
Speaker 3: to help themselves through this process. That's another kind of resource.
Speaker 3: So we've we've got we got a lot of stuff there.
Speaker 3: People can gain a lot of think on that website.
Speaker 2: Awesome. I will have a link to that in the
Speaker 2: show notes. Thank you so much for both the conversation
Speaker 2: today and for doing the work you do well.
Speaker 3: I've enjoyed talking with you, Tiffany. You're a great interviewer
Speaker 3: and it's been like sitting down in our living room
Speaker 3: together and just chatting. So I've really enjoyed it. Thank
Speaker 3: you so much. It's good to hear in the Australian
Speaker 3: the Australian talk again. I've got some I've been to
Speaker 3: Australia a few times and I've got a really good
Speaker 3: friend there and she's great, and so I always like
Speaker 3: I always like hearing I.
Speaker 2: Have a very Australian accent, and I forget I forget
Speaker 2: when I host these conversations. And I just last night
Speaker 2: I went to a comedy gig with a chick who
Speaker 2: was in Australia at the moment, and she did a
Speaker 2: version of an Australian accent and it was she nailed
Speaker 2: it so much. And it's not until and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I said, that's so vogue, and I sound like like
Speaker 2: I forget, we forget. So thanks for that to my attention. Yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. Thanks everyone for tuning into this.
Speaker 2: Go and check out Bauldercrest. She said it's now and never.
Speaker 1: I got fighting in my blood