1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,870 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,170 --> 00:00:10,619 Sean Aylmer: Earlier this month we talked about Australia Post increasing the 3 00:00:10,619 --> 00:00:14,130 Sean Aylmer: cost of parcel and package delivery services by as much 4 00:00:14,130 --> 00:00:16,919 Sean Aylmer: as 10%. The changes are due to take effect soon 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,009 Sean Aylmer: and will likely hit small businesses hard, who, of course, 6 00:00:20,009 --> 00:00:23,790 Sean Aylmer: rely on postal services following the e- commerce boom. One 7 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:26,428 Sean Aylmer: of the other players in the space is an Australian 8 00:00:26,428 --> 00:00:30,210 Sean Aylmer: company called Sendle, S- E- N- D- L- E. It's 9 00:00:30,210 --> 00:00:32,370 Sean Aylmer: a bit of a David and Goliath situation, but it 10 00:00:32,370 --> 00:00:36,208 Sean Aylmer: shows just how technology can be used to disrupt a long- 11 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:40,500 Sean Aylmer: established business. James Chin Moody is the Founder and Chief 12 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,500 Sean Aylmer: Executive Officer of Sendle. James, welcome to Fear & Greed. 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:44,969 James Chin Moody: Thanks for having me, Sean. 14 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:47,070 Sean Aylmer: Now, I know you've got a few issues with the 15 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:49,740 Sean Aylmer: way Australia Post does business, and we'll get to those 16 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:51,719 Sean Aylmer: in a moment. But first of all, tell me the 17 00:00:51,719 --> 00:00:55,260 Sean Aylmer: Sendle story. You started almost 10 years ago. Why? 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,710 James Chin Moody: Yeah. Well, we actually started as our own first customer. 19 00:00:58,890 --> 00:01:02,160 James Chin Moody: We were running a marketplace, but we really needed a 20 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,490 James Chin Moody: much better shipping solution. It wasn't door to door and 21 00:01:05,490 --> 00:01:08,009 James Chin Moody: it was really expensive. And what we found was that 22 00:01:08,009 --> 00:01:10,740 James Chin Moody: there's a whole lot of enterprise level carriers out there, 23 00:01:11,459 --> 00:01:14,310 James Chin Moody: and that if we unite those networks, we could find 24 00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:17,940 James Chin Moody: capacity and make them available for the first time to ourselves, 25 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:21,360 James Chin Moody: and then what we realised, for small business. To give 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,789 James Chin Moody: you a sense of what this really means, to send 27 00:01:23,789 --> 00:01:26,219 James Chin Moody: a parcel, say 10 kilograms from one side of the 28 00:01:26,219 --> 00:01:28,949 James Chin Moody: country to the other, can cost you say $ 45. We 29 00:01:28,949 --> 00:01:32,580 James Chin Moody: can do it for less than half that. The savings 30 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:35,880 James Chin Moody: are incredible. It's faster, and everything we can do, we 31 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,710 James Chin Moody: can do door to door. We'll pick it up from you. 32 00:01:38,010 --> 00:01:40,709 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how? I mean, I think you did give the 33 00:01:40,709 --> 00:01:43,709 Sean Aylmer: answer to that question already, but just explain why you 34 00:01:43,709 --> 00:01:44,550 Sean Aylmer: can do it cheaper. 35 00:01:45,539 --> 00:01:47,969 James Chin Moody: Well, a lot of folk don't realize it, we sometimes 36 00:01:47,969 --> 00:01:52,020 James Chin Moody: think that a monopoly wrapped in a habit is invisible. 37 00:01:52,590 --> 00:01:54,540 James Chin Moody: And what a lot of folk don't realize is there 38 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:57,119 James Chin Moody: is an alternative to Australia Post or there are alternatives 39 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,450 James Chin Moody: to Australia Post. There are so many trucks driving around. 40 00:02:00,509 --> 00:02:03,180 James Chin Moody: What we found is that we can actually unite that 41 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,420 James Chin Moody: other network that's out there, the Non Australia Post Network, 42 00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:09,240 James Chin Moody: and make it available for small business. And what we're 43 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,160 James Chin Moody: really doing is starting to fill all those trucks that 44 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,130 James Chin Moody: are delivering stuff to your homes and taking them and 45 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:17,490 James Chin Moody: filling them up with parcels. And instead of going on 46 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:20,190 James Chin Moody: the back haul with empty air, we can actually start 47 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:23,038 James Chin Moody: filling them with parcels that makes the entire network more 48 00:02:23,038 --> 00:02:27,030 James Chin Moody: efficient, which translates directly into savings for small businesses. 49 00:02:28,050 --> 00:02:30,389 Sean Aylmer: There must be a big technology basis to this, because 50 00:02:30,389 --> 00:02:33,809 Sean Aylmer: my experience, I suppose in newspaper land and getting newspapers 51 00:02:33,809 --> 00:02:36,299 Sean Aylmer: delivered, was always the last mile was by far the 52 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:39,929 Sean Aylmer: hardest part of it. I mean, getting something from Perth 53 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:44,250 Sean Aylmer: to Melbourne might be okay, but getting it to a 54 00:02:44,250 --> 00:02:47,190 Sean Aylmer: suburb of Melbourne, getting it to Toorak or somewhere, that 55 00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:49,709 Sean Aylmer: can be a bit trickier. Maybe Toorak's a bad example, 56 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:53,099 Sean Aylmer: but where is the hard part and how does technology 57 00:02:53,099 --> 00:02:53,700 Sean Aylmer: play a role? 58 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,730 James Chin Moody: Yeah, I mean, look there's a lot of technology behind 59 00:02:56,730 --> 00:02:58,440 James Chin Moody: it. Making sure that we can send a parcel from 60 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,829 James Chin Moody: everywhere to everywhere with a minimum of a one. And 61 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:03,570 James Chin Moody: Sendle, by the way, is we're not just in Australia. 62 00:03:03,570 --> 00:03:06,300 James Chin Moody: We've now sent a parcel from every single three digit 63 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:08,519 James Chin Moody: ZIP in America to every other three digit ZIP in 64 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,419 James Chin Moody: America. And we now cover 99% of Canada. And what's 65 00:03:12,419 --> 00:03:15,660 James Chin Moody: really interesting, the technology makes us not just a lot 66 00:03:15,660 --> 00:03:18,389 James Chin Moody: cheaper than Australia Post, but we were the only carrier 67 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,960 James Chin Moody: to not go down during COVID, for example, because we 68 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,330 James Chin Moody: knew that something happened to the network, we could quickly 69 00:03:24,330 --> 00:03:26,730 James Chin Moody: repair it, and often we'd send out trucks to pick 70 00:03:26,730 --> 00:03:29,790 James Chin Moody: up all the parcels outside that. So yeah, I mean 71 00:03:29,790 --> 00:03:32,129 James Chin Moody: there's a lot of technology behind... For what it really 72 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,969 James Chin Moody: translates to is finding space in networks and making that 73 00:03:35,969 --> 00:03:38,520 James Chin Moody: space available to small business at a reduced price. 74 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,910 Sean Aylmer: And these are all contractors, the actual drivers of the 75 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:44,430 Sean Aylmer: trucks or the deliveries of the parcels and that? 76 00:03:45,210 --> 00:03:48,990 James Chin Moody: Yeah, indeed. They're contractors or franchisees and it's a massive 77 00:03:48,990 --> 00:03:49,920 James Chin Moody: national network. 78 00:03:49,980 --> 00:03:52,920 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in that. Can I have 79 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,160 Sean Aylmer: a sense of how many parcels you deliver? 80 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,720 James Chin Moody: So we're sending millions and millions of parcels all around 81 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,120 James Chin Moody: the world. We don't generally give out our total numbers, 82 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,670 James Chin Moody: but to give you a sense, we've now sent over 83 00:04:06,150 --> 00:04:08,940 James Chin Moody: 300 billion kilometers of parcel delivery. 84 00:04:09,839 --> 00:04:10,739 Sean Aylmer: That is a great stat. 85 00:04:10,859 --> 00:04:14,790 James Chin Moody: Yeah, exactly. We've crossed Voyager. That was the first goal. 86 00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:16,710 James Chin Moody: First it was send enough to go from here to 87 00:04:16,710 --> 00:04:18,810 James Chin Moody: the moon, then we hit the sun, then we went 88 00:04:18,810 --> 00:04:21,870 James Chin Moody: outside the solar system, and now we're well past Voyager. 89 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,609 Sean Aylmer: Right. Well done. And mostly do you sell on your... Or the 90 00:04:26,610 --> 00:04:29,429 Sean Aylmer: point of difference is obviously cost, you've mentioned that, but 91 00:04:29,490 --> 00:04:32,340 Sean Aylmer: is it tracking? What other points of difference do you have? 92 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,850 James Chin Moody: So you think of it as simple, reliable, and affordable. Small 93 00:04:35,850 --> 00:04:38,580 James Chin Moody: businesses really need to spend their time working out how 94 00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:40,650 James Chin Moody: to grow their business. That's what you really want to 95 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:43,079 James Chin Moody: do when you're in business. So not only do we 96 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:46,379 James Chin Moody: actually have a price guarantee that we're cheaper than Australia 97 00:04:46,379 --> 00:04:48,870 James Chin Moody: Post for the same city in the national parcels, but 98 00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:51,300 James Chin Moody: actually we also try to save a lot of money. 99 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:56,040 James Chin Moody: Everything for us is no contracts, no minimums, included insurance, 100 00:04:57,059 --> 00:05:00,059 James Chin Moody: try to have no surprises. It's all about trying to 101 00:05:00,059 --> 00:05:05,128 James Chin Moody: create a simple, reliable, and most importantly, affordable parcel delivery 102 00:05:05,129 --> 00:05:06,360 James Chin Moody: service for small business. 103 00:05:06,719 --> 00:05:09,480 Sean Aylmer: Okay, and then coverage is very broad across Australia? 104 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 James Chin Moody: Yes. So again, we can send a parcel to anywhere 105 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,240 James Chin Moody: in Australia. We can send it to anywhere on actually 106 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:17,669 James Chin Moody: a non embargoed part of planet Earth. 107 00:05:18,029 --> 00:05:18,450 Sean Aylmer: Right. 108 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,238 James Chin Moody: So yes, we've got all the coverage you need. 109 00:05:21,809 --> 00:05:23,849 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me James. We'll be back in a minute. 110 00:05:29,910 --> 00:05:33,150 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to James Chin Moody, founder and CEO of 111 00:05:33,150 --> 00:05:36,750 Sean Aylmer: Sendle. You are carbon- neutral, a certified B Corp. I 112 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:38,849 Sean Aylmer: was reading about the investor who offered you a million 113 00:05:38,849 --> 00:05:42,719 Sean Aylmer: dollars in funding on condition that you stopped pursuing that. 114 00:05:43,589 --> 00:05:46,169 Sean Aylmer: Clearly you turned them down. Why is it so important 115 00:05:46,170 --> 00:05:46,470 Sean Aylmer: to you? 116 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:49,890 James Chin Moody: Yeah, well, one of the really deep parts of the 117 00:05:49,890 --> 00:05:53,789 James Chin Moody: ethos of the company is about taking responsibility. When something 118 00:05:53,790 --> 00:05:58,080 James Chin Moody: goes wrong, we need to fix it, and that responsibility 119 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,070 James Chin Moody: actually extends to taking responsibility for the emissions of that 120 00:06:02,070 --> 00:06:05,520 James Chin Moody: parcel. In fact, from day one, so this is back 121 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,339 James Chin Moody: when we sent our very first parcel, it's around about 122 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:12,178 James Chin Moody: 2014 now, we decided that we wanted to try to 123 00:06:12,178 --> 00:06:14,549 James Chin Moody: do things in a different way. We're here to level 124 00:06:14,549 --> 00:06:18,029 James Chin Moody: the playing field between small business and big business. We're 125 00:06:18,029 --> 00:06:21,089 James Chin Moody: here to really break the monopoly. There's a functional monopoly 126 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:23,250 James Chin Moody: in place in many of the places that I've just 127 00:06:23,250 --> 00:06:27,240 James Chin Moody: mentioned around parcel delivery. But more importantly, we think that 128 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,178 James Chin Moody: the entire world of logistics, that high world of transport 129 00:06:30,178 --> 00:06:33,899 James Chin Moody: and logistics, should start taking responsibility for its emissions. So 130 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:37,200 James Chin Moody: yeah, every single parcel we've ever sent, we actually, one, 131 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:39,419 James Chin Moody: we're trying to make the networks more efficient. We're trying 132 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,238 James Chin Moody: to convert the networks into, and we've done that in 133 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,060 James Chin Moody: some parts of the network already, to where we can 134 00:06:45,330 --> 00:06:48,779 James Chin Moody: use electric vehicles, but then everything that's left, we actually 135 00:06:48,779 --> 00:06:51,058 James Chin Moody: do make sure that we've got enough carbon abatement in 136 00:06:51,059 --> 00:06:53,880 James Chin Moody: place to make that parcel delivery carbon- neutral. 137 00:06:54,809 --> 00:06:57,029 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So just how do you do that? Is it buying 138 00:06:57,029 --> 00:06:58,140 Sean Aylmer: carbon offsets or is it... 139 00:06:58,350 --> 00:07:00,750 James Chin Moody: We do. Yes, so we work with a company called 140 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:03,570 James Chin Moody: South Pole. And in fact, one of the things, because 141 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,509 James Chin Moody: every single parcel is offset, we actually let our customers 142 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:09,299 James Chin Moody: vote on where they would like the offsets. We pre- 143 00:07:09,299 --> 00:07:11,400 James Chin Moody: vet them, of course, but where they would like to 144 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,930 James Chin Moody: actually see the emissions reductions programs come into place. 145 00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:20,280 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now, I mentioned that you have some concerns over 146 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,639 Sean Aylmer: the way Australia Post does business and what you've described 147 00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:28,230 Sean Aylmer: as anti competitive behaviour. Explain that. What are you talking 148 00:07:28,230 --> 00:07:29,190 Sean Aylmer: about in that instance? 149 00:07:30,119 --> 00:07:33,450 James Chin Moody: Yeah. Well, I think the one thing is, Australia Post 150 00:07:33,450 --> 00:07:35,970 James Chin Moody: is a bit of a hybrid, if you think about 151 00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:39,029 James Chin Moody: as a licensed monopoly for the letter business. But that 152 00:07:39,030 --> 00:07:43,380 James Chin Moody: is really also then being used by a parcel business 153 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:48,539 James Chin Moody: that is in some ways stifling, we believe, competition. And 154 00:07:48,570 --> 00:07:51,480 James Chin Moody: also more importantly, and we've just seen the rates go 155 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,950 James Chin Moody: up by almost 10%. It's hurting small businesses. And so 156 00:07:55,950 --> 00:07:59,010 James Chin Moody: there is an actual inquiry into postal reform at the moment. 157 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,790 James Chin Moody: We put forward some suggestions around Australia Post and a 158 00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:05,850 James Chin Moody: vision for Australia Post, which is much more open, which 159 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:10,440 James Chin Moody: can also be the foundation of a lot of innovation, 160 00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:12,660 James Chin Moody: in a similar way that we work with the U.S. Postal 161 00:08:12,660 --> 00:08:15,660 James Chin Moody: Service actually in the U.S. So we have a very 162 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:18,330 James Chin Moody: different relationship with the U. S. Postal Service than we 163 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:20,969 James Chin Moody: do with Australia Post here. Whereas Australia Post, we don't 164 00:08:20,969 --> 00:08:23,879 James Chin Moody: use their network, we can't use their network, and in fact, 165 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:26,790 James Chin Moody: we are here absolutely to be a competitor to them 166 00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:27,150 James Chin Moody: right now. 167 00:08:28,170 --> 00:08:31,380 Sean Aylmer: Okay. The part I didn't understand that... So certainly a 168 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:35,550 Sean Aylmer: letter delivery service, should they not be a parcel delivery service? 169 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:39,629 James Chin Moody: Oh, they should, absolutely. I think that there's plenty of room, 170 00:08:39,990 --> 00:08:44,070 James Chin Moody: but for example, they restrict access to P.O. Boxes. Imagine if 171 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:48,328 James Chin Moody: you could only call a home phone number that was 172 00:08:48,330 --> 00:08:50,309 James Chin Moody: a Telstra home phone number if you had a Telstra 173 00:08:50,309 --> 00:08:50,910 James Chin Moody: mobile phone. 174 00:08:51,059 --> 00:08:52,199 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, right, right. 175 00:08:53,429 --> 00:08:55,200 James Chin Moody: There's a whole lot of pieces as you start to 176 00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:58,019 James Chin Moody: plug in there. And also, there's places where we could 177 00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:01,140 James Chin Moody: look at job share, or parts where... Imagine if you 178 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:04,740 James Chin Moody: have rural areas where it doesn't make sense for multiple 179 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:08,610 James Chin Moody: drivers, or it becomes very inefficient for multiple drivers to 180 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:09,570 James Chin Moody: be going in one place. 181 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,270 Sean Aylmer: Is that the sort of thing you're talking when you're talking... 182 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:15,630 Sean Aylmer: You mentioned the U.S. , but with other one- time monopoly 183 00:09:15,630 --> 00:09:18,300 Sean Aylmer: service providers overseas. Is that the sort of thing you're 184 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:19,170 Sean Aylmer: talking to them about? 185 00:09:19,710 --> 00:09:23,610 James Chin Moody: Absolutely. So for example, U.S. has got a workshare program where 186 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:26,940 James Chin Moody: they actually open up their last mile for other providers to 187 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:29,819 James Chin Moody: actually say, "Well, if I can do all the medium mile, 188 00:09:30,540 --> 00:09:33,690 James Chin Moody: the line hauling, we can share the last mile." And 189 00:09:33,690 --> 00:09:35,549 James Chin Moody: I know we're not the only one who's put forward 190 00:09:35,549 --> 00:09:38,370 James Chin Moody: submissions like this. I know that Team Global Express has 191 00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:41,760 James Chin Moody: as well. But I think it's really about modernising and 192 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,429 James Chin Moody: opening up that network for the benefit of everyone, because 193 00:09:44,429 --> 00:09:46,439 James Chin Moody: it is ultimately, at the end of the day, an 194 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,780 James Chin Moody: investment that the country has made and how do we 195 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:49,620 James Chin Moody: make it more effective? 196 00:09:50,309 --> 00:09:52,049 Sean Aylmer: And given the e- commerce boom isn't going to slow 197 00:09:52,049 --> 00:09:55,650 Sean Aylmer: down, I suspect this is going to be an issue 198 00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:57,300 Sean Aylmer: going forward many, many years. 199 00:09:58,110 --> 00:09:59,880 James Chin Moody: Indeed. And what does it translate to at the end 200 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,990 James Chin Moody: of the day? You mentioned the Australia Post price rises. 201 00:10:05,490 --> 00:10:09,719 James Chin Moody: Ultimately it means better rates for small business and small 202 00:10:09,719 --> 00:10:12,419 James Chin Moody: business is the lifeblood of the economy. And e- commerce 203 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:17,010 James Chin Moody: is absolutely where we're seeing small businesses see opportunities. So 204 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:20,879 James Chin Moody: on the same day that Australia Post announced their price rises, 205 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,880 James Chin Moody: in turn, we actually announced the savings program called Ship 206 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,079 James Chin Moody: and Save because the more customers who use our alternative network, 207 00:10:28,529 --> 00:10:30,958 James Chin Moody: and the more parcels they send through it, the more 208 00:10:30,990 --> 00:10:33,150 James Chin Moody: efficient it becomes, and therefore we can actually give the 209 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:36,270 James Chin Moody: savings back to them. So that's the vision that we 210 00:10:36,270 --> 00:10:40,199 James Chin Moody: have for the future of e-commerce, where ultimately we are 211 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:45,359 James Chin Moody: not dominated by functional monopolies where we can actually really 212 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,539 James Chin Moody: lean into the efficiencies that you get as you start 213 00:10:48,539 --> 00:10:48,959 James Chin Moody: to scale. 214 00:10:49,769 --> 00:10:51,540 Sean Aylmer: James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:52,920 James Chin Moody: Thanks for having me. 216 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,208 Sean Aylmer: That was James Chin Moody founder and CEO of Sendle. 217 00:10:57,420 --> 00:10:59,610 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily interview. Join us 218 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:01,920 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 219 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,909 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.