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Speaker 1: Paul Taylor here and welcome to another edition of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Stuart Shanker, who founded the Merit Center

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Speaker 1: in Canada, an organization dedicated to understanding how stress affects

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Speaker 1: human behavior and to help both kids and adults self

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Speaker 1: regulate how they respond to stress in.

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Speaker 2: Order to improve their lives.

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Speaker 1: This turned out to be an absolutely fascinating conversation.

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Speaker 3: Stuart anchor, welcome, Thank you very much, Paul, lovely to

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Speaker 3: be here. I tell our listeners where you are right now? Okay,

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Speaker 3: I live on an island one hundred and sixty five

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Speaker 3: kilometers east of Toronto, in the middle of rural Ontario,

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Speaker 3: Thin Canada.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and winter, I would imagine gets a little bit frisky.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you were teasing me about this before we came on.

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Speaker 3: We get to about minus thirty five where I live. However,

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Speaker 3: it's a lake, so we got a wind chill factor.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing we probably hit minus fifty with the wind

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Speaker 3: chill minus fifty I think, so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow and what so what would happen?

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Speaker 2: Tell me this?

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Speaker 1: How long would you last if I went out there

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Speaker 1: in a T shirt?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'll tell you a great story. I used to

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Speaker 3: have a springer, So Springer spaniels have got to be

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Speaker 3: one of the stupidest dogs. We're walking along the causeway

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Speaker 3: and he spots a rabbit on the ice and he

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Speaker 3: goes tearing after it, and of course he falls through

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Speaker 3: the ice and he starts howling. So I have to

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Speaker 3: go in to drag him out. And it was cold,

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Speaker 3: but I was okay, but what And then the damn

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Speaker 3: rabbit it comes back the other way and the dog

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Speaker 3: goes after it again and goes through the ice again. No,

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Speaker 3: it's true, So I have to go in and get

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Speaker 3: him again. And the second time it hit me and

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Speaker 3: I just was standing still in the in the ice water,

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Speaker 3: and my son was watching all this, and he came

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Speaker 3: running out and basically saved my life. You know how

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Speaker 3: they talk about in hypothermia and a cute hypothermia, everything

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Speaker 3: shuts down. Yes, I couldn't move. I you must have

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Speaker 3: done that in your training it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we did cold water.

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Speaker 1: Well, when I say cold water, it wasn't quite like

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Speaker 1: that's probably ten degrees. And we get thrown in off

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Speaker 1: the back of a boat because I flew in helicopters, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I did know that, yeah, And then you

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Speaker 1: had to under your your life jacket which was under

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Speaker 1: our seat, and and try and get it up. But

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Speaker 1: within within a couple of minutes, your hands are just

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Speaker 1: completely useless.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, did you have were you wearing a wet skin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, we had what it's called a gun bag on.

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Speaker 1: But your hands are right, and god, it's it's pretty quick,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And the funny thing for me was afterwards they

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Speaker 3: got me in and put me in front of a fire.

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Speaker 3: It took me, i would say, four or five hours before. No,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have any nothing, nothing got hurt. But so

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Speaker 3: it was only moderate hypothermia, So I think the real

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Speaker 3: thing must be pretty rough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, as they say, we were always told in the military, right,

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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's relevant.

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Speaker 3: It's absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your your journey,

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Speaker 1: your your kind of educational journey, how you ended up

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Speaker 1: and doing what you currently do, and talk just a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the Merit Center.

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Speaker 3: So I'm a student at the University of Toronto and

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Speaker 3: I want a scholarship to go to Oxford and basically

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Speaker 3: stayed at Oxford for the next ten years and I

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Speaker 3: studied self regulation. As we were taught. It was really about,

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Speaker 3: you know, how the brain self regulates and then the

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Speaker 3: things we can learn to enhance it. And when I

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Speaker 3: came back to Canada, somebody said, I got a letter

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Speaker 3: from a journal and they said, I we see you've

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Speaker 3: done work in self regulation. Would you write an article

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Speaker 3: for us? So I said sure, but you know, let

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Speaker 3: me see what you guys have been doing. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what the hell they were talking about. They were

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Speaker 3: usually the same term. We actually did a study on

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Speaker 3: this a few years ago. There are four hundred and

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Speaker 3: forty seven different definitions of self regulation.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I know that is interesting because it actually

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Speaker 1: you continue and then I'll chip in.

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Speaker 3: Well. The original term was coined back at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the in nineteen twenties by an American physiologist called

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Speaker 3: Walter Bradford Cannon. Oh, Walter, did he learn fact? He

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Speaker 3: was the one. Wow, yeah, and what he what? What

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Speaker 3: Canon was interested in, and then following him sugging were

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Speaker 3: the self regulating mechanisms that are deep in the brain,

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Speaker 3: in the mid brain and in the brainstem, and how

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Speaker 3: these aren't powerful enough to deal with the stresses of life.

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Speaker 3: So Cannon's model was that we can enhance these with

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Speaker 3: what he called feed forward mechanisms so that we can

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Speaker 3: you know, deal with more and more stress. I mean

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Speaker 3: very much the kind of thing that you've dedicated your

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Speaker 3: life to. What are the skills that we can learn

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Speaker 3: so that we can we can handle greater and greater

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Speaker 3: stress loads without going into imbalance, without going into tackle stasis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, so I'm with all these guys are saying, I

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Speaker 3: don't know how they were talking about. You know, so

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Speaker 3: we were really looking at we were looking at physiology,

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Speaker 3: we're looking at the brain. So I wrote an article about,

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Speaker 3: you know, essentially how Cannon and Sellier looked at self

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Speaker 3: regulation and why it matters. That was the big thing,

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Speaker 3: why it matters, And it just exploded on us, and

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Speaker 3: you know, before we knew it. We got a huge

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Speaker 3: grant to study it, and we set up an institute,

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Speaker 3: a really cool institute where we had a therapy clinic

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Speaker 3: on one side and a neuroscience lab on the other.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, it was really cool. It was really cool.

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Speaker 3: So we would you know, we'd work with the kids

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Speaker 3: and then we you know, shoot them over into the

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Speaker 3: neural lab and see what was going on inside the brain. Nice,

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Speaker 3: so we were able to see in real time what

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Speaker 3: self regulation in Cannon's model, how it the impact that

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Speaker 3: it has on brain arousal and as a result of

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Speaker 3: brain rausal the rest of the other kinds of rows.

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Speaker 3: And then after that, so we got it. We got

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Speaker 3: ten million bucks to study all this. But the terms

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Speaker 3: were that we created an organization, the Merit Center, which

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Speaker 3: was really intended to disseminate this knowledge both in Canada

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Speaker 3: and around the world. Okay, And and that's.

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Speaker 2: What we do.

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Speaker 3: And that's how I ended up where I am.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty cold, and and look, we will dive

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Speaker 1: into that in a second. I just want to go

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Speaker 1: back to Oxford. So what did what exactly did you

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Speaker 1: study at Toronto? And then what did you study at Oxford?

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Speaker 3: So Toronto, I just did a general BA and then

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Speaker 3: at Oxford I did PPE philosophy, politics and economics. Okay,

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Speaker 3: and and then I did a b phil d phil.

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Speaker 3: And uh, it's really my defail is in the philosophy

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Speaker 3: of mathematics.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. But what I was looking at was I was

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Speaker 3: looking at the mathematics of artificial intelligence, the original systems

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Speaker 3: and those are self regulating algorithms. That's wow. That was

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Speaker 3: Truring's idea. And while I was in Oxford, I became

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Speaker 3: friends with a guy called Jerry Brunner. So have you

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Speaker 3: heard of Jerome Bruner. No, he was He was a

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Speaker 3: developmental psychologist, and he was incredible. And so I started

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Speaker 3: to hang out with him, and so I, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'd spend the morning doing this recursive you know, we

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Speaker 3: were working on something called recursive algorithms, and then the

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Speaker 3: afternoon looking at kids, right and and Jerry said to

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Speaker 3: me one day, he said, you know, he said, for

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Speaker 3: all this work you guys have done, it's a bit

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Speaker 3: like getting teflon out of NASSA. You know, you'll learn

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Speaker 3: more about You'll learn more about children by actually working

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Speaker 3: with children. So what I did was when I came

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Speaker 3: back to Canada, I actually trained in psychiatry under Stanley Greenspan.

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Speaker 3: And the clinic that we opened was a combination of

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Speaker 3: it was child psychiatry and neuroscience. And that's very much

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Speaker 3: the work I do today.

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Speaker 1: And that is very cool because look for many many decades,

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Speaker 1: actually centuries, and human behavior has been firmly in the

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Speaker 1: domain of psychologists, right who come up with all sorts

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Speaker 1: of theories, some of which are pretty good, some of

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Speaker 1: which pretty some of which are pretty loose as well.

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Speaker 1: But high has neuroscience, and that particularly the imaging of

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Speaker 1: the brain. How has that transformed or advanced our understanding

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Speaker 1: of both human behavior and development?

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Speaker 3: So that that really is a terrific question. And when

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Speaker 3: I was at Oxford, so in the I was in

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Speaker 3: grad school in the late seventies, and I remember we

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Speaker 3: had a professor who said to us one day, you know,

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Speaker 3: he said, we only studied the surface of the brain,

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Speaker 3: so we studied the new cortex, but mostly we just

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Speaker 3: studied this part here, the prefrontal. And he said, we're

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Speaker 3: never going to know what's going on below the surface.

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Speaker 3: We just don't have that technology. And so we've got

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Speaker 3: a you know, all we know is that that blue

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Speaker 3: brain somehow control the sort of the prefrontal, yeah, controls

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Speaker 3: impulses coming from the subcortex. That was the idea. And

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Speaker 3: psychology at this time was a self control psychology. So

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Speaker 3: the most famous study was Walter Mitchel a marketall task,

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Speaker 3: and that's a self control that's a delay of gratification task.

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Speaker 3: Idea here was you know, you mentioned to me before

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Speaker 3: we came on the dun needn't study you know this,

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Speaker 3: which you know. What Mitchell claimed to show was that

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Speaker 3: on children four to six, if they have trouble delaying gratification,

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Speaker 3: and he did his studies with kids that were four

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Speaker 3: to six years old when he came back and looked

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Speaker 3: at them in nineteen eighty nine, the original studies were

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Speaker 3: in the mid sixties. What he am was that the

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Speaker 3: two thirds of kids that couldn't delay gratification so called,

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Speaker 3: did really much much more poorly in life. So they

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Speaker 3: they had more social problems, they had more problems with

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Speaker 3: mental health, problems with they had poor education, and so.

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Speaker 2: On and so on.

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Speaker 3: What Dunedin did was confirmed these long term findings that

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Speaker 3: Michelle had made. But when we look at this, you know,

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Speaker 3: you can't fight the data. We thought there's something real

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Speaker 3: interesting going on here, and what we wanted to know

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Speaker 3: was why and what's happened in neuroscience over the last

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Speaker 3: i would say twenty five years. Is we can answer

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Speaker 3: the why now. And just to give you some idea

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Speaker 3: of how like we talk about the revolution in neuroscience,

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Speaker 3: people don't appreciate I know you do because of the

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Speaker 3: because of your education but the general public doesn't realize.

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Speaker 3: You know, we didn't even know what better thanendorphins were

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Speaker 3: until the early seventies. Did you know what? You know?

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Speaker 3: I study stress and the start of the stress cycle

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Speaker 3: is something called CIRF carticle trope and factor release the factory.

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Speaker 3: We didn't discover that until nineteen eighty one studies. There's

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Speaker 3: one eighty one. Yeah, CRF is eighty one. These are

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Speaker 3: very recent discoveries. And so what has happened is over

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Speaker 3: the last twenty five years we have a real good understanding.

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Speaker 3: Now there's more to go, but we know what's going

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Speaker 3: on below the surface. We know what's going on in

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Speaker 3: the limbic system, and we know what's going on in

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Speaker 3: the mid brain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so now just for our listeners, can you

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Speaker 1: just differentiate between the olympic system, mid brain, these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, because there are times that we're familiar with

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Speaker 1: but they may not be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be great if you could throw a

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Speaker 3: graphic if they if you give them our website, we

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Speaker 3: give graphics for free where you can see all this.

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Speaker 3: So if you can imagine, you know, here's the brain, right,

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Speaker 3: that's the famous when your PowerPoint doesn't work you just

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Speaker 3: hold up you your fist.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So the surface of the brain is the neo cortex,

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Speaker 3: and what we're really interested in when we study things

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Speaker 3: like language problems, solving self awareness, is we're looking at

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Speaker 3: this part of the prefrontal cortex, this part of the

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Speaker 3: neocortex called the prefrontal Underneath this cortex, it's like a mantle.

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Speaker 3: There's another system called that we call the Olympic system,

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Speaker 3: and so it's composed. Its primary structures are the amygdala,

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Speaker 3: the hippocampus, the hypothalamus, and the stratum. And so this

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Speaker 3: was a this is what we studied my own neuroscience lab.

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Speaker 3: This is a source of things like emotions. So we

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Speaker 3: and it was called Joseph Little dou called it the

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Speaker 3: emotional brain. That, by the way, is also recent. That

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Speaker 3: was ninety six.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I read.

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Speaker 1: I read that book, Joseph's Emotional Brain, Brilliant Pook, ninety six.

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Speaker 3: And then underneath that there's another brain layer. So this

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Speaker 3: so you've got this Olympics system. The Limbic system is

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Speaker 3: huge because when children, when babies are born. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how much neuro you want here, but basically.

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Speaker 1: You can you can't do enough neuroscience, right, but not

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Speaker 1: on this podcast.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, we use the term secondary altriciality to

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Speaker 3: describe human babies. And what that means is we now

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Speaker 3: believe that all human babies are born around two to

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Speaker 3: four months premature. And this and the reason for this

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Speaker 3: has to do with, you know, how big our brains are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the size of our brain, isn't it getting through

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Speaker 2: the pelvis exactly right?

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Speaker 3: And so the brain explodes at birth and you start

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Speaker 3: getting you know, seven hundred new synapses forming every single second.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Now the baby, the newborn can self regulate the newborn.

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Speaker 3: This is a very important part of Cannon's model. The

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Speaker 3: newborn has some very crude self regulating mechanisms. One of

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Speaker 3: them is crying. And what crying does is it expresses.

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Speaker 3: It helps the baby express through the tears, excess energy,

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Speaker 3: the energy building up. That's what the stress is causing.

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Speaker 3: But the most important one that the baby has is

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Speaker 3: falling asleep. So what falling asleep does is it reduces

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Speaker 3: the amount of energy coming into the baby's nervous system

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Speaker 3: right now, it doesn't block it completely. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: newborn sleep is a very weird phenomenon. So here you've

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Speaker 3: got this newborn. Now here's a great example that Canon gave.

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Speaker 3: So you got this baby that can close its eyes,

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Speaker 3: fall asleep when there's too much noise or too much light,

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Speaker 3: but it can't really do anything if it gets cold,

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Speaker 3: and if it gets cool, that's really really dangerous. So

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Speaker 3: it's up to the caregiver to regulate the baby. It's

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Speaker 3: up to the caregiver to say, monitor skin, skin color,

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Speaker 3: and see when the baby needs to have a blanket

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Speaker 3: put on or have the blanket taken off. There's a

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Speaker 3: So the key idea here is that we refer to

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Speaker 3: the newborn as essentially a fetus outside.

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Speaker 2: The womb for that interesting concept.

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Speaker 3: So then it raises a really intriguing question. And the

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Speaker 3: question it raises is if you think this newborn is

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Speaker 3: still fetal, what takes the rule of the umbilical cord.

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Speaker 3: And the answer is that we landed on is called

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Speaker 3: the inter brain, and that was a term coined by

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Speaker 3: Digby Tantum psychologists in the UK. The inter brain is

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Speaker 3: this is important for the inter brain is a wireless

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Speaker 3: connection from brain to brain, from mummy's brain to baby.

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Speaker 3: And what's important here is it's not just a case

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Speaker 3: of saying that the mummy is reading what the baby's feeling.

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Speaker 3: The mummy is actually feeling what the baby is feeling.

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Speaker 3: It's a shared experience. Likewise, the baby is feeling what

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Speaker 3: the mother is feeling.

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Speaker 4: So I mentioned how the mirror neurons play a role

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Speaker 4: in this absolutely absolutely well, they're doing the baby right,

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Speaker 4: So it's huge in the baby.

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Speaker 3: These mirror neurons are critical for say, learning language, where

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Speaker 3: they can feel when they're making the same mouth movements. Now,

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Speaker 3: I mentioned how at the moment of birth, the brain's exploding.

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Speaker 3: It's just bursting and snaptagenesis being birds, and so the

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Speaker 3: question is, okay, so you're talking about the brain to

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Speaker 3: brain hookup which parts of the brain, And the answer

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Speaker 3: is the olympic system. It's a prefrontal, the prefrontal. It's

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Speaker 3: still growing. Yeah, so the baby's olympic system ties into

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Speaker 3: the mother's olympic system. And this inter brain connection is

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Speaker 3: actually going to It's with us our entire life. And

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Speaker 3: when it doesn't work, we start to look at, well,

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Speaker 3: what is blocking the interbrain and the answer is always

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Speaker 3: the same. It's always stressed. Whatever the stress is is

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Speaker 3: blocking the interbrain. So with this sudden discovery where we

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Speaker 3: could actually see and this is what I did in

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Speaker 3: my lap where we can see the interplay of mummies,

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Speaker 3: mummy'slympic system in the baby's olympic system. This is like, wow,

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Speaker 3: we can see arousal. Now, we can see how it's

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Speaker 3: a f behavior, how it's affecting everything. But then was

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Speaker 3: the next step. And the next step is Okay, so

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Speaker 3: you've got this, You've got this neo cortex, this mantle,

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Speaker 3: and underneath it, you've got this limbic brain. What's underneath

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Speaker 3: the limbic brain, and underneath that is what we call

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Speaker 3: the midbrain, and the midbrain and the brain step. Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is really interesting stuff because these control Okay, so

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Speaker 3: everybody on this call has probably heard you talk about

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Speaker 3: fighter flight. Correct, Okay, so fighter flight comes from this midbrain.

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Speaker 3: So fighter flight, what happens is the amygdalas sends no

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Speaker 3: alarm signal down to the midbrain. The midbrain releases nor epinephrine,

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Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're fighting or your fleet.

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Speaker 3: But the midbrain does a hell of a lot more.

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Speaker 3: And the midbrain was designed to maintain homeostasis and a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of systems. Okay, So I'm just assumed that

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Speaker 3: I should quickly explain it.

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Speaker 1: Homeostats is slutely yes, because if your homeostasis is a

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Speaker 1: very important concept in Verman.

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Speaker 3: Diology, right, okay, yes, okay, So homeostasis. What we're looking

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Speaker 3: at is we have all these systems in the body

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Speaker 3: and the brain that have a functional operating ring. And

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Speaker 3: so I'll give you one. I'll give you a very

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Speaker 3: simple example. We need a certain amount of oxygen in

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Speaker 3: our bloodstream, yep.

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Speaker 2: And and.

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Speaker 3: So I have an eye watch. Now, my eyewatch actually

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Speaker 3: has an alarm on it for if my blood oxygen

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Speaker 3: drops below ninety five percent. Ideally we want to be

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Speaker 3: ninety seven ninety eight percent. But the brain has its

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Speaker 3: own system for monitor oxygen levels in the bloodstream, and

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Speaker 3: it's in the brainstem, it's in the medulla of lung gotta.

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Speaker 3: And so what it does is it monitors It's like

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Speaker 3: a toilet with a bullcock valve. If that oxygen drops

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Speaker 3: down below ninety five ninety four, what happens is the

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Speaker 3: medulla oblungtta sends a signal telling the heart and the

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Speaker 3: lungs to breathe faster, breathe deeper, bring in more oxygen.

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Speaker 3: To compensate. And it also it sends up some sensations.

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Speaker 3: It feels really really and this is a huge part

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Speaker 3: of your training how to deal with those aversive sensations

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Speaker 3: that oxygen deprivation causes. It makes you, you know, it

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Speaker 3: makes you panicky, it makes you busy, and that's part

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Speaker 3: of what you were learning. You were learning how to

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Speaker 3: be how to ignore these resus sensations, knowing that you

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Speaker 3: would get through this and eventually yep.

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Speaker 1: Can I give you just a little anecdote here. So

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Speaker 1: my PhD supervisor, Eugene is a brilliant scientist and he

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Speaker 1: actually looked at and did a study and looking at

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Speaker 1: special forces soldiers or well, he didn't actually do the study,

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Speaker 1: but talks about this study that there's a test that

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Speaker 1: he had taught me a CO two tolerance test. Interesting, right,

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Speaker 1: So basically me and you to do the Coe two

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Speaker 1: tolerance test. And I'm not recommending don't try this at

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Speaker 1: home people, but we basically and breathe in, then breathe out,

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Speaker 1: and then you time when you need.

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Speaker 2: That first breath, right, that that that.

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Speaker 1: Reflex, that breathing reflex that comes from from the deep breath, right,

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Speaker 1: And then what we would do. So say, your views

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Speaker 1: might be thirty seconds, mine might be twenty five seconds.

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Speaker 2: But then we do it again and.

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Speaker 1: We see how much further we can actually go. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: how much can you tolerate a thigh levels of coal two?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Because actually that high levels of CEL two that and

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Speaker 1: it's a discomfort tolerance test, right, It is actually predictive

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Speaker 1: of success in special forces training. Right, Those who are

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Speaker 1: able to tolerate high levels of seal to start can to

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Speaker 1: do better on special forces training, which is pretty amazing.

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Speaker 3: That is absolutely fascinating and it's exactly what I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about now. So what the listener has to understand is

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Speaker 3: everything that Paul just described is all autonomic. So this

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Speaker 3: is an automatic reaction to the CO two build up

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Speaker 3: in the bloodstream, causing these feelings, causing you this this

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Speaker 3: urgent need to breathe. In fact, panic disorder is related

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Speaker 3: to this absolutely. But what Paul is describing is how

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Speaker 3: through basically WheelPower through self control. So there's a great

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Speaker 3: example of self control. You can you can suppress, you

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Speaker 3: can inhibit these aversive sensations, you can override them into

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Speaker 3: la oblong gana and not take that breath. And we

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Speaker 3: know now that. Okay, so that's now what's fascinating. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So the important point this is all happening deep inside

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Speaker 3: the brain. These reactions are autonomic. We don't we're not

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Speaker 3: aware of them. We don't control them. We have a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, breathing, digestion, exact bates, all of that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So let me give you another example. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so we've got this mid brain and one of the Okay,

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Speaker 3: so just so people can visualize this seat looking at

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Speaker 3: a brain and this is way way down just above

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Speaker 3: the brain stem and just below the olympic system.

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Speaker 1: Can I give you a visual on this because I've

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Speaker 1: done I've done this before.

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Speaker 2: And I just remembered about this.

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Speaker 1: So when I talked about the you know, development of

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Speaker 1: the brain or the layers of the Brian that that

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Speaker 1: try and Brian model. That's golf club a driver, right,

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Speaker 1: and I use the driver as the Brian stand and

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Speaker 1: the mid Brian. And then I take a you know,

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Speaker 1: the cover that goes on the driver, stick that over it.

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Speaker 2: That's your limbic system.

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Speaker 1: And then I get a kid's bicycle helmet and stick

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Speaker 1: it on the top of that and there's cortex, right.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that's just wonderful, right, and I will I

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Speaker 3: will steal that. You're welcome, okay. So now, so we're

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Speaker 3: looking at this mid brain now, and so there's a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of homeostatic systems. So Paul just mentioned another one.

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Speaker 3: It's a big one. We need a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: energy glucose in our bloodstream, and if our energy drops,

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Speaker 3: it triggers in a little tiny part of the mid

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Speaker 3: ring called the ventral tegmental area, the VTA. It triggers dopamine.

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Speaker 3: So dopamine, we call it. It triggers the seeking drive,

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Speaker 3: looking for food or looking for sex as it happens.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people misunderstand dopamine, don't it because

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think dopamine is the pleasure chemical.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely right, But go directed behavior and motivation, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's to get you to drive to do something.

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Speaker 1: And when you have a tim tom, dopamine's going got

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Speaker 1: another one?

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Speaker 2: Not tasted? Good, get another one.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I hope everybody understands what you just said. That's huge.

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Speaker 3: So what Poll's distinguishing between is the dopamine system and

435
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: the opioid system, Now, there was a study done around

436
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: fifty by Milner and Olds, and it's one of the

437
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: greatest of all studies of the twentieth century. And what

438
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 3: they did was they gave rats a dopamine pump, and

439
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 3: so the rats could just press the liver and get

440
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: another shot at dopamine. And then right beside it they

441
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 3: put food. So the rats they just they wanted, you know,

442
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: give me another shot at dopamine, another shot of dopamine,

443
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: in fact, to the point where they would kill themselves,

444
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: starved to death, even though the food was right beside it.

445
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: So that just to keep on getting that buzz that

446
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: you get from dopamine. That that's we call it psychic energy. Now,

447
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: this is a very important point for parents today because

448
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: our kids are exposed to what's called the hook model,

449
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 3: which is a way of triggering dopamine. And so what

450
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: we find is that kids will let's say, spend ten

451
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: hours playing some god awful video game where the what's

452
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: driving them is the game is a masterpiece, and how

453
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 3: to how to give them that shot of dopamine. Yes,

454
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: ubsolutely trigger, but then they're ignoring all of their all

455
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: of their physiological needs, their need to sleep, their need

456
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: to eat.

457
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: Okay.

458
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: Can I tell you one last discovery? I mean we

459
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: can Okay. So that's a real cool one. Right. So,

460
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: now we've got the mid ring controlling seeking controlling dopamine.

461
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: In nineteen twenty nineteen, they discovered there is a special

462
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: kind of dopamine neuron. It's it's in the dorsal raef nucleus,

463
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: also in the dr also in the mid brank. And

464
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: this dopamine neuron its function is to drive you back

465
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: into social relationships, not to be alone. It's called social homeostasis.

466
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: Wow. Cool. And the reason really cool.

467
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: It's really cool. And the reason is that that as

468
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: a as a mam million species, you're not going to

469
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: survive on your own not very well. Yeah no, so

470
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: you got to get back. So we have a special

471
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: neuron driving us. And what happens is when the when

472
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: the opioid levels drop, so again another homeostatic system. We've

473
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: got opioids flowing deb endorphins flowing through the bloodstream towing

474
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: through the brain. When they drop, it produces a unique feeling,

475
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: a unique aversive feeling. So a couple of minutes ago,

476
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: Paul was talking about the feelings of CO two accumulm.

477
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: We have a different feeling when we have too much isolation,

478
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: and that feeling is what we call.

479
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: Loneliness, longing and loneliness, right and.

480
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: Bringing and loneliness. And so what they are finding now

481
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: we're putting two and two together, is that So you've

482
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: got this kid who is really overstressed, and to deal

483
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: with the kids. To deal with his stress, what the

484
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: kid does is he starts playing Call of Duty or

485
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: whatever over and over. The games make no sense. The

486
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 3: games are absurd, but from a neurobiological point of view,

487
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: they make total sense. You're getting your shot at dopamine.

488
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: The number one complaint of these kids who get addicted

489
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 3: is they feel lonely, interesting, interesting, And the reason is

490
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: because they're social. Dopamine neurons are firing, driving them back

491
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: into social relationships. The Internet does not give it. And

492
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: the reason it doesn't give it is, you know, I

493
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 3: like looking at you. You got a nice face. You're

494
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: not nobody say that, he and my mom. But what

495
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: I really need from you if I'm going to bring

496
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: down my own stress, is I need tactile stimulation. I

497
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: need because we have receptors, yeah, that release that release

498
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: opioids and I.

499
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Tell you who knows this very well, shopping clothing, shopping

500
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: assistance right when you try and jack it on or

501
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: they just get that little light touch and there's a

502
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: certain speed that releases all of this neuro chemistry that

503
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: increases trust in your life that.

504
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: No, you're really good at this. That's exactly right, and

505
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: that's what we're trying to do. You ask the question

506
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: right at the beginning about how neuroscience what's happened is

507
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: changing our views of behavior, and you just gave it

508
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: a great example. So we've got all these businesses now

509
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: mostly coming from the US.

510
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: That are.

511
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: Triggering dopamine. They figured out how to get that dopamine

512
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: release in what we eat of everything, yep. And so

513
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: you've got a generation now where they're showing us all

514
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: of the signs of hyperdopaminergic activities. So we're getting anxiety

515
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 3: breaking out, we're getting loneliness and so on and so on.

516
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 3: So the key in all this is that, Okay, we

517
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: now understand that somehow this lower part of the brain,

518
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: this homeostatic part of the brain, sets the stage for

519
00:33:53,040 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: problems or doing great. What causes homeostatic imbalance? That's the key.

520
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: If there's homeostatic imbalance at the bottom of the brain,

521
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: it goes up the neuroacxis, it goes up the Olympic

522
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 3: system all the way up to the prefrontal cortex. So

523
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 3: that's our question. Our question is what causes systems to

524
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: get out of whack? What causes you know, the thurs,

525
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: the hunger, and the answer is always the same, excessive stress.

526
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: Critically, then talk about how we can all self regulate

527
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: to improve our lives.

528
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 3: What causes homeostatic imbalance, that's the key. If there's homeostatic

529
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: imbalance at the bottom of the brain, it goes up

530
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: the neuroaxis, it goes up the Olympic system all the

531
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 3: way up to the prefrontal cortex. So that's our question.

532
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: Our question is what causes systems to get out of whack?

533
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 3: What causes you know, the thurs, the hunger, And the

534
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 3: answer is always the same, excessive stress. Stress, excessive stress.

535
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: So we need stress, we're bathed in stress. We have

536
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: a wonderful This is again a very recent discovery we

537
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: now know. I don't know if this is too much, but.

538
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm loving it.

539
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: I'm loving it, and I'm sure our listeners are loving,

540
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: it's fascinating stuff.

541
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 3: Okay. Deep in the mid brain, there's another little system,

542
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 3: it's hugely important, called the pery aqueductal gray PhD. So

543
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 3: it has neurons that are triggered by stress. So the definition,

544
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: the scientific definition of stress is anything that requires us

545
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: to burn energy to maintain homeostasis. Okay, that's all it is.

546
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: So everything is a stress in that sense.

547
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: Stress, hold, stress, hunger, stress, solid.

548
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: Okay, everybody understand what Paul just said. I hope so okay,

549
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: So all of these stimuli are stresses, and they're causing

550
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: our brain to burn energy. So how come we don't

551
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: burn out? How come we don't go into that overstress

552
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 3: state called alostatic load. The answer is that in the

553
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: in the peg, in the perioqueductal gray. On the one hand,

554
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 3: you've got these you've got neurons that release CRF, and

555
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: you also have neurons that release beta inendorphins.

556
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: Okay, yep.

557
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 3: Beta endorphins turn off they they turn off the stress response.

558
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: That the feed back lip is it because when we

559
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: get cortisol, c RF ends up with cortisole and the

560
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: bloodstream and that.

561
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: Stimulate feetbacklip right, exactly right, So we don't get this

562
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: runaway up of stress.

563
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: Okay, So then so if you think about what Paul

564
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: just so, Now, what happens if there's excessive stress. If

565
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 3: there's excessive stress, the opioid system can't keep up, we

566
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: can't turn off, we can't counter the CRF or the

567
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: or the ACTCH or the or the cortisol. And then

568
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: what happens is you start getting all the wear and

569
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 3: tear of over stress. You get what Cellier called general

570
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 3: adaptation syndrome. You get physiological problems, you get psychological problems.

571
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: So here's the million dollar point. Okay, this is all

572
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 3: really interesting. So we know that we know that you

573
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 3: need to you need to try to maintain balance homeo

574
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: state static balance in the mid ring. Yeah, why why

575
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: is that such a big deal? Why not just say, Okay,

576
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: you know, I've got these impulses coming from my mid

577
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 3: brain and all they gotta do is I got to

578
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: inhibit them the way Paul did with the CO two

579
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: build up. And the problem is that when you get

580
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 3: homeostatic imbalance at this deep level of the brain, it

581
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 3: turns off self awareness, it turns off the vmPFC.

582
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: Right, vent tomato prefront the cortex exactly.

583
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 3: And that's you know, that looks like an obvious survival mechanism.

584
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 3: When we were in periods of over stress. The brain

585
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 3: blocks the aversive sensations coming up from the mid brain. Right,

586
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: So here's a really okay, so this is complicated. Let's

587
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: let me give you an interesting example of this. We

588
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 3: have a wonderful system to prevent us from over ea. Okay,

589
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 3: so we produce when our energy drops, the brain produces

590
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 3: a neural hormone called graylan. And then when we've eaten enough,

591
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: we've got enough energy, it produces leptin. That turned it

592
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 3: off if you override the left, and it produces unpleasant sensations.

593
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: So just think about how you feel on Christmas dinner, right,

594
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: so you feel bloated. You know, all these are all

595
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: the aversive sensations that These are all the aversive sensations

596
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: that get us to stop eating, just like the aversive

597
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: sensation that get us to breathe. Okay, but the PEG

598
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 3: turns off to the NPFC, right, so we don't. Actually,

599
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: it's not that we are choosing to over ride these sensations.

600
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: The sensations are blocked.

601
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: Interesting, and that's why they can run away, is it?

602
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly right?

603
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: Right.

604
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: So, and so now you've got you know, you've got

605
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: a whole industry designed to trigger overeating, designed to trigger

606
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 3: the individuals in excessive stress. They are not aware of

607
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: the signals that the leptin is sending telling them to

608
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 3: stop eating. They don't process it, they don't feel it.

609
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 3: So the problem with overeating or obesity or whatever is

610
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: not a lack of willpower. It is not a self

611
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 3: control issue. And so instead we say it's a self

612
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: regulation issue in Canon's sense. So what we have to

613
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 3: do is we have to learn how to regulate our

614
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: stress so that we don't go into that over stress state,

615
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: so that we don't begin to do things that are

616
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 3: harmful for our health or mental health and so on.

617
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: I haven't explained that very well, but do you get it?

618
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

619
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: And look, you've just you've opened the window on my

620
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: next question. You've sort of started to answer. So what

621
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: is the difference between self regulation and self control?

622
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: Okay, so self regulation? So I mentioned that we have

623
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: these and forty seven different definitions, but we only use one.

624
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: We use the original one, So we use cannons and that,

625
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: and all it meant was how you manage stress.

626
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: So self regulation just about stress, just about stress.

627
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 3: And so there are five domains of stress that we

628
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: look at and I won't go into them now, but

629
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: there are. We did a stress analysis, so we had

630
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 3: six hundreds, so we broke down, we did factor analysis,

631
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 3: and we got five domains biological, emotional, cognitive, social, and

632
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 3: pro social. So self regulation begins with self regulating mechanisms

633
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 3: that the brain has. But in times of excessive stress,

634
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 3: such as I'm going to spare you this, don't bother

635
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 3: reading your newspapers this morning. Nothing good is going to

636
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 3: come from that. Okay, so this is but this is

637
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 3: a very stressful time for the world. And so when

638
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: stress is excessive, and the stress could be in that

639
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 3: case social or emotional, or it could be biological, the

640
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: stress of crowds, the stress of poor sleep, or stress

641
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 3: of not exercising, you know, on and on and on.

642
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 3: Where it gets trickies when we get into cognitives stress

643
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 3: and I can't do that today.

644
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: That's that's a that's a that's another podcast.

645
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, the podcast. So what happens then is what we

646
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: have to learn is to recognize the signs of what

647
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: let's just stick with kids. Now, what are the signs

648
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 3: of when a kid or a teen is overstressed. They're

649
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: in homeostatic in balance.

650
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: Uh.

651
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: And that's essentially what you're learning in your apply in

652
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 3: your PhD and applied psych. So we get lots and

653
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: lots of signals the kids telling us through their skin complexion,

654
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: through their movement, through their eye gaze, through their My

655
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: favorite example is tone of voice. When a child or

656
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 3: when a teen is in stress overload, their voice changes,

657
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: the pitch goes up, they speak more quickly, they speak,

658
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 3: they more fragmented, and so on. We are given lots

659
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: of use for when a kid is in stress overlooking. Now,

660
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 3: for us, what we learned in our clinic was that

661
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 3: we had to distinguish between misbehavior and stress behavior. Misbehaviors

662
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: coming from the from the prefrontal, it's coming from the

663
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: new Stress behavior is coming from the living system. Okay,

664
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 3: when it's stress behavior, the kids not really aware of

665
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 3: what they're saying or do. These are what they say

666
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 3: or what they do is caused by systems deep within

667
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: the brain, such impulse simpulse. If we punish those impulses,

668
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: what we're doing is we are dramatically adding to the

669
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: stress the kids already.

670
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: Under That's an interesting concept, right, yeah, very very interesting

671
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: because often we do it right, we punish those impulses.

672
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 3: We punish the impulses.

673
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: So what impact does that have on the kid.

674
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 3: It's all bad. So what it's done is the kid

675
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: will repress. I mean, what we're trying to do is

676
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: get the kid to repress the impulses. But what that

677
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 3: we need that kid or team to learn is why

678
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: they had the impulses. Where the impulsors are coming from.

679
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: The impulses are coming from the fact that they're overstressed.

680
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 3: So what we need to teach them is to recognize

681
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: when they are over stressed. Now we have you know,

682
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: our method is called self rank and it's really it's

683
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: really these steps. The first step is reframe the kid's behavior.

684
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 3: Is it misbehavior? Is stress behavior? The second one figure

685
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 3: out what the stresses are. Look, it's always more than one.

686
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 3: The third one is reduced to stresses. But let me

687
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: just mention the fourth, which is big. The fourth is

688
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 3: because I know what your wife does. I was reading

689
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: about that and I was fascinated by it. Okay, The

690
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: fourth is get the kids to calm. Yeah, and what

691
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: we're seeing is a generation that do not know what

692
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 3: calmness is.

693
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: Interesting.

694
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 3: Yeah so they so, you know, when we think of calmness,

695
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 3: and this is the work she does. You know, this

696
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: feeling of a mind at rest, a mind at peace

697
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 3: extending through your body. They never have this. What they

698
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 3: have is when they start to get tired, they reach

699
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 3: for that shot of dopamine. Yeah, okay, not what they

700
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 3: need to do is one of the calming you know,

701
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 3: there are many ways to calm yourself, listening to music,

702
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: going for a walk, going for a run. And what

703
00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 3: we're after here is we're really after step five, which

704
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 3: is called restoration. Restoration is a biological state, so it

705
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 3: refers to what the parasympathetic system does, the restorative functions

706
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 3: of the parasympathetic system, and that is, you know, you've

707
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: got to refill the energy. You've got to repair all

708
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 3: the cells that have been damage. You've got to boost

709
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 3: the immune system, you've got to have cellular growth, the

710
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 3: demands of metabolism. So all those are physiological aspects of restoration.

711
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: And Stuart, just for the listeners, you mentioned the parasympathetic

712
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: nervous system. Yeah, so just for the listeners, the autonomic

713
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: nervous system that you talked about two branches sympathetic, parasympathetic,

714
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: and just to simplify things, for people's sympathetic nervous system,

715
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 1: fight or flight, parasympathetic, rest and digest.

716
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: Right, So two sides of the seasong.

717
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 3: I like rest and digest. So with that sympathetic side

718
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 3: that Paul's talking about, that's what's happening when the kid

719
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: keeps on putting his fit his thumb on the dopenbeam button.

720
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 3: So they're keeping that sympathetic system hyper arouse. They're keeping Yeah,

721
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 3: it's a hyper arrest, and so we need to balance

722
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 3: off that other branch of the of the autonomic nervous system,

723
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: the parasympathetic. But restoration also refers to restoring restoring social relationships.

724
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 3: So we're primarily interested in your relationship with mom and

725
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 3: dad and your friends, and then finally restoring your your values,

726
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 3: your sense of you know, right and wrong goodness. And

727
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: when you look at the US today, you can see

728
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: that this is a society in which a very large

729
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 3: number are in alistatic overload, overstressed.

730
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: And so what's and and and to that alistatic overload? Yes,

731
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: and can we just talk through some of the implications

732
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: of that alastatic overload, like what it does in the

733
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: body and the breed.

734
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 2: And I can maybe chime in with a few things.

735
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: Okay, So so this is uh, this is an idea

736
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 3: that Bruce McLean. H.

737
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a conversation with him. I mean, he's

738
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: along with Walter Cannon and Hans Selly for me, they

739
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: are they are the godfathers of stress.

740
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: Right.

741
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 3: Couldn't agree more? Couldn't agree more? I love Bruce. Uh.

742
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 3: So we go back to a book he wrote, I

743
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 3: can't remember the day. It's in the eighties. It's called

744
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 3: the Hostage Brain and uh. And so what he came

745
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 3: up with was an explanation of something that Celia had

746
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: been talking about. So we know that over stress, what

747
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 3: it does, this homeostatic imbalance, is it starts to wear down, uh,

748
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: the bodies organs. The bodies aren't repairing properly. Things get

749
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 3: out of whack. Homeostasis is out of whack.

750
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 2: And uh.

751
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 3: The whole point of alostasis is that it's a it's

752
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 3: a moving target. So not only are we getting are

753
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 3: we getting physical uh degeneration, which can turn up in

754
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 3: heart problems, which can turn up and digest and you know,

755
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: ulcers and so on. But we're also seeing the psychological side,

756
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 3: So we're seeing we're seeing depression, anxiety disorders. And Salia

757
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 3: was the first to tie these two together. Now what

758
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: we're what we're seeing? You know, you asked me, you know, like,

759
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 3: how does this relate to what we're seeing in the US.

760
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 3: When an individual goes into alla state alistatic overload. One

761
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 3: of the one of the consequences is it shuts down awareness,

762
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 3: It shuts down your ability to think through to it

763
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: shuts down your risk reward system, and you are vulnerable

764
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 3: to highly arousing messages. So so I'll give you a

765
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 3: really great example. One of the things that the Trump

766
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 3: rallies did. And we knew it at the time we

767
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: were writing about it. It was all set up. So

768
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 3: the first thing you've got to do is you've got

769
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 3: to send the crowd into hyper aroused. By the way,

770
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 3: did you know that the Trump team they had a

771
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: group of psychologists.

772
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, because you can say you can see it

773
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: in the rallies, right.

774
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 3: Yea, all careful, all carefully done, And they were studying

775
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: the hook model, and so you get them hyper I

776
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 3: bet you. I studied Hitler as well, Well, we know,

777
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 3: I guess you know this. But in her first autobiography,

778
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 3: The First Wife what was her name, Evanna Havanna Trump

779
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 3: wrote how Trump kept a copy of Hitler's speeches in

780
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 3: his bedside table.

781
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know.

782
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: You didn't know that. And then she was forced so

783
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 3: he he had you know, one of his NDA's and

784
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 3: she was forced to reproduce the book and cut that

785
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 3: passage out. Wow. Yeah, there you go.

786
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: Not cool, so unbelievable.

787
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 3: So you send them into hyper arousal, right, and then

788
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 3: what they did was they they had shills actors that

789
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: were spread throughout the crowd, and everybody's hyper arousal. And

790
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 3: these these actors start shouting, you know, billbab Wall, Yeah.

791
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: Knock her up, Bill the Wall, locking her up.

792
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. And so what happens is, before you know it,

793
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: your blue brain has been hijacked.

794
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: And more than neurobiology of a cult, right.

795
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 3: This is a neurobiology difficult well said, wow. And so

796
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: what we're seeing today is people that you know, I mean,

797
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 3: they're caught in red brain. The stress levels are unbelievably high,

798
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 3: and literally talking about kill the Dems. I kill the

799
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 3: Democrats kill the libs. So you know what's the solution?

800
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 3: You know, I think about Australia and in my mind,

801
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: the thing that always comes to my mind in Australia

802
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: is everybody's outside. Everybody they're walking, they're running, there at

803
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: the beach, they're having picnics, barbecues. It's a very fit society.

804
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 3: It's a very active society. And you don't see this craziness,

805
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: you really don't. You get a little burst of it,

806
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 3: but it's nothing. Yeah, you have to be in the US,

807
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 3: just land in the US, and you can feel the stress.

808
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 3: You can feel attention, attention y yep. And so you know,

809
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 3: I mean, how do we you know, how do we

810
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 3: resolve this? Not through self control, but we're going to

811
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 3: do it through self regulation. We need to soothe, we

812
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 3: need to just like we do with a kid.

813
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talk, you talk about adaptive and maladaptive

814
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: self regulation, right, can can we jump into that a

815
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: little bit?

816
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's a big one. So one of the

817
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 3: things that let me give you an example. My clinic

818
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: was primarily in autism and EGHD clinic. So little guys

819
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 3: on the spectrum find uh, you know, they have sensory

820
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 3: sensitivities that make certain experiences that you and I take

821
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 3: for granted incredibly aversive for them. And that's the term

822
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 3: we now exactly. And so they find the energy coming

823
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 3: off the mother's eyes, for example, they can find that

824
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 3: so strong that it hurts. It's peace.

825
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 2: That's why they.

826
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: Often don't look in the eye, right, it's so overwhelming.

827
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 3: It's overwhelming. So gazer version is a defensive behavior, right,

828
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: But we need to look at mummy's face because we

829
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 3: learn so much in breastfeeding. We are learning language, facial expressions,

830
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 3: and so this is a maladaptive way of dealing with stress.

831
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 3: It reduces the stress in the moment, but it creates

832
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: further stress down the road when they're four or five

833
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 3: and don't have good language or don't have good mind reading. Yeah,

834
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 3: So what we find in today's generation are children and

835
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 3: teens that have developed all kinds of maladaptive ways of

836
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 3: dealing with stress. So, uh, you know, we've done an example.

837
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 3: The kid is very stress, is very stress by something

838
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 3: that happened at school or whatever, and so they lock

839
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 3: themselves up in their room and and you know, spend

840
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 3: six eight hours on social media or playing game with it. Yeah,

841
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 3: but nature designed us that the primary way for dealing

842
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 3: with stress is with your parent. Okay, okay, So it's

843
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: that interbrate. Now we know that with.

844
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 1: The can I sorry to interrupt here because I meant

845
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: to ask it earlier on that Interbrian connection, because.

846
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: Every dad was listening to this God? What about may? Right?

847
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: Is there an interbrilling connection between dad and child or

848
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: is it just mom?

849
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: It is dad and job? Oh good and job. And

850
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 3: not only is it between dad and child, but we

851
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 3: have those interring connections our whole life. In fact, we

852
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 3: find when we're working with the elderly that the greatest

853
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 3: prediction predictor of medical problems is if they're alone. If

854
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 3: we can restore an interbrain in their life, their medical

855
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 3: problems declined dramatically.

856
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: So we can have an integrain connection is really just

857
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: an emotional connection with another Olympic to Olympic, Olympic.

858
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 3: To Olympic, and it's operating with anyone we meet below

859
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 3: the surface of awareness, so it's automatic. It's before we

860
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 3: say anything.

861
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: Right.

862
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 3: So the very first reaction I have when I saw

863
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 3: you today, when you came on, was this is a

864
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 3: nice man. Okay, but I was surprised because i'd read

865
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 3: your bio and I'm not sure what I was expecting.

866
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 3: I think I was expecting some sort of warrior. Ah,

867
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: but you've got to really you have a very nice

868
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 3: you have a very nice smile, nice laugh, and I

869
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 3: had processed all that before you said a word.

870
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: Do you know that's really interesting the it reminds me

871
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: of the study that they did with university students where

872
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: they showed.

873
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: Them a video right of their.

874
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: Future professor and teaching and it was about thirty seconds,

875
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: and they asked them to rate them, and then they

876
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: asked them at the end of the year again to

877
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: rate them, and it was almost the same. And then

878
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: they even got it down to seven seconds of the

879
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: person with no voice right, just seeing them talk and teach,

880
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: and they asked them to rate them, and then they

881
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: rate them again at the end of the year, and

882
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: it's almost identical.

883
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 2: So it's that future judgment. Eh.

884
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that Olympic assessment. Can you can you

885
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 3: get somebody to send me just the prince for that.

886
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,479
Speaker 3: That's a fabulous yeah, yeah, I'll dig that out. Yeah,

887
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 3: that's exactly right. Okay, So, and so what's happening now

888
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 3: is we have a generation. I said that that doesn't

889
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: know what calmness is.

890
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: And this is because because we're just being hyper ararged

891
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:24,959
Speaker 1: as kids.

892
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:26,959
Speaker 2: I mean, I think about our kids.

893
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: I got a sixteen and eleven year old, and when

894
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: they say I'm bored, I'm.

895
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 2: Like, that's awesome.

896
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: That is awesome that you're bored, because your brain will

897
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: come up with some creative stuff.

898
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, you're not getting on your screen.

899
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 3: Oh you do that?

900
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: Eh?

901
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that's awesome because there's just

902
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: so much gimulatory input for kids these days that we

903
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: didn't have.

904
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: When we were growing up.

905
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: Right, Nope, And my guys noticed that, you know, if

906
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: he's on a video game for a long period of time,

907
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: which is quite rare, changes Yep, it's absolutely changes. So

908
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: what what what is happening here? Is this just is

909
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: just an over arousal.

910
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 3: It's a limbic hyper arousal. And there was a fabulous

911
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 3: study that was done in Sweden. So what they looked

912
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 3: at was kids had to turn off there, they were

913
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 3: allowed to play a violent video game and turn off

914
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 3: the computer at ten o'clock ten pm. And so then

915
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 3: what they were interested in was when does they amid

916
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 3: the law in the which is the fear center, When

917
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 3: does it calm down? And the answer was, and so

918
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 3: they were. They were imaging them doing the dansery eeg.

919
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 3: And it took forty six hours. Yeah, I know, so

920
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 3: so mom and dad, you know, you turn off that machine.

921
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: They haven't suddenly gone into.

922
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: Calm there is, yeah, And I think people need to

923
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 1: pause and reflect on that, right, so they do. They're

924
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: doing these hyper stimulation, whether it's a video game, whether

925
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: it's that incessant scrolling on social media.

926
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 2: That when they stop, it's not stopped in the brand.

927
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: Right, there's still a riseal mechanisms going on for a

928
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: period of extended period of time.

929
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 3: If you can, if you can give people the website

930
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 3: for the Merit Center.

931
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, for sure, for sure.

932
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 3: They can download. They can download something called a Fayre matrix. Okay, okay,

933
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 3: So that was invented by Robert Thayer, American psychologists back

934
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 3: in the nineties. And it's got four quadrants. The bottom

935
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 3: left is low energy low tension. Above that is high

936
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 3: energy low tension. Okay. So the left side of the

937
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 3: matrix it's low tension. The right side top right is

938
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 3: high energy high tension, and the bottom right is low

939
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 3: energy high tension. Now for the work that you're doing

940
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 3: on resilience, what we so we've done our own right,

941
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 3: and what we find is that kids that are not

942
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 3: resilient are stuck in bottom right. Okay, low energy high

943
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 3: What sends a kid? What sends a kid into bottom right?

944
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 3: And the answer is successive stress? Yes, So what are

945
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 3: the stresses? Well, you have to you know, you become

946
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 3: a stress detective. So now what we found is that

947
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:50,919
Speaker 3: resilience is you know, it varies. If you can get

948
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 3: the kid into top left, they become much more resilient. First,

949
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 3: what we want, what we what you discovered in all

950
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 3: your train was how to get into top right and

951
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 3: stay in top right for extended periods of time. Now,

952
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 3: this you'll find really cool. Top right is chick mint

953
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 3: Holly's flow. Yeah, it's flow is top right, and so

954
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 3: we can build this. We can build flow. But to

955
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 3: do that, you have to. Now I'm looking at you

956
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 3: and I can tell right now what you're doing to

957
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: stay regulated. So you're I'm going to guess you're a runner. Yeah,

958
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that you work out pretty much every day.

959
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 3: Watch what you eat. Yeah, I was. I was. I

960
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 3: noticed that we began filming at seven am Melbourne times.

961
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to figure out before you came on

962
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 3: what time you woke up. I'm guessing six at the latest.

963
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 2: Yes, correct.

964
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 3: Okay, So you've done all these things to These are

965
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 3: all adaptive modes of self regular h These are ways

966
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 3: of and I'm sure you know exactly when you've got

967
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: a wife who specialized in this, you start to get

968
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 3: over stress and she's gonna say, sweetheart, you know, let's

969
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 3: bring it down a.

970
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: Bit, and just for I think for it, because we

971
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: talked about kids and maladaption. I think also adults being

972
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: aware that I have an adaptive and maladaptive strategies to stress, right,

973
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: and a mal adaptive one is the one that often

974
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: kicks in after hard days work and your brain comes home.

975
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: Now you come home and your brain goes. I know

976
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 1: how to sort this ship out. Get me a drink

977
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: or get me some food, right, love it, don't bring

978
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: me carrot sticks?

979
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 3: Love it? I love it. So what I do so

980
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 3: personally is I meditate and and so it's just a

981
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 3: reflex in me now that I know that the second

982
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 3: I'm getting when I'm starting to feel over stress, it's

983
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 3: to meditate. So then it becomes a very interesting question

984
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 3: for adults. Can we learn to recognize when we're becoming

985
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 3: over stressed? Yes, we want to interrupt the cycle before

986
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 3: we go into that over stress state where the only

987
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 3: things are going to help me. Now is that double? So?

988
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 3: So we so we learn. So we talked about reframing,

989
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 3: and one of the things you learn as an adult

990
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 3: is to reframe your own impulses. Certain impulses tell me

991
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 3: that I'm becoming overstressed, and I give you a great example.

992
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 3: So one day the director of our institute told me

993
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 3: that she was really feeling overstressed. And you know, she said,

994
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 3: you know, it's just like it's it's too much, you know,

995
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 3: too much CNN. But in fact, in fact what happens

996
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 3: is that urge to check CNN or whatever it is

997
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 3: you're checking in Australia agency that that sudden impulse is

998
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: in fact telling you, oh, I'm a little bit my

999
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 3: energy has come down now, and so now what am

1000
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 3: I going to do to rebalance it? Not going to

1001
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 3: see it n which is actually giving me a shot

1002
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 3: of dopamine, and it's designed to give me news.

1003
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and you look at all of

1004
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: the headlines dramaticness and okay.

1005
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so here's what we all want to know, Paul. Okay,

1006
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 3: so you're so you're starting to feel overstressed? You? Yes,

1007
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 3: what do you do when you feel it? So I

1008
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 3: have I'll get a little thing that I teach to people,

1009
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 3: right called discharge, recharge, reframe. So for me, I just think.

1010
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: About the hormones and what's actually going on, right, So

1011
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: that build the build up of a adrenaline nor adrenaline

1012
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: or a neur language apenephrin nora epenefhyron right.

1013
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 2: And for me, I just think about evolution, right, and I.

1014
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: Love it that fire or flight is there to get

1015
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: you a fighter runaway.

1016
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1017
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: So the discharge bit is I do thirty to sixty

1018
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: seconds of exercise. So if you look right behind here,

1019
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: you can see a kettlebell right sitting right there, and

1020
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: I'll just have breakes and I'll do kettlebell swings, which

1021
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 1: is an awesome exercise. Thirty to sixty seconds discharge that energy.

1022
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 3: I love it.

1023
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:30,439
Speaker 2: Right.

1024
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: Then I recharge by breathing, right, whether it's box breathing

1025
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: or resin frequency breathing for just about a minute so

1026
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: that I have got rid of the energy, brought my

1027
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: brain back to a state where I can now reframe.

1028
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: My cognition is online and now I'm more effective at

1029
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: reframing than I would be a minute ago.

1030
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 3: I am so glad you just explained all that. So

1031
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 3: we started off when you know, we had this neuroscience revolution.

1032
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 3: So what and now this is the answer, So for everybody,

1033
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,439
Speaker 3: for all your viewers, this isn't just a science talk.

1034
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 3: This is about you just got You just got a

1035
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 3: two minute lesson in how to stop this cycle before

1036
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 3: it gets out of control. Everything you just said, I

1037
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 3: think that you're gonna have to come and start working

1038
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 3: with us. That's just that's self ragged. That was self

1039
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 3: rigg That's exactly, and.

1040
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 2: That was my question.

1041
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: So and look, we will find this up at some stage.

1042
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:35,560
Speaker 1: I'm just finding this fascinating. So if you're okay to

1043
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: keep talking, you.

1044
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 3: Actually have to. I do have to go in two minutes.

1045
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 3: I've got I've got a family outside my door.

1046
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,560
Speaker 1: Right So, so apologized to me for today and for

1047
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,679
Speaker 1: me for keeping here for twenty minutes. But I'm loving it.

1048
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 1: So my last question, and what role in your model.

1049
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: And look, we'll put on self self and dash reg

1050
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: dot C. I'll put all the links in and for

1051
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 1: people can go on, look at your awesome work. But

1052
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: what role does exercise play and in kids and adults

1053
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: being able to having a capacity to self regulated?

1054
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 3: Number one?

1055
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 2: Number one? There you go, simple answer, yeah, yeah, And

1056
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 2: I totally agree.

1057
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: And there's a I think a fellow Canadian, Richard and

1058
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:29,799
Speaker 1: I can never pronounce his name, Deemster or Deepster, who

1059
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 1: wrote a book all on toughness, right, and he was

1060
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: maybe thirty years ago, was an academic, and I've got

1061
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: a brilliant researcher research paper from him about catechola means

1062
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: and a bridge from exercise temp to temperament and basically

1063
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: saying that basically what he's been saying has really inspired

1064
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 1: me is that by exercising regularly you train your stress

1065
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,839
Speaker 1: respond system exactly come to become more effective and more efficient.

1066
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: Right And and and for me LinkedIn to that that

1067
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 1: the research showing that special forces soldiers, right, this is

1068
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 1: researched by uh, his name skips me. It will come

1069
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: to it, Dennis Charnick. So that special Forces soldiers they

1070
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 1: have a very very sensitive stress responses. A lot of

1071
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: people think that they don't get stressed. They do bomb.

1072
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: It turns on super quick, just like anxious people when

1073
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: there's a potential threat. The difference between Special Forces guys

1074
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,799
Speaker 1: and anxious people. As soon as Special Forces guys realize

1075
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: it's not a threat, bomb, it extinguishes that stress response system,

1076
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 1: whereas anxious people it's get a lot and on and

1077
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: it stays turned on. So for me, the ability to

1078
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: extinguish the stress response system is key.

1079
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 2: An exercise I think is very st.

1080
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 3: Okay. So we talked about I do not truly work,

1081
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 3: and we talked about the five stages, and the fifth

1082
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 3: stage being restoration, and what we find in the Special

1083
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 3: Forces research, but also and in champion athletes is remarkable

1084
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 3: restoration that they can And I've once read a line

1085
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 3: that I love you and guys said it was like

1086
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 3: flipping a switch. I can flip a switch and instantly restore,

1087
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 3: and and that stayed with me all the time. But

1088
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: we can all learn this, right, we can all learn

1089
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 3: how to flip the switch.

1090
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,560
Speaker 1: And I often say the comperence there is a difference

1091
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: between relaxation and recovery. Right, tauting your feet up and fection.

1092
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 1: Drinking a bottle of wine is not recovering a restaurant.

1093
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah no, that's exactly right. And we talked and we

1094
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 3: tried to explain there's a difference between calm and being quiet. Yes,

1095
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 3: so yeah, no, you're you're you're you're a self rigger.

1096
01:11:55,160 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: But this has been absolutely fascinating. I'm loving I have

1097
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: found it absolutely fascinating and I'm sure our listeners will

1098
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: found it very, very fascinating. So please apologize to your

1099
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: family from me for keeping you li it.

1100
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:09,479
Speaker 2: I've loved it.

1101
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: We're other than is it just self dot rag our

1102
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: self self reg self dash reg.

1103
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 2: We'll put it in the notes.

1104
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: Is that where they go? Or is there other things?

1105
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 1: You've written a number of books as well. Can we

1106
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 1: get them all on there as well?

1107
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 3: There is another We have an international organization now and

1108
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,679
Speaker 3: it's called self rag Global dot com self rag Global

1109
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: and that's no hyphens or anything, just self raag Global.

1110
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 3: That's the one we just did. We just did a

1111
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 3: big program for Australia and that was through SRG selfreag Global.

1112
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 1: Okay, cool awesome stuff, mate, This has been fascinating. I

1113
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 1: definitely want to get you on again at some stage.

1114
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:53,519
Speaker 1: Thank you for giving up your time and go enjoy

1115
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: your family.

1116
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 3: Okay, I love that. Keep it up, paul I, love

1117
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 3: what you're doing.