1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: She trailed actually to the suspects ours. She did go 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: by a trash can. The victim's purse was in the 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: trash can, which corroborated the trail, and then she went 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: to the suspects house where he was being with his 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: parents and did happen to be on parole as a 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: violent sex offender. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: The dog took you straight to the perpetrator and the 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: police went through the door and arrested him. I'm Andrew 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: Rule Business Life and Crimes. Today we have a very 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: special guest on Life and Crimes Doctor to use her 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 2: real title Kobe Webb and Doctor Kobe Webb is in Bend, Oregon, 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: just north of California, where she has spent most of 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 2: her working life. Doctor Webb, alias Captain Webb, was a 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: senior police officer in the Riverside County Sheriff's Department for 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: more than twenty five years. She retired fairly recently, but 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: she made her name in police work in various ways, 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: but mostly as a trainer and handler of specialist sent dogs, 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: dogs that can trail people or in fact trail anything 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: I think, And although she nowadays trains many other dogs 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: for other purposes. For many years she made her name 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: in California by training bloodhounds to do wonderful things like 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: find lost children, lost old people who might have dementia, 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 2: and also to trail fugitives and criminals. Welcome to life 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: and Crimes, Kobe. We're going to call you Kobe rather 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: than doctor Webb because we're fairly casual. Here. How's things 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: in Bend, Oregon. 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: It's wonderful. It's a great place to retire. From California. 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: It's a light slower peace. 29 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: Tell me, is that where you grew up? You came 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: from Oregon originally? 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: Yes, I was born in Oregon and grew up in Oregon, 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: and then I went down to southern California with my 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: mom right and in high school and after graduating, I 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: went into college there at the local community college before 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: continuing my education, but I went into law enforcement. 36 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: I see. And you formed an attachment to dogs and 37 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: learned about training dogs quite early in life. Is that right? 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: From preps? Your grandfather? 39 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: My family, My grandfather worked dogs. My dad also had dogs. 40 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: We've always and my mom we've always had dogs. 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: Right, So you grew up with dogs. And in the 42 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: United States, quite a lot of people associated with hunting 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: have variations on hound dogs, variations of the bloodhound breed, 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: and you were familiar with those and with field labradors 45 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: and others when you were young. Is that right? 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, not the bloodhounds until later, yep. But I'm not 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: in favor of only the bloodhound. I'm in favor of 48 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: dogs with the drive. 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: Two hunts, that's the big thing. They're working instinct. Now, Kobe, 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: you didn't join the Riverside Sheriff's Department immediately. You actually 51 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: joined a local police force first, did you not. 52 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I joined with Palm Springs Police Department first, and 53 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: then I went to Riverside County Sheriff's Department, a larger 54 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: department with the ultimate goal of always being a canine hamber. 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: I see. And how soon before you got to use 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: dogs in your job as a deputy sheriff. Is that 57 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: what your title was then? 58 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: Yes, So as a deputy first you have to know 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: that job, that position, and then when you want a 60 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: special team, then you tested, then you're selected, and then 61 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: it usually takes about five years before you go to 62 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: a special team. 63 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: And the early days, what sort of dogs were you 64 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: handling at Riverside. 65 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: County At Riverside County I started the bloodhound program. However, 66 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: I was a patrol dog handler. I worked malawized shepherds. 67 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: I had four patrol docs out the department, and then 68 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: also I started the department's bloodhound program, right. 69 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: And is it true to say that before your intervention 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: or your innovation, that bloodhounds had not been used in 71 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: California as much as they had in the Eastern States? 72 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 2: And is it true that you went to the East 73 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: and learned from older police who had used bloodhounds in 74 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 2: the past in order to bring that knowledge back to California. 75 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: There were bloodhounds in California. Hammler's had owned the dogs. 76 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: Were trying to start up programs and trying to get 77 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: their agent Seeds to be a full time position. I 78 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: had the permission with my agency, which was great for 79 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: Innovation to be supportive of me when I brought the 80 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: proposal of adding a bloodhound due to all the missing 81 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: people we were having in the desert area, which is 82 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: a tourist area, Palm Desert, and that's where I proposed 83 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: the bloodhound, which was sent specific to follow that one 84 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: person sent to help our agency kind of lower some 85 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: of the time we were searching for missing people especially 86 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: with dementia. And once I had that approval, I had 87 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: to learn go find out about the bloodhounds, where to 88 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: get a bloodhound, a working line, and then I have 89 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: the support once I got it trained, and I did 90 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: go back east. I went to Colorado and also back years. 91 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: And when I did that and brought back the dog 92 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: with the foundation, the department said, prove that it's reliable 93 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: in our set and needed and they gave me the calls, 94 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: which was wonderful to show that the dog can meet 95 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: those criterias and we were successful on that where now 96 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: we had a full sorely full time bloodhound units. 97 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: Right, So tell us about that early time you had 98 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: some success. I take it with finding old people who 99 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: were lost and possibly children who were lost. And along 100 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: the way, of course, your dogs were getting or your 101 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: hounds were getting the sort of skills they needed to 102 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: follow anybody that you set them after sent and therefore 103 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: they could be used to find fugitives. I think one 104 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: of your early dogs, perhaps not quite your first one, 105 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: but perhaps one of your more famous hounds was a 106 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: bloodhoum bitch called Meggie Might. 107 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: That's correct. So even at the early stages, I did 108 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: track criminals also, yep, it would not be like homicide suspects, 109 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: but it was burglars, not as high profile crimes, just 110 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: to be able to show that the dog was an 111 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: asset and that it was reliable. And so we did 112 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: do missing people and criminal trucks at the beginning. And 113 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: then yes, Maggie was the one, the first bloodhoun I started. 114 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: She had an accident and passed away early, and I 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: had Maggie in training, and Maggie was the one that 116 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: really stepped up, and I was able to prove the 117 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: need for the dogs, especially saving time in resources with 118 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: direction to travel, and then we'd be able to locate 119 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: missing persons or suspects. But it was just a tool. 120 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: She's not the one thing that solves prime solely. It's 121 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: a tool. 122 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: True, I think Maggie made, from what I've read, was 123 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: instrumental in tracking in a fairly wonderful way a six killer. 124 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: Early in those days, I think two and one or 125 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, a fellow called Jackson, Is that true? 126 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: What was that story? 127 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: On that particular case? I was called upon. It was 128 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: a subject that was accused of attacking elderly women and violently, 129 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: and I was called upon to see if I could 130 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: track him after he just committed another event, and they 131 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: just wanted to know the direction of travel of him 132 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: coming in and out of this neighborhood so that we 133 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: could do a surveillance and get more investigative leads. And 134 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: Maggie ended up trailing on that case. As she trailed 135 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: actually to the suspect's house, she did go buy a 136 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: trash can. The victim's purse was in the trash can, 137 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: which corroborated the trail, and then she went to the 138 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: suspect's house where he was getting with his parents and 139 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: did happen to be on parole as a violent sex offender. 140 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: And the whole case opened up when we didn't even 141 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: expect it to either. We truly thought we were just 142 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: going to get how he's entering the neighborhood in exiting. 143 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: But the dog, in its wisdom or its noos, you better, 144 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: took you straight to the perpetrata and the police went 145 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: through the door and arrested him and away he went 146 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: to jail. 147 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: Eventually, well there was evidence there he didn't have time 148 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: to destroy. The last thing I think kind of expected 149 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: was the dog to be showing up early in the 150 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: morning and I think the big thing with the tracking dogs, 151 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: we had no information where who our suspect was, where 152 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: he was staying. Like I said, we were just trying 153 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: to figure out how he entered the neighborhood and then 154 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: we're out of house, which kind of surprised even us. 155 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: And that really kind of blew up the whole case 156 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: in a sense, and a good way of having that 157 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: evidence inside not destroyed and being able to go to trial. 158 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, this offender, Jackson, he'd murdered one 159 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: old lady and had riped at least one other. That's true, 160 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 2: isn't it. 161 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: That's what he was accused of. 162 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And I have. 163 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: Not the investigator. I was solely only the dog handler, 164 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: which makes it unbiased. I just deployed the dog and 165 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: work the dog and do not always know all the 166 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: facts of the case because I don't want to be 167 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: biased in the deployment of the dog. 168 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, I think your success or Maggie May's success 169 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: in that case meant that the FBI reached out to you, 170 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: I think the following year, within a matter of months, 171 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: because they had a very serious I think a kidnapping 172 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 2: and they needed some help and they reached out to 173 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: you and Maggie mate your dog, Maggie, I think you 174 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: gave her the scent of the suspected perpetrator offender. Is 175 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: that right? 176 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: We trailed from the house where the victim was kidnapped 177 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: by the suspect. It was the victim's house, and we 178 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: had a scent article of a potential suspect who I 179 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: didn't know. They gave me the sen item and they said, 180 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: we want to know if there's a trail from the 181 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: house with this sen item, and that's where the dog 182 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: did take a track and did go to the location 183 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: of a cabin, and that's where we entered the cabin 184 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: under exigent circumstances, thinking the victim might possibly still be alive. Ye, 185 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 1: and found evidence there in the cabin, such as there 186 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: was duct tape, There was numerous other items in the cabin, 187 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: and we gave Maggie break. We shut her down. A 188 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: little bit later, we started her back up on the 189 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: victim scent. 190 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: You switched scents, yep, Yes. 191 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: We changed scents and we gave her the victim scent 192 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: in that area, and that's where she tracked down a 193 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: hill and gave a proximity alert in that area, there 194 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: was snow. We did not see our victim anywhere, and 195 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: that's when FBI was later called and their dog did 196 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: find the grave right underneath the snowpack, and that the 197 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: deceased victim was inside there and identified. 198 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: An astonishing tile of a tile of two dogs, two hounds. 199 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: But Maggie May was certainly one of your better bloodhounds, 200 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: but not the only one. You handled several and you 201 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: trained many more, I believe, and then you showed other 202 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 2: people how to train bloodhounds to do do this important 203 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: work and other important work. Well, can you recall some 204 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: of the cases that stick in your memory and some 205 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 2: of the jobs you have helped with, both in California 206 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: and elsewhere. I think you went overseas at one time. 207 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I have started up programs and other agencies. As 208 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:28,479 Speaker 1: for Maggie Alan, yes, she was wonderful. She worked other kidnapping. 209 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: She also worked Samantha running kidnapping, which is very dear 210 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: to my heart because it was a very difficult trail. 211 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: And she did help with direction of travel and where 212 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: we were able to gather more evidence, just for providing 213 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: that was significant. Where I'm still in contact with the 214 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: mother of Samantha that was kidnapped and murder things like that, 215 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: so you definitely get that relationship. And then yes, I 216 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: have traveled internationally working bloodhounds. However, I still have to 217 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: say it's not the breed. I have to always reinforce 218 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: that it's since specific. It's really the driver of the dog, 219 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: and that the dogs hunt skill to want to be 220 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: able to track and understand since specific. So I just 221 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: happened to be known for the bloodhounds. I was successful 222 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: with the bloodhounds, and now that's where I still train them. 223 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: But I do work with all breeds. 224 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: And within every breed, tell me if this is right. 225 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: With every breed, you will find individuals that are good 226 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: at certain tasks and many other individuals that are not. 227 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: And I think anybody that breeds sheep dogs or race 228 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: horses or anything else will agree with that proposition. Do 229 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,479 Speaker 2: you find that in your experience you've found certain bloodlines 230 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: of bloodhounds and other breeds that are particularly good because 231 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: they are well focused on the job, they want to work, 232 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: they want to please the handler, and perhaps there are 233 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: other bloodlines that are not as successful as those ones. 234 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: Yes, I do have working line breeders that I do 235 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: work with when I'm looking for the dogs, do do 236 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: their past success and the success of the prior letter 237 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: meads that I watch and that I get to. Now 238 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: I do favor them because the genetics I kind of 239 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: know what I'm dealing with, so I do have that 240 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: that I do prefer. 241 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: Hypothetically, if someone from overseas, from Australia or New Zealand, 242 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: or Switzerland or Greenland came to you and said, we 243 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: really like what you're doing, we need to get track 244 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: of dogs to do exactly what you do with them 245 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: in the States, you could point to two or three 246 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: breeders in the States with genetics that would be superior. 247 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: Well, it's just been more of success rate. That's really 248 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: what I look at is that the dog success where 249 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: the dog's been deployed, the other dogs related and that success. 250 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: So we actually almost fight behind the list for the 251 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: dog to be pick of the litter. And yes, that 252 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: is what I do. Still to this day. I get 253 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: very picky. I want I want to be the number 254 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: one to pick the best pub that I believe with 255 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: what I'm seeing to be that working dog. So yes, 256 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: I did work with New York State Place, Maryland State Place, 257 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: many years of using the since specific filling dogs. They 258 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: do both use the bloodhounds, and I did follow their models. 259 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: We'll put a hypothetical to you. The LAPD. We've all 260 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: heard of it. It's a famous police force, Los Angeles 261 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: Police Department. It now has its own unit or track 262 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: a dog unit, and I think you might have helped 263 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: set that up. Is that right? 264 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I did help them start their program, help them 265 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: start with their breeders. They did the same methods as 266 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: I do, and they've been very, very successful. I actually 267 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: feel more like Grandma now when I get to watch 268 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: all these dogs and handlers doing excellent work with their 269 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: dogs and finding individuals. I do like when they find 270 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: the missing. That's my favorite. And then also I do 271 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: like the suspects being captured because a lot of times 272 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: it's closure for families. 273 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, finding lost children must be especially wonderful. 274 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: The children. A lot of times, if they're autistic anything 275 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: like that, they're not even aware that they're lost. It's 276 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: very heartwarming, gratifying to know that they're safe and back home, 277 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: and the bloodhounds not intimidating. But you know that that's 278 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: the nice thing. In the United States, we have McGrath, 279 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: which is our crime fighter dog and it's a bloodhound. 280 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: So you put that together where there's cartoons and everything 281 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: with McGrath, and it's nice when the dog finds that 282 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: missing child. But I'm still gonna say again reinforcing you know, 283 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: some of the best dogs I've seen. One of the 284 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: best dogs truly was a Melwaw, one of the best 285 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: trailing dogs I saw. So I always have to go 286 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: back to it's more about being sent specific and training 287 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: with that and that drive of that dog been necessarily 288 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: the breed. Even though we've been successful with that breed, 289 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: it still goes down to that dog's dry that determines everything, 290 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: because you know, just because you see a bloodhound, I've 291 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: seen some that just want a hacking chair and hang out. 292 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: So it really goes back to that dog's drive. That 293 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: is number one. If I have that, we are. 294 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 2: Set because all dogs, virtually all dogs have the wonderful nose, 295 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: the old factory senses that can be used to trail, 296 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: you know, pick up sense of anything, trail people, trail animals, 297 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 2: find truffles, do anything. Really providing you can channel that 298 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: ability the way that you can channel it, there is 299 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 2: some differences they're not between bloodhounds and some other breeds. 300 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: The bloodhound is specifically a scent animal and will not 301 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: be distracted by seeing something. Is that true. 302 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, we do use the bloodhounds more in the States 303 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: because we have noticed some of our other dogs will 304 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: go visual when they see somebody running, compared to if 305 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: the bloodhound's down, their noses down, they're tracking, They're focused 306 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: on that track and that's the only thing that they 307 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: care about. And we've seen where they can go a 308 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: little bit of a longer distance and a little bit 309 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: on an more of an age trail. But once again, 310 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: it still goes by the dark foundation. It is the 311 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: dark trained for since specific that is the foundation of 312 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: the training. 313 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: Kobe, You've worked in the shop end of policing. You've 314 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: worked on homicides, assisting the coroner's office at Riverside County, 315 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: which of course is out of Los Angeles. It's a 316 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: very big, busy place. There's plenty of crime, plenty of murders. 317 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 2: Over here in little Old Australia. We've had our share 318 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: of crime recently. One of the more notorious incidents of 319 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: the last year is that an offender shot dead two 320 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: policemen to police officers who were attempting to arrest him 321 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: up in a mountainous country district, not unlike your Oregon, 322 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: to be honest, very similar, high mountain snow, all that stuff. 323 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: This offender, having allegedly shot to police officers dead and 324 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: wounding a third, bolted into the bush, into the woods 325 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: as you might say, and vanished. And although there was 326 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: a massive search conducted by hundreds of officers, helicopters, all 327 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: the technology over many weeks after that, they did not 328 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: find any sight of him. Now I think they're now 329 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: satisfied that probably he has taken his own life, but 330 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: they have never been able to find his body, and 331 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: I think with every passing day it becomes less likely 332 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 2: that they will find his body. Taken those circumstances as 333 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: I've of at London, this was in late winter hea 334 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 2: last August, so it was cool, it was damp, it 335 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: was up in the hills. If someone like yourself with 336 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: your dog or dog's hounds had been called into that 337 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: scene that same day. This happened at ten thirty in 338 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: the morning, if you'd turned up there mid afternoon that day, 339 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: what is it do you think a good track of 340 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: dog could have done? At that scene. 341 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not familiar with the case, no, and I 342 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: was not there. The first thing I would have done 343 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: is looked around to see if I could find a 344 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: shoe track or a sin it down that belonged to 345 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: the suspect, and as our agency deploys, would have been 346 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: one of the first resources out there so the scene 347 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: isn't trampled on, so that the scent is preserved, and 348 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: try to locate the trail leaving that scene and give 349 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: direction of travels so that we could put drones or 350 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: helicopter or something in the direction from that scene to 351 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: leap frog and be ahead of us. And our ultimate 352 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: goal is to track locating the subject. If the subject 353 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: got in a car, we would have been done. We 354 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: can't track behind the car, but we could least still 355 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: give direction to travel and know if a car west 356 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: park therea we could give you the area where the 357 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: tire tracks are or other evidence. You just don't know. 358 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: But it is a tool, just one more tool to 359 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: be used. But it has to be one of the 360 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: first tools. It cannot be days later. It can't, it 361 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: would not work at all. It's just one more resource 362 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: to be called upon. 363 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 2: It's seems that over here. We throw everything at it 364 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 2: except dogs, because we don't really have the dogs that 365 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: are good enough to trial anybody much the more general 366 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: purpose dogs, and they tend to be attack dogs. What 367 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: they do do after about a month usually is bring 368 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: in cadava dogs to see if they can find a body, 369 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: and they do have those here by then you know, 370 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: it's all a bit late to be catching anyone alive 371 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: and kicking. But as you explain it, you could at 372 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 2: least point investigators towards one sector to look at and 373 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 2: eliminate others. You could say, well, this scent went in 374 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: that direction, up that track and headed due north or 375 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: whatever it might be, and it didn't go southeast or west. 376 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: This is what you can do at a crime scene, 377 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: or your dogs can do all. 378 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: That's our goal. Now, it's how we deploy them. We 379 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: don't always need the finish. We need them to do 380 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the trail. Sometimes it's just to locate evidence. Sometimes it's 381 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: just direction of travel, and if the dog is locked 382 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: on the trail, we'll keep going. But we do so 383 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: resources up ahead above the dog because it is that 384 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: team work. 385 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: Yep. Another case, it's a real case, two years ago 386 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: exactly a woman here in a provincial city, on the 387 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: outskirts of a provincial city, went for a jog on 388 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: a Sunday morning into the countryside. She did not come home. 389 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: She vanished. No one knew what, No one knew really 390 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: where she was or where she'd gone exactly. The searches 391 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: were mounted for her, but not using any sort of 392 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: track of dogs, because again we don't really have them, 393 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 2: and if they do exist, they don't use them. There 394 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: are volunteer dogs, but the police choose not to use them. 395 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: So you know, dozens and hundreds of people go looking 396 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: and tracking through the bush and creating five hundred different 397 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: scent trails, and they found precisely nothing. Again, hypothetically, had 398 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: one of your dogs and handle have been brought into 399 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: that scene on that same Sunday morning, this lady goes 400 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: missing at seven am. If a dog had got there 401 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: by eleven or twelve that day, what scenario could have unfolded. 402 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 2: The woman's husband could say, well, she always ran that 403 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: way down that road and this is a pair of 404 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: her shoes, so he's a scent A hound could do 405 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: what in those circumstances, Well. 406 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: There's a couple of hurdles there. One of course is 407 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: making sure the syn item is good because even as 408 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: you said, the husband gave the syn items something like 409 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,239 Speaker 1: that as an example, it's now contaminated. So we do 410 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: always try to find a sn item that is the 411 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: individual solely. 412 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: That's a given that we're looking for yep, of course. 413 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, and not as many people searching and looking 414 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: because as you said, it disrupts the scene. 415 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: Yep. 416 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: So if we had a good scent item, we do 417 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: try to track the freshest track leaving the scene. Do 418 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: you remember if she continuously runs in this area and 419 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: does various turns from a track, the dog has a 420 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: difficult time because it's specific. So it's what I always say. 421 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: If you're at home and you're leaving your home, you 422 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: go and you check your mouth, you go to your car, 423 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: you go to your neighbors, you're leaving trails all different locations, 424 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: and it's very difficult for the dog. Compared to we've 425 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: been more successful when it's a suspect breaks into a 426 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: home and flees. We have one scent, then one sent in, 427 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: one sent out. It's not contaminated. So if she was 428 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: running in an area that she doesn't run all the time, 429 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: or runs a different path, it's easier for the dog. 430 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: But either way, we have had cases like that. We 431 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: did have one down in San Diego, California, and we 432 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: did use the trailing dogs. It's how quick can you 433 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: call upon the dark? That's number one, sooner the batter, 434 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: and that's sen item and no matter why, you have 435 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: nothing to lose if you call upon right away, and 436 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: if that dark can help it, there's no negative to it. 437 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: That's a very interesting point you make about contamination of 438 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: the sense. If someone's running in the same area continually, 439 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: I guess if they weren't running daily, it might be 440 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: easier because the older sense would have faded a little, I imagine, 441 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: But the dog presumably would be able to stop at 442 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 2: the point at which the scent stops. The beauty of 443 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: the dog stopping at a particular point, I imagine is 444 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: that then expert forensic officers can look at that small area, 445 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: a relatively tiny area, and look for signs of a struggle, 446 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: look for drops of blood, look for fragments of clothing, 447 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: and perhaps even tire marks or something like that. 448 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: I would already assume that the agency already did those things. 449 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: I really do that you have a missing runner those things. 450 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: I guarantee they were already looking for those resources and 451 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: evidence to corroborate that. But we would still in our 452 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: area if we don't know for sure, we do still 453 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: call the dogs, because once again we have nothing to lose, 454 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: to call the dog and to see what we can get. 455 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: Yes, good point. In another case, here, very recent case, 456 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 2: a small boy light last year, a small boy on 457 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: an outback sheep station. Now, this is a vast area 458 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: of many square miles of empty country. It's fairly very 459 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 2: dry and sparse. There's no trees. There's just rocks and 460 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: sand and a few shrubs and salt bush, the sort 461 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: of territory that you would have in the States, perhaps 462 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: in Arizona maybe. And this little boy, four year old boy, 463 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: he vanished from his family's sheep station or sheep ranch 464 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: as you might call it. And for many weeks they 465 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time and effort searching a vast 466 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: area looking for this child, without really knowing him what 467 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: direction he might have gone, if indeed he had gone anywhere. 468 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: Could a scent dog have done anything in that situation 469 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: to guide the search by perhaps showing that child's scent 470 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: was not outside the perimeter of the garden, not even 471 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: outside the perimeter of the farmyard. Is that a real thing? 472 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: Or am I just get up there? 473 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: Well, there's a couple of things. One, it depends on 474 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: the temperature that that environment is going to be. Number 475 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: one when it comes to the dog. If it's too 476 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: hot and there's extreme weather, wind, heavy wind, anything, because 477 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that area, that would definitely not allow 478 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: a dog to work. We have used dogs to see 479 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: if a person's been within a perimeter or exited a perimeter, 480 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: so that we don't keep resources up on that perimeter 481 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: thinking that the subject's still inside. If the dog breaks it, 482 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: then we know that the person's not in that perimeter. 483 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: If a dog doesn't leave, then we know to call 484 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: in other like area search dogs, or we'll call in 485 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: other dogs that can pinpoint. So we do use multiple 486 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: discipline dogs working together. We even do that with apprehension dogs. 487 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: If we're thrilling somebody armed, we'll use a patrol dog 488 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: behind our hound because they have two different jobs, so 489 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: it's the same thing. In a search area, we will 490 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: try to use the hound to give us direction to 491 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: travel or let us know if that person is still 492 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: within or exit it a perimeter and then we'll use 493 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: the other dogs to pinpoint. 494 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: Ah, that is very interesting. And when you say an 495 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: area search dog, these are the dogs that can sniff 496 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: the air around them at head heart and soon deduce 497 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: whether the target person target scent is anywhere in that 498 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: area that can quickly eliminatee rather large search area. Is 499 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: that right correct? 500 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: So we'll use the dog to tell us where to search. 501 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: So for example, that one where I had the kidnapp 502 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: being and I had a proximity alert that my person 503 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: was right there, while the hound cauldnot source it. The 504 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: person was buried. It was a the person was deceased. 505 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: The dog did not know how to pinpoint, so we 506 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: had to use a dog trade for that skill. So 507 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: we work together and that I think that's the key 508 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: to solving anything is using the resources of what dog 509 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: is best for that environment. But we will use a 510 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: dog to tell us a trailing dog that's sent specific 511 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 1: to tell us where to deploy the other resources. 512 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: Right now, doctor captain, you've got a lot of honorifics. 513 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: It's wonderful. What is your doctorate in? 514 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: As a matter of interest, organizational leadership? I focused on 515 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: officer stressors and lowering those stressors. So with my dissertation 516 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: focused on that, then with my dog background, I now 517 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: work with support canines and using the dogs to help 518 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: victims lower their stress when they come in to report 519 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: a crime or if they've been a victim of an assault. 520 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: Now we use dogs to help with those interviews and 521 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: engagement and imprint them with cortisol odor so that they 522 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: can really help people. So I really enjoy enjoyed that. 523 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: But even yesterday I was training Riverside Counties Trailing Dog 524 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: Team and then today I was working the support canines. AH, 525 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: that a variety. 526 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: So you five years ago, I think you retired from 527 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: active police work to do to go from the shop 528 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: end of police work to the other end, and that 529 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 2: he's producing dogs that help victims, which must be lovely stuff. 530 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: But still they call on you to train dogs for 531 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 2: the shop end. It does speak highly of your ability. 532 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: I'm just appreciative that I'm allowed to go and work 533 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: with the dogs, and I really inspected what all the 534 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: handlers are doing and if I can contribute anything, I'm 535 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: more than willing. So for me, even though retired, it 536 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: is always giving back is what I believe in, because 537 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: crime doesn't stop. Missing people don't stop. Just because you 538 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: retire doesn't mean that I should just be sitting on 539 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: my behind receiving my retirement check. I need to keep contributing. 540 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: Good on you. And if there's one message you gave 541 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 2: us early in the pace, and it's probably worth repeating, 542 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 2: it is that if you can get dogs involved in 543 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: detecting lost people or fugitives or bad people, the main 544 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 2: thing is to get them there quickly, early in the case. 545 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 2: Is that right? 546 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: That's number one. Most of the agencies, the bloodhounds that 547 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: I work with in California, they're full time handlers, and 548 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: that is their job is to be available and to 549 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: be one of the first responders on scene. 550 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 2: Do you find it hard to believe that a country 551 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: like Australia in the anglosphere tuned into what other countries 552 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 2: like America and Canada and so on, what they do, 553 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: that none of our state police forces or our federal 554 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: police appear to have anything like highly trained track of dogs, 555 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 2: specific specialist track of dogs. Is a surprise to you. 556 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, so I can't give an opinion. I 557 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: don't know the dogs that are there, I don't know 558 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: the skill set I truly don't know, so I can't 559 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: give an opinion on that. I am familiar with great 560 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: dog work in Australia, so I don't know about the 561 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: trailing dogs the. 562 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: Dog work in Australia by law enforcement or by other groups. 563 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: I have heard about the law enforcement patrol dogs. Yeah, 564 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: I know a mutual trainer that goes there, and I 565 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: have a respectim and the information he has shared is 566 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: always very impressive. 567 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: Oh that's good. So that we have good police dogs 568 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: here that good at catching bad guys, but not so 569 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: good at finding children. I think perhaps I don't know. 570 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,479 Speaker 1: I have to be fair. I have to be fair 571 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: because I don't. 572 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 2: Know fair enough. We've got a fair idea. There don't 573 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: seem to be any that can find people that are lost, 574 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: which is extraordinary. Really well, this has been a most 575 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 2: illuminating discussion, and we're very lucky to track you down 576 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: so to speak, and to get you to talk to us. 577 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 2: You're very generous. It's quite late where you are and 578 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: you're probably now looking to have your dinner, and so 579 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: we should leave you alone. The listeners of Life and 580 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 2: Crimes here in Melbourne, Australia. I'm sure delighted to hear 581 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 2: from you. Thank you, doctor Kobe Webb, former captain in 582 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 2: the Riverside County Sheriff's Department and one of the pioneers 583 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 2: on the West coast of the USA of using highly 584 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 2: trained bloodhounds to do sophisticated police work. Thank you so much, 585 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a 586 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 2: Sunday Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer 587 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 2: is Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, go 588 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: to Heroldsun dot com dot au, forward slash andrew rule 589 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 2: one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news podcasts sold 590 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: at news dot com dot au. That is all one 591 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: word news podcasts sold And if you want further information 592 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 2: about this episode, links are in the description.